So What is a Zeta Male Anyway?

By now I am assuming you have all seen Paul’s video on the basic premise of a “zeta male”. Paul’s video is vague, but a good foundation. Still, you can’t help but ask – what the fuck is a Zeta Male?

Well, the term comes the designations in the male hierarchy; labels like alpha male and beta male. The interesting thing is that one does not essentially choose whether to be an alpha or a beta, but you do get the luxury to choose to be a zeta.

The idea of the alpha and beta male are based on observations of leaders and followers in society; who are the best of providers, and who come in second. You grow up through your life being taught what to do; who you provide for and how you accomplish that. You protect and practice chivalry, and the social constructs and institutional ideas of what men should be are handed to you without reason or explanation.

Before you realize it you have been molded into the man you are told to be, and you fall into a category. You may be caught somewhere in between, but on the odds you still lean more towards one designation or the other. In the end, from a critical eye, and an institutional one, you will be branded whether you like it or not. You have been given a status, for better or worse, based on how you adapted to your upbringing, and a bit of luck.

The problem with the idea of alpha and beta males is that the traits are partially based on superiority/inferiority and they are actually rather constricting and come with the standard restrictions of manhood (the inability to show emotions, you must raise a family, and be the breadwinner, etc). You are given a code of conduct, and how well you do determines your worth as a man, and as a human being. Traditionally speaking, you either played the game or you forfeit by default. There weren’t many options, and even alpha males were stuck in their role.

You have been given a status, for better or worse, based on how you adapted to your upbringing, and a bit of luck.

But no matter where you are, there is always a desire for freedom and change. Sometimes when there are few options, people tend to be happier, as they don’t have the abundance of options, and never have to look back thinking, “I should have done X,Y, and Z instead….” But often, when there are no choices at all it brings a great deal of pain.

Especially when you see the alternative freedoms other people have. One of the few things feminism got right was the abundance of options that it gave to women. Now that men are starting to analyse all this more objectively, many are coming to a completely different view of their roles. When looking in comparison men have started to decide that how much life sucks as a man. Now, a growing number of  men want options, too.

And so the Zeta Male begins to rise from the rubble of the shattered romatacizing of  traditional masculinity. Zeta masculinity is more self taught and defiant toward traditional social structures.

Zeta theory tends to be the option of “abstain” from the game. You don’t forfeit, but you also aren’t playing. Zeta males have no intention of bending to the will of society for gender based purposes, and opt instead for self preservation. This is not an absence of morality or ethics, but rather breaking out.

For the zeta, when he is told to do something because he is “the man,” his answer is a simple “No.”

Social expectations of both alphas and betas (being providers, chivalry, etc) are tossed aside, and we refuse to see ourselves as inferior because of it. We are doing what we want, taking our lives into our own hands. The traditional, institutional notions of masculinity will be at our mercy.

The traditional ideals of masculinity are going to be clay in our hands.  Zeta male theory lets us mold the social institutions to our will. But first we have a different goal: to take it down. Or, if you prefer, to watch it collapse and fall under its own weight doing nothing to stop it.

Despite public opinion, gender roles are still highly institutionalized in society, and within all institutions that are created. They can also be taken apart, and in the long run, that is what the goal is. It is not simply to step aside and run on a different path, but to open up all the paths to everyone available. Zeta males have every intention of breaking apart society, and building it right back up how we see fit.

How do we see the new masculinity in its most ideal form? In one word – Freedom.

The freedom to be who you are without shame, to take a professional career and family life of your choosing without being seen as lesser man.

In fact you might not even want to be seen as a man, and that is fine too. As long as you are who you want to be and can keep your head up high with pride you fit into the new design. For better or for worse, there is no shame in who you have decided to be as long as you are happy with it.

We don’t change ourselves for women, especially when it comes to relationships. If you don’t want to be with us for who we are, then you have no respect for us, and we don’t want to be with you. My time may be split to be with you, but my passions will not die for you.

It’s not just woman that we stick it to. Men are guilty of trapping others in the gender role. We will help pull you out of the pit, but we aren’t going to let you pull us back in. We aren’t going to contribute to the system that results in the fact that 80% of suicides are male. We want you to escape with us. Our hands are stretched out are you going to grab ahold of them or are you going to stay where you are?

And if anyone, man, woman, or child protests? Shut up, and get out of our fucking way. We are Zeta Males, and we aren’t going anywhere. You are.

About Zeta Male

Zeta Male is an MRA, sociology major, lover of food, curmudgeon, He is the webmaster of The Zeta Male Blog and a periodic contributor to A Voice for Men.
nHis interest is in improving life through the study of sociology.

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  • http://none Atlas Reloaded

    Thank you Zeta Male! You just boosted my confidence about being a Zeta x 50.

  • http://none Atlas Reloaded

    Also, while I may not totally see eye to eye where you state that one does not get to choose whether he is an alpha or beta (as I think that these CAN be learned traits), what you have made clear is that whether a man goes the alpha or beta route he is still playing The Game. And he is therefore a slave either way. I’d say the Alpha even moreso. He may appear, because he is at the top to be more free but he is in fact far from it. Still shackled and very much a lapdog and a slave.

    Every Alpha is someone else’s beta ultimately.

    The Zeta looks at the whole game, laughs in mild disgust and keeps walking.

    • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

      I think they are taught traits, but it is the subtleness of society’s conditioning that does it. There is free will, but I think you can’t one day wake up and decide to change between alpha and beta

      • Atlas Reloaded


      • keith

        I believe you can decide to change if you are Zeta. Your mobility is governed by your awareness. It is much easier to act a role when you see the role. Entrenched alphas and betas cannot their personal esteem is invested in their role not in themselves. They are not free men.

        • http://none Atlas Reloaded

          Now that’s one I have not thought of Keith. Yes, if you are a Zeta and therefore free you CAN choose. But, a wise Zeta I think would choose to just remain Zeta. Given the reasons we have both stated..alphas AND betas are slaves.

  • Fizzy

    Sweet, man! Keep it up. Paul’s video piqued my interest, but I was longing for a little more clarity. This is what I was imagining.

  • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

    I said not to post this till 8 lol

    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

      Oh shit, sorry. You want me to take it down?

      • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

        No its alright, I put it up now

        People will just get a double dose cuz im putting it on reddit tomorrow morning

        I also feel like this should have been the first blog post I ever did.

        • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

          Well, it is fitting. We are all writing toward conclusions, building foundations and refining concepts till they sparkle with clarity.

          If you had written this as your first piece, you’d be here now getting praise for something else you’d written and saying “I also feel like this should have been the first blog post I ever did.”

          I have not written a great deal on the zeta concept since my original work. I was actually hoping that others would pick it up, and I think you have done a good job of that.

          But so now I have a challenge for you. If you go back and read/listen to the entirety of the original, I bet you hear exactly what you are saying in this piece, just in different words.

          • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

            This piece actually stemmed from someone asking “what is a zeta male” as someone did a little facebook sharing, and a brief discussion from after showing them the video. I know a lot of it is reworded, but it is also a great foundation. It wasn’t as much designed to take it from level 1 to level 2 as much as level 1.5 more advanced than the original, but not so far to keep those unfamiliar with the basics lost and baffled

          • http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com Red0660

            The scattered expressions of men are starting towards intellectual coalescence and coherence. I’m glad to see the MRM starting to formate our understanding and message into concise conceptual form. This is progress. Next comes buzz words, bites, and phrases that stick.

  • Matthew Graybosch

    A life lived for others at the expense of one’s own happiness isn’t a life worth having. Count me in.

  • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

    Side note-I just realized a post I made the other day about Glam Metal http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com/2011/05/before-there-was-mens-rights-there-was.html

    has just become a lot more relevant as it meshes with this post through one famous song

  • Eff’d Off

    Great explanation Mr Z.

    [img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/fem unit.jpg[/img]

    • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

      Can I put this on my blog/Facebook page?

      • Eff’d Off

        Yes mate, please do.

        Anyone can put any of my illustrations any place they like so long as “Eff’d Off 2011″ is visible.

        Yeah go for it, spread my vain seed.

        • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

          thanks http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=161289347267188&set=a.161289307267192.42445.157386947657428&type=1&theater

          it will go on my blog later this week i am sorting through a lot of content and other stuff right now-if I didn’t have a sudden burst of inspiration this post may never have gotten around to being done.

          • Eff’d Off

            I clicked your FB page.

            It suits you like a fish on a bike… oh hang on a sec… I mean it fishes you like a bike on a suit… Bugger, I mean it suits like a bloke in a tool shed…

            Got it.

            See, even guys like me still have that stupid femmo saying in our heads like a fart in a space suit.

  • Stu

    So who coined the term Zeta. And was the “Z” used to indicate…..last on the list……bottom of the barrel…..scum of the earth lol. You know, Alpah first, Beta second, work your way through the alphabet…..and there you have Z…..last…..or maybe…final destination….where you can go no further.

    I don’t know what I’d be described as. AlphaBetaZeta0to10%^&@# soup probably.

    Just been sitting here thinking about it after typing that line above. Such a strange critter I am lol

    • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

      Paul coined it (see video linked in the beginning of the article)

      The greek letter zeta looks just like a Z, it is actually not at the end of the alphabet (omega) but the middle.

      Perhaps in greece you can get alpha, beta, zeta soup? We used to get hebrew alphabet soup when I was a kid so I don’t see why not…

      • Nicholas Alexander Shaw

        I propose that we use the Hanunóo letter for Wu to represent the male and for the female counterpart the letter Wi as together they sum up the concept of Wu Wei, as described by Lao Tzu in his classic masterpiece the Tao Teh Ching, symbolized by the Yin Yang, which I have tattooed on my arm to remind me to balance the masculine and feminine aspects of my inner (and outer) soul. If the male element becomes too unbalanced, anger and hostility is the result represented at large by an uncaring patriarchal, authoritarian society, yet on the other hand, if the female we get the immature feminist society that we live in today. If we integrate the two opposing forces, we will not be fighting wars of male-female oppression/repression respectively, and society will be able to self-actualize for the benefit of everybody. This is true justice in action, represented by the scales. I hope I have made a useful contribution to the discussion- stay wu(unless you’re female)!

    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

      Hey Stu,

      The term zeta wasn’t the zeta taken from the Greek alphabet. I took it from the constellation Zeta Persei, named for the Greek God Perseus, slayer of Medusa, the female monster that feminists eventually embraced as representative of women’s rage.

      Zeta, slayer of the feminist monster.

      • reficul

        One correction from hobbyist astronomer;):
        Zeta Persei is not a constellation itself but a star in the Perseus constellation.

        • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

          Thanks. I actually knew that at the time i researched it. LOL!

        • BeijaFlor

          I’m learning the night sky with intentions to learn celestial navigation, so I looked up a diagram of the constellation Perseus … one of the old-fashioned type that has a fanciful sketch of the mythical namesake of the constellation:


          Mirphak (Alpha Persei) and Algol (Beta Persei) are the navigational stars in Perseus. Zeta Persei, down in the figure’s foot, is actually the third-brightest star in the constellation. I’ve labeled it in green for this diagram.

          BTW – Zeta is the sixth letter in the Greek alphabet, but it portrays the “z” sound in Greek.

      • http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com Red0660

        Freaking beautiful Paul!

      • http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com Red0660

        We need to get this up on Urban Dictionary Paul. Credibility of the term is being slain on UD by suggestions that it is out of MRA ignorance of the greek alphabet.

        • http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com Red0660

          I’m going to sign up and get the definition up there shortly. Can you all please stop by and vote it up as a valid definition.

          • http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com Red0660

            “We’ve sent you an email, but we need to make sure your email works. Click the link in your email and your entry will be reviewed soon.”

            Ok well keep an eye out for it guys….thanks.

            Here is the post:

            A term coined from the star Zeta Persei of the constellation Perseus, named for the Greek God Perseus, slayer of Medusa, the female monster that feminists eventually embraced as representative of feminist rage. Zeta Male represents a slayer of the feminist monster.

            Example: Why didn’t that guy show respect to that woman when he saw she could be placed first? He’s a Zeta Male and lives on his own terms. What reciprocal obligation does that woman have to men but “choices”.

          • Eff’d Off

            Oi ! Give us the link, – will watch this space and then head over there… good one. :)

          • http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com Red0660


            We need to keep an eye on this to make sure it goes up. I’m hoping multiple people do so.

          • Eff’d Off

            Yeah thumbed it up. Fingers crossed.

      • Otter

        bad freakin ass

  • Lovekraft

    Great writing. Good to take a stand and stick with it.

    There needs to be some elaboration as to what things the Zeta would actually stand for, because unless he lives in a cave, he is going to interact with others, and being anti- this or anti-that doesn’t make for an especially enlightened or productive life.

    Not that I expect any self-aware male in this feminist-dominated society to have to stand for something. Just that having a moral vacuum doesn’t seem to warrant any merit.

    Does the zeta, for example, prefer democracy or totalitarianism, does he have racial alliances, does he give to charity?

    • Keyster

      He’s an objectivist.
      He lives for himself only and gives to others only if he chooses to do so.
      His allegiance is to himself first and foremost, and no one will tell him who he should be. He’s man unfettered by no one elses expectations of him but his own.

      • giselle

        LOL could also be considered a satanist. read the satanic bible…this is exactly what it says….

        • Keyster

          Yes, an inherently selfish man who’s sole priority his himself and his own well being. I know, it’s an earth shattering concept isn’t it?

          No cannon fodder, no enslavement to a paycheck and no burden of having to provide for thankless parasites.

          • Eff’d Off

            Good grief man !

            My day is made thanks to you.

            Only recently I have just adored the world of my alarm clock going off when I want it to and my little flat welcoming just me when I walk in through the door.

            My social life I’ll import when I want and you know something else too… I can fling my undies over a lamp-shade and flip the dunny seat up or down when I want.

            If a girly don’t like that mindset then excuuuuuse me ! She can clock her skull on the door on the way outta my pad o’ blokedome – yeah !

          • Introspectre

            Objectivism lacks empathy, that’s rather unenlightened, isn’t it. Valuing inherent selfishness as a singular motivation, is how our corrupt leaders justify continuing their games against us guilt free.

          • http://none Atlas Reloaded

            I don’t think objectivism HAS to lack empathy. As I see it as taking a moment to see things without blinders like bias, emotion, feat etc. I doubt anyone is objective at all times. It’s just a tool to be used when needed.

          • Introspectre

            Good point, and I agree. I have however, noticed that Ayn Rand herself was rather lacking in empathy, so it might be best not to ‘model the architect’, so to speak; in this case.

          • BeijaFlor

            Objectivism doesn’t necessarily lack empathy, but values empathy less than justice.

        • http://none Atlas Reloaded

          Doc was a Zeta in his own way Giselle.

      • BeijaFlor

        Giselle, read ATLAS SHRUGGED. “Objectivist” is the name that Ayn Rand chose for her philosophy, and that book is based in objectivism.

        Of course, if you prefer Anton Szandor LaVey, you’re welcome to stay with satanism … you are not my problem.

      • http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com Red0660

        What Keyster speaks of is survival LoveKraft. The Zeta is a response to the situation that most men find themselves in….whether they realize it or not. Many men feel it viscerally. Sub groups of Zeta are MGTOW and GAME\PUA. It all comes together. You don’t have to embrace any expression of Zeta. You will have to define what it means for yourself and how to act upon it.

        Personally as a further observation I will venture to say that the formation of Zeta is an Alpha response to our current situation.

        • http://feministlies.wordpress.com/ Theaverageman

          PUA’s are a bunch of pussybegging mangina’s they are NOT Zeta males.Zeta masculinity is based upon getting rid of the hierarchy by refusing to internalize gynocentrism.

      • http://www.manwomanmyth.com Perseus

        @ jizzelle
        1) Feminista trotting out the “patriarchy” bible to wield in ridicule? Nice try.
        2) Modern Female = Narcissist Abyss and Scapegoating the Male, betraying your protector and providor. LOL, YOUR feminist doctrine IS and HAS BEEN satanist since it’s inception, ye who worships as the alter of the vagina.

        Not foolin’ anyone, momma jizz.

    • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

      I have a piece called “so what is a real man anyways” which answers a bit of it.

      Hopefully once school is out I can take things to the next level, even with work I can spend all my free time to further my education in the way of my choice

    • Type 5

      Does the zeta, for example, prefer democracy or totalitarianism, does he have racial alliances, does he give to charity?

      I suspect he’s in favor of integrity.

      • keith

        I suspect a Zeta does not answer these questions in favor of purchasing significance in the eyes of others. His silence on these issues maintains his self definition and freedom. If I am a good man I am not your good man.

      • http://www.manwomanmyth.com Perseus

        “I suspect he’s in favor of integrity.”

  • Keyster

    Angry and bitter young men would be wise to not turn into angry and bitter old men.
    There is a light at the end of this tunnel, you just have to see yourself through it while maintaining your sanity.

    Freedom is euphoric!

    • gwallan

      Now listen ‘ere sonny…

      I officially became a grumpy old man on my fiftieth and I don’t regret a single grump since.

  • MateNeo

    Woo hoo!!!! Keep on rocking in the free world!!!

  • MateNeoAgain

    Urban Dictionary has some definitions of Zeta Male


    • BeijaFlor

      I believe Definition #1 is closest to Paul’s, and The Zeta Male’s, meaning:

      Zeta male refers to the 4th social hierarchy position among males. (alpha – top, beta – second, omega – the rest). Zeta males consciously reject a the traditional social position as it is based on how they are valued by women. Zeta’s can be straight, bi or gay. “I asked Jim to buy be a drink and he said I should pay for it myself. I guess he’s a Zeta Male.”

      I don’t think the UD definition captures all of it as well as “going Galt” would state it to one who has read Ayn Rand’s ATLAS SHRUGGED. Thumbnail synopsis – America is falling apart; the world is falling apart. The captains of industry, the great entrepreneurs who build the equipment that keeps society running, are simply disappearing and leaving their industrial empires to incompetent underlings – and to increasingly heavy-handed and inept government control. One “captain of industry,” the heroine of the story, sets forth to find out why. And eventually she finds the man who is persuading the world’s greatest entrepreneurs to just up and disappear – by telling them the simple truth.

      Sound like a familar story, here in 2011? Here on AVfM? Here in our world?

      “Zeta Male”, to me, means a man who has seen through the alpha/beta/princess/cumbucket game, and has had enough of it. He is going ghost, or “going Galt”. He listens to the Voices of Authority who say “This is how you must behave to be worthy of a Woman’s Love,” and he laughs and says “How could a woman’s love be worthy of me?? He reads the Masters of Game and their directions of “This is how you must behave to get into women’s pants,” and he laughs again and says “Why should I obsess myself with getting into womens’s pants?”

      He is a man who has his own goals, his own dreams, his own path; and he goes his own way, without caring if anyone follows, without caring who might disagree. He doesn’t seek mastery over others, necessarily; he doesn’t seek “love”; he seeks his own goals and follows his own star.

      I’ve probably fallen short in my description, and I don’t doubt that others will disagree with me or find my writings disagreeable. This is just my own interpretation, and my own ideal.

      • http://www.manwomanmyth.com Perseus

        I like your contribution here very much.

  • Stu

    Ok, so the way I’d see it, is that a Zeta male is a MGTOW and MRA hybrid. Funny, that’s exactly what I’ve been saying for years all men should be lol

  • Stu

    I was using Paul’s template for Zeta when I came up with the MGTOW and MRA hybrid. If a Zeta is the slayer of the feminist monster, then I figure you could be Alpha, Beta, or Omega and still be a Zeta. I’m not saying that you half to be MGTOW and MRA to be a Zeta, but if you are both of those things, that would pretty much make you a Zeta regardless your natural or otherwise leanings towards any of the other labels.

    This could be developed into our own gender theory. A, B and O are female constructs……all men by nature are Zeta, and only the corrupting forces of chivalry and feminism creates the A, B and O deviations and perversion of nature

    • BeijaFlor

      Maybe, Stu, but maybe not.

      The A-B-O identifications were adopted directly from animal ethology, and apply to herd or pack dynamics. I first heard of “alpha male” in those terms, especially as in the “alpha male” of a wolf pack; the alpha being dominant, leader (and of course getting the females), the betas being subordinate unless-and-until one of them rose up and out-fought the alpha, the omegas being on the fringes of the pack (or the herd).

      While we conduct ourselves as a pack or a herd – as the Hominidae have since the beginnings of the genus – A/B/O apply to our social dynamics as well. This continues as valid from extended-family groups, through tribes, to city-states … but now, we have reached to such huge extended groupings, such complex survival mechanisms, that a man can get along in society – but outside of any given pack-mentality social hierarchy.

      The Alpha may lead the pack, the Betas sustain it, the Omegas slink along the fringes, but the Zeta sees them all as just dogs; he is, to allude to Kipling’s Just So Stories, “the cat who walks by himself.”

      Or so I see it – am I off base, anyone?

    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

      Actually, Stu, I include either/or where it concerns MRA and MGTOW. The most severe weapon against feminism is anti-chivalry.

      The MRA attacks the feminist and does battle. The MGTOW, in the truest sense, just walks on.

      Both kill the beast by starving it.

      • http://www.manwomanmyth.com Perseus

        This is good.

  • Lovekraft

    I think Ayn Rand was onto something and her meme has likely seeped into the MRM.

    Defining ourselves apart from societal conventions, while still adhering to noble principles is what I think makes the true Zeta. The artist, in all shapes and sizes.

    The Zeta male can apply this philosophy to social interaction, his finances, his dress/appearance etc etc. The common theme would be to dictate things on his own terms.

    The challenge however is how to fend off the outside pressures, be they family, societal or economic.

    Ultimately, our minds are our last refuge, and woe to any man who surrenders this last crucial piece of territory.

    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam


    • Keyster

      Freedom is NOT a well paying job, a big house, a nice car, a wife and 2.4 children. Status, money and power are constructs waiting for a Navy Seal to put a bullet through their head.

      Work at only what you love to do, or barely work at all.
      Stop contributing to a society that doesn’t appreciate your efforts.

      If you want nice things, a family maybe, you don’t own them, they own you.

  • The Zeta Male (2)

    Thank you!!! I’m speechless!! I am changing my online signature, I have more work to do and thank God I do!

    • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

      yea, changing a name might be beneficial, but take your time! come up with something that represents who you are.

      • ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

        Thank you again Z and I mean that with all my heart. I have done so.

  • ray

    alpha-beta used to be a supermarket and should have stayed thataway

    i hear mrm guys referring to themselves as “beta” and i cringe — part of this being silly p.u.a. jargon and its influence

    when i was a kid, some guys were good at certain things, some at others, but nobody ever thought to refer to someone else as “beta” etc — until feminism took over

    any modern guy that truly is inferior would never oppose the western matriarchies and their massive power . . . thus a “beta” designation — self-imposed or otherwise — is foolishness

    you people are the optimus primes of the future, way above “alpha” whatever that means

    the species has already self-selected for its best men, and you are it

    you’ll see


  • Stu

    But the human species doesn’t select for the best men, females select for the best providers. In order for the best to pass on their traits, they have to be the dominate breeders. Another reason I say that the human race is destined to become dumber the longer feminism is around, because only a dumb fuck would be a dominate breeder in this environment.

    • Keyster

      Women will find themselves very attracted to the John Galts of the world.

      • BeijaFlor

        Well – the Dagny Taggarts of the world will …

        The slatternly slobbery slut-walking sluts? Give ’em dildos.

  • The Enlightener

    What do you think of the following post regarding the “real alpha beta zeta” males:


    Food for thought.

    • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

      Its an interesting point, that the original concept is too narrow by using only alpha and beta, and I think there may be some validity to that. At the same time I have never seen the term Zeta used prior to paul, I didn’t know of its existence. And I am guessing neither did paul.

      I however don’t have a “weak will” do I compromise? Yes, negotiation is part of life. But I don’t compromise on big issues, and don’t compromise myself. Most of my friends will tell you I am a bit of a stubborn ass.

      If zeta is taken out then some other letter would be used, and they would have the same criticism that you can’t simply generate a new class or construct.

      My response is simple: Watch me
      Will it be easy? Nope, Is it possible? Yes. Can I do it alone? Probably not but society has always been based partially on the creation, modification, and manipulation of power dynamics and social structures. Society isn’t only based on sex, and there is more to masculinity than getting women. How will zeta masculinity involve interacting with women in the long run? Should be interesting, but that is not the priority right now. Right now, the idea is to build a consciousness and unity of men willing to add a new gear into the machine of society. Eventually, we will push some old ones out as well….

      • Keyster

        I think it’s already on course to happen, just not defined or recognized. There are virtual Galt’s Gulches all over that need to be unified and propogated. It will take a couple more generations to build a critical mass of men, who’ve simply checked out; enough to where it’s having a noticable impact on production and innovation and advancement.

        • http://riseofthezetamale.blogspot.com The Zeta Male

          I don’t think “going galt” is the best terminology. It normally implies that you tend to cut back based on programs/constructs/etc that you think are immoral/wrong. I am not holding back I am going all in.

      • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

        I was aware of one man, a blogger, who used the term to describe serial killers. I think he went by “raincoaster” But he had no demonstrated providence with the term, no analysis to support its use; it was just more or less made up by all appearances. I queried him prior to writing. It did not go well. :)

        Then if you Google Zeta Male wiki you will get a wiki return for an old sorority:

        “Zeta Phi Beta (ΖΦΒ) is an international, historically black Greek-lettered sorority and a member of the National Pan-Hellenic Council”

        They referred to themselves as “Zeta Males” but it was an organizational reference outside the context of what I wrote about.

        Other than that I found no use of the term at all that predated my writings on the subject. And to my honest knowlege I coined the term in its current context.

    • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

      Is Jeb a part of the paleo traditionalist cancer infecting The Spearhead?

  • Anonymous


    My boss is a forty-something woman, married, and has one child.
    She goes home at 16:30 sharp, every single fucking day,
    and doesn’t put in even a minute of overtime. Never.
    And uses up all of her paid leaves every year no matter what.

    I am male, thirty-four, single, never married, and have never had a child.
    I work 2-3 hours overtime about three times a week, bringing more
    profit to the group she heads than any of my female colleagues
    (all of my colleagues in the group are female and punch out
    at 16:30 sharp every single fucking day).

    One day, I go to my boss to ask if she can reassign one of my
    cases to someone else (i.e., one of my female colleagues who
    leave the office at 16:30 everyday presumably for their yoga
    class, dinner with their gal pals, etc.).

    Her response –

    A condescending snicker followed by
    “er, you know, you gotta work harder.”

    I couldn’t believe what I had just heard as it wasn’t the kind of
    response I was expecting from a person in a managerial position.
    I nonetheless managed to give her a “yes ma’am” response, turn around,
    and get right on it. That was a year or two ago, and it still
    amazes me that she had the audacity to tell the only person in her
    group that works overtime to “work harder.” I have not gone to her since
    to ask if she can adjust my workload as I now know that it will never happen,
    and that their yoga classes, gal pal dinners, time with family etc. takes
    precedence over a whiny man like myself asking undeserved favors.

    This past April, guess who gets promoted.
    My boss of course. For what? Going home at 16:30?
    Routinely using all of her paid leaves to go vacationing with
    her husband and child?

    I suspect none of that is the reason.
    The unspoken reason is that she has a vajayjay.

    Needless to say, a married man with a child would never
    be allowed to work the way she does. Or maybe he would,
    but work like that and get a promotion? I don’t think so.

    I am not misogynistic, but I sure hate how women aren’t just
    issued pussy passes upon birth, but are actually rewarded by
    reason of pussy regardless of their work ethics.

    • BeijaFlor

      Obviously, she was promoted for her

      workgroup’s stellar productivity.

      There wasn’t any one employee noted

      for “service above and beyond the call,”

      so the credit obviously belongs to “the boss.”

      I’m double-spacing this reply, so everyone

      has plenty of room to read between the lines…

    • Keyster

      How would she know you work overtime, if she’s not there to see it?

      “WORK” in the office environment is politics, popularity and “looking like” you do work. It has little to do with productivity or competence. These are things managers can’t be bothered to measure.

      95% of all managers are horrible at managing people.

      • Anonymous

        95%? That is dismal, truly. I sure hope that’s not true, but in any case my current manager is definitely the worst boss I have ever had, male or female.

        She gets a monthly report from HR containing a day-to-day record of when we punched in/out, so she knows I work overtime. And with all the work she hurls my way (while assigning a moderate workload to my female colleagues for whom work is obviously not a priority), she should be able to figure out that I would HAVE TO work overtime just to keep up with deadlines. Assuming she has half a brain, that is. Maybe I am overestimating what’s between her ears.

        Also, as a manager, she is able to access an in-house database on-line to see how much sales we have brought in. So she has all the information at her disposal to figure out who is and isn’t working hard.

        But when I see her gossipping/whispering and giggling with all the other female members in the group, I totally feel like an outcast/slave, and being male, I can’t really say these things out loud, unless I am willing to be branded a whiner and ready to be told to man-up.

        Having a horrible boss may suck, but it truly is a nightmare having a horrible boss who happens to be female, especially if you are male.

        • Kris W

          Start seeing a therapist over this. After a year contact an attorney and take said attorney to HR first. Give the company a fair chance to fix the situation. If they fail try and take them to court.

    • Ed

      Dude, you’re not married and don’t have any kids to support. Quit that fucking job. Tell that twat to get fucked really hard. Tell her you would do it yourself and nail the feminism right out of her, but that would be considered sexual harrassment. No job is worth selling your soul to some feminist.

      • Anonymous

        I’m planning to quit, but I first have to secure my next job, and being in my mid-thirties, job-hunting is proving difficult. Unlike these old hags I work for/with (I’m the youngest in the group), I, being a man, have no one to support me. So while it’s true I don’t have any kids or a wife to support, I have to make a living for myself. But, man, how I would love to tell that twat to get fucked really hard. Would never do it myself though, the thought of that bitch in heat is just too repulsive. Yikes!

        • Ed

          I hear you. Feeling trapped in a job is never fun. Sometimes when I’m feeling bad about my circumstances all I do to feel better is to know that 1. I haven’t been cleaned out financially by some woman and 2. it will never happen. So the next time this twat is being smug with you just know that you have the ability to walk away from her and that you’re not legally married to her!

        • BeijaFlor

          The wise monkey won’t let go of one branch until he has a firm grip on the next branch.

          I hope you find your next handhold soon – in a firm whose corporate culture recognizes your value, and with a supervisory chain made up of fellow men.

    • http://www.manwomanmyth.com Perseus

      Anonymous’ comment is gospel and should be magnified intensely. US credit rating downgraded for the first time in history. Thank you femorrhoid kooks.

  • Ed

    What an awesome article! This describes me TO A TEE. I’m in my late 30’s and have never been married. Even thought I frantically searched for a ‘suitable’ woman for years, the ones that I was attracted to proved to be elusive. I guess this is because a. my dating tactics sucked and b. subconciously I wasn’t going to forfeit my life to subsidize a woman’s life-long shopping spree, and these women picked up on that. In any event, last year I started accepting who I was and liking myself. Articles like this offer affirmations about being me.

    My best friend is, unfortunately, pussy whipped by a feminist. She’s been dropping marriage hints for a long time now. She’s over $10k in the hole in credit card debt and his net worth is in the six figure range. Of course she wants to get married! Me, my friend and this woman are talking in a cafe about marriage and how I have no intention of doing so. She storms off and demands that my friend leaves the table as well. He does. Well, I’ll still be his friend when he’s divorced after five years having absorbed her debt and given up a substantial amount of his assets.

    I, on the other hand, will not learn the hard way. My life is un-complicated and care-free. Last month I had a vascectomy to help ensure it stays that way. Options rock!

    • Lovekraft

      There is nothing wrong with having standards, and in this day and age, it is even more crucial to SCREEN your prospective mate. For me, her morality was central, for if she wavers on key moral issues or even worse, takes a liberal/feminist stance, either it has to change (verifiably), or I move on.

      We MRAs are no longer accepting the second-class status (when all along we are ‘following the rules’) and are in fact beginning to demand things on our own terms.

      If women don’t come around, screw them.

  • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

    I like this description of Zeta. To me, Zeta is simply the rejection of traditional and feminist redefinitions of masculinity. It is freedom of choice to define masculinity for oneself.

    I don’t agree with taking down social institutions, but non-cooperation is a valid form of protest. Destruction of discriminatory systems is the last option available, but it is still an option.

    I don’t entirely agree with objectivism, simply because we need to help other men.

    We have a need for sociologists…we need good propaganda!

    • BeijaFlor

      Denis, let me set your mind at ease about objectivism and “going Galt” …

      People who merely listen to what others say about ATLAS SHRUGGED often get told that “John Galt is all about selfishness.” If you actually read the book, you find out that Galt’s strike was a response to an institutionalized altruism – to a Marxism taken to its logical conclusion: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” The America, the world of ATLAS SHRUGGED gave liberally to those in need and took rapaciously from those of ability.

      The producers, the entrepreneurs, the industrialists – the men who created industries, whose genius and skull-sweat created industries that employed millions at producing goods (real wealth; money is only worth what you can buy with it) that supported billions, who made life more than livable, whose production made life worth living – were bled dry, sacrificed on the “Altar of Altruism,” scorned and reviled by “The Opinion Masters,” regulated within an inch of their corporate lives by the government; and their companies taxed and oppressed, finally, out of existence.

      Does that sound kind of like Marriage 2.0?

      To return to Galt, and objectivism, we find that the guiding principles of “Galt’s Gulch” are justice, rather than altruism; trading value for value, rather than forced “charity” and mooching; rewarding ability, rather than rewarding inability and “neediness.” To the person who won’t produce, that’s a harsh, unpitying and ‘uncaring’ environment. You were expected, in Galt’s Gulch, to earn your own keep. But to the producer, to the person who will work to earn his own way, it’s “The Real Deal!”

      And there are values other than money … we have some right here. We get ideas here and give our ideas back in return. We give our help to AVfM, and other MRM sites, to make them grow and get stronger; not out of altruism, but because we find value in it. And we give, we strive, to defend our values; to defend them in the courts, in the streets, in the “Court Of Public Opinion”.

      Contrast this with altruism, as it’s taught and practiced today – the institutionalized doctrine that “you who can climb should push up those who can’t; you should be ashamed of your ability; you should regard others’ needs as a superior claim, and, furthermore, you should abase yourself before those who present themselves as needy.”

      Would you rather be altruistic, now, or objectivist?

      • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

        I’m generally a libertarian, but I’m also skeptical of black and white thinking, especially when there is such a great disparity to our current cultural zeitgeist. I don’t like big government pushing “equality”, but if that’s the way it is then men should be should be equally represented and equally funded. If we are dealing with a fascist government then we need a union of men.

        I know unions are a dirty word because they have become corrupted and closed businesses with their greed. In the early days, unions greatly improved the working conditions of average men and gave many average men a chance at a better life. If we are looking for numbers we should be representing the bottom of the pyramid and not the top. It’s not the top of the pyramid that are on the streets and can’t afford lawyers.

        I used to think that I was indecisive, but now I’m not so sure.

  • Zuberi

    No thanks! I am not an Alpha, nor a Beta, nor a Zeta. I am my own man an that’s good enough for me….

    • BeijaFlor

      Dammit, Zuberi, that’s good enough for me too!

      Here’s to the men who are “their own men!”

  • AlekNovy

    I love the concept of a zeta male but the name isn’t fitting. It suggests that you’re still on the same spectrum as the alphas and betas.

    We need a completely new spectrum that runs parallel to the alphabet soup, but isn’t part of it.

  • OldNerdGuy

    I was glad to come across this article. I, too, see myself as something other than an Alpha (dominant in groups) or Beta (trying one’s best to please others). I don’t do either one of those.

    There’s also an interesting article by Vox Day (“Explaining Sigma. Again.”) that laments Roissy’s two-category alpha/beta system, and introduces a type for outsiders: Sigma. It’s similar to Zeta, except that Sigma is specifically defined as one that does, in fact, get laid. I find this useful. (On the other hand, I find that Vox Day’s definition of Delta duplicates what others generally call Beta.)

    Considering that getting laid is the main reason anyone even talks about alpha/beta, and considering the need to identify people outside the usual alpha/beta behavior patterns, would it be reasonable to synthesize the various definitions as follows?

    Men within the social game:

    Alpha male – gets laid often, has choices, including hotties.
    Beta male – gets laid seldom (except w/steady gf), fewer choices.
    Gamma male – rarely or never gets laid.

    Men outside the social game:

    Sigma male – gets laid often, has choices, including hotties.
    Zeta male – gets laid seldom (except w/steady gf), fewer choices.
    Omega male – rarely or never gets laid.

    Perhaps Zeta is meant to include the whole spectrum of those “outside the game”? Even so, I still think it’s useful to label those at the extremes of sexual results (sigma/omega).

    I would appreciate any opinions as to whether or not this makes sense.

    • SmokerJake

      The omegas in your example would be the men who get sent to battle and have the chance to sleep with women upon glory in battle. They are the gamblers of life who profit most from extreme conflicts and stabbing in the back. I would say they have a meta-game, but it depends on a non-game system to be in place that supports the necessary freedoms. Otherwise they are a slave class.

  • Robert Full Of Rage

    I think if I hear “be a man” one more time I am going to lose my mind. I hope more men stop buying into this “be a man” garbage. There is an organization in my area that dedicates itself to turning men into white knights and manginas. It is very disgusting. I don’t give a fuck about caring for women and children. I was not put on this Earth to serve other people. All you men and women who attack me with shaming language can kiss my white, naked ass!

    • JulioCG

      Actually, that’s exactly why you’re on this earth. Sorry to break it to you.

  • SmokerJake

    Great article. This of course would apply to presumptive commands by and expectations of other males.

  • tobymo901

    With all due respect to The Zeta Male, unless I’m missing something, the zeta ideology seems to be BS! From what I gather, to be a zeta male is to basically deny or reject human nature. Do men perform chivalrous acts because society says so or is there just something in us that compels us to come to a woman’s aide or rescue? In order for society to accept chivalry as proper behavior it had to see it first. What prompted the very first acts of chivalry? My guess would be nature. How can one “abstain” from the game when your natural instinct is to interact with women? And lets be sensible, heterosexual men don’t interact with women the same as other men. And HELLO! There are some things in life that men have to do simply because you are the man. Eg: You’re out in a first date and a tire blows out on HER CAR. Who changes the tire? It just seems to me that if zeta male doesn’t bend to the will of society, he would be compelled to bend yo the will of his own human nature.

  • JulioCG

    I don’t feel that the Zeta male is the answer. His illness is the same that plagues most of society-abandonment of traditional values. If we just went back to the way things were, the way they’ve always been, society would be much better. That does not mean that women can’t vote, that women shouldn’t be allowed to work outside of the home. It doesn’t mean that men shouldn’t get to be stay-at-home fathers if they want to be. It just means that they have to be willing to take the roles that nature has prepared us for. A man must be willing to sacrifice anything for his family. Selfishness only extends to necessity-you would save your child, your mother, your wife before anyone else’s-but not to will-you must save as many people possible, and if it’s family, you MUST lay down your life if necessary. A man is upfront. A man is loyal. A man is a protector of society and of family. A man is wise and virtuous, strong and brave, humble though powerful. Indeed, while women may be “human-beings” (I’m not quite sure about that; it’s hard to decide the morality of a completely different creature), men most definitely aren’t. Men are human-doings. A man who won’t protect his family is an oxymoron. A man who is not virtuous does not exist.
    The “Zeta male” is exactly that. An impossibility. To shirk your responsibility makes you not a man. It makes you only Zeta.

    I’ve heard many people say that I’m romanticizing manhood. That it is not that glamorous. First off, I never said it was glamorous. A man expects only love from his family, and respect from society. The rest is a bonus. Second, this is not a dream. This is reality, something men have been living for years, something I am living first hand. As the only male in the house, I have taken it upon myself to provide as necessary and to be able to protect and care for my mother and sister. This is not bragging. It is simply stating what every respectable man I know has done. I have done what I must, and I am happy. My mother loves me. My sister loves me. My girlfriend and my friend love me. I need nothing else. So long as I can protect them, and they give me the love that is due to me, I will be grateful both to them and to the good Lord above for everything I have.

    • Andrew Richards

      Warren Farrell already summed up the glaring flaw with your argument when he said:

      “The single biggest barrier to getting men to look within is that what
      any other group would call powerlessness, men have been taught to call
      power. We don’t call “male-killing” sexism; we call it “glory.” We don’t
      call the one million men who were killed or maimed in one battle in
      World War I (the Battle of the Somme) a holocaust, we call it “serving
      the country.” We don’t call those who selected only men to die
      “murderers.” We call them “voters.” Our slogan for women is “A Woman’s
      Body, A Woman’s Choice”; our slogan for men is “A Man’s Gotta Do What a
      Man’s Gotta Do.”

  • cuatezon

    Alpha-Beta male myth has been propagated on society for years. I believe its a modern plague playing on the fears of men to pit men against each other, hyper-competing for irrelevant, trivial social status. While men are pitted against each other, women network, collaborate, organize against men. Then you throw in growing number of Manginas and men wake up in a society where they are battered & behind in every area. Interestingly enough, many scientific studies show that ‘Alpha males’ have the highest levels of stress hormone & other issues that will lead to their demise. The Zeta way is to avoid all this nonsense and make your own way in this world. However, IMO, I feel its important that while we do make our own way in the world we don’t lose our humanity. We need to be strong, be proactive, be vigilant…yet we don’t want to lower ourselves to the trashy level of feminists.

  • Otter

    He is a Ronin not of the pack.

  • Tristan

    The message is clear and thou will awaken. Leave the herd and become enlighten. Thou has a choice-seft.

  • Tristan

    Not to mention there is a 50% divorce rate and of said rate 70% of them are initiated by women. The laws and court system are designed to fuck men of everything he has.


    Here’s a link of a MGTOW explaining why he made that choice. Very chilling stories he has to tell of actual events that happened in his social circle that send chills down my spine.

    I highly recommend subscribing to “theignoredgender” and “barbarossaaaa” channel on Youtube or the very least check them out. They dedicate their channel to preach and advocate anti-feminism and Men’s Rights and they both are very educated, well rounded individuals and well spoken. I’ve seen most of their videos and I guarantee you won’t regret it.

    Here is a taste of what they have to offer.
    theignoredgender channel:
    Chivalry explained:

    barbarossaaaa channel:
    Is Female Biology Inherently Feminist?

    Check out their other videos because they deserve to have their voices heard. Men, we need to wake up and learn the truth!

    I am thankful I’ve come across these valuable information and have awaken. I have removed myself from the corrupted and evil system and have no plan to play in their games. I’m a MGTOW.

    Note: I realized I probably should have posted this in a different section but since I’ve already compiled a list of text and videos, might as well leave it here.

  • Tristan

    Marriage is like playing Russian Roulette, the only difference is, there is a 50/50 chance of ending your life. Of the 50% chance of a divorce, 70% of them are initiated by women. I’ve taken into account all the evidence and testimonies and weighed the pros and cons of a relationship/ultimately marriage and the risks far outweigh the pros for me to take that chance. Based on my findings, I’ve decided to be a MGTOW. My hope is to get this message heard by all men. They have the right to know about the truth so they can wake up from their sleep.

  • Tristan

    A must watch!
    One will be enlighten after watching this.

  • MGTOW-man

    “We don’t change ourselves for women, especially when it comes to relationships. If you don’t want to be with us for who we are, then you have no respect for us, and we don’t want to be with you. My time may be split to be with you, but my passions will not die for you.”

    Well said! Way to go!

    Imagine the eyes of feminist women when they are made to realize that respect is a two-way street.

  • woopwoop

    You really don’t see any common ground with feminism after writing a post like this? This is a standard Feminism 101 blog post, if you just take out the last couple of paragraphs which strangely blames women for the existence of gender roles.

    • http://feministlies.wordpress.com/ Theaverageman

      This post explores how gynocentrism has trapped men in their gender roles and the author makes mention to how men are also responsible for trapping other men.Your “just like the feminists” argument is invalid.

  • Zeta

    Zeta Male, outstanding concept. We are ‘truth’ motivated. Alpha males, who forfeit they’re virtue, to females- have nothing but my contempt, and it is sooooo common- in corporate America. Alpha males are bullies, bullies are scared and insecure- and usually simple minded which makes them vulnerable to female manipulation, who are just as simple minded. The key point is that they, think nobody can understand what’s going on, Zeta males stand to the side and observe, and realize how interesting the prospect is – in helping bring down these alpha males, which needs to be done. Good work!

  • Zeta

    Id like to share a true life experience. I was downstream, to an ‘alpha male subservient to a female’ situation, for sometime, at work. Alpha males, are resourceful in using 3rd party’s to do what they don’t have the guts to do, and usually this is driven by this female, or at least initiated. So, here come the alpha male’s cronies, the betas- it’s as if all these people have no responsibility to produce, or do they’re job- just constant mobbing and targeting co-workers to keep power, and makes sure things are done they’re way- and in they’re personal best interests. Now, me being the classic Zeta, sees right through this- and I think, I think, I think and I plan – and anticipate the next move- and workout the most debilitating response to inflict max damage on alpha males’ ego and stature- and here’s the key- in front of as many people as possible!, all in the spirit being fair and non-assuming and even docile to a point. When you have the moral high ground and you know it- 1000 beta male cronies cant beat you- and these betas are the ones who’s respect and trust you will earn, for in actuality they want to be Zeta’s but are afraid.

    Needless to say, I have become SO good at my role, I strike fear in the hearts of these alpha males, as not only am I tactically proficient, I have strategic genius. Remember, when you are on top only place to go is – down, This is your leverage, against the alpha- and they need to be reminded again and again of this. Manipulative females use this leverage, and seducing the alpha to make a successful or unsuccessful attempt- of intimacy – is in it’s essence illegitimate in one form or another in the work place- or at least after has happened the female convinces, the alpha that attempted this- that she can turn it illegitimate. This is the point of no return, for the alpha- he either stands up- and let’s the chips fall where they may- or he cows. Once he cows- it’s all over. The Zeta male, would call the bluff and not be afraid to go down- that’s what makes a Zeta male what he is- he isn’t afraid of failure- alpha and beta males are petrified of failure- and huddle together like frightened rabbits. Zeta males, see and understand they’re fear more than they do, this give the Zeta the strength and purpose of cause to be Zetas’ It’s truly an honorable way to be.

    Ill go as far to say that they real ‘greats’ of the world are Zeta’s not alphas. Ronald Reagan was a Zeta, not an alpha – the pioneers that settled our country are Zetas, and I would go as far as to say Jesus Christ was a zeta- where his persecutors were from the alpha controlled establishment. I think this is a fair – analogy. I don’t think the Zeta concept is new- just that it has been abandoned, not due to quest for power, but fear not to stay protected by the power shell. I think, this type of man you are is formed early in life.

    • Seaghn White

      Being a self identified Zeta since I discovered the terminology, in the same way as I began to identify myself as atheist when I discovered the term and definition, I can’t say that I have ever found a need or real desire to take someone down. Isn’t that more the role of the beta male, to subvert the alpha to gain standing?

  • Terminal Meme

    How about Zeta Male being a male who doesn’t relate with women at all, period. He doesn’t date, marry, work with, comfort, advise, listen to, help etc… He is a MGHOW that is celibate and entirely ignores and tracks away from women privately and professionally as much as he possible can.
    I try to only speak with 3 women on this planet, my 50 year old married-with-child accountant, my 67 year old Aunt, and my mother. I could care less about responding to ALL other women including my cousins, brothers’ wives, clients, strangers, women in uniform, waitresses, cashiers etc…
    I’m a shop owner. When women walk in, I rarely even get out of my chair. When questioned about my products by women, I politely give straight forward answers (after all, I have to make a living). That’s it! I don’t flirt or ask about the weather or become lured into other conversations about all the bullshit they want male affirmations on. It’s one thing to pay lip service to a bitch (to get a sale) and quite another to gladly engage their psyche.
    When I’m not on the clock, you can bet money that I’m even less concerned or engaged by women.
    Its pretty much impossible to never address or make eye contact with a woman or I would do that. Sadly, they are all over the place. Just give one word answers and walk away. Always say NO
    All you posers who cheer MGTOW, I see you out there holding doors and getting led on a leash by women so get some balls and tell em whats up. Leave the bitch. NAWALT’s are like Unicorns–they are not real.

  • driversuz

    You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (spam). [Ref: 4572]

  • Icela

    doing something because you’re ‘the man’ can actually just be a recognition of your male privilege mixed with kindness. for example – a girl fell off her bike into the ocean yesterday and a dude, because he was ‘the/a man’, stripped down and dove in to retrieve her bike. he had the strength to do it. it’s a very nice way to share your power and coincidentally, very attractive.

    • Bryan Scandrett

      Bullshit. Please don’t preach feminist doctrine here. You’re welcome to join the conversation but only as a rational human with a healthy respect for logic and all humans regardless of gender.

      • Icela

        which part is bullshit? I’m really not sure what you mean, because this really happened.

        which part is feminist, as well?

        I consider myself an equalist.

        • Bryan Scandrett

          Male privilege is feminist doctrine and utter bullshit. If a woman can go online and abuse, insult and shame a man, and that man cannot reach out and control her behaviour, then there is no patriarchy or male privilege. Where is this supposed male power if we can’t shoo the annoying.
          Women consistently control men with accusations and proxy violence of the state to lock men away or simply destroy their lives and good names and men have no recourse what so ever. That’s called false accusations. I’m sitting in a hovel right now as the woman I loved wanted me gone so RAPE. Bullshit privilege.

          It was a fucking bicycle. Women in general are capable of picking up a bicycle.
          What you witnessed is the cultural normative sexism of any time it’s a bit icky or cold or nasty, men do it to shield women.
          So you turn that into privilege while getting you jollies objectifying a man as meat.
          At AVfM! A male safe space.
          Out fucking standing.

          • Icela

            The male privilege I was referring to in my example was physical, actual privilege – being stronger, bigger. Quite simply.

            There is no abuse here, no shame – just a real story that happened on Sunday. Maybe the internet is a Wild West where these annoying women can’t be wrangled.

            I have no idea what you’re talking about with the hovel…

            None of us were physically capable of diving into the ocean to retrieve the bike, especially not the woman in shock who had fallen in.

            Objectifying a man as meat… I’m vegan no thanks.

          • Peter Wright

            @Icela: “The male privilege I was referring to in my example was physical, actual privilege – being stronger, bigger. Quite simply.”

            Oh come on. Everyone knows that in a chivalrous environment female weakness is the ultimate priviledge – it garners all sorts of attentions, support, protections, money, you name it. Physical strength on the contrary is routinely demonized as dangerous, brutal, rapey….. a burden not a privilege.

          • Icela

            in a ‘chivalrous enviornment’? where are these magical places?!
            …certainly not this boys’ club

          • Peter Wright

            Where are these magical places? Everywhere outside of your head dear.

          • Icela

            so then why are women still paid less for the same positions, statistically?

          • driversuz

            Because they work fewer hours and they work fewer years, and in some cases it’s because women don’t have the nerve to negotiate higher salaries (which incidentally does not bode well for their future productivity in competitive fields.)

          • Peter Wright

            Hmmm, I wonder why she’s not commenting anymore? I thought the spanking was going just fine.

          • Bryan Scandrett

            Making me feel better too

          • Peter Wright

            Because they are lazier than males, statistically speaking.

          • Andrew Richards

            @IcelaLux:disqus Actually the wage gap has been credibly debunked numerous times; when roughly 25 different factors are taken into account (profession, continuous workplace experience, hours worked, commute time, relocation, people negotiating their own salary, how hazardous the work is, etc) the disparity has been found to range from between women earning roughly 95% of what women do, to men earning 95% of what women do.

            Instead of trying to pass off evidence by citation as the credible basis of an argument, I strongly put it to you that you actually need to engage in some critical thinking and research of your own next time, before posting in a manner which simply harms your credibility.

          • Bryan Scandrett

            It’s a work gap, not a pay gap.

          • driversuz

            The queen mod and our most popular writer here, both happen to be women. Nice try, Bimbo.

          • Icela

            name calling. super chivalrous.

          • driversuz

            That ain’t chivalry, dear; that’s an older woman telling a spoiled brat she’s full of shit.

          • Bryan Scandrett

            Chivalry isn’t tolerated here, nothing but female privilege.

          • Bryan Scandrett

            Now you’re cottoning on. This is a male safe space. One of the few on the planet. It’s not a boys club as there are many women here. Smart ones.
            So men bad, women good, does not fly here.
            I reiterate, read the comment policy and follow the rules for rational conversation or leave.

          • Icela

            is name calling included in your comment policy?

          • Bryan Scandrett

            What names did I call you or anyone?

          • Bryan Scandrett

            Male privilege means a lot more than males are generally stronger and I’m not sure it’s a privilege to be culturally expected to use that in obligatory service to the pampered. Privilege = pampering. Or do you see it that we are privileged to pamper women?

            ‘None of us were physically capable of diving into the ocean to retrieve
            the bike, especially not the woman in shock who had fallen in.’
            A feminist gynocentric excuse. If a child was in a child seat on the bike? How about now?
            The hovel is the shit hole I now live in because the ex took the house I spent my life paying for for her. Some privilege.
            And no you’re not a vegan when it comes to men.

          • driversuz

            ” I’m vegan no thanks.”
            Of course you are. A feminist indoctrinated vegan gynocentrist, perfectly content to make damn good use of any man while looking down your pampered powdered nose at him.

            Trying hard here, to think up a better example of hypocrisy.

          • Andrew Richards

            @IcelaLux:disqus So what you’re saying is that contrary to the delusions with you and the whole of feminism seem to share, you actually have no idea what privilege actually is. The fact is that both male privilege and female privilege exist and are most certainly powerful forces in how society is engineered. However “privilege” has nothing to do with acting with impunity and in fact, is actually analogous to the “privilege” which prisoners receive in prisons.

            What is the purpose of privileges in prison? To reinforce, epitomise, normalise and glorify an expected set of behavioural norms. If a prisoner behaves in the manner expected, they are privileged; the moment said prisoner deviates sufficiently from said behavioural norms, their privileged status is revoked.

            The same holds true with gender privilege and there are countless examples of it. In the case of male privilege, it exists to reinforce, epitomise, normalise and glorify the role of the male, sex addicted, disposable protector and provider. In the case of female privilege, it exists to reinforce, epitomise, normalise and glorify the paternalised and infantalised female human breeding machine.

            Feminism might claim to think it espouses this, however it is deluded – true patriarchy is unable to exist in a society where both men and women are prisoner to a survivalist and eugenically-driven social engineering based imperative.

            It is for this reason that feminist understandings of gender and privilege, will never be anything more than baseless mental masturbation. If you truly want to properly understand gender and privilege, then I strongly put it to you that you need to unlearn what you have learned.

        • driversuz

          Oh please. An “equalist” who believes in “Male Privilege?”
          Has it occurred to you that perhaps it is because of your female privilege that you can even use such a bigoted term without being hounded off the whole internet as if you were waving a Confederate flag? Or are you so blind to your “privilege” that you don’t even recognize the utter dismissal of male humanity in the patently ludicrous concept of Male Privilege?

          From where I’m sitting, THE male privilege throughout the history of our species has been to sacrifice in order to protect and provide for (guess who?) women – the people you presume to lack “privilege.”

          Are you stupid or are you a troll?

          • Icela

            Yes, an equalist can hold views that have not yet come to fruition.

            And it appears as though I am being hounded for using the term.

          • Peter Wright

            Looks like you are getting a royal spanking here Icela….. straight out of 50 shades of gray.

          • Peter Wright

            #Spankafeminist 😊 😊

          • driversuz

            Um, no. The “problematic” term is “male privilege.” By believing it exists, you perpetuate INequality. It must be frustrating to wish for “equality” while behaving in ways that ensure it will never happen.

          • Icela

            Male privilege is not something I believe exists – it’s a mathematical fact – tally up how much men make in comparison to women, who is in power, and who gets raped and murdered more, and how about the dairy industry?

            Wishing for equality… no, I live equality.

            Women who deny male privilege are just seeking male validation from a different direction.

          • driversuz

            Men “in power” do exactly what “powerless” women tell them to do. The wage gap is a myth. Men are raped and murdered far more often than women.

            Um, what kind of “mathematics” are you using?

          • Andrew Richards

            @IcelaLux:disqus So what you’re saying is that you see much, yet comprehend nothing, Firstly you point out the number of men at the top- my response is twofold – firstly, to point out that when it comes to the most undesirable jobs- the dirty, the hazardous and the life threatening, they are overwhelmingly performed by men, with feminism showing absolutely no desire to achieve gender parity there- hardly surprising when feminism does nothing but perpetuate and obfuscate the existence of female privilege.

            Secondly, the actual numbers of men and women in government and corporations is of far lesser importance than which gender they serve the interests of and how they receive their power. The fact is that women on average make up half the voting population, meaning that women chose to elect those males into power to begin with, a fact that is far from lost on said elected individuals when they pass gender-specific legislation designed to benefit women – such as VAWA and employment quotas, including family court laws requiring underage boys who are raped to pay child support to female pedophiles. Furthermore, women account for the vast majority of consumers when in comes to the percentage of household spending power, meaning that for said companies and corporations to survive, they must do so by primarily catering to women’s needs in order to survive as a business.

            In short, if it hasn’t already become apparent to you, your superficial arguments simply aren’t going to cut it here and will only serve as an exercise of you killing your own creibility. For the sake of your own credibility, I would strongly advise you to take a step back form the keyboard and actually engage in some critical reflection and research before engaging in an argument you are ill-prepared for.

          • driversuz

            She’s trolling for a reaction. She actually cited the dairy industry as an example of male privilege (mathematically so, in fact!) She couldn’t possibly be that stupid and still be capable of navigating a keyboard.

          • Andrew Richards

            @driversuz:disqus Which is precisely why I’m giving her the reaction she doesn’t want to kill off her credibility.

          • Bryan Scandrett

            You have never tallied anything Icela. You are simply regurgitating femfiction as fact.
            Do some fucking actual research of your own and discover Murry Strauss who has been faithfully documenting feminist pseudoscience for decades. They have been publishing false threat narratives for decades.

          • Andrew Richards

            @IcelaLux:disqus Oh and fyi, even the CDC’s own data for the 2010 NIPSVS revealed that in the previous 12 month, half of all rape victims were men and that roughly 80% of male rape victims had been raped by a female rapists. Furthermore it is men who are the primary victims of homicide, deaths in war, workplace fatalities (which in cases like the building of the Panama Canal, equate to genocide). Even more interesting is that the largest ever peer reviewed study into domestic violence in the word to date, the P.A.S.K. found that the majority of domestic violence victims are actually male and the majority of batterers are actually female.

            But then why let reality, actual egalitarianism and the facts get in the way of your gendered, chauvinistic, child abuse enabling, rape enabling, homicide enabling and DV enabling dogma, right?

          • Robert Douglas

            Men get raped nearly as often as women and men are murdered FAR ore often than women.

          • Bryan Scandrett

            No one is hounding you. You came here to our site and talked shit and got called on it. Like a fucking adult. The hounding charge is nothing but a female using her female privilege to control the tone and silence those calling her out. Surprised you haven’t called it misogyny to criticise a woman and characterise it as an attack against women and children as feminists usually do. All while ignoring your privilege to do so.
            It’s a good thing irony doesn’t have a lethal dose or we wouldn’t have to worry about feminism.

            Again, this is covered in the comment policy.

          • Andrew Richards

            @IcelaLux:disqus Actually, the term is egalitarian, and no, you’re not an egalitarian, you’re clearly a dyed in the wool feminist who like so many other feminists, labours under the delusion that feminism is about equality, when in fact it has only ever been about, initially advancing the status of women and then once all the major boxes became ticked, about advancing female privilege and misandry.

            Of course feel free to challenge me on that point; I have a whole laundry list of examples of how feminism is utterly divorced from gender equality.

    • Robert Douglas

      I think what Bryan is objecting to is that, in the way you phrased your comment, you made a construct there that it is the male’s responsibility to behave in a chivalric manner simply because he’s the male. If I help someone out in a situation like that, it’s not because it’s my responsibility as a male, it’s because I was raised to be a compassionate and considerate person by my parents. I know the reaction may seem overly vitriolic, but your comment was a perfect illustration of what we’re arguing against in this forum. But, that’s okay in that we need topics of discussion like this if we’re going to illustrate our problems with traditional gender roles. We, and I hope I’m not speaking out of turn for the other readers here, are upset that feminism has created a world in which women are to have freedom and choice, where men are to have obligation and consequence. Your comment robs us f the agency to make a choice t be a kind, compassionate person and instead, saddles us what the obligation to “do the right thing” as a male. And then, you described our obligation and lack of choice as “attractive.” Can you see where we’re coming from in our objection to things being framed in this way?

  • driversuz

    You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (general attack, trolling and general contempt for the work AVfM does). [Ref: 3614]

    Additional remarks:

    No, the wind changed. You smell yourself. Don’t bring it in here.