To the women lurking on the fringes

I don’t know how you found us. Are you a student at University of Toronto who heard about the Warren Farrell lecture and protest, or you have read the notices about our being blacklisted by powerful forces on the Internet? Or are you in a relationship with a man who has been dragged through the family court by a bitter ex? Or have you come to worry that your son is doing poorly at school or is opting out of society, and you are trying to understand? Or has your brother been falsely accused of rape or domestic violence? I know you are lurking there, as I did for a couple of months.

This place is a bit of a shock to the system. There are a lot of reasons why you might be afraid to identify as part of the Men’s Human Rights Movement (MHRM). Lets talk about those:

Some of these guys are so angry

Yes, some are. Many of the men who get here have been through some pretty nasty experiences. Some are women angry about things men and boys they love have gone through. They are understandably angry. Despite what a you might have been told growing up, being angry is a normal and healthy human emotion. Maybe if you are honest with yourself, you are here because you are angry about how a man or boy in your life is being treated.

I found my way here because I was trying to get my head around the experiences of my Beloved, as a man who experienced abuse in a marriage and is experiencing misandry in the family courts. Get me to speak about the damage done to him and to his daughters by the “family terrorist” and her enablers in the family court and you will quickly pick up I am pretty angry myself. You’ve got to remember, these guys are angry but it is not directed at you personally.

Some are pretty pessimistic about women as a whole, and if we respect that their mistrust comes from experience, instead of shaming them for it, we may learn things we need to learn, sometimes painful things but important nonetheless.

I’ll be flamed for saying something stupid

Possibly. If so, learn from it. It feels pretty crappy to get flamed, but if you can get past the feelings, some of the things said in response to your words will help you see things from different angles. The discipline needed is to separate feelings from thoughts: it’s something you can learn with practice, but you got to start by interacting so you can learn. Young woman reading scary thriller book

These guys are anti-relationship, anti-family – I want both in my future

This isn’t a dating site. But as the Men’s Human Rights Movement continues to gain followers and gain traction, odds of you finding a man who’s interested in these issues will go up, whether you stick around here or not.

I wouldn’t worry much. If you get into a relationship with a Zeta Male you are probably lucky. You will find most of these men to be caring, compassionate, gentle, and honest souls, who are pretty up front about what they want or don’t want, even if they are still wounded in some areas.

On the other hand, there are some guys – and I don’t even want to hazard a guess at the percentage – who are Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW), and looking at the bum deal most men get from the legislation and court system that surrounds marriage and divorce, and they don’t want a committed relationhip with a woman. I don’t blame them, when you realize what can and does happen to many of them.

But there are guys here with children, with partners, with wives even. There are young guys here who I am sure want children and want partners. The big thing if you are going to go into a relationship with a guy who refuses to let others define him, and who believes he has all the same rights you do, is there can be no assumptions as to your respective roles and duties within a relationship. It needs to be negotiated and discussed.

Who knows, your Zeta coupling might end up looking quite traditional to those looking in on it, but it may not. It will be your own matter and your own concern, but it needs your care, respect and attention if you are going to maintain integrity as a Men’s Human Rights Advocate. In any case, this site is not about your personal relationships, it’s for those of you who care about the men and boys in your life. And it is about their issues, not yours.

I believe women can do anything, I don’t like some of the attitudes towards gender I see here, particularly when issues such as women serving in the military or getting places in STEM courses.

I also believe women can do anything – within biological limits. I’m shorter and have less muscular strength than probably 95% of the guys on here. I wouldn’t be able to do 1/2 of what was expected of me to be in a combat role (laying aside I am a committed pacifist and would be a conscientious objector), so I am prepared to accept from a physical perspective I can’t meet the standards needed for soldiering.

There are some things women can do better than men, but there are plenty of men who can do those things as well. As for the rigorous academic standards required of STEM programmes – yes, we can achieve them, if we are prepared to make sacrifices like the men and women who have made it there already. I know too many female doctors who once they get to the point they have specialized, doubt their choice to have gone into medicine in the first place. The thing those women have in common: they are trying to be a consultant, and a mother, and they are constantly fighting against the thing that got them into their training in the first place.

The unhappy women I see had to be single minded to get into medicine, and by trying to be several things at once they can’t be single minded – they can’t be the best. I am not saying women who want to be in STEM fields should not have children. What I am saying is we need to accept that if they have children their career paths are going to be at a slower trajectory than when they don’t–or, accept a partnership with a man who takes on most of the duties at home and thus makes less money than you, and not think less of yourself, or more important, think less of him, because of that choice. Yes, workplaces can accommodate working mothers – in my own family there have been two women who have had “job share” roles during their children’s younger years.

My eldest sister took this along with her partner taking time out for some of the child raising. She and I have very similar professional responsibilities at this time, yet I’ve been working 10 years less than her – but the 10 “missing years” were the years she was part-time, and she has no regrets. If we women are going to have self-respect, we need to work out what we want and be prepared to sacrifice – and that might involve making choices that run contrary to society’s message of “I can have it all.” No you can’t. No one can.

What if I get hit on by one of these guys?

That will probably happen less here than elsewhere. But you might I suppose get lucky and land a guy who is as great as my Beloved. No, seriously, sexual interest and attraction happens between humans as they get to know each other. Equal relationships, be they friendships or something more intimate involve both parties making choices. If you don’t want to “spoil a good friendship” then it is OK to say “No, thanks”. In my experience (and I have recent experience of this), your “no” will be respected. It might even make the friendship stronger.

Is it safe meeting fellow MHRAs in real life?

I’ve met a few. I hope to meet more. Standard operating procedure based on anyone I meet online applies. Neutral public venue, independent transport and my escape route planned. That’s just common sense for anyone of either sex. After a while, you might meet in each other’s homes, spend time in more private spaces, and so on, but that’s after you get to know someone. That shouldn’t be different for men or women, and isn’t.

I like being feminine, I get the feeling that’s not OK around here

What do you mean by feminine? If it means expecting female privilege and special treatment because you’re a woman, you are out of luck. If it means celebrating your femininity, you are probably in for some pleasant surprises. Once we stop demonizing men, and start valuing masculinity, we start being able to explore femininity, not the pseudo-feminine competitive crap that passes for “femininity” in society.

I really struggle with the whole “” thing

Honestly, I struggle with some of it too. But many, like Harriet Harman deserve to be there with spades on, and there are countless men on “sexual offender” registries around the world who’ve done far less than what the violent protestors at the University of Toronto did in late 2012.

That registry is for public officials who’ve said and done horrible things, or individuals who have a) acted in an unlawful manner, and b) they had public profiles including boasts about things they had done – so they were already “public property.” Their names are public information, not secrets.

I don’t get the “sammich” jokes

Don’t worry – it is because us female MHRA’s are thought to be traditional women serving their men sandwiches and waiting on them hand and foot. Since being in a relationship with a Zeta man, I’ve been more nurtured and pampered than I ever was in a more traditional relationship. In that loving and secure partnership, there is space for humor around our respective roles. I see the whole “sammich” humor as an extension of this – we get these jokes because we are valued as individuals and equals, not to be denigrated.

What if my female friends/boss etc find out I am an MHRM supporter?

Although there has been a recent increase in the number of MHRAs writing and being active under their actual names, some of us still use pseudonyms. I do, not because I would mind people finding out, but because at the time I started becoming active in the movement, I was dealing with a narcissist who decided I was a threat and was out to smear my reputation.

I had to make a calculated decision over the risk to my career if this person found out I was an activist with a “notorious” group, and decided that the risk was too great. I will keep reviewing this and perhaps one day, I too will write in my own name. As for female friends etc finding out – one of the most rewarding conversations on the MHRM I have had is with my mother who was an active second-wave feminist.

Don’t pre-judge people’s reactions, and be prepared to accept that if people don’t like your choices, perhaps they are not your friends.

I’ve got only a limited amount of time to contribute to the MHRM – I’m not going to be much use

Sending an email to your political representative doesn’t take much. Challenging misandric stereotypes in your own household doesn’t take much time. Sticking up the odd sticker (I would love to see some AVfM stickers in women’s toilets!) or reposting something on Facebook doesn’t take much time. But perhaps that action will bring another person to the Men’s Human Rights Movement, and then you’ve changed the world.

Remember, this is a human rights movement, and real human rights movements almost always are mis-characterized and almost all have some extremist elements within them. But this movement not about superior rights for one or the other. It’s about the same fundamental rights for everybody. And the responsibilities that go with those equal rights. And you can be a part of making it grow.

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About Aimee McGee

Aimee McGee lives in rural Eastern England in the community where she
nworks as a health professional. She is a human rights activist with interest in gender equality and disability advocacy. She plays in a brass band and shares her house with 2 tabby boy cats. Good coffee and English beer are her main vices.

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  • patriarchal landmine

    “Or are you in a relationship with a man who has been dragged through the family court by a bitter ex?”

    or maybe you ARE a bitter ex dragging a man through family court.

    give me a reason to trust first, before I stick my arm in that wood chipper again.

    • Aimee McGee

      Been through a divorce. No children, divided assets down the middle. Managed without a lawyer. Cost under £100.
      Was told later I could have got more money. Pointed out my self-respect was worth more than the money I would have been awarded.

      • tamerlame

        Did you earn 50 percent of those assets?

        • Aimee McGee

          By the time all the financials of the relationship were calculated there was a £350 difference in his favour. He got slightly more physical assets. Although he earned more, the money gifted me by my grandmother paid his student loan – which is why record keeping is vital in any contractual situation

  • Jim Muldoon

    What a very timely article, and well written Aimee McGee.

    My wife is very supportive of my activities here. She shares all my articles on her facebook page with her friends.

    Like Aimee, she has seen the very real damage that was done to me by the authorities. However, she was also caught in the crossfire. They showed no hesitation in trampling all over her to get to me.

    The articles on here can be quite confronting, but that’s because the problems being addressed here are confronting issues being made worse by government and the media trying to hide them under the carpet.

    And yes, some of the feelings are raw and expressed that way. A bit of compassion and tolerance is required.

    Take the red pill, that always helps.

    • Aimee McGee

      Jim, I got a serious dose of colateral flying monkeys ™ this week. It took a great deal of patience and word crafting to respond without adding fuel to the fire.
      Personally, I prefer overt anger and expressions of hurt and pain. They are there, you can be present with the person in their reality.
      Sometimes that is what matters – that someone is there alongside you and really hears what is being said.

  • Robert St. Estephe

    “Some of these guys are so angry” and “some of these gals are so angry.”

    Logical conclusion: “Some people are angry about some things sometimes.”

    Lunatic’s version of a conclusion: “Guys are dangerous.”

    Note: Some people get angry when they observe that logic is out the window and lunacy is now regarded as normative.

    • Tofeldian Sage

      Some people get angry when ‘normative’ is regarded as ‘normal’. :)

  • externalangst

    @Aimee: “Or have you come to worry that your son is doing poorly at school or is opting out of society, and you are trying to understand?”

    Hmmm… Hadn’t considered this type of “trying to understand” before – Thanks Aimee. That does make more sense.

    I’ve been dubious of women who have come here commenting they are “trying to understand”. Something didn’t sound right about having to try to understand why men and boys deserve compassion. What didn’t they understand about the universality of human rights.

    So if your lurking and ‘trying to understand’, you may like to stick around. :)

    • Aimee McGee

      I’ve just spent the better part of 3 days working alongside a guy in my congregation to help him get back on his feet after a nasty depression.
      I know his parents are frantic with worry about him and his illness, as they can’t see a future for him. They are the kind of people who need to come here to see just what happens when male skills and gifts are diminished and marginalised.
      In another age he would be a master craftsman by now, no one would mind his quirkiness because of the skills he has in his hands and heart. In this age of service industries being ascendant, he does not fit. So we have stripped back, prepared and painted a door that is 175 years old. During that time we’ve talked as much or as little as he wanted.
      It takes time to understand the journey of other. But it also takes the willingness to learn

      • Fredrik

        I recommend The Complete Guide to Getting a Job for People With Asperger’s Syndrome, because the nature of the target audience means that Barbara Bissonnette breaks everything down into small steps and explains the reasoning behind each one. I believe that no matter how quirky you are, if you do the assignments in that book, you will end up with a personal brand and a clientele that likes it.

        • Aimee McGee

          Thx for the recommendation.
          We discussed today which of all the jobs he has tried he would love to do full time. Now the trick will be finding a way in to doing this or similar.

  • onca747

    IIRC this is not a new article, right? Just that it rings a bell. At any rate, an excellent article, and probably the first I’ll show my Beloved if one day I have the guts to intro her to MHRM.

    Although one point caught my attention:

    …. “What if I get hit on by one of these guys?”

    (my answer:)
    I suppose it is a legit concern.. but this “female safe space” mentality will not endear you to many people. For god sake put on your big girl pants. We’re all adults here. Yes “hitting upon” could happen, but like Aimee says it would probably happen a hellava lot less than most other activist sites, and even feminist blogs I bet. Curiously enough, a majority of men here are categorically not looking to get into a relationship, and the rest are happily partnered. Honest respect, once earned, will be returned in spades, and depending on your demeanor you may even cop a little “mommy worship”.. don’t mistake this for romantic interest.

    And finally, if you are at this site to “meet guys”.. boy are you in the wrong place. No one here needs fixing or to meet the “right girl”.

    • John Narayan

      “female safe space”

      Any shopping centre or cafe during the week, haha!

    • Chad_Nine

      I’m reminded of the videos of PZ Meyers shamelessly slinging around sexual innuendos in his conferences. I’d bet good money that more “hitting on” goes on in the feminist circles.

    • Aimee McGee

      I’ve had a wide range of masculine responses to me on this site, and I have no problem with any of them.

      I’m comfortable who I am and what messages I’m giving out to others.

      Love me, like me, loathe me – not a problem.

  • scatmaster

    IIRC this is not a new article, right

    AVFM is posting articles from the past as an influx of people was expected after the 20/20 broadcast.
    ABC chickened out but it is possible that some have migrated over here from the discussion thread on their website.

    Not sure if this article is new or not but like you it seems familiar and is one that should be posted for the uninitiated.

    • Dean Esmay

      There’s still a high chance 20/20 is going to run something, especially since their one print article got a record number of comments and appears to still be roiling. I think our calling them out on an outrageous misrepresentation probably set off an internal frenzy of fact-checking and it wouldn’t surprise me if some heads rolled or nearly rolled. They may have also decided that this story is hotter than they thought it would be and needs a different spin from the Massive Threat Narrative they were trying to build.

      So maybe they’ll pull it, maybe they won’t, we’re still experiencing a huge surge of new traffic, now coming from both ABC and The Daily Beast.

      • August Løvenskiolds

        In addition to other concerns, the November Nielson Sweeps TV Rating period is coming up, and ABC may have decided that the flood of comments (more than double any other article of theirs) might allow them to leverage the piece into more money by delaying it until then.

  • Vivica Liqueur

    Thank you for this article. I can not say I’m a man’s rights activist, sticking with Human rights activist. I can’t attach to a gender based movement again, however, I come here often to read the articles because there is SO much truth here that I agree with almost 100% and I share these articles with people and on my page. There are some things I do not fully agree with, but that’s OK I don’t need to, it is obvious how much truth is here. As far as getting ‘slammed’, that already happened here but what was great about it was it brought me to a deeper awareness of the still feminist armoring I had in place. I’m always learning more and I love watching Girl Writes What as she really helps dispel so much brainwashing.

    Since I started delving into reality I have been shocked, mortified and just really sad to see how much b.s. we are all fed and yup, that came with feminist agenda. I was one who thought that feminism was equal rights but, not true at all. And as a sexually empowered woman, I have always had rages with what I separated as ‘extreme feminists’. As a sex worker men always shared with me their sadness, their aspirations, they felt very comfortable to trust me and I honored that trust. I saw the way men were with me and then I saw men walking around everyday looking beaten as if en-caged and it infuriated me. I, the sexual woman, has been demonized by feminism for so long. As if I chose to be a sex worker because something is wrong with me or because a man made me do it–load of crap! I have other sex worker friends and we all entered voluntarily and we all love men.

    I found that scares the crap out of feminists-sex. Why is that? The sexually empowered woman, how dare she have fun and be herself and share her sexuality with men and/or women? She is only ‘encouraging’ the sexually empowered man to be free and healthy with his sexuality too. The sexually empowered man empowers the sexually empowered woman and/or man. Too much sex! And we all know that feminism fears the sexual man because a sexual man is automatically seen as a predator by them! Our society still combines sex and crime. NO! Sex is sex, rape and molestation are a crime, those who do the latter are criminals! Consensual sex is really redundant, if it’s not consensual—it’s not sex! Again, it’s a crime! But this just shows more how men are treated as criminals including their sexuality.

    I even saw an article by a feminist, that I just looked at the title and could not make myself read because I knew it was a load of crap and the title said it all, ‘I don’t agree with sexualized feminism’ or something to that extent with a photo of Miley Cyrus. What were they really saying?? I don’t agree with the sexual woman.

    I’ve dated male strippers and they would show me their scars-SCARS-from women scratching at them! This come from the ‘taker’ dynamic. I also was a stripper at times I was grabbed without consent, however, I took matters into my own hands and grabbed people that disrespected my body by the throat-I’m already sharing my sexual energy no need to ‘take’-however, there is no way the guys would be able to do anything about it especially if they just started giving a lap dance, they would have to stay there and were often surrounded by the whole table of women and groped and scratched etc. If I were to be encircled by a group of men-btw way NEVER happened!-bouncers would be there instantly. Seriously, it just was not ok for male strippers to defend themselves. Ok so I also got kicked out of a couple of clubs for retaliating [and as I got older, this no longer happened, I learned tactics and actually became softer about the whole experience] but no man EVER clawed at me! Wow! And like I said, women treated me the most like a free for all grabbed whatever they could. Men would usually ask if they could even touch my leg. Often the touching for men was more of a wanting to give, they said they wanted to please me, so sweet. I would just smile and tell them to relax they already paid for the dance just relax and receive. Men are not often given the option of receiving sexual energy, it’s usually one way, give, give, give. How many guys really feel comfortable asking for their hearts desires or sexual desires? We shame men’s sexuality so much and consider it criminal but women can ask for anything under the sun and chances are there will be a man to fulfill it. But do guys also feel this way? Do they also know there are many women out there that will fulfill their desires? And heaven forbid women, sexual women, should show men they deserve to receive, what does that mean for women who use sex as a weapon? or as a way to control men? No good news for them that’s for sure!

    In my personal life I’ve learned to let go. I enjoy the Men Going Their Own Way movement, that is so beautiful. Men deserve this so very much as well. It’s important to be highlighted as such. Also, I see this as all people living authentically, breaking out of their cages. A few months ago I went into a phase of ‘maybe all these online women are right, I should wait 90 days before having sex so I can have a partner’. What a load of shit. I started to see how hateful and pissed off these women are and how they progressed to attack sexual women as well. I created so much stress for myself with this dynamic and needing each guy to be ‘the one’ and hurry up and figure it out because I made these walls for myself and I’m horny already damn it! Total insanity. So, I decided to just really ask for what I want, I want lovers and am open for more to happen in the truth. This has been such a wonderful release for me. Letting go of what women tell me I should be-not sexual-and receiving the lovers I want without this panic of each man needing to fix my life or fulfill me. Feeling fulfilled within myself to really enjoy my lovers and the experience of who they each are as a PERSON not as a mission. I feel so much more relaxed and happy. I think most women have this panic of needing to have on partner to be ‘appropriate’ and it looks like men also have such a training. Fuck it all. If you’re poly, go for it, single, go for it, monogamous but not ready yet, have fun! Don’t put up with people telling you that you must be a certain way to please society, because honestly, what the hell is society doing to please you??

    I’m not perfect I still am learning and this site really, really helps, especially Girl Writes What and I really enjoy reading Dean Esmay[hope I spelled that right].

    I do have one thing that I found on here and in feminism-the dress appropriately paradigm so as to not get attacked. To me this continues to applaud the criminal and continues to shame the body. The nude body does not always have to mean sex and even when it does mean sex it does not deserve to be treated however. This stems from our puritanical society that says we should all just dress a certain way. Guaranteed a guy wears a speedo to the beach, he’s going to get his crotch grabbed, a woman wearing a thong on the beach is less likely to, that’s just not acceptable…sigh. And walking down the street a mini skirt or a topless man does nor a man in a mini skirt, does not warrant a free for all. Blatant disrespect for boundaries. I do believe in equal rights and regardless of gender when someone says ‘dress appropriately’ it’s a trigger and I will tell them they are full of it. That may trigger some to explain or attack even and this is something I hold firmly to. Let’s stop wasting our time with what I call social criminals-pot smokers and dealers as well as sex workers-and concentrate on the violent criminals who still think they can hide in our own perception of ‘sex and sexuality is bad’ as well as the other major criminals.

    Apart from that I really love coming here. I started the Cock Consciousness movement on facebook which many took as me objectifying men. Nope. I want to shift the way the world treats men instead of putting the pressure on men to change who they are, the world embracing the beauty of all men who men are including their bodies and voice. The mixture of a movement with men’s voice and men’s bodies and sexuality, all together-have yet to see that unless it’s conveyed in joke form. I don’t find men, their bodies, their voice to be a joke nor do I believe they should be portrayed as such. Also, I want to empower the brotherhood of man to heal and convene with each so that men feel safe amongst each other too. Often men’s groups are dispelled because ‘oh no can’t let them gather’ Why??? Because they would learn to stand up for themselves against society’s horesehit??? We’ve pitted men against another for too long in the name of ‘honor’.

    Interesting enough it’s become a bit of a sanctuary after being attacked by feminists many of who I thought were ‘friends’ being left feeling sick to my stomach and dismayed, I come here for a sanity boost. I try to explain to said ‘friends’ that I had the same misgivings and show them the video of Girl Writes What but of course they refuse to watch it instead sending me statistics and links as to why we live in a patriarchy even after I send them further information as to why that is not true the second I say feminism is hateful bullshit they say ‘you’re calling a movement that has helped women hateful assholes? I’m done.’ Fine fuck off. Because I’m done holding space for the hateful bullshit including your attack on me. I didn’t contact you, you contacted me privately after what I posted on FB[ahh good ol’ social networking].

    Not sure if you have seen it but there is this:
    Circulating and it really boggles my mind that people are taking this as ‘proof of patriarchy’ @.@ WHAT???

    Also got into a conversation where I was told that women are a small percentage of Congress and need more initiatives to change that. I then went on to share that about 8% of women are interested in a career in politics as opposed to 15% of men. That is also a fact. And what? So now we are going to shame women for not forcing themselves to pick politics as a career?? Way to keep boxing women in to one way of being RARR!!! They said that once women are represented equally in congress then we can say we have equality. So I said, you are assuming that more women in Congress means equal representation for ‘women’. What does that mean? What do you stand for? And actually there are many men in Congress standing up for the rights of women and all genders just so happens!! Saying that having a vagina means you will automatically stand for a certain set of beliefs is the same mindset as the misogynists you hate so much! Ah! I feel like my head is going to pop from the blinding hypocrisy!!! At a certain point there may be more men than women in office I don’t think this should be forced to happen! And if we are leading with the mentality that a vagina or penis make good Congress we are screwed! I also pointed out most of the people in office are still Caucasian, does that mean I think this is a ‘white world’? NO! There are many Latinos and African American’s who are coming into politics but I don’t think that needs to be forced or that shows that we are being seen equally because you can’t categorize people by skin color or genitals or monetary situation, each INDIVIDUAL has a set of beliefs! Vote for the ones who follow those beliefs and stop separating each other! Each INDIVIDUAL will bring unique views and WE the people are the ones who vote them in and chose them, SO we need to take accountability for our government and stop this b.s. separatism! I don’t buy into that crap! I understand the history and feel we need to heal from it, remember it, yes that is important and heal from it. If each individual took responsibility for their personal pain and rage and fear and sadness -I don’t mean it’s your fault for getting hurt, no body deserved nor deserves to be hurt-and fully feel it and heal it, wow what an amazing world we could be.

    I don’t care what’s between your legs, I care what’s between your ears when you’re running this country and I don’t have this fear of that being men as well!! Feminists have this panic to change our system and hurry up and make more women politicians–why? Total fear of men, total projection of men being the cause of all things evil! I was raised with a mother who told me every day–I shit you not–men are evil. Even at a young age I knew that was horsecrap and I fought that every damn day until I was old enough to tell her back ‘no they are not!’. I’m not perfect and I’ve been quite the asshole at times in my life, I even went through a period hating men myself-why? I put them on a pedestal at one point and when they showed themselves to be human I couldn’t handle it. Also, my victim mentality could not take responsibility for creating crappy interactions with men when I knew there were amazing men out there. I had my own healing to do before I could receive them. Feminism also puts men on a bizarre pedestal or more like a cracked pedestal. Screwed if you be all they ask, screwed if you don’t leaving men feeling —wait for it–pissed off and rightfully so. I have been told-and this shocked the crap out of me because I did not ‘hear’ it until I started to open my eyes and perhaps they said it before but I never heard it-that men do not deserve to be treated equally until women are! @.@ I seriously crashed when I heard this. I was shocked. I know some may say ‘duh’ but for me, that was not what I had thought feminism was even though I always had issues with it, I still clung to the lie feminism equaled human rights. It was a human horror to realize that these women felt this way. Total human horror.

    Any time any group says another group does not deserve human rights-that is a major problem!! The hypocrisy is stifling!! Then they had the nerve to say they were married trying to say that meant they loved men. Sorry love, that’s like using the ‘n’ word and saying but I have a black friend-load of shit!

    So, I really enjoy coming here and reading-I know broken record-and will continue to share the amazing knowledge I see here. However, I need to pull out of identifying with gender movements and stay in Human Rights. And yes, listening the male voice and all genders who are awake towards the needs of men, is a very important part of human rights.

    I try my best not to take on or react to the wounding that I see here with some men who lash out intensely, I get the pain. And I’m still human and not perfect yet learning. I’m seriously right now just worn out. I feel like I’m getting bashed from every angle and feel a bit worn and just mad and sad about all of it. I process this daily and it’s distressing seeing how many people would rather stay in their justified rage instead of listen. Sorry, I like to learn the truth, even the process of coming into a new way of being is extremely uncomfortable. It’s called growth. I’m not giving up though, I believe people can and will wake up. I think we’ve reached a point where it’s impossible not to.

    Thanks for listening. This site is important to bring balance back to society.

    • Fredrik

      Damn. That was epic. I encourage you to organize those thoughts into an article or two, but even if you don’t, I read the whole thing. There’s a lot going on in that comment, but I thought it was worth it. Mad props.

      One thing I see is what looks like a conflicted attitude toward MGTOW. You respect what we’re doing, you see the beauty in it, and you’re also hurt now and then by the anger of some. I totally get that. You seem like a very sensitive individual. Just remember that when there’s anger, it isn’t directed at you. It’s like when a woman has been with one or more abusive men that damaged her trust; it can take time to work through. Same thing. We’re all just people.

      • Vivica Liqueur

        Yes, I hear you Fredrik and thank you. And I don’t know how to organize that into something more coherent yet lol But I have some things I will be writing down, there’s so much to say. This has been and is quite a journey thank you for your kind words.

      • Vivica Liqueur

        Figured I’d share here as this came out naturally this morning. My rebuttal to feminism being as being “necessary”. I’m going to share it on the ‘Counter Culture’ thread too as a way for people to tell those who still back feminism as a necessary movement to pull their heads out of their asses.

        ‘There seems to be some confusion as to the fact that I see feminism for the hatred and superiority mongering that it is, that this means I don’t believe in women having rights! [psst! I’m one of those too!] Let me be clear, feminism does not monopolize nor is necessary for women’s rights, and because I also believe men are human and need rights doesn’t mean I exclude another human like the feminist movement does–welcome to the HUMAN RIGHTS movement. Specializing in Humans getting the rights they need across the board, which happens to include women, as we are humans.

        I do welcome you to see which human is not so grandly included in the human rights movement-still, men. In order to fulfill what the Human Rights movement stands for there needs to be the awareness of what the Men’s Human Rights Movement is saying. As you can see, the domestic violence section is still gender oriented and visible ONLY under women’s rights, misandry is still common place and treated as if it’s not a form of abuse, when men speak out about their pain there are such hateful feminists that go so far as to mock them calling it ‘man tears’. I’m really shocked by this hypocrisy since if we switched the gender into ‘women’s tears’ the outraged would be astronomical. Total hypocrisy.

        More information, because I hear ‘Feminism helped so many women’.

        Fun Facts:
        The Congo Reform Association[CRA] was started in 1904 and was one of the first beginnings of Human Rights and the exploitation of the natives by King Leopold II during colonialism, Theodore Roosevelt had the CRA established in America. It was dispelled after the Congo became a colony of Belgium and the rule of King Leopold II was ended. However, America continued it’s involvement for for Human Rights and firmly established the Human Right’s movement in 1935, UN started in 1945.

        Now, The Feminist movement started in late 1800’s in America and the word feminist was coined 1910. The first wave of feminist was the suffragette who focused on the wish to vote, many realized black women should be added as that would bring more numbers to their advantage. There were many feminists who disagreed and still did not see black women as humans. No, I’m not one who believes in a ‘great big white world’ as I KNOW I could choose pretty much any career my heart desires and go for it -thank you civil rights movement which began in 1896, especially thanks to the Civil Rights Act of 1964[not that this is when segregation ended]!!! However, when we talk history-LET’S TALK FACTS! The feminist movement was created by and geared towards the white straight woman. If you think, that politicians would not have realized the power they could gain from adding women to the voting system, on their own?? Ha!! Meanwhile, the black woman was still washing and pressing those white feminists linens and saying ‘Yassam’. So, I don’t want to hear this was a movement about equal rights for women. Unless by women you mean only a certain group of woman qualify as such.

        The second wave of white straight feminism began in the 1960’s discussing gender roles, which was already being discussed with the LGBT movement which began in the late 1800’s!!!

        Meanwhile black feminist movement was pissed off at being left behind by the white feminist movement and became the National Black Feminist Organization in 1973. Geared by being seen as human beings, and claimed outrage at many not being able to truly use their voting privileges until the 1960’s. That wasn’t because of being a black WOMAN it was because of being black! Guess what??? Black MEN were also not seen as human beings and many also were not able to vote! Ahhh! My head!! Again, let’s remember the black civil rights movement! Black feminist movement not required.

        And these are only two of many ethnicity’s.

        There was also the Asian civil rights movement of the 1960’s, The Native American civil rights movement then called the Indian Civil Rights movement in 1968 beginning discussions for equal rights to all.

        Now, let’s talk women’s rights NOT the same as feminism. Women’s rights, yes we’re still talking about white women, however, they was a realization by said women that black PEOPLE were not included in the 14th and 15th amendment which gave black PEOPLE the right to equal protection under law and right to vote. Women’s rights activists were able to able to make headway in Wyoming and Utah first. John Allen Campbell granted women the right to vote in 1869. Before this in 1756—did you catch that date??????—–Lydia Taft was allowed to vote in 3 town meetings in Massachusetts. Following the American Revolution white women were allowed to vote in New Jersey from 1790-1807. ALL BEFORE WOMEN’S RIGHTS AND FEMINISM! In 1916 the first women in the House of Representatives was Jeanette Rankin.Women’s rights cried out for equality for all until feminism showed up NOT talking about equality for all but female superiority with the mentality of ‘anything you can do I can do better’ NOT equally, better, understand?? They dismissed the black man and focused on black women’s rights to vote to further their movement propelling the disposable man feminist syndrome. It also began the attack on the stay at home mom and women who heaven forbid cared about men’s needs and wanted to care for their husbands, sons etc. And then came the attack on femininity and the sexual woman.

        So this bullshit about needing an initiative that ‘introduces’ women into politics, is just that, bullshit. I guess I see women as more intelligent than this claim makes! We have eyeballs and happen to have a brain, we know politicians exist, nor are we kept away from becoming politicians. As I’ve show above women have been and are now, in politics. Feminist have this panic to shove more women into politics, why? Back to the assumption of men not giving a shit for women’s rights AND the assumption that all women will stand for women’s rights. Each individual has their own set of beliefs. If you assume that a woman stands for woman’s right because she has a vagina, you’re saying that we have per-determined beliefs because of our sex and are just as ignorant as the misogynists you hate so much.

        If you really believe women’s rights, of all ethnicity and sexual orientation, throughout history would not have come about without feminism, then you do not know your history.

        Every gender, every ethnicity has been through hell. We need to unite and stop feeding into separatist agenda and perpetuating hatred and feel justified in doing so. We are all HUMAN enough with gender wars! If you feel entitle because of what’s between your legs to shit on someone else because of whats between their legs GROW THE FUCK UP! The feminist movement perpetuates hatred of men. Mocking or dismissing a person’s pain because of their gender is the sickness of DISCONNECT!!!!

        As far as here in America, the elderly, children and those who have debilitating diseases and disabilities need to be taken care of. Our focus should be on improving their lives and giving them the assistance they need to live and flourish.

        Time to stop blaming, own our shit and move the fuck forward already!

        Flying cars! Flying cars were predicted by now! But we still have trouble seeing certain human’s as human’s??? Time for a global pulling-the-head-out-of-the-ass-movement!’

        • Vivica Liqueur

          So, yes, I will own the title of Human Rights Activist-Honey Badger extraordinaire.

          • Vivica Liqueur

            That being said I’m still a babe in this so I’m open to feedback.

    • Aimee McGee

      Welcome fellow Honey Badger!

      Nothing you wrote of your experiences of the sex industry surprises me one bit, it chimes with what I heard and saw a few years back when I developed a good clinical reputation for being able to see past the job title and see the Health need.
      I too call myself a human rights activist as I came here out of a disability background…but I will remonstrate misandry openly :)

      • Vivica Liqueur

        Thank you Aimee McGee for responding, I totally resonate with that, human rights activist which means, no misandry or be prepared for my mouth. I love your wording on seeing the sex industry as a Health need!! Beautifully said! Mind if I use that term?

        And can you enlighten me as to what Honey Badger means?

        • Fredrik

          Here it means a woman who defends mens’ human rights, but I just saw this video while researching the question and it’s funny. “Honey badger don’t care,” LOL.

          • scatmaster

            Cracks me up every time.

            Honey Badger don’t give a shit.


          • Vivica Liqueur

            Bahaha! I remember watching this video! Awesome, Honey Badger, I like it :)

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      I’ve said this before, I’ll rinse and repeat:


      They have been since they elected Ronald Reagan in the 1980’s.

      I repeat: women have been the deciding voters since the 1980’s.

      If women wanted women in office, the highest qualified person, Hillary Clinton, would now be the president of the United States instead of Barrack Obama(who? Who’s this guy?) as Prom King.

      Women want MALE ENFORCERS – not other women telling THEM what to do.

      • Vivica Liqueur

        Wow, this seems to be quite true. I wonder why? Not being facetious I’m actually curious.

        • Fredrik

          Because patriarchy theory is the opposite of reality. A guy will do whatever it takes to make the women around him feel safe. A gal will do whatever she feels like. When women want politicians to reliably represent their interests, men are a good choice. Women are… different. It could be that simple.

          • onca747

            Fredrik that article is freakin batshit insane. I actually feel a bit sorry for that woman, but she learned a very important lesson. Of course she could have learned it much more cheaply by simply talking to anyone who works in a mostly female office.. although to be fair I’ve never heard of any female environment this bad. I suppose this is what results when you get a group of highly-paid, “artistic”, “outspoken” entitlettes in the one place.

            “if I were to do it again, I’d definitely employ men. In fact, I’d probably employ only men.”
            Get the brass plate and hammer, I think we’ve found our quote of the decade.

          • Fredrik

            @onca747: Insane indeed. BTW, credit where it’s due, I got it off of a Stardusk video.

    • onca747

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts Vivica. I’m glad you can call AVFM one of your homes. I think you had some run-ins with folks here before.. but when people can disagree, downvote, argue and butt heads, but then come away with another perspective and understanding, rather than saying “eff you” and holding a grudge, it says a lot for the community we have here. And it says a lot with what is probably the flagship of the men’s rights movement.

      As per your comment about people being judged for the way they dress.. In a perfect world, no one should feel threatened or cajoled into dressing a certain way. However we don’t live in a perfect world. So I’m afraid I’m with the “risk mitigation” crowd on this one. That doesn’t mean women should have to wear burqas everywhere so they don’t get raped (which incidentally is one reason why they make women wear burqas in ME countries), but there must be a happy medium. I don’t agree when feminists call it “rape apology” or “victim blaming” when people suggest using common sense in the way they dress.. until we live in a perfect world, I think safety trumps people’s delicate feelings. I personally don’t care if a woman wears a thong or a burqa around, that’s called “personal choice”.. but with choice also comes responsibility. That goes for men too.. although I’d rather not see fat guys in speedos, LOL.

      The best analogy I can think of is body weight.. I don’t think it’s anyone’s business to tell a woman she must be slim, if she wants to eat junk food and be fat. However there will be health consequences that she must take responsibility for. Obviously that goes for guys too.

      Anyhow welcome to the fold.

      • Vivica Liqueur

        Thanks for the welcome Onca747 much appreciated :)

    • Cam

      Interesting comments Vivica Liqueur.

      I hope we can hear more from you in the future. It is indeed a good sign when more ladies are gravitating to web sites like this one.

      • Vivica Liqueur

        Thank you Cam, I will definitely be on here. I like to keep abreast of what is happening with the MRM and my hope is that more people become aware of the importance of this movement and start to wake up.

  • Nostradormouse

    Kitten Humour (see Sammiches)

    We are informed that we, the participants in this site, are uniformally two-dimensional, neck-bearded, moustachio-twirling, Black Tophat/Fedora wearing, cartoon villains (Boo Hiss).

    I certainly am. Except the Fedora; I wear a Panama.

    In this context, someone mentioned Cedric Sneevely.

    OT: I got an email from Cedric a few days ago, and he’s going through a particularly acrimonious custody battle at the moment. He’ll be out of circulation for the next few months.

    We apparently subsist on a diet of Havana Cigars, strong drink, the Tears of the Oppressed (freshly squeezed), and kittens. This takes the form of either sammiches, or for those who have yet to acquire the taste for fur and claws, smoothies.

    • Aimee McGee

      If you are getting fur and claws in your smoothies you need a better blender or to let your moustache grow so it can be used to filter out the particulate matter

      • Nostradormouse

        In sammiches, hair and claws are just texture, like crusty bread, pickles and horseradish (the cats names being ‘Pickles’ and ‘Horseradish’).

        I’m just getting used to the BKT diet (Brandy, Kitten, & Teer), and I use it to wash down my red pills in the morning which I still find rather bitter after 11 months.

        With smoothies, it turns out that I’m quite particular about my particulates, so the blender/ seive/moustachio combo it is.

        • Vivica Liqueur

          Ha ha! omg, I’m crying over here this is freakn’ hilarious.

  • RobertWCT17

    >> After a while, you might meet in each other’s homes,
    >> spend time in more private spaces

    As gracious as Aimee is, women (and men) should be cautious about meeting someone in person that they connect with here (or anywhere on the internet). The vast majority here I’ll wager are gentlemen of the first order, but I can easily see some sociopath here or there thinking they latched onto a good ruse. Maybe even ask some of the senior members here to vet them out for you, sort of like your older brothers.

    • Aimee McGee

      Totally appreciate this sentiment, but also be aware that the men and women here should all be cautious about meeting IRL – the potential for harm and abuse is there regardless of the gender of the people meeting – as shown by Dr Ts series on male victims of domestic violence.

  • John Narayan
  • Redfield

    Aimee I pass my ex occassionally while shopping, I manage a smile and a polite nod … Nothing will make me express that courtesy beyond the individual! It is the SYSTEMIC ABUSE of men and boys by the law of the land that needs to be stared down … Inhuman laws discriminate and enable “individuals” to do their worst … my bitterness is firmly fixed on changing the systemic abuse of men and boys … New laws are required especially in the family court, start there and like a revolution it will set free from captivity … Both men and women, one rule for all and all for one …

    • Aimee McGee

      My Beloved is a double survivor of domestic abuse and a gender biased court system.
      My comment to Jim about collateral flying monkeys (TM) represents the on going issue he is having with his congregation being led by people willing to believe and enable the woman who abused him 17 years.
      We need a wholesale societal shift that starts with open discussion of the most unspoken taboo of them all – that women are potentially more violent than men, because our socialization does not teach us to contain our aggression.
      I could share the 5 iterations of the email response I made to the CFM (TM) committee, which starts off being very nasty and is toned down to the point where it is direct but does not give them anything to pin on me. It is only through acknowledging my own tendency to violence that I know to never hit send in a fit of temper

  • Cam

    “Remember, this is a human rights movement, and real human rights movements almost always are mis-characterized and almost all have some extremist elements within them. But this movement not about superior rights for one or the other. It’s about the same fundamental rights for everybody. And the responsibilities that go with those equal rights. And you can be a part of making it grow.”

    Interesting article Aimee Mcgee, in particular the final paragraph as shown above which is spot on. I think it is also very much about fundamental equal “treatment” of people regardless of gender (or anything else) which is something we definitely do not have today.

    Thanks for that.

    • Aimee McGee

      I’m going to thank Dean Esmay for his word-craft as an editor on getting that last paragraph spot on.

      I have felt so privileged to work with him as my editor – I’ve learned heaps