stern lecturing teacher

Lies your teachers told you: open letter to a young woman

Recently, multiple male members of the A Voice for Men (AVfM) staff received the following email. We will accept at face value that Carly is who she says she is. Here is her letter, and below will be my response:

Letter Received: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:35:25 -0800 (PST)

From: Carly M <xxxxxxxxx@yyyyy.com>
To: [Various male members of AVfM staff]
Subject: Thoughts

Hello,

I am an 18 year-old girl from the United States. I came across your
website while I was researching studies done on women’s rights for my
Probability and Statistics class. I was surprised by the statistics posted
on your website. At first glance I expected your website to promote
equality between genders. Instead I realized you are promoting one thing:
men. You seem to believe that everything negative that has been done to you
has been the fault of women. I am sorry. Women and men are both equally
important to society and to life, you seem to have forgotten this. Your
whole website is based on the belief system that men are far superior to
women.

If this is what you believe, then I am sorry. I am sorry on behalf
of all the women in your life. I am also sorry for wasting my time writing
this email, that I expect you will never read. What you do not understand
is that men have had voices since the beginning, however in the last one
hundred years women have just began to be able to speak. Those voices will
not silence now. Women have realized things can be better, and life can be
more fair It is my impression that you believe women plan to “take over the
world” and chastise men until the end of time. Some feminists may have this
idea, however most women want equality. Most people want equality. Tell me,
why should we not deserve equality? I would be very interested to hear the
answer. I do not plan to take over the world, I just want to live in a time
where I can be taken seriously and not objectified. I have a lot of plans
for my future.

I want to work for human rights, I want to help boys and girls
all over the world receive an education. I want to create awareness
about racism and sexism too. I want to reduce the statistic that 30% of
women and 10% of men will be raped or abused in their lifetimes. I have
these plans because I want equality. I expect that you do not take me
seriously. That’s okay, it just means I have a lot of work to do.

I know I cannot change your mind, however I didn’t write this email to
change your mind. I wrote this email because I was struck by the hate
present on your website. Needless to say I was very offended, I hope that
my email is not hateful, just a different point of view for you to
consider. You are correct in demonstarting that there are more than one
side to every argument and statistic. I ask that you do some more research,
though not online. Think. Just think. Think about opportunity. Think about
coexistence. Think about collaboration. Think about a world that is
beautiful for everyone to live in. Think about equality. Change is scary, I
know that, however it cannot be stopped. I also recommend you watch the
film Miss Representation, it is available on Netfilx.

Thank you for your time,

Carly M.

Dear Carly,

The following open letter is written not just to you, but to any young woman who has an open mind and is willing to be challenged on her prejudices.

As a rule, when we get emails or comments like yours, we usually ignore them or just say something rude, because we’ve heard it all before. More times than we can count. You may interpret that as an “angry” response, but really, it’s just exhaustion. There’s nothing in your mail which we haven’t already addressed a thousand times only to have people refuse to listen. The only reason we did not do the same with you is because you say you are 18 years old. This, to me, indicates someone whose mind may still be open.

The older you get, the harder it is for you to accept new information and new views of the world, so I’m hoping that you or others your age will possibly read this and think about it. Not that people who are older can’t change their minds, but the older we get the more closed-minded we tend to get. Life experience and the aging process will do that to you. In fact, if you take away only one message from this entire letter, I hope you hold onto this: that open-mindedness you seem to pride yourself on now? Try hard to keep it as you attempt to understand what I’m saying here and, more importantly, try to hold onto open-mindedness when you start getting up in years. Believe me, the older you get the harder it is to have your mind changed, but it’s always worth being willing to change your mind if facts and perspectives you haven’t heard before come to your attention.

Now, to the substance of your letter: You say you were surprised by the statistics posted on our site. I’m not surprised, since these statistics have been hidden from you, at least up until this point in your young life. They’ve been hidden by people with an ideological and financial interest in keeping you in the dark about them–and by people who are just plain prejudiced and bigoted. If you have specific statistics you want to challenge, let us know and we’ll take a look, but we don’t publish things like that willy-nilly. What we seek, first and foremost, is honest, verifiable information, so if you have something we’ve missed, please let us know.

You did not specify where you got the statistics either; we have multiple articles and pages where you can find statistics. You may want to look at this page, which is a few years old and needs a bit of updating, but, we stand by the substance of that page and we would have to ask you which stats on it you took issue with before commenting further. But I hope you also stop by our Wiki page of primary references, which contains considerably more information which will probably surprise you even more. (We are still looking for volunteers to help update that wiki as it happens, and you and others are welcome to help improve it.)

By the way, when looking at those primary references, please pay attention especially to the references on domestic violence, rape, and something called the Woozle Effect. You will probably get a better education on these issues there than you will almost anywhere else today.

Now, I have to give you a warning: I strongly suspect that not only are the facts we cite generally correct on substance, but your teachers will be most displeased with you if you try to share them. For, while they are all perfectly good references from multiple independent and scientific sources (at least on the Wiki, which is the real go-to page), they tend to run against the grain of what a lot of people talk about when they speak of “women’s rights.” Because they expose common, everyday lies that your teachers tell you. What we find is that people who speak of “women’s rights” are (usually) incredibly lopsided in what they look at, only taking the perspective of looking at where women often get a crap deal, while rarely bothering to look at where men get a crap deal, or only see men’s issues in an “oh yeah, men too” way, or by blaming that mythical beast called “The Patriarchy” for whatever bad befalls men.

And sometimes, they just flat out make things up.

Although you are female, and so you are privileged in this area: men who try to talk about these things are usually personally attacked, and I would expect a boy taking classes with you to get a flunking grade just for having the audacity to present some of this information, at least if he did not come to conclusions that pleased his teachers. Because he’s a boy, and boys aren’t allowed to speak in ways that might upset women or which speak unapologetically about where men get the short end of the stick. But, because you are a girl, maybe you could help shine a light in the darkness and put the truth out there in the face of what are verifiable lies. I hope you’ll think about doing so, anyway.

Anyway, what you have likely been taught by your teachers, possibly your whole life, is that if bad things befall women, it’s because they are oppressed as a class, but, if bad things befall men, it’s just a side-effect of women’s oppression; supposedly, having “male privilege” is great but it has some down sides, and that’s their only answer when a man’s life is destroyed. If you can free your mind from that toxic lie–and a toxic lie is what it is–you might be able to see what’s really going on here. The truth is, the most privileged class of people in the whole wide world are young women living in places like the US, UK, Canada, etc.–and if you want to be treated like an equal, you should not flinch or cry like a little girl if someone tells you that.

You accuse our web site of promoting men. Well, to that we must plead guilty: men have few to no voices speaking about issues that are specific to men, or defending men as a group, in this society. Until very recently in history men never have had such a voice. Because pretty much all civilizations for the last few thousand years have prioritized the needs and desires of women over those of men. For hundreds, even thousands, of years. We aren’t used to seeing men suffering or, if we do, we think it’s either the natural order of things or, worse, ultimately their fault. Men are not viewed as human beings with innate value by this society, and from what I can see, they never have been.

Now as it happens, I think you will find no one on A Voice for Men who disagrees that men and women should have equal rights under the law, and equal opportunity to pursue whatever they want out of life. We just happen to think that women have become, in recent decades, an incredibly pampered, privileged group of people in our society, and that most of the time, it’s men who get the short end of the stick–although that isn’t true everywhere and always, it’s true in far more ways than you probably even suspect.

You say we “seem” to believe everything negative that has been done to us was the fault of women. Well in fact, if you ask me, and most of the others in charge here at AVfM, we don’t believe it’s women who are the primary impediment to the Men’s Human Rights Movement at all. No, the primary impediment is men: getting men to think of themselves as human beings first and not the disposable utility of women is really hard. After all, men have been prioritizing the safety and provisioning of women over their own self-interests for thousands of years. Putting women first has been the priority for so long, most men don’t even know how to think about things any other way.

You say we seem to have forgotten that women and men are both equally important to society. I have no idea why you think that. Women and men are both equally important to society as human beings. Although it does depend on where you look; it’s men who do most of the sacrificing and dying for this society, and men who most frequently have their civil rights stripped from them, and some of us are getting pretty uncomfortable with a world that demands “equality” but then ignores the largest minority in this society: men.

If you’re doing some statistical research, here’s an article with lots of statistics for you to look at written by Janet Bloomfield, one of our senior contributors, on what would happen if all women quit their jobs, versus what would happen if all men quit their jobs. And while you are looking at those statistics–which again, you can verify for yourself, since the references are right there–I would suggest you ask yourself of all the jobs there, which ones most frequently involve loss of life and limb and which ones rarely involve such risks.

If you’re interested in sexual assault by the way, don’t miss Alison Tieman’s Manufacturing Female Victims, Marginalizing Vulnerable Men, which has still more statistics you should look at with a critical eye.

Moving on: You suggest that we believe men are far superior to women. I don’t think anyone I work with believes that, although we do believe men and women tend to have different strengths and weaknesses–and statistics do tend to bear that out too you know. Tell me, are garbage collectors, mostly men, “better” people than hair stylists, mostly women? Are firefighters, mostly men, “better” than lawyers, who these days are mostly women? You will find men and women in very different proportions in those and many other fields, but I don’t think any of those people are better than the others.

You suggest that we “do not understand…that men have had voices since the beginning, however in the last one hundred years women have just begun to speak.”

I had to pause on that, and reflect a while. See, if you were 58 years old, you would have no excuse for believing that horrible lie. But you’re 18, and so, not to put too fine a point on it, you are still a young skull full of mush. You probably not only believe that, but you probably haven’t until now even had anyone question it for you. See, you’ve been lied to your whole life about that, and it probably shocks your sensibilities to have someone call BS.

But I will be straightforward and to the point with you: whoever taught you that was helping to repeat a lie. In fact they told you a horrible, hateful, wicked lie, a lie that is sexist and, also, racist to the core.

And if telling you that hurt your feelings, welcome to the world of equality, where people don’t spare you from harsh truths just because you’re a girl.

If you believe men have silenced women for thousands of years, or that women had no voice for thousands of years, you believe something that just not true. Counterfactual. In error. Furthermore, if you believe that, what you have to believe is that Asian men have been oppressing Asian women for thousands of years, black men have been oppressing black women for thousands of years, European men, Australasian men, and so on, have all been oppressing their women for thousands of years. And those weak women could do nothing about it. So what you believe here isn’t just wrong, it’s racist.

If you believe women have had no voice for thousands of years, you are also spitting in the faces of your grandmothers, your great-grandmothers, your great-great grandmothers, and virtually all the women of history. And you’re spitting in those men’s faces too. You are at once making out women to have always been weak, spineless, craven little creatures who never had the strength or courage to rebel against their oppressors… and you are making the men in their lives, their fathers, brothers, and sons, out to have been monsters.

Seriously, it’s only because you’re only 18 that I’m not calling you a bigot and telling you to go to Hell. But I will tell you, without apology, that your teachers are bigots, and I will ask you to give them a great big “screw you, you for abusing your authority by teaching lying propaganda to young people like this” for me. No seriously. Please do quote me. Screw them. They lied to you, and their lies are toxic.

Here’s the truth of history: women have always had a voice, and not only their own voices but the voices of men who have, as a group, collectively made a habit of putting women’s needs and desires first and foremost above their own. For most of history, being female was a privilege. It carried certain special rights that only applied to women, and special responsibilities that only applied to women, and through most of history, being male was a burden, a burden which carried certain rights that only applied to men, and those rights were there mostly so they could discharge their duties to women properly.

For at least a thousand years, if not longer, the march of history has been characterized by putting women’s needs and even their feelings ahead of the needs of men and boys. And what we do here represents a serious challenge to those unequal privileges women have always enjoyed, but which have become even more extreme over the last generation as women have been given more rights with fewer responsibilities, leaving the burden of women’s needs and desires even greater on men.

There is a classic essay on this subject that you may want to read and/or listen to. It’s by our good friend and contributing editor Karen Straughan: Feminism and the Disposable Male. If listening to a man tell you these things is hard for you, maybe you’ll have an easier time hearing them from a woman.

Finally, you suggest I watch a movie called “Miss Representation.” While I’m already pretty sure I’m familiar with everything in that movie, having studied these issues for longer than you’ve been alive, I’ll make you a deal: I will watch “Miss Representation” if you will watch this little movie: Interview with Erin Pizzey. There’s a transcript and references you can check, and if you’ll promise to watch it and think about it, I’ll watch your suggested movie. I suspect my movie will challenge you a great deal, but it may also make you a better person. Erin is also, by the way, not only someone who will challenge you on your beliefs, but has since joined the staff here at A Voice for Men, as so many other women have.

It is a little strange, by the way, that you only wrote to men who work on this site, and not any of the women. Maybe you didn’t notice the women, which is kind of common: people seem to be very uncomfortable at the notion that women might speak forthrightly about the concerns of men and boys without putting them at the back of women’s bus. If hearing a woman’s voice is what you want, please note that in this article I have just linked you to three different articles written by three different women, and an extensive interview with a very important female historical figure, who are all part of the team that makes this site work. If you won’t hear a man’s voice, perhaps you’ll hear those women’s voices on these issues.

In closing, I’ll note one more thing: you may occasionally see angry remarks or articles on this site. What I would hope you would do with that, when you do see it, is contemplate that there is a difference between righteous anger at real injustice, and what you seem to have misinterpreted as hate–once again, Erin Pizzey has some things that might help you understand the difference. It’s something to think about, anyway.

What we are here at A Voice for Men is a group men and women who believe in equal rights under the law for everybody, for the same human rights to be granted to everybody, with reasonable equity for all. These should not be radical concepts, but for some reason these days they are.

I for one hope that one day, you’ll be open-minded enough to join us.

Peace.

About Dean Esmay

AVfM Managing Editor Dean Esmay co-hosts AVfM Radio's Revelations with Erin Pizzey and Tales from the Infrared. He also writes about numerous topics on Dean's World and The Moderate Voice. He encourages people to look at issues through the lens of compassion for men who deserve it, and respect for women who deserve it. He is the author of the critically-acclaimed novel Methuselah's Daughter.

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  • justman

    Awesome article, Dean. This was exactly the response needed to misguided young women everywhere. I gather the specific young woman in question also received this as a personal email in response to the one that she sent.

    I also hope she will join the good fight some day.

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      I sent her the link.

      • http://womenandmenlivingtogether.blogspot.ca/ joewilson

        Dean, that was so complete and handled with superb tact! I was wondering if the girl ever responded back?

        If she’s reading this I hope your response has at least driven her to look critically into the data/facts. I recently sent a feminist a “thank you” on a video on her channel where she incredibly saw a double standard against men and had the balls to voice her opinion. I stated I was an MRA but thought her video was a positive step towards true equality for both genders. She was really taken back at the fact that an MRA would give her a compliment….and she had some nice things to say. She was also a young 20 year old girl but I helped (at least I hope) dispel a misconceived notion that MRAs are some women-hating jerks who are driven by factless pursuits. I’ll bet many (if not most feminist) have had the wool pulled over their eyes. As you get older and invest more into the feminist agenda it becomes exponentially more difficult over time to accept challenges to your convictions.

        So if you are that girl who wrote the letter and you’re reading this – you stand to make the biggest contribution to TRUE GENDER EQUALITY – by taking a true unbiased examination of this men’s movement. I really believe that over the years feminism and their approach, which deliberately excluded men (perhaps by design) and led to the current double standard has had an incredible negative impact. By allowing men “in on the true gender equality movement” men and women can work together. The synergistic alliance with both genders can then move (together) to tackle other parts of the globe where real women issues exist.

        Peace!!

    • petes

      “I want to work for human rights, I want to help boys and girls
      all over the world receive an education. I want to create awareness
      about racism and sexism too.”

      Lady! We need people to work on space systems to take us to the outer planets. We need real star ships to take us to the worlds Nasa and the ESA are discovering. We need quantum computers to solve the intractable computational problems that are behind the internet. We need strong AI.

      We need hard technology workers and research scientists and engineers to allow us to live in the universe as it exists.

      Lady, what we don’t need are more social workers.

      • strix (David King)

        Lady, what we don’t need are more social workers.

        I disagree. All of the things you mention are important, but we also need people to protect the vulnerable — which includes boys — and help the emotionally injured onto the path of recovery.

        Social work and psychotherapy are critically important occupations. The problem is the corruption of especially social work, which has been coöpted by gender ideologues who prosecute their agenda, instead of actually helping those who are hurting.

        • petes

          I understand what you are saying and I am in complete agreement.

          My bone to pick with social work as it has become today in our society is that it has become a racket, in the Smedley D. Butler sense. I have indeed met a few truly caring professionals in the field and I have every respect for them, just as I do for any true professional that puts their responsibilities behind personal need.

          But social work as a whole is polluted. It’s a scam ripping off society and individuals. There are exceptions but those exceptions are the ones that prove the rule.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/MrShadowfax42 John Ridgeway

    Damn, Dean, you’re good at this sort of thing.

  • nick

    Great response Dean! Well done!

  • MGHOW_AU

    Great work Dean! Possibly your most powerful article yet!!! Engrossing!

  • ManUpManDown.

    “No, the primary impediment is men: getting men to think of themselves as human beings first and not the disposable utility of women is really hard. After all, men have been prioritizing the safety and provisioning of women over their own self-interests for thousands of years. Putting women first has been the priority for so long, most men don’t even know how to think about things any other way.”

    Perfect.

  • MGTOW-man

    Did the writer of her letter get a personal copy of this superb and true answer? We need to make sure she actualy reads it. It might not do any good because she and women like her WANT to believe something else—something they were pumped full of.

    Their feelings are controlling them: logic and objectivity must be rare there, NO?

    I have to say the things you told her and all women who grossly misunderstand here, are spot-on truth. But most women apparently do not see the world like men do; thus it will be in one ear and out the other even faster.

    The two brains, more or less, were meant to be different for good reasons of our species’ best interest. Sex-specific research proves it beyond any shadow of doubt—no way out of it either.

    I know women can have just as much agency as males but they are less inclined to use it for natural reasons as well as reinforced by societal ways. I hate to be pessimistic, but I am afraid that most women will not understand the truth you speak because it isn’t what they WANT to believe and what they have been told for untold centuries.

    Feminism is the exploitation of the natural world and the natural dynamics between men and women. This is so prevalent that actually because of that very thing, most women will not understand the truth. Then men falter as a result.

    We really do have our work cut out for us. With all the profound and provable logic and truth we have handy for all the world to see, the only way it is possible for it to not have taken hold by now is because there must be a mental block or feelings-blockade (In the female population as a whole) of the very things we know to be true.

    They can’t see because they can’t see.

    In short, she won’t “get it”, because she doesn’t want to! Feelings rule her and many other women. They apparently must be blinded by how they feel; objective rationality must mean nothing to them at all!

    This is why it is so hard to get through to them.

    Women were handed political power too, to go with the awesome powers they, as women, already had over men, without us first taking other very important and impacting dynamics into consideration FIRST.

    This is what the men of yesteryear have unleashed. Who couldn’t have seen this coming?

    In fact, I think many men AND WOMEN did.

    So, what happened?

    • https://www.youtube.com/user/KopperNeoman Christopher Wedge

      Only time will tell if she wants to or not. Attacking someone will only make them get defensive, when they might have otherwise listened.

      If the “nature” of men to apparently render themselves disposable for female convenience were inescapable (or even instinctive – but even if it is, culture can and will override that instinct. Just ask self-defence teachers about replacing stupid human instinct with smart human training.) then nobody would be here. Full stop.

      Same, if the “nature” of women to not care about men (pretty easy to ingrain something into culture if you can threaten those you don’t like with death, and even terrify the police into inaction on top of an already gynocentric foundation, then steal money from government intended for good works) that’d be a pretty poor evolutionary combo that’d result in all the protectors simply dying because their charges didn’t even warn them of that saber-tooth.

      Yeah, she might be an enemy trying to be “nice” as if that was a novel tactic, or she could genuinely be reeling with questions. And would it hurt you (or us) to humour her in the former case?

    • Fredrik

      @MGTOW-man: “So, what happened?”

      Ernest Belfort Bax predicted the gynarchy, but he couldn’t explain why everyone around him was parroting what they were told about women’s oppression against the evidence of their own eyes, and he was there. Thankfully, we have Alison Tieman. In retrospect, the best explanation is that they all wanted to be The One Good Man.

    • Redfield

      The average male brain has six times the grey matter of a female brain, the average female brain has ten times the white matter of a male brain, females have a tendency to think more globally and men more localised … Men and women clearly are different … But which one is superior? Being my age I can remember growing up in a predominantly white culture, we actually had a policy called the white Australia policy! I can also remember viewing people of another race with suspicion … It was my lack of experience and what I was taught about other cultures in school, and the then apparent superiority of the white Anglo culture, living in brick and concrete and the rest of the world in mud and grass!

      So as our culture moved forward Australia has the most culturally diverse society of any on this planet! We have much to be proud of in 30-40 years of development!

      My point is when I viewed other cultures back then I did not see individuals and their potential, I saw people of varying cultures as a collective, connected by their then particular circumstances and not their potential as people!. I could tell you about the infant mortality rate in the congo from my georgraphy class! The demographic stats seemed to give me all I needed to understand about people! My belief system was flawed, I was viewing people as group of outcomes, not their potential as human beings! My vision was myopic!

      And as this young women must realise you can view rape culture stats as 1 in 3, what is this saying about how you “globally” view men? When you see articles accusing men of beating their wives and don’t see the counter statistics of women beating their husbands how does that affect how you “globally” think of men? Do you see men as individuals or linked together by a tether of false and misleading information that says we are all potential rapists, reptilian brained and haven’t got the emotional smarts to satisfy a woman intellectually or emotionally? Tell me Carly are we a collective of negative stereotypes or do you see men individually through their potential as human beings? Who do you think has the more superior brain? All feminists would have the answer for that one, it is just the same as the “White Australia Policy!” Please keep an alternative view, it will enrich your world, as multi-culturalism enriched mine …

      Dean Esmay gave this young woman the best response to her questions I would ever hope to see … and just a ya to Erin Pizzey, you are a good and great piece of work (positive sense) Erin, I would hate to elevate you to hero status (so much pressure) but you are my hero …

  • droobles

    Another great video for her to understand what equality really means is to show the nordic paradox, equality is freedom of choice and not guarantee of outcome.

    Just the other day I saw a little girl, maybe age 8, on tv in a cooking show. The host was male and he inspired her to pursue that professional career. What I mean is, to inspire people to pursue something we just need role models, whoever they may be. We don’t need a woman to be president to inspire girls to be president, what we need are good presidents. Well, my two cents anyway.

  • Fredrik

    That. Was. Awesome. I hesitate to ask, because it’s like asking about something you don’t understand in a masterpiece painting, but how is it racism to think the same of all races? I’m trying to come up with my own answer, and it seems to be hovering just out of reach.

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      A privileged white girl (I assume Carly’s white, with about 90% certainty) telling people of color how their culture works is the height of arrogance and is an implicit and inescapable racial prejudice.

      Go, as a black person, into a hispanic neighborhood and start lecturing them on how the damn Mexicans have been oppressing their women for thousands of years, that their grandmothers were slaves to their grandfathers, who treated them like cattle. See how well that flies for you.

      Compare your own experiences as a white female to that of black male slaves in the old South. See how that flies while you’re at it.

      “Patriarchy Theory” is racist at its core. Even more explicitly racist is the “Kyriarchy theory” which, if you haven’t heard of it, is just Patriarchy Theory dressed up to assign specific Privilege Values to each race.

      • Fredrik

        Thank you, I was afraid it would be one of those things that seem obvious after the explanation, and I was right. ;)

      • upheaval

        Er…… As the Brits would say, I’m afraid Dean seems to be ‘chatting shit’ here.

        Her claim that men have always had a voice while women haven’t, is clearly a reference to all men. Regardless of skin color.

        It’s still a farcical position of course, but your attempt to paint her as a racist for such a comment is bemusing, and reeks of contemptible mainstream race-baiting.

        Also, as MRA’s, I really don’t think we should be embracing the increasingly popular concept of ‘priviledge’. It’s a feminist concoction, often used to generate self-hate among people unfortunate enough to be born a certain color, or with certain genitalia.

        Just some thoughts.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com August Løvenskiolds

          I “embrace” the rhetoric of “privilege” only to the extent that I can bounce their bullshit back all over them, to demonstrate how “privilege”-talk leads to ludicrous results.

          When they throw a grenade, catch it, and toss it back, even if you think grenades are wrong.

          • MGTOW-man

            Thank you.

            I have said that even if we have problems with fighting fire with fire, if we want to win, why not “throw the grenades” anyway.

            IOW, if we find a box of “grenades” (intended only as a metaphor for discussion) with a label of “feminist property”, do we become satisfied with only destroying the ammo on grounds that we will not “lower” ourselves to fight like they fight, or do we collect them damned things up and hurl them at specific targets?

            If you want to win, you do what it takes to win—short of violence. But if they violence us first, we have a right to self-defense by use of the same very tactics.

            Just FMI, but how did you come up with the “grenades” in your truthful analysis of how to fight if you have to?

        • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

          I’m not fond of the word “privilege,” but I can’t think of a better word to describe the status (relative to males) of North American, Australian and Western European women and girls.

          • upheaval

            @ August & Susan, I hear you.

            I just think that once we accept the term in our lexicon, debates with feminists will evolve into a ‘who has more privilege’ slugfest, as opposed to anything productive.

            In essence, we’ll be giving validation to a term of questionable merit, as opposed to immediately discrediting it.

            P.S. I still think Dean’s accusations of racism are ridiculous.

          • Fredrik

            @upheaval: “P.S. I still think Dean’s accusations of racism are ridiculous.”

            My interpretation is that Dean is saying that Patriarchy Theory amounts to going in and whitesplaining to other cultures how they’ve all oppressed their women. Taken on the same level of argumentation as Patriarchy Theory, he absolutely demolishes it. It is a completely different question whether that level of argumentation is valid in the first place.

          • Bewildered

            @Suz

            Right ho!! But yet they are the ones who whine and whinge the most and will call you a misogynist for pointing out this fact !

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          Most ideological feminism is a concoction of privileged white women who pretended their struggle was the same as blacks fighting for their civil rights 60+ years ago. I’ve also spent a lot of time around white supremacists and you might be surprised at how fast they are to claim that Arabs, blacks, and other racial groups treat their women like garbage.

          Ceding words like “privilege” and “bigotry” and “prejudice” and “racist” to the Social Justice Warriors is stupid. Use these words properly, and your communications are clear. Denying these things exist at all allows them to own the discourse on them, so they can say really dumb things like white boys are privileged over black girls–even though the white boy can be literally homeless and starving, and the black girl could be daughter of the President of the United States.

          The problem here isn’t with the use of the word privilege, it’s twisting of the word and using it in despicable ways.

          As for the concern that if we accept usage of these words we will go into some “slippery slope” of arguing over who’s the least privileged: bollox. Use the words properly and force your opponents to do the same, or tangle them up in their own contradictions. Refuse to use them, deny they exist, and you have already started the battle with one arm tied behind your back.

          • upheaval

            Still don’t agree, and I think your references to white supremacy & black men vs. white women oppression are ultimately unhelpful, seeing as her email didn’t even implicitly touch on those themes.

            If she had said ‘minority groups have always treated ”their women” like shit’, then you’d certainly have a case when accusing her of racism.

            But she didn’t. She simply (and stupidly) claimed that ALL men have always had voices & all women haven’t.

            And that claim, when taken by itself, isn’t remotely racist. How can you not see that?

            And I only questioned the usefulness of ‘privilege’ as a concept. I never delegitimized the terms ‘prejudice’, ‘racist’ or ‘bigotry’ so please be intellectually honest.

          • MGTOW-man

            Yep!

            And one better. It is people like you Dean, that should lead the feminists into a debate. You would devour them.

            They know this too, thus, they will never debate you/us.

            They can claim the bogus excuse that “debating us would legitimize our quest to see if the feminists movement is justified” all they want, but we see through that heap of lies because with time, ALL things need reevaluating, in which women/feminists are not auto-exempt from scrutiny, and rightly not.

            Besides, who is to say that in the form it has taken historically, that it was indeed EVER justified? All this meanness directed at men for what nature did, is justified !@#$%^&*!!.

          • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

            Uhpeaval: Well we’ll just have to agree to disagree; I think the ideological feminist notion that women had no voices until recently is entirely a bit of privileged whitegirlsplaining to people of other cutlures. It’s the height of arrogance, and just because a few women of color have bought into this lie, out of their own convenience, doesn’t change its pedigree.

            And you’re right, you didn’t mention the other words. I just meant to use them all, including “privilege,” as words we shouldn’t be in the least bit afraid to use. I stand by my view that refusing to use these words, and use them honestly and accurately, is important. Refusing to use them is to automatically cede control of that discourse. Privilege exists. What’s hateful is the ideological feminist notion of privilege.

          • strix (David King)

            @upheaval, @dean,

            Privilege exists.

            Self-evidently, and women have a great deal of it. Men have privilege, too, though not as much as feminists insist we do.

            I have seen the more enlightened feminists admit that they have privilege, and tie themselves up in knots trying to check it, all the while maintaining the feminist line of oppression.

        • hatredisfoolish

          I’m a Brit and I’ve never heard of anyone ‘chatting shit’. However, you could try – as Dean has suggested – “talking bollocks”. That might work.

          • upheaval

            Haha. I schooled in England for about a decade.

            ‘Talking bollocks’ is a far more posh, “proper’, and old-school version of ‘chatting shit’.

            But they’re both undeniably English slangs.

  • captive

    More nonsense from feminist cult members believing that women are oppressed in the current era. How sickening it is that she considers it hate to say something in favor of men – it shows how indoctrinated to hate equality feminists actually are.

    I don’t know what more evidence she would need than this:

    • Kimski

      Still not able to watch that one without getting seriously pissed. Not really sure how many times I’ve tried so far, but it still manages to get me up in the red light area.
      Apparently the use of violence is okay, when it is based on what you _think_ might have happened, and cheating seems to be the big winner here. Imagine if the genders were reversed on this nowadays.
      Is it any wonder that female on male initiation of violence far outweigh the contrary, when males are generally perceived as inherently ‘bad’ in women’s mind, and hitting your partner is seen as a viable solution to that?
      Especially considering that some women had no problem with cheating on another woman to get the guy in the first place.

  • http://starsdie7.wordpress.com/ StarsDie

    You’re quite the diplomat Dean. Excellent reply.

  • aewehr

    You need to keep in mind your audience.

    The center of your article becomes dogmatic and repetitive without adding substance for about 3 paragraphs.

    I work in a detail-oriented profession and even I was beginning to wonder when that section would end. I suspect if this person is browsing this article they stopped reading there.

    They are, after all, in their teens and not overly receptive to your point of view in the first place.

    Concision is important.

    • joebspi

      I did notice a couple of sentences in Dean’s reply that also struck me as being a little repetitive. However as long as a person reads the totality of his message, it reads as a very thoughtful and effective reply. It was generally very polite and made reference to quite a few of the issues that men are concerned with. It contained many links to statistics that Carly would probably have never have seen before due to the overwhelming misinformation that is out there.

      Tell a lie enough times and it eventually becomes perceived as the truth. And your perception is your reality. It is up to us to read a variety of sources to make sure that what we are being told is verified by “reputable” sources. What questions were used to arrive at the end results? Remember that most of the studies and research that is conducted have to be paid for by someone. And that someone probably already has an agenda or a preconceived notion of the outcome that they want to see. And as with everything else in nature. it follows the path of least resistance. Read all of these studies with a skeptical eye including the ones that both support and deny your point of view. Make your decisions from there.

      It would be nice to think that Carly would read Dean’s reply, and even nicer to think that she would read it with an open mind, but the chances are indeed slim. One of studies that depresses me the most is the study from Laurie Goodman and Stephanie Rudman about bias.

      http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/87/4/494/

      How can we ever be heard if the prevailing bias keeps someone from listening? Because of this bias, it is good that Dean sourced some of the writings from Alison, Karen, and Erin as she might be more prone to listen to them. So even if Carly does not read Dean’s reply, it is still out there now. And hopefully it can get a fair hearing from some other blue bill person who just happens by it.

      And to Carly. Sometimes the words here may sound a bit angry. But that is because people here are upset that issues concerning men and boys are falling on deaf ears. And sometime if no one hears you, you end up shouting a little louder. Therefore is it not righteous anger? And yes this site is promoting men. It is one of the few sites out here in which men have a voice without being shouted down or demonized by blue pill people. There are so many sites that promote women and women’s issues. Why cant we have one that promotes men and men’s issues?

      I apologize for any typos and improper grammar.

      • MGTOW-man

        Great comment. One can tell you have really thought about this matter.

        I try to be correct with my grammar and punctuation too but find it not as important as it would be if I were writing an article for publication. Practice makes perfect, but gosh, with all there is to respond to and do here on the net, one would take up ALL their time being TOO correct, you know? Most people know that and are thus, forgiving.

        I thought Dean did great too. But I also like your response to Carly as well. SHE might not read it but another like her might…. We must settle on the importance of them reading our responses no matter if it helps them or not.

        However, if it does get read, since they/she does not WANT to believe the truth spoken here and by Dean…SHE WON’T.

        It really IS that simple!

        This explains why with our side having so much proof, validity, and irrefutable substance to support the main tenants of what we are about, that our issues have fell on deaf ears. They do not want it to be true, even though it IS truth. But since their FEELINGS, (both obvious and hidden, individual and collective, aware and unaware) have made them biased— in ways that females must be more adept at manifestation/control (apparently)—then trying to get them to see the truth as it exists in reality—NOT in their “perceptions” of it…the two are not the same—is well, futile.

        Thus, feminism! …with stubbornness saturating the arena! This is in essence, what we are fighting…the increased affinity for subjectivity in women with the men competing for them to the point of going along with whatever feminists/women say. And those who actually believe the feminists? They are just duped! No other way to put that.

        The subjectivity out there and not only that, but the celebration of it is so plentiful in this “modern” world…as if it is better than objectivity as much as can be humanly obtained—which has to be the reference, or else WHOSE subjectivity do we embrace? …and why?

        This is why I like science. My background is in science. Not the pseudo-feelings-gratification-manifestation “biased-helping’ type of “science” (corrupted sociology/psychology…Come on—“peer reviewed” ?!@#$%!!?, that’s ALL?!!?), but the hard stuff that would make a feminist blush—that is, if she could manage the honesty enough to hold her head up high and let us see it.

        Having said this, there is nothing more objective than that of non-manipulated nature. The actual truth spins from there. Or else, WHOSE something-other-than-objective-nature do we support? How fair is that choice and how can it not be subjective?

        But since science—truthful reflections as it objectively does very well— is not parroting the intellectual dishonesty-laced propaganda that women ‘need” to FEEL in order to be “fully human” (blah. blah, blah)..then, since they do not WANT to believe it, they WON”T. That sizes things up correctly.

        The outright rejection of sex-specific research that proves the two relative brains (not “JUST” the bodies) are different and complimentary when in context, proves me correct.

        But instead, I supposedly “hate” women! They do not realize it but claiming that I hate women is saying the truth is hatred—which is about the most stupid projection-laced comment possible. They FEEL I hate, but I do not!

        Honesty and truth is not hatred, but Carly will not likely understand—because she can’t!.

        All women are not our enemy, but we know who the ones that are. How better to explain how feminism gets by with doing what it does? We need to know our enemy and well…or else we will never win. And if they are our enemies, it is of their own volition. For science shuts them down… if they could just turn lose of their overpowering feelings/perspectives.

        Subjective or objective? Which is most popular? Which politicians will be elected? Which….

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      I always keep in mind my audience.

      If you would specify where you feel it starts to get repetitive I can contemplate it, although as a matter of style I generally find repetition is often an effective tool for driving the most important points home.

      • aewehr

        To be very specific, the following sentences are heavy on admonition, assertion,(and emotion) and low on substantiation (mind you, this person is not familiar with the path taken to these conclusions). It’s very impactful, but goes on at length before providing even the most basic backing to those assertions, and even I’m feeling the “wrong impact” from it, and I’m in general agreement with the content of this site, even consider some of the articles “too soft”.

        The word count could easily be reduced 70% and more logic and citations added to bring it down to emotional earth. Keep in mind you’re dealing with a teenager — one who has already become worked up enough to send an email rant; the slightest tone can easily be construed as a personal attack.

        I’ve been reading this site too long to be concerned for someone’s “feelings” on a political issue in general, but if your goal is to persuade and retain attention, the structure and presentation i’m seeing will be very counter-productive.

        I had to pause on that, and reflect a while. See, if you were 58 years old, you would have no excuse for believing that horrible lie. But you’re 18, and so, not to put too fine a point on it, you are still a young skull full of mush. You probably not only believe that, but you probably haven’t until now even had anyone question it for you. See, you’ve been lied to your whole life about that, and it probably shocks your sensibilities to have someone call BS.

        But I will be straightforward and to the point with you: whoever taught you that was helping to repeat a lie. In fact they told you a horrible, hateful, wicked lie, a lie that is sexist and, also, racist to the core.

        And if telling you that hurt your feelings, welcome to the world of equality, where people don’t spare you from harsh truths just because you’re a girl.

        If you believe men have silenced women for thousands of years, or that women had no voice for thousands of years, you believe something that just not true. Counterfactual. In error. Furthermore, if you believe that, what you have to believe is that Asian men have been oppressing Asian women for thousands of years, black men have been oppressing black women for thousands of years, European men, Australasian men, and so on, have all been oppressing their women for thousands of years. And those weak women could do nothing about it. So what you believe here isn’t just wrong, it’s racist.

        If you believe women have had no voice for thousands of years, you are also spitting in the faces of your grandmothers, your great-grandmothers, your great-great grandmothers, and virtually all the women of history. And you’re spitting in those men’s faces too. You are at once making out women to have always been weak, spineless, craven little creatures who never had the strength or courage to rebel against their oppressors… and you are making the men in their lives, their fathers, brothers, and sons, out to have been monsters.

        Seriously, it’s only because you’re only 18 that I’m not calling you a bigot and telling you to go to Hell. But I will tell you, without apology, that your teachers are bigots, and I will ask you to give them a great big “screw you, you for abusing your authority by teaching lying propaganda to young people like this” for me. No seriously. Please do quote me. Screw them. They lied to you, and their lies are toxic.

        • JGteMolder

          You’re forgetting; she’s a girl. Start throwing facts at her after her emotional e-mail, all you’ll be doing is getting her to roll her eyes.

          If she were a boy, facts would work, but not girls. One day out of the womb, and girls are already looking at faces over objects, and boys are looking at objects over faces.

          To touch a girl, especially one as indoctrinated about how superior women are and their intuition and feelings over logic and facts, you need to engage her without facts first, you need to touch her on an emotional level before you can land the cold hard facts.

          • angrytomato

            Well said.

      • joebspi

        Make no mistake Dean. Your writing was an excellent article that made all of the points that needed to be made. And I do agree that her age is a factor in the way that she thinks. But I felt that you might have mentioned her age factor a bit more than was needed. I was afraid that if she actually did read your response, she might get too caught up in the age description to not pay attention to the rest of the important data.

        Thank you MGTOW-man. My girlfriend is an awesome lady who I love beyond belief. She is ordinarily one of the most logical people I know. She is also one of the most genuine people on the planet. WYSIWYG. :-) But when I talk about any issue concerning how men are disadvantaged, abused, ridiculed, or disposed of. Or when I talk about the hypocrisy of feminists, media, or society at large, she will listen but I can see the discomfort in her face. She will eventually ask that we drop the discussion because she just doesn’t want to talk about it. What I see in her is that her logical mind is at war with feelings. She does not want to think about the reality that women do bad things or that media and society tries to shape the way we think and believe.. Even though she knows it is true and will grudgingly admit it, she doesn’t want to confront it. She doesn’t even want to think about it. And then she will usually say that I am only torturing myself by paying attention to these issues since obviously nothing can be done about it. I tell her that I know it is an uphill battle, but if I don’t speak up nothing will get done at all and the issue will just continue to get worse. And then I usually drop the subject with her because I love her and life is too short. Our lives together revolve more around us than it does the world.

        She sometimes says that I “think too much”. Not just about men’s issues, but all issues. And I agree, but I cant help that.. I am retired now and have a lot of time on my hands to read the news, see the trends, and follow a certain amount of social media. I like reading articles and blogs, but I like reading the comments sections even more than the articles themselves. The comments sections always give me the “pulse of the people”.

        Warren Farrell says that “Women can’t hear what men don’t say” and for the most part I agree with him. But what disturbs me is that now we are at a point where men DO say, but women still don’t want to hear.

        • http://www.menbeproud.org Robert Brockway

          I don’t believe it is possible to think too much. Human thought has shaped the world.

        • strix (David King)

          She sometimes says that I “think too much”.

          Ehhh.. I’ve had that one a fair bit, too, but usually from people who valued conformity too much or who otherwise felt uncomfortable or threatened by having old assumptions challenged. I will only say that it is rather disrespectful and is not being said for anyone’s benefit but the speaker’s.

  • Kimski

    Being a Dad must come in pretty handy, when you have to respond to a letter like that, Dean. ;)
    It rightfully deserves a place on the frontpage, and later in “the archives of toxicology”, for a long time to come.

    I just hope she’ll take a long good look at the next homeless person she meets on the street, and takes a minute to reflect on the very nature of his ‘male priviledge’. The same thing goes for every crippled war veteran, sewer worker, garbage collector, scaffold worker, and the other billions of men who tirelessly put their lives on the line every day, to sustain and uphold the level of civilization that has made it possible for her to write that letter, and then send it by email.
    And I also hope she takes a minute, while she’s at it anyway, to think about when she last saw a woman performing one of those tasks.
    -Or, to put it more precisely, why she doesn’t see that happening at all…virtually anywhere.

    • Fredrik

      Well, as long as I’m playing the Dr. Watson to Dean’s Holmes and asking for explanations that seem obvious in hindsight, I might as well remind everyone of the Case of the Hound of the Baskervilles. To notice barking is normal; to notice silence is hard. I have long made an effort to notice absences, precisely because I loved that story, and it’s still hard. It always will be. That’s just human nature.

      • Kimski

        Spend more time in the outdoors, Fredrik.
        Absence of sounds are a sure sign you should be more attentive and cautious, so I’d make the case that it’s human nature to forget things that will make the difference between life and death, when our lives don’t depend on them anymore.
        We seem to have forgotten this, along with a great many other things, including inherited female behavior.
        ;)

    • earth one

      The same thing goes for every crippled war veteran, sewer worker, garbage collector, scaffold worker, and the other billions of men who tirelessly put their lives on the line every day, to sustain and uphold the level of civilization that has made it possible for her to write that letter, and then send it by email.

      You said it! Well done!

  • http://underthegoddess.blogspot.com/ Kevin Wayne

    It sounds like you guys have been getting Tumblr Feminists drifting over from my blog again? LOL

    This soooo look like a convo I might have with one of them.

  • Billybobownway

    It might just be my computer, but, I find the grey on white text very hard to read. All of the text appears very small with very wide column width. I’m getting lost all the time.

    • Fredrik

      The quoted content is unfortunately grey on white. That’s just how they have it set to resolve the [blockquote] tag, and I don’t know how to change it.

      For the rest, the first step is to check your browser settings. For example, in Firefox, it would be Options, Options, Content, Fonts & Colors. If you can’t find the settings, then just try a different browser, like Chrome; but I recommend finding the settings eventually, because your eyes will only get worse with age.

      • Billybobownway

        Thanks for the tips, I’ll try to do that.
        ===================
        under preferences, bigger font is a miracle.
        I can read without a headache.!!!!

        • Fredrik

          Woohoo! :D The next step is to maybe give yourself a bit more real estate.

          I don’t know if you noticed, but the smaller screens are still on sale after the Superbowl, probably because most people went for bigger ones. You can probably find a 32-incher with a PC input for under $250.

          For screens, you need to pick it out in the store. Normally I would recommend NewEgg for computer hardware, but your eyes are the last word on what’s good for you to look at.

  • earth one

    Excellent letter, props to you, Dean.

    If Carly M. is reading this – here is my message to her:

    Read Dean’s letter a few times before you turn on your heel and walk away. There are many of us who, while we may not agree with or share every sentiment on this site, have opened our eyes and see very clearly how things are playing out.

    You claim this site is all about ‘promoting men’. Really? And I am sure you deny that Feminism is concerned exclusively with the welfare and promotion of women.

    There are individuals from every walk of life reading, participating, and contributing to the content of this site. I for one am a gay man who is fed up with being force-fed politically correct Feminist dogma and sick of being told that Feminism is concerned about my welfare, when clearly, the message Feminism sends is that men are better regarded as second class citizens and, in fact, may not even be worth keeping around in the near future.

    (Well, at least until someone needs help with that heavy box of goods she ordered from Amazon, or needs her car fixed or her computer repaired or the luxury of transcontinental air travel to get from point A to point B.)

    The point being, if you are an adherent of Feminist Ideology, you need to wake up and take a look around. Feminism is not about equality.

    Take a moment to click on the globe you see there in the right sidebar. What you will see is that millions of people, from all over the planet, are reading this site, and have been for years. Take a look at the many cities and countries represented in this site’s readership. Do you really believe that these people are deluded? That if they could only see the world from your point of view they would change their perspective?

    I agree with Dean, you sound young, and naive, and there is no reason to hold that against you. It was really kind and decent of Dean to take the time to respond to you with such depth and compassion.

    Good luck to you – and here’s to the hope that you are truly seeing a bigger world than you did before.

  • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

    Dean be teachin’

  • Blacque

    Well done Dean. As I was reading I hoped that the grace you’ve shown in this would also be mirrored in the comments and I’m always pleased to see that the community here is reasonably and even sympathetic toward what some might consider to be ‘enemies to the cause’. Righteous Anger is so rarely understood and even frowned upon since the idea of justice hinges upon so much obfuscation it would seem. Late to the party as always but I hope that I’m able to contribute more in the future outside of just thumbing up good work and leaving comments.

  • John Narayan

    “I am sorry on behalf of all the women in your life.”

    How fucking arrogant, patronising and condescending is that!

    Again this just reinforces why we need tens of thousands of posters in places where young males hang out, not just a website alone. I suspect most MHRA’s don’t get how small the windows of opportunity is.

    • Poester99

      Not even just to Dean, but also a belittling insult to any women who may have different point of view.

  • IndependentShock

    Dean, that was an excellent reply. So that I don’t repeat what all of the people above me wrote and add something new (ok, just one thing, the piece that men are the primary impediment was so true. wonderful!) I’m glad you did that. It was not waste of your time. I’m just fantasizing here, but may be there should be some rotation for people to respond to this kind of emails. So that folks don’t get exhausted saying the same things over and over again to newcomers. Surely some women/men/young folks will remain to be prejudiced, but some will start thinking, some will change their mind, some will at least learn about the idea that you should get statistics at reputable sites and not based on a study by American Institute of Something Noone Heard Ever At All. Some will realize that 1 in 5 women reported seeing a ghost (from cotwa.info) and will link it to another “1 in 5(4)(3) women reported…” statistics.

    If Carly replies to you, whatever she replies (she has all the cards it’s up to her to form an opinion now) please post it.

  • Lastango

    For me, this is the most telling part of the note from “Carly”:

    “Think about opportunity. Think about coexistence. Think about collaboration. Think about a world that is beautiful for everyone to live in. Think about equality. Change is scary, I know that, however it cannot be stopped.”

    It translates as:
    Come collaborate with us – in the feminist genderpolitical space. Coexistence begins when you agree we are enlightened and you are the oppressor. So of course change is scary for you – you will be giving up your privilege. Always remember, peace is the absence of aggression and other, male-specific patriarchal constructs. That includes resentment, and fleeing New Ways. So quit being angry. Relax, and let us help you shed the unjust burden of your old concept of masculinity. Change cannot be stopped; we are winning and you are losing. Don’t think of it as surrender. Instead, think of it as recognizing that feminists are your natural leaders, and learning that’s best for everyone. And how’s this for equality: change isn’t just for you. Today, feminists have become totally aware of the many ways we need to put men to work supporting genderfeminism and all women. That’s why we’re inviting you to come join with us. We can’t do it without you. We don’t want you to oppose us. We also don’t want you to walk away. You want peace, don’t you? Isn’t peace good? Well, peace starts when fighting stops. So let’s collaborate instead, and forge feminism’s Fair World together!

    • Kimski

      Yes, I had serious problems with that paragraph, too, but when I chose to interpret it as follows, it all made perfect sense to me…sort of:

      “Think about rainbows, butterflies, and unicorns, while we all run around in erratic circles, desperately trying to avoid being captured by men in white coats armed with tranquilizer darts. -Yeahh, feminism!!”

  • http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com Robert St. Estephe

    Dear Carly,

    Please demand a refund from your college. You were robbed. You are a victim of propaganda and indoctrination, just as so many people have been in the past — propaganda perpetuated by utopianist culties who pushed you into believing not only FAKE HISTORY, but also in the scientifically discredited and cruel (because it is closely allied to the dog-training anti-human trickery of behaviorism) doctrine of primary/exclusive “cultural constructionism.” You were robbed of the liberal education you, as all people, deserve, and you are certainly entitled to receive every penny you or your family were robbed of by politically correct con artists.

  • Soothsayer
  • Soothsayer

    SNOT BUBBLES!!!

    My son had consistently gained high distinctions in several NSW Examinations. After eight years sexist oppression in the women’s republic of New Zealand, I was repeatedly being refused a copy of his school report. Finally, I called the Police to advise them that I was going to the school and wouldn’t be leaving until I was supplied with a copy.

    The Police were in attendance when I arrived at the school. I met with the Principal and I discussed his report with her.

    Every field was ‘UNSATISFACTORY’. Little wonder they were reluctant for me to see his report.

    After two one hour computer sessions at Numberworks his school math test score went from 25% up to 89%!!! What on earth were they teaching them at the school? There certainly was a huge empathisis on ‘behavioural modification’ not unlike one would encounter in a military indoctrination program.

  • Turbo

    Dear Carly,

    You sound like a nice young woman, wide eyed, full of enthusiasm and keen to do your best to fix the troubles of the world.

    I commend you for your sense of righteousness and good will for all people, and especially your belief in equality for all regardless of gender.

    We here at AVfM follow the same ideals and beliefs as you.

    The problem here is that you are being taught a revised version of history, a version that is rich with feminist victim-hood. Dean has given you many good examples and much reference material. You asked us to do some research, I do hope that you will do the same.

    If you really want to see the inequality that men face in today’s feminist society you need look no further than Family Law and the Family Courts.

    Fathers and their children are routinely separated daily, and then these Fathers are placed under great financial burden to support the Mother whilst no longer having a right to be involved with their children.. Not only is this a crushing blow to Fathers, but it is proven to have a very detrimental effect on children’s lives.

    You see how that works Carly? Mothers have rights, Fathers have responsibilities.

    I have a daughter just a couple of years younger than you. When she was six years old her mother decided to take her 300 miles away to live in a different State against both my own and my daughters wishes.

    I was unable to stop her, why? Because I am a Father. Because I am a man, I have no rights to my children, and my children have no right to their Father. That is how the system works. They say they work “In the best interests of the child”, but what they do in practice is “in the best interests of the mother”

    I do not know if you have a loving Father in your life Carly, I sincerely hope you do. If you do, imagine if he had been ripped away from you when you were a child. Can you imagine the heartache?

    Incredibly, I would probably be one of the luckier Fathers, I still get to see my daughter a few times a year, I love her dearly as she does me. Many Fathers never get to see their children again, leaving a hole in their heart until the day they die.

    And that day sometimes comes around very quickly. Men are ten times more likely to suicide after separation than women. Such is the trauma of having your children stolen away.

    Carly, you asked us to “Think about coexistence. Think about collaboration. Think about a world that is beautiful for everyone to live in”

    Ok, I would like you to think about this.

    Think about a world where the most dangerous thing a man could do is get married or co-habitate with a woman and have children. Think about that man living the next 20 years of his life shit frightened that his wife will get bored with him, unilaterally divorce him and steal his children and assets, knowing that there is at least a 50% chance of this happening.

    Think about that man now rotting in jail because he could not afford to pay the enormous child support demanded of him, guilty of nothing more than being a good Dad.

    Think about that world Carly, because that is the world we live in now. So much for a world that is beautiful for everyone.

    This is just one area that society has trampled all over the rights of men. But you won’t be taught any of this at school. In today’s society it is politically incorrect to recognize the pain of men.

    Carly, you say you were offended by the hate on this website. May I suggest you are confusing “hate” with “hurt”. There is a lot of “hurt” here, and justifiably so. The only hatred you will find here is of feminist ideologues, both the female and male variety, because of the untold damage they do to men, women and children.

    You say you would like to work for human rights, well, we work on a premise around here which is virtually invisible to society at large, and that is that

    “Men’s rights are human rights too!”

    Interestingly, this simple statement makes many people who supposedly fight for equality very angry.

    I do hope you will stick around here Carly. There is much you can learn here that you will not hear at school, or in the mainstream media for that matter. In fact a lot of it will be diametrically opposed to what you have been taught.

    It is not sugar coated so as not to offend people’s sensibilities. In fact it is edgy, up front and in your face, and it is unapologetic about that.

    What it is though is fact not fiction, truth not lies, true equality for all, not ideology for some.

    Good luck with your studies Carly.

    • Turbo

      Maybe this will help you Carly.

  • Jay Boppana

    Great stuff Dean.

    Incidentally I have seen “Miss Representation”. It is the usual feminist narrative on all sorts of issues. It goes on about women having a low percentage of numbers in Congress and firms, and puts this all down to discrimination, without understanding the real issues (women place a much lower priority on careers and working themselves to the ground to achieve a career in politics compared with men, and hence the lower numbers of women in high-stress crazy hour careers like politics). It also ignores that women also have by far the voting majority in America, politicians represent their constituents and politically favorable policies such as puting women first and men last. Hence why we have a specific government council for women and girls, and about 700 women specific programs and billions in government funding, versus very little for men and boys. And yet somehow the government is sexist against women and girls? You gotta be kidding me. Here is a great article on the long list of legal inequality faced by men & boys that doco’s like Miss Representation completely ignore and present a completely inaccurate picture saying it is women & girls who are discriminated against when the reality is the opposite.
    http://kyle.thedamnedoldeman.com/?p=7
    Written by Kyle L. Does anybody know where he is these days?

    The Miss Representation documentary is highly flawed, and just presents all sorts of skewed narratives. I can’t recall if this was in it, however basically the documentary would be analogous to saying girls have unrealistic body image issues because there are Barbie dolls with a non real feminine body, without looking that boys have HeMan dolls with non real masculine bodies. Basically it presents the world with a narrative that women and girls have it much worse and men and boys are privileged and rule the world. It is pretty much all a false narrative, but a great propaganda movie for misandric feminism. And also for people who want women covered up like in Saudi Arabia, because women are “sexualized” in America.

    So yeah, I guess the movie Miss Representation makes a case for a more totalitarian, repressive and misandrist world. And I was subjected to it, because it was shown at my university. I got a lot of nasty looks when I pointed out some of the points I’ve made above, the room was packed full of gender ideologues.

    • JGteMolder

      The most ridiculous thing about the whole Miss Representation film is they spend their time crying about how the media is portraying women as sexy and beautiful…. told to you by women that are beautiful and wearing makeup, up to and including girls in their early teens.

      It’s utterly laughable to listen to the rhetoric and put a picture together of what kind of women you’d think they want to see in the media, and then look, and just see the same women as the ones you see in the media. Which is, of course, because feminism itself is pushing these beauty ideals to portray the perfect victim to be sympathetic too, and these days need perfect victims with lots of neoteny to make themselves look as bigger victims than the average girl or boy.

      In fact, the women here, part of AVFM like Karen and Alison and Goth Diana, the ANTI-FEMINISTS look closer to the non-makeup, great diversity, very much not-media-sex-symbol ideal the idiots are advocating should be in the media, than the women in their own bloody documentary.

  • sungecko

    Some recommended statistics for Carly to look at:
    The false statistic that more American woman are physically abused during the Superbowl than any other day. (link)

    The DOJ funded 2007 Campus Sexual Assault study, in which only 25% of the respondents it classified as raped while incapacitated and only 40% of the respondents it classified as forcibly raped, actually considered any of the events that happened to them rape. (link; 5-20)

    The incredible disconnect between public campaigns that treat domestic violence as a problem with only male perpetrators and the mountains of research which conclude domestic violence is a complicated problem with similar rates of male and female perpetration (Partner Abuse State of Knowledge Project link).

    The CDC 2010 NISVS, which found similar yearly rates of male and female rape victimization, but excluded most male rape victims from the study’s rape statistics by classifying them as victims of “made to penetrate” instead of “rape” (full report link, 17-19). The CDC further tip-toed around this finding in its summaries. The CDC Executive Summary states, “Male rape victims and male victims of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences reported predominantly male perpetrators.”(executive summary link, 8) However, since the CDC classifies “made to penetrate” as neither “rape” nor as a “non-contact unwanted sexual experience,” the summary fails to mention the study found that 79.2% of male victims of “made to penetrate” “reported only female perpetrators” (full report, 24). Essentially, the CDC has taken over 1 million male rape victims per year and brushed them under the rug!

    I’m just scratching the surface. I really hope Carly can push aside stereotypes about men and women and objectively look at the statistics. Once you do, it’s obvious that something very fishy is going on which normally results in inflating female victimization and ignoring male victimization. This keeps us from coming to an accurate understanding of serious problems. Always dig deeper-demand primary sources and check them yourself!

  • antifeminist

    Carley..did you bother to click on the link at the top of the page entitled “women”? You seemed like a nice pleasant 18 year old woman, So you feel uncomfortable with the “men are superior” attitude or atmosphere on this site, you need to at least give the woman a chance. Please make sure you read the “women on the fringes” and the various videos listed.

    Carley.., if your still not convinced this is not a “men are superior” type of website, have a look see at Karen Straughan’s video “nafalt”.

    Also, Carley.., you did not specify what specific type of research you were looking for. Are you interested in statistics only or some other topic you may have found on this site. What is the topic you wanted to focus on – MGTOW is an idea. If your looking for someone (not an actual contributor) to this site, i’d be more than happy to offer some ideas. GWW has given iterviews from time to time.., why not base your research on why women chose to be active members and contributors to a site that you initially felt uncomfortable with due to the “men are superior” atmosphere.

    Typhon blu is also a key contributor.

  • crydiego

    Carly M.
    I believe that your letter was well intentioned and clearly written. I also believe that you received an equally well written response. I don’t want to rehash anything but I must add a comment about something you wrote.

    You said, “I want to reduce the statistic that 30% of women and 10% of men will be raped or abused in their lifetimes.”

    Your letter mentioned statistics and you even said you are taking a class in Probability and Statistics. Please take a look at what you wrote and consider if this is a rational statistic. Please consider these questions:
    Is this a world wide statistic?
    What was the size of the sample taken?
    What were the sources of the sample taken?
    What was the definition used to sample for rape?
    What was the definition used to sample for abuse?
    How were the sample size, sources and definitions controlled for the two groups, male and female?

    Carly, my guess is that you are 16 and not 18 but either way it is time for you to start questioning the world around you. Statistics are nothing more than the analysis of data and if the data is murky or missing, well then, so are the statistics.

    Let me be the first to welcome you here at AVfM, please sign in and stick around..

    • sungecko

      “I want to reduce the statistic that 30% of women and 10% of men will be raped or abused in their lifetimes.”
      Where does this statistic come from!? Seriously, does anyone know? It always bugs me when people don’t cite. I’ve seen too many made up and miss-cited statistics, even from seemingly reputable sources.

      I’m also always suspicious of any study that combines two different things to get one figure. Normally, it is just done to inflate a figure. It also makes the statistic almost useless. Which is more prevalent, “abuse” or “rape?” Statistics like this don’t actually educate anyone and they don’t help us solve serious problems.

      Also, as Crydiego pointed out, what is defined as “rape” and what counts as “abuse?” These words don’t have consistent universally agreed upon definitions. That is why they have to be defined in studies and surveys. Does verbal abuse count? Psychological abuse? Rape is abusive. Does it double-count as both rape and abuse?

  • D.D.Harper

    OH Boy…Dean. A very good cometary, thank you.

  • Cam

    A truly excellent piece Mr Esmay. Well balanced I think. I envy your impeccable writing talent.
    (If AVFM are keeping a top 20 archive of articles or the like this should be one of them).

    Having read Carly’s letter a few times I can understand the attitude she has embodied in it.

    There are millions of privileged Carlys out there in Nth America and other western societies, with minimal life experience, that have been literally indoctrinated since the age of 5 with all of the sentiments expressed in her letter. You simply cannot blame them for coming up with this kind of material because they have been forced fed a diet of this stuff their entire lives. They accept it as fact and mostly won’t question it.

    I was struck by this item in her letter……………..

    “Some feminists may have this idea, however most women want equality.
    Most people want equality. Tell me,why should we not deserve equality?”

    Better still Carly. Tell us what rights and opportunities in your society YOU do not have – and need – that males have.

    18 YO Carly has been well brainwashed into truly believing that woman in our society do not have equality of opportunity or rights. It’s not her fault. This is how she has been educated and she has never been given any other viewpoint. Worse, she has been encouraged to completely accept what she has been told and discouraged from questioning it. This is how we are educating the sheeple now. It is not only in the area of peoples’ rights and opportunities but in a whole range of fields.

    Well in our western societies there are hundreds of thousands of pages of laws and regulations that guarantee (in laborious detail) that women have exactly the same rights and opportunities as men.

    Indeed some of these laws have been implemented in a manner which sometimes give greater benefits to woman than men – purely because they are woman. Further, in some western societies their are laws which grant benefits to woman that are not available to men.

    What we do not teach young minds is that if you want something you have to work very hard for it regardless of your sex.

    Those indoctrinating all the Carlys of this world don’t want equality of rights and opportunities. They already have that. They just want equal outcomes without working for it or, better still, advantage in outcomes. Then they want it handed to them on a big pretty plate. They most definitely do not want to work hard and compete for success and achievement as men have always had to do.

    AVFM does not blindly accept what is delivered up to it as the educators and the powers that be in society would like. They challenge and question and analyse.

    Sadly this is obviously quite confronting to the Carlys of this world who seem to have been taught to question and analyse very little.

  • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

    Response email from Carly:

    “Hello,
    It’s me again. Yes, that young girl with a skull full of mush. I appreciate the time you took to write me a response, it was quite a response. What do I have to say fro myself? Well, your letter reinforced everything I believe. It seems we are at a stalemate, you will never agree with me, and I will never agree with you. I have no problem leaving it as so. I would be glad to watch the movie you recommended, thank you. I will let you know once I have watched it, I have a lot of schoolwork tonight, but I will get to it soon.
    I am unaware of the age of majority in Canada, however in the USA it is 18. I am 18 and would like to be treated as such. Do not hesitate to call me a bigot and tell me to go to Hell, I would appreciate the honesty. I am sorry you got the impression that I see women that came before me as weak. I suppose I shall work on my syntax. I do not understand your assertion that I was being racist, however I will look into it. Your letter also seemed to indicate that I would flinch and cry like a little girl, I would be interested to know why you got that impression.
    I did look into your statistics, however I know from my Stats class that any and all statistics can be biased. I am guilty as well. I ended up doing my Stats project on human rights violations in Iraq.
    Thank you for your time,
    Carly

    • Kimski

      “Well, your letter reinforced everything I believe.”

      ‘Etiam dii contra stultitiam frustra luctantur’.
      Nice try, though.

    • MGTOW-man

      Feelings ran amuck! Didn’t I say this? It explains why feminism is so hard to get through to. They do not WANT to believe the real truth…so they won’t!

      Evolutionary, determinism, biological, sex-specific research… any of these come to mind?

      THIS is what we are fighting. THIS is why I am so harsh!

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

      ” Your letter also seemed to indicate that I would flinch and cry like a little girl, I would be interested to know why you got that impression.”

      http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304558804579376793890614128

    • strix (David King)

      Well, your letter reinforced everything I believe. It seems we are at a stalemate, you will never agree with me, and I will never agree with you. I have no problem leaving it as so.

      Probably because you perceive this site and Dean’s reply through a gender-feminist lens. Agreeing to disagree is a fine thing (and far better than trading insults, which often happens in situations like this), and though it’s true that “reasonable minds may differ”, unreasonable minds are certain to differ.

      I mean to say that for as long as you buy into feminist notions of male privilege and patriarchy, it is inevitable that you will reject the evidence that we present and, as appears to be the case here, use your visceral, emotional reaction as grounds to further entrench your perception and judgement of our case.

      The point is, you are not making rational, objective judgements on this subject. That’s your prerogative, of course, but please don’t fool yourself that you are doing anything else.

      I am unaware of the age of majority in Canada, however in the USA it is 18. I am 18 and would like to be treated as such. Do not hesitate to call me a bigot and tell me to go to Hell,

      For as long as you hold onto a particular point of view and entertain no contradiction, yes, you are a bigot. That’s pretty much the definition of a bigot: one who is utterly intolerant of differing belief or opinion.

      You may be an adult but, given your age, you are not yet hardened in your ways (something Dean explicitly addressed) and Dean did not want to deliver his rebuttal in as forceful a way as is usually required to have any chance to get the message through.

      Part of being an adult involves owning your own decisions and their consequences, so be careful what you ask for: make an account, interact with us and defend your thesis here in the comments, like an adult. As I said to you via email, you can expect robust debate, but I promise you that we will not tolerate personal attacks on you (ETA: and that’s a far better offer than any of us are likely to get on a feminist site).

      I did look into your statistics, however I know from my Stats class that any and all statistics can be biased. I am guilty as well.

      At least you admit that you are guilty of allowing biased statistics to cloud your view. I am sure you are familiar with the phrase, ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’. Of course, MHRAs are as guilty some times, but I completely fail to see how you can reach the conclusions you do based on an objective evaluation of the data, anecdotes and stories out there.

      We’ve presented copious quantities of statistical evidence in favour of our case, and we’ve explained the methodological flaws in data that contradict our case. You know how statistics can be abused, or should do if your statistics course is worth its salt.

      It’s all down to you, now. I just ask, like Dean, that you try to keep an open mind, constantly examine and re-examine critically everything anybody (including us) tells you, and beware of those trying to sell you an agenda. Especially an agenda that imposes demands for privilege on others.

      • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

        In a review of our “Facts” page, I found a number of outdated references or references too easy to challenge. This is understandable, it was put together years ago in the very early days of this site and long before we had the Reference Wiki established. I have done a minor update to that page, thanks to these email exchanges, to reflect that. On substance the material on that page is something we still stand by but there are better references in the wiki.

    • Andy Bob

      The platter of condecension on which she delivered her original shame sandwich made it obvious from the outset that Carly is a very familiar figure to MHRAs. She is hopelessly attracted to the victimhood that feminism promises to girls like her – she’s in it for the martyrdom. The moment a feminist launches into a tearful tirade about those mythical ‘silenced women’, you just know she feels all warm and squishy inside. It’s their porn..

      Another givaway that Carly is a lost cause of entitlement is her adolescent demand to be taken seriously. Apparently, it has never occured to this partciluar snowflake that being taken seriously is not a right – it is something that is earned. She claims a desire to promote equality, but only her kind of equality. You know, the kind where men’s concern for Carly is equal to her own.

      It takes a great deal of practise to acieve the level of ignorance in which Carly takes such obvious pride. Sfter spending some time at AVfM, Carly expresses profound shock that there is a site that (in her words) promotes men. All who participate in this are dismissed as mad, bad and sad. Carly pities the women in our lives. Clearly, Carly’s response to any male in her life promoting their rights and welfare would be to feel sorry for herself. More martyrdom.

      Trying to convince Carly of any concept that challenges her cherished victim identity is a waste of time. She is doomed.

  • Theseus

    Excellent Dean!

    It always bothered me that many in the MHRM failed to connect the dots between gender feminism and racism. By saying “men this” or “men that” or “male privilege” these fembots are also talking about black men, Latino men, Asian Men, gay men, etc. This is inescapable logic. Yet they try to have it both ways ALL the time. The Trayvon Martin case is a typical example: “Hey minorities we fems are friends of the black man”. WTF? Since when? You mean when you support taking their children away, or support throwing them in jail for trumped up DV rape charges to protect all these poor victimized black (and white) women?

    Terry O’Neil and Eve Ensler are constantly talking out of both sides of their mouths all the time. I know the MSM isn’t going to call them on it, but I’m surprised more people on the outside don’t.

    Oh, OT but could some of you hop on over to this self described “atheist and skeptical (lol)” blog. The supposed “skeptics” commenting really aren’t understanding the wisdom in letting the authorities rather than college kangaroo courts handle sexual assault cases. I know ya’ll will be as rational and tough on them as you are fair.

    http://patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/02/19/why-wont-michael-farris-respond-to-allegations-of-sexual-assault-at-patrick-henry-college/

  • strix (David King)

    [NB: I wrote most of this yesterday and didn't get a chance to finish it. I know Carly has read at least some of this article and, hopefully, some of the comment threads, and again encourage her to register an account and participate in the discussion. Y'know, like an adult defending her thesis.]

    I was one of those male members of staff to receive Carly’s original email and I must confess, I was a bit taken aback and at a loss for how to respond. Well, Dean did it for me, and did a far, far better job than I would have. I’m still left wondering, though, whether Carly is talking about the same website as this one. I see justifiable anger here and there — sometimes quite intense — but very little that would seem to qualify as ‘hate’.

    Carly, can you give us any specific examples of articles on AVfM that you perceive as ‘hate’?

    Tell me, why should we not deserve equality?

    For the record, let me state that I, along with my colleagues, stand for equality before the law and equality of opportunity (while rejecting equality of outcome as irrationally idealistic), and that is why I volunteer my time here. As Dean pointed out, though, equality means sharing in the downsides as well as the up sides.

    Needless to say I was very offended, I hope that my email is not hateful, just a different point of view for you to consider.

    One of those downsides is dealing with unpalatable or otherwise offensive speech. You’re an adult woman now, and I suggest that nobody has the right not to be offended. I don’t like giving offence and will avoid it where possible, but not at the expense of articulating truth as I see it.

    You seem to believe that everything negative that has been done to you has been the fault of women.

    ‘Women’ is a demographic. ‘Feminism’ is an ideology responsible for an immense amount of harm to both men and women alike. Like any other subpopulation there are saints and arseholes amongst women.

    Your whole website is based on the belief system that men are far superior to women.

    Different, not superior to. Men do some things better than women, and women do some things better than men. The idea that men and women are intrinsically identical psychologically, and that differences are purely a result of socialisation is a radical feminist idea with no basis in reality. A tragic example of how this is wrong is the case of David Reimer. Any trans* person will tell you that the idea of social construction is bunk.

    where I can be taken seriously and not objectified.

    Being taken seriously is a privilege, if you like, that is earned, not demanded nor owed purely on grounds of, for example, genitalia. Demonstrating why people should take you seriously is entirely up to you.

    I want to create awareness about racism and sexism too.

    Here’s a proposition for you: women cannot be sexist because sexism = discrimination + power, and women lack the power (read agency) for their discrimination to have any influence. Ditto ethnic minorities and racism.

    If you think that statement has any merit, then you are not, in fact, in the slightest bit concerned about racism and sexism. If you reject that statement and wish to do justice to your commitment to equality, then you must consider the sexist claims that feminists make about men and the sexist and grossly unjust law and social policy feminist doctrine has sponsored.

    Since you are studying statistics, start by assuming as a null hypothesis that we do, in fact, have a point, that our data bear out our claims and we are right to oppose feminism. Assume we are correct, then look for evidence on our site that would contradict our declared intentions.

    I want to reduce the statistic that 30% of women [...] will be raped or abused in their lifetimes.

    That sounds like the infamous one-in-three/four/five statistic courtesy of Mary Koss, which has been thoroughly debunked multiple times. Others have addressed this upthread in more detail.

  • Winstone

    dear Caryl, I suggest reading the book “Who stole feminism” by Christina Hoff Sommers: a chapter is dedicated to the damage that feminist indoctrination done in “women’s studies” courses does on joung minds. If you read the book, you will also realise that most or maybe all of what feminists reached you is a lie. Nazis did the same to german children

  • Fredrik

    @strix: “I have seen the more enlightened feminists admit that they have privilege, and tie themselves up in knots trying to check it, all the while maintaining the feminist line of oppression.”

    Well, there’s an interesting question. If you admit you have privilege, what’s the right response to it? I don’t think that checking it is right, or even possible without impairing your agency.

    In my very personal opinion, as a possessor of the very real and awesome power of white privilege, I think that it’s more important to study moral philosophy and use your agency well. Sometimes that will mean standing back to let someone younger and less experienced solve the problem and grow as a person, and sometimes it will mean standing up and using every little shred of power that you have to right an injustice.

    Different people are different. We all have different personal power. The only question that matters is how you use your agency, because to not use it at all is a cheap cop-out and a tragic waste.

    • Fredrik

      I expected downvotes, but in this particular case they’re meaningless by themselves. I honestly don’t know if you’re disagreeing with my assertion that privilege exists, or that it’s okay to use it responsibly. I know that my POV is non-PC for both sides of the aisle, and I appreciate having somewhere that I can say it at all, even though I still can’t expect much agreement.

  • http://www.menbeproud.org Robert Brockway

    A Probability and Statistics class should be about mathematics. When I read Carly’s reproduced letter it struck me that the course seems to be about the content of the data, not the mathematics.

    One of the factors contributing to declining academic achievement among boys seems to be the softening of what were once rigorous quantitative courses. Here in Australia some senior high school physics courses are reportedly 1/3 history.

    • strix (David King)

      Well, yes and no; statistics is one of those subjects where you do actually need to have pretty decent “domain knowledge”, without which it is very easy to arrive at completely ludicrous results.

      That said, the example you give is pretty bad. Devil and detail etc.

  • James Williams

    Well crafted response Dean. I hope she reads it and responds and is not too steeped in bigotry to be able to recover from her intellectual pit. of lies and misinformation she is currently in.