Broken women on men and fatherhood

I was in the AVFM forums and one of the members posted an article by Michele Weldon, “When Children Are Better off Fatherless.” It was one of a series of articles in the New York Times addressing the question “What Are Fathers For?” with titles like “Valuable, but not Indispensable,” and “Fathers Need Their Children.” And yes, these two articles are as insidious as they sound, Happy Father’s Day.

I proceeded to read the article without seeing who this author was or what her background is but it did not take me long to develop a profile in my mind.

Somewhere in her history she was abused or disaffected. This resonates throughout her writing and her tone toward fathers and men in general. She spent the entire article surreptitiously defending her own situation as a single mother who raised three children.

Ironically, I happened to talk to my wife about this paradigm; one in which broken human beings have an inordinate influence in our politics, media and lives. The analysis I gave my wife was that the vast majority of people are functional, and then we have this minority of men and women who are not. What I find incredibly disconcerting is that in most cases we pander to broken women like children without actually addressing the underlying dysfunction and often alienate the men to the point they end up committing suicide or land in jail.

Lately it seems every time I read women’s writings on domestic violence, rape, parenting — and particularly men and fatherhood — the reality hits home that many of these women are not in it to solve the real problems that impact our lives and families, but to perpetuate their original violation and victimhood or to gain recompense for it. Often this centers around men.

Now back to that article; empty your bladder, move all wet materials away from your chair and swallow anything you may have in your mouth.

Right out of the block Ms. Weldon gives us the stats of 24 million fatherless children and conjectures caution that these children are not “doomed,” then after a bit of detail she proceeds to caution our society not to assume these children are “damned.”


“The 24 million American sons and daughters growing up without fathers are not all doomed. Nor are the children of lesbian parents. Nor the children whose fathers were killed in the line of duty as policemen, firemen, soldiers. Nor the children who have lost fathers to disease, accidents or suicide. Our society must be careful not to assume these sons and daughters are damned.”

Well that pretty much sums up her perspective on society and how they view these children, but please keep in mind she is contributing to a series of articles on what men are good for. I view this as some ground work for further dastardly deeds directed towards men and fathers and she does not disappoint.

“In the cases where the father is far from heroic – even abusive – his absence is also the absence of the chaos, anger, pain and disruption he would bring to his family. Americans encourage women to leave abusive partners, but mothers who do this end up in a class we shame and pity. The government itself sends the message that children are better off with a father. The reality is, many children are better off without their fathers.”

What on earth is the standard for a father being heroic, let alone relating a less than heroic father to abuse? Obviously an abusive father or mother should not be parenting. Further, I won’t speculate on why or what her motive may be to cite a positive government program which provides resources to fathers — and then implicitly dismisses it in the next sentence.

Then there is the final gem that “many” children are better off without their fathers. How many exactly is “many?” Is it a few, some, most? This whole statement sounds like fathers should just pack their bags and head for the coal mines.

Paul Elam wrote an article two years ago that continues to get a great deal of attention. It is about “evidence” by citation and other tactics that feminist ideologues use to control and corrupt the flow of information and data from research. If you have not read it, please check it out because it certainly did not reach Ms. Weldon, who cited Michael Lamb, a Cambridge psychologist, and Joseph Pleck of the University of Illinois to support her assertion that “many” children are better off without fathers.

“Michael Lamb, a Cambridge psychologist, wrote in 2010, “We think it is misguided to see increased paternal involvement as a universally desirable goal.”

“In the 2013 book “Fathers in Cultural Context,” Joseph Pleck of the University of Illinois writes: “The notion that fathering is essential to children’s social and personality development seems to be a uniquely American preoccupation. Current research actually provides little support for … this popular conception of paternal essentiality.”

It just so happens one of her readers (Brian) may have read the piece by Elam and corrected her in the comments section with a well-articulated response:

“Some of us have read Lamb AND Pleck; and this is a highly partial, even distorting use of their research conclusions. I wonder if the Times ought not to go to them to ask for their contribution to see if they agree with the way they are being characterized and over-read by journalists to provide the indifferent conception of fathers here.”

I have not read these two individual’s writings but you can find the rest of Brian’s response in the comments section of the article linked bellow.

Then my intuition noted in the beginning of this article is confirmed when Ms. Weldon tells us a little about her story

“The myth is personal to my family, because I raised my sons as a single mother. And they are not doomed because of that.”

So now it is a myth that children need their fathers because Ms. Weldon has “successfully” raised her three sons without one.

She continues her theme of fathers-are-not-needed when she quotes Will Smith in a scene from “The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air”.

“In time for Father’s Day movie bonding, Will Smith stars in “After Earth” with his real-life son, Jaden. But a 1994 episode of “Fresh Prince of Bel-Air” shows a much younger Will Smith in a scene that is more real to many American boys. The Smith character’s father runs out on a promise to take his son on a trip, and Smith shouts: “I’m gonna get through college without him. I’m gonna get a great job without him and marry me a beautiful honey and have me a whole bunch of kids. And I’m gonna be a better father than he ever was.” And then he chokes, “How come he don’t want me, man?”

Then she goes on to write this:

“I know there is no possible answer to that question. But I also know it is time to stop damning the children who need to ask.”

Do you see a little projection going on here? This article has nothing to do with “what are fathers for” or what is in the best interest of children but a lot to do with Ms. Weldon’s need to solidify her own situation and maybe, just maybe, dish out some payback to the menz because of her failed relationship with her children’s father.

Herein is a classic case in which a woman who has experienced a broken marriage chooses to express her circumstance as litmus of fatherhood and provides examples from a sitcom to support her case that fathers are neither good nor needed.

What is even more disturbing is the New York Times lets this pass as legitimate commentary in their newspaper.

About D.D.Harper

D.D.Harper (Grumpy Old Man) is a 51 year old Father and Husband with passion for his children’s future. He is a retired 30 year combat veteran and has held middle and Sr. leadership and management positions in addition to mentoring and counseling young adults. His educational background is in Workforce Education and Development, and Instructor of Technology. Currently retired and enjoying the good life.

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  • GQuan

    “What I find incredibly disconcerting is that in most cases we pander to broken women like children without actually addressing the underlying dysfunction”.

    Because we’re afraid. I worked that out some time ago. Society in general is afraid of these women because it doesn’t know what to do about them. The mechanisms for removing a toxic woman don’t exist. I wonder if that’s due to the instinctive understanding of women as the limiting factor in reproduction – you don’t get rid of a (fertile) woman if you can help it. A man plays up, there are mechanisms for getting rid of him; run him out of the village. Male worth isn’t tied to reproductive capacity but to a man’s ability to provide for others and keep things working – a disruptive male by definition is reducing his own social worth, so getting rid of him isn’t anything to angst over. But women? If she acts up, what can you do?

    Also, as someone who was raised in a emotionally abusive household…I know how a person freezes at the very thought of contradicting or standing up to a dysfunctional woman. We don’t know how.

    • Niku

      I feel you in the last paragraph. In my case, I knew she would’ve just made my life so much worse if I stood up to her.

  • TPH

    Unfortunately the NYT has a track record of giving voice to man/father bashing writers. The analysis of the article was great Grumpy! I thoroughly enjoyed it.

    • Grumpy Old Man

      thx mucho!

  • malcolm

    The effects of fatherlessness are well documented.
    What you say is true, many broken women are very influential feminists and use the platform to demean men in whatever way they can. Women who work in women’s shelters see the effects of violence on women and this affects their outlook on life and their attitudes towards men. Men become their enemy, and they can’t hide their contempt, they lose all impartiality and their judgement suffers badly. Sadly these are the type of women who strive for leadership roles in their organizations.

  • aimeemcgee

    I’ve observed one thing that irks me more than anything in the self-serving victim blaming. The extrapolation of personal experience to wider societal outcomes.
    I know my experience as a woman is also influenced by loads of non gender related factors and I would never presume to say I was representative

    • Bewildered

      Remember how it all started —- making the personal political !

      The funny thing is any contrary evidence presented to them is called ‘anectodal’

      I would never presume to say I was representative

      You need to be ‘NPD free’ to realize that !

  • cyberxen

    I think the question is – who needs mothers? Numerous studies have shown that if a child has to live in a single parent household that they fare much better being with their fathers. Add to that that mothers commit the majority of child abuse. Also note the existence of child support, which is overwhelmingly paid by fathers, indicating that children would also benefit from a higher standard of living if the burden of having to subsidize the mother was removed.

    • Bewildered

      Stop using patriarchal logic and oppressing poor women !

  • Mark Trueblood

    It goes without saying that the possibility one has experienced abuse in the past does not justify being an abusive person in the present.

    I don’t think you were saying that, just wanted to clarify.

  • Flower of Carnage

    Cyberxen…Please could you back up your comment “Mothers commit the majority of child abuse” with evidence? I’m sorry, but I don’t consider “Numerous studies” enough to convince me this is the case. Many thanks.

    • Peter Wright (Tawil)

      @Flower of Carnage: “Please could you back up your comment “Mothers commit the majority of child abuse” with evidence”

      I can help with that. Here are official government figures for the USA and Australia. Comparable figures appear in all countries around the world, which you can find if you search for them.

      Mothers have always been the primary child abusers of children – it’s a well known fact by everyone with a serious interest in discovering who commits domestic violence and abuse. Those who don’t know about it are usually those who satisfy themselves with groupthink, stereotypes, propoganda etc. and who dont bother to study and real facts.

      Hope that helps you.

      • OneHundredPercentCotton

        May I ask whomever – why the down vote?

  • GQuan

    Personally, I know that it’s true that mothers commit the majority of child abuse (even when time spent with children is taken into account), but what we have here is someone asking politely for the sort of thing that the reference wiki should hopefully have been collecting. I hope regular posters can pull up the appropriate links. *I* know what the statistics and studies show, but non-regulars likely don’t, and their asking is only sensible.

  • GQuan

    I think we should consider this a training exercise. If we can’t post a flurry of relevant links, then why not? We’ll need to work on that (and yes, I should ideally be able to do that, too; I’m not complaining here, just saying that ideally we’d have immediate resources at hand).

  • Flower of Carnage

    Thanks for that GQuan…I consider myself an intelligent, curious woman open to new ideas and theories (including those I may not be entirely comfortable with) I do require fact alongside theory though.

    • theoutside

      I don’t know why anyone would down vote this. I think this is reasonable.

      Dear F of C, continue to read and check out the videos.

  • cyberxen

    Here is one Flower: In a 2002 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services, approximately two-fifths (40.3%) of child victims were maltreated by their mothers acting alone.13 Another 19.1% were maltreated by their fathers alone, while 18% were abused by both their mothers and fathers. Victims abused by a non-parental perpetrator accounted for 13% of the total. The national rate of victimization was a worrisome 12.3 per 1000 children.

    Details inside

    There are others, I don’t know why they have not made their way onto the wiki yet.

  • SensitiveThug

    Yes, there are loads of studies showing this. I’ve given another two links below. It’s great if Flower of Carnage is genuinely curious, but I will also say that it took me all of 2 minutes to find these links. It’d be good if those of us writing posts here did back up our claims more often, but I also wish others would do a little research of their own, especially considering how important it would be if kids are at risk and we’re not being told about more than half of the perpetrators.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      I was just thinking “Why doesn’t she just google it?”

      So I’ll ask outright – why didn’t you just google it, FOC?

      • flowerofcarnage

        I was interested in Cyberxen’s sources. I asked the question out of curiousity and was given a response. Thanks also for your question, O.H.P.,C. It does do us good to be challenged once in a while.

        • OneHundredPercentCotton

          I am interested in why YOU were interested in Cyberxen’s sources. Mind if I “challenge” you to answer your reasoning for that when it is actually a simple little google quest away?

          • Alexander Hunt

            Not to be a cunt, but every time I argue w/feminists they say “google it!” or “I’m not responsible for your ignorance”. Either we back up our claims, or we’re no damn better than them.

          • OneHundredPercentCotton

            Not to be a cunt, but when someone makes the statement “I’m here to RESEARCH blah, blah, blah…I would have expected her to… at least do some RESEARCH when she questioned or doubted a presented statement.

            …otherwise, she really not “researching” – she’s just sandbagging the conversation.

            When I research any topic I only ask for sources when I can’t find the verification myself ( it happens from time to time if you don’t ask the “right” thing) or when I find their source to be contradicted by much better empiric studies or sources(which happens often).

            I have to wonder if she read the one source that was offered, or did she take the initiative to see if it was contradicted by equal or better sources?

        • tallwheel

          Stats showing this have been featured on this site so many times… That’s probably why Cyberxen didn’t feel the need to back up their claim in the comment. I can see how someone new to the site might want to see a source on that though.

  • cyberxen

    Also Page 39 of the 2009 study:

    My fear is that as the facts garner more attention there is going to be an effort to manipulate the numbers and hide the truth, as we saw happen with VAWA.

  • Flower of Carnage

    Many thanks Cyberxen, I’m just blogging at the moment, but I’ll be sure to look the report over carefully and digest the findings.

    I am actually in the process of recovering from an abusive relationship…My partner was actually jailed and appeared in Crown Court for two assaults on me last Monday. I don’t hate him, though we won’t be having any further contact. My ex partner grew up in an incredibly abusive home, with violence both ways between both parents and towards the children. He is a massively troubled, angry man. Our time together demonstrated to me that two broken people cannot have a healthy relationship…And also that what happens to us as children shapes how we react to the world as adults. That’s precisely why this article and the comments following it are of such importance to me.

    To try and understand better what happened between us, I’m taking an interest in The Men’s Movement. I have been researching sites such as A Voice For Men, and my findings are firing my imagination. I will be commenting where I feel it’s relevant, but I am determined not to let my own experiences colour any public reactions. I appreciate your help with this, thanks again.

    • Stars Die

      There are many women in the men’s rights movement like you; in that they have had bad experiences with men.

      Chances are, if you’ve lived life for a certain number of years, you’re going to have been treated poorly by people of all genders and races etc.

      Don’t lose that objective eye in the midst of any of it. The plural of anecdote isn’t data.

      • flowerofcarnage

        Thanks for your words of encouragement, that is my aim.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      I’ve always wondered what it feels like to have someone you love, or once loved, jailed.

      Maybe it’s just me…but I couldn’t bear the thought of something like that, much less be so cavalier as to mention it so blithely.

      …seriously. How do you do that?

      • flowerofcarnage

        I took a serious beating from my ex-partner and do not feel I mention it blithely, Are you aware of what the word blithe actually means? Definition below if it helps…

        1. Carefree and lighthearted.
        2. Lacking or showing a lack of due concern; casual: spoke with blithe ignorance of the true situation.

        I do not believe trying to what actually happened in my relationship is in any way carefree. Please think carefully about your choice of words if you address me from now on.

        As to “What it is like having someone you love, or once loved jailed”

        Prison was my ex-partner’s punishment for breaking his bail conditions in trying to contact me. I reported his actions to the police. His conditions were repeatedly flouted and he was placed on remand as a result. I did not turn the lock in the key.

        The whole situation has been extremely difficult to deal with. I am moving on by not placing the blame on either of us, but trying to come to some conclusions about why our relationship failed so badly. If you wish to continue to judge my actions, then by all means continue., At least now you have an explanation.,

        • JinnBottle

          There’s something off here…I would ask that both the men and women regulars here imagine Flower as old, fat and ugly, instead of as she’s portrayed here. Y’all know why I’m asking that of the men: I ask it of the Honeybadger regulars so that you might see where any desire to keep the men here’s attention for yourselves is getting in the way…Or not?

          As to Flower herself: Your story does not end with your side of it. It is, in any case, your ex who’s paying the full price; and just because you “did not turn the key” doesn’t by itself let you off the hook, by any means. You know what I’m talking about, and so does every man & woman here.

          You mention that *both* of you are “broken people”. Well I doubt your ex is currently getting the ideal rehabilitation, far from it, in fact. But he’s blood under the bridge now, unfortunately. But as to your(-)self, I would say for starters that as a broken person, you need to lay off relationships and the men you’d fancy in them, until further notice. And your sex-kitten presentation isn’t helping in that direction. At all. You know that, too.

          And yes, I am “judging” you, as far as the limited amount of input we’re getting from you will let me; I have never seen “judgement” as a swear word, especially since I’ve been working with men, and the civilization their high standards hold up. Your ex was judged, the other day, at least partially at your behest.

          I also catch those occasional “from now on, please”s from you. They may be innocent, but in any case I’m telling you right now: You don’t get to have *anything* On Your Terms here. Period.

          I put in no downvotes, myself. But you remain a “person of interest” to me, anyway, in the context of this site, until further notice – and information.

          • OneHundredPercentCotton

            “Y’all know why I’m asking that of the men: I ask it of the Honeybadger regulars so that you might see where any desire to keep the men here’s attention for yourselves is getting in the way…Or not?”

            I won’t speak for the other “regualr” honeybadgers except to say, I don’t think any single one of us is interested in attention for ourselves. I also think keeping silent with our misgivings about certain others has lead to some bad outcomes.

            I can’t think of one single “regular” honeybadger here I wouldn’t trust to stand strong on men’s rights even when those men are unappreciative or even downright jerks.

            Because men’s rights are human rights, even if those men are fat, old or ugly.

        • OneHundredPercentCotton

          I chose the word “blithely” very carefully. I don’t see any emotion in your numerous mentionings of his imprisonment at your behest other than “blithely”.

          I heard more emotion from people who find it difficult to drop off a stray dog at the pound than you blithely repeating you had a former lover impounded.

          I guess it’s not a power trip to drop a dog off at the pound.

      • Alexander Hunt

        Then you have had a truly blessed life. I’m fairly sure a good number of the men on here would rather like their ex-partners jailed, for the frauds they committed, the cruelties they rendered, et cetera.

        • OneHundredPercentCotton

          Blessed life? You don’t know enough about my life to make a statement like that, now do you?

          If your contention were true as many men would be guilty of making false accusations against women just for the fun of seeing them go to prison as women do.

          …or all those men who were exonerated from false accusations would have their accuser prosecuted – or exposed.

          But I don’t see men doing it that much. Do you?

      • theoutside

        I didn’t think she was mentioning it blithely. I thought she was just being candid.

        • OneHundredPercentCotton

          Have YOU ever been responsible for another person’s incarceration? A stranger or a person you had an intimate relationship with – would there be an emotional difference?

          Because if so, I would LOVE to discuss with you how easy it is to be “candid” chatting about it less than a month after the fact.

          I really can’t imagine myself being so cavalierly “candid” about something like that, especially only a few weeks after the fact but then I find the whole subject of jail and prison to be a horrifying one.

    • theoutside

      Once again, I don’t see why this should be down voted. It is a completely reasonable statement.

  • Flower of Carnage

    Thank you Cyberxen and Sensitive thug, I’ll be sure to read the links with interest,

    • cyberxen

      No problem, happy to help. To be honest though, my perspective has little to do with those numbers, even if they were the opposite of what they are that perspective would be the same. For me it is about equality, for fathers like myself to be viewed as a parent that is just as important as mothers and possessing the same rights and responsibilities. Even though the studies show that women commit the majority of child abuse I would never suggest any solution that goes against the basic tenet of equality, because I believe that mothers that do not abuse their children should not have to suffer injustice caused by the ones that do.

    • Niku

      Seriously, what’s with all the downvotes? xD she seems genuinely curious…

  • GQuan

    That worries me too, cyberxen.

    And I understand entirely why many people here get frustrated that more people don’t research these things themselves, or are suspicious of trolls, but considering that this is a culture so flooded with falsehoods and distortions, I imagine most people find no reason to question. And when they hear contrary claims, they’re going to be sceptical and might need a lot of convincing. Indeed, one of the biggest sceptical complaints I hear from “blue pillers” is the view that feminism can’t possibly be as big and powerful as people like us claim it to be, and that our warnings of its stranglehold on public perceptions are paranoid ravings.

    I understand any impatience or suspicion – in fact I applaud it. I just think it needs to be balanced with a willingness to trust in visitors’ good intentions and not alienate people who are willing to listen and form their own opinions. I trust that the diversity of posters here will ensure the balance arises. Some of us can be the healthy voice of suspicion, others the healthy voice of trust.

    I’m not claiming to know whether any questioning visitor is a troll or someone with genuine interest, nor whether they’ll accept or reject what they find. Or whether they have any interest beyond the abstract intellectual. But I think we need to accept that as interest in these issues from a non-feminist perspective grows, we’re going to get a lot more newcomers and drive-through readers who will need convincing of the things we already accept.

  • Flower of Carnage

    The reason this article and your comments interest me so much are quite personal.

    I left a relationship with an abusive partner in May. I actually reported what happened to the police. My ex spent a month in prison for breaking his bail conditions and I attended his sentancing on Monday. He came from an incredibly abusive household…There was domestic violence between both parents and towards the children from both parties. My ex is a very angry man and prone to verbal and physical violence, something I believe may stem from his childhood experiences.

    I don’t hate my ex, although we will not have any further contact. In an effort to understand what happened between us, I have started researching the Men’s Movement via sites like A Voice For Men. I’m going to be blogging my findings and taking them along to my counselling sessions.

    I’ve always prided myself on being able to see an argument 360 degrees around. And doing my research to achieve this. Thanks again for helping me with this.


      Interesting, any chance of a followup of your counseling session(s)?

      I wonder if the councilor will follow the usual male good/female bad narrative?

      • Flower of Carnage

        Thanks for your interest. I’m more than prepared to keep you posted. I’m just about to link this page as a blog post to document what’s been discussed on here. The counselling I’m attending is person-centred, so takes the lead from what I bring to the sessions. I would hope my counsellor takes the view that both men and women are capable of both good and bad. That’s certainly my take on things.

        Please feel free to follow my blog on WordPress if you think my findings may be of interest to you.


          Will be there. :)

    • cyberxen

      Flower, the world needs a million more just like you. That is the healthiest and most logical course of action I have ever heard of. That you would take what must have been quite a painful experience and look at it from a deeper perspective to bring something good from it speaks volumes about your character. I bet there is a lot of evidence out there supporting your hypothesis of childhood victims assuming the behavior of a perpetrator later on in life.

      • OneHundredPercentCotton

        The down vote is mine. I’m not a fan of sending childhood victims to prison.

        • cyberxen

          Well, me either but… the victim also became a perpetrator later on in life. There is obviously a judgment call in whether he should have went to prison or not, truthfully it was outside of my train of thought so I never formulated an opinion either way. I do like the fact that Flower recognized a cycle of violence though, and kind of honed in on that as the important part because I figured that it dovetails nicely with our movement. The DV industry focuses its resources on “helping” only half the victims (the female half), and because of the way they “help” them, and the way that industry ignores and/or demonizes the other half of victims (the male half), there is no way that these cycles of DV can be stopped.

        • flowerofcarnage

          And I am not a fan of anyone living in fear of getting slapped down verbally or physically attacked for expressing an opinion or wish contrary to that of their partner. Whatever their gender.

          I’ll say again, I reported my partner to the police for assault. The CPS decided how the case was handled…So surely background checks should be their responsibility,

        • theoutside

          Yes, i agree. But Flower seems to be getting a strangely large number of downers.

          • OneHundredPercentCotton

            As I’ve already said – coming to a MHR site claiming to be a DV victim “researching” why her ex assaulted her kind of has a “do you still beat your wife” smell to it.

            I find it offensive. Maybe you could enlighten me why you don’t.

    • Fabrizio Napoleoni

      When did you discovered your ex was abusive? I do not need details,
      Is there anything in your behavior that can be considered abusive?
      Is there any chance he was projecting on you the hatred the society is projecting on him?

      Just questions, since I think discovery start from the assessment of the observer.

      • flowerofcarnage

        I discovered my ex was physically abusive in March. I left him the week afterwards but came back together with him. I genuinely believed we could save the relationship and make a life together.

        I would often find his behaviour controlling and try to challenge it, This would usually result in an argument.

        Hope this helps you.

    • kevin22

      Not having a go at you Flower of Carnage, but violence is generally defined in the real world as –

      “behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something:” (Oxford English)

      I know that on planet feminist, violence is defined as pretty much anything that women don’t like but in the real world it is not possible to be “verbally violent”.

  • GQuan

    ^ I’d recommenmd the works of Erin Pizzey, which are often reproduced or mentioned here (she holds a position as an editor-at-large and advisor for the site). She was a pioneer in combating domestic and family violence, and founded what’s often considered the first battered womens’ shelter in the world. She was always interested in how violence transmits from generation to generation and how abusive environments shape people to leave them more likely to abuse others in later life.

    Not only did she literally write the book(s) on domestic violence – before feminist ideologues wrested control of the organization she founded – but she worked to help a great many people like yourself.

  • Flower of Carnage

    Thanks to all of you for taking the time to reply. I will certainly look into your recommendations and continue to read the articles and responses on this site. I will continue to reply to anything I think relevant to my situation…But endeavour to think carefully about what I write and not let my experiences colour my responses in a personal light.

    I believe that nobody should have to live in fear of violence from loved ones, regardless of their gender. I know that Domestic Abuse is a very real threat to men and women worldwide. I loathe violence and feel there is no excuse for it. When I am stronger, I aim to either volunteer or find paid work with one of the many worthy organisations which work with the victims of D.V.

    • JFinn

      I will continue to reply to anything

      I think we’re clear on that by now lol

      • scatmaster

        Refreshing however JFinn IMO.
        Not white knighting guys relax.

        • Paul Elam

          Agreed and agreed.

        • JFinn

          Fair enough. My bad for the joke.

      • flowerofcarnage

        Apologies, I see some of my comments were duplicated last night. I was posting replies and not seeing them on the page…And assuming they had got lost in the ether,

        Interesting that you shortened my quote JFINN, I actually said

        I will continue to reply to anything I think relevant to my situation

        And I stand by that.

  • Flower of Carnage

    Many thanks to you all for taking the time to respond to my comments. I will certainly be looking into your recommendations.

    I more than recognise that Domestic Violence is a very real threat worldwide.Certainly, I am beginning to think there is a link between violence in childhood homes and aggressive adults. I believe that nobody should live in fear, regardless of their gender. I hope to either volunteer or find paid work with one of the many worthy organisations which help the victims of D.V when I am stronger.

    • Grumpy Old Man

      Flower, keep a good heart and realize there are many men as well as women trying to work this out. The bad ones (men or women) seem to take our energy but to push the good ones aside is a crime to humanity.

      • Flower of Carnage

        Yes, I quite agree. Thanks very much for your kind words of encouragement.

      • scatmaster

        I wonder why F of C is been down voted. Seems to be a rational individual who is truly interested in what we have to say.

        • OneHundredPercentCotton

          She was downvoted before I got here, but like I’ve stated already – I’m not a fan of sending people to prison to teach them a lesson – them claiming your are “researching” men’s rights movement to figure out why they were abusive.

          My mother beat me. I wouldn’t claim to “research” feminism to find out why.

          I think your perspective here is colored by your own good will, scat – not hers.

          • flowerofcarnage

            So pleased to hear you are questioning my freedom to research whatever I please. I’ll be be sure to take your many negative comments and your downvotes to heart and let it put me off what I think is the right course of action,

          • OneHundredPercentCotton

            I didn’t “question your freedom to research”, Toots. I questioned why you didn’t do your own research about DV stats instead of challenging the ones stated, and I also questioned why you came to a MEN’S RIGHTS site to “research” why your boyfriend was so abuuuusive to poor little you.

            Again I have to ask – what do men’s rights have to do with your “abuse”?

            You see, I came to a men’s rights site to question why I, as a woman, had fewer rights – well, NO rights whatsoever – to see my Grandson just because I am the mother of his father instead of his mother. My son’s non existent rights in family court are MY non existent rights – just because I parented the wrong sex?

            I came to a men’s rights site to question why my brother was drafted and forced to serve against his will while I am free from any such obligation and free to enjoy every right and privilege HE was forced to defend….all while hearing claims that I am the oppressed one and feminism is all about “equality”.

            I came to a men’s rights site to question why my very qualified son was passed over for scholarship considerations in favor of lesser qualified women – after all, I am now a woman burdened with paying for his schooling while some less deserving woman is not.

            I came to a men’s rights site to question why my sons are held to a higher degree of law than my daughter. I question why my sons are 60% more legally responsible than “equal” women are.

            I gotta tell you – I have NEVER been in an abusive relationship, and never will. If I found myself an active and willing participant in an abusive relationship, I can tell you this – I would be questioning and researching my OWN motivations and reasons loooong before coming to a men’s rights site to find out why some guy was such a big meanie to poor widdle me.

            …which probably goes a long way in explaining why I’ve never allowed anybody to abuse me.

            Your “right course of action” whatever that means, does not entail men’s rights.

            In other words, your’e barking up the wrong tree. You should be able to find your “research” on feminist’s sites telling you how it’s not YOUR fault, it’s allways the menz fault.

            Isn’t that the answer your’e really “researching” for?

          • scatmaster

            Well you just changed it OHPC. Thanks. I did not look at it that way.

  • SensitiveThug

    Thanks for the uber-tactful wording of your comments, GQuan: you’ll make a fine diplomat!

    And I wish you well, Flower of Carnage, in your counselling and blogging. Thanks for taking an interest in what we have to say.

    • Flower of Carnage

      Thanks for that…I can assure you I am not a troll, by the way. I’m simply doing some research on a subject I’m struggling to understand. The reason I responded to this post in particular is, I keep hearing about men with “Mother Issues” turning into raging Misogynists in adulthood. For the record, I’m pretty skeptical about that applying to every single man who had a poor relationship with his Mum. Plenty of people overcome childhood adversity and go on to make fine parents and do well in life. There are exceptions to every rule. Anyway, time for me to turn in for the night. Feel like I’ve learned quite a bit compared to other nights spent online!

      • markis1


        i was abused my exwife..she actually did get arrested for it and was ordered to go to counseling by a judge.

        the counseling she had was centered around the deluth model.check this out (one again the severely flawed feminist narrative that men are bad and women are good)

        by the time i did file for divorce my self esteem was drained to zero and i was in acute depression

        more than 10 years have gone by and i have never been the same.

        my ex actually did go on to reoffend.many times with me
        but after she remarried she got mad at her husband and punched him and when the police arrived she confessed and was arrested at the scene.

        working with mostly men doing construction hardly a week goes by that i dont hear from a man about how his wife or girlfriend is abusive.
        often even though the man has bruises or is bleeding hes the one arrested or kicked out buy the police.

        .no one cares about men who are abused.certainly not feminists.they deny stats that show gender parity in DV and attempt to silence anyone who dares to question what they say

        • flowerofcarnage

          I care about men being abused by women, I can assure you, I don’t think D.V is acceptable from either gender. Sorry to hear about your experiences.

          • Stu

            Yeah, I care about women being abused in DV too, but I just don’t consider a lot of the crap that is now included in that label as legitimate. The desperate DV industry is now classifying all verbal arguments, sarcastic remarks, dirty looks, disagreements, etc, etc, etc… abuse….but only for men. The solution is not to see women held up to these ridiculous standards too, the solution is to get back to common sense, and evidence based approach. No two people ever lived together on this earth for any length of time, regardless of their relationship to each other, housemates, siblings, friends, parents, without having arguments and disagreements etc. If those things are DV, then everybody is guilty……without exception.

  • Droobles

    About the Will Smith reference, she forgets that Will had a Father figure in the show, it was his UNCLE.

  • Sondjata

    Never mind that in the Fresh Prince, Smith’s character was sent to Bel-Air precisely because it had a stable and intact family with a father [figure] to provide guidance and how Smith’s character, when making that speech, was actually reaping the benefits of having a father in “the home” while he lashed out at his missing biological father.

    And of course the fact that Smith, had he actually believed what he said, apparently sees the value in being a father to his own children. I mean, if they can grow up and marry a “fine honey” or “hot guy” and a great job without him, why be involved? Oh right..’cause when it comes to your own a lot of people find the BS they speak of to be, well, BS.

    • Wolverine1568

      Not to mention that it is a FICTIONAL television show.

  • Redfield

    The woman in the NYT’s article is only covering a percentage of the reasons for single parenting, soldiers, firemen, policemen KIA?? WTF?? The bigger problem is the conscious callous act of divorcing a husband and proceeding to divorce him from his children! She has smidgenalised (the act of making small) the real problem with fatherless children! It is a cold, cruel calculated act far too many women commit on their children when divorcing, to turn these children into pseudo bastards!!

  • re-construct

    Its not just the immediate loss of the father that affects children, its the long term effects from being alienated from the extended family also.

    Statistics show that fathers make sure to bring the children around to aunts and uncles, gram and gramps houses, much more than mothers do, which leads to a feeling of well being and contentedness in the children, with an extended family.
    It seems that by telling mom the children are “Hers” leads to her keeping them for herself, and the children suffer by being alienated from their extended families.

  • markis1

    millions of children have grown up fatherless in the last 40 years and we wonder why crime rates are what they are.

    here is a study on feminism and welfare

    and faithlessness is the greatest single causal factor in crime

    consider Anders Behring

    his mother abused him and sexually abused him when he was a small child

    no one ever considered that his father would have given him a better place to live.
    his father fought a losing battle for custody.probably never stood a chance because of feminist influenced jurisprudence .

    so young Anders grew up into a twisted young man and did some terrible things and many innocent lives were lost….and it could have been avoided with some common sense that was never present because feminism has taught the LIE that women are angels and men are devils

    this is the kind of thing we can expect to see more of if we dont turn the tide against feminism

    because feminism holds that women are somehow better then men

    and this belief has thoroughly infiltrated our culture and our laws

    • Alexander Hunt

      That wintreryknight blog is the biggest sack of traditionalist horseshit I’ve seen; women, just make it a little nicer and men will go back to serving and facilitating your eternal childhood of baking and childrearing. NO. FUCK OFF. THE OLD WAYS ARE DEAD. And I intend to keep them buried.

  • crydiego

    in reply to flower
    You know what flower, -I also keep hearing about men with “Mother Issues” turning into raging Misogynists in adulthood. The trouble is, -I only here such unsubstantiated crap from feminist. Could you qoute your source?

    • flowerofcarnage

      You miss my point, I wasn’t agreeing with the premise as an all encompassing sweeping statement. I believe people can triumph over childhood adversity and go on to live well.

      • Kimski

        Of course, that would take a society that actually recognizes that men and boys can be victims too, instead of telling them to man up or willfully disregard their pain, until it blows up in people’s faces.

        Serial killers and lone gunmen on rooftops are _created_ that way.

        • flowerofcarnage

          I am in total agreement with every word you’ve said there. Abuse is abuse, no excuses. To tell you the truth I despise society’s “man up” attitude. We need to create a culture where both genders are encouraged to identify what constitutes domestic violence and to reject it from their lives.

          I think I’ll make this my last post on A.V.F.M. Thanks for your response.

  • Keano Reeves

    I agree with you, GQuan. That is why, whichever party is in power, they will kow-tow to women – I cll this wombopoly – the monopoly of womb and reproduction.

    Women have been doing shit for ever, because THEY KNOW THEY WILL BE FORGIVEN. They have a womb.

    But this time it will be different. With artificial wombs, sex dolls and VR Sex improving by the day, as men drop out, it will be difficult to bring them back.

    The solution has to be technological.

  • onca747

    What I find most insidious about Weldon’s article, is it’s only a short step from “what use are fathers” to “what use are males”. I don’t care how abusive her background is, there’s no excuse for her passive-aggressive variety of gender bigotry, and frankly her intentions are borderline evil.

  • Andy Bob

    When a writer feels the need to quote a character from a syrupy old sit-com to validate their position on an issue, it become blatantly apparent that their position has leapt the boundary that separates objective journalism from subjective fantasy.

    In line with nearly all feminist-inspired journalism, Ms Weldon has thumped out a self-serving mélange of projection, bigotry and wishful thinking. It ticks all of her emotional boxes. By publicly devaluing the role of fathers in the lives of their children, she simultaneously wreathes herself in unwarranted self-congratulation, dangles from her martyr’s cross, and kicks men in the guts.

    This little party trick doesn’t require much skill from feminists. They just have to be vigilant in preventing anything resembling facts from intruding on their act – otherwise, it all comes toppling down. After all, who needs facts when you can utilize own experience, ride the wake of the media’s anti-father assault, and quote fictional characters from crappy, formulaic sit-coms?

    For some reason, Michele Weldon fells entitled to declare that her three sons are better off without their father (whose massive child support payment is, I’ll be bound, not quite so summarily dismissed). Predictably, it doesn’t occur to her that her three sons, and their father, are the only people entitled to make such a call. One can only imagine the parental alienation Ms Weldon is enforcing to ensure that these invisible, voiceless boys come around to her way of thinking.

    There are many forms of child abuse. By writing “When Children Are Better off Fatherless”, Ms Weldon makes it all too which one she has chosen to inflict upon her children.

    Excellent article, Mr Grumpy Old Man. You have skewered this vile individual with the dexterity that she thoroughly deserves. Please write more.

    • Wolverine1568

      WHEWww!! Glad somebody got around to saying it. I really hate typing. 😉

    • Kimski

      “When a writer feels the need to quote a character from a syrupy old sit-com to validate their position on an issue…”

      Actually, it’s fits in perfectly with the findings on Inuit exposure to TV sitcoms, back in the day when TV was first introduced to them, and the subsequent sudden rise in divorces that came as an immediate consequence. The numbers went from almost zero to well above 45% in no less than 3-5 years. That was just from watching crap like ‘Days of Our Lives’. The men were out hunting and fishing, so the demographic of the viewers were almost entirely female. You can only imagine the damage women like Oprah has later added to this downfall.

      I think it raises some serious questions, in regard to how much emotional triggering you can digest every day, before you start substituting reality with your own version. Since the media mostly presents men as bad guys or idiots, one can only guess at how long it takes before those general notions are imprinted into the brain. It must be working much like commercials and political lies ad lib does. The more you hear it, the easier it becomes to believe in it, and the more blurred the boundaries between reality and fantasy becomes.

      Michele Weldon is a pretty good example, IMO.

  • Luke

    What use are feminists? They are mentally ill beasts who use corrupt politicians to abuse children by making them fatherless

  • Paul Elam

    Great article GOM. Thanks for adding your voice to the choir.

  • flowerofcarnage

    To all those who responded to my questions yesterday, I have read the articles posted. I’ll be using what I read as a jumping-off point for researching the link between physical abuse in childhood and domestic violence later. I do however think I’ll be doing so away from A Voice For Men. I’ll be reviewing my research methods and hopefully getting further along the right track with this.

    My aim is to look at the situation from all angles and to come to a conclusion, so that I can move on. Not to find myself judged for seeking justice and entering into conflict with strangers. So thanks those of you with something constructive to say. I genuinely feel you’ve helped me. For others who thought it necessary to take me to task, we’re all entitled to an opinion,

    I wish you well with your lives and whatever path they take you,

  • re-construct

    I read somewhere that abusive women will seek out abusive men, and if they can’t find an abusive man they will try to bring it out of him by abusing him. Talking to a guy just last night who had to call the cops on a women who smacked him in the face.

  • GQuan

    I’m rather discomforted by all the downvoting and aggressive questioning going on here. I don’t see the logic behind it.

    Let’s say for the sake of argument that this person was a troll. Now keep in mind that, like any website, we’re getting far more views from unaffiliated or curious outsiders than we are regulars. This site is consistantly in the top 60,000 now, often in the top 40,000. What do the observers see? Regulars sharing information and giving cautious but pleasant welcomes to newcomers? How does that make the site look bad in any way? What negative consequences attend the site if the person in question is a troll? If they started blatantly trolling, how does it reflect poorly on those who greeted them politely and indeed swiftly provided the links they asked for? For all those silent observers it sends a message that this place is serious and well-intentioned. If they see a flurry of downvotes and assumptions at the slightest hint of blue- or purple-pilldom, I don’t think it works in the site’s favour.

    Now assume the person is not a troll. In that case, they’ve potentially been alienated by the reception they received and rather than moving on and keeping the site’s assertions floating around in the back of their mind regardless of whether they pursue what they’ve been investigating, they might write the whole thing off.

    I don’t see how treating people like trolls without strong cause, or defending these comments against any blue or purple pill intrusion when it isn’t being abusive or aggressive, works in the favour of a site that’s attracting huge amounts of attention.

    What’s the point? What is the point in downvoting comments and throwing out accusatory questions even if you’ve decided a visitor *is* a troll? What does that accomplish? How does that serve to do anything but make the site look paranoid and reactionary to a viewing public who have already been prompted by the mainstream ideologies to see us as paranoid reactionaries?

    If you think she’s a troll, ignore her. Deal with someone as though they’re genuine until you are personally convinced they aren’t, then disengage. A genuine, blatant troll will be starved of attention very swiftly. And even if someone is a troll and many of us don’t see it, it’s hardly we who look bad to an outsider’s eyes, is it?

  • GQuan

    Personally, I think the problem is that places like this are both activist and “safe places” where men are free to let off steam and voice their frustrations without censure. So many will agressively defend this space against incursions from the mainstream, which they came here to escape. But this desire is often at odds with the site’s activism and high visitation rate.

  • crydiego

    I was going to say something,but then,thought better of it.

  • Dennis

    I canceled my subscription of ten years to the New York Times the day after their disgusting father’s day journalistic smear on fathers for exactly the reasons GOM recounts. Lately the NYT has been slipping in false data on gender statistics like “men die two years younger then women”. It’s five years at last count and I heard Warren Farrell mention seven years. Yet in that same father’s day issue they had a big spread in the lifestyles section on….yes… “What Women Want.”…from men.

    The New York Times is no longer the definitive premier newspaper it once was. And for many reasons other than their outrageous gender bias and bigotry. Over the years they have become suck-ups to the powers that be. And their failure to show journalistic courage and integrity in the face of those powers renders them little more than a feminist-establishment propaganda rag.

  • Dan Perrins

    Well done Grumpy.
    Thoroughly enjoyed your piece.

    • Grumpy Old Man

      thank you Dan…

  • crydiego

    Are you part of the AVfM staff?

  • cvar
    [Trigger Warning, may cause a lot of things to suddenly get in your eyes and it’s totally not crying.]

    All the yelling that Will does is because he didn’t have a dad. There’s nothing to show that his father was abusive, he was just absent. Which is what she’s arguing that more kids should go through and defending her choice to put her own children through.

    I sure hope her kids have an Uncle Phil to fall back on.

  • Dr. F (Ian Williams)

    Thanks GOM.

    I really like this piece. You are no longer a “virgin of the quill”.

    • Grumpy Old Man

      Thank you Dr. F. and thank you again for your mentorship.

  • re-construct

    The girl that my friend had to call the police on (because she smacked him in the face); told my friend that she had been in multiple abusive relationships in the past; when they first met.

    I told him “be careful with her, water seeks its own level and she dated violent men for a reason”, and he blew me off about it. The reason I told him was that Bold social scientists outside the American quack-ademic circles understand that violent women seek violent men..its just the way it goes and if these women can’t find violent men they will start smacking him in the face until he gets violent..
    So i warned my friend to not have anything to do with her…but he did anyway. 6 months later he had to call the police on her for smacking him in the face.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      “I would often find his behavior controlling and try to challenge it, This would usually result in an argument.”

      I often find challenging the controlling behavior of a rattlesnake by poking a stick at it results in the same behavior time after time. I know every book, story or song about rattle snakes verifies this to be true about rattlesnakes.

      …but I am special and different, and if the rattlesnake doesn’t realize that pretty soon – it’s going to end up being a pair of my boots.

  • Laurie


    I feel so sorry for you! So full of anger!
    But so content in the knowledge that you are the minority, and there is good reason for it.

    • Paul Elam

      Let me be the first to tell you to bugger off, since I was the one to approve this comment and saw it first.

      What do you know of this woman? I will answer it for you. Nothing.

      So while I am sure the world usually marvels at your Peter Pan observations, and your smug and insincere sympathies. The most they will likely get you around here is an invitation to go fuck yourself.

      Now please, tell me how angry I am, too.

    • Grumpy Old Man

      Nice way to troll boost your blog. Slick!

  • Fr33kSh0w2012

    Sooo It was you “Laurie” You were the one that Hacked my yahoo account and posted all that CRAP that I NEVER TYPED Fuck you Laurie you can go and fucking die in a hole where you belong you got me banned from this site I am finally back on Listen Paul all that shit that “I” supposedly posted Wasn’t me it was this “Laurie” prick If I ever find out where you live you sniveling piece of fuck Your screwed! Sorry Paul but it was this little rabid maggot that just turned himself in are you still good with me!

    See the only thing I posted was about my mother mental illness and how I was looking after her, If you do remember!

    Note how he linked to that shit and how “I” supposedly went on about how women liked having rape fantasies! makes sense now doesn’t it!

  • Fr33kSh0w2012

    Paul Elam, It’s Peter Clifford The REAL one!

    My friend is Mens Business Association on youtube

    This Guy

  • Fr33kSh0w2012

    Your site seems to be playing up with opera 12 web browser Paul.

  • Laurie

    You will never win, losers! Misogyny is all the rage. And y’know what, it’s ACTUALLY HAPPENING. A lot of men are misogynists! YOU WILL NEVER WIN WITH YOUR LAUGHABLE COMRADERY! Seriously funny. Good job.

    • greg

      Take your meds today Laurie?

    • cyberxen

      That’s what other bigots throughout history have thought, but guess what? Slavery is over, segregation is over, and people of color have the same rights as anyone else in America, despite the feelings of people like you.

      • Bombay

        And the Third Reich fell……..

        • Kimski

          Pure evil has a relatively short lifespan, historically. Every time a group of people start recognizing it for what it is and make a stand against it, you can almost hear the clock start ticking down.

          Recent events in Norway and Australia proves this is happening for feminism too.

          One day very soon, Laurie is going to be one of those people hiding in the crowd, denying that she ever associated with feminist ultra-misandry, or supported its enablers.

          You know, the way cowards do, when they no longer have a herd of likeminded assholes and bigots to back them up.

  • Just Saying

    And to all the single women raising daughters and sons without their father – I want to thank you. The sons are useless – never knowing what a man is so are stuck perpetually in this no-mansland of women’s distorted perception of men. And the daughters – ah the daughters – all so desperate for the approval of an older male… They are my bread and butter – their lovely little bodies for a smile of encouragement – their desperate need to please.

    Yes, ladies… I want to thank you, without you my bed would be much colder but as long as men are seen as extraneous in raising those children, there will be lovely young women all vying for time in my bed and in my life…

  • Nemoque

    If women truly believe that children are better off without fathers, women should promote laws that make it illegal to have sex with a man.