BPD: Sick, or just crazy asshole?

I have been a longtime admirer of the scant handful of mental health professionals that have chosen to deal in the truth, rather than just peddle whatever is sellable to women in the misandric zeitgeist.

Staying on an honest road is tough in any arena. In the feminist dominated realm of mental “health,” it is brutal. I know, I lived that life for a couple of decades. I can tell you from personal experience that the greatest amount of flak I got from other professionals was for failing to follow the party line on any given matter.

My first serious conflict was over alcoholism, which I was supposed to view as a disease. That complicated things for me, mainly because alcoholism is not a disease. I don’t speculate on that, or assert it as my “perspective.” I claim it as the irrefutable truth. There is no evidence at all, none, that alcoholism is a disease, except that it was recognized as one in the year of my birth, 1957, by the AMA, with absolutely no scientific evidence to back it up.

It was purely a political and financial decision that enabled doctors to start charging alcoholics to “treat” them, and allowed active, drinking alcoholics to do what they do best…point at something other them themselves as the culprit in their lives. It was a win-win, kind of.

Another significant area of conflict I experienced in the mental health field was in respect to the Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), or, the more accurately labeled, “dangerous asshole that should be avoided like the plague.”

Please bear with me while I cover some basics here. In dealing with mental health issues, we are dealing with a spectacularly wide and diverse array of problems and their causes.  There are disorders that a purely physiological in origin, like Organic Brain Syndrome (OBS) where medical disease (or injury) results in impaired mental functioning. OBS is a somewhat antiquated term, and has been removed from classification from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) because of a growing number of discoveries that point to organic (physiological) causes for many psychiatric disorders.

But of importance here is that what we find with many victims of brain injury or disease is that they have severely diminished control over their thoughts, and often their actions.  That capability has been taken from them due to the effects of brain trauma or disease.

Schizophrenia, a devastating condition which causes all manner of neurocognitive impairment, is also thought to be at least partially physiological in nature. As with other organic brain problems, the victim is completely powerless over their symptoms and sometimes their behavior. It is a crushing disease that literally terrorizes its victims. Imagine actually seeing demons come out of the wall to tear you to pieces, or your mind telling you that God is speaking through your dog, telling you to kill someone.

Schizophrenics do not choose these hallucinations and bizarre thoughts and without medical or even legal intervention, they sometimes have little to no control over how they respond to them. Similarly, bi-polar disorder can result in acute psychosis rendering an individuals ability to control their actions questionable at best.

There are other examples of when physiological causes are at the root of severe psychological and behavioral problems. Depression is a good example. It can be traced to a myriad of physical causes and result in some very dangerous physical symptoms, including alcoholism, drug abuse, violence and suicide.

But depression is a disorder, despite having some possible physical causes, that demands to be differentiated in approach from diseases like schizophrenia.

An individual, no matter how depressed, is capable of making an informed, rational choice about their actions. 

In that light, they are fully responsible for whether or not they drink alcohol, take recreational drugs, become violent or even kill themselves.  We can give them medication and psychotherapy, as well as provide other support services, but in the end they are fully and completely responsible for every choice they make in their lives. While their thinking can be clouded by their problem, they are fully capable of determining the difference between right and wrong as well as understanding the consequences of their actions.

That brings us to the BPD.  This individual, typically a female (yes, that is documented) is one whose mental state renders her a significant emotional, psychological and often physical danger to anyone in her life, and in particular men with whom she becomes involved romantically.

BPD is the indicated diagnosis when some or all of the following are present:

  • A long-term pattern of unstable or turbulent emotions, including frequent displays of inappropriate anger.
  • A pattern of impulsive actions and chaotic relationships, including, but not limited to impulsiveness with money, substance abuse, sexual relationships, binge eating, and shoplifting.
  • Intolerant, often hostile reaction to being alone.
  • Repeated crises and acts of self-injury, such as wrist cutting or overdosing.

There is a more thorough examination of behaviors common to BPD, but you won’t likely find them detailed in diagnostic literature. The following are traits I have drawn from personal experience observing borderline women in clinical and real life settings.

  • A remarkable facility for lying and manipulation, particularly for sympathy and adulation, but also to enlist action from others that will further their personal objectives for revenge or retaliation.
  • A propensity to make false allegations of rape, sexual abuse and domestic violence.
  • A near bottomless capacity for vengeance over the least, or even imagined, slights.
  • A sadistic pleasure in causing unwarranted harm to others who are perceived to be enemies, or even those determined to not love them “enough.”
  • The capacity to justify and rationalize any abusive behavior, no matter how extreme or how innocent the victim. No moral compass.
  • The repetitive demand that others sympathize with them, even as they cause destruction in the lives of innocents.
  • The distorted mindset that the abuse they inflict is not abuse, but that objecting to it or fighting back is abusive to them.

And one other thing must be incorporated into your understanding of the BPD. They are in total control of what they are doing.  There is no organic factor or deficit in self control that causes what they do. Their acts are willful and premeditated. They comprehend the difference between right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate, truth and lies, reality and fantasy.

They frequently hold jobs and involve themselves in social situations where their destructive behaviors would quickly work against them. They often perform admirably and demonstrate a respectable capacity for self control and appropriate behavior. Any notion that they cannot help their actions, which you will most frequently hear from BPD’s or the unscrupulous clinicians who profit from their condition by helping them rationalize their behavior, is completely fraudulent.

They know what they are doing and often enjoy it.

Do they suffer tremendously from internal chaos and unstable emotions? Certainly. So do the depressed, and alcoholics and those with anxiety disorders and other maladies. We just don’t offer any of them as pass on hurting themselves and others. Nor should we.

Given the absolute potential for devastation that the BPD brings into the lives of anyone unfortunate enough to be in their path, it is pretty important to understand the prognosis for their condition.

There is no psychotropic medication that treats BPD and there is no known cognitive therapy that works with them. In short, they have an intractable condition that is impervious to treatment of any kind. They cannot be helped near as much as they can be avoided for the sake of helping others.

There is a running joke among psychiatric professionals about BPD’s. And yes, we told jokes about serious problems. It is one of the ways clinicians deal with the stress of working with them.  Anyway, it’s a simple one-liner.

You don’t treat borderlines, you ignore them.

And that, in the broader sense, is also indirect professional advice when it comes to anyone with the misfortune to find themselves locked in the sights of a BPD.

Get away from them.

Go directly in the other direction. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.00. Just get thee…away; chalk whatever losses you suffer up to experience and be grateful about what you could have lost.

Families of alcoholics are told to cut them off (and the enabling) as long as they are drinking. It is good advice that helps the alcoholic face their problem and often saves the family a lot of misery.  But dealing with a borderline is not near as simple or easy as going to an Alanon meeting and learning better boundaries. Their pathology is far too serious and dangerous for that.

Hear this, and hear it clearly. They are not going to get better. Ever. There is nothing you can do, no kindness you can extend, no sympathy you can embrace, no psychological slight-of-hand, nor the culmination of wisdom from your entire life’s experience that you can bring to bear to make a BPD anything other than a major, life draining pain in the ass and a potential nightmare waiting to destroy everything you have, inside and out.

In fact, should you find yourself engaging in endless internal debate about whether you should stay or leave a relationship with a BPD, I suggest you get help for yourself. Unlike them, there may be a chance to reach you and help you identify what causes you to stay attached to a lifestyle of abuse, chaos and danger.

Then again, there is always the red pill.

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  • Jacob Shaftoe

    Hi there, oh great knower of all things… Quick query: Do you happen to know about Dialectical Behavioral Therapy? It’s you know, like the therapy that began being developed in the 80’s by a woman (I know, right) and it leads to people with BPD recovering. So, rather than look at two simple facts: A) BPD is basically PTSD but from a younger age (mostly) and is referred to a lot as Complex PTSD, so actually it’s functionally no different from hardcore, manly issues like surviving watching your friends get shot; and B) It’s also highly treatable, and as such undercuts most of the Feminist dogma about people who suffer trauma having to live pointless half-lives for the rest of time…

    So, here I am, a mostly recovered male BPD sufferer (or maybe not, I’m not sure if I’m definitely hitting the minimum criteria anymore), who has been looking at joining the movement for a few weeks now. As a part of my continued improvement, I had to face realisations about the massive emotional abuse suffered at the hands of my bitter, Feminist, divorced, sole custody, child-support demanding, father/man hating mother. You know, the same abuse that contributed to about 70% of my symptoms. So, funnily, as I’m getting over being demonised by feminist dogma, I start to come across antifem stuff online, mostly girlwriteswhat…

    I spend two weeks in hell (though not a hell like any given day of my life prior to treatment), then start to get it back together and do some looking…

    In the last two days I’ve discovered a really important thing: Both sides of this bullshit gender debate are all those things: Both sides are of the same coin, and both are bullshit. Both come from a place of anger, bitterness and pain, and both judge their enemies in ways far harsher than they are willing to judge themselves.

    Funnily enough, these are things I had to learn not to do, in order to have a happy, healthy life.

    But still, I can comfortably judge all you gender warriors as sad, bitter people, because that much is obvious.

    And anyone judging BPD from a gendered perspective best be aware, men have it just as much as women, and they don’t get diagnosed until they’re in prison, so I’d be careful talking this way about everyone who has a personality disorder the next time you are at the pub, because you never know…

    The guy you’re drinking with might have been raped by his mum, or his dad, or a priest, or beaten every day, until really warped and twisted understandings of self and other took the place of healthy development. And worse still, they may have a name for what happened to them, and that name could well be DBT.

    Also, um… I see a lot of people deride feminism for its reliance on dodgy facts and such… Maybe look up Marsha Linehan in a websearch sometime, then pull your head in, dingbat.

    It’s not only treatable, it’s treatable in the short-term, with no lifelong commitment, no drugs, and full recovery. It’s called science, you might wanna try it sometime…

    In other news, so glad you’re happy to drive men who’ve been directly harmed in the long term by feminism away from your cause with preachy, judgmental, unresearched hatespeech.

    Have fun winning your war mate…

    Jacob Shaftoe.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ David King

    Yes, your lack of empathy for the suffering of others couldn’t be plainer. (BTW, no need to bowdlerise your words. We have rules against bigotry, not bad language.)

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ David King

    Given that nobody owes me their attention, I owe nobody mine — so yes, non-BPDs (indeed, anybody, including other BPDs) do have the right to avoid people with BPD.

    These are basic boundaries, lack of understanding of which (I gather) BPDs and NPDs suffer.

  • Denise

    I don’t think you sound bitter. I think you sound like someone who has been there and back with a BPD. Don’t listen to the souls who don’t know what hell it is and how hard it is to get away from their clingy selves.

  • tigger

    When people talk about the horrors of narcissistic abuse, often the distinction is made between “malignant narcissists” and “garden variety narcissists”. The victims/survivors/targets can then go onto completely and utterly slam these disgusting malignant creatures, while people who know a common narcissist, or recovering narcissists of that lesser/better kind, can sit back and not take offence on behalf of their loved ones or themselves.

    I suggest that the same distinction is needed here. This article is right on the mark, insofar as it describes *malignant* borderlines. There would have been no need for any of the fighting in these comments, were that distinction known and made explicit originally. There would have been room for the nicer borderlines to comment instead as allies, since the malignant ones have given them such a bad name.

    I further suggest that we should drop terms like borderline, narcissist and psychopath altogether, just for a moment at least, and simply call them “malignants” (or “crazy assholes” would work just as well). This would work, because there really is no distinction between a malignant borderline and the female version of malignant narcissist! Once we’ve focussed on the fact that it is their choice to wilfully do evil that is the real problem, then we might find it useful to understand the finer nuances of their behaviour by applying terms such as borderline, narcissist or psychopath.

    By looking at the issue in this light, I hope everyone here who isn’t malignant can make peace.

    • Object

      ‘Nicer Borderlines’!?
      Is this the same as ‘Nicer Psychopaths’ or ‘Nicer Cancer’.
      Hey, give them a chance….that’s all they need.

      Urgh, I need a shower.

      • tigger

        Actually, there are nicer psychopaths too. Psychopaths absolutely cannot help it that their brain is wired not to feel empathy. However, some people with that brain wiring make a moral choice to do right by others. They’re much more capable of doing the right thing too, once they make that choice, because their decisions are not clouded by emotion.

        There absolutely are nicer borderlines too. Maybe they’re misdiagnosed; they don’t really count, because they don’t hurt others. I disagree. What the borderline absolutely cannot help is that their brain is wired to be hypersensitive to the feelings around them. This is what gives the malignant ones such a lethal ability to target you where it will hurt you the most. If they don’t have that ability, then I would venture to say that they are misdiagnosed. They are malignant, but malignant something else, perhaps either a psychopath or neurotypical who has found it strategic to behave like a borderline. However, the ones who are not malignant, either it has never occurred to them to blame others for their pain (they don’t know the source of the overwhelming feelings of empathy they have; I think that’s the autistic or aspergers form of borderline) or they know others are impacting their feelings, but they have a sense that their own feelings are not normal compared to everyone else, that nobody (usually) is intentionally hurting them, hence they make a moral decision not to hurt others. Obviously, it’s a lot more complicated for a borderline, no matter what they do! So kudos to those who have made the good moral decision.

        Absolutely don’t give MALIGNANT borderlines a chance , nor any other malignant personality disordered individual for that matter. If that means you also don’t give the decent ones a chance, because you feel there’s too much risk that they’ll turn on you, that’s fair enough, that’s a very prudent strategy. You do what you need to do; there are plenty of other people out there who will give the good ones a chance.

        Also, cancer is a better analogy for the “malignant” dimension, not the borderline-psychopath dimension of brain wiring for high-low affective empathy.

        • Object

          The problem I see here is that to be BPD would include hurting themselves (acting in) through suicidal ideation, cutting etc, or hurting others (acting out).
          Both of these behaviours have a huge NPD root to them, it’s to hurt and traumatise others. They and their putrid emotions are absolutely the only thing that exists. I do believe they know what they do and don’t care, when the shame of what they do does seep through their delusions in some of their more sane moments, they cry and then erase it from their mind…Not Guilty.

          Their hypersensitive ‘feelings’!
          They have the emotional depth of the seven dwarfs…. and play Snow White. They are ALWAYS looking for narcissistic supply, so spend time mining for peoples wounds to exploit. If they get none the person is ejected, whether in the workplace, family or home. the ‘Cold Empathy’ they have is not a gift, it is a weapon.

          They are unable to really love, a complex emotion that requires empathy, this is why it turns to hate so easily, their ‘love’ is just need, fear and hate disguised. Their twisted sexuality is about control, their passion is disguised impulsive aggression, their desires are really just ‘shit tests’, their politics of whatever affiliation just an excuse to hate and berate, their ‘love’ of animals just reveals their hatred of people. They have no friends because they betray everyone and themselves on Biblical proportions. They run away and smear their victims to hide their putrid insides.

          I knew a young man (21) dead because of his girlfriend (and probably mothers) disorder, he ‘fell’ under a car the day after his Girlfriend raged at him, attacked him and bit through his cheek!

          I met a man who spent time in a mental institution because of his boyfriends destructive actions.

          BPD Mothers who have spent their lives crushing the souls of their children.

          It is pure trauma having these people in your life, The knife goes in so slowly it hardly registers.

          How would you tell if they were naughty or nice? check their name on Santa’s list!

          Perhaps ‘Malignant’ would best apply to BPDs who actually commit homicide, and are caught: Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Jodi Arias, Gadafi, etc…

          • tigger

            I’m pretty sure that when, for example, ACoN’s (adult children of narcissists) label their narcissist parent(s) as “malignant narcissists”, as opposed to the fairly harmless garden variety narcissist, murder is not a requirement. Sure, some of them have literally murdered someone, some have gotten away with it, but mostly they just chip away at their offspring’s wellbeing, often driving them towards suicide.

            Now, isn’t that just the way you’ve described what you regard as ordinary non-malignant borderlines? How the hell is what you described NOT malignant? You’re playing with words, just to avoid acknowledging the existence of those who have a good moral compass and those who are comorbidly autistic.

            I don’t dispute that the people you describe exist. I do say that they are only a subset of the borderline population. I assert that this subset should properly be called “malignant borderline”, to distinguish them from the garden variety borderlines, who sometimes get stuck inside their own heads, but don’t set out to hurt others.

            I’m curious to know where you get your knowledge about what motivations borderlines have. On what evidence do you assert that acting in borderlines cut for the effect it will have on others? Has someone you presume to be borderline told you that that is their motivation? Has a likely borderline said something about cutting, but you tried to read between the lines and imposed your own interpretation on what they said? Or is it possible that you are projecting?

            Now I’m not saying that you are someone who goes around doing borderline things, and then projects your behaviour onto other people. What I am saying is that you imagine what your state of mind would be if you were going around doing all these borderline things. Naturally, what you imagine is evil, because it goes so much against the grain of who you are, in such an abhorrent way. You would have to be willfully evil to go around doing borderline things. So what you now do, is you project that evil intent onto borderline people.

            This is the blessing of being autistic. I’m autistic. I don’t spontaneously imagine this stuff, I have to try really hard if I’m going to. I stay out of people’s heads (as do the autistic borderlines I’ve mentioned) so I don’t get locked into errant thinking about what is really going on in there. I can keep an open mind. That’s why I have a high resistance to narcissistic abuse, although that’s probably nullified by my propensity to attract it!

            Anyway, what’s happening here is that you are putting yourself in the borderline’s shoes, instead of putting yourself AS A BORDERLINE in the borderline’s shoes. It’s a bit like a philosophy article I read at uni years ago, by Nagel I think, “what’s it like to be a bat?” The point of that article, if I remember and understood rightly, was “no, not what it’s like for YOU to be a bat, but what it’s like for the BAT to be a bat!” And I guess “bat” is a pretty funny analogy for borderlines!

          • Object

            Of course a tiger is not ‘evil’, there are many examples in nature of parasites causing their hosts to commit suicide (The Lancet fluke for instance), are they evil?, a cat ‘playing’ with a mouse, ‘evil’.

            Chimps have been found to have serial killers amongst their troops, who also hide and play-act grieving the deaths they cause with the rest of the troop (trauma bonding). We must not judge people on their actions that would be wrong, the poor things. What is evil? Zero degrees of empathy?

            Warm empathy!!!???
            eg a male borderline can’t handle his girlfriend crying…..

            No because it’s ALL about his feelings, ONLY. If she was crying for him it would be OK.

            Now then Tigger.

            ‘I’m curious to know where you get your information’

            ‘Now I’m not saying that you…’

            ‘You are….’

            ‘You would have to be willfully evil to go around doing borderline things’

            You are precious.

            ‘At the root of all personality disorders is pure narcissism. BPD a failed attempt at NPD, the Psychopath at the far end of the narcissistic spectrum.

            If there is an absence of emotions, empathy, and the ability to form attachments to others, what replaces these human qualities?
            The inability to have emotions is replaced by the motivation for dominance, control or power……. to them, having power over another IS the pleasure.

            ‘Hear this, and hear it clearly. They are not going to get better. Ever. There is nothing you can do, no kindness you can extend, no sympathy you can embrace, no psychological slight-of-hand, nor the culmination of wisdom from your entire life’s experience that you can bring to bear to make a BPD anything other than a major, life draining pain in the ass and a potential nightmare waiting to destroy everything you have, inside and out.’

          • tigger

            I’m having a technical problem here. I posted two replies the other night, but now I can’t see the second one, even though you seem to be referring to something in the disappeared reply (warm empathy; the male borderline who can’t handle his girlfriend crying). I feel I can’t continue this conversation until my missing post comes back, or if it really is gone and gone for good, then I’d have to rewrite it.

            It’s bad enough thinking and writing about this shit, without having technical problems to contend with too!

          • Object

            You are precious.

          • tigger

            Is “precious” meant to be an insult? My reply was gone, so I couldn’t read it to try and see what miscommunication was in it that was causing you not to understand me. I figure it must be stuck in a pre moderation queue, or maybe just a database bug, who knows. So I leave the conversation for a few days or a week, to give it time to sort itself out. Sure enough, I come back now and my missing comment is no longer missing. What the fuck is so precious about that?

            Now let me see… I think there are two misunderstandings I’d like to correct, plus one major point of agreement I might have.

            Firstly, the bit where I say that if you were doing borderline things, it would be evil. I was particularly thinking about the so-called acting in side of things, though it could also apply to mindless acting out. My point was that, whereas for you it is natural for you to think of the effect on others, for borderlines this is not necessarily true. Yes, it is true for some borderlines, that they know exactly what they’re doing, that they are doing it to make you pay, for some completely disproportionate revenge, and that therefore they are evil. Those are the malignant ones, and half of them probably aren’t even borderline anyway, but just find it serves them well to bung on the behaviours.

            But there are other borderlines too, who really don’t have a clue how they affect others, whether acting in or out. Especially if acting in, they probably have the same logic as smokers or people who don’t wear seatbelts, that they’re not hurting anyone but themselves, therefore they’re not committing any great sin. As for those who act out, but in a mindless way, not being able to predict how others will be hurt, these types probably are on the autistic spectrum.

            Autistic borderline is totally different from neurotypical borderline. The latter knows exactly what they’re doing, just as you know exactly what you’re taking care not to do. The autistic version generally has no idea what they’re doing to other people. They can’t think about it in real time like you can. Maybe they take out the occasional petty revenge, just like any well balanced person does once in a while, but it’s nothing on the scale of the malignant ones. Their petty revenge may be a bit over the top, due to their cognitive empathy deficit (aka lack of cold empathy) but it’s no more evil than normal low level petty revenge.

            So, the point is, to attribute evil to a borderline, you’d have to have a fair idea that they have the same capability as you do to understand how others feel. If you have a fair idea that they don’t have that capability, that they may be on the autistic spectrum, then it’s not fair to write them off as evil. Sure, they’re a lot of trouble and might not be capable of improvement, and cutting them out of your life may be best for you, but they are not evil and this article unfairly condemns them along with the malignant ones who actually deserve condemnation.

            Now the second misunderstanding, the idea of hot empathy. Think of hot water versus warm water. Warm water is immensely nice and comforting, just like warm empathy, or the affective empathy that comes straight from the amygdala. Hot water burns or scalds, and is extremely unpleasant to that degree. This too is the affective empathy straight from the amygdala, but as you can see, a borderline’s affective empathy is not just quantitatively but qualitatively different from a balanced person’s affective empathy, and this is due to dysfunction of the amygdala. So even though hot empathy comes from the same place as warm empathy, they are very different experiences. Affective empathy is not pleasant for the borderline, like it is for the well balanced. Therefore, it naturally isn’t going to have similar effects on thinking and behaviour.

            Finally, to try and make a point of agreement: yes, it is hard to tell the difference, between the naughty and the nice… or rather the evil and the not so bad. It’s a continuum between the socially capable neurotypical based borderline and the somewhat innocent autistic based borderline, and to complicate that, the socially capable may bung on autistic cluelessness if it’s to their advantage. It’s a continuum between the psychopathic amygdala and borderline amygdala, where female psychopaths may find it advantageous to bung on borderline behaviours, as may female well-balanced (very very evil), and then when you get to the actual real borderlines with the “hot water” amygdala, there’s the continuum between the boiling hot water (they really can’t help it, unless someone fixes their brain) and merely uncomfortably hot water, where they may never be able to feel the same warm fuzziness as the rest of us, but they can learn to get along and be good.Maybe medical science can help with the last part, to accurately diagnose the genuine borderlines versus the normals or psychopaths who are bunging it on, but without that, it is indeed hard to be sure whether someone is “sick or crazy asshole”. And as you say, the bottom line is they are all potentially major life draining pain in the butts, regardless of evil intent. No contact and no children with them certainly is prudent. But not everyone is 100% prudent, are they?

          • tigger

            Also , the “cold empathy” you mentioned is not the empathy I was talking about. I was actually talking about “warm empathy”, or affective empathy, the stuff that comes through your amygdala. It’s probably more accurately labelled “hot empathy” for the borderlines who have a bad reaction to it. For example, a male borderline can’t handle his girlfriend crying (about something that happened at work, for example) so he kicks her out onto the street. That’s warm empathy gone into overload, hot empathy.

            Cold empathy would be cognitive empathy, coming from the cerebral cortex. This is the only kind of empathy that a psychopath can have. This is the kind of getting-into-people’s-heads that is antithetical to autism. Neurotypicals have it, but they have developed it through warm empathy. Borderlines may develop it through hot empathy, which is what can give it a different, malignant quality.

            Actually, considering that psychopaths can acquire the power of cold empathy only through scientific experimentation, they positively seem like angels compared to malignant borderlines! And the ones whose parents or teachers steered them in the right direction, probably are.

  • Object

    Oh dear,
    No love here,

    Just hate and fear,

  • tigger

    i know, it’s horrible that you should be lumped in with the malignant borderlines, half of whom might not even be borderline at all, but merely bunging on the behaviours when they can get some advantage out of it. I think it’s extremely dishonest that the blog author and most respondents refuse to acknowledge the distinction between the malignant ones who choose evil, and the good ones who choose to avoid evil. And they’re self contradictory to insist both A) they choose evil and (B) they’ll never change. Anyway, with all the stories here, do any of the alleged borderline exes actually have a diagnosis, or have they just guessed? These supposed borderlines could be anything: female psychopath ; histrionic; narcissist. The only thing for sure, is they are malignant. That term should be the focus of the vitriol – malignant.

    • Jacob Shaftoe

      I think this distinction is odd, considering you can’t read minds. Unless you can, you can’t distinguish between a dog that bites because you touched its’ sore knee, and a dog that bites wanting you to believe you touched a sore spot.

      Trying to solve horrible pain in the innocent by focusing on the unproven hypothesis (understandable, but not provable) that some are evil and lying, well…

      That’s why so many men go to gaol, is it not?

      • tigger

        i think there’s a definite distinction between the ones who choose evil and the ones who choose to avoid evil. However, I was silly to present that dichotomy. There are also the ones who don’t choose evil but also fail to choose to avoid evil. The distinction between those and the willfully evil is as you say: unprovable. For all practical purposes, both are malignant. But the ones who successfully choose to avoid evil stand apart from them, and for observable behavioral reasons.

        Still, even though I can’t read minds, I do believe different ones exist. My concept of borderline is not behaviorally defined, but rather defined by internal feelings and susceptibilities. Similarly for psychopath and sociopath, whom also I don’t believe are intrinsically bad. I see the evil coming from narcissism, which concept I do take as behavioral rather than internal. There are borderline narcissists, psychopathic narcissists, sociopathic narcissists, and also neurotypical and autistic narcissists. Any one of these various internal states, without narcissism, is just fine. Add narcissism, and that’s where the real problems start.

  • Guest

    You miss the point or gloss it over.

  • Uphill

    Every Non who was with a true BPD has (essentially) the same story. The details are so varied, the substance so strikingly similar. Yep, we get over it, and I never thought i’d be satisfied to say it, but it’s an achievement, a good step toward higher independence, to live through the mind***k, and come out far on the other end, after hurt, then confusion then anger, and just say. “Well, that’s how it happened; whatever.”

  • Uphill

    This is way late, I’m sure you’ll never see it, but others will: I identify with that element of being confused as to how you could be so drawn- on deep, very meaningful levels to someone who really just isn’t there for you…if they’re really THERE at all, even unto themselves. Yet they can have this very real gravity. I don’t dismiss it. I believe it’s real and quite meaningful , when they may have been some sort of archetype to the non.
    By that I mean, were they NOT borderline, they might be the “perfect” match…or as close as one is likely to ever come. I believe, not based on any faith, belief in fate or other such delusion, but just purely practical reason, that hey HAVE these great qualities for the non lover in these cases…I mean it has occurred to me that once in a great while, we may encounter someone whom our genes, our DNA, wants us to be with, to experience, to bond with…to mate with. We’re terribly attracted to someone and bond so deeply, because our genes are telling us this is a good union for offspring. I believe it’s just our DNA doing it’s job to further the species, in short. We can frame it many ways in our minds and emotions, or God forbid, hehe- in some ridiculous mystic or religious terms, but it’s simple, real, important biology. It definitely involves traits our DNA finds attractive, whatever they may be.v
    I believe that probably a lot of us never even experience such a lobe; we never meet such a person, or we may meet a few, but they are not available, or are not interested in us. Sometimes we really hook up with one of the great ones, and they sometimes ALSO turn out to be terribly messed up, as in having BPD.
    The very, very good, the very meaningful, the irresistible, the highest desires are found in these people, along with the VERY worst. It’s just circumstance. Not fate, not in the non’s secret wishes to repair relations with mommy & daddy or any of that bullshit…that’s one of the vague, all-purpose sham explanations that keep people readin-orpaying to go to therapy. It’s snake oil.
    This shit can, and DOES just…happen. That’s one reason it’s such a mind-***k. But both the good and the bad are quite real. The amalgam, however, the total person, still amounts to a useless, destructive, harmful person who isn’t a partner but a predator at heart. For me (FWIW), that’s the take-home lesson, three years out. I’m open to changing opinions as my perceptions change, but I’m not expecting much!

  • Uphill

    It takes time, just like a bunch of broken bones and torn tendons. It heals. Ha! Such a victory to say that and mean it, to be far beyond the mystery, the terrible loss, the horrible anxiety, the feeling of the loss of center. Even if I NEVER meet “the ONE” again, and decide to go it lone because I can’t settle, it’s better than continuing my six year hell would have been. You’ll get there, too, and who knows what else. Funny, and I MEAN THIS! A part of you should begin, in the back of your mind and heart, to stop worrying about the terrible fix you’re in, and start being cognizant of the trouble you might get into later with someone else! Perhaps a bit of gallows humor there, but you’ll get what I mean. :) Anyway, time alone will indeed heal you as you slowly learn to let go in your own way, and the obsessions with making it all seem to make sense, fade away, and you just give in to the clusterfuck of it all, then it really falls away.
    I don’t know why, but for some reason, now about 2.5-3 yrs. out, I’m having A LOT of dreams about my borderline ex. I really want to get close to her in those dreams, physically, emotionally…I want to get her back (in dreamland, that is). Usually the emotional content isn’t very high…but the themes are clear enough. I’m simply acting out in my subconscious, what I still feel in my head: I MISS HER AWESOME QUALITIES, big time. The good ones, that is. And that’s natural, as I’ve not found anyone to rival her. But though sad or angering or whatever, it’s just a natural fact. I keep myself healthy over it all by separating the great qualities from the feral two year old she also is, and by remembering the intense damage that two year-old did to me, and probably will do to every man she ever gets close to.

  • Stitches Baglady

    Alright, I know I’m going to be one of a very small number of people to make a logical, level-headed, educational comment (funny because I do have a vagina and was diagnosed with BPD), but there is a book that really changed my life called the Borderline Personality Disorder Survival Guide that anyone who has bpd or loves someone with bpd should read (though I can’t imagine the author and his little followers actually LOVING anyone ever). It helped me (and still does) to learn about my illness, how to cope, and has been a huge part of recovery/therapy.
    …or you can just keep saying shitty, ableist garbage to further dumb down the masses. You can help make changes for the better, or continue to oppress and dehumanize disabled people. Your choice, but I know most commenters here will make the wrong one, sadly, because they are as intellectually lazy as the person who wrote the article. Good thing there are bigger hate groups to deal with and nobody takes your stupid asses seriously. 😀

    • Frodo

      Why should any healthy person not suffering from Co Dependance want to deal with a person with a Cluster B Personality Disorder?

      • Arcane

        Because we are deserving of love?

        • Frodo

          Nobody deserves love or sex or conversation or association.

          • Jacob Shaftoe

            No, even you deserve love.

    • Frodo

      Paul was not oppressing persons with BPD or advocating oppression.
      what he said was get away from them and and avoid them.Especially under romantic circumstances.

      • Jacob Shaftoe

        That, and drive at least one 17yo boy to a suicide attempt. No biggy…

      • Bill De Laat

        I have a different point of view. The article may include some cursory facts but it comes across as sanctimonious and ass-holey.
        Duh right back at you.

        • driversuz

          You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (trolling). [Ref: 2932]

          Additional remarks:


          • Doug Martinez

            Why does this ban anyone who disagrees with her (insane) opinion? And call them names? What does “seagull” even MEAN? This whole page seems like some kind of spider web to catch the unwary in a web…for some kind of black widow to pounce on them.

    • driversuz

      Wow, that book must be very helpful. You actually managed to string together ONE whole sentence in that diatribe, that didn’t insult the people you obviously consider your inferiors.

      • Bill De Laat

        Baglady probably was a bit inflammatory with the comment but it was no more inflammatory than the article in question. And then your comment was an inflammatory reaction to the inflammatory reaction. I see nobody can take the moral high ground here so you should all calm down and stop being so BPD about the situation :-)

        • Doug Martinez

          This “driversuz” person seems pretty unhinged and unstable. Seems the entire article, aside from being one big ridiculously absurd and simplistic example of SPLITTING (major BPD symptom) is, well, profoundly indicative of a sufferer of BPD. Very sad really.

    • Object

      “The borderline patient is a therapist’s nightmare… because borderlines never really get better. The best you can do is help them coast, without getting sucked into their pathology. At first glance, they look normal, sometimes even supernormal, holding down high-pressure jobs and excelling. But they walk a constant tightrope between madness and sanity, unable to form relationships, incapable of achieving insight, never free from a deep, corroding sense of worthlessness and rage that spills over, inevitably, into self-destruction. They’re the chronically depressed, the determinedly addictive, the compulsively divorced, living from one emotional disaster to the next. Bed-hoppers, stomach pumpers, freeway jumpers, and sad-eyed bench sitters with arms stitched up like footballs and psychic wounds that can never be sutured. Their egos are as fragile as spun sugar, like a jigsaw puzzle with crucial pieces missing. They play roles with alacrity, excel at being anyone but themselves, crave intimacy but repel it when they find it. Some of them gravitate towards stage or screen; others do their acting in more subtle ways.

      No one knows how or why a borderline is a borderline. The Freudians claim it’s due to emotional deprivation during the first two years of life; the biochemical engineers blame faulty wiring. Neither school claims to be able to help them much.

      Borderlines go from therapist to therapist, hoping to fine a magic bullet for their crushing feelings of emptiness. They turn to chemical bullets, gobble tranquilizers and antidepressants, alcohol and cocaine. Embrace gurus and heaven-hucksters, any charismatic creep promising a quick fix of the pain. And they end up taking temporary vacations in psychiatric wards and prison cells, emerge looking good, raising everyone’s hopes. Until the next letdown, real or imagined, the next excursion into self-damage.

      What they don’t do is change.”

      • Arcane

        Thanks for giving me hope Object

      • Jacob Shaftoe

        Or get DBT, the doubleblind proven therapy that works, is scientifically valid, proven so often it’s results are shown through longitudinal studies, thus giving BPD a measurable halflife of 8 hears at the maximum. So, from incurable illness to absolutely cured in (in the worst, most intense and intractable of cases) 16 years….

        Catch up mate. Freud thought Cocaine was tops and kissing schoolgirls with Daddy issues was kosher. The guy was a nut, and anyone referencing his viewpoint in order to lend credibility to their argument just lost any they might have had.

        So, google DBT, find out how wrong you are, and think about how you got hurt, made some bad judgments about what that meant, judged people horribly because of it, overreacted, said cruel things in public… Then think about where these behaviors fit in with BPD…

        BPD is just evolutionary responses taken to the extreme, due to extremes in both nature and nurture. Since I got better, all I see around me are people with one, two, maybe even three BPD traits who’re “sane”. All of them represented in the “sane” community, every last one. It’s why you need 5 to qualify.

        Now I have 2, and have a map to help me step away from those last two. So, I’m cured, probably as sane as you, possibly even less Borderline than you, and aiming for less still.

        So much for the incurable part. Maybe you could use some DBT to help you to be less of the other one? 😉

    • Grambini

      God takes your BPD actions seriously and your lame excuses will not save your ASS from eternal HELL when you MEET your MAKER. How is that for your stupid ASS. :d

  • Jacob Shaftoe

    Well, maybe you need to find someone who knows something about treatment of BPD, and talk to them. Considering the person who diagnosed me tried to put me through a specially designed group therapy on her own, I’ve discovered that most psychologists stick to what they know, and those that don’t know DBT have read a page in a book (The DSM IV or V) that is widely discredited and written/edited by those with no clinical experience with DBT and BPD.

    However, I’d also state that I can understand how it feels. To be with an untreated BPD person in a relationship is truly horrific, and you have my sympathies and empathy.

    Still, I got the right treatment, am doing better, hurt very few people indeed, no longer behave in ways that would be identified as Borderline, and have lived in a loving and stable relationship, in which the only times I ever raise my voice is to yell at computer games (mostly because they cheat :p).

    But, chances are, with psych professionals telling her she’ll always be this way, what motivation would she ever have to change?

  • Jenn Walters

    God this article is terrible. Way to make a group of people who already
    fear abandonment and feel unlovable feel even worse about themselves. To
    suggest that we like it? Two nights ago I tried to kill myself because I
    felt it would make the lives of those I love easier. This stemmed from
    an anger outburst, and let me assure you, I not only did not enjoy it,
    but I couldn’t control it. Did I realize what I was doing? Yes. But the
    entire time I kept thinking, “Why are you doing this? You need to stop.”
    and I COULDN’T. That is a terrifying feeling and certainly not one I’d
    like to feel ever again.
    I was dx’d as BPD at 15. In the past 17
    years I have built up some wonderful coping mechanisms and 90% of the
    time I am a very pleasant and even person. Unfortunately I spent 12
    years of that in an abusive relationship (not this made up abuse you
    suggest, a legitimate one that included me sporting a black eye to my father’s memorial) and that undid a
    lot of the hard work I’ve done. The insecurities that are part of my
    medical diagnosis are now magnified but, you know what? I’m fighting
    EVERY DAY to learn to cope with those insecurities so that I don’t take
    them out on others. Because I DON’T want to feel like this forever and I
    certainly DON’T want to hurt those who love me.
    So perhaps instead
    of giving a blanket “run from those with BPD” you could suggest loving
    them as any other person you’d love with a medical condition and helping
    them navigate what they’re going through, if they’re trying to improve.
    Certainly if they’re hell bent on self-destruction, there’s little
    reason to stick around, but this blanket statement of yours is not only
    hurtful, but untrue. I am not making myself out to be a victim, but I am
    certainly also not a monster. To tell people with BPD they will not get
    better is not only untrue, but reckless.

    • Luci Bloom

      Don’t give this guy your energy. He’s MRA for god sake. Their whole modus operandi is to dismiss and twist all the facts about anything to do with women and their issues around to make us out to all be assholes…probably as a defense to their own assholism and their unwillingness to look at how much chaos and destruction THEY bring to human relationships with women.

      He doesn’t know squat about the disorder…he’s just giving his opinion. Opinion isn’t fact, but don’t tell mr know it all that.

    • Bill De Laat

      Yeah I am really surprised by this article too. The author of the article has shown it only in the most negative light possible. I am sure there are many stories of people hurt by partners with BPD and there are also BPD sufferers who have been hurt by others too and as you know the hurt for a BPD person is magnified. BPD is not synonymous with asshole. BPD sufferers can also become targets for real severe assholes further reinforcing the condition. What a condescending, self righteous article.

    • Burford TJustice

      @ Jenn – Boo Fuggin Hoo. As always its about you you you. One thing I’ve learned about BPD from my experiences with women…you can’t say “J.” What does that mean? Here, let me sing it to you…

      A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, I, I, me, me me. I I I…me me me…

    • Michelle

      If you feel remorse for your actions or have ever been able to admit you were wrong this article does not apply to you. Perhaps you have been misdiagnosed? A very good friend of mine was called Schizophrenic for 20 years only to find he’s bipolar. Whoops -.-
      You are not a soulless monster.

  • driversuz

    You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (trolling and general contempt for the work AVfM does). [Ref: 2491]

  • driversuz

    Who is “he?”

    • Arcane


  • Arcane

    “dangerous asshole that should be avoided like the plague.”

    I’ve experienced being treated like this a lot, especially when being “treated”. Did it help me? No. Did it anger me even more and make matters worse? Yes.

    You’re the asshole. Seriously, reading this makes me question myself as to if you are a troll or extremely moronic. You don’t have to run away from us and treat us like the plague, I’m so tired of people acting like that towards me, it makes me feel worse than I already do.

    • driversuz

      You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (trolling). [Ref: 2553]

    • Burford TJustice

      Well people such as yourself should never enter into relationship. All you do is sabotage them because you have no fuggin idea what “normal” is. Never have, never will. Just ruin your own life and leave others alone. He’s absolutely correct btw, you just don’t want to hear it (like always).

  • Jacob Shaftoe

    Hi Anon, glad to see you’re quoting the Freudian idea of incurable BPD. Great, logical and rational position. Might wanna look into other things Freud was sure of, like Cocaine being a wonderdrug, or being convinced he could talk people out of schizophrenia.

    Oh, and do some legwork, look up DBT, or Dialectical Behavior Therapy, the double-blind proven gold standard treatment for BPD. This treatment has me off welfare, living a full life with a job, a girlfriend and a small child I’ve yet to hurt, let down or alienate, no drug abuse, no promiscuity, and above all, no hate for that which I don’t understand.

    Which isn’t to say I don’t understand you, or the others venting rage and pain, all the while judging and dehumanising those who hurt you. That’s actually a pretty normal trauma response for humans. Normal in this case < helpful or effective. Also, if you want to make a point about something, it'd help to be… Accurate.

    BPD can be "cured" and is, regularly, across the globe. Individual therapists make the mistake of offering non-DBT therapies, which are known to fail and fail hard. That, or they try and put someone through a therapy designed for a team, thinking somehow those other people aren't necessary. What is saddest is that, after doing that and failing to help, and doing more harm to boot, they then blame the patient. Actually, no. Sadder still is there's always a trauma victim around to listen.

  • Jacob Shaftoe

    Been there, as the “sane” one in the relationship, even though I had (note the past tense?) BPD… And as for Clinical Psychologists, they have a treatment, if they’d but apply it properly, they’d have no issues. Most around missed DBT in school, and know a complex, highly involved therapy via a page or two in the DSM IV. So, yeah, it’s hard to do, in the same way driving with instructions you got from a cereal box would be.

    Trick is, actually learn to drive and it’s pretty easy. The facilitator and one-on-one therapist I had (who took someone like me with “Severe” BPD from whackjob to sane) wasn’t even a friggin Clinical Psychologist, but a social worker.

    If it’s that freakin’ hard, and I was such an extreme case (and, in hindsight, I was…), then how is it someone that much less qualified could do so much more for me that any clinical psychologist beforehand?

    Shitballs, I was in therapy at 7, went to two special schools, got nothing. I’m sure the dogmatic “Only chicks get BPD” mantra Paul is happily spamming here helped greatly…

  • Jacob Shaftoe

    No, and no.

  • Jacob Shaftoe

    Other way around. BPD leads to Feminism, not the other way around… Unless…

    I can see circumstances wherein someone who had all the precursors for BPD but not having developed it, if they ended up in “Gender Studies”, well, it’d be forcing a strong, rigid, contradictory self image of “Strong Woman” and “Constantly oppressed by men who wish violence upon you”, combined with all the trauma that sets up…

    Yeah, I could see it happening, but mostly because I think BPD in a few smart, wordy women is what gave us Feminism in the first place.

    So, the more empathy we have for BPD, the less we claim a curable disease is incurable, the more they get therapy early, before University, the less Feminists you end up with.

    I know Feminists who’re getting through BPD, but still clinging to Feminism, but of all those I did therapy with, those who got DBT prior to Feminism pretty much saw it for what it was…

  • Jacob Shaftoe

    I was, as was the 17yo guy I was trying to get into DBT (the therapy that works, google it). Unfortunately he came across this article, and now he’s in hospital after trying to kill himself. Paul Elam talks all kinds of shit about male suicide, while gendering and insulting an illness that those who work regularly (and well) with it estimate as being entirely 50/50 gender wise. An illness with the highest rate of suicidal success of all mental illnesses.

    Enjoy working out how that’s not a bad thing, because some men had bad relationships with people who weren’t receiving DBT. Not one mention in here, though Dr T brings it up at some point. Like all psychologists who haven’t trained in DBT, she’s as useless and clueless as every therapist I had before DBT. Useless, clueless, and fucking dangerous.

  • Josh

    Spot on. Devilish is the right word and demonized as well. Thats what I tried for 10 years. As you say they completely mess up ones mind and make you believe you are a loser. You really are because you lose everything, only its not your fault and not due to lack of good will.

  • Josh

    Hi, when I read your words I feel sympathy for you. I don’t know how you are towards others. I know your story. If you were someone hurting others and then not caring or not even recalling because something shuts that off from your conscience then I’d say its like a disease, despite of your evil doings. But then again all evil are sick because in some way they manage to just ignore their doings. If someone does bad and doesn’t care then we usually considers that to be evil.

    What if that evilness does not come from the person itself? What if that is some spiritual thing? Some power using that person and doing harm to her/him or make her do harm to others. Then we would go into the more religious area right. I don’t know if we can talk about those matters here but its a shame because its a basic area.

  • Josh

    Hi Grace Nottingham, when I read your words I feel sympathy for you. I don’t know how
    you are towards others. I know your story. I see that you are not
    wanting to inflict pain on others. Its bad enough that you do it to
    yourself. Just remember that YOU are the temple of our creator. Thats
    how important you are.

    If however you were someone hurting others
    and then not caring or not even recalling because something shuts that
    off from your conscience then I’d say its like a disease, despite of
    your evil doings. But then again all evil are sick because in some way
    they manage to just ignore their doings (actually its like the sound
    reasoning has gone and has been substituted for some evil programs such
    as people in war who kill thinking its good).

    If someone does bad
    and doesn’t care then we usually consider that to be evil. Eckhart TOlle
    explains it well as being the ego that causes us to suffer as well as
    doing evil.

    What if that evilness does not come from the person
    itself? What if that is some spiritual thing? Some power using that
    person and doing harm to her/him or make her do harm to others. Then we
    would go into the more religious area right. I don’t know if we can talk
    about those matters here but its a shame because its a basic area.

    I am well aware about the physical changes in the shape of hormones or
    neural transmitters. But what came first the hen or the egg? THe ever
    reoccuring question right :)

    I understand we should not judge people who has some personality disorder because its not their fault no matter what harm they have done. I tried to cure my ex wife because I love her. I was a disaster doing it all wrong because I am no machine and I could not control my feelings. I had a reaction to her torture of me. She was very sadistic and I think the word would be psycopathic.

    I am not a perfect human and have not been capable of curing her despite it seemed so because she became very different and seemed to really want to change and said “I am not like before right” (indeed extraordinary but perhaps either a lie to herself and me to make me shut up.)

    I became the troublemaker and the one messing up things but I believe its due to my traumas from her and also my childhood which was awakened by her doings. I had the best intentions and read books to do right and even went to counseling like her for years on my initiative (in order to show my good will and make her come back. I just did everything like prisoners in some shit country who admit something they didn’t do).

    I believe there is a big distinction between what is called the malignant ones (psycopaths) and the non malignant ones.

    Hey I might even be a borderline myself because I made a test of myself after I was left for the xst time actually after divorcing. I scored as borderline. However when I answered the test as I would have before meeting my wife then I would come in negative. I think that I have PTSD and that is similar to Borderline. I think that is why I showed positive. But however I was depressed since I was 10-11 years old and think its some biochemical disorder or vitamin deficiency that is genetic.

    So I felt comfortable drinking. I however soon noticed I could not drink so I stayed away from alcohol as much as possible. I don’t even have the need to drink as others when partying. I feel fine
    without. I have drunk due to my ex wife. Thats the truth. I simply was so sad that I could not find any reason to be happy. Maybe I was too addicted to the illusion of her as my saviour. Its possible. I have
    sworn I don’t want to be dependent on anyone anymore ever. Except my small son. We really can not be without each other, no matter what that messed up system doing the calls of his mother tries to fool one to believe.

    • punk

      Josh I am so sorry to read your story.

  • Lisa

    There are so many things that’s just not true in this article. Where did you get all of this from? Really?

    Sufferers DO get better. Haven’t you read any research? I would recommend you to do so. Then you could get som facts straight, rewrite this article with something else than thoughts of your own imagination instead of spreading lies about an allready heavilly stigmatized illness.

  • Bill De Laat

    I can understand you feeling that way and it would be hard to sympathise with anyone who claims to have BPD. 10% of BPD sufferers are usually successful in suicide and that is usually because they can’t cope with their condition.
    I am a male BPD and had childhood abuse and relationship abuse including physical assault by my ex. I am no way perfect in any sense and have been an asshole but BPD can negatively affect the person with it more than others.

    I am not discounting your experience whatsoever and I have no doubt there are some horrendous BPD people inflicting damage on others and also there is variations within the disorder.

    All the best and peace to you.

  • Guest

    Amen Brother

  • shemata92 .

    Lol you bash the dude whenhes telling the truth. You have to experience it yourself to know what hes talking about. Even the chronic “helper” (hes an asshat too I know him all to well) cant help her, she cant undergo any personal developement EVER she has no interests, no hobbies, no opinion, no dreams, no plans, no nothing (other than the opinion that everything is everyone elses fault). SHE IS NOTHING, she is not a human being and can never become one because she can’t accept the fact HER LIFE IS HER RESPONSIBILITY. She will blame using SICK LOGIC everything and everyone around her for the miserable state shes in to victimise herself so that her BEING NOTHING is excused.

    And society buys into that crap, if it didnt, she would come up with other crap society buys. Sure she brought me wisdom unparalleled by anything that ever happened to me, but that’s becose, after 3 years of hell I had the balls to run away. Yes it is BALLS to run away from someone like that. It was the first mature and responsible act I ever did. Thank God there was wine to help me. In Vino Veritas.

    Starting a relationship with her is my fault though, and I accept it. This is the only thing I REALLY blame my self for – that my self respect was so low I allowed that to happen. Because this is the only thing I cant blame her for – she can take no responsibility. So its my fault. But what I said about her is 100 % true.

    Had it gone the way of us having children… God… I imagine the state of my mother and father are in or worse.


  • Guest

    Also, these are people who feel the need to scratch themselves just so that they can believe they EXIST and are not DISSOLVING IN SPACE.

    When she looks in the mirror she always finds a non-existent zit so she can excuse mutilating her face.

    When you snap your fingers anywhere near her she will get frightened as if a beast just attacked her. Its the only time she returns to reality. Partially. And for a split second. This comes from the fact that she cant realise anything thats out of the reach of her senses is non-existent. 0 abstract thinking.

    Just some simple behaviour, I really dont wanna start on the mind games and guilt trips couse that will take a whole book.

    Just.. the devil in a human skin…

  • shemata92 .

    Also, these are people who feel the need to scratch themselves just so that they can believe they EXIST and are not DISSOLVING IN SPACE.

    When she looks in the mirror she always finds a non-existent zit so she can excuse mutilating her face.

    When you snap your fingers anywhere near her she will get frightened as if a beast just attacked her. Its the only time she returns to reality. Partially. And for a split second. This comes from the fact that she cant realise anything thats out of the reach of her senses ACTUALLY EXISTS. 0 abstract thinking. By the time I realised Im capable of abstract thinking I saw that as THE ESCAPE and drowned myself in sick abstractions. THAT IS MY PROBLEM. THAT IS MY MASK. I will change that mask slowly now so its healthy for me and those around me. I know I can never develop the same way the 5 year old child develops its personality, but I WILL DEVELOP.

    She can’t do that. She never even had the chance that abstract thinking gave me. She is much like the things that preceded humans in evolution I think. Look at how cats behave in a human environment. They train their human to feed them and open doors and clean their shit by being annoying asshats. Same as little childre. But CUTE annoying asses. Thats why we cant be mad at them. She is the same. SHE IS NOT HUMAN.

    Thats just some simple but peculliar behaviours, I really dont wanna start on the mind games and guilt trips couse that will take a whole book.

    Just.. the devil in a human skin…

    • Paul Lewis

      Wow. This article…the SPLITTING…the underlying current of
      rage…the manipulative language…it seems to indicate an almost
      “bottomless capacity for vengeance”…it even seems like the author is
      trying ” to enlist action from others that will further their personal
      objectives for revenge or retaliation”…

      BPD, comorbid with lots of other disorders and their symptoms, for example, psychological projection.

      I predict there are a lot of people saying much the same in the comments,
      and I suspect that the author, if he replies to enough of them, seeks
      to “justify and rationalize any abusive behavior”, makes “repetitive
      demands that others sympathize with him” even as he causes destruction
      in the lives of innocents with his dangerous, asshole-ish behavior.

      • driversuz

        You’re too lazy to read the comments and find out? Get lost, Seagull.

        • Doug Martinez

          I just read ALL the comments. Paul was right about that too. Just saying!

        • Doug Martinez

          p.s. funny how YOUR comments can be upvoted but not DOWN voted even when the down voter is logged in. Hypersensitive? Manipulative?

          • driversuz

            Nobody’s downvotes show on anybody’s comments. But feel free to flag away!

          • driversuz

            You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (trolling). [Ref: 3726]

            Additional remarks:

            Oh look, another seagull, flying in to shit on the picnic and contribute nothing else.

          • driversuz

            You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy. [Ref: 3728]

            Additional remarks:

            Bye, Paul.

          • driversuz

            Deleted for ban evasion, per policy.

      • driversuz

        You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (general attack and trolling). [Ref: 3378]

        Additional remarks:


        • Doug Martinez

          Paul Lewis was SPOT.ON. And you sound very angry not just in your reply to him but others as well. Angry, vindictive…even a little unstable. More symptoms of BPD.

  • Burford TJustice

    BPD people can be highly empathetic – Ah hem…BULL SHIT! I had a pattern of dating them and even marrying one (my ex thank god). They only give a rats ass when you’re about to leave them. They only care about others when it benefits them. They never “get better” because they don’t want to. He’s absolutely correct…the best thing you can do to a BPD woman is ignore her. She’ll move onto the next target rather quickly because he’ll listen to her “Wounded bird” song.

  • Burford TJustice

    LMAO. Good one “anon.” Yes, do the world a favor and kill yourself.

    • driversuz

      You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (trolling). [Ref: 3435]

      • Doug Martinez

        So any opinion or even simple statement that you dislike is “trolling”? Seems to me YOUR comments are SPLITTING. BPD symptom, big time.

  • punk

    I was with a BPD girl for 4 years, she made my life hell. I almost killed myself in depression. what Dr. Paul elam is saying, I agree with him completely. and in no way can anybody take away from me what I experienced. she put me through hell and I don’t ever want her to be back. I know what I went through and I wont buy any excuse from anyone for attempts to destroy my sanity.

  • Nightshift

    Agree 100% Bill.

  • Nightshift

    “In short, they [all borderlines] have an intractable condition that is impervious to treatment of any kind” ? Wow, paint with broad brush much, Mr Elam? My, do let the BPD witch hunt commence. Paul has declared war on the evil borderline menace, because they’re all “dangerous”, and will “destroy everything you have”, and not one single person on earth (or just the females?) with this painful disorder, can ever be treated or made well, or maintain a healthy loving relationship, in Paul’s expert opinion. I have to tell you, as an AVFM fan, I’m truly disappointed by what I’ve just read. So much outdated (mis)information and offensive generalization. And the way you present yourself as an indisputable know-it-all expert on the subject, Paul… hrmm. Which Cluster B disorder does that remind me of? Oh right, the one that starts with an N. Lmao,

    • driversuz

      An “AVfM fan” for how long? A couple of hours? Get lost troll.

      • Daniel Ruben

        You people are so well how do I put it, “tough” and “hardline”. I’m impressed :) I think it was Dr. Jacques Lacan who said it should never ever surprise the psychoanalyst that there are so very many unhappy people in this world.

    • driversuz

      You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (general attack and trolling). [Ref: 4445]

  • jonnymoori

    This article, is right on the money, just wish I had seen it 20 years ago, rather than lived through the madness of marriage to someone like that and the inevitable divorce. Was hell from beginning to end. Also they have a book out ! Buy it and save yourselves. Im serious.

  • jonnymoori

    So sorry man, your probably in jail by now. I Hope to God you get through this. I really do. I’ll say a prayer for you man. Don’t know what else I can do.

  • AlertTaxpayer

    dialectical behavior therapy

  • Michelle

    This is absolutely true. This is not an “anti-woman” piece. It’s the simple truth that BPD is a label made up to justify the destructive selfishness of a certain kind of woman. I get a little sick calling them women because they are more like tornadoes in society who damage, damage, damage. They ruthlessly take whatever they want. Go ahead and tell one of them a story from your life… something that changed you as a human being. Watch as IT turns around and with tears in its eyes tells your story as if the same thing happened to it.
    I only wish I never met her. If she were to simply drop dead, and all her kind went with her, the world would be a far safer place.
    They don’t deserve love or pity or help or a special snowflake diagnosis. They deserve to be placed on an island far away from the rest of us with food and basic items needed for life dropped in from airplanes, with no means to communicate with any of the rest of us. I say this because rounding them up and killing them would strike people as too harsh, assuming they’ve never been threatened, abused, and stolen from by one of these evil creatures.

    • Nirishia Castellano

      You are all right. Unless we get help, we are everthing you say we are, unfortunately.

  • Did-someone-say-icecream

    Those people with BPD who are constantly abusing others, please stop trying to seek attention and please stop throwing mugs at your friend/best friend/family/ex/boyfriend.

    It makes life way harder for the rest of us who are not classic borderlines. I am a quiet borderline and I’m sick of what you classic borderlines do to make everyone else hate us. Once, I trusted a friend enough to tell her that I was a borderline, and she ran away, because she had bad experiences with another abusive friend.

    It might sound harsh, but seriously, you need to learn that being aggressive and needy doesn’t solve any problems. I can understand that you want to be accepted, but making suicide threats and making others care for you out of guilt and empathy is not acceptable. People call you selfish because you manipulate and lie to “not feel alone”.

    What you need is to not flip out at the other person, or seek attention. Most of the time, men are deeply in love with you, until you get angry at them and ruin their lives. Just don’t do anything crazy and don’t be needy. Remind yourself that just because a friend doesn’t call back immediately it doesn’t mean she’s going to ditch you. Even if she does ditch you, you can eventually go and find new friends.

    And if you feel lonely? Be happy and tell yourself to cut the crap. Are you seriously gonna sit and self-destruct your entire life? For once ask yourself why people don’t like you, and what you’ve done wrong instead of blaming everyone else.

    I’m not even mad at the writer of this piece. To you wonderful, normal, healthy people, I have no grudge against you for saying what you say in the comments. I can understand the pain you went through and the fact that none of it was your fault.

    To my fellow BPD, I’m not telling you to hate yourself, but I’m saying that instead of raging and blaming the other person in the relationship, you should reflect on how others feel. Also know that throwing mugs at the opposition does not solve anything. If you feel lonely, just tell yourself that its a chronic feeling and remind yourself that your brain works differently from other people.

  • Grambini

    It’s Sick Assholes without a Spine like yourself that need to be Put away!!! Just keep on thinking like you are and hopefully you will end up Just like him. But where your going will be alot HOTTER!!!

    • driversuz

      Strike 1: This is a friendly warning that you may need to re-read our Comment Policy, in particular the bits about general attack and general insult (particularly with respect to staff and authors). [Ref: 5519]

      Additional remarks:

      Newbie not off to an auspicious start.

    • driversuz

      One of the reasons we haven’t closed comments on this article, is the opportunity to watch Crazy being crazy. Of course Crazy is usually banned in short order.

      Are you part of the audience or part of the cast?

  • Maurits

    This hits home for me. I have met this woman, I have lived with this woman. And she brought hell on my life, destroying everything in me, making me search for scraps of my old self in order to stay alive. After I FINALLY managed to leave (‘escape’) I was diagnosed with “Post Traumatic Disorder” (which I learned is very common among people who were involved with BPD partners). This article is so much, so, so, SO MUCH on the money it gives me goosebumps. I wish I could have grasped this more clearly before everything went south. I’m talking about emotional, physical, psychological, material damage. It’s been 3 years now and I sincerely hope that demon of a woman burns in hell when she dies.

  • Erin Maree

    It really doesn’t seem worthwhile pointing out to you how wholly wrong and broad much of this is. Many BPDs are very aware of the affect they have on others and actually consciously shun romantic relationships and friendships to try and contain the damage. The thing I wanted to say was regarding the comments about organic brain chemistry. Science and much study now shows that individuals with BPD have an almost inactive prefrontal cortex (the executive functioning and ‘judgement’ centre) and a significantly smaller amygdala (the “survival” or “impulse control”) function centre. Does that register on your radar at all? You seem to have some tunnel vision.

    • Bryan Scandrett

      So we should just make excuses for them and ignore the lives they destroy? Which is what is happening.
      Given the plasticity of the brain, an inactive prefrontal cortex isn’t a road block to using it once in a while. And the amygdala is NOT your impulse control. It controls the hijacking of impulse control.

      It shuts down the prefrontal lobe whose job it is, in sane people anyway, to wrest control back and restart the thinking process.
      Why is it you have no compassion for the victims of BPD’s?

      • driversuz

        Because she’s most likely a BPD attention whore. Bet now she goes on a long convoluted rant that can be summed up in two words: Me First.

      • Erin Maree

        Where did I say I have no compassion? I simply pointed out that a broad-brushed statement suggesting that all BPDs set out to destroy lives is incorrect and there is no way you could possibly know unless you are either BPD, a psychiatrist or psychic. Of course BPD people are responsible for their actions toward others. Of course, if they are a hot mess they should not be in a relationship. Of course, people they lash out at suffer very real consequences. What I am pointing out is that your “no science, just excuses” tack is actually, factually incorrect. In biological terms. If you want to be a MRA (lolololololololol) I suggest you learn how to field arguments on an adult level. With facts, and with evidence. The irony here is that I see one poster after another lashing out in all directions with highly emotive statements and name-calling where the supposed “crazy bitches” a lot of them with BPD have been able to hit your arguments out of the park. In an entirely rational way. Call me an attention whore and self-centred all you want but it doesn’t give you a cogent argument or a leg to stand on.

        • driversuz

          You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (trolling and general contempt for the work AVfM does). [Ref: 5660]

  • Average Man

    You really have to experience this for yourself to be able to see that the article is exactly right. As a man, for your own sake, you absolutely need to know that there are some women out there that match the description outlined in the article perfectly.

    However I would highly recommend that you don’t put yourself in circumstances to experience this for yourself. You will pay very dearly for your increased awareness. If you venture too deeply into such a relationship, you will find that the relationship will end (must end) and recovery of what will have been taken from you will probably take years. The increased awareness you will gain (though a very valuable and hard life lesson), is at such high cost that it is probably not worth it given we only have so much life.

    After some years have past since I was so involved, my final assessment is that the mental, emotional, physical, and financial energy spent was so great that I am just thankful that I managed to come out relatively together (with healthy identity still intact but this was hit so hard that it has taken alot of time to put the bitterness, anxiety and confused state behind me). At the time I told myself that the high cost might be worth it because my women friend was benefiting from what otherwise looked like would turn out to be ultimate demise. But in retrospect I agree with Paul Elam – there was no real change there, never was before me and never will be after me either. Very sad but true.

    There is no making any sense of this. So – if you weigh the cost vs. the benefits, you must realize there won’t ever be any real benefit for your friend. Your effort ends up just being wasted on a bizarre ruse whereby you help the other party continue to avoid their real development work, which alas will never come, as such a life appears to be consumed from start to finish on such avoidance and nothing more, despite the help and interest of you or anyone else. So the cost vs. the benefit of entering deeply into such a relationship is weighed upon only one benefit, and that it what hard lessons you yourself take away. And when you weigh the cost of lost opptunities one could have alternatively used one’s various resources on, this cost inevitably ends up being so high that it is just not worth the greater awareness achieved via the hard life lesson.

    Put simple – life is too short for so much of it to be wasted on somebody so trivial (though perhaps she may not seem to be trivial at the time when you have already become too involved, from a birdseye view, the word “trivial” does best describe the character of such a person).

  • Boom Jinx

    ​​I hit 40 last year and was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder this year, which means I didn’t even know what the hell was wrong with me until I was half-way through life. To say I’ve spent my life crying a lot is an understatement, and I have a habit of sabotaging the fuck out of a life most people would dream of. According to you, this is a conscious choice which makes me pretty fucking stupid. I’ve even reached the point where I stopped dating women because I can’t live with the fact I hurt them, even if I don’t mean to. I see an animal in pain, I bleed from places I didn’t even know existed. Here’s the kicker: Everything I just wrote, according to you, falls under something jazzy like me manipulating whomever reads this to gain sympathy or whatever the fuck makes people like me so horrific. Run for your life, right? I die inside when I’m not a good father to my kids, not taking better care of myself is nonsensical at best, I try to compensate by being good to others, I’m in therapy (psychologists whom you say should avoid people like me altogether) in an attempt to be a better, more responsible, content person. All the stuff you wrote says there’s no hope for people like me. I’m a lost cause. How the hell do you think I would feel if I took your word for it?

    Has the thought occurred to you people might have a profound need to be “seen” or understood long before they take a ride down self-pity avenue, only to realize it’s more or less a dead end when you’re blessed with shit like BPD?

    Whether or not I’m delusional and everything you claim is 100% accurate, there’s a brutally cynical side to it, especially seeing as BPD makes someone absurdly sensitive and emotional. The way I see it is you’ve accumulated the worst of this “curse” without a fucking shred of genuine understanding of what it’s like to live it. You actually come across as someone who doesn’t give a shit, and googling your name seems to give that theory some merit.

    No matter how fucked up a person is, if they feel, they can hurt. Where pain comes from is not something you need to ID to empathize with; pain is a feeling all people can relate to, and it’s not something you wish upon a fellow human being if you have a vague concept of compassion. Speaking of compassion, aren’t sociopaths and psychopaths a little skinny in the empathy department?

    To summarize this by saying avoid people with BPD not only contradicts most ABC, How To Treat People With BPD For Dummies shit widely available online, but it reeks of something between indifference and cynicism, or perhaps someone who’s just been scarred dealing with it on a personal level. Not to mention you’re saying these people took some seriously wrong turns in life: https://www.bpdvideo.com/borderline-personality-disorder-information/experts-organizations

    What’s the purpose of what you wrote anyway? To warn others about “BPD monsters”? A lot of people aren’t even diagnosed, and people with Borderline Personality Disorder often seek out to get help because they’re in a lot of pain and can’t take care of themselves. Knowing how hard it is to treat this condition, reading this was both painful and infuriating. I feel sorry for anyone newly diagnosed with BPD reading this and taking it to heart. You’re not educating anyone, and where you see me as bad news, I see you as cold and heartless. I’m not a kid and was diagnosed half a year ago so I’m used to this shit, but at least now I know what I’m dealing with and understand why I’m such a mess. Imagine a young person googling this, trying understand what’s wrong with him/her. What message are you sending? You’re reminding people like me of the shit we have to live with while mixing it in with your narrow-minded, speculative, hurtful, insensitive bias, topped with a lovely apocalyptic twist.

    You have very strong opinions on free will. I wonder how you and Sam Harris would get along, and I’m sure you’d have no trouble convincing Marsha Linehan she’s been wasting most of her life on nonsense.


    Is whether or not alcoholism is a disease really relevant in this context? Alcoholism falls under a bigger problem, addiction/addictive personality, and that’s a little bit more juicy than trying to debunk the craving for one particular substance as an illness. Addiction has a parent, too. Reality escape isn’t rocket science, and if you use booze to avoid the man in the mirror, there’s plenty of room to label alcoholism a type of illness. Besides, this boils down to self-medicating, doesn’t it? I’m pretty sure you’re aware self-medicating is not exactly exclusive to Borderline Personality Disorder.

    • driversuz

      If you genuinely regret the harm you have caused others and if you are taking full responsibility for your actions, then you are the exception that proves the rule. Would you want to date a person who will MOST LIKELY hurt you the way you have hurt others? I believe you have been recently diagnosed and you didn’t know anything about BPD, because you clearly haven’t dealt with case after case after case of lives destroyed by people with this condition.

      Here’s some good news for you. If your disorder is mild enough that you are capable of feeling remorse, and are capable of controlling your own behavior, you can probably get through the rest of your life without telling anybody you have it.

      Either you’re so marginally Borderline that this article doesn’t apply to you, or you are here whoring for attention from a population that has suffered unimaginably at the hands of people just like you. Your self pity isn’t welcome here.

      • Boom Jinx

        If I was here for self-pity, wouldn’t your last sentence be redundant?

        • driversuz

          Do you have issues with reading comprehension?

          Never mind. Attention Whore – check.
          Bye now.

        • driversuz

          You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (trolling). [Ref: 5810]

          Additional remarks:

          BPD asshole on article about BPD assholes. Who knew?

  • Nat26

    You know, I’m a 30 year old BPD woman who was diagnosed 2 years ago. Until tonight I had no idea what it was like to be on the receiving end of a BPD’s abuse. I met a BPD woman online who I decided to befriend. She seemed so lovely and sweet and funny and I REALLY needed the comfort of talking to somebody with the same condition. We chatted for two days and got on like a house on fire, we even joked that we are one soul split in half and it felt like I had met my long lost twin. Literally within an hour this woman flipped the coin on me and threw me under the bus and started screaming at me telling me that I’m a negative influence in her life and then blocked me! I have been in tears all night due to severe shock and hurt feelings so I now understand what it feels like. Although having said that, I may be BPD but I don’t behave like THAT! She was a total whack job to be honest!

    I would like to state that from my personal side, I honestly do not do anything to deliberately hurt people, I am well aware that I have hurt many people in my life but I have never sat and premeditated anything, I act on complete impulse and feel genuine remorse for my actions, so much so to the point of wanting to take my own life many times for the pain and destruction I have caused. I have been on mood stabilizers and antipsychotics, I have admitted myself into a psychiatric hospital for two months, I have been in and out of therapy for a long time and nothing has helped me. I’m certainly not on here looking for attention because I realize that I’m on enemy territory and the last thing I will get here is sympathy but I do want to tell my story. I am in such despair over my life, it’s an absolute train wreck, I cannot find any direction career wise because my interests shift so rapidly, I cannot have a boyfriend because I’m totally unstable and I know it, my friends are exasperated with me. So basically I’m left with a pretty shitty lonely and depressing existence. Trust me, it’s NOT fun living with this and I have no idea what to do about it. Did I cause this? No I didnt, I’m a product of shitty genetics and a lousy upbringing…. But I’m here now, to no fault of my own.
    I’m sorry to anyone who has been harmed as a result of this evil disorder, I truly am… I can’t speak for every BPD patient but I certainly don’t mean to be such a disaster! I am not JUST BPD, I am compassionate to other people and Animals, I am funny and quick witted, I am smart, im generous, I’m creative… There is a very likable person underneath my condition and it’s a damn shame that I was tarnished by this CREATURE eating away at my life. I would give ANYTHING to not be THIS!
    Please do not tar us all with the same brush though because I think sometimes horrible people have BPD so their awfulness is just exacerbated by the condition…. then you also get NICE people who have this condition and genuinely do feel bad about it and don’t actually enjoy it. It’s a curse for some of us.

  • driversuz

    You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (trolling). [Ref: 4451]

    Additional remarks: