Nice feminist

To the nice feminists

Let’s talk for a moment about nice feminists. They come in a variety of flavors, but these are the ones whose goals, although pursued under the banner of feminism, are reasonable, and indeed, virtuous. The decriminalizing and normalizing of prostitution is an example. While many people both inside and outside the men’s rights movement dislike the idea of prostitution, it wont be done away with by keeping it illegal. It is simply thus made more dangerous and harmful for everyone involved, both for the provider and the consumer. Okay, great, and there are other issues. Porn, for example, is argued for as a legitimate form of employment – for surely it is every woman’s right to get naked and be paid to have sex, should she chose to do so.

Okay, that’s really the same issue, but surely from outside the camp of feminism – outside the radical camp, outlside the liberal camp, outside the “I want to be paid for sex” camp.

Now, from outside the camps all flying the flag of feminism – is it unkind, unfair and/or uncalled for to universally condemn the ideology as a monolith, without regard for just which of the 364 flavors we’re talking about when we use that endlessly flexible label of feminism?

No, and I’m going to explain for those who might pursue legitimately humanist goals why I will continue to talk in condemning tones about the ideology calling itself feminism, and why I don’t care what sub-species of that ideology to which you may happen to subscribe. And if what I’m about to tell you upsets you, too bad, woman or man up as the case may be.

I agree that there are self-described feminists whose goals are legitimate. I agree that de-criminalizing matters of personal choice and bodily autonomy are important and worthy goals. And to the extent that I can I will support and promote those goals, independent of whatever political label under which you or anyone else pursues them.

However, the humanist, liberal, sex positive, nice guy version of feminism you practice – and if i didn’t cover your particular flavor, go ahead and add it in — that humanist feminism is not the same ideology taught in university gender studies courses. It is not the feminism which informs the policies of United Nations aid agencies who render assistance to only women and children, and not to men. Your humanist version of feminism is not the one which specifically excludes male gang-rape victims from receiving medical aid, shelter and rehabilitation in places where male targeting gang rape are standard practices of war, such as in the Congo. That feminism is not your humanist feminism. Neither is your feminism the version of that ideology which informs a multi-billion dollar industry which produces egregiously and grotesquely misleading misinformation designed to acculturate hatred and fear in women towards men; which teaches girls to always be victims, and never be self actualized adults.

That is not your humanist feminism either. Your humanist feminism is not the ideology informing almost all domestic violence shelters, and public messaging on DV, selling a totally false story that domestic violence is just evil, violent men, beating on just sweetly innocent and decorative female victims. Your view is not one of  demonizing men in our culture so as to guarantee to enable more domestic violence because it works from a totally broken model.

Your flavor of humanist feminism is not the one informing a collection of lawyers, social workers, educators, child care specialists, psychologists and other professionals to collaborate on a blog and cheer for plans to eugenically exterminate the male half of the human race.

So yes, I understand, your feminism has admirable goals. You are a teeny, tiny, unfunded, un-organized minority. Yours is not the feminism that informs domestic policy, writes white papers for the UN or eradicates due process on college and university campuses. That’s the other feminism; that’s the big, funded, established, and politically powerful version of the ideology. That is somebody else. Right?

But when you pursue your noble goals under the banner of feminism, even when you prefix it, and say liberal feminism, or humanist feminism, or sex positive feminism, you are giving cover to those who openly call for the extermination of men.

I’ll say that again. When you pursue your noble goals under the banner of feminism, even when you prefix it, and say liberal feminism, or humanist feminism, or sex positive feminism, you are giving cover to those who openly call for the extermination of men.

And that’s why I don’t care what flavor of feminism you practice. You’re using the same brand name as murderous, eugenics enthusiast, destroy due process sexual apartheid gender ideologue elitists for whom violence isn’t just an unpleasant option. Violence, when contemplated against children, or men, especially when doled out by state functionaries is what gets them wet. That’s the big, funded, organized and politically established collective with which you identify by name.

I know, you’re a humanist. You’re not murderous. You wouldn’t dream of using violence to attain your goals. However, your chosen ignorance of or indifference toward the depraved ideologues who have appropriated the label you share neither excuses nor exonerates you.  So, fuck you anyway. If you self identify as a feminist, you’re flying under the banner of a totalitarian, violent, amoral murderous ideology of sexual apartheid and hatred.

If your goals are legitimate, pursue them. You’ll have my total support. But if you fly the flag of hatred and violence, do not expect me to pat you on the head and say that’s okay, I know you’re one of the “nice” ones. Fuck you, grow up, and stop pretending there’s no problem flying the same flag as those who use hate and fear and bald faced lies to advocate for eugenics, mass murder, elitist legislation, victim identity and the marginalization of men and boys.

I thank you for your kind attention.

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  • Imdefender

    Why not just put up girlwriteswhat’s vid ?

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      Because 1) John wrote it, and 2) we have many here who prefer to read articles.

      • Rex

        I suppose a valid question at this point would be, did JTO write the script for GWW’s video or did JTO transcribe what GWW said in her video. Because there is no denying that they are the same. I think some sort of reference and or link would be in order here just to avoid confusion.

        • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

          Indeed, a valid question. GWW recorded that as a rant for the radio show on John’s behalf because he was sick and his voice was out. I was just able to hear it recently and liked it enough that I wanted it as an article for the site. So, I did some minor editing to put it into an article format and posted. I will wager that most people who read it will not have heard the rant. So everyone wins.

        • http://danipettas.com Dani Pettas

          Thanks for pointing this out. I just played the youtube video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o-OcTSeVcs.

          It’s pretty cool to hear GWW read this.

          I’m curious to hear JTO read some GWW material now.

        • Near Earth Object

          “Because there is no denying that they are the same.”

          Similar does not equal “the same”.

      • Dose28

        Despite being very happy with what GWW is doing I can’t help but be extremely frustrated that as men we really can’t be heard and it takes a woman parroting our message to gain any kind of notice and/or credibility. Also her skyrocketing poplularity vs that of my FAVORITE spokesman Mr. Bernard Chapin (who has been around far longer), well, it makes me hostile…extremely. As men our hands have been well shacked, despite the advances of MRA’s which mean a great deal to me, we men are still thought of as worse than beasts. What an evil world.

    • MenDiscontinued

      Down voted, respectfully. There are many more voices here on this site.

    • Jay

      Just putting this near the top, as some comments asked for some links to some of the information in this article.

      Below is an article I urge everyone here to read, it talks about the rape of men and boys, more brutal than imaginable, yet the United Nations and other aid organisations, due to their feminist policies, deny basic help to these poor men and boys.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

    • themischi

      FAQ feminism
      1. What is feminism?
      Feminism is a movement aiming to establish social/economic/political rights for women equal to that of men.
      2. Why is it feminism if it is preaching equality?
      The movement is called feminism as it is speaking on behalf of the underprivileged gender (women). This is similar to e.g. the naming of the black power movement, which advocates equal rights for black people and not black dominance.
      3. Why do feminists hate men?
      They don’t! Feminism is about equal rights and not about female supremacy. Anyone who wants women to be the dominant gender is not a feminist and that view is totally dumb and uncool.
      4. But men and women act in certain ways due to their biology. Men are naturally stronger and women are naturally caring.
      Most scientists agree that gender roles are formed by social/cultural conditioning rather than from any biological reason. Several hunter-gatherer groups were primarily egalitarian. People have tried to assert over the centuries that men were smarter than women due to having slightly larger brains (ignoring the fact that shorter men obviously had smaller brains too), but tests have proven that women are just as competent as men in any given task (source: the biologist Richard Lewontin).
      5. Women are also privileged e.g. most nurses are female; women are given parental advantage…
      When feminism discusses privilege, it is referring to privilege on a wider, global, social scale. While there may be some social stigma and prejudice towards men choosing e.g. nursing as a career path, this does not mean that men suffer, overall, from systematic and institutional oppression. Any disadvantages men encounter in female-dominated roles are actually a direct result of patriarchal oppression– roles such as nursing/beauty/midwifery are seen as women’s work, whereas men are seen as more suited to more academic roles like becoming a doctor/lawyer/engineer. In fact, even with this perceived female-privilege, male nurses still earn £100 a week more than female nurses as of 2011. As recently as 2006 Male nurses even earned £400 a week more than female nurses (Source: Careers Wales) for doing the same job. Feminism is a movement which benefits men too, aiming to abolish shitty and outdated attitudes regarding gender, meaning there would be less of social stigma if a man, for example, chooses to be a nurse instead of something more stereotypically masculine. This point is applicable to the parental advantage argument too – by abolishing gender roles, you abolish the parental privilege women get. Feminism aims to eradicate any kind of inequality based on gender.

      Why does feminism not concern itself with prejudice against men?
      It does, although arguably indirectly (see answer to question 5). Regardless, it is necessary to have a movement which speaks on behalf of a discriminated group, and that is what feminism does for women. There is also a masculinist community which works alongside feminism to abolish prejudice against men.
      6. If sex workers (strippers/prostitutes/etc) choose to work as sex workers, then how is that bad?
      Our society commodifies sex, and sex is undeniably seen as something women have that men want. A woman’s body is therefore ornamental and equated with sex, and if a woman fucks a lot of guys then the commodity of her body is seen as expended or used up. A woman is therefore being objectified and commodified. Even if a woman chooses to operate within this framework she is still being objectified and commodified. Also it is very unlikely that a woman would genuinely want to be a sex worker, for anything other than economic reasons, so the argument of “choice” is kinda sketchy. It is vital to note that it is the system that feminists object to, not the women.

      7. I know feminism was relevant in the past but why do we still need it?
      There are, sadly, still social, political and economic inequalities between men and women, in favour of men. As of Nov 2012, women still earn on average 14.9% less than men for the same job (source: BBC). The Everyday Sexism project has also helped to show over 10,000 examples (and growing) of women who experience normalised sexism on a daily basis (e.g. street harassment, magazines about science/politics/cars categorised as “men’s magazines”, the media obsession with a woman’s appearance rather than political/academic/athletic merits etc.). Women are seen as the ‘sex class’ and are taught from a young age that above all else they should aim to be beautiful and they are conditioned to focus on their appearance rather than e.g. learning a skill.

      • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

        You really have not bothered to read anything that questions this line of bullshit, have you? Do you really think by posting this you’re telling anyone here anything they haven’t read and heard before? We don’t believe it, we have a lot of reasons for not believing it, try asking why we don’t believe it, or better yet, read the 16 introductory articles to this site which are right there for you to check.

        The short answer to your FAQ: 1) Bullshit, whatever its stated goals it has established female supremacy in countless areas, 2) bullshit, women are a privileged class and always have been, that’s the fundamental error of feminist philosophy, 3) bullshit, because say what you like about not hating men, the whole notion that women are oppressed and men are oppressors is inherently hateful to men, which is why feminism gets its reputation for misandry–it starts with a misandrist (and ironically misogynist) viewpoint which is quite false, 4) bullshit, a bunch of broad generalizations that don’t mean anything in specific, although endless numbers of feminists have argued that females are innately superior in numerous areas and feminsits almost never object such; 5) the Patriarchy nonsense is pseudoscientific bullshit, which ignores female privilege and power which has always been with us and incorrectly counterfactually falsely attributes power to men only, 6) hateful demonization of male sexuality bullshit, and taking power away from women in the name of protecting them; 7) bullshit gynocentrism which evades female responsibility for the things it describes and ignores all the areas in which men are demonized and culturally conditioned to things to their own disadvantage.

        My suggestion for you is that you do less talking and more listening and more learning. I again suggest you read the introductory articles of this site before sharing things like this hateful bunch of 7 items of total bullshit with us again.

      • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

        This woman may be able to help you, since I imagine you have trouble listening to anything men have to say (and certainly obviously haven’t bothered reading what any men here have to say):

        The feminist ideology in this FAQ you post is fundamentally based on hate, whether you’re aware of it or not.

      • Kimski

        “Feminism is a movement aiming to establish social/economic/political rights for women equal to that of men.”

        ROFL.

        So your movement is actually working for women to get stripped of all assets and the children in divorce courts, and subsequently 2/3 of their income in child support, while they themselves will be forced to live in cardboard boxes on street?

        Or 50% of the work related deaths, along with 50% of the casualties and deaths in wars?

        Or full accountability in the eyes of the law, when it regards child and spousal murders, false accusations, and false testimony?

        So how is that working for you?

        Well, never mind, and excuse me for saying this, but I think your movement is doing one hell of a piss poor job.

        Your movement should consider making it about female supremacy in all the aforementioned areas, ’cause that’s were it shows real talents and astounding results.

        /sarcasm off.

    • LL

      Stupid article, what a waste of time. Hembling might as well start of by saying “im not sexist, but..” before launching into his hate fuelled diatribe which essentially mimics the vitriolic, hateful attitude that he asserts all feminists have, or accept by adopting the term ‘feminist’ at all.

      This is a lame and simplistic attempt to brush aside feminism altogether which is indeed diverse and extreme in some forms (like any ideology). The responsibility of any academic is to examine ideological definitions in order to debate their meaning, not merely disregard them because they are too complex or have become associated with overly antagonistic, counter productive elements.

      The response which replaced ‘feminism’ with ‘national socialism’ is an excellent case in point of how ideological terms become corrupted, as Hitlers ‘national socialism’ was in fact no more Socialist than Chile was Democratic under Pinochet’s dictatorship. This is exactly why terms like ‘Feminism’ need to be continuously debated and perhaps re-defined, rather than being disregarded.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/NurdyDancing?feature=mhee Nurdy Dancing

    This one was the source of much butt hurt during my feminist days.

    • shmiggen

      lol! hey good job on those news vids, keep ‘em coming, please.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

    Feminism is the product and as consumers it’s important to know about the ingredients, like anything you poke in your mouth.

    If you’re going to ingest something filthy then it’s up to you to look up the manufacturers credentials and to be accustomed to the spices and herbs they use. (So to speak.)

    John the Other is on the money here, and when I was newer to all of this I would have tried to sort the wheat from the chaff.

    There is no wheat and no chaff I am afraid. Take a closer look at the product line. The material on sale is produced in a tanning factory and the wares come from the sewerage outlet.

    Fifty shades of Grey? Nope. You got the colour wrong.

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      Separating the good feminism from the bad feminism is like picking out the undigested corn and oats from horse shit. You would do better to get your corn and oats elsewhere, and spare yourself the bother of mucking around in shit.

      • VictorGarcia

        thats probably the best way ive heard anyone describe the “exceptions” idea.

  • ContraTerrene

    Thanks, John,

    A pretty damn clear and insightful view into the whole Nafalt morass,

  • Aimee McGee

    That’s why I use the term gender equality in circles that are not yet ready for the concept of the MRM!

  • Stu

    Am I imagining things or is this a transcript of one of GWW’s videos?

    • Stu

      No, I remember now, it was your rant, but she done it, because you lost your voice.

  • ronwisegamgee

    This article is eerily similar to arguments I’ve heard on how Christian and/or Islamic moderates or liberals legitimize their fundamentalist and extremest counterparts due to agreement about the core tenets of their faiths. What makes it even scarier is that the fundamentalists/extremes often times have a more accurate understanding of their holy texts than their moderate/liberal counterparts, due to the mods/libs retrofitting their religious views to their morality, rather than the other way around. And, as far as I’m aware of, there is no Feminism Bible/Qu’ran to actually sort out what’s what, and I’m not at all familiar with what feminist literature is at the forefront that is providing the ideology used to influence our politics and culture the most.

  • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

    Thank you John! This is exquisite. I’m sharing it on my blog, and bookmarking it for future reference. Lots and lots of future reference. I will be linking it as a comment, to every single online “feminist” with whom I engage. I’m also printing it out to distribute wherever I can.

  • zandelux

    Great article, John.

    It should also be pointed out that the one unifying belief of feminists (at least of every one I’ve encountered) is the belief in historical and/or current male oppression of women. Simply by allowing that myth to continue, they’re helping to propagate hatred of men as a group, and infantilization of women.

    While many feminist points of view haven’t yet been assimilated into society at large, I really believe the oppression myth has taken root deep in our culture. Even avowed non-feminists believe it, scarily enough. It’s one of the key ingredients in the blue pill.

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

      I disagree with one point. The only feminist point of view that hasn’t been fully (or openly) assimilated into society at large, is eugenics. Every other feminist point, nearly all of which lead subtlely toward eugenics, is very much a part of every aspect of society.

      • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

        …because the solution to every feminist “problem,” is to in some artificial way, reduce the human value of men. When men become useful objects instead of humans, they become completely disposable. Once half of the population becomes disposable, why spend the resources required to keep them alive?

  • Cultural_Expat

    Great piece again! Sue. Hoff Sommers elaborated well on the mish-mash of the multiple varietys of feminism that feminists could identify with. Feminists could pick and choose the mix of feminism just right for them. Its similiar to the choices they have in the shampoo aisle at W*lmrt. “Transmeditational psyche soothing coconut and baboon shit shampoo.” Trying to differentiate the minute differences of their feminism that they may use to appeal to you, or to sway your opinion is an utter waste of time. The fly the feminism flag, the get the one finger salute. Of course my response is internal, but basically I situationally stop or modify my dialogue with the birds of a feather!

  • Jay

    Absolutely brilliant JTO. Because I am a big supporter of liberalism. But the danger I see, is if the liberal feminists don’t use feminist in their title, then they will not be able to be as effective. Equally, if all the good feminists, such as the liberal feminists don’t use it as their title, then maybe people will see feminism for what it is – misandry pure and simple. However, I still reckon it would take decades, the public are just not smart.

  • http://none universe

    “And that’s why I don’t care what flavor of feminism you practice. You’re using the same brand name as murderous, eugenics enthusiast, destroy due process sexual apartheid gender ideologue elitists for whom violence isn’t just an unpleasant option.”
    – Uh-huh.
    And the same brand or flavours that very obviously ignores quite willfully the conditions of life of those whom they purport to seek equality with.

    * Male “dominated” society? That’s just men sent out to do the work.
    * Men paid 100 cents versus the 77 cents women allegedly work for. That’s men sent out to do the work and work the extra hours for years on end so she won’t have to so it.
    * Men working to, in many ways, support and entire culture with many compromising their overall health and familial status so she wouldn’t have to.
    Onward, and so forth, on and on and on and on, etc., etc. For every issue women and “feminists” fight for themselves under their own perversely invented and defined ideology of equality they ignore what common ordinary men had to do to get where and what they got. But the so-called women of today wish to forego all of the above (*) and more to receive an unequal, an unearned outcome. Yet receive it, too.
    Sick.
    Then there’s the “family” court issues. Obviously men are not on an equal footing with women concerning perjury, alimony, child custody, visitation yet!, etc., etc.
    Just sick.
    What a ridiculous charade this feminism, their version of equality is and how it is practiced.
    Just f^@k!ng sick.
    And for their self-unexamined lunacy the whole Western world has become near terminally ill.

    Yes, “nice” feminist – fuck you. And fuck off.
    Great piece JtO.

  • napocapo69

    my signature below this article.

    Thanks John, bold honest words

  • DragonFire

    Well said JtO….and I agree.
    Nothing annoys me more than to hear someone say “I’m a feminist, but I don’t believe what those other feminists believe”.
    If you use the same name, you are linking yourself with their beliefs, like it or not.

  • Estwald

    I AM A NAZI

    Now please, before you get excited, let me explain.

    I realize that there are some Nazis who hold extreme views, but I am not that kind of a Nazi. The foremost aim of the National Socialist movement is to attain equality for Germans within the European community. For many years there has been a social conspiracy to deprive Germans of their rights and we must bring this conspiracy to an end.

    Those who are concerned about the extremists within the National Socialist movement should discuss their concerns with the extremists. I cannot be held accountable for the opinions of every individual who calls himself (or herself) a Nazi.

    • Estwald

      On the other hand, I could just be a bad satirist. I’ll let you be the judge.

      • Tawil

        Ok, now I get it. I hadn’t actually read the article but I see now how your comment ties in. (I hope nobody comes here and takes it seriously).

        Good analogy to “nice” feminists.

        • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

          One of the things I love about this site is that it is one of the few places I know of that people with above average intellect congregate. That being said, I figure if anyone who actually reads the article, and then that comment, and does not make the connection and figure it for satire, then we are better off offending them. Too much time on this site with that level of brain power could cause a short circuit and a breakdown.

          As for the comment miners…Fuck ‘em.

          • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

            Manboobies? Not even with Gloria Steinem’s vagina!

          • scatmaster

            Suz, please.
            It is hard to eat when one talks about
            Gloria Steinem’s vaj. Have you seen her lately?
            Not even in her prime. Not even in her prime.
            Gross.

          • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

            Oddly enough I was already feeling nauseous when I wrote that. Perhaps I was sharing my misery. Unconsciously, of course!

          • Loy Finly

            Mr Elam,

            I have taken your comment here and will show the world the real and hidden meaning therein.

            They will be uploaded onto my site for future Wrongarians to tsk-tsk over.

            To “quote mine” your true words:

            One of the things I love about this site is that it is one of the few places I know of that people with above average intellect congregate. That being said, I figure if anyone who actually reads the article, and then that comment, and does not make the connection and figure it for satire, then we are better off offending them. Too much time on this site with that level of brain power could cause a short circuit and a breakdown.

            As for the comment miners…Fuck ‘em.

          • Tawil

            You devious piece of shit, I see what you are up too. To be honest Loy I believe that your mother gave birth to you out of Michael Flood’s arse.

          • scatmaster

            I believe that your mother gave birth to you out of Michael Flood’s arse.

            New keyboard, etc.

          • andybob

            Mr Finly, this is why you graduated with an extra gold star from David Futrelle’s on-line course, ‘Quote Mining for the Sneakily Inept and Obvious.” He will be very proud.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

            Andybob,

            Loy is a twit, ignore him. I have sent you an email.

          • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

            I am actually glad you posted. I have just received and assembled the Loy 9000. I noticed something funny about it though. On a sticker attached to the cheap shrink wrap, I found three interesting words. “Made in China”

            Now, I mean no offense to the Chinese. I understand they manufacture the holy hell out of very cheap electronics, some of which even work for a short period of time. But the way you talked about it, I thought this was going to be something a little more upscale.

            Then I noticed a piece of black tape on the box. I peeled it back and found, to my utter dismay the following words.

            “For ages 5-8 years”

            This really got me thinking. You know, I wondered if all those videos you made were fake. You know, the way they got all those guys at Monash Uni to hold up propaganda cards like they were POWs acting under threat of the gun.

            I listened to that Lester guy again, and that sealed it. I know a fucking fake Texas accent when I hear it. And that guy was not from Texas I tell you.

            I think maybe he was really you.

            Anyway. I just wanted you to know that I am on to you. The 9000 is a total scam. And so are you.

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

      Good satire. Manboobie is going to have a field day (or week) with that one.

  • tspoon

    Hi JTO, do you have any sources or links to sources with regards to the gender based policies of international aid agencies? It is something I have been interested in since I noticed in news that this type of thing occured in Haiti during the crises there.

  • yinyangbalance

    Typically when I have argue that Feminism is a hate movement, I get the response “Don’t judge Feminism and what it stands for based on a few radical Feminists. They don’t represent us”.

    I then make the argument that these “Nice” Feminists are the same ones that will say “Who hijacked Feminism?!”.

    Well, zoom out for a second. As a Humane loving and caring person, we should all be Critical Thinkers. The problem with Feminism is the same problem with MRA; Its a group, a “political party” and anyone is allowed in it as long as they say they are part of it, or in the case of Feminism they back date figures in history and claim them. The group has no head, or a million depending on how you look at it. To me it is no different than a GANG.

    GANGS are WRONG. And like Gangs and like political parties they “Issue bundle”, and they polarize everything Black White Red Blue, pick a side, you have to pick a side! Those not in Gangs are also a target, Gangs are known to force people to pick a Gang even if its not their own.

    And MRA is going down the same road.

    This is why I’m not MRA either. Right now this site is great under the banner of MRA but the MRA banner does this site no good, it only does the MRA good for providing a cover, for there are many members that are the polar opposite of these Feminists.

    Heed this warning, don’t become the BLOODS in your course of opposing the CRIPS. Don’t become the SURENOS when faced with a growing number NORTENOS.

    PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

      What? Who are these awful “MRAs” you don’t want us to emulate? Do they fight for legal equality between the sexes, like we do? If not, they aren’t really MRAs because they don’t equate men’s rights with all human rights. There is no comparison between MRAs and feminists. MRAs believe that men must regain equal rights with women; feminists believe women should have more rights than men. Male “activists” who think men should have more legal rights than women, are masculinists of some sort, not MRAs.

      Perhaps I misread you, but It seems you are mistaking MRAs for somebody else.

      • yinyangbalance

        Suz, if i take everything you wrote, and switch women/men and feminist/mra, what you get is the feminists response to criticisms of feminism. You made my point very clear. But by your very typical defensive and somewhat sarcastc response i believe you arent much interested in my point nor do you care to consider it. This modern western anglo world is very much polarized. If-you-are-not-this-you-must-be-that kind of thinking. Any minute now I might be accused of being a feminist troll…

        Anyhow, right now I am interacting with many MRA that have a deep hatred for the female sex for the damages that feminism has caused them. I have met anti-sex MRA’s as well, and pretty much mirror images of the worst feminists we see now that we love to hate, and plain old annoying MRA that insist on spelling women as “womyn”. I find it funny that the feminists in the Radfem Hub also mispell women as “womon”.

        But in all fairness, as it is, MRA, good and bad alike are no where near as harmful as the Feminists, they have zero funding unlike Feminisms half billion dollar yearly tax pork barrels.

        But one day, MRAs may look back on their movement and say “who hijacked MRA?” just like good feminists ask about their movement.

        • Mr. Sungame

          I used to think the same as you, BUT there are many factors which make the MRM and Feminism different.
          I agree that Suz words were unfortunate, but her point is not that far off.

          As I said I used to think the same as you, but I no longer do not. I now see a movement that s starting from a completely different starting point of feminism.
          MRA doesn’t see themselves as inherently discriminated against. We don’t believe that we have been historically discriminated against, nor do we believe we have historically held all the power.
          We do on the other hand ask that: “If we are going to have equality in society, let’s not forget about the men”.

          The MRA don’t have “Traditionalism envy” in the same way that the feminist movement has. We don’t talk about an equivalent of “Patriarchy” as the source of our oppression. Yes, we talk about “gynosentricsm” from time to time, but this is to illustrate the areas where feminist propaganda and rhetoric has swayed lawmakers to make laws that needlessly give preferential treatment to woman.

          Sure there are men within the movement who probably want to go back to “Traditionalism”, but most of us, if not all of us, see the potential in an equal society.
          I also see a movement that is a lot more accepting of differing views, and an open dialogue, who is willing to look at the data and back down if they see they were actually wrong.

          Does the MRM have the potential of becoming like the Feminists? Yes, I think we do. The potential is there, but just because we are talking about it before it happens means we might also avoid it.

          In the end I am an Egalitarian, and view the MRM as the best path to walk at the moment to assure that this happens.

    • napocapo69

      A matter of opinions.
      Your opinion makes no sense, just wonder for the sake of who, but you are allowed to post it.
      Defining MRA as political party is idiotic.
      Comparing MRAs with feminism just exposes bad will, since:
      – MRAs do not have an ideology
      – MRAs do not take public funds
      – MRAs are not hosted n public institutions
      – MRAs thoery is not teached in universities
      – not a single MRA has ever asked for privilege treatment of men

      BTW since you are here, can you mention something you have done for men rights?

      I can mention quite a bunch of things I’ve done for women in my past, without defining myself as a feminist.

      • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

        I am reading this in the admin and have not seen yingyyangy’s OP, but I am still betting the answer is NADA.

        • yinyangbalance

          Who are you talking to? Nada what? I post here regularly as well as on other anti-feminist forums. Im a human being.

          I think it is sad that im suddenly noticed not for any of agreements but for daring to go against the grain.

          This is very much the experience i have when criticising feminists. For doing so, face the possibility of being banned, labeled as XYZ and silenced. Sometimes the retaliation goes beyond that.

          Im going to warn you guys again, dont go being like mindless Zombie feminist…try thinking beyond group defense mode. You are going from being thinkers to being blind white blood cells on my ass. Sheesh.

          • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

            The angry men of whom you speak, may be anti-feminists, but they are not MRAs.

          • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

            Oh cry me a fucking river. Yes, you went against the commonly accepted wisdom here, which will get noticed in any environment. Unless you are stupid you would have to assume that people would challenge it. So please, get real.

            You have been challenged to back up your contention that in basic structure, the MRM is no different than feminism. It is a ridiculous statement that got rightly challenged, most succinctly by napocapo69 with the following:


            – MRAs do not have an ideology
            – MRAs do not take public funds
            – MRAs are not hosted n public institutions
            – MRAs thoery is not teached in universities
            – not a single MRA has ever asked for privileged treatment of men.

            And I am sure if he had spent more time on it he could have come up with many more distinctions.

            Now, your challenge here is to take on the rebuttal like you read and understood what it means, and not to caterwaul about the fact that you got shot down on what you said.

            If we want to compare people to feminists, I could start in on that one right away.

      • yinyangbalance

        I’m comparing MRA, Feminism, and Gangs to the 2 party bipolar political system of USA.

        You guys really don’t give two shits about what I’m saying. Just the fact that I posed criticism makes me an enemy now.

        Why don’t you all do the MRA a favor and show the world that you are not the polar opposite of Feminism….because right now you guys are showing me you are. Completely intolerant.

        • Sting Chameleon

          No dipshit, you don’t get to define your own terms of the discussion and attempt to paint us in a corner. So far you’ve done nothing but blow smoke up our asses, with no real point or argument to prove your case, and crying “intolerance!111!!!” when people ask you to explain yourself and make your fucking case.

        • Aimee McGee

          Rather than giving a negative ‘don’t do this’ get typing and create an article on how you think the MRM should be different. Take a ‘do it this way’ slant and you might just get some traction to your argument.

        • napocapo69

          Listen, first of all calm down.
          What you wrote in your first post, which, to many of us, sounded like “the victim of a rape is not better than than the rapist”.
          Then you got harsh comments from few “bad guys”, and came back with claims of intolerance.
          Maybe you did not realize it, but you posted nonsense smearing statements on MRA, probably beyond your intentions, by comparing “the victims to the perpetrators of a crime”, and when challenged, you, instead of getting the challenge to clarify it or just providing an apology statement, you played the next trump card … “you are intolerant” … that sounds much like “you are a bunch of misogynist”
          We are individuals living in different countries, different ages, coming from different cultural backgrounds; we are not part of a board that declared a war against you. Some of us, INDIVIDUALLY, felt that your comment was awful; other didn’t reply to you so they either agree with you or just felt it was not a relevant post. Either way, you have only to answer to each individual post, with reasonable clarifications, or just realize that you may have done something wrong or at least not clear.
          I made few posts in AvFM that did not get good “responses”; I never played trump cards.
          I made many posts in feminist blogs, usually hosted in institutional websites or national/international media websites; some of them were removed without justification. I never played the trump card even in that cases, I just FTSU.

        • Mr. Sungame

          “Why don’t you all do the MRA a favor and show the world that you are not the polar opposite of Feminism….”

          Hehe I once debated a feminist that, after hearing my stance on life replied:
          “But aren’t MRA the opposite of feminism, what you want is what feminists want”

          You see there is a lot of merit in what she said. MRM is NOT the opposite of feminism, and we DO want what feminists claim they want; Equality. But sadly feminism got greedy, or maybe never understood what it meant to be equal, and lobbied for preferential treatment in a lot of areas. The MRM gained it’s traction when people began seeing that feminism wasn’t practicing what they were preaching, and gained even more traction when feminists instead of shifting focus to other injustices that needed help for equality, instead chose to come up with more and more convoluted reasons for why woman are oppressed.
          There is a reason why one of the subtitles of AVFM is “Counter Theory”, it’s not the opposite theory, it is there to counterbalance the way we move forward.
          MRM will help us back on the path most of us thought the feminists wanted to walk.

          And really, in the other comments (which are a year old), there might be things that feel a lot like what you see on feminist forums. But anger based on lies and anger based on inconvenient truths are not the same type of anger.
          I personally try and temper my anger, as I get very unreasonable when I get angry. And I prefer to stay cool headed.

    • Skeptic

      I think your argument is daft.
      Sure some extremists who hate women because of the pain they’ve had inflicted on them by gynocentric culture will emerge, but there’s a world of difference between that and what’s happened with feminism and feminists.
      For the fact is as JtO stated in the article and you should have noted – even ‘moderate’ ‘reasonable’ feminists haven’t rushed to challenge the openly man hating types of feminists.
      Don’t believe me?
      Well go online and tell me anywhere you see a mainstream feminist big name challenging, oh, well, let’s see the SCUM Manifesto, patriarchy theory, or women like Sharon Osbourne and the pack of hens on TV laughing and scoffing openly at male genital mutilation.
      On second thought don’t waste your time.
      Some of us have done the journey for you and guarantee you won’t find such a thing anywhere.
      Now contrast that with what happens at aVfM, and you’ll see when the odd angry guy comes along and offers so much as a scrap of rhetoric inciting anti-female violence he’s barred and told in no uncertain terms he’s NOT AN MRA.

      Take a moment to think about that last sentence.

      Maybe a few loonies will try to co-opt the name MRA, but unlike with feminism there are plenty enough fair-minded MRAs around to make sure it doesn’t happen.
      So I don’t share your negativism regarding the MRA name.

    • Aimee McGee

      Why are you ignoring one basic aspect of human nature, humans form groups. Groups are about identity and are not bad unless the group think prevents debate.
      I was in the middle of a recent storm in a teacup over my article on hypergamy. Paul published it even though his opinion was different and I found the debate useful in refining my ideas on the topic, and would even agree my position has shifted somewhat towards supporting discussion of hypergamy as a result of the debate.
      I would caution you from presuming that the anger amongst many MRAs is about the hatred of women. Anger can be a useful emotion if channelled to activism, hate just destroys.

  • Kukla

    Honestly, there is no “nice” feminists. There’s only radicals and casual misandrists.

    I get tired of hearing them screech about how feminist is about “equality”, bullshit. When men are given a supposed “advantage” over women feminists scream “EQUALITY FOR EVERYONE!” However when women are given an advantage over men suddenly they’re silent and perfectly okay with it.

    There is NO identity-political movement that ISN’T hateful. La Raza, Black Panthers, KKK, Aryan Brotherhood etc. The only difference with femifascists is that they are not always direct with their hatred, they like it quiet and covert.

    • Jay

      Sex positive, liberal, humanist feminists tend to be good people, fighting for very important causes such as the normalization of sex work. They identify as feminists. These are people who support civil liberties and tend to have the opposite views on many issues as the radical/normal feminists (who are simply misandrists).

      Indeed, if feminism was about gender equality and civil liberties, then I and many of us here could also identify as feminists. But as we know, mainstream feminism is misandry, pure and simple. All these ‘good’ feminists need to direct their efforts at educating the public about mainstream feminism and misandry.

      Here is a link to an article about the brutal gang anal raping of males, and how nobody much cares:
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

      • Kukla

        I know, but even those “sex positive, liberal, humanist feminists” are STILL feminists. They still believe that men are oppressors and women are victims, as well as the “patriarchy”. Those things are inherent to all feminism, which is why I don’t support any of it. I simply don’t agree with it at all. They may not be hateful, but they are still deluded feminists.

        And yes that article is certainly very tragic. I find it funny to see how feminists are silent about that as well.

        • Bev

          The silence and cover up by the UN, NGO’s and feminists is nothing new it is how the have operated for ever not just on this but on DV, family law and every other aspect of anything that counters the feminist message. Before the internet it was easy to censor now not so easy. Anybody who has been fighting against feminism for a long time will tell you that. Paul once said something like “What if there was a gender war and men decided to come”(sorry Paul if I got it wrong but is was a great statement. Pity we don’t hear it now). Well now the censorship wall is breaking down. Early days but the first shots have been fired in what will be a long and bloody war. If that analysis disappoints new arrivals remember the feminists have a 40 year start.

      • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

        ” They identify as feminists.”
        That’s precisely the problem. If they promote the well-being of males, they aren’t feminists. Why on earth do they call themselves “feminists?” Feminism is by definition pro-female, a stance that cannot be realized without a cost to someone other than females. Feminism can’t NOT be anti-male.

        • andybob

          If any one of those ungrateful little upstarts dares to peel off the feminist label, there is a po-faced big sister ready to slap it back on:

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/katherine-fenton-debate-question_b_1979952.html

          In “Why I’m a Feminist With a Big, Fat, Loud EFF,” Soraya Chemaly claims with a completely straight face that:

          ” When people say “I’m not a feminist,”…it’s…a testament to the success of at least 40 years of conservative backlash branding feminism [as] the devilish work of man-hating, barren, aggressive, ugly (no greater sin), humorless, lesbian she-devils.”

          Considering the fact that the entire article a is man-hating, aggressive and humourless rant by an ugly, barren lesbian, Ms Chemaly reveals more than she intended. She adds:

          “Feminism is a transformative, revolutionary human and civil rights movement and we should be proud of its accomplishments. There should be fireworks and barbeques and parades. There should be statues and songs.”

          There are: it’s called the U.S. Presidential Inauguration. Alas, from this point on, Ms Chemaly relies on the slogans she furiously scribbled onto her big pad during her Women’s Studies 101 course in 1994 – slogans she has sewn into the victim quilt she cries into every night:

          “Remember this is the same culture…that revels in making women the instruments of their own undoing… everything from blaming them for their own rapes to denying them reproductive justice and then castigating them for “personal irresponsibility” to making their lifetime economic vulnerability not the result of economic systems optimized for male breadwinners but, instead, a matter of their own bad choices.”

          Don’t you just love how ‘personal responsibility’ is in quotes? is this to highlight how alien it is to the rest of Ms Chemaly’s vocabulary, like a foreign language? Mr favourite quote is:

          “As a writer, I daily grapple with words and their meaning as they pertain to privilege, power and oppression.”

          Yes dear, we know. How else would you have managed to so completely distort and twist their meaning to fit your own dogmatic agenda? She even quotes a kind of guilt list of bullet points (straight out of the Ministry of Truth) which she believes should be “posted in schoolrooms, gyms and office kitchenettes” to remind us all why we should worship “Big F” Feminism. Of course, she isn’t bullying or indoctrinating here. It’s all for our own good.

          If this is the kind of bullying women confront from the stubby-fingered feminists critiquing their every move, it makes me all the more impressed by our brave and free-thinking Lady MRAs.

          • Tawil

            “There are: it’s called the U.S. Presidential Inauguration.”

            Absolutely true!

            “If this is the kind of bullying women confront from the stubby-fingered feminists critiquing their every move, it makes me all the more impressed by our brave and free-thinking Lady MRAs.”

            Indeed, the sisterhood -feminist and non- ruthlessly monitor the tiniest facets of every woman. Just walk down the street with a woman and look at the female eyes scanning her, sizing her up, judging her. And woe betide if she transgresses the code…. she’s cast out to the nether-regions of society, excommunicated from all the girly fun and friendships.

            The women here who dare to stare big sister in the face are formidable

          • Roger O Thornhill

            Andybob,

            Bravo, that’s all I can say. So I’ll say it again, Bravo!

      • John A

        Jay. thanks for that link, I will forward it to my well meaning feminist friends and relatives; that should make their day. Hopefully they won’t sleep well after reading it.

        The events described in that article are beyond sickening.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

    OT but then again is it ever?

    Clementine Ford is up to her old tricks again.
    http://www.warrenadvocate.com.au/story/726656/how-to-demean-a-woman/?cs=24

    I left a comment and please, can you do so also. Dr Canning brought this one to my attention. Thanks Greg.

    =======================================
    Ah yes, Ms Ford is at it again.

    Like all peddlers of feminism the string that binds all discussion must include the victim role. Of course, the participants in this puerile website that asks for body bits have no agency. The naked photos they send in just walk out the door and zoom right online by themselves.

    What childish toddler like minds women must have? They must be protected from themselves. What an absurd assertion that is don’t you think?

    If you take the approach that women have once again be victimised then think again, adult females do have agency and this is counter intuitive to the ideology of feminism. Ms Ford how can you not see this?

    Your article smacks as a conduit for your misandric position and is part and parcel of the very stripe of the female-is-victim angle.

    Eff Doff

    ========================================

    • Bev

      Yes I was on to this got one comment in there but two others were moderated out. The one to watch this month will be the spate of articles leading up to white ribbon day (25 nov). The Punch and the Faifax press will I assume lead the push. With Tory Shepard front and centre at the Punch.

    • Rper1959

      Feminism has historically maligned men simply for being men based on a tiny fraction of men being evil and doing bad things. They generalise the worst traits of the worst examples of men to paint all men as inherently evil. This of course is wrong and has been taken to extreme by feminists. However honest decent men have always dissociated themselves from the few bad ones, and here in lies the difference, feminists happily take on the same title and core ideals of the most obscene rad fems, therefore it is correct to generalise that all feminists ( but clearly not all women) subscribe to an ideology of hate as JTO has so eloquently described.

    • Roger O Thornhill

      Dr F,

      I went and read the article, but didn’t see your comment there?

      • Rper1959

        They have not published my comment either, generally the femfax media will moderate out MRA’s comments, but it’s likely Clementine will see them and thats the important thing and enough reason to keep commenting. One day they may realise dishonesty and stifling of debate they partake in, the anti-thesis of a free media.

        • Bev

          Perhaps the secret is not to enter a new comment. I usually reply to somebody else refuting their claims. So long as it is not to outragous it will be allowed as a counter point.

        • Roger O Thornhill

          I posted this comment earlier:

          I’ll say this: It’s interesting the lengths to which people will go to defend this kind of ideology, and how their defence immediately becomes about the perceived failings of those who don’t like it.

          And guess what happened then?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

            It went missing like a sock in the Whirlpool mate.

      • MarkofWisdom

        me either. I’m guessing they were “lost” by the moderators

  • Dennis

    Whether it’s GWW or JTO the truth should be repeated 10,000 times so people can really hear it. That this is a text closely following the video GWW made doesn’t matter in the least.

    I would add to it that the most fundamental tenant of all feminism: The idea of a patriarchy that exists to benefit all men while oppressing all women is a viciously misandrist concept to begin with and fosters very perverse unjust social attitudes toward men. All of feminism springs from this sick socio/political ideology.

    • Bev

      Without the belief that there is such a thing as the patriarchy feminism collapses like a house of cards. Dig into the moderate feminists beliefs and it will surface. It’s not that women have chosen not to invent things become CEO’s etc because they don’t want to it’s got to be an outside agency holding them back is the central belief any other belief puts the onus on women for their position.

  • Verdad

    Hmm…so many different flavors to choose from, I guess we all have had our taste of the many “succulent” varieties of feminism. This eagerness to conform, to follow the crowd and try out the latest flavor while attempting to mix in something new perhaps dims our desires to break free. Interesting…all of these flavors have now become strangely sour…

  • Primal

    This is probably one of the most important articles on the site. All feminists need to know that they will be tarred with the same bigoted brush as long as mainstream feminism is unopposed. The best pejorative an honest feminist can earn is ‘anti-feminist’ from her mainstream sisters.

  • Brigadon

    Feminism- n (Phem-en-nis’m) from latin, Femina (female) and the suffix ‘ism’ denoting study, science, or support thereof.

    The Belief that females are inherently inferior to males.

    Politically, the belief that female inferiority requires constantly-increasing advantages (see blackmail) in order to achieve justice (see logical fallacies: begging the question)

    Philosophically, the philosophical conjecture that equality can be achieved through vengeance. (see logical fallacies: Two wrongs make a right.)

  • Booyah

    Feminism is a huge dragon that has conquered governments, academia and the family unit just as some of the casualties. If you support it in any way you are merely one of the many bodies carrying that ugly devouring head. So I really dont care what colour of gloves your wearing or flavour of feminism your drinking. It all supports that ugly head which consumes all in its path anyway.

    Great article JtO. I felt much this way before I read it.

  • gilgamesh

    I never really figured out how to counter the “I’m not like that lol” defense, but I sure don’t believe it. I don’t really care if they actually believe whatever they’re trying to feed me, it was their responsibility to research the actual meaning of feminism (here’s a hint: why would a movement about equality call itself feminism?) As far as I can tell any time a feminist is saying “I’m not like that” she’s doing so in bad faith-I’m sure misandrists like the posters on the radfem hub are nowhere to be found as soon as you challenge them. Anyway, I don’t think that sleazy women pulling the “no true Scotsman” defense are entitled to a word of lip-service before I can bring up debtors’ prison, work related deaths, male-on-male or female-on-male rape, or any of the other things feminists think are less important than the minor slights they claim to experience every day.

  • http://forsakeneagle.blogspot.com/ ForsakenEagle

    Great article John! The feminists who pretend to be moderates and ignore the loudmouths are just as bad.

    To all feminists:
    You are not fooling anyone here. Don’t speak to us about being for men’s rights yet attacking us from the sidelines and letting the radicals act without inquiry. If you want to prove your for men’s rights, stop shaming men for defending their rights and speak out against the people who talk insanity!

  • 20sides

    This is a powerful article, although I think the sentiments here are broader even than the matter at hand. Its a common tactic amongst various interlocutors in the age of the internet to eschew accountability by proclaiming the docility of one’s own views in comparison to another’s.

  • Militarytruthseeker

    So in this example all Nazis are Bad?

    So somehow, even the good ones whose legitmate goals were overshadowed by the enormity of the political machine that branded it by birth, still fly the Nazi flag, are somehow still confused most people have little stomach for the good Nazis who keep flying the flag of the “bad” Nazis?

    This is a pianfully long run-on sentance.

    Perhaps the good Nazis should stop flying the Flag of the Bad Nazis, and seperate themselves.

  • themischi

    the thing is, i do see where you’re coming from, i really do. however you have completely misinterpreted feminism. as a feminist who is able to think for herself, i am not blindly accepting something without always questioning it first. i watched the videos and, again, they aren’t relevant cus they are not talking about feminism. feminism is a fantastic movement, and is *not* based on hate (again, as a member of the feminist community, i feel i have the authority to say that – do not imply i am ignorant, that’s not fair). yes, feminism does focus on women, and no, that is not inherently sexist. you could claim the civil rights movement to be inherently racist with that same argument. besides, i have read a few of these articles and snidey calling all female icelandic politicians “lesbians” is totally unfair, homophobic and as a statement is way more inherently sexist. you raise good points about male rape, but again, as i mentioned, feminism (although focussing on women) does indirectly benefit men (there are also masculist groups who work alongside feminist groups for the same cause, which is great – look it up). anyone preaching female supremacy is ***not*** a feminist, even if they call themselves that. the fact (yes, fact!) we operate as a society under patriarchy is not something to be debated here – look up patriarchy! also look up feminism, the dictionary defines it as: “the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.”

    also, you claim that we have always operated under a system which benefits women – this is quite frankly ridiculous. rape in marriage was legal unti the 90s, and women have only been able to vote for around 100 years. look at porn – it is a sort of ‘politically incorrect’ way that really represents society – women are the sex object for men to enjoy. i have no issue with porn, but it is totally aimed at men, and women watch porn too! i like how you also have ignored the wage gap issue.

    you mention that you can’t have an open/honest discussion with a feminist. i am trying to have one here, yet it is *you* who told me to “do less talking”, swearing and being generally quite condescending. i am interested in equality for all, and would like you to see feminism for a feminists perspective (this, again, is not something to be debated – i am feminist, this is what i understand of feminism). also i wrote that FAQ myself, so it is not ‘bullshit’ – it is, after a *lot* of studying and experience, what i believe and understand of feminism.

    i understand that there are several inequalities which hurt men – men go to war, the parental advantage issue (which i have already explained) etc., however these are all issues that come directly from the oppression of women – women are seen as weak/caring/etc and you have to understand that even the concepts of feminine/masculine are society created rather than biological (again, this is fact – look it up, don’t just say ‘bulshit’). also, i hope you notice that i have been sourcing things, i would like for you to do this too in yr reply.

    i will close with this: if you think women are a privileged group, how do you explain the following :

    1. the wage gap
    2. prostitution/strip clubs
    3. normalised street harrassment (oi luv nice tits etc) (no it is not a compliment, and no it is not okay)
    4. magazines for ‘women’ – all about clothes/make up etc. whereas magazines for ‘men’ are cars/computers etc. how patronising is that, right?
    5. “she’s pretty good for a girl”

    i am really interested in hearing your replies because although i very much disagree with your views, i am interesting in finding out how they were formed. the above list is a very small list, and as i watched the videos you posted, i would like for you to read through this: http://www.everydaysexism.com/

    thank you for reading

    • Deucalion

      “as a feminist who is able to think for herself”
      No such thing. If you could think for yourself instead of automatically spewing the bullshit you do, you wouldn’t be a feminist.
      But you are, so piss off.

      Oh, and all 5 of those questions you raised? Answered and explained (mostly) but I wouldn’t expect someone stupid enough to be a feminist to read anything that doesn’t involve cutting off a penis.

      “it is, after a *lot* of studying and experience, what i believe and understand of feminism.”
      Your belief is irrelevant, and your understanding is laughable.
      So again, piss off.

    • Gush Gosh

      1. Women don’t need to earn more, therefore don’t strive to earn more, therefore don’t pursue more lucrative careers, overtime, and things that would make them earn more. But they admit to spend 80% on average of the total house income. They might earn less, but they have more buying power.Of course this power is given to them and they lose independence with it, but I never saw a woman complaining about it (or a man if they are put in this situation).
      2. I’ve almost worked at a strip club and I can guarantee you, the whores are usually happy and fulfilled. Now we could allow them to have a legal work, with protection under the law, or we could do the feminist walk and call them victims while denying them their agency, safety, and rights.
      3. It’s normalized for both sexes. And it’s not a crime and it’s hardly a nuisance. As a person who is and was targeted for what you call “street harassment” I find it nothing more than an inconvenience. I rather have a hundred random persons complementing me on my ass than a single bastard playing shitty music on speakers on the bus. And I’ve been targeted for actual sexual harassment and violence. So I know that are worse things than that. If the person is not stalking or forcing itself, it’s protected under freedom of speech.
      4. Women make those magazines, women buy it. It’s what women want. I find those magazines a shitty piece of sensationalist media, but they are free to buy and sell whatever they want.
      5. The same as “he’s pretty good for a boy.” If the person is not used to it consider to be your class of people doing a kind of thing in a particular manner, they will say something in those lines. Happened to me, happened to everyone close to me, regardless of gender.

    • Gush Gosh

      Oh… you posted the everydysexism thing.
      Ok, on the point 4 I would like to add that the reason they buy and sell that shit is the same why you buy and sell everydaysexism. You want someone to feed your biases and you want to feed them to others.
      One example is the whore’s dilemma. Most women either believe most women to be whores and themselves not to be, while behaving exactly like all the other women and denouncing them on that (including getting very violent). Or they believe every women have the right to be a whore exempt of criticism, while calling men dogs for the same behavior, and denouncing other woman when their whoring behavior is in conflict with their interests.
      The same goes with being fat/skinny, rich/poor, and so on.
      And magazines sell exactly this bullshit.
      For example, you site everyday sexism while fully knowing men die more, earlier, are the vast majority of victims of crime, and that even with gender parity being fully acknowledged in inter-relational violence experts, man are more punished by it even when being the victims, receive little to no support when victimized, and are target of mainstream jokes when they are. And you decided to compare that to a fully discredited wage gap myth, agency employed by a perfectly valid line of work (I’d be one if I felt confident on my capabilities for it), single sparse and harmless random person vocal interaction, self inflicted impulse buying of toxic media created by their group for their group, and something that literally happens to everybody.

  • Estwald

    …rape in marriage was legal until the 90s…

    …legal for husband and wife – man and woman – alike.

    …the concepts of feminine/masculine are society created rather than biological…

    When you say that they are “society created” are you saying that they have been artificially imposed?

    What is the process through which society creates gender roles?

    …i hope you notice that i have been sourcing things…

    …you mention that you can’t have an open/honest discussion with a feminist. i am trying to have one here…

    Is this an example of how you have an honest, open discussion – citing sources… ?

    …is not something to be debated here…

    …or this… ?

    …this, again, is not something to be debated –

    …or is this a better example?

    …this is quite frankly ridiculous.

    =

  • http://www.facebook.com/1singur Stefan Dumitrache

    TL;DR, why not just tell feminists to go fuck themselves?

  • Rachel G

    Absolutely amazing article. It’s my hope that calling someone a “feminist” will some day garner the emotional revulsion of say, being called the “N” word. Girls are too quick to label themselves by that most egregious name. Unfortunately, most people believe everything they are taught in school without investigating the current reality with unfettered eyes. Feminism is not what they told you it was. Just like politicians are so fond of doing, they put out misinformation that is directly contrary to the truth. They literally label things with exactly the opposite title they deserve. It really confuses people who are less then diligent. The title feminism still gets a knee-jerk emotional reaction rivaled only by that of Pavlov’s dog. I’m afraid most average women will not get it until a man they love is victimized by these vile, socialist b*tches and their lap dog companions. I’m a powerful women, not because I disparage men, but because I’m a fully developed individual.

    • Stu

      I could wrote that myself, except for the last sentence.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/LilMissDiscord Hannah

    I don’t consider myself a feminist, I consider myself an equalist, I don’t believe that ensuring the well-being of women requires men to suffer, nor do I place one gender higher than the other. Both sides have their issues to cope with, some are similar and some are miles apart. The problem I find is that some people seem to want to make it a competition “his pain against her pain” “her trauma against his trauma” what one gender should be able to cope with or should not be making a big deal about.
    Male rape is probably far more unreported than female rape because there is so much shame about it and such little support for male abuse survivors. Does this mean that women who are raped don’t deserve care? Of course not. It just shouldn’t be gender specific. Neither gender should be placed as the permanent “victim” nor the permanent “predator” instead we should focus on the individuals who have suffered and struggled and work to support them.
    What good does it do to teach young women to fear or mistrust males? That doesn’t create the possibility for healthy long-term, loving relationships, it warps their minds.
    And while I believe that women deserve the right to vote (which in most places we have), and should be paid equal wage to men, it shouldn’t be a case of women are suddenly promoted more often to level the playing field. It shouldn’t be a matter of ones genitals to determine priority for optimum employment or wage, it should be the skill level that one brings to the job.
    I find myself getting far more frustrated with over-the-top feminists than I do with men who often are just trying to make a reasonable point. But it seems that many who call themselves feminists just want an excuse to spread around gender-hate which is uncalled for and unhelpful. But that’s just my opinion.

  • crydiego

    Hannah you said: “Male rape is probably far more unreported than female rape because there is so much shame about it and such little support for male abuse survivors. Does this mean that women who are raped don’t deserve care?”

    I have never read of anyone on this site saying women don’t deserve care. What I read here is that the organizations providing, promoting, and being paid by taxpayers to manage that care exclude men. How can anyone combat this without speaking out against them; you can’t.

  • Bolo

    Fuck feminism. Here is my wonderful words of wisdom for those who support feminism’s bigotry.

    The next time your male buddy doesn’t get the job because a woman got it due to a quota laws. The next time your male buddy gets 0 due process due to a false allegation. The next time your male buddy gets raked over the coals in a family court situation.

    You can thank feminism. All the femi-tard lurkers that read this, you can take feminism and shove it right up your asses where the sun don’t shine.

  • andnoreligion2

    I wanna show this to my feminist friend who claims to be this kind of feminist but I have a feeling all the “fuck you”s at the end wouldn’t go down too well :/

  • DebbieDerpington

    Fuck off, no one cares about your hurt feelings. I’m not going to prioritize your damaged egos over women being targeted and murdered for being women.

    • Zarathos022

      U Mad, Sis?

    • FireBits

      Yep.. that is why men’s right movement is needed, because no one cares about feelings of men and boys, or bothers to think that much ahead that when men and boys are neglected it will reflect right back to women’s issues. Because in reality social issues are connected, because we are same species. We coexist and if we want to do that by living a happy life, we need to fix everyones societal problems. If we only “fix” (try to fix) it for women.. boat keeps leaking, because hurt men and boys will pass their suffering onwards to next generation of men and women. So we will then have hurt men, boys, women and girls forever and forever.

    • Mick Price

      This isn’t about “hurt feelings” this is about a lying, violent, powerful, dysfunction ideology that causes real problems. Nobody is asking you to prioritize damaged egos over anything, but you’ve done it anyway.