An illustration of a nice deep space planet background

Guys, don’t do that

Recently I’ve been struggling with the most difficult paradigm shift I have ever experienced. I found myself rethinking core aspects of my personal reality. This was a change substantially more difficult than abandoning my belief in God and religion.

I’m speaking of my abandonment of feminism, as I knew it, and the death of my feminist identity.

Occasioning this shift of perspective was ongoing conversation with friends who identify as men’s rights activists (MRA’s). I spoke with them, asked them questions and actually listened to them. It turns out they make a solid argument for their cause, and they weren’t just “cranky.”

Even as a self-identified feminist I did not believe the influence of patriarchy lurked around every corner, but I did think that it was responsible for many of the general responses to women in social, sexual and financial contexts. My MRA acquaintances showed me, and actually convinced me, that many of my beliefs on those matters were simply false. I was so wrong, in fact, that the fact that I never realized it before now shocks me. Patriarchy, feminists claimed, was embedded in almost every area of society, but it was not what I had been taught it was.

I did not handle this information well, and my immediate emotional response was so disturbing that my feminist perspective didn’t have a fighting chance. Their evidence seemed so logical that I didn’t bother to rationalize on behalf of my former feminist paradigm.

Since this sudden and thoroughly unpleasant shift in my perception, I have taken time to consider the claims of my friends in as detached and philosophical a manner possible.

In doing so, I considered the sources of my own confidence, success and empowerment. Confidence, I believe, is derived from the natural warm fuzzy feeling experienced after accomplishing goals. In other words, confidence is gained through success, which is generally only achieved by determination and perseverance. Empowerment, it seems, is only achieved by taking control of ones own life and does not occur with out success.

The motivation to gain confidence, success and empowerment is driven by our desire for comfort and our fear of failure and its accompanying negative consequences. Stay with me, I promise, I am going somewhere with this.

After these realizations I asked myself a question.

Do men in any way prevent women from gaining confidence, success and empowerment?

I looked back on my own personal journey to gain control of my life. I considered the stumbling blocks I encountered. I’m not talking about the normal things that happen when one starts out to make ones own way, such as remembering to not forget to pay ones light bill or coming up with the money to take care of emergencies. The major stumbling blocks I encountered, in pursuit of confidence, success and empowerment, were men.

I had decided to start dating again even though I was no where near where I wanted to be in my personal life. Boy, was that ever a mistake. While trying to figure my own way out of my problems, and I made very sure to let any man I got involved with know that I did not want prince charming to swoop in and save me. What I wanted was companionship, and for potential rescuers to to keep their hands and wallets out of my life. Each of them seemed to agree that this was an admirable goal and promised not to go “white knight” on me.

But whenever I so much as mentioned a problem, no matter how trivial, their first response was to offer up not encouragement but to solve the problem for me. Because they were “nice” guys. They were attempting to protect me from the possibility of failure, which for me is at the heart of my motivation. Without the possibility of failure, how could I continue my struggle to be a fucking grown up?

To borrow a line from from Rebecca Watson; Guys, don’t do that!

That’s right. Don’t.

I’m speaking to men of all colors ages and walks of life, particularly men who identify as feminists. When you jump in to solve a woman’s problems and valiantly save her from any possibility of failure or discomfort, YOU are patriarchy.

“But, Nurdy!” you may say, “what are we supposed to do? After all there are a number of safety nets and failsafes in place for women on a broad international level!”

Yes, I know it seems daunting, but this is the influence of patriarchy and it is sooo deeply ingrained in our society that it is going to take a very long time to un-root it so that women will finally achieve the goal at the heart of feminism. You know, women’s empowerment. The motto is “feminism is the radical notion that women are people,” but you and I know that children are people, too. I’m sure what they meant to say is that women are adults.

This is going to take a massive effort at the grass roots level, and every man can do his part.

Do you have a girlfriend who enjoys buying more than she can afford and has trouble making ends meet by the end of the month? If she asks you for help, you can help her by allowing her figure it out on her own. She just might decide against repeating her mistake the next month. Of course she might elect to remain irresponsible and move on to a less motivating man, but you’ll have a little more money in your pocket.

See that girl who drank herself into oblivion and is presently passed out on the curb? For the sake of her motivation not to do so again, Please Do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT scoop her up take her indoors and wrap a blanket around her. Also resisting the urge to save her has the added benefit of protecting you from any false accusations.

Does your sister squander her money on frivolous nonsense, then call you when she finds her self unable to pay her light bill at the end of the month? Don’t solve this problem for her. If you do, how will she ever learn? It is your responsibility to her to pave the way to her empowerment. How will she ever grow up and become your equal if you don’t do it for her?

Do you have a female employee who bursts into tears when you call her in to discuss her frequent extended lunch breaks? Resist the urge to console her and write her up the way you would any male employee. Better yet, fire that slacker. That should teach her a valuable lesson in punctuality, which her next employer will appreciate. Because, gentlemen, how will women ever reach the respectability of fully actualized adulthood if you don’t do it for them?

This is only a tiny sample of the things every man can do, or more precisely, not do, to help. Perhaps you can’t give women empowerment, but you can sure as hell give them motivation. An organized and concerted effort from all the men in any woman’s life can drive that woman to empower herself and take full responsibility for her survival. Every man in agreement can motivate all women to self-empower and bring us one step closer to a day when sex is not a determining factor for any law or the funding of any social service.

In conclusion, in order to do your part, when you see a woman in trouble, don’t rob her of her motivation.

Don’t step up.

Don’t be a white knight

DO NOT “man up.”

Instead “man down” and step back, for equality.

About Natasha Douglas

Natasha is a blogger, vlogger, recreational bellydancer, a reader, rather tall and most recently a traitor to her gender. She is also a mother who understands that someday her son, who is presently a toddler will grow up, and have to survive in this world

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  • Iron John

    Welcome Nurdy Dancing! I’ve been watching your YouTube videos recently and have been most impressed with them. I am glad that you have decided to join us officially and look forward to what you have to both say and write.

  • Arvy

    First, welcome. Great advice.

    I’m much less sure than you, however, that “what they (feminists) meant to say is that women are adults.” In many instances, their entire philosophy seems to revolve around that other feminist tendancy that you mentioned of childishly blaming every obstacle and hindrance they encounter on the big bad “patriarchy.”

    That said, I fully agree that men must accept a very large share of the responsibility for the current situation. Their “white knightism” seems to know no bounds. You might even regard it as the masculine equivalent of the maternal instinct, but reserved primarily, if not exclusively, for female children and those who play that role as many seem to do whenever it suits their own convenience. The whole “women and children” equation has some very deep roots in chivalric “manliness” certainly not always discouraged by women even in current-day crisis situations.

    Congratulations on your escape from the childishness that is encouraged by some members of both sexes. Maybe some men will actually listen to women telling it like it is. A lot of them seem quite deaf to their fellow men.

    • The Real Peterman

      I agree: most feminists don’t want women to be treated as adults. Usually when you offer a feminist advice, under the theory that she is responsible for her own actions, she throws a fit. “What do you mean, don’t let a stranger get me drunk? I should be able to get as drunk as possible anywhere I want, and someone else should prevent bad things from happening to me!” And so on.

  • silzbo

    ahhh, i appreciate the change in attitude, but i think there’s going to be a bit more work to rid yourself of your feminist indoctrination. telling guys not to do something, even if it’s counter to what most feminists say, is still shaming.

    • Paul Elam

      I disagree. I tell white knights to knock the shit off all the time. No plans on stopping, either.

      • silzbo

        as do i, every single day! it seems to me it’s the preaching of a former feminist who’s simply changed her tune, but not her technique. just reminds of the notion that feminists should dictate the behavior of men.

        • Paul Elam

          To each his own. I care about the message, not the messenger.

    • Tawil

      Thats a bit of shaming crap you just belched out yourself, silzbo. I see no shaming in Nurdy’s recommendation, is just good advice.

      Haters gonna hate.

      As far as I’m concerned its sage advice worth repeating- Stop white knighting… its in nobody’s best interest. There you go, I just shamed the entire world.

      • silzbo

        her advice is sound, i agree with every fiber of it. coming from a former feminist, it may ring a little condescending, and tends to resemble the wealth of articles with nothing but contempt for men.

    • Ray

      When it comes to anticipating the range of women’s expectations, many times it seems like even when you’re right your wrong. I have told an apparently feminist woman on more than one occasion (when reproached for not letting a door bang shut on her), “Oh don’t worry, I do the same for men.”

      Okay, that used to be true, but not anymore. After living in feminist ruled California for as long as I have, now when I see it’s not a man, or some non-feminist woman I might know, I just let go of the door – especially at college.

    • MenDiscontinued

      Was just a witty title in regards to the Rebecca Watson incident. 😉

  • Shrek6

    Welcome Nurdy Dancing to AVfM.
    Good article and great advice indeed. Yes it is the driving force in every man to stoop down and pick up a fallen woman. But, we must now step back.

    This is what this site is all about. Most men here are aware of what you say and are slowly re-educating themselves, so that they don’t commit to this behaviour and expectations anymore.

    Anyway, good to see you have been able to get out of the childish sisters army, and bring yourself into the land of adults!

  • Phil in Utah

    Excellent advice. I will admit that I do help women solve problems at work, but that’s my job. I help men, too. Though I have noticed that in the long term, women seem to like me better if I give them hints than if I tell them the answer.

  • Ray

    “But whenever I so much as mentioned a problem, no matter how trivial, their first response was to offer up not encouragement but to solve the problem for me.”

    Sorry Nurdy dancing, no deal, and it’s not about Patriarchy, it’s about being male.

    I’ve made a good living for myself out of “fixing things,” and “problem solving” so if you don’t want my advice (her’s some advice for you & other women) don’t tell me your problems. Learn how to “suck it up” (keep your problems to yourself), and solve them yourself.

    Yes, not only are males hard wired to be problem solvers and fix things, they even compete with each other to be the best at it. Take a look at the modern technical world around you. It was built by hard driving, solution oriented males – not feminists.

    By the way, what effective problem solving has feminism ever accomplished in the grand scheme of things? Crickets.

    Oh, and welcome to AVfM.

    • tallwheel

      I think humans, regardless of gender, ought to offer help to others, as long as that’s what they truly want to do, and it would not create too large a burden for themselves. Whether or not to accept the assistance is up to the one it is being offered to. And if the assistance is appreciated, an attempt to repay the favor in some way ought to be made if such opportunity arises in the future.

      Unilateral white knighting toward a woman who simply expects to be helped, however, is how you keep that woman in childhood.

      • Ballast

        I agree completly tallwheel. I grew up in a collective culture. We helped each other out. it wasn’t men helping women or women helping men, it was people helping eachother and contributing to the community. I wonder how many of the responses here are from city dwellers. it seems to be a whole different culture.

        Yes, I have actually scooped someone from the footpath that had collapsed blind drunk and heped them, if i have a bit of extra dosh I try to help those around me and if I’m first through a door I always hold it open. I don’t care if these people are male or female, just that they are part of my community.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      I don’t think she meant for you to keep your wisdom, help or advice to yourself.

      I’m pretty sure she meant “don’t eat her vegetables for her”.

      I think the vast majority of women have NOOOOOO clue how much they rely on men, or how men are carrying the heavy load, because men themselves NEVER point it out to them.

      It isn’t being mean or “a jerk” to allow them that realization.

      For example, I used to think I was a hot shot racquet ball player. My husband had been asked to go pro, and here I was KEEPING UP WITH HIM!!!!

      One day a woman at the gym asked me to play. She too thought I was REALLY good after watching us play.

      What a disaster. I couldn’t hit the ball back to her even once. We gave up after 10 minutes.

      That’s when I realized my husband was pulling almost 100% of the effort – years of honing his game, he could place the ball where any idiot standing there with a racquet could hit it…and it was a very disquieting realization to know this wasn’t the only example of him making us both look good…

      Whenever I hear other women claiming “equal pay for equal work” I start seeing racquet balls whizzing over my head.

      • Paul Elam

        I would take it a step further. My long time assumption has been that the impulse in men to fix things for women is the real root of what feminists ended up calling patriarchy.

        Patriarchy, in my opinion, was always driven by male hyperagency and female infantilization. And this would explain why we see those things so often translated into law and social custom. e.g. patriarchy

        Where I disagree some with the author is that she seems to draw the conclusion that the enabling from men was something that was done “to” her.

        I understand there is a lot of social conditioning and biological factors in both sexes that pressure compliance with that paradigm, but as with all other solutions, the first place to look is the mirror. In a just society, the onus is first on women to carry their own weight and solve their own problems.

        But men can help with that a great deal, by simply following Nurdy Dancer’s advice.

        • Kimski

          “My long time assumption has been that the impulse in men to fix things for women is the real root of what feminists ended up calling patriarchy.”

          Very much agreed.
          Women don’t want us to fix things, and certainly not point out how easily it is done.

          As Nurdy points out herself, they mostly just want someone to listen to them, while they figure it out for themselves.

          Men, on the other hand, do a lot of thinking, and don’t need anyone to interfere or be a part of the problemsolving, before they get up and get the job done.

          It’s two completely different ways to attack and solve a problem that collides here.

          I can very well imagine how irritating or demeaning it must be for ‘a talker/do’er’, to have a huge personal problem solved more or less immediately by ‘a thinker/do’er’.

          I know for a fact how much it irritates me to the point of screaming, to discuss a problem at great lengths, before actually doing something about it.

      • Ballast

        Wait, you’re saying women can’t work equally hard or as well as men? Ok, I’m proibbaly going to get a whle bunch of hate for this one, but I think they can.

    • Nurdy Dancing

      LOL well having another brain’s input on my problems was never an issue for me and I tend to appreciate that and find it encouraging. Suggestions on what I could do on my own to fix a mistake are welcome, how ever the men in my life cant seem to resist the urge to DO the fixing for me by providing me the funding or necessary labor, that is the problem.
      Before I realized how harmful this was to me I always appreciated the help and thought to myself ‘boy, what a great guy’ but then i came to expect the ‘help’ (otherwise known as coddling) and that was a destroying influence to my adulthood.

    • Suz

      If you ask a man for a solution, you will get solution. If you want encouragement or hints, that’s what you should ask for.

      • The Real Peterman

        Bingo! We have a winner.

      • Kimski

        -Now, do you want what’s behind door number one or door number two, or do you want to proceed and have a chance at winning a 500 pound turkey?

    • Rick Westlake

      By the way, what effective problem solving has feminism ever accomplished in the grand scheme of things? Crickets.

      Oh, I don’t know about that, Ray. It has effectively solved the problem that women faced about having less than enough to gripe about. 😉

  • Tawil

    Welcome Nurdy.

    “The motto is ‘feminism is the radical notion that women are people’, but you and I know that children are people, too. I’m sure what they meant to say is that women are adults.”

    That comment is smart and original, deserves to be immortalised. I love it when people take clichés and actually think about them. It rarely happens.

    Your conclusion deserves to be immortalised too.

  • OneHundredPercentCotton

    “Pertectin’ the wimmin folk” is a time honored tradition practiced by honorable men from earliest history.

    It’s now a prescription for disaster for the future.

    Going into the military right out of high school was the best thing that ever happened to me as a woman. In THAT particular time, it truly was sink or swim – you had no choice but to get your shit together.

    I always used to declare “the world would be a better place if more women experienced military disipline” (I KNEW “The World Would Be A Better Place If Women Ran It” was a delusional lie.)

    Now days, however, even that time honored rite of passage into adulthood has been modified to coddle and infantalize the perpetually victimized.

    This is truly insightful advice. The old saying about teaching a man to fish is feeding him for life applies the same principle.

    ” Allow a woman to figure out her own adult responsibilities, and you’ve got her off your back for life…”

    Well, maybe that could use a little more polishing, but you get my meaning…

    • Arvy

      ”Allow a woman to figure out her own adult responsibilities, and you’ve got her off your back for life…”

      Heh heh. Somehow I don’t think I’ll be using that one within hearing of any of my female friends and acquaintances anytime soon. It’s really great, but the “polish” may be required on an urgent basis. :)

    • tallwheel

      Ah, if only the military had stayed that way. The first female entrants in boys clubs often have to learn to play by that organization’s existing rules, and they expect nothing less. Get enough women in the club and the rules are gradually changed by the entitled women and the white knights in attempts to make the women feel more comfortable. Remaining in one’s comfort zone is exactly what stops people from making positive changes to themselves, and growing as individuals.

  • Paul Elam

    Welcome, Nurdy! And congrats on plucking the scales from your eyes. :)

  • quolls

    May like to see what this guy has just gone through …

    • tallwheel

      Admirable message, but he could really use some help with web design if he wants to be taken seriously. I really don’t mind that much, personally, but while reading the site I am constantly imagining it being shown on the Aussie news as evidence of how crazy he is. Visually, it unfortunately gives that impression.

      • quolls

        Hard to find good help … is why so many of us are in this same mess … I was just in the same corrupt couert same corrupt judges, against the same corrupt lawyers and psycho report writers.

        If we were rocket scientists we could affort the $150,000.00 ransome to get a fair trial and our kids would get to see us.

        So if anyone can help the guy out feel free, thanks.

  • Tawil

    In 1971 Esther Vilar wrote an amazing book entitled ‘The Manipulated Man’ that described feminism as a project exploiting men’s capacity for protecting vulnerable children. The theme of her book is that women (and particularly femininsts) act like children in order to receive the attention, protection, and indulgence of men playing the protective adult role.

    All this amounts to a kind of ‘Games people play,’ in this case the game of adult by males, and child by females.

    [Vilar quote]: “Woman’s greatest ideal is a life without work or responsibility – yet who leads such a life but a child? A child with appealing eyes, a funny little body with dimples and sweet layers of baby fat and clear, taut skin – that darling minature of an adult. It is a child that woman imitates – its easy laugh, its helplessness, its need for protection. A child must be cared for; it cannot look after itself. And what species does not, by natural instinct, look after its offspring? It must – or the species will die out. With the aid of skillfully applied cosmetics, designed to preserve that precious baby look; with the aid of helpless exclamations such as ‘Ooh’ and ‘Ah’ to denote astonishment, surprise, and admiration; with inane little bursts of conversation, women have preserved this ‘baby look’ for as long as possible so as to make the world continue to believe in the darling, sweet little girl she once was, and she relies on the protective instinct in man to make him take care of her.”

    • Perseus

      Awesome excerpt, Tawil. This has been on my mind a lot lately. I’ve been explicitly observing the behavior in a lot of females, along with the response generated in males, including myself. It is fucking ridiculous how strong the effect is. Outrageous. In full awareness of the intent and calculation behind the tactic, I actually come to the point of frustrated anger that I still feel powerfully drawn to the allure on a visceral, impulsive level. I consider it tragic. The power of the manipulative hooks that females wield over males, emotional and sexual, is of the most disgusting characteristics of humanity. Transcend the feminine, for it is man’s primary imperfection.

      • Tawil

        You are not alone Perseus. Females are taught these sexual and emotional enticements from infancy – how to bat eyelids, how to tilt the head and look all cutesy, evocative tones in the voice, phrases, body language, the language of fashion/clothing, emotional manipulation…. it sure as hell works.

        If boys were taught same from childhood they could play the same hypnotic game in reverse and it would work. (hypothetical only)

        But agreed is powerful stuff, still gets me in. I got an invitation today to go to a resort for a weekend all paid expenses but I dont want to go with this woman. She’s nice and all but i work with her and i don’t date work buddies because the gossip gets out of hand. But she tried all the body language and tricks and it had a strong effect, am still trying to get it out of my head without much success. But at least I said no which is a win for MGHOW.

        We need to teach boys how the feminine tricks work – the hand gestures, the smiles, frowns, games. They need to be able to read this stuff like they were reading the moving parts of a motor vehicle. Then they might not be so spellbound buy it, might be less enslaved by the art. Being aware of how something works takes some of the mystique and heat out of the equation… so there’s something to be said for observing, learning, taking note of what they do.

        • Perseus

          “If boys were taught same from childhood..”

          This is our mission and our duty

        • Perseus

          One of the most powerful antidotes- WWAD (what would andybob do)?

          • Tawil

            LOL… “WWAD”, I’ll pay that one, he’s a man with answers! 😉

        • Perseus

          Oh man, I’m so glad you mentioned tone of voice. …………………….. so pestilently childish.. and ’empowered’.

          The makeup, eyeliner, posture, body language, long clumsy hair, clothes, it’s all a disgusting combination of childish and hypersexualizing. A merciless onslaught on male instinct.

        • Sting Chameleon

          As a man who has gotten to that point, I can tell you that some women still manage to catch me off-guard at times. Only the better-looking ones, but still.

        • Dean Esmay

          I’m quite convinced that at least 70% of this, maybe more, is cultural. You just do not SEE this in other cultures I’ve encountered, or very little of it. Including some subcultures and areas in the US. It’s learnt, adopted behavior, mostly. Yes, it’s based on some primitive instincts and thus pretty easy to pick up, especially in childhood, but I’m convinced that what’s learned can be unlearned, and such bad habits can be broken, or overcome by those who recognize them for what they are.

          • Sting Chameleon

            Indeed. Sometimes you revert to bad old habits, as it has happened to me, but if you keep pressing on you can unlearn that shit.

        • typhonblue

          “If boys were taught same from childhood they could play the same hypnotic game in reverse and it would work.”

          This is why I always find the notion of ‘surrendered wives’ amusing.

          Surrendering to what exactly? Having every microscopic speck of emotional potency and dominance in a relationship?

          • Sting Chameleon

            Which is why we must teach boys that learned helplessness is poison, and that the “maidens in distress” are predators in disguise.

      • Sting Chameleon

        When called out on that some even have the gall to say “well it isn’t our fault you’re a bunch of horndogs”

  • cuatezon

    I have been very guilty of white knighting and I’ve stopped ‘saving’ people – men and women – from their own foolish follies and selfish errors. Sometimes people do need to take their lumps and learn their lessons.

    However, I agree with tallwheel. Society is better of when people help each other. I think our society is so afraid now of being codependent or enabling someone. We have brains we can think and contemplate the situation. Someone in dire need of help – man helping man, man helping woman, woman helping man, woman helping woman – I would hope it would happen.

    ‘Dire need’ meaning a true emergency, and in the example of a drunk gal laying on the curb – call the police or get females to help her out. She’s prime target for being taken advantage of. If I saw a guy laying passed out on the curb, I’d call someone for help – the police or someone. Its just common decency to help in a true emergency-like situation. I don’t want to live in a society where nobody ever lifts a finger to help another, ever.

  • Rper1959

    Thanks Nerdy , interesting but have to call a couple of points,

    -Insist a partner is financially responsible? great idea but that is defined as “financial abuse” if the relationship goes pear shaped and she wants to be nasty

    – As an employer of more than 20 staff mostly women, and in view of sexual harassment and unfair dismissal legislation one must be very careful how they performance counsel an employee .. not as easy to be clear as you suggest

    Neither of these issues were a concern to men treating women equally before feminist doctrine, policy and legislation became ubiquitous, I think you still have a sizable chunk of patriarchy theory to rid yourself off before you understand the feminist reality we all face, feminism harms women too you know.

    • Tawil

      Interesting article defining “financial abuse”:

      “Financial abuse occurs in 98 percent of abusive relationships, whether in the form of restricting access to a spouse’s credit, or draining assets once a victim attempts to leave. For spouses who see their options gradually dwindle, money may be the reason to stay in a relationship or come back after trying to get out. Of the seven in eight women who go back to an abusive partner after leaving, a significant portion attributes the return to financial pressures. An abuser can control the victim’s financial freedom in a number of ways, both before and after she attempts to leave. We thank Rene Renick, Vice President of Economic Enterprises at the National Network to End Domestic Violence for her advice on financially protecting yourself from an abusive relationship. Note: throughout the article, we use a female pronoun for the victim and male for the batterer for simplicity, although of course men are also victims of domestic abuse.”

    • Tawil

      Interesting article defining “financial abuse”:

      “Financial abuse occurs in 98 percent of abusive relationships, whether in the form of restricting access to a spouse’s credit, or draining assets once a victim attempts to leave. For spouses who see their options gradually dwindle, money may be the reason to stay in a relationship or come back after trying to get out. Of the seven in eight women who go back to an abusive partner after leaving, a significant portion attributes the return to financial pressures. An abuser can control the victim’s financial freedom in a number of ways, both before and after she attempts to leave. We thank Rene Renick, Vice President of Economic Enterprises at the National Network to End Domestic Violence for her advice on financially protecting yourself from an abusive relationship. Note: throughout the article, we use a female pronoun for the victim and male for the batterer for simplicity, although of course men are also victims of domestic abuse.”

      • Shrek6

        “Note: throughout the article, we use a female pronoun for the victim and male for the batterer for simplicity, although of course men are also victims of domestic abuse.”

        Yeah right woman. Get your hand off it, or you might go blind!

        • Tawil

          By “for simplicity” I guess they mean “for maximum hate effect”.

          • Shrek6

            I just realised it was a man who wrote the article.
            Typical WKt bean counter!

      • Shrek6

        The one thing I find as such hypocrisy, is that the financial abuse this toad is describing, only happens to but a few women.

        Yet, once there is a divorce, the husband/father is financially abused much worse than any woman, and this abuse lasts for decades. In many cases the man ends up on the streets with no home to go to and has the shit beaten out of him at least once a week.

        Yet, I don’t hear anything about this form of financial abuse mentioned anywhere.

  • jack

    The rule in human Societies is “I scracth your back, you scratch mine”. Which translates into “don’t do anything for anyone else unless they be prepared to reciprocate”. With women the reciprocation would more often than not be sexual. I pay your phone bill but you take care of that bulge in my trousers. But since “sexual services” are illegal and any kind of sex is potential rape, men doing things for women are expected to do it for free.

  • Skeptic

    Nurdy Dancing says – “DO NOT man up.
    Instead man down and step back, for equality”.

    Good advice for blue pill men.

    Better yet, I reckon is to man out.
    Men are the cohort in far worse shape than women. Recognizing that, as a general rule, unless it’s a real dire emergency I have NO interest in helping any woman, period. I see there is far too much male woundedness for me to deal with to be bothered with pandering to women.
    Call it a sexual triage system.

    • Tawil

      ‘Man out’, love it !!

    • Perseus

      I wish the military would adopt the same policy. Prioritizing females for rescue missions is atrocious.

      • The Real Peterman

        But if we suddenly need to repopulate the Earth, women will help more than men!

        • typhonblue

          The Earth has a dire shortage of humans, dotchaknow?

  • lensman

    Excellent article Nurdy, welcome aboard.

    I would like to stress out a point in your first paragraph that I believe needs further attention:

    “(…)This was a change substantially more difficult than abandoning my belief in God and religion.”

    It is my contention that it is actually much easier to abandon religion and become an Atheist than it is to abandon feminism and become an MRA. Why you ask?

    Quite simply we are currently living in a period of scientific advancement and religious apathy. Eating meat on a Friday is no longer punishable by Hellfire, and there isn’t a religious inquisition which will burn your ass at the stake for not believing in Jesus, and having doubt in your mind. Stopping believing in God today is not much more special than stopping believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny -which is why I consider things like TAM and other Atheist Conferences to be stupid and ultimately pointless.

    Furthermore being an Atheist has become a bit “trendy” as of late. Atheism is what “smart people do” these days, which is why you see plenty of Radical Feminists eager to jump on the Atheism/Secularism bandwagon. Being an Atheist doesn’t seem to have any negative consequences (except maybe in places like the Bible Belt where religion is strong and coming out as an Atheist can mean isolation from your family), and is even encouraged in some places.

    The gynocentric paradigm -I consider patriachy/chivalry and feminism to just be two different versions of gynocentrism- on the other hand is literally everywhere. It’s in families, even normal ones, where boys are are being conditioned to put women first. It’s in education, where boys are considered a nuisance, while girls “made of sugar and spice and everything nice.”. It’s in television, where men are portrayed as stupid, abusive, and/or irresponsible. It’s in advertising, where we see men demonized and/or ridiculed in order to sell a product or get you to send money to charity. Our modern western civilisation is literaly embedded in it.

    As I said in my rant at the Dr F Show, there are some very real and brutal consequences for not agreeing with the gynocentric paradigm. You can literally publish books advocating intelligent design or racism and you will still be cashing a paycheck from that cushy university position. But as soon as you say something that is antithetical to gynocentrism you are out! The Spanish inquisition no longer cares about your core beliefs. It just reads what you are saying or typing on twitter or facebook. It no longer burns you at the stake. It instead takes away your livelihood and forces you to live a life of poverty, isolation and despair.

    This is why I have tremendous respect for people like Dr. Greg Canning, Nurdy Dancing and Quiet Riot Girl who manage to break free from the feminist stranglehold and the gynocentrism paradigm. What they did ultimately required, much more balls and more guts than simply abandoning religion. It required some serious introspection, some serious thinking and some serious questioning of the Status Quo (something which “Free Thought” Atheists/Secularists haven’t been able to do lately). And, most importantly, it required facing some very serious shunning and shaming from the vast majority of present society.

    To discovered the truth on your own and stand up for it when the rest of the world is opposed to it… that is the very essence of wisdom and courage.

  • Dr. F

    welcome Nurdy.

    It’s interesting in that an MRA never jumps ship to the feminist camp and writes the ‘inverted’ version of your write here. It just does not happen.

    Oh sure, on a feminist blog I read recently of an MRA that ‘saw the feminist light. It smacked of such ridiculous assertions that it reeked of an inside job you better believe it. A real shoddy shocker.

    We get people as yourself more and more. It’s as a valve. It goes one way and never the other. People are seeing as you have seen and can never unsee.

    I was a feminist also. I am toothpaste as you are, and stuffing us back in the tube ? Oh yeah, like that’s going to happen in a pink fit ?

    Again, welcome and you have landed and we love it.

  • dhanu

    Good advice, Nurdy, and beneficial to all (except the married men as in that case they’re legally on the hook). In case of an employer, just follow the policies and keep getting your wages without caring about what happens to the company or organization due to the lack of responsibility of an employee. In case of the owner of the business, I think the owners do have the resources and influence, and should try to get the unfair policies changed if they hurt the business.

    In other words, there’s a solution for everyone except a married man. MGTOW is the good way to go for everyone.

  • Perseus

    Welcome Nurdy, congratulations on your metamorphosis from reptile alien. And thanks for recounting your story.

    I offer a minor critique. The one who exploits charity is the asshole, not the charity provider. Let’s keep things squeaky clean here. Yes, females shamelessly exploit instinctive male charity. That makes them assholes, not a new class of victims, ‘benevolent sexism’. Functionally, yes, we can address the role men play in facilitating horrendous behavior. But the primary scorn must be directed at the acute doers of the evil, the exploiters. This is common sense and the natural order.

    That said, ne’er will I be seen to lift a cunt hair for miss priss affirmative action, you can bet her sweet ass on that. Female with a flat, fly right by.. male, I’ll go out of my way to get him running again. A creature who, on the whole, laughs at male genital mutilation and torture deserves far less than charity..

  • Kimski

    Welcome Nurdy, and let me just make this short for once:

    You got yourself a deal.

    /Starts counting the seconds before the first woman walks up, and starts shaming me for being an insensible jackass..

  • Dannyboy

    Welcome to club of true equality.
    Really enjoyed your piece and look forward to more common sense and rational thinking pieces by you.

  • Zerbu

    It’s great to see more people starting to realize the fraud of what feminism is. Also, great advice on how to help women get true equality.

  • VictorGarcia

    Good to see you on here! i anticipate reading more from you.

  • Dr. Tara J. Palmatier

    Love this.

    People learn best from their failures and mistakes by receiving consequences. Our society does its damnedest to shield women from the natural consequences of their choices and behaviors.

    Feminism, with the strong arm of the state, is essentially trying to “playground proof” the world for women. By “playground proof” I mean protect women from the consequences of their choices just like today’s playgrounds have padded cement, so if a child falls they won’t get hurt. The chains of swings are encased in plastic so a child’s fingers don’t get pinched. Playground equipment no longer has hard edges.

    Of course, no one wants to see a child get hurt. My point is, if we protect children from everything, we rob them of the ability to learn from mistakes and their own stupidity.

    The state and feminists are playground proofing life across the board for women.

    Not smart enough to get into a science program? No problem. Universities will restrict the number of qualified males and gives scholarships to women who are less intellectually capable.

    Want to roll the dice and try to trap a guy by oopsing him? Don’t worry, baby. The state will make sure the father supports the adult baby and actual baby.

    Want to drink yourself into oblivion and lower your inhibitions? No need to feel shame the morning after. The state will let you call it rape.

    And the playground proofing for women just goes on and on and on.

    Woman out.

    • Rick Westlake

      “Playground proofing for women!” Dr. Tara, that is a sublime statement of the way that feminism and its white-knight ‘useful idiots’ are running the world.

      I can understand a man wanting to keep his daughter safe from harm, or his wife – even at the expense of facing perils to protect them, even possibly at the expense of his own life. But today’s nanny state works to keep all women safe from the consequences of their own actions and choices, at the expense of making every man a tool and a fool in the State’s hands.

    • Tawil

      “Feminism, with the strong arm of the state, is essentially trying to “playground proof” the world for women.”

      Wow, that metaphor captures the situation perfectly, or should I say ‘To a T’.

    • Booyah

      love the “woman out” at the end

  • Dean Esmay

    I am very interested in how culture plays into these things, although that’s always a delicate thing to do with Americans because culture and “race” (which is a pseudoscientific concept to begin with) often gets mixed up with it, and Americans are still have a ton of very high strung feelings about race issues. I say that ‘lest I be misunderstood: what I am about to talk about here is about culture, not “race,” and what I’m wanting to talk about is black culture within the United States. Which actually *is* a culture, not a “race.” It’s an ethnicity, an identity, a culture (or “subculture” if you prefer) with its own values, ways of speaking, modes of dress, music, and so on that is part of the very large American mosaic. And so when I say “black” here, all readers should be aware I am not talking about race or genetic background, or anyone from Australia or the UK or even Africa whom you perceive to be “black.” My use of “black” is in the very precise example of American culture and nowhere else.

    One of the things I’ve noticed is that radical feminism, hell, even “moderate” feminism, never penetrated American black culture very far at all. Many theories have been advanced as to why this is, but I believe the primary reason is because if you’ve spent much time actually living and working surrounded by black culture (which I have, having been the white boy minority where I was either living or working at various points in my life) is, American black culture has always celebrated the “strong black woman” archetype. So far as I can see, it has always done so, not just in my lifetime but well before I was born. Even within so-called black male “thug culture” which may denigrate women as “bitches and hos,” that’s never to my eye been much more than macho strutting: most black women won’t have shit to do with that. Whether they’re churchgoing women (and black churches are practically ruled by their womenfolk, even if the preachers are mostly male) or just everyday parts of the community, the whole idea that women are weak innocent victims just does not seem to resonate anywhere in black culture that I’ve seen.

    And calling out women for their shit is also pretty damned common. While there’s a good deal of respect in some quarters for more traditional roles (especially among the churchgoing folks–and the Black Church is *huge* in this culture), even where cohabiting and single motherhood is the norm, the vision of “momma” as a figure of great strength and power and respect is very common. In fact it is the norm, in my experience.

    “Weak, helpless woman” is almost completely alien to black women, from what I’ve seen, and to whatever extent a woman is seen that way, most American blacks (women and men alike) often have contempt for it.

    None of this is to say there is nothing dysfunctional in black culture, no problems that need addressing. There is no culture about which that cannot be said. I’m not interested in that. I’m pointing to something here that I think is very positive: the image of “strong woman” is extremely common in the black community, from what I’ve seen.

    And I think it is ultimately proof that if you believe being female automatically makes you inclined to hypoagency, we should be able to look at black culture in America as a very good place to point to when calling “bullshit!” Being strong and taking personal responsibility is pretty damned normal for black women. And I don’t think that’s got shit to do with some mysterious “strong black woman” genes or some bullshit like that. I’m saying it’s because in this (and some other areas) black culture has some things worth emulating.

    “Bitch, please!” with an eyeroll: I know more than one white girl who should absorb some of that shit. Black women by and large do not make a habit of teaching their girls to grow up expecting some man to do all their shit for them.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      I’m going to stick my neck out here and say anyone having kids with unwilling men, collecting reluctant child support or welfare is NOT my idea of a “strong women taking personal responsibility”.

      Anyone raising a thug for a son is not a “success” story.

      • Shrek6


        I agree with you, but will go many steps forward. In my opinion, women who do behave like this are nothing but parasites.

        • OneHundredPercentCotton

          I was trying to be delicately tactful, Shrek6.

          I’ve lived with “strong black women” in the military and never found them to have any superior strength or self -responsibility traits.

          Quite the opposite, in fact.

          I’ve worked with black women who were AA quota placements and never found their work ethic to be particularly commendable. “They can’t fire me ’cause I’m black and Imma women”.

          I just don’t see where I can agree with the contention that black women aren’t weak or as silly as anyone else. Afraid of dogs, afraid of swimming, afraid of lightening – I’ve seen some pretty over the top fearfulness, personally.

          The main difference I observed is black women don’t expect much from their men. Maybe that’s what’s interpreted as being “strong”.

          • Shrek6

            Sorry OHPC, I was referring to your comment about women tricking unwilling men into having children.
            It is my opinion that they are parasites!

            On the other topic you mentioned, I don’t live where you live, so I don’t need to be so delicate.

            From what I have seen in literature, in documentaries and current affairs type programs (even though these are media), I cannot see how black women are any different to any other over privileged woman on this planet.

            I think there is a slight shift in the way black men live in these communities as apposed to the white men. So, the women behaving as you say, by not expecting too much from their men, might be a sign that the men are resisting to be the slaves of the women, as the white men have done for eons.

            I have also heard of many horror stories, where fathers (black Americans) have suffered horrendously at the hands of their black ex wives. So, if this is true, which I believe it is, then they enjoy the same protection as white women and they perpetrate the same abuses as white women do.

      • Dean Esmay

        Here’s the deal on that: first off the majority of people living on welfare in the United States are white, not black. That said, yes, there is a large subset of black American culture which is welfare dependent, and that subset looks pretty much identical in its cultural dysfunction to what you find in lower-class welfare-dependent communities in Australia, the UK, and elsewhere where the people are lilly-white but have all the same problems with single motherhood and crime and gangs and lifelong dependency and poor education and all that. That is not a race issue, that is a class issue. We just forget about the realities of class here in the US, we like to believe we’re a “classless” society but we are not.

        Lifelong welfare dependency is a trap that harms all those caught in it. The social disintegration it causes is the same regardless of race, creed, color, nationality, etc.

        This is all something very foreign to a lot of middle class white people, but the stereotype of the “welfare dependent single black mother,” while it has some truth (like all stereotypes, it comes from somewhere) is really no different from the welfare-dependent single white mother. Their accents may be different, the way they dress or where they live may be a little different, but the psychology is the same; I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

        Black American culture is not defined by this subset of its culture, any more than mainstream white culture is defined by what is derisively sometimes called “white trash.” (Which is an offensive term in my view, but, at least people know what it is when you say it.)

        There are millions of middle class blacks with perfectly functional middle class families, and within that part of the culture, the image of the “strong black woman” I spoke of is pretty normal, which is part of why, I think, you find as few American black faces at your average Feminist institution as you do at your average Republican convention.

  • kiwihelen

    Hey ND,

    I guess I was lucky in my upbringing because I was raised to believe I was capable and competent…and that in spite of having some interesting physical challenges. If we “failed” at something as kids, one or both of the parents would give us a chance to work out a better way to do it.

    Men in my life learn quickly…if they tell me how to do something and I feel I am doing OK, I put my head on one side, fix them with a grade 2 medusa stare (not the one that turns them to rock, more the one that stops them in their tracks) and say sweetly “OK, if I really am doing such a bad job, I am more than happy for you to do it.”
    Significant men in my life cope just fine with this, and if it IS important to them, they will show me their different approach, and if it is better, I will change what I am doing.
    My current housemate radically altered how I stack the dishwasher, and I fully admit his is the better method.
    Just recently he was away for a weekend and I did a bit of DIY plumbing of a water butt to the downpipe and he came in after looking at it and said I could use his tool kit anytime if that was the quality of my work…now that was a big complement!

    • Kimski


      I’m one of those guys that really enjoys cooking, and coming up with new delicious stuff in the kitchen.
      A couple of years back I was involved with a women, and we would usually fix the meals together in the kitchen, and sharing a good glass of red or white wine while doing so.
      One day I noticed that she had a highly inefficient way of peeling the potatoes, and I kindly turned to her, and showed her a much faster and efficient way, where she could get the twice the amount done in half the time.
      The way she did it was so radically different from anything I had ever seen before, that I felt intrigued to ask her where she had picked up that method, and it turned out to be her mother that had taught her to do it.
      On a much later occasion I had the chance to ask the mother where she had learned it, and she again told me that she had been taught to do it that way by her mother.
      I was somewhat amazed to find out that you had 3 generations of women here, that persistently had continued to do the same inefficient thing for almost a century in total, without questioning or trying to come up with a quicker way to do it, and that it took a man’s input in a kitchen before they ALL did it the way I had shown the youngest one.

      • kiwihelen

        @Kimski, you are welcome to come cook with me any time. I love cooking with other people.
        Growing up my Mum always used to joke ‘I’m teaching you the way that your grandmother taught me, so you know how she likes things done’
        In my early 20s I became involved in caregiving for my grandparents and was so grateful to Mum for giving me the freedom to learn and improve on techniques, because it became very clear how rigid her mother was.
        I do wonder if the pack mentality I have seen in many women stifles innovation…I’ve had to develop a really tough hide to deal with the kind of snipes I get in my mostly female dominated profession, when I come up with a new way to do something

        • Kimski


          Invitation acceptet, should I ever get around to visiting your part of the world.

          I have a recipe for undercut of sirloin steak, with a cream/mushroom-sauce, that is going to rock your world.

          • Ballast

            Hark, a date? 😛

  • The Real Peterman

    I understand that if other people always solve your problems, you have a limited opportunity to grow and improve as a person. BUT I seriously doubt that men helping women with their problems is the biggest barrier to their self-empowerment, especially when compared to men who actively hurt women.

  • Frimmel

    When I don’t want help with a problem I don’t ask for it.

    While I agree that less white knighting is to men’s benefit the opposite side of that coin will to many men be denying what they consider a very male part of themselves. Aren’t we here once again being asked to be more like women? Is this article not just another call to put the problems of women, in this case not enough gumption, on men’s shoulders?

    • Arvy

      Yes, of course it is. But that’s the whole point in a way. Men cannot possibly satisfy all of the self-contradictory feminist demands no matter what they do. So they might as well work toward the ones that are (potentially) most beneficial to themselves.

      Whether men actually can overcome their own long-instilled (perhaps even instinctive ) protective tendencies that women often encourage to their own advantage is, however, a very large question as you say. And whether that entails themselves becoming more like the feminists is another one.

      I suppose it can be looked upon in at least two ways: damned if you do and damned if you don’t; or, if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em (at least insofar as using the rules of the game to your own advantage is concerned). Think of it as a kind of jiu-jitsu contest.

  • MisterJ

    I Just got back from a 3 month trip to China aside from being dazzled by beautiful sights, mountains, lakes, rivers and buildings

    I noticed something VERY different with a good portion of their women (not all, but a significant amount to make note of it)

    They seemed to NOT have this damsel in distress kind of attitude, they take care of themselves, organized , pay for their own way and live life like there is nobody to depend on.

    And from my observations , I believe it partly stems from the fact that the men there don’t “white knight” as much compared to here

    Most men I met, focus on themselves, and if someone needs help, they don’t feel compelled to run in and save the day

    I had discussions about this with quite a few men there and they are like:

    “why would help her, it will only cost me money or time or potentially get me in some kind of trouble, besides , its her fault, she should learn to better manage herself”

    • Rick Westlake

      @ MisterJ: There is even more to that, or at least there was in the past, if my recollection of one of my mother’s stories could be taken as evidence.

      In old China – pre-communist China (Mom spent a year in Nanjing in 1946) – if you helped someone in need, you were obliged to continue helping them. If you helped a sick or injured person, then you were obliged to continue caring for them. She told me of seeing people step around a dying beggar – and that was the explanation she was told by her Chinese-language instructor.

      • MisterJ

        @Rick Westlake

        Agreed, this is why I said: “it *partly* stems from the fact that the men there don’t “white knight” as much compared to here”

        I did notice so many cultural standards and norms… I didnt bring all the other variables up, otherwise my post would be so long :)

  • Atlas Reloaded

    Yeah ok article Nurdy…now don’t TELL me what to do.


    • Atlas Reloaded

      I will ALWAYS respond in this manner to a woman ( no less, a “former” feminist) who advises men on how to conduct themselves in the world; cold and unfriendly.

    • Nurdy Dancing

      folks take me waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously sometimes.

      • Atlas Reloaded

        I think you’re taking me pretty seriously right now.

        • Nurdy Dancing

          not really too seriously i was just looking through this comment thread and thinking… errr … I didn’t say that. I guess I shouldn’t have ignored advise to go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay the heck overboard and blame men for absolutely everything.

          • Atlas Reloaded

            Uh, funny thing. I did not that I recall make any references to you ‘blaming men for everything’. Do you….feel that you did that sweetheart?

      • Atlas Reloaded

        Watch some men here are gonna come to your rescue. lol

        • Nurdy Dancing

          well in the original there was more implied resistance from females (which, I notice, there is in reality) and that men as a whole would have to drag the female gender kicking and screaming into adult responsibility, benefit and consequence. I have a screwy sense of humor…
          but when I look around me I honestly can’t even begin to think of a way fix the issues I have with most of my gender. For a very long time before I gave up on feminism altogether I thought the goals of feminism should turn to work on women themselves instead of focusing so much on men. I thought there should be campaigns giving the message of ‘Hey ladies you can do this shit for yourselves! you don’t need a man to continue to maintain your up keep’ or ‘ Yo! work ethics are cool.’ but nooooooooo! they spend a ridiculous amount of money looking for ways to be offended by stupid everyday things.
          I’m doing that thing aren’t I… that rambly disconnected feminism tricked me thing.. you know.. THAT thing. Ima go dance my frustration away now….

      • typhonblue

        You’re being defensive. I understand why but my suggestion is that you just say your peace and exit stage right.

        • Atlas Reloaded

          Shut up.

  • AntZ

    Welcome to the fight.

    I recommend a non-academic hobby as a way to protect your son’s identity from the onslaught that will soon begin. My 8 year old plays the piano to keep his chin up.

    Good luck.

  • napocapo69

    Good article, thanks Nurdy. Completely agree with overall message regarding the responsibility men share with women in letting misandry grow.
    Just a personal annotation; I do not help my sister because she’s a female, but because she’s part of my family. Sorry for the obviousness of my statement but beneath the surface there is an inner meaning; me and my sisters were born from what a feminist would define a patriarchal family and educated to love each other as part of a social group…guess which?…a gender?….a race?….not near….a nuclear family.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      Funny, that. My brother, the only living male left in the family and over whelmed with the travails of an elderly mother and four older sisters is well practiced in side stepping any “help” or drama involvement. Complaints, gossip or “problems” he refuses to “man up”.

      Mom’s new husband is apparently trying to gaslight her out of her home and savings? ” I warned her he had four ex wives for no good reason. She knew this going in. I don’t want to hear anymore about it”.

      Tough love. “There’s no place in this world for a 40 year old kid” as my father used to say…

      • Arvy

        Sorry to say it, but I think your father was wrong about that one. The world seems to accommodate a huge number of 40-year-old kids. And quite a few even older.

        This one has more than 70 years under his belt, BTW. :)

        • OneHundredPercentCotton

          My father was referring to my mother and her picadillos, with the strong implication that *I* was expected to do better.

          I’ve tried to live up to his expectations.

          Admitting your mistakes, righting your wrongs, making no excuses and laying no blame really and truly IS most “empowering”.

          • Arvy

            It certainly is, but that road to self-empowerment doesn’t seem to be quite as popular as one might hope.

            During my working career I got some very nasty looks from some of those “employee empowerment” gurus and their audiences when I asked what was preventing them from empowering themselves. I soon learned not to raise such awkward questions — at least not in their presence.

    • Shrek6

      And thanks to feminism and other far left wing radical groups, the nuclear family is disappearing at such a fast rate, we will soon be left with no such thing. The state will raise the children and human adult relationships will consist of any format.

      That will be a very sad day indeed.

      • Sting Chameleon

        The “nuclear family” as in “mom+dad+kids against the world” is a very new construct, extended families were the norm. If anything, I think that “nuclear families” were the first step on the weakening of communal ties, until reaching the final stage where’s every man/woman for herself,with no one to rely on except the State.

  • Ivo Vos

    I agree completely with you about your basic morality with regard to ‘white knighting’ (I wrote a song about the subject), but I’m sorry to say that I don’t buy your idea about what the core of patriarchy might be. Thinking in terms of patriarchy itself, as the core concept of feminism in their worldview, and redefining this concept in every possible way will still be defining the world in a, in my view, pointless fantasy about the world we live in. The more so if this redefinition points to an all too convenient single cause. It may be emotionally and morally soothing but it will foreseeable not work. The question is why this approach, this kind of rationality, might be so convincing,
    I’m afraid that proving your independency over and over to yourself while at the same time being dependent on others in more ways than we can possibly imagine, because that’s our human condition, in the end will lead to nowhere. Except the nagging idea that something is missing. In this case probably that your proving is dependent on the definition of others. Redefining this situation as the (real) patriarchy won’t change this basic situation and I’m afraid that making yourself to become an independent human the responsibility of other men and their behaviour, in this case what you describe as white knights, in the end will only serve as a redefined dependency in which you’re maybe able to temporarily get rid of questions about your own agency. But the basic situation has not been changed. In the end it’s not what others do or don’t do, irrespective of what kind of label you or others might attach to them, but what you do and think in the few moments of our lives where we actually can act out of our own, independent agency. Irrespective of others and whatever they may think or moralize about.

  • Joshua McKnight

    The only problem I have with this article is that it’s putting the onus on the man to essentially help a woman grow up. In other words we’re supposed to continue the parenting our SO didn’t receive when they were children.

    Perhaps I’m too ambitious and optimistic, assuming that the person I’m dating *is already an adult.* Just as I would gladly do anything for my adult guy friends if they ask, I will do the same for female friends and SO’s.

    However, if a friend of mine said “You know what, I’ve realized that I’ve been relying way too much on you, and it’s a bad habit I’m trying to shake. Can you just let me handle things on my own more often / from now on, even if I ask you to help?” I’d then know about the problem, and change my behavior. There is a chance I might come to this conclusion on my own after an extended period, but the benefit of the doubt will always be with my friends.

    • Shrek6

      I would never enter any agreement where they say, “even if I ask you”, because that is the typical double standards that women employ all the time.
      They can never commit 100% to anything, no matter how noble their initial attempts may be.

      If they ask, I might help. If they don’t ask, then let them do the task on their own. Don’t let them play their mind games on you.

      However, I am a man who hates to see money wasted, especially my own. And I hate to see someone do something stupid that could end up dangerous or wasteful.

      So, if my SO (which I don’t have at the moment) were to do something really stupid that could be wasteful or dangerous, I would immediately point it out to her.
      If she did the typical female baby act and let fly at me for not obeying her initial command, I would immediately show her the door.

      The days of tolerating the childish, over enabled and privileged, obnoxious behaviour of women, have long gone.

      Women must be dragged into the realm of adulthood, screaming and kicking if necessary. Just don’t ask me to help with the dragging, because I no longer have any interest in doing anything much for any woman outside of my own immediate family.

      I celebrate the fact that I can have this attitude, with few feelings of animosity toward women. I am truly going to demand that they meet me on the same mature level, or take a hike.

      So, although I agree with Nurdy’s post and thank her for making this very important observation, I also have to agree with others who do not agree that men should yet again have to modify their behaviour to try and get women to grow up and take responsibility, even though my own attitude is in essence a modification to do just that.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      I don’t take it to mean the onus is on you.

      Someone cleverly observed that feminists are often playing checkers in a game of chess.

      Most profound observation.

      Most men are too kind, taken aback, or disgusted by that realization, and just simply say nothing. Nothing at all.

      Women demanding Title IX for CEO positions are a good example.

      After years of coddling and competant males picking up the slack, voluntarily or under orders, it’s obvious women who make such suggestions are so self impressed with their checker playing ability, they are completely unaware there is a bigger picture with their own incompetance or entitlement attitudes being merely tolerated.

      • Joshua McKnight

        I’m not quite sure what you mean by the ‘checkers and chess’ analogy. If you mean feminists – and most women – are locked into a dualistic ‘women vs men’ view of the world, I would agree. I think you are trying to say more than that, though. Can you clarify a little?

        • Kimski

          Concentrating on winning the battles and not the war, is usually the point with that analogy.

        • Frimmel

          Checkers is a far simpler game than Chess. Someone playing Chess while others play Checkers is meant as the Chess player is operating on a different, higher level. Chess and Checkers are played on an equal field but they are not equal games.

  • TheMoralGodless

    Pretty good piece. But you realize you are basically saying, “men, stop having relationships with women.”

    Because there are an extremely sparse number of women who have interest in men beyond their utility as providers, “fixers” and life coaches.

    I am already MGTOW so it is easy for me to stop enabling, but any other man who still wants to deal with women is going to find themselves kicked to the curb in a jiffy when the women can’t get her “needs” met anymore.

    Women aren’t going to change. I hope you are all aware of that.

    • Atlas Reloaded


  • ActaNonVerba

    Not a fan of any “special” introductions or trumpet-blaring when a broad writes an article. Not my site. Just sayin’.

    • Nurdy Dancing

      uhmm… the intro … is done for everyone. just sayin’.

    • John the Other

      seriously dude, you’ve been reading this site long enough to know we welcome all new contributors.

  • MrStodern

    As a blue pill man, I felt quite inclined to rescue some women, and could easily be manipulated by them. I remember those feelings well.

    However, I never actually got the chance to be someone’s “Superman”, and, to this day, women NEVER personally attempt to get anything out of me through their cuteness/sexiness. Not because they can tell it won’t work (the women I run into in RL aren’t aware of my nature as a thoroughly red pill man), but because I don’t have anything they want.

    They have been willing to let me think that we’re friends when we’re not, though. Not quite the same thing, but perhaps related, since I’m sure they could tell my interests in them included a desire for sex, which I’m sure told them that they were hot, which in turn might have gotten them at least thinking about using that to their advantage.

    • Sting Chameleon

      For some women, having an orbiter who’ll give them an ear and a modicum of emotional support/validation is enough reward. You might not have money/a certain skillset they need, but if they’re willing to pretend they’re your friends, it’s because they will find a use for you sooner or later.

      • MrStodern

        They don’t want me for a “shoulder to cry on”. They’re just too cowardly to be upfront about the fact that I make them sick.

        • Sting Chameleon

          Ah, I see. I know the type, those are the kind of women who try to be on good terms with both God and the Devil, they can’t stand conflict and not being liked.

  • pinetree

    What about women who keep trying to fix men’s problems? It works both ways. In the end it is about treating each person as an individual. White knights are conditioned to be that way – but so are women conditoned to expect white knights. So both men and women are equally responsible to break their own conditioning. But with women their is a bigger problem at hand — since we are in the decline phase of the feminine cycle – and it is mostly about their very negative attitudes — about wanting privillege –rewards with little or no efforts. That women need motivation to grow up is not men’s problem — men have have to look after themselves first and formost — and let the crumbling economic break down give all the motivation to women and to white knights to align themselves with reality.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      What “problems” do women fix for men?

      The Feminist movement is based on male support. It couldn’t/wouldn’t exist without male intervention.

      The opposite cannot be said.

      Men have historically struck off on their own. Women? I don’t know of a single case of women going off on their own. They NEED men for protection, enforcement and to problem solve.

      Maybe that’s where all the contention comes from.

      Women need men, men don’t need women to survive.

      You don’t see women saving women. There are no female enforcements or protectors in place. Female cops have male back up at the ready, male cops don’t want or need female reinforcement.

      Bigger, stronger, braver women don’t take on the duty of protecting women of lesser strength. Males always have.

      Unless you are talking about “co dependancy” as “problem solving” women really don’t bring much to the table except for support roles.

      • Ray

        “Unless you are talking about “co dependancy” as “problem solving” women really don’t bring much to the table…”

        They have that novel procreation trick, but a lot of men are finding it not worth all the trouble.

        Maybe the world is just so overpopulated, that a larger human species force/drive has spawned gender feminism as way to depopulate the human species. It (gender feminism) certainly is one of the most sexually revulsive turn offs I’ve ever seen.

        • OneHundredPercentCotton

          Procreating isn’t exactly “problem solving”. More often than not it’s problem creation….

    • MrStodern

      “What about women who keep trying to fix men’s problems?”

      They’re so rare that you might as well hunt for Bigfoot instead, as your odds are better.

      • OneHundredPercentCotton

        My son’s girlfriend makes sure his bills are paid, that he saves some money instead of spending it all, and that he doesn’t drink too much.

        She likes to think she’s smarter than him, and he likes her to think that too.

        My husband used to do that to me as well, until I actually wised up and realized what he was doing.

        I SHOULD probably call my son on it, but that’s THEIR problem to solve, not mine.

        • Sting Chameleon

          Your son is setting himself up for some massive ownage. It’s a shame that no one can do anything about it but himself.

          • OneHundredPercentCotton

            He’s been warned. He knows better. I also warned her as well – “Someday he will be the man you want him to be…and you are just going to HATE it”.

        • MrStodern

          Does she actually pay the bills herself? Or just remind him to pay them on time? Is she concerned that he might lose his job from staying out all night drinking all the time? Or is she more worried about him drunkenly knocking some other girl up and owing her money?

          The key difference between most women who “help” their BF/husbands, and the men who “help” their GFs/wives, is that the women are often looking out for themselves, and the men usually aren’t.

    • Atlas Reloaded

      Who the fuck is thumb-downing this?

  • Ray

    In a college where I used to work, my old boss, the Facilities Administrator had to go to lots and lots of meetings where other administrators and teachers talked and talked about lots of things they perceived as problems. Largely, they were time wasters. On more than one occasion I’ve heard my old boss say to me, “Well, Mr. Fix-it, I’m off to more paralysis by analysis.”

    As part of my job, I used to get reports from people who loved to talk and talk about their problems – with mechanical items, then ask me to explain in detail what was wrong. My usual answer was, “I don’t know. It’s broke. It’s almost always easier to fix it, than to talk about it, and I couldn’t even give you an accurate assessment of what’s wrong, until I check it with my meters, gauges, etc. I’ll get back to you shortly.” After an assessment, if the problem hadn’t been resolved, I gave a time estimate for resolution, allowing myself more than enough time to resolve the problem. Overall, that worked fairly well.

    I once attended an assembly, where a Pastor of a fundamentalist church once told the all male crowd how he communicated with his wife in such a way to keep her happy. “She comes to me with her problems,” he said, “but she doesn’t want me to fix her problems, or even offer solutions. She just wants me to listen.” I turned to another guy at my table and said, “My good friends mom used to do that a lot, but he always thought called it whining and complaining. He was always trying to get away from that abuse.”

    I guess I’m just not wired to being a listener of redundancies as much as I am to just analyzing and fixing a problem. Maybe it’s because I’m male, or maybe it’s just me. I’ve spent a lot of time in MRM activism “trying to fix wrongs created by feminism.” I haven’t given up, and am still striving for ways to work smarter – not harder. The easiest way is hard enough.

  • JGteMolder

    Off topic, then again, not even that off topic:

    Anyone listened to the new single by Julian Velard – Company?

    It’s practically what we’ve been saying about the “patriarchy leaders” and other male criminals; that women are half the problem:

    Life is bitter when you try to tow the line
    So much sweeter when you’re guilty of a crime
    People think I turned the water into wine
    Stole another’s guy’s song, told you it was mine

    Well I know what is right
    And doing what is right never did much for me
    I’ve had enough of being
    I’ll cross the line if it makes you mine tonight
    What I want is company, that don’t come for free
    I paid the price for company, there’s no stopping me, no stopping now

    Women love a man who brings them to their knees
    When you’re the King the girls will kill to be Queen
    Slayed the dragon, tamed the crowd with the devil’s touch
    Did all with the hand of God, thank you very much

    Well I know what is right
    And doing what is right never did much for me
    I’ll cross the line if it makes you mine tonight
    What I want is company, that don’t come for free
    I paid the price for company, there’s no stopping me, no stopping now

    Your honor I know a killed man
    I took out the gun of his hand
    The crown was on the ground just lying there
    A single bullet got the world to care

    Well I know what is right
    And doing what is right never did much for me
    I’ll cross the line if it makes you mine tonight
    What I want is company, that don’t come for free
    I paid the price for company, there’s no stopping me, no stopping now

    Even if Julian himself hasn’t read the MRM, there’s no way this was written without in someway, directly or indirectly, being in contact with the manosphere. Our message is spreading further and wider.

  • Perseus

    Hey Nurdy, you’re like, shit fellas, tough crowd. Hey, I realize that I didn’t pick up on the sarcasm until you splained in the comments. So yeah, as painful as it is to not hate you for being a former Kluxwoman supporting the forces trying to extirpate my sex and coming over male genital mutilation and torture, sincerely welcome and nice piece.

    • Nurdy Dancing

      XD LOL . Howdy :D.

      • Atlas Reloaded


        • John the Other

          correction: former feminist.

          Nurdy has taken what we call the red pill as recently as the past month, and coming from a previously feminist view of the world, it is a difficult and bitter pill to swallow.
          (as we are all sharply aware) I would suggest that as strongly as many people feel about that ideology of gender, it is a mistake to conflate the person with the ideology.

          Treatment of individuals who have made the challenging shift in perception necessary in abandoning comforting illusions for a sharply uncomfortable reality as if they are enemies is counter-productive to say the least.

          If we are to succeed in changing public opinions, we will also have to change our own opinions about past adherents to what we consider a bad religion, as those individuals come to change their views. Otherwise, we risk undoing our own success.

          • Kimski

            ‘it is a difficult and bitter pill to swallow.’

            First pill I ever digested, that left me shellshocked for a month.
            But I am so glad I did it anyway.
            Even the colours are brighter.

          • Atlas Reloaded

            Well that last part of your post is the difference right there: I am NOT interested in “changing public opinion”. Just interested in telling feminists to go fuck themselves.

            I say ‘ If you women want the power. Have it, have ALL the power in the world. In the whole fucking world. Just leave me and men LIKE me the fuck alone.’.

          • Skeptic

            “If we are to succeed in changing public opinions, we will also have to change our own opinions about past adherents to what we consider a bad religion, as those individuals come to change their views. Otherwise, we risk undoing our own success.”

            I agree with that JtO, with one caveat.
            I tend to put newer MRAs on ‘probation’ until they’re firmer.
            One swallow (of the red pill) does not a summer make.
            I say that also because I know that on occasions I have relapsed. Furthermore I imagine that given the massive level of incentivized payoff for women in USA the temptation to do so is great.

            The highly sexualized bellydancing video intro seems odd and suspicious to me too.

            I’m not sure what that’s trying to communicate apart from “Look at my semi-naked body gyrating and forming erotic poses”.
            I’m always suspicious when a woman blatantly shoves her sexuality front and center whilst trying to communicate ideas.
            So I give bellydancing nerd a qualified welcome and await further evidence of red-pill consciousness.

          • Shrek6

            It is my opinion that we have suffered this discrimination over the past 40 odd years for two reasons.

            1. Women were easily sucked in by the power brokers of the feminist religion, because women in general have certain needs and desires that most men do not have, and these traits are easily corrupted by corrupt individuals. These traits are also self centred and indeed selfish!

            2. The majority of men sat back and watched their world crumble and didn’t lift a bloody finger to stop it. Most were blindly ignorant, but many others actively engaged in assisting the change, not realising that they were eventually going to cut their own noses off to spite their faces.

            And I am as angry as the rest of you over this. Suffering in abusive marriages, losing children, losing homes, losing a brother who also suffered at the hands of an evil woman, etc. It is enough to make any man want to hate and never forgive!

            I firmly believe that we cannot undo any of these negative changes, without the full co-operation and assistance of the ‘quiet majority’ of women, who are currently guilty of all crimes against men, by knowingly keeping quiet over the crimes of their sisters.

            In summation. If we get one woman, any women, choosing to stand on the side of ‘normality and maturity’ then assist in this battle to fight for the rights of men and children, then we must embrace this woman as one of our own.

            It is so easy to hate and never forgive.

            Forgiveness, never lets the guilty off of the hook. Forgiveness, releases the victims from their suffering, so that they can move on in life and live to fight another day.

            Worth thinking about fellas!

          • OneHundredPercentCotton

            My first foray wading into the midsts of MRAs was with a “both sides of the fence” posture.

            I got my ass handed to me.

            I backed off, hurt, angry, confused…my INTENTIONS were GOOD! What was with the anger and hostility?

            I backed off quite awhile…but shit kept piling up, the smugness and man hater rhetoric escalated along with the lies, damn lies and statistics.

            If there is a “woman friendly” site, AVFM, and ONLY AVFM would be it.

            Look how you guys regrouped your position when you thought Moonbat committed suicide? You actually reacted with DECENCY…even AFTER finding out she pulled a typical female fake “suicide attempt”.

            …which shows how much this is NOT a woman hater site, but rather a site that delves in honest protest, shows has a conscience and good faith for social justice changes.

            Sometimes you HAVE to light up even the most well meaning if they are trampling instead of treading.

            If they REALLY care about this cause, they will revaluate their position and return.

            If they don’t…they didn’t belong here.

        • Sting Chameleon

          Give the gal some credit, she’s fighting the Feminist Virus that was in her system.

  • cuatezon

    I moved to Socal 3yrs ago and work mostly from home, so in order to meet others and date I’ve gone to the internet (not sure if will continue to do so).

    Here in Socal I’ve really noticed a comical, yet sad thing. Many of the women’s profiles scream ‘I’m a Golden Uterine Feminist and I want to use you for your money and be spoiled’.

    Often, the profiles say something like “I am independent, strong, confident, well-travelled and superbly intelligent, seeking a financially stable man who can treat me like a princess…”.

    Once, I was screamed at by a woman on the phone b/c I suggested a coffee date rather than dinner for our first date. She told me “I’m not looking for some cheapie, I’m a real woman and want to get dressed up and have a nice dinner and a drink on my first date…”. My reply was: ‘Click’ and hung up on the psycho.

    In 3 years, I’ve never read a profile indicating desire to meet a man ‘with a good heart’ or ‘with good values/charachter’. Never seen that yet. Its always about success and being financially stable.

    I get that stability is a desirable trait in anyone (man or woman). But what about mental/emotional stability? What about someone who has your back? How about fidelity? In fact, many wealthy men cheat on their wives they can attract plenty of lovers. Again, mental stability far, far more important for me these days – and if you have doubts about the mental stability problems take a look at Dr. Tara Palmtier’s website Shrink4Men.

    Perhaps its more prevalent here in Socal than anywhere else, I don’t know. But if you read the profiles here, to me its clear they are not interested in men as people or their feelings, their mind.

    So many of these feminists are hypocrites then, because if they are so successful and intelligent, empowered, wealthy and whatever, why do they need to view men as providers and a potential resource?

    • Bombay

      “So many of these feminists are hypocrites then, because if they are so successful and intelligent, empowered, wealthy and whatever, why do they need to view men as providers and a potential resource?”

      Because they do not want to work anymore.

    • MrStodern

      SoCal chicks are some of the worst, primarily because even though the state itself is broke, there’s still plenty of money to be thrown around when it comes to the private sector. Rich dudes are still rich, and they still love banging hot young broads. And the broads, whether they’re young and hot or not, feel entitled to be treated like queens.

      “I am independent, strong, confident, well-travelled and superbly intelligent, seeking a financially stable man who can treat me like a princess…”.

      Only a woman could make such a horribly contradictory statement about herself and keep a straight face.

    • Sting Chameleon

      Men are status objects to them, don’t you see?. If they’re willing to treat a man like a status object, they shouldn’t complain if that man treats them like a sex object.

    • externalangst

      Many women attain their self-worth as a women by how much they can extract and exploit a man.

  • andybob

    Dear Ms Dancing,

    It says a great deal about you that your MRA friends thought that you had the intellectual integrity and strength of character to be open to their ideas.

    Most people are fearful of contemplating ideas that contradict so much they have learned. Few ideas have been imparted with such relentlessly dogmatic pervasiveness than feminism. It infects everything.

    It took me a long time to come to terms with the full implications of the red pill, but it was a liberating experience. Welcome to the MRM and thank you for such an interesting and thought-provoking article. Hope to hear a lot from you.


  • Jean

    I think that men have a need to try to solve their partners’ problem. Just as long as it doesn’t challenge their integrity and dignity.

    • Arvy

      Whose integrity and dignity? Their own or their partner’s?

      As for problem solving, need is probably an understatement. Humans (not alone) are problem solvers by nature. They can hardly resist the urge.

    • kiwihelen

      It’s a socialised need that can be overcome. Mum taught me to never give unsolicited advice. It works!

      • Jean


        Both of their integrity and dignity. Example: helping your girlfriend/wife carrying bags when they’re clearly struggling doesn’t make you a mangina. If you hire a woman who’s clearly unqualified for a job because she lacks strength just because she’s a woman, that’s a problem.


        I’m not really sure that what I’m talking about is a socialized need such as going out for a beer with your friends.

        I understand that we’re standing for equality, but equality doesn’t stand for indifference towards the other gender either.

      • Arvy

        Sounds fair enough, Jean.

        Helen I’m not sure I understand what you mean by a “socialised need” that your mum taught you to resist in some cases. How was the problem solving urge “socialised” into you in the first place and did it get “socialised” out again, or just moderated by conscious effort.

        • Jean

          I think we should embrace differences between both genders. It’s in part what feminazis fail to do.

          • Arvy

            Give us back a few of our male spaces and we’ll think about embracing the differences again. :)

          • Jean

            True, I concurr.

  • Skeptic

    I often think that not rushing in to rescue a woman who’s facing a problem forces her to ask for help, which is a good thing, as it makes visible female dependency instead of the feminist baloney about independent womanhood.

    Sometimes when a woman is humble enough to ask for assistance I respond in kindly fashion, but then sadly find that often I get little or no thanks for doing so (especially with American and Australian women).
    It’s then apparent I’m dealing with an entitlement princess who’ll get no further assistance from me in future.
    I’m then primed and ready to tell her I’m not interested in being taken for granted and used.
    She’s then persona non grata as I continue to man out.

    • Jean

      I think it’s important that women seek for help from a man when she needs it and doesn’t take it for granted. It has to be rooted in their minds that they aren’t owed anything from us.

      Same for us.

  • Gloria Sass

    There’s a term for taking responsibility for someone else’s flaws and mistakes… it’s called enabling. It’s a term used to explain to the families of addicts why we cannot, by helping them alleviate the symptoms of their disorder without confronting the disorder itself, enable them to continue wallowing in it.

    It doesn’t make you responsible for the addiction, whether it be drugs, gambling, or damsel-in-distress mode… but it does actively harm the addict. It’s loved-one for “That’s okay. Keep damaging yourself. It’s not wrong, and I’ll be here to feel sorry for you the whole time, because I’m too blind to see that I’m helping you stay in this dark hole instead of helping you get out.”

    Responsibility for this goes both ways. Men and women need to be able to partner up and work together in a way that teams up our respective strengths to counter our respective weaknesses. To this end, both sides need to recognize the difference between teamwork and enabling.

    Take the example of the squandering sister/rescuing brother. If the brother offers one-time constructive criticism instead of money and the steps back and lets her figure out what to do, he’s not fixing her problem for her. He’s helping her see the mistake that leads to it, and giving her the chance to act on that information. The sister has to be able to accept, assess, and apply the advice in order for it to be a help (a challenge, as we are often enabled as little girls instead of made to do this like our brothers, and therefore must learn on the fly to take responsibility instead of offense.) If she does this, it’s still her own effort that goes into solving the problem.

    If he instead just keeps giving her money, it doesn’t make him responsible for her flaw – we are ALL responsible for our own actions – but it means he isn’t contributing real assistance, and he’s giving her an excuse to continue refusing the often painful experience of normal, necessary personal growth that occurs when we learn not to overspend.

    At the same time, the sister needs to recognize that she’s using her brother to maintain an addiction to helplessness. She’s not responsible for his empathy-based choice to bail her out, but she is responsible for the damsel-in-distress routine that inspires his compassion. Getting out of that pattern requires will and determination on her part. She has to recognize that her presentation of her struggle as a function of personal ineptitude affects her loved ones’ perception of and response to her, and as an adult, adjust her handling of the situation accordingly. She is not refusing her brother’s love if she does this. She is giving him the chance to see that he doesn’t have to take responsibility for the mistakes of others.

    If she instead just keeps asking for money, she’s enabling HIS addiction – the need to be the hero. By continuing the pattern, she is normalizing that addiction, encouraging him to identify that as the response he should have to women, and training him to do the same with any girlfriend, or with his wife. By accepting her brother’s enabling of her flaw, the sister is priming him to be used by other women.

    Again, it doesn’t make her responsible for his failure to look out for himself. Again, we are all responsible for our own actions… but again, in giving him the false success of playing the hero, she’s giving him an excuse to continue refusing the often painful experience of normal, necessary personal growth that occurs when we learn how to exercise tough love.

  • Hope

    It is solid advice, from a certain perspective. Someone pointed out to me recently that the difference between an Oregonian/Irishman and someone from Appalachia is that an Oregonian/Irishman is expected to help someone who’s struggling and floundering, whereas someone from Appalachia is expected to walk past unless asked for help. It can quite often be a case of cultural differences in expression.

    I never see it as belittling to reach down and pick someone up who has fallen, but there are many who see it as me belittling their abilities. Two perspectives, neither completely wrong, and both 100% unable to be compromised.

    Food for thought.

  • DornierPfeil

    “See that girl who drank herself into oblivion and is presently passed out on the curb? For the sake of her motivation not to do so again, Please Do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT scoop her up take her indoors and wrap a blanket around her. Also resisting the urge to save her has the added benefit of protecting you from any false accusations.”

    6 or so years ago I knew a woman I liked a lot who was in a downward self-destructive spiral of drunken partying. But I never violated her agency to decide to self-inflict death upon herself by attempting to call attention to her lifestyle and its consequences. No patronizing lectures about what binge drinking was doing to her. She eventually killed herself via alcohol poisoning. I still wonder if it was at all possible to prevent it if I had simply interfered with her “inviolable agency”. Seeing her parents carry her ashes away from the memorial service made me wish I had.

    • Aimee McGee

      The issue of assistance vs enablement is difficult.
      On one occasion I got a male friend who was a binge drinker admitted to A&E and his stomach pumped after I became concerned he was exhibiting alcohol poisoning signs.
      It was his wake-up call and he reduced his drinking after that. We never discussed it though.
      My rule of thumb: I’m not an addictions specialist. I’m good at signposting people to services. If the intervention will challenge rather than protect then I will do it. But this has resulted in some folk not liking what I do…your friend might have blown you off if you had confronted the issue and she had not been ready

  • Camran Manikfan

    Fair enough.

  • Daniel Kulkarni

    If you think men are halting your growth of confidence, success and empowerment, maybe that says more about you than it says about the men you’ve dealt with. After all, you cannot control what people tell you, but you can control how you react to what they say. Have you tried telling men that you’re just venting and you don’t want a solution, just someone to listen to your problems?