A Letter to Traditional Women Revisited

My recent “Letter to Traditional Women,” provoked a lot of visits, commentary and dissent yesterday. Funny how that happens when you get in peoples faces and drop a few F-bombs on their sacred cows.

Entrails are still hitting the ground.

But now that I have succeeded in provoking people; even offending a couple of redbots with my “tone” (oh, gasp), it is a good time to offer what I think is instructive about this particular situation.

The real point here (because princess certainly isn’t the point) is that our struggle is still as much internal and personal as it is social and political.

I am pretty sure I read a comment from zed over at TS not too long ago that “Most MRA’s are one blowjob away from becoming a mangina.”  And I had to laugh when Andrea, not so coincidentally I might add, brought up all the blowjobs that good traditional husbands could expect from good traditional wives if only we were smart enough to indulge them in a life of light housekeeping and cooking, both of which can be had on the cheap, and both of which they directly benefit from more than the man.  After all, how much is he enjoying that tidy little abode while he is in the coal mine?

It kind of reminded me of how some people are told that 72 virgins await them in paradise if only they would strap a bomb to their midriff and push the button in a crowded café.

All that aside, the irony here is glaring.  As MRA’s we find it easy, irresistible even, to knock White Knights off their horses when they come riding in here lauding traditional values and lecturing us about how taking care of women is the manly thing to do.  It is a transparent rouse that gets by no one unscathed and for good reason.

But look what happens when the White Knight’s exact counterpart, the “traditional” woman, comes in with a guise of empathy and agreement for the MRM, but when all is said and done ends up offering fellatio in exchange for indentured servitude, and reveling in her “traditional power,” as a woman.

Tom Snark’s first response was perfect. “Fuck your traditional power.”

And other responses were good as well. But it is clear in the comments that we struggle with it, because she is a woman.

It is totally understandable. To this day, after 25 years of activism for men, if I saw a woman I didn’t know in some sort of trouble, I would still have to go through a conscious process to let her fend for herself.

In other words, I would still have to force myself not to rescue her. I can do it and have, but ingrained chivalry dies much harder than fat-assed Andrea Dworkin. And after 50 years of hot air from feminists about shedding gender roles, MRA’s are the only ones really doing it.

It ain’t easy.

There is a pretty damned healthy debate right now in that thread about whether I should have spit in the face of what some MRA’s would consider a potential ally. But I have to say I think those MRA’s are missing the point.

Traditionalism is the driving force behind male slavery.  It is the psychological machine that socializes men into becoming fodder and into becoming lapdogs disguised as guard dogs.

In my way of thinking, it never was a good deal. In the age of misandry and feminist governance, it is foolhardy to say the least. I would not do it; not for a million dollars, and certainly not for a blow job and plate of beans that I had to pay for.

I say this knowing there are married men in this forum for whom I have a great deal of respect, and whom I seriously don’t want to offend.  I respect them and I respect their personal choices as sacrosanct.

But a Couch Princess speaking up for traditionalism in the name of men’s activism? Here? Well, I dispensed enough four letter words in the first piece to express my disdain for that idea, but let me add that I am still sitting here laughing.

Again, this is not about women. And if you will allow me I want to use Izzey as an example.

Izzey worked grueling, blue collar jobs her entire adult life.  She didn’t just witness a man’s world  by watching one walk in the door, beat to hell from work, every day at 5.  She took the blows to her own body and the pain that comes with them in order to support a child.

And now here she is writing articles that unabashedly condemn princess idiots. Where it concerns support for men, let’s just look at the difference between her and Andrea.

Andrea gives blowjobs and housework to one man for letting her avoid the burdens of being a provider. That is what she calls a fair deal for him.

Izzey writes, gives money (real money), software, even a fine printer to AVfM to support the cause, and in exchange for that she wants…

Exactly nothing.

Which one of these women do you think is an advocate for men?

Which one would you prefer?

The bottom line here is simple.  I don’t support any movement to abolish personal freedom. That means that anyone should be free to pursue any type of relationship they want.  It is even written into the mission and values here that AVfM opposes any interference in the relationships or the commercialization of sex between consenting adults.

But where it concerns activism, men’s best interest and the voice that emanates from this forum, it is my not so humble opinion that any woman who likes “real” men who spend their days carrying a load she doesn’t feel obligated to share is no friend to the men and boys in this culture who now find themselves in such desperate trouble.

This kind of woman is not only an opportunist in an age where such opportunism is outmoded, she will also train any children she has to have the same entitlements, or burdens, depending on whether they are female or male.

Her sons will live on their knees, and her daughters will pay for that privilege – on theirs.

Thanks, but I’ll pass.

  • AntZ

    In my opinion, the problem is not traditional women/men, it is people who encourage others to enter into a traditional marriage. Good or bad, the traditional marriage is dead.

    Regardless of how each of us evaluates the intrinsic fairness (or lack thereof) of the traditional marriage contract, it is important to stress that the traditional marriage contract is gone forever. Any man who enters into a traditional marriage permanently indentures himself as a servant of a woman who can rip up her part of the contract at will, with no consequences.

    From the moment that a man signs on the dotted line, his freedom, his property, his life, and his children permanently belong to HER.

    The modern version of the traditional marriage is the ultimate embodiment of modern feminism:
    * Rights without responsibilities for women
    * Responsibilities without rights for men

    • Fizzy

      The end of your comment says some things I was trying to say in my comment (below). The MODERN version of “traditional marriage” involves Rights without responsibilities for women and responsibilities without rights for men. So, when I say that I can imagine some objections to Paul’s article, I’m imagining TRADITIONAL “traditional marriage”. It’s the same deal, but the woman actually does her half of it.

    • AntZ

      I think that “traditional traditional marriage” is a dangerous mirage. Like the illusion of a desert oasis. By the time that young men realize that there is no sustenance to be had in the illusion, it is too late to go back. Only despair and dispossession await men who seek traditional women.

      I do understand the frustration of women like Andrea. You can almost hear her yelling out of the page:

      “If I wanted I could take everything that my husband has and give him nothing in return! Don’t I deserve recognition for keeping my end of the bargain? The law gives me total power, and I choose not to use that power out of the goodness of my heart!”

      Here is my answer: Traditional women such as Andrea deserve real recognition for choosing to keep to their part of a 60%/40% contract in their favour. After all, she could invoke female privilege at any time and transform that into a 100%/0% contract, if she wanted to. She could shack up with the beach-boy at a cabana in Maui and force her helpless husband to finance the whole thing. So, yes, thanks for keeping your part.

      However, that is a simple “thank you”. Not a prostrated, glossy-eyed, worship-filled “gratitude to my eternal goddess.”

      I do not “drop a few F-bombs on [the] sacred cows” of traditional women, because these women are married to real men, and I know just how short of a walk it is to the county court house. The lives of these men could be sucked into the maelstrom of feminist anti man hatred in an instant. So here is to women like Andrea (and my wife) who choose not to take that walk: thanks. Really. One day, if we live in a world where your life is 100% in my hands, I promise to spare you also — but only if you remember to thank me back :)

  • Fizzy

    I couldn’t agree more. I loved the first article, and I love this one too. The “traditional woman” is not our ally.

    However, I can imagine some objections. There are men who would be happy to do most of the providing, given some reciprocal action by their women. I don’t really see a problem with this as long as everyone is truly happy with the arrangement. The problem comes when women take the freedom but not the responsibility. If you want to be a “traditional woman” then… I guess I don’t have a problem with it, but the house had really better be clean, and the sandwiches/blow-jobs forthcoming. (fembot reader explodes). But really, I’m not joking. If you want to go for “old fashioned” you can’t take the cushy house and free time without the labor that goes with it. If, on the other hand, you’re going to be an independent human being, then do what you want, but remember that I don’t owe it to you to foot the bill anymore.

  • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

    “Traditionalism is the driving force behind male slavery. It is the psychological machine that socializes men into becoming fodder and into becoming lapdogs disguised as guard dogs.”

    I really think traditionalism is a greater force to be reckoned with than feminism. By maintaining feminine privilege, traditionalism is a natural ally and supporter of feminism.

    I pick Izzey any day and absolutely consider her to be my equal.

    • Izzey

      I really think traditionalism is a greater force to be reckoned with than feminism. By maintaining feminine privilege, traditionalism is a natural ally and supporter of feminism

      I agree with this statement.

      And thank you, Denis


      • Tom M

        Right, chivalry has been around much longer than the term was first coined by knights, just as “political correctness” has likewise been around much longer than the communists who coined that term.

        Nobody really invented chivalry or feminism, they have always been twin parasitic symbionts even further back than history tells. TRADITION…

  • Simon

    A good follow article. When I first read your original article I disagreed.


    Because I thought you were addressing every female MRA (talking about the good ones who stand up for mens rights and not the ‘traditional’ type you attack).

    After reading your comments in the comments section of that article I realized that you were in fact only attacking ‘couch princesses’ as you call them.

    Good article, and with the clarification I totally agree.


    • Tom M

      Both articles were equally good and equally true. Sure the first one was offensive, but only to those who are offensive – parasitic femi-chivarist symbionts which IS traditionalism as far back as the eye can see.

  • http://AVoiceForMen Roderick

    It has made me nervous, that woman are becoming out spoken for men’s rights issues. With so few men aware of reality.
    I sometimes wonder if we are being led up the garden path by woman yet again.
    Kind of good cop – bad cop routine used in interrogation.
    Both on the same side against us.
    But I have read some of the best work, written by woman as well as men.
    As men we do need to talk among ourselves, but I am not a Feminist, and I judge an individual by their character and their merits.
    Not dogma based on prejudice.
    It could be intelligent, mature woman who make the changes, back towards families and people.
    We all must watch it is for all the right reasons.

    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

      Look at this way. When women talk, manginas listen.

      • http://AVoiceForMen Roderick

        I was made a mangina, – but at 43, after what I have been through as a boy and man, female voices, opinions and actions tend to have no principle, in much of my experience.
        Listening to a thoughtful caring man resonates through me like a religious experience. Compared to loud pushy self interest disguised as advice.
        So much female at male communication is just blackmail intimidation or threats.
        With time, suffering and loss, what better way to cure a mangina.
        No matter how self loathing he is made.

      • http://none Atlas Reloaded

        E.F. Hutton never had so much power.

  • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

    I don’t really understand the argument Are you saying that traditional housewives don’t suffer enough and are pampered princesses compared to their working spouses?

    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam


      • Raven01

        Almost broke my left click button and still only counted as one thumbs up.
        The really sad thing is often these SAHM that have it pretty easy still think they are hard done by.
        Like, “Why don’t you do MORE around the house after work?” WTF, the company I work for has killed many men and just this week amputated the leg of another at the thigh.
        Pardon me if my knee-jerk response is, “Screw you I have to be hyper-vigilate all day just to come home with all the appendages I left with in the morning.” A woman that is willing to create and maintain a safe haven for a man after days like that I can accept (and I know many will disagree) but the other type is gonna find a door slamming on their arse in short order.

      • Andrea

        I really don’t understand your insistence that housewives don’t work. That is just nonsense.

        If I made sandwiches all day at the local deli, that would be work. If I make sandwiches at home, that is not work?

        If I ironed shirts at the laundromat, that would be work. If I iron shirts at home, that is not work?

        My days are filled with work that my husband I would have to pay other people to do if I were not at home. I am forgoing a salary of approximately $100 000/year to be at home. But it’s not like I would HAVE that money. I would pay an enormous chunk of it in tax. I would pay another enormous chunk of it to childcare expenses. Then I would pay for all the costs associated with working (prepared meals, drycleaning, housekeeping, gas, car, insurance, etc) and I would spend even more trying to calm down from the stress of attempting to balance it all.

        In the end, I would have no more than a couple thousand bucks and a shitty, stressful like with whiny insecure children I never get to see. I would have zero time for daily six mile runs and would probably be fat and bitchy and think of sex as just another chore. But this would make me noble? Because hey, at least BOTH our lives suck ass?


        Instead, I do all the work that we would have to pay others to do, and we both have lives that are pretty terrific. Tim never has to balance my needs against his career, because, obviously, his career comes first. He does ALL the work outside the home, and I do ALL the work inside the home. And all the work gets done.

        I can understand that marriage, as it stands, is a terrible deal for men. I cannot agree that the solution is simply to abandon women and marriage completely.

        Alimony has to go. That is a terrible idea. If a woman chooses to divorce her husband, that is tantamount to a declaration of independence. There needs to be something at stake for women, too. Indeed, most women will tell me that I am crazy to give up my career and depend on my husband, because all men are heartless bastards who will abandon their children to starve in the streets at the slightest provocation.

        I understand that this is bullshit. It’s the same bullshit as claiming all women will assrape their husbands in divorce court.

        Sorry about the language, Paul, but you seem open-minded about the possibilities of the English language to express nuance and emotion 😉

        • Raven01

          Andrea do you really make sandwiches a day at home? How much exactly are your man and kidlets capable of eating.
          Yes you work at home, and it is a damned cush-job.
          You seem open to some of the inequities men face yet incapable of admitting that in a traditional role you have the easiest role, and it is at the expense of your husband. I’m not going to bust you too hard over that for it MAY be his choice. It also may not.

          To use your own informal voting system.

          Men who have been fucked over royally by the court system (family, criminal, or civil) AND forewarned by the woman that she would do that VOTE: Thumbs Down

          Men who have been fucked over royally by the court system (family, criminal, or civil) AND fed tripe able either how traditionals she was or how idependant she was that she’d never in a million years rape you financially or deny you time with your children VOTE: Thumbs Up

          What you are missing Andrea, is that even if you are completely honest in your statement that “I’m not like that”…… no one really cares because your entire gender has lost all credibility on the subject.

          It happens hundreds of times a day. Yet how many women tell their elected representative that they think this is wrong? A few second or third wives having THEIR meal-ticket punched by a prior ex before she gets it…. That is how many, and only a few of those.

        • The Enlightener

          Housewives ARE “pampered princesses compared to their working spouses”.

          If a woman can remember that and spend her time doing good things, that’s nice. I find it hard to believe a housewife could remain busy all day long- certainly not without multiple children around. Get a part time job as a dental hygienist or something.

          Women do not do well with idle time. If anything, it would be better if your husband had four fewer hours a day and got to spend those hours bettering himself. Meanwhile, you could spend four more hours a day contributing to the bank account. Honestly, free time is a waste on the vast majority of women, but can be invaluable for a man in improving himself and helping make the world a better place.

          Men like me are wasting our lives away working meaningless jobs that change nothing. I’d much rather spend my time learning about the world and improving it while my fiancee works. I may work part time or even full time if necessary, but as long as we need the money she’s going to be working too.

          The only thing that could possibly change that would be children, if we were to have them. Even then, I’d expect her to spend her free time doing *something* meaningful, not just sitting on her ass watching TV or watching YouTube videos or even going for a run.

          Of course, when women make more than men they are much more likely to divorce them. If that isn’t entitled, I don’t know what is.

          When there were no vacuum cleaners and washing machines, it may have been another story. Now, housewives have too much time on their hands. Without a constructive way for women to spend that extra time, marriage is not a partnership but a parasitic arrangement.

          Recognizing the value of giving men more free time at the expense of women, who would usually waste it, is also important. If men and women both worked a moderate amount, while women still kept up the home, then women wouldn’t have their idle time to waste, and men would have some free time to learn.

          Not only would this run counter to what the corporatocracy would want by reducing the labor pool, but it would allow more men to do what they REALLY want to do. Sure, some would choose to work 60 hours a week at their job, but not many.

          If men could spend 20 hours a week learning about misandry and how to better oneself, just think how far we could go as a society philosophically. We have no problem advancing technology. We have a problem advancing society to be less of a piece of crap.

          Just imagine how politics would change if men had 20 hours more free time a week to spend. Men with children could teach their boys to be men and their girls to be women. Other men could write articles about the fight against misandry. Others could go to capitol hill to petition for changes to misandric laws and government and corporate abuses.

          If men wasted less time making other men rich working 60 hours a week, we’d be able to tap so much more potential from them, resulting in betterment of society in pretty much every way.

          • The Enlightener

            Also note that this is exactly the path my fiancee and I will be following.

          • ic

            A woman can’t spend idle time learning? LOL

        • http://AVoiceForMen Roderick

          Raising children may not be the most dangerous job, but to do it well is one of the hardest jobs.
          Being a crap parent is easy, being a good one isn’t.
          Mother is one of the most misused words in the english language. It automatically means loving care.
          Many, many woman use children as collateral, ruthlessly. Same as they do men.
          Being a good home keeper is a job, and when you look at the state of mental health in the modern world, it is also one of the most important ones.
          Growing humans need stability, priority and safety.
          A full time parent doing that is in a job.

        • Eff’d Off

          Andrea put is this way,

          Would you ever, now I mean ever work on an oil rig three weeks a month or…

          * collect garbage every day at 530 AM,
          * clean up the mess in a nuclear disaster,
          * be a lone worker in a liquor store at night,
          * fix cables on a suspension bridge,
          * window wash 200 metres in the air,
          * arc weld safety lines on a cable car,
          * stoke the molten slag in a foundry,
          * tighten bolts on building scaffolding,
          * service the hull of a pleasure cruiser,
          * lay cement for a pillar of a bridge,
          * replace broken roof tiles on a church,
          * be a bodyguard for an unpopular leader,
          * diffuse a bomb,
          * clean up toxic waste,
          * collect body parts at a train wreck,

          I absolutely speak for all MRA’s here and everywhere when I say no woman gets it, not really until she admits that women will never do these society dependent jobs.

          Now you can work your milky hands raw in a pristine kept home and say “I do this and I do that…”

          Do you really think we give a gopher’s crap ?

          We are in terrible times here and your housework arrangement spiel is truly abhorrent.

          Now I admit you have said some interesting things before in previous posts but right now you are seriously behaving like a total fuckwit.

          I’m not saying you are a fuckwit – you are definitely behaving like one however.

          We face this mind sapping crap elsewhere too. Consider the following post from a man on a site showing dangerous jobs:

          “Who cares how dangerous your job is! These are people doing stupid things because they don’t own or can’t afford proper equipment. Just laugh at the absurdity or don’t bother responding at all.”

          Please take this opportunity to truly elevate your ideals in this matter.


        • Adi

          There’s a big difference between working for your family and working for someone else. Not even mentioning the fact that cooking for a family is not like cooking in a restaurant (try that if you want to know for sure). If you really think you can equate the two yourself, fine. But if you want anyone else to believe something so preposterous, then you’ll need to give us some more solid reasoning.

        • Tom M

          Andrea, YES, YOUR HIGHNESS….

    • Adi

      Marc Rudov said
      “Working your ass off all day every day is not all it’s cracked up to be”

      • http://none Atlas Reloaded

        lol you know would be epic? If this was in person and Paige asked this question-and EVERYone of us, every man in this forum responded with a simultaneous, resounding “YES!” that Paul gave!

        I’d love to see any further argument after that!

      • Bombay


      • Tom M


    • Eff’d Off


      • http://none Atlas Reloaded


  • Bizzman662

    “Traditionalism is the driving force behind male slavery. It is the psychological machine that socializes men into becoming fodder and into becoming lapdogs disguised as guard dogs.”

    Spot on Pual,

    To further that point it’s funny how those harpies scream Traditional yet Equality at the same time:

    1. Open the door for me. As an equal I should be able to do it myself….I mean I have two hands and a door is not that heavy but if you don’t open the FUCKING door for me that’s just rude. Waaaaahhhhhh.

    2. Thanks for buying me dinner. It’s your RESPONSIBILITY to pay for dinner. After all I get hungry and I have a VAGINA. You know……the VAGINA! This lil thing between my legs means you get to buy me dinner. Oh yeah, if you have any hope of me putting your dick in my mouth later……I’ll have the Lobster and that $50.00 glass of wine. Really I like you buying me dinner. I have Johnny Bad Boy that might call me dinner but a girls gotta eat! Depending on my mood, I might spend the night with you but what I really just wanted to do is get a great dinner on your dime and go home. That way when Johnny Bad Boy calls me later, (Usually after 2 A.M.) I’ll have a full belly and he can bend me over, call me dirty names and get back to me in a week or so. Sorry I led you on. I just like to eat! Near the end of dinner the phone rings and she says…..OMG! My girlfriend is in trouble, I gotta go! She arrives home and Johnny is waiting to smack that ass but at least she has a good buzz and a full belly.

    3. I am woman! I love to wear my really low cut top shirt and really short skirt to work. I dress like a slut so you will look…….no, so you will LUST after me on the job! My body my choice! Hey! Are you looking at my boobs! I know I have a push-up bra on and a V-neck shirt that almost shows my nipples……..BUT ARE YOU LOOKING AT MY TITS? YOU FUCKING PERVERT! HR! HR! I HAVE BEEN SEXUALLY HARASSED AT WORK! Waaaaaahhhhhhhhh

    4. Oh, did I mention that little thing called a Vagina earlier? Yeah. It’s powerful shit! Me and my girls go out on the town every weekend and you know what? I have a VAGINA! Ooooooo My vagina allows me to slut it out at the bar and get free drinks all night long! ALL NIGHT LONG!!!!! I love to drink for free with my girls! You guys are such fools! Oh, I’m a little buzzed right now…….hey good looking! OK I’ll go back to your place tonight…..you’ll do. The next morning I KNOW my boyfriend will ask where I was and he works, pays all the bills and provides me everything! OMG! What did I do? He is going to be so mad at me! I might get thrown out! NO! I must have been raped! OH NO I WAS RAPED!!!

    5. OK. I got married. Yeah he’s a nice enough fella. I mean all those Disney Movies told me that I’m a princess………….I AM A FUCKING PRINCESS and your supposed to get me my kingdom! IT’S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!!!! Work? What? My kids need me and your supposed to be my prince! OK, So I learned over time that Johnny Bad Boy got me wet but he’s not going to provide me with all of this! He only called me when he wanted some pussy! OMG I always felt so dirty but now I reeled in my lil fish and I have a VAGINA! I HAVE A FUCKING VAGINA!!!!!! I know you work all the time but I am getting SO BORED and I have been going out with the girls again and I met Johnny Bad Boy #2. I also talked to Bitter Sally…….you know she just got a divorce and she kept the house, retirement accounts and the kids…..plus she get’s PAID once a month by her EX. I have a VAGINA!!!! Wait! Johnny Bad Boy #2 can be my bad boy……and my life won’t change that much!

    Do you know why?

    I am woman and I have a Vagina and we all know since I have both of these attributes……I get to have my cake and eat it to!

    Or something like that.

    • Cumbria

      WOW – that was GREAT! You nailed it! Perhaps you should consider being a contributing writer here. That was a fun read.

    • http://none Atlas Reloaded

      WOW! Just wow! That really was great. Bizz if you don’t mind I will copy this and e-mail it to some guys, with YOUR name on the copy, of course.

      You know what is really great about this? It manages to show how Jonny Bad Boy is just as much of a sucker/mangina as Joe White Knight the Provider is.

      • scatmaster

        I hope Bizz will allow me to copy and paste it as well.
        I remember Angry stating on his website that anyone could copy and paste anything from his site they wanted to and not even give him credit as long as the word got out. I have posted many of Angry’s comments, whilst I have never taken credit for them I have not given him credit as well. Those comments have sure as hell gotten a response. Hopefully more commentators let us do this as well. Get the word out!!! Who cares who says it!!!

        • scatmaster

          However, if asked. I will give credit where credit is due.

          • Bizzman662

            By all means copy away. I just sat and wrote that shit. It is DRIPPING with sarcasm……(although it’s sad that this sarcasm is mostly true)…….

            So NEVER think I value the power of the vagina. I like the vagina but after eating the red pill for a while now………..I see things for what they are.

            Equality vs. Traditional values is something most of us miss in the Feminist message….that is until you eat the RED PILL day after day. They SCREAM equality but they really want BOTH while at the same time destroying men, boys, families and our society in the process.

            How a bunch of fat, hairy man hating bitches got away with this shit is beyond me…..but it’s men like Dr. Paul, Factory, Uncle Bern, The writers at the spearhead, all the writers here…….and women like Dr. T, Amy Alkon, and the people at SAVE, The Eagle Forum, Mensactivisim.org, and MANY MANY more that are starting to awaken the masses and at least get the other side heard before it’s too late.

            It may just well be too late based on the lobbying, BILLIONS of dollars per year our government gives to the feminist ideology, the absolute entrenchment of feminist values in our society and the media putting it out there every day.

            It may be too late but at least we will go down swinging in the process with the above people in our corner.

          • http://none Atlas Reloaded

            You are comended for disliking and resenting misandry in all it’s forms. Both outright and the covert. You are not blamed one bit for still liking the punanny. Not by me anyway.

    • Tom M

      “A real man will swim through shark infested waters to bring his woman a glass of lemonade to prove his total devotion and real commitment to her.”

      Now what supremacist freak said that one???

      Only a Borderline Personality Disordered “woman” would even think remotely that way, so scared of abandonment that her man must prove his commitment constantly.

  • Apedale

    Not sure I buy into this line of thinking.

    A woman who gives you sex and companionship (more of the latter than the former as years go by) has more worth than one who brings in money. Is this too controversial?

    “Work” for many non-traditionalist women means “getting up in the morning”.

    What are we let with?

    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

      Speaking of buying, is this what you think men are supposed to do for sex in a committed relationship with woman?

      You say “A women who give you sex” as though it is a resource she is supposed to be compensated for. Like I said, I had no problems with hooking, but please, let’s lay off the pussy worship. It’s only a vagina.

      • Herbal Essence

        “let’s lay off the pussy worship. It’s only a vagina.”

        Damn skippy. There are well over 2 billion vaginas belonging to grown women around the world. This is not a limited resource. And any man who’s been in one enough times knows it’s not all its cracked up to be. Especially when it belongs to a typical modern woman.

        • http://AVoiceForMen Roderick

          It has always been strange to me that men worship the vagina. Realization that the pleasures a man experiences during a sexual act actually come from his own body, – not hers might help men.
          Yes her body heightens the experience beyond all reasoning, but your own body is half of the process too.
          Narcissistic woman use men for sex – they are having with themselves.
          Just like they are having lifestyles with themselves princibley using men, – and then his/their children too.
          Many woman masturbate themselves through life using people.
          That’s what many rich men do too, but in vastly smaller numbers.
          What a load of wankers!

      • scatmaster

        It’s only a vagina.

        and most of them are smelly and not very well taken care of.

        • http://none Atlas Reloaded

          Truisms really abound in this site.

        • http://www.cyclotronmajesty.net Cyclotron Majesty

          I think women should be circumcised… I just think the uncircumcised vagina looks really bad. In fact I think both sexes should be circumcised. But it should really be up to the parents and not automatically done on boys and illegal on girls.

          • http://AVoiceForMen Roderick

            Circumcision is mutilation, it should only be done by an individual to himself if he wants it. Same goes with woman.

          • Mr. J

            It was done to me as a baby…….hell, I didn’t even know it was done or that there was “anything” any different until I was told there was.
            Much bigger fish to fry if you ask me.

          • Snark

            I think you’re in the minority here, CM.

            I understand that most men in America are circumcised (apologies if you are not American – this is an assumption on my part) and so it seems normal for American men.

            For those of us who do not live in America (i.e. not brought up in a culture in which circumcision is normal), the practice seems strange and needless if not barbaric.

            We could argue endlessly about if it’s more or less hygenic; and I have read endless arguments on this subject. As far as I’m concerned, it’s no less hygenic being uncircumcised so long as you regularly rinse.

            All of this, however, misses the point.

            Which is that we welcome baby boys into the world by lopping off part of their genitals and then stitching it up so that that part will never grow back again.

            I’m well aware that for almost all men, this does not become a problem later in life.

            Still, it was never their decision to make.

            The idea that other people should have the right to decide whether or not parts of your body are removed – sets us on a very dangerous road.

            Horrifying, in fact.

            The same applies to female circumcision. It doesn’t really matter how other people think genitals look; we should not ever accept that certain people can decide to mutilate the genitals of others.

          • D


    • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

      Sex and companionship are free. Why are you paying for it?

      • BeijaFlor

        Not in my corner of the universe. Congratulations on yours.

        The last time I had sex without paying cold cash for it was in 1986.

      • Carlos

        No such thing as a free lunch.

        Couple good quotes:

        “Gold-diggers… like hookers, only smarter.”

        “I don’t pay prostitutes for sex… I pay them to leave afterwards.”

        …I know, I know, NAWALT..

    • Adi

      One thing I really like about prostitution is it’s honesty. “I have something you want and you have something I want so let’s make a deal” and everybody wins.

      But I have no time for people taking prostitution and calling it something else like, hm…. marriage, relationship, sorry, I meant “traditional relationship”.

      Pay for sex if you want but don’t you dare try and sell it to me as something other than prostitution.

      • Snark

        Doesn’t seem like a fair deal to me.

        You get sex, she gets sex and money.

        You get one thing you wanted, she gets two.

        That sounds like a scam.

        • Apedale

          Speaking as one who is no worshipper of vaginas.

          And we don’t need women to work.

          This was the question I meant to ask, what are we left with?

          What do women do?

        • Donn

          I don’t agree Snark, considering what you DON’T get in return(miniature bank cards- I mean kids after the divorce), everything you’ve ever worked for gone, a constant money drain even when dating, and the very real potential of cheating/cuckolding/false rape accusations(though there are cases of street workers pulling this stunt too), I’d say prostitution is a far fairer deal than a relationship/marriage in today’s climate, and it cuts straight through the bull like Adi said. I consider its legalization a valuable step in breaking up the va-jay-jay empire, as well as bringing over sex-starved manginas who would now no longer have to go through hoops/backstab other men to get laid(though you’ll always have true believers no matter what), but can go to the nearest brothel. And before anyone says that’s objectifying women, 1.kiss my ass, 2. most pimps are actually female, 3. go cry more.

          • Snark

            Prostitution is preferable to marriage 2.0 (which is really just very expensive prostitution).

            Both are scams.

            It is possible to have sex with women without marrying them or paying them.

            Sex in exchange for sex.

            That’s the only fair deal.

    • typhonblue

      I don’t give my husband sex and companionship.

      We share sex and companionship.

      • D

        Succinctly stated, well done.
        One of those that is so simple I can use it as a pithy test of a woman’s compatibility for LTR, i.e.: on hearing the statement, does she even get it or not, let alone have a position on the question.

  • Herbal Essence

    Traditional women (and women in general) need to wake up. Men are leaving the church and the plantation, and we’re not bringing you with us.

    1. I know several men who did EVERYTHING they were supposed to do to find a “good Christian woman.” Their “dutiful wife” still used Big Daddy Government to ass-rape their “dutiful husbands” within a few years.

    2. Your housekeeping, mediocre cooking, and sexual “Lie back and think of England” moments are a plentiful resource men can get ANYWHERE now very reasonably. I’m a better cook than any woman I know. I can get my house cleaned cheaply. I can have sex whenever I want, and sex ain’t all that big of a deal anyway.

    3. As far as child-rearing, lots of men don’t want kids or we’re exploring surrogacy/waiting for artificial wombs. We can hire a nanny and many of us have mothers/sisters/relatives who will HAPPILY help us raise the kids.

    4. Don’t give us “it’s your Christian duty to marry us” crap when WOMEN, yes, WOMEN have been taking a dump on traditional Christian marriage for decades now. See point #1.

    5. You have had DECADES now to push back against the divorce industrial complex and the domestic violence industrial complex. You haven’t lifted a finger. In fact, traditional women seem to love the status quo.

    In conclusion: Men are wising up to your game. If you want a world where men are willing to provide for you (or your daughters) it’s put up or shut up time. Given your history, I predict growing spinsterhood and cats among the “Godly women” of the U.S. for the next century or two. Meow!

  • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

    I am not one of those trads that pushes men to marry women. I think a man marrying a woman he isn’t head-over-heels for is a bad deal for the man and the woman.

    But it isn’t always practical to have 2-incomes and children. Daycare costs are expensive.

    SAHD’s are becoming more popular.. so the issue isn’t a womans role but the cost/benefits of leaving small children to be raised by an institution instead of their parents.

    Sometimes work-out-side the home is more cushy than homemaking. I have been both and depending on the job I wouldn’t prefer staying home. When I do stay home I do it for practicalities sake, not because I feel I am “entitled” to get out of the provider role.

    • Adi

      Oh, but entitled you are because a man typically doesn’t have that option.

      And please don’t confuse women with mothers. The traditional women we’re attacking here, are those in particular who would stay at home even if they aren’t needed there for practical reasons.

    • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

      I like your attitude. Unlike the traditionalists you recognize your responsibilities. However, most women decide to stay home because it is by far preferable to the daily grind. There is no boss pushing for deadlines and you can make it as easy or as difficult as you choose.

      I’m not so sure about any occupations that are more cushy than homemaking. Do you have any examples?

      SAHD’s are becoming more popular, but mostly out of necessity due to unemployment. There will never be a complete gender reversal because women won’t choose SAHD’s for their partners in large numbers.

      • Adi

        All the really nice and cushy jobs are those you can do from home.

      • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

        Most of the SAHD’s I have known were not too keen on the situation themselves. They felt like it was an insult to their manhood and only did it out of total necessity.

        Personally, I don’t care for the financial dependence that being at home requires so in that sense I do miss working. I *loath* asking for money…I always feel guilty wanting what I haven’t earned myself.

        • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

          Yes, men may find being a SAHD as an insult to their manhood, but it is not an entirely male problem. Men are very concerned about how they are perceived by women.

          The pendulum is swinging and women are becoming higher wage earners. I don’t think societal attitudes will change as rapidly and there’s going to be a lot of disappointed women.

        • The Enlightener

          You don’t care for the financial *dependence*?

          That tells me something.

          You don’t understand partnership fully.

          In a partnership, where you contribute equally, you have a shared pool of resources.

          Your husband *should* be the one decided how those resources are spent.

          The same *should* be true if you worked and your husband stayed home.

          It isn’t your money and his money, it’s all your money, but he makes the decisions. Sure, you can spend it on reasonable things, but don’t have a cow if you get scolded for wasteful spending, which is the hallmark of women.

          Men also need to understand that marriage, if it weren’t so broken, would hypothetically be a partnership, where you both do what makes sense to get the results you desire.

          Back when women didn’t have all this idle time on their hands, this may have been true.

          Now, it’s not at all, and both men and women need to realize they could be spending their time much more wisely. Men could work less and advance society more, while women could shop and sit on their asses less, and work more or contribute to society in other meaningful ways, as stated here: http://avoiceformen.com/2011/04/15/a-letter-to-traditional-women-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-31172

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            I am very supportive of men and women not marrying.

            When I got married I was young and very naive. If I knew what I know now I probably would not have.

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            Not that I don’t love my husband as much as back then, it is just now I realize how high risk marriage is and how likely it is to fail. Having a nervous disposition I don’t like living with so much uncertainty.

          • Donn

            That you have a nervous disposition makes me worried for your husband, what happens if you get a twitch and decide to pull the non-literal trigger on him to save yourself? You’re saying you would NEVER do that to him now, you would never punish him(like you should ever even have the right to make that decision, he’s a man, not your child), but I can’t count on my hands the many women who said the exact same thing as you did but when things went south did what they said they wouldn’t.

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            I have far more to lose by my marriage ending than he does. He is far more likely to pull the trigger than me.

            If anything my nervous disposition means he can get away with nearly anything.

          • Donn

            Not legally. No matter how nervous you get, you can still end him rather easily. Just cry a four letter word and the police will be besides themselves to beat him down and throw him in jail.

          • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

            I was quite appreciative of your honesty in previous comments…until this!

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            It might not be the case for *every* woman, but in my case I am way more dependent on him than he is on me.

            His leaving me would cause financial ruin. There is *no way* I can support 6 kids.. child-support and welfare would not be enough to give them a good life. I would probably have to sacrifice sole custody to him and I would miss them dearly.

            Not every woman sets up her life in such a way that leaving would be easy or beneficial. Some of us are very dependent.

          • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

            Nonsense, it would mean financial ruin for HIM. You would still be taken care of, even if that means that he has to live out of his car.

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            If that is the case how come all the mothers of large families that I know of are experiencing extreme poverty?

            Raising a large family is only really possible in a 2-parent home unless you are wealthy.

          • Tom M

            Paige, you’re only soooo dependant on him if you’ve chosen to seek the free ride FROM him…

            Your choice. Men have no choices like the plethora of choices women have.

          • BeijaFlor

            @ Paige, April 16,2011 – 04:19:
            “I have far more to lose by my marriage ending than he does. He is far more likely to pull the trigger than me. If anything my nervous disposition means he can get away with nearly anything.”

            Are you practicing that phrase for Divorce Court????

          • typhonblue

            Oh for fuck’s sake.

            YOU are the one who will decide your marriage’s fate. If it fails, it was because you decided to let it fail.

            Women have that much power. They have EXACTLY the relationship they decide to have.

            No need for uncertainty.

            Pro-tip: Engage in affectionate touch every single day to maintain an intimate relationship. That’s it, that’s all you need. Exactly the same way you tame a wild animal. People over-think shit waaaay too much.

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            That isn’t true at all. 1. Some husbands are not even interested in intimate touch everyday. 2. Even those who are sometimes get sick of monogamy.

          • typhonblue

            I didn’t say intimate (as in, he fucks you whilst doing all the work), I said affectionate.

            Also, if you’re interested in a chorus of ‘poor pitiable me’, why are you here?

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            I wasn’t looking for pity..I was offering another perspective.

          • typhonblue

            Which you then reject completely, so what’s the point?

          • Tom M

            Oh, yes, there really is so much at risk for women to marry…. Just like women are hurt most by war…

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com paige

            Our arrangement made the most sense given the number of children we have and their ages, and given the fact that we moved an average of every 2 years because of his job.

            My family told me I was being an idiot, I should make sure I can take care of myself if he leaves me, and not ever allow myself to be in a situation that could ruin me. But I did anyway because it is what WE agreed on.

            All of you men who seem to think that women only experience sunshine and rainbows after a divorce are judging all women based on the Real Housewives of Wherever and not on the reality that is young middle class families.

            I am not saying women have it WORSE, I am saying some women are severely hurt by divorce. Single parenthood is one of the leading causes of poverty.

          • BeijaFlor

            Hoo-boy, Paige. You are so definitely in the wrong place at the wrong time, with that statement.

            I was raised by a single mother, dearie, back before no-fault divorce and the current Family Law system that butt-rapes the husband in favor of the woman. I grew up in conditions of genteel poverty, with none of the benefits you’d get if you treated him the way a rat treats a sinking ship.

            And you’d get plenty more help than my mother did, while your “ex” might be lucky to find a nice refrigerator box under an overpass to live in after Child Support.

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com paige

            Right now living off of my husbands income alone we are struggling. Even in the case where the judge gives me a huge percentage of his income and I get some government aid, it won’t be enough.

            The ONLY reason our lifestyle works at all is because we each have different skill sets and responsibilities that when combined create a functional home.
            Either one of us leaving the arrangement would require an immediate suitable replacement. There isn’t any possible way I can find a man to do what my husband does, but the odds that he can find a woman to do what I do are much better.

            This is why it is much easier for him to leave me than me to leave him. Women with their pre-selection bias will jump at the chance to raise another mans kids while nobody wants to financially support a middle-aged womans 6 kids.
            I can pinch a penny til it screams (i.e. feed a family of 7 on 75 dollars a week) but I can’t go get a job that makes 3000 a month (the minimum we need to survive)…only my husband can do that because I supported him while he went to college and now he has marketable skills and I don’t.

          • Tom M

            no wonder men should be affraid, very affraid of women like you…

  • barbarossaaa

    @ paige.

    why should a man marry any woman, what does marriage do for a man other than put him at the mercy of his wife?

    why should any man get married, give actual incentives to get married, not romantic fairy tale crap.

    what exactly does marriage get a man that he cant already get from his girlfriend?

    • Herbal Essence

      barbarossaaa, you’re being silly. Men need wives.

      We need wives so we have someone to nag at us and second-guess every single decision we make. We need wives because our lives aren’t complete without a perpetually-dissatisfied hypocrite making demands on us. We need wives to leech off our productive labor to buy trinkets. We need wives because it’s so much fun to have an emotional basket case crying on our shoulder. We need wives so we can experience the joy and wonder of divorce court and primary aggressor laws.

      • barbarossaaa

        yes we must be good providers!! i cant wait to spend all my money on a lazy parasi…. er… wife, and feel all provider like.

        • Herbal Essence

          I can’t wait to buy her that oriental rug and jade vase she’s been asking…oh wait…ok dear you don’t want the rug anymore? But yesterday you said…Yes, you’re allowed to change your mind…no dear, you’re right I don’t deserve you…yes dear, i’ll get off the computer now.

          • barbarossaaa

            yes dear heres some more money for your third manicure this week..

            oh and your gym membership is paid up for the next year, cuz.. well you know traditional women stay in shape for there providers….BTW hows that guy Raul the personal trainer your always talking about.. real nice guy….

          • ic

            This whole line of comments has veered off topic into the realm of pure sexism, and y’all know it.

    • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

      If you are not an old-fashioned romantic then there is probably no reason to get married.

      • barbarossaaa

        if you are not interested in


        financial ruin

        negative health effects

        the shitty end of adultery, alimony, and child support,

        a couple days in the slammer for domestic violence you didnt commit

        working 60 hour weeks to sustain your sweethearts spare tire

        then there is probably no reason to get married

      • Kazzi

        Why does one have to be ‘romantic’ to get married. Oh get a grip on the real world.

        Bring her flowers, shower her with gifts is total bullshit.

        Once that starts the women expects it more and more, and if it stopped straight away the women thinks that he has found someone else/cheating on her.

        No it is better not to do any of these things.

        My husband (Stu) right from the word go said that he doesnt buy flowers … and so I have never expected him to do it and honestly I appreciated his total honestly on that.

        If I want flowers to brighten up the house… I buy them myself, or get them from my garden.

        So to you its all about ‘romance’ and not about commitment, communication and loyality. As well as being totally upfront about everything and NOT changing your mind. Not nagging nor demanding.

        Open your eyes to the real world – men are sick and tired of women who say one thing… but in the end, those words mean nothing – as it has all been lies. They are the ones who end the marriages, they are the ones who change and want what is greener on the other side.

        • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

          All the benefits of marriage you can get with cohabitation. I was answering the question with my best guess. Getting married doesn’t make much sense, so the only reason I can assume someone would do it is because they are old-fashioned.

          • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

            …old-fashioned and because after marriage a low/no wage earner (usually a women) can be set for life.

          • BeijaFlor

            @ Paige: “All the benefits of marriage you can get with cohabitation.”

            And it takes less and less time, under the same roof, until the courts let you plunder your Significant Other same as if you were married.

            Barfo – I mean bravo, Paige.

      • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

        And if you get married, you will soon be without reason to be an old fashioned romantic.

      • Adi

        What in the world does being romantic have to do with marriage? I’m a romantic alright and because of that I cannot understand the need to make a legal contract. Nothing could be less romantic.

        Being romantic is one of the reasons not to marry.

        • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

          okay. I’m just making a guess based on what my husband would say.

          • The Enlightener

            That’s probably true. And the thing is that guys need to expect more from their women.

      • typhonblue

        Do you know what’s romantic?

        Shovelling a ditch together.

        I’m not kidding. It is.

        • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

          That made me laugh. My female friends often ask me to help them do things, which most often means that they want me to do it for them. I always insist that they get their hands dirty as well. They appreciate the hard work that I do when they experience it themselves.

  • barbarossaaa

    traditional woman.

    lol, these gals define themselves by tradition… the traditions that they seek to emulate havent been observed in the wild since the 1960’s

    therefore the traditions of the past 50 years are the only suitable up to date references that can define the traditional behavior of women. which of course is defined by divorce, abortions, false rape/domestic violence accusers, increased female violence, and misandry.

    dont you get it??

    we dont want to play house….go pretend we are all living in an episode of mad men, just dont expect anybody to carry you.

    once again, NO we are not interested in paying your bills, for blowjobs. your going to have to start giving your bj’s out for (gasp) free or dont give them out at all…

    no no and no there is no interest in paying your bills…. when will that become clear?

    • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

      That will be clear when ALL men agree with you. Right now there are still a lot of men who seem to prefer the provider role. Some men…even ones in the manosphere…won’t even consider a woman who isn’t willing to be a housewife.

      • barbarossaaa


        less and less men everyday my dear.. who knows maybe yours will stumble across some MGTOW literature soon enough.

        • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

          I read it to him, actually.

          I don’t want anyone to be with me who doesn’t want to be. If he feels marriage is a raw deal he is free to leave. I won’t try to get his stuff…I won’t punish him.

          I never EVER want any man living with me who would rather not. That sounds like a nightmare.

          • barbarossaaa

            so your saying that you would be happy with him, even if he didnt want to get married?

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            I can’t do that because I am religious and it would be fornication.

            But he is as traditional (if not more so) than I am so marriage was something he wanted from a young age…I hardly got the impression I pressured him into it.

            If he changed his mind and left I would be hurt (obviously) but I would deal with it and move on.

          • barbarossaaa

            and theres the trap. show me please, where in the bible does it say

            though shalt require written and stamped and notarized approval from the state to be defined as married.

            there where no government contracts in biblical marriage, it was a bond between man woman and God…

            what you speak of is business (prostitution in fact) not marriage. marriage…true marriage needs no validation from outside sources.

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            I am not necessarily in favor of civil marriage…but as far as I know getting married in the Church without a civil marriage was not a possibility. If that were to change I would be pleased.

          • barbarossaaa

            again where in the bible does it say you need to get married in a church?

            your still looking for outward sources of validation for your definition of marriage.

            marriage requires none of these things, you dont need permission from the state or some church to be married, even in the religious sense

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            I am Catholic. I do what the Magisterium tells me.

          • Bob O’Hara

            “I am Catholic. I do what the Magisterium tells me.”

            That was a complete copout to Barbarossaaa’s quesion. It is also a complete abdication of personal responsibility that many “traditional” women use to blame others for their decisions and to sheild themselves from the laborious task o forming their own opinions.

            Answer these questions for me please:

            How do you feel about default judgements of equal custody and no money changing hands uppon a divorce?

            How do you feel about parity of reproduction rights for men and women? (I have a feeling that you will hide behind the whole catholic thing again)

            How do you feel about the abolition of lifelong alamony?

            How do you feel about the abolition of No Fault Divorce?

            How do you feel about men having an effective and reversable fertility control method? (now if you pull out the old catholic “every sperm is sacred” crap out on this one then you are truely a lost cause)

          • Adi

            “I do what the Magisterium tells me.”

            Would you also murder if the magistrerium told you?

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            Catholics are not biblical literalists so saying “Where is that in the Bible” is not a question I can answer.

            1. good
            2. don’t know what you mean
            3. good
            4. good
            5. good

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            I wouldn’t believe in a Church that told me to murder.

          • Bob O’Hara


            what I mean about #2 is to enable men to not be dragged into parenthood by a woman who has made a UNILATERAL decision to become parent. Read “A Modest Proposal For Male Reproductive Rights” here:

            and let us all know what you think.

          • The Enlightener

            Paige wouldn’t believe in a church that told her to murder.

            But she’d believe in a church that told her to spend her days leeching off her husband.

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            looks good to me

          • Adi

            You just said you do what the magisterium tells you to do. And now you say that you might not if it was bad enough.

            So which is it going to be? Do you decide for yourself what orders you carry out or do you not? You can’t have it both ways. Either you make your own choices or you don’t.

          • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

            So long as the Church is consistent I trust it.

          • Adi

            Looking for consistency in the Catholic church?
            I’d rather try my luck in women’s studies classes and that was an understatement.

          • Tom M

            Paige, you’ll find a much friendlier crowd to male dominated religious marriage at the antifeminism group.

          • BeijaFlor

            @ Paige: “I don’t want anyone to be with me who doesn’t want to be. If he feels marriage is a raw deal he is free to leave. I won’t try to get his stuff…I won’t punish him.”

            Wow! You MUST be the Easter Bunny!

          • BeijaFlor

            Oops – sorry, Paige. I didn’t read enough sub-comments to find out you’re Catholic. And you probably grew up in the Church, an institution that takes “till death do you part” quite seriously.


        Honey, MGTOW’S don’t care what others think or do, that is the point.

        An MGTOW “this is what an MGTOW looks like” t-shirt is invisible, do you get it?

        BTW bias against men in western culture is bias against men, religion is not relevant.

        Men do not owe women anything.

      • Pankaj

        This is not a suicide prevention club, or risky behavior prevention club. There always will be those that are different.. we have no problem with them.

      • AntZ


        Women like you make me wish there was a future for marriage. Sadly, I think events have gone too far. For a man, marriage today is too much like suicide.

      • Raven01

        Oddly enough I have not seen my own children in three years because I had the audacity to suggest that my ex stop putting a permanent dent in the chesterfield and go get a job, or atleast volunteer somewhere to get out of the house, be around other adults, and contribute to our community.

        The man you speak of hasn’t read a newspaper, or visited a news site in 20 years……. Or is being covert in hiring a long term prostitute.

      • Robert

        After 15 years of marriage and a divorce with another decade of alimony and child support to look forward to, I think I’ve had enough with the providing.

  • http://men-factor.blogspot.com ScareCrow P-Man

    Sex as a commodity. That is what it boils down to.

    A woman offering me sex is not entitled to more than half the stuff I earn in my lifetime.

    There is a word for women who think like this:


    • giselle

      hookers are cool.

      • Kazzi

        Only the ones who play ‘Rugby League and Union’…. lol

    • scatmaster

      ScareCrow P-Man said:

      A woman offering me sex is not entitled to more than half the stuff I earn in my lifetime.

      Struth. A woman thinks because she has internal genitalia that she is the entitled one. Fuck you cunt!!! I am at a stage in my life where my prick no longer stands at attention because of cardiac drugs, etc. It has given me a perspective on women. They ain’t much!!!

  • http://voiceformen.com J3DIforce1

    Great article to simplify it for the offended. Traditionalism may have worked back in the day because at one time it was needed for the survival of the family. Not so anymore.

    Feminism has made it possible through “equality” for women to venture outside the home thus making the family unit a two income necessity. So now I think it is fair to say that at this point traditionalism is one more way to keep a man down because feminism and society at large has hammerd the entitlement scam in the heads of women so deeply, that one must raise an eye brow and wonder are they fighting for men’s rights or are fighting for old comforts now that they see feminist “equality” sucks.

    And even if they are genuine about their intentions that does not eliminate the fact that if things do not pan out for them…their is a cruel and unjust system set in place that will work in their favor. It is indeed extremely FAIR to say the words “how much of an MRA do you think they will be when that time comes” is it not.

    • Herbal Essence

      Modern women are “free” from the chains of serving an important role in a man’s life. Modern women are “free” to become unmarriageable. Modern men are wise to stay “free” of the clutches of these harpies.

      Go Team Woman!!!!

      • Kazzi

        Yet these women are the ones who want a child. So rather than going thru the ‘traditional way’ of having one, will seek to have IVF.

        Free from chains… oh please what a stupid statement… No it is Men that are free from the ball and chain of the nagging wife who demands everything in life.

        Go team women – B/shit.

        No ~ It is ‘ Free men’ of this stupid hatred that has been built up against you by these Manginas, white knights and Feminazi’s

        • giselle

          Go team women…blech, but go team Edward! yaaaay!

      • BeijaFlor

        “Go Team Woman!!!!”

        Yeah. Just go. Elsewhere, please.

        • http://none Atlas Reloaded

          With respect to you sir, I will use that and improvise it: “You GO girl….go elsewhere!”

          • giselle

            Or, Go Go gadget shoe jets!!

      • Raven01

        Pretty sure you all are misreading sarcasm. The ” Go Team Woman” is a joke. Women have lost what most wanted by letting others tell them what to want and who was to blame if it didn’t fall in their lap.

        • http://none Atlas Reloaded

          lol, No I got that after reading it a few more times. But “Go (team0 Women Elsewhere” did a lot for me anyway.

        • BeijaFlor

          As I said, “Yeah. Just go. Elsewhere, please.”

          Meant to amplify the sarcasm. Didn’t it help a little?

          • http://none Atlas Reloaded

            I don’t even know anymore man , LOL

  • Kazzi

    Fantastic 2 Articles Paul.

    May I add a few points.

    How many times have we heard this. ‘Oh men are so commitment phobic’.
    Women wont get it through their heads on this one little statement. To them they think it is this. They cant take the step of taking ‘responsiblity’, yes I have used that word, to take a ‘wife’ and then subsequently children on for ~ well it use to be ~ till death do us part… BUT now it is ~ till divorce courts do we part.

    Because of the internet today men can honestly see how screwed over they get when it comes to divorce. They loose EVERYTHING. They house, their money, pretty much all of their assets and of course if children are involved, seeing their children everyday.

    Why should men get involved let alone married to a women when this will be the outcome.

    I have worked – yes in quite a few different fields from being a ‘suit’, defence personnel, to a storeperson. I have never had a joint back account, BUT with my pay, it was NEVER just for myself. My pay was and is used to pay for the family groceries and my 2 at home teenagers – hubby (Stu) pays the bills. We both have paid half for the house we live in – yes 50/50.

    Ok I will admit I will ask for help from a male, but only when I have tried to do it myself first. Just the simple things… like changing a tyre. Sometimes those lugs are on so dam tight that I honestly dont have the ‘muscle’ to move them … but I am not one to sit back and wait… I will persist with it. I have changed the battery in my car, changed the leads, the petrol filter. I know how to check the oil and water (most women wouldnt have a clue how to even open the bonnet of a car) or even know what air pressure to put in a tyre. Well my Dad taught me all of that… and I thank him greatly.

    My Mum – well she taught me how to be a good home maker. She was (yes she is up in Heaven now) a fantastic cook, sewer etc. Yes she was a stay at home Mum but for back in the 60’s and 70’s she looked after 3 kids… and it was when we were in our teens that she found a job. One thing I am proud of for my mum is that she did fight for the right for girls to wear long pants at our primary school during winter time – other wise it was the box pleated dress for us.

    Paul, I will call myself a traditional women, but with that I also now work. I still uphold good family values and I have passed those values onto my 4 children so I hope that it will continue.

    Thats my 2 cents worth :)

    • hestia

      I’m pretty similar; most would consider me traditional but I do own a home business and work at home & occasionally sell my products face to face at the farmers market and craft shows. My daughter goes with me when I’m selling and is going to be marketing her own special item (“magic eggs” as she calls them) at my booth this year. She’s hoping to save up her money to buy herself a scooter. It’s parenting friendly employment and provides my daughter with some great lessons as a nice added bonus.

      I work for an income for the same reason I work inside the home to live very frugally: to fully fund our retirement funds & our daughter’s saving fund and to grow the savings we’re building up to buy a house in cash at my husband’s next duty station. All of these measures will provide my husband with more true choice when decision time comes to sign that Army contract again or not. Before I had my business I decorated gluten free cakes from home and provided child care in order to help my husband pay off the debt he had when we were first married. One summer I did work for a farmer that included marketing his CSA and helping on chicken slaughter day with good wholesome farm food as payment. In the future when my homeschooling duties are over and our little one grown I do intend to go back to work full-time though in what career field that may be is yet to be determined.

      • Kazzi


        There are only a few of us left, that stand next to our husbands, not in front, nor behind. We are not ones for the ‘give me, give me’. We are not the ones who want a ‘manicure, facial, nor having our hair done every second day’. I have never once had a Manicure nor facial – why waste money on those frugal things.

        We stand next to our husbands as a partnership of life. We know we both have roles within the family boundaries. We share our happiness and heartaches. We appreciate what is done for us and it is shown back.

        We do not take things for granted, nor do we accept things will be given to us just because we ask (oh I wish my teenagers were reading this).

        Family values need to be brought back into the ‘western’ civilization and it needs to start from the top down – yes governements. To stop making stupid laws against men. To stop making it easier to get a divorce on dam heresay. And for the USA – to throw out the law of ‘Allimony’. If people divorce then so be it. Why should a man have to pay for a women who he no longer lives with??? That is the most stupidest law that the USA ever introduced.

        Men are men, women are women.

        • hestia

          I absolutely agree with you Kazzi, about the crazy expensive beauty treatments and the changes in the law.

          But you’re scaring me with the parenting teenager talk. As if I didn’t have reason enough to lament our little girl being ready for a junior size Razor scooter. 😉 LOL

          • Kazzi

            If that is all you are worried about at the moment that is good… wait until the ‘real’ worries start… yes the fashion, the mob phones, makeup.. oh the joys of having an empty wallet… but it is all good in a very sarcastic sort of way.

      • Richard G.

        No doubt. 😀 I respect that. You are traditional AND self-employed, and you don’t have to enter the workforce and take orders from someone else for a freaking paycheck either. You got your own little hustle on the side.

        In other words, you are a stay-at-home mother, all the while running your own business, which helps to ease your husband’s financial burden. I am pretty sure any man would appreciate that, especially if times were different, and relations didn’t become the mockery that it is today.

      • The Enlightener

        “I’m pretty similar; most would consider me traditional but I do own a home business and work at home & occasionally sell my products face to face at the farmers market and craft shows. My daughter goes with me when I’m selling and is going to be marketing her own special item (“magic eggs” as she calls them) at my booth this year.”

        THAT is the kind of thing married women should be doing. Not someone like Paige, who has too much idle time on her hands.

        It would also be nice if men and women didn’t have to work full time, though that may be more of a challenge with kids. Why spend 40-60 hours a week slaving away for money you don’t need? Do you really need that much money?

        Wouldn’t it be better if you and your husband were able to spend half the time you would have spent working to fill the pocket’s of the greedy corporatocracy, making the world a better place instead?

        See here:

        Also note that when I say “free time is a waste on the vast majority of women, but can be invaluable for a man in improving himself and helping make the world a better place,” you are very likely one of the exceptions.

        How many other women spend their free time so well, bringing such insights into an area such as the manosphere, dominated by men? I do know some, who are Mormon and Catholic. They understand that marriage is a partnership. A lot of women don’t seem to. The ones who do, tend to be in a more “traditional” marriage.

        • http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com Paige

          What makes you think I have too much idle time?

          Keeping up with everything I need to do is exhausting…and I am pregnant with my 6th child. If I had so much idle time I wouldn’t be so dependent on caffeine.

          • The Enlightener
          • The Enlightener

            “Researchers studied pregnant mice for 48 hours. Mice given caffeine produced embryos with a thinner layer of tissue separating some of the heart’s chambers.

            The researchers then examined the mice born from these groups to determine the long-term effects on the offspring. All of the adult males exposed to caffeine as fetuses had an increase in body fat of about 20 percent, and decrease in cardiac function of 35 percent.”

        • hestia

          Wouldn’t it be better if you and your husband were able to spend half the time you would have spent working to fill the pocket’s of the greedy corporatocracy, making the world a better place instead?
          That’s the goal and part of why we both slave away now. My husband is likely staying in the Army until retirement (he doesn’t have much time left when the current contract is up) and then we both hope to pursue career opportunities that would allow us to help others. He already works in trauma medicine and I have great interest in speech pathology. We both may still be earning a paycheck then but will have more flexibility to do what we want to thanks to making wise financial choices now.

          We also want to be sure we’re on stable enough financial footing to take of our parents when the time comes. They’re all in great health and are fairly young now but that may not be the case in the future.

          • The Enlightener

            Understood. We must all make sacrifices, doing what we have to do, not always what we want to do. Then again, when so few others are willing to help people, are we the real suckers?

          • hestia

            I’d say no as they’re are immense rewards in loving others simply for being your fellow travelers in life and for the sake of loving life itself. (Zed wrote a bit on this on TS: http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/11/02/the-art-of-loving/)

            Yesterday we had bad storms tear through our area, including one tornado that missed our street by less than a mile. After we got the ‘all clear’ my husband and I loaded up our trunk with his medic bag, axes, the chainsaw, and water bottles and juice boxes and went out to see if anybody needed any help. There was a lot of damage on one particular street including one house that had three large trees that fell on the house.

            Shortly after we arrived to help the family who owned the home more and more people arrived with rakes, saws, ladders, tarps, and all the tools we’d need to get our neighbor’s home secured. I called around to find a pizza place with power and had a whole stack of pizzas and about ten liters of pop sent over for everybody who was working. Another woman ran home to bring paper cups and plates, ice water and more drinks. There was just enough sunlight to get all the debris removed from the roof and yard and the holes in the roof patched.

            Nobody out in the yard “wanted” to be there is the “oh this is so happy and great” sense of the word but everybody wanted to be there for a neighbor going through a crisis situation. Knowing that we were part of those who eased his burden is the reward for loving others in this instance.

            I firmly believe those who never give a helping hand to others or sacrifice on their behalf are the ones who are missing out. Being part of real human community is among one of the biggest losses IMHO and one most people don’t even realize.

            If you haven’t read “The Art of Loving” which zed recommended over on TS you really should. I think you might really appreciate the book especially the argument that consumer society harms the ability to love and with it our very humanity itself.

    • BeijaFlor

      Kazzi – Hestia – you two are exceptional. And you are exceptions.

      I don’t believe Paul had the likes of you in mind at all, when he wrote yesterday’s excoriation or today’s explanation. I think – it appeared to me – that he took pains to make it clear; he was ‘blessing out’ the entitlement princesses who married to be kept on a pink pillow, as my dear departed mother once put it.

      You both of you sound like the kind of woman who makes it all worthwhile. My hat’s off to you.

      • Kazzi

        Thanks for that BeijaFlor… I know Paul wasnt pointing the finger nor hand at us. But it does take a stab at all women and some of the points did actually ‘hurt’ to think that women around the world are being brought up like this.. and it is wrong.. when there are women like ourselves who are not like that at all… but we are the ‘minority’ and that is a very sad fact.

        • Herbal Essence

          Well here’s another problem: often good men think they’ve found a good traditional woman but then after a few years she does a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde on them.

          No doubt, there are good women who make good wives. But how are men supposed to find them, and believe with reasonable certainty she’ll stay that way?

          Neither men nor women are perfect. We are all flawed creatures. The problem is, women simply have too much power in the feminist western world to be trusted.

          No, not every woman is like that. But it’s a calculation of risk vs. reward and women don’t come out on the winning end in this day and age.

          • Kazzi

            They are found by this. Men ask the questions first ie: where do you see yourself in 5/10/20 years time. What are your goals in life etc.

            Too many men speak about themselves first and you will find that the women will agree with everything they say… even if they dont. Ie: that they love the sports you follow, that they want so many children (or will say they dont want children yet.. but still fall pregnant quickly – to ‘cement’ the marriage).

            Women always say… oh men they change.. but its not the men who change… they still have the same ideals, same dreams etc from the word go. It is women who change their minds in what they want… just like their hair style or clothing.

            Men can see themselves in 20 years time… women honestly can see anything past 1 – 5 years.

            Women want to get with a guy for who he is at that particular time … but always end up ‘wanting to change him’… and that is where women get it wrong… totally wrong. If they liked the guy then… that is what you get… not a ‘push mower’ that you want to change into a ‘ride on mower’…. it doesnt happen.

            The ones who do change are the manginas who bow down to all the womens demands/rants and raves. They do this so as not to ‘upset her’. Crap. Have the balls to stand up to her and say ‘Enough is enough’. When we met you knew what I was like, what I liked and how I acted … so stop trying to friggen change/mould me into something that I am not…

        • Donn

          “minority”? Try more so rarity bordering on non-existent species.(but don’t take this to mean you’re special either.)

  • Bev

    There is in Australia a woman called Sue Price who has run a website called the mens right agency. She set up this site long before many men new what MRM meant. She has worked tirelessly over the years as an advocate for men. Putting in submissions to government attending inquires etc. This to the point that when contentious legislation or issues are raised she is asked to comment by the media. All that said one of the things she is an advocate for is probably a good example of what Paul talks about.
    She would like all babies to be DNA tested at birth and that this information be a requirement as to proof of fatherhood to be enter on the birth certificate. She is in other words seeking to somewhat level the playing field of reproductive rights which would disadvantage some women. She has been attacked by feminists naturally as it would somehow impinge on womans rights. However interesting she has been attacked by women who claim they are not feminists and have traditional ideas about marriage. The line being “it would remove trust between marriage partners and could undermine a loving relationship”. Also “the children may lack financial support and suffer if the father cannot be identified by the mother”. They are all for men but dont want women privileges reduced or force women to accept responsibility for their actions.

    • Pankaj

      If that is what she is doing, she is doing the right thing. Except for the unwitting contribution she might make to bolstering the case for extortion of men-who-aborted-their pregancy. I don’t want to enslave women because the feminists and chivalrists have enslaved men.

      No tit for tat .. if I have my way, rather “go to hell with that” for feminists and chivarlists.

    • Kazzi

      The only problem I see with that is the ones who have had a child thru ‘donor sperm’. These men have donated it voluntarily. When it comes to Donor’s – it should be stated on record that is was just that.

      I suppose it would also put the minds at ease for men who are ‘unsure’ if it is theres. And that way it would stop all of this rowting of claims by women just to secure child support payments when it was never ‘his’ in the first place (and how many times have we read that story – and she never has to pay one cent back).

      It is too easy now for the women to become pregnant. Look at how many incentives she now has at her finger tips… as well as the ‘financial gain’. The government pay outs, paid mat leave. Oh if only I got any of that when I had my 4 children. No we never relied on government money to have children.. we saved our money up so that we could provide for the children.

      And of course Sue Price would be attacked by womens groups. The only reason would be ‘ oh but women dont lie about who the father is’…. B/shit. How many times have we also heard… one women, 4 – 6 kids and 4 -6 different fathers and some she would have a clue who they were.. and they all live in ‘Brodie, Mt Druitt etc’….

      It is every mans right to demand to have their children DNA tested.

  • Kazzi

    As I was sitting here re-reading a lot of these posts (as well as listening to my washing machine weerrreee away), I was thinking about quite a few things.
    It came across me, that so many women think that they are so hard done by. They have been brought up to think that women have been so oppressed over the centuries. Well sorry but I beg to differ on that.

    Here is what I would like to see happen. Lets get all the femanizis together. Lets give them – yes give them around 100 or even 1,000 acres of land.
    On that land will be trees, a river and maybe even a few dams on it… so that the land can support crops.

    There are no buildings, there is certainly no township – closest one would be 100 miles/200 km away. With that there are NO essentials what so ever. No roads, no electricty. But on it will be 5 horses, a couple of cows, goats, and chickens. Oh to be nice – there would be one fire pit started but it must then be maintained – because if the fire goes out… lets see them start it again with no matches/lighters.

    We as a society will provide each women with $100 each – no more, no less. With this pool of money let them try and build up a society of todays standard without the help of any man. No manginas, no white knights.

    They will have to build, houses, stores, provide clothing, grow crops etc. Yes you can pool your money together – someone can ‘ride’ to the nearest town to buy things… but you will have to find a way of bringing it back without the help of any man.

    These women think that they do not need men. Well I beg to differ. If it was not for men, women would not what they have today.

    Who is it that went down the coal mines. Who are the ones who built up all this infrustructure that we have today. Who are the ones who made the nails, chopped the trees – to build houses etc, killed the animals – to provide food, who are the ones who built the wagons, then trains, then cars and planes… Who are the ones who have made medical history – to help women with child birth and even to the point of ‘not having children’??? If women of today think that they can do all these things.. well let them try.. and let us see how fast they fall flat on their faces.

    Women – get it thru your thick friggen skulls. You can not survivie one year without the help of men. Why not thank them, rather than chastising them to the point of hating them.

  • http://none Atlas Reloaded

    How fitting it is, that the latest “all-chick” feminist action movie is entitled “Sucker Punch”??

    • Herbal Essence

      “Sucker Punch” is the Kool-Aid men drink that makes them want to get married.

    • Zuberi

      Sucker Punch is for delusional haddocks who clap like demented seals whenever men get trashed by females. That genre of movies should’ve died out in the 90’s but the manginas and feminazis couldn’t get enough.

  • Keyster

    The “traditional” woman is in panic because she sees that feminism has finally broken the masculine spirit to provide and protect her. Like so many have said before, “Where were you 20 or 30 years ago when all this was being set up?”.

    They kind of liked the power behind feminism, while staying at home cleaning and cooking a few hours a day. Now men are turning away and the SoCon gals see their meal ticket, their once privilaged place as “home-maker”, diminish…and with it the nuclear family.

    It was never that great a deal for men anyway. All it took was giving “the little woman” UNEQUAL legal power over hubby, to break the camel’s back once and for all. The SoCon gals, led by Phyllis Schlafly, had their chance to save the family and they blew it. Apparently even they could never be loud or organized enough to overcome it. It was meant to be, and now its too late.

    • Herbal Essence

      Speaking of Phyllis Schlafly, has anyone here read her new book? I’m REALLY curious if she:

      1. Calls for divorce law, family law, domestic violence law, and “marital rape” law to be reformed.
      2. Acknowledges that men have good reason to stay single.

      I haven’t seen it at my local bookstore or my library yet.

      • Bizzman662

        She runs The Eagle Forum online. I like ol Phyllis. She seems to have the right intentions. She is for Family, Men and against Feminists and what they are doing.

    • Zuberi

      The marriage strike is doing more damage than any mangina/feminist wants to believe. In fact it’s doing so much damage that the prostitutes of pop culture are writing books that bash and criticize men for not getting with the program. I believe one of the books was called “Man Up”. The correct title for the book should have been “Wipe her ass, or else.”

  • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

    I’m feeling you, but at the same time, see the difference between ideals and what pans out in real life.

    In real life, there are no altruists. Everyone acts in their self interest, even supposed martyrs.

    I’m no martyr. If I’m unwelcome in a movement, then I’m not contributing to it. I either just have some popcorn and enjoy the apocalypse or solve the problem my own way, as best as possible.

    This is one of those situations where it seems like women (much like anyone belonging to a type of hereditary elite class during a revolution) are damned if we do, damned if we don’t, and even damned even if we do double duty while hoping to restore something like a sustainable order. The fact that we carry whatever it is in our blood that makes us a kind of natural enemy means our sympathy is irrelevant.

    There is no way to gain your “respect” but making the same choices as the harpies who are making your lives miserable day to day and stomping on your rights and ours.

    It’s disappointing to me because it kinda means there’s nowhere to run. I have nowhere it’s safe for me to just be a woman. You don’t seem to get that we need you guys to feel safe to be men so that we feel safe to be women. Damn right it’s in our self interest. It’s in our interest to make sure our husbands and boyfriends and our sons and other male relatives are okay in this world so we can be okay in this world.

    The vast majority of us women, despite the pile of papers that scaffold the current feminreich, have never had and never will have the luxury of being pampered princesses. Aside of the economic realities, there is the desire to have a life, very closely related to the will to power.

    Maybe the bridge between men and women has just been burned so badly that even when we’re doing the right thing to the best of our abilities, it’s kinda meaningless on the larger scale. We’re just lucky if we find one guy who doesn’t have his head up the mainstream’s ass, and should not try to help anybody else. Cool. I know how to shut up and look pretty. Well, not so much the looking pretty, but the shutting up I can do.

    Just don’t forget that we’re out here. Peace.

    • Herbal Essence

      Nicole- I’ve read quite a bit of your stuff and I have a lot of respect for you.

      I agree with you that humans are ultimately self-interested. And yes, self-interest is surely a part of it. Women want government programs for their welfare. Women want special privileges. Women want access to alpha males and cooshy jobs. And so on…

      But the level of female devotion to Feminism seems to be a form of collective violence against a perceived enemy. Women seem to be pushing for revenge against the penis people. Even if the penis people are her father, or her brothers, or her S.O., or her own son. The penis people have to be punished and controlled, because the vagina people are allegedly abused, or were in the past.

      My own mother, who is normally a very sweet woman, told me the threats and misandry I face in society are regrettable but not that big of a deal. And a necessary correction to “the abuse of women in the past.” Whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. So I, her son, am revenge fodder because some woman, somewhere, whom she may have never met, was abused by one of the penis people. And I have heard many, many women express sentiments like this. Self-interest?

      • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

        “My own mother, who is normally a very sweet woman, told me the threats and misandry I face in society are regrettable but not that big of a deal. And a necessary correction to “the abuse of women in the past.” Whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. So I, her son, am revenge fodder because some woman, somewhere, whom she may have never met, was abused by one of the penis people. And I have heard many, many women express sentiments like this. Self-interest?”

        Self interest perhaps, but in the way of Stockholm syndrome. I got an eerily similar speech from my mom about how slavery at least brought many Africans who wouldn’t otherwise be Christians, to Jesus.

        I felt like vomitting, and that solidified my decision to explore Vodun.

    • The Enlightener

      Men need to expect more from women and women need to realize that it’s not all about them. Marriage is supposed to be a partnership.

      That doesn’t mean women need to spend all your free time working for the corporatocracy, but it does mean that men and women need to work out what makes the most sense for them, and that free time should be spent doing something meaningful, as with Hestia above.

    • Donn

      “Maybe the bridge between men and women has just been burned so badly that even when we’re doing the right thing to the best of our abilities, it’s kinda meaningless on the larger scale. We’re just lucky if we find one guy who doesn’t have his head up the mainstream’s ass, and should not try to help anybody else. Cool. I know how to shut up and look pretty. Well, not so much the looking pretty, but the shutting up I can do.

      Just don’t forget that we’re out here. Peace.”

      I can only hope for the day when a woman’s every move isn’t worshipped by a legion of idiots. Do not act like you have any difficulty, your gender paves the way for you wherever you go, and you can take down an admitted male supremacist with ease(but if I even try to take on a feminist I’m labelled “sexist” or “hostile to women”.) Even your looks aren’t important, as even the ugliest girl well still have the aforementioned legion of idiots on their beck and call, whereas an ugly guy will be labelled a creep, his reputation assassinated, and become a social outcast.

      “If I’m unwelcome in a movement then I’m not contributing to it”, spare me. If you wanted a kiss up party you can go elsewhere, I can’t tell you all the race-baiting bullshit I’ve read on mra blogs and websites, especially by idiots like Firepower, and have to resist saying “Not all black people are like that”. Though there’s mras whose necks I want to wring, we all are moving to the same/similar goal and I can willingly put that aside. Your gender’s champions can only prosper if people stand by and do nothing, and that’s exactly what they’ve been doing.

    • Bev

      I reply not to criticize but perhaps to educate. You state you were not a pampered princess. But you are and though maybe not in worldly goods or happyness. You have been given power and much responsibility has been removed from your shoulders by feminists and their ilk. The point is whether you chose to use it or not it’s still there, whereas men do not have that power (and never have except for a few) so it a state of denial. Only you can decide which way to jump it not a case of damned if you do damned if you dont.
      When you have decided you should as far as possible stick to it. Both paths can cause you grief however I can only state the red pill (reality) will give you more grief as you will come in for more conflict. Just perhaps in the end you can see the world as it warts and all and be able to say to yourself I did my bit (small as it may be) and be stronger, more self sufficient and a happier person. regards Bev

    • Keyster

      “This is one of those situations where it seems like women (much like anyone belonging to a type of hereditary elite class during a revolution) are damned if we do, damned if we don’t, and even damned even if we do double duty while hoping to restore something like a sustainable order. The fact that we carry whatever it is in our blood that makes us a kind of natural enemy means our sympathy is irrelevant.”

      That’s true. YOU are the REAL victims of feminism. Your mothers and grandmothers bought into the propaganda without considering the unintended consequences. Women were supposed to be just as good as men, if not better, at everything men did. And it was all men’s fault for not permitting them to express this. Turns out it’s a all a BIG LIE.

      Men are figuring it out, we’ll get by and GTOW or whatever.
      You female Red Pill takers are just now seeeing you and your daughters will be left in the lurch. You’ll HAVE to be just like men and compete just like men just to survive. Not so nice is it?

      • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

        Keyster, actually we’ve been in the lurch for quite some time now. The thing is that some of us are figuring out why that is, and that’s what we’re pissed about. It wasn’t just that these things naturally developed with secularism, and that this is just the price one must pay for progress. It was a political takeover by crazy ideologues pushing anti science “ideals”.

        So we’re already butched up. We’ve been paying the price since we were put in holding pens full of underparented peers for 8+ hours a day. It’s not like any of this is brand new or something. It might seem new to you, but for my daughter whose first punishment in school was after having to fight a boy almost a foot taller and much stronger than her, it’s old news to the second generation already…so old that she won that fight from tips she got from her mom (me) on how to survive such situations.

        This is what I mean about how things pan out in real life. In real life, people will do whatever they need to do to survive. Those noodle armed umpteenth generation rich girls who haven’t had to do anything remotely resembling hard work in their whole lives may be too weak to live without men, but the majority are the worker descendants of workers. Historically, we were already forced to do a lot of things without men due to death, wars, and the kind of work men do, often far from home. So having to be tough is nothing new.

        Thing is, just like after a hard day of working for someone else who treats him like a machine, he likes to come home to someone who treats him like a man, women want to come home and be treated like a woman. Some of us understood, even in the context of feminism, that we’re all in the same boat. We’re told all sorts by the media, but we don’t hate men, and that’s why some of us find our way here. We were already in a hard situation that was made even worse by feminism. The facts of life haven’t changed, just the approach to them, but that means a lot in how people go about dealing with them, which is currently the wrong way.

        Now, though I would find a pampered life insanity inducingly boring, if a guy can afford to give a woman that, then more power to him. If a woman pulls her weight in that arrangement, more power to her.

        Those people are a far, far cry from normal folks though. In my opinion, they’re irrelevant to men’s rights except as it has to do with divorce laws, but only to a small degree. The guys most damaged and most often damaged by the biased divorce and domestic violence laws are normal dudes who barely make enough to pamper themselves, much less someone else.

        Traditional women are mostly dating and marrying guys like this. They have the duty, if they decide to stay at home (which often means working at home these days) to make sure they’re living within their means. As far as I can see, most are doing that well. Maybe I have a different perspective than many westerners of this because I live in Israel, a country that’s basically western, but has a lot of traditional Arab, Jewish Orthodox, Bedouin, and secular attachment style families in it. So I see up close what traditional women live like, and “pampered” is not the word I’d use for them.

        Their husbands make what other guys do in the same jobs, but it has to be stretched out with more children. To have a washing machine and other major appliances is rare for these people.

        So when someone starts in on traditional women, these are the kinds of women I’m thinking of…Sweating in the middle of summer with no air conditioning, washing diapers in the bathrub by hand, making bread on a gas taboon, and trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents, being told that they’re wrong because they don’t pay the daycare to take half what they would make working outside.

        As I said before, everybody’s welcome to their opinion, but I just find this particular one, that traditional women are looking for an easy life rather than just one more suited to the natural abilities and roles of women, to be one of those luxury opinions rich urban Americans have because they’ve never lived around traditional people.

        • Raven01

          Wow, just wow. So far off.
          “It might seem new to you, but for my daughter whose first punishment in school was after having to fight a boy almost a foot taller and much stronger than her, it’s old news to the second generation already…so old that she won that fight from tips she got from her mom (me) on how to survive such situations.”
          The most-likely reality is the boy didn’t fight as he would another boys but fell victim to chivilrous intentions and stuck pretty much to defence. Otherwise your daughter would have ended up with a shiner at the least if not missing teeth or worse.

          As for war-widows “surviving on their own. Bullshit. They got cheques sent to them by men….. drawn on money taken from yet other men.

          And there is NO “brand” of feminism that does not hate men, some are just more open about it than others. If you take away the mythical boogeyman of the “evil patriarchy” feminism falls flat on its’ lying face.

          And sorry even “rich dude” should have no obligation to continue to “pamper” someone just because they used to fuck them. If she wants continued support she should at the very least offer to stop by a few times a week for blowjobs and it is up to him if he is willing to accept that arrangement.

          The traditional men and women in your last two paragraphs are a very rare exception in western society. A V 1.0 or V1.1 type of marriage, and frankly feminism simply does not exert any power in those cultures. To try to do the same thing in Canada, the US, the UK, most of europe, or Australia with todays laws would be foolish at best …. for the man atleast.

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            No, actually I’ve taught my daughter like you hopefully teach your sons that real life is not the movies. If you’re facing an opponent who you know can kick your ass if you let them, don’t wait for them to actually land a punch. When they raise up, and you know an attack is going to happen, take them out quickly.

            She hit him twice before he knew what happened, and bloodied his nose, as she was taugh. “Cut off the head, and the body will fall.”

            There is no chivalry in underparented kids of any gender. Wake up. We’re already looking at a situation of girls having to defend themselves because no guy is going to step in to help her. None of my daughter’s male classmates, in the time that he was calling her names or pushing her, stepped in. She was on her own and did what she had to do.

            You stupid, sheltered suburbanites think the whole world is like your cul de sac. It’s not.

          • Raven01

            Your daughter may not be a victim of feminism so much as a product of it and a bully to boot.
            And tehre is no call for insulting people with slurs like calling them stupid for not jumping when you say or asking how high.
            Your ad hominem tactic is very reminicent of the usual feminist BS.

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            No, my daughter is the product of being the child of two martial artists plus a stepfather who is also a martial artist.

            People should not put their hands on her if they don’t want to get hurt.

            He put his hands on her. He got hurt. We did not feel that this was worth going to the police over because we do our own policing because we don’t trust the system to be fair. We figured he learned well enough not to pick on people he assumes are weaker than him…or at least not to assume that weaker is the same thing as less combat prepared.

            Though we would have trained her in the martial arts even if we were living in Africa, the fact that we live in a western country where a combination of feminist and Anglo-ized magical thinking makes some people believe that they are superior and this somehow makes them immortal or something, necessitated it for reasons other than preserving warrior traditions.

            …and this is why I have issues with people ragging on traditional women. Some traditional women take our traditions seriously and are not slacking off on the job or pampered American suburbanites crying about one group of privileged bubble residents being a little more privileged than another.

            In other words, the fact that your masculinity has been undermined is kind of the canary in the coalmine for the rest of the world. When it has gotten to the point that you don’t even know what a traditional woman is, but you hate it because it has “woman” as the second word, you’ve now entered an entropic situation…a similar situation to the self pitying feminists of the 1930’s.

          • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

            Traditional usually means gender roles, but I don’t consider that to be any definition of masculinity or femininity.

            I don’t like gender roles, they’re a bad deal for men.

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            You’re welcome to opt out of that bad deal…not just welcome, but you’d be okay opting out.

            While feminism has been shrieking for blood and taking most of the credit, secularism still chugs along.

            This is a good time, if we can get people to stop drinking the koolade, for men to make manhood pretty much whatever works for them.

            Awhile back, I watched a documentary about Abraham Lincoln wherein some speculated that he might be Gay because he was very close to other men to the point of sharing a bed with good friends. If he was, then I’d be okay with it, but I don’t think this was the case.

            Men used to be closer back then. They leaned on each other more. Yet these were traditional men…more cool with each other than most men are today almost anywhere else in the world.

            So maybe you’re not as far from your real traditional gender role as you think. You’re not supposed to be some kind of machine or emotional log or provider-bot.

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            Oh, and by the way, even though we could have, we did not press charges against the boy who tried (and failed) to beat her up for the crime of being Black, non Jewish, and not sucking his cock on demand.

            We figured he got punished enough. That’s what we did for men’s rights that day.

            If that’s not good enough then that’s just tough. It’s as good as you’re going to get. None of us is going to lay down to get stomped on by racists just because some of them happen to be male.

          • Raven01

            You want a hero cookie for “not pressing charges” while openly admitting your daughter assaulted him. She THOUGHT he MIGHT strike her she CLAIMS.

            Glad to see you still feel entitled to that pussy pass but chose not to use it since getting away with common assault was enough for you.

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            Like I said, bubble boy, it’s as good as you’re going to get.

          • Raven01

            Well stomp your feet and off to your room and your canopy bed then princess. Clearly there is no point in talking to someone that is so willing to convict a boy on the say so of a girl and then expects kudos for not charging him.

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            If someone puts their hands on me in violence, I don’t care how hard his life has been. I’m taking him out.

            In a sense, I am a kind of a princess in the Darwinian sense. I was graced with the natural gift to fight, and passed it down to my offspring.

            If you’re expecting pity, don’t.

            I have no pity for self pitying humans of any gender because you’re both just looking for an escape from the natural order.

            There is none.

          • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

            “escape from the natural order”

            What is the “natural order”?

          • Donn

            The natural order that has you at her feet while she drinks Mai Tais with Javier.

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            Denis, the natural order is that he or she who can kick the most ass and control the resources gets to decide what’s going to happen.

            Those who can run shit get to run shit.

            Feminists have been trying and failing to get around that simple fact of life for around about a century now. It would be a shame for men to make the same mistakes.

            One day you may be able to grow babies in an incubator, and synthesize breast milk, and maybe even create virtual reality mothers to be more perfect female role models than any flesh and blood woman could ever be.

            To survive until that day however, you will need men and women who are strong enough not to be herded into the current system or herded using some sort of reverse psychology into unnatural “solutions” for the messiness that comes with living on the planet Earth.

            Those people are people like me, and like the non self pitying woman who sees women all around her getting divorced and half of almost nothing, and decides to stay with her man, keep making her pitas and rocking her babies.

            The natural order can be seen in people who can live without the infrastructure. If that’s not you, then that’s your problem.

            …and I would consider it a problem.

            My daughter, who eats wild greens and animal fat often, kicked the ass of a presumptuous soy muncher with a bitch mother and a mangina dad.

            The fact that my daughter was the female in that particular encounter is, to me, meaningless compared to the fact that my daughter was raised in a natural household…not the most classically traditional, but natural, and that boy was raised by feminists.

            Girls raised by men are stronger at least in the sense of combat readiness, than boys raised by fembots.

            Natural. Order.

          • Donn

            Also wanted to add that I while I have much respect for female martial artists/combat athletes, blowhards of any gender are completely pathetic. Your lauding of yourself that borders on vicarious living through your daughter is pitiful.

            And sure enough, it only took a little prodding for the pure feminism, entitlement, and sense of having power over others came through, well done. You kept your veneer up much better than most.

          • Donn

            While I do agree on the “might makes right”/woe to the vanquished yada yada point, there is this little thing called laws that do prevent you from just going around and punching people out in this day and age, just like they prevent me from being able to bash blowhards over the head with a kanabo.

            For someone who claims to be so into martial arts, you sure have a huge head, and even the most sportified systems like Boxing(yes it is an ma) or Muay Thai stress that having a big head is NOT the way to go. There was a story posted on the spearhead a while back, about a female marine who was just like you and died from a body slam. Point of the story is, re-adjust your attitude, there’s always someone out there who has your ticket, and your ego may very well be what stops you from surviving that encounter.

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            Donn, I’m discussing this only because it’s relevant to the topic. Apparently you and a few others are confused about what a traditional woman is.

            Your definition of a traditional woman is basically a gold digger. FYI, gold diggers don’t marry broke ass men. They also don’t like to work in or out of the home.

            I don’t need to live vicariously though my daughter. I have my own scars. I also use my real name, and any time you’re wondering whether or not I really am, and was in even better days, as much of a bad ass as I write, you are welcome to do a little more prodding and research.

            You might also take some pleasure in knowing that my daughter’s father is an even badder ass than I could ever wish to be.

            It’s a relativity thing. We are not all equals and do not all come from equal stock. If you want your kids to be as bad ass as my kids, don’t feed them junk and don’t let them be lazy.

            Don’t hate a player…

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            Oh, and Donn, don’t go cursing the laws of the oppressors and then go running back under your oppressors’ skirt to make a needless argument against someone. That’s just lame.

            I don’t trust the police, so I don’t depend on the police to solve my problems. If I have to do some time for breaking someone who tried to break me, I can do that time with a smile.

            I know I can’t kick everybody in the world’s ass, and definitely not most men’s. So I don’t run around getting up in people’s faces and pushing them. That’s because being intelligent is part of being fit.

            If someone else is stupid, that is not my problem. I am not letting them kick my ass out of pity for their stupidity.

          • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

            Thanks for explaining Nicole, essentially it’s survival of the fittest. Humans have always been social animals and have always worked together for mutual benefit. In less developed cultures, strong families were required for children’s survival. In modern, socialist cultures, families are not a necessity and very risky for men. A traditionalist housewife is an even greater risk.

            If young men are smart about surviving in the current cultural zeitgeist, they will need to avoid marriage or marry a higher wage earner.

          • Donn

            Haha, as do I also use my own real name. I’m just saying from martial artist to martial artist, keep things in perspective. I’m not doubting that you’d probably beat up some tough ones, but just because you’re victorious today doesn’t mean you will be tomorrow, which is why not only vigilance but humility is important too. If you noticed from my posts, I never once insulted your actual abilities, it’s merely the mindset. Though I also faced that problem when I started boxing a few years back, you get tired of the every couch warrior coming up to you and getting in your face, though in my case the minute I flatten them out I’d end up in jail. :X

            Back on a more relevant note, I think you’re the one who has no clue what an actual gold digger is. A gold digger will most definitely marry a broke ass bum if they don’t measure up enough for that hunk with $$$ they want, then when something better comes along they’ll ditch the sucker who married them, taking everything, kids included with them. Don’t forget the most basic thing, gold diggers are opportunists at heart, so they’ll even settle for a non-gravy train for the moment if it lets them get by.

          • Donn

            Nice try at an insult Nicole, however, I actually LAMENT the laws that stop retaliation, people have it too good when they think they can mouth off and say whatever they want, and their target not being able to check them for fear of legal retribution. But the “running under your oppressors skirt” comment was cute.

          • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

            Denis, men should definitely avoid legal marriage, and should even wage commitments carefully because of the legal situation. They should also be mindful that women can do all kinds of crazy when they’re angry or frustrated. Some mental illnesses women are more likely to get also start out looking like “normal” crazy.

            Getting with a higher wage earner is no protection, especially since inflated child support is the new alimony.

            Donn, I never said I was the greatest fighter in the world. You just assumed that I had a humility problem because I don’t have use for false humility and bother writing the requisite disclaimers not to unsettle anyone’s feelings of superioritaah.

            I’ve learned to be dismissive of people who call me a feminist just because I’m stronger than the average chick, and don’t apologize for this. I’m also pretty dismissive of people who think that it’s a good idea to ignore the facts on the ground, which is that feminism thrives because men are complicit, whether as manginas, patsies, or in the case of the rude classmate, self fulfilled prophecies of the monstrosity of males.

            The feminists want to say he’s just a boy doing what boys do, oppressing women. Some MRA’s want to say that he’s a victim of the system and fighting back (albeit against someone who had in the past defended him from bigger kids trying to beat him up).

            I say that he’s a victim in that he has been raised to believe that he is so superior to non Jews that a non Jew can’t kick his ass, and a victim of feminism in that his mom is a harpy so he feels he has to take out his anger about this on girls at school. So he’s confused, stupid, and headed for much bigger disasters than my kid’s fists.

            People who want to hate on me will hate on me. I can only do my best to be an honorable person and balance this with my and my family’s survival. Honor is why I care about men’s rights.

            However, if it’s counter to my survival, then as I said before, I can shut up and stay out of it. I just wanted to clarify my position, and allow others to do the same.

          • http://none Atlas Reloaded


          • http://none Atlas Reloaded

            Nicole I meant

    • vklaatu

      Point taken; just bear in mind that I’m here as a man for all men, including yours, while I really doubt you would give a damn about any of my friends. More often then not nowadays it’s becoming an issue that we as men, in order to become and remain men, must disconnect from women altogether.

  • Richard G.

    All I have to say from this point on is that women had the chance to stand by their men, to support their men when their men needed them the most. There was a time when a man didn’t mind being the provider for his family, while his wife tended to the child-bearing and tasks around the house that needed to be done. Both parties knew their what they had to do.

    But what happened? Unjust laws, which in every sense are illegal and unconstitutonal, were put into place to screw men over, and rob them of their children and assets. All of this at a womans say-so. This happened at record rates, and the very concept of marriage and family became a fucking mockery.

    Men were still expected to provide for the families that they became extensions of, instead of being the backbones. Men were expected to provide for their ex-wives that they no longer had relationships with, and children that they will never get to raise. In every sense of the word, men became slaves because of this arrangement, that they entered thinking that they would have the storybook families that they took pride in protecting and providing for. Lovely wives who would support them through thick and thin, and children that they would endow with knowledge and pass down their legacies to.

    For a man to enter in a relationship, presumably a marriage in the 21st century, is to literally sign their livelyhood away, and stay legally binded to woman who no longer has nothing to do with, and children who he will barely get access to in the event of a divorce. Many of these so-called “traditional” women had the chance to defend the very institution of marriage and the pillar that was the family unit.

    Men are too tired, angry, and dispirited to ever revive the family unit and normal male and female gender relations. We just want our freedom, and the total eradication of feminism and government control over our lives. Everything else will naturally follow and take it’s course.

    • http://voiceformen.com J3DIforce1

      I’m printing this out, putting it in a picture frame and its going on my wall. Men have paved the way for modern easy living through blood, sweat and death. When we finally say “ok dear, the coast is clear, you can roam the plains now with no fear”what do we get as a thank you? A feminist dildo shoved up our ass without any common courtesy of lube and a court order to submit.

  • Kevin

    Throughout the semester I have seen numerous women wearing a shirt that reads:

    I Am Strong
    Because I Am A Woman!

    Most men base their worth on their accomplishments.

    Most women basw their worth on their genitals.

    • http://none Atlas Reloaded

      Imagine the reaction they’d get if guys wore a t-shirt that said all that; “Because I am a man!”.

  • Kevin

    Some MRAs piss me off. Some forget that the “A” means “Activist”. That means actually doing something in the real world. It means speaking out in class against a feminist and getting blackballed by the university. It means intervening when you see a female co-worker verbally abusing a male co-worker and in return you get physically and verbally attacked by the crazy bitch. It means speaking out against your grandfather who has his head so far up his white knight ass that he could care less about his son (my uncle) when he comes over to visit with scratches on his face and tries to bullshit us by saying he tried to chase away some raccoons eating out of his garbage and they attacked him, when we all know that his psycho wife uses him as a punching bag. I get so fucking pissed off at the motherfuckers who don’t say shit when it counts, but in the privacy of their own homes they talk tough. Or certain women who post that women have it so hard and it is the men who don’t get it. Fuck them. This male bomb has fucking detonated. I you need me I will be sticking up for every one of you.

    • http://none Atlas Reloaded

      I don’t blame you for saying any of this man. I really don’t. I can just respond by saying that becoming an MRA( and yes I do see myself as that and very much) as caused me to look far more at myself than women. As so many feminists think ie “Uh, have you ever though of the problem being YOU?”

      It makes me look at where do I play a part. Where am I being a mangina? Wherein do I keep my mouth shut when I could have said something? Am I still catering to women? Etc. And, where do I ignore and disregard men like you who stick up for me against women..? I check guilty on every one of these at ONE time in my life .

      So, this is good, for me at least, to look at. Thanks.

  • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

    What is a traditional relationship?
    Modern technology has eliminated anything resembling the 1950’s. If it’s about gender roles that a woman stays home, then her job has gotten a lot easier than men’s and she needs to do more. Unfortunately, these gender roles are most often determined by women, because women have all the power in marriage. Feminism cannot be sustained without traditional feminine power, so remove gender roles and remove traditional feminine power.

    What about the Children?

  • Izzey


    You know I appreciate what you have said here, and you also know a lot more about me than anyone here, because we are friends. I revere the friendship, and have not come here because of that friendship alone. The fire in my belly brings me here. At times it is raging. I have been fortunate enough to love and be loved, by a father that left us at an early age. Also fortunate, that our mother never exercised her ‘gender privileges’ and ”nailed him to the wall’, or made us hate him, nor use any one of us for monetary or emotional blackmail. (Now, there is a woman you can admire.) She raised the four of us alone, and broke her ass doing it all.

    She has never asked for a free ride in her life. And never got one, either. I get my integrity from her. I get my ‘fuck you if you don’t like me’ attitude, (and creativity) from my dad. He never cared if you were impressed with him or not. He did it his way…he went his own way. I was destined to be here long before I knew what ‘here’ was, because of both of my parents.

    Losing the love of my life with an unborn child in my belly; furthered my education in heartache, despair, loneliness, and the fourteen hour workday.
    It gave me clarity. It made me see what I was made of. It also subjected me to a life without living….with very little reward. I have changed that of course, but my disdain for those little princesses out there, has never wavered. I refused to be one. I do not know how to be one.

    I have so much respect for men, because I have worked closely with so many. I now hire men, and they give me 100 percent or better, because there is respect given, and respect received, at all times.

    I did not expect everyone here to accept my presence. And that is their right. And I sure do understand it, because I don’t fucking trust many women either. Have only met a handful in my lifetime, that did not have an ‘entitlement agenda’. Hopefully that will change, and maybe I will celebrate some small contribution to that great accomplishment.

    I appreciate you mentioning my contributions, but they were never given to be acknowledged publicly. (Just my ‘swearword fundraiser’ and that was just waaaay to much fucking fun) 😉

    Thank you, my friend.


    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

      Too late. :) I could take down the post, but not for a New Yawker. Texans don’t roll that way.

      • Izzey

        We cool.

  • http://equalitythrouhghtruth.blogspot.com/ Jean Valjean

    I reject the very notion of the “real” man.

    I reject it firstly because it implies that if you are not real then you are somehow less or false. Every person with a penis must sign up for selective service and when the draft comes every person with a penis will be called “men” and face the draft. We are all disposable. None of us need to prove ourselves or fall on our swords to be entitled to the basic dignity and respect. The very notion of a “real” man conspires to make us think we deserve to be poor, abused, misused, exploited and disposable because we fail to measure up to the impossible standards set by other people–mostly women.

    And secondly I reject the notion of a “real” man because the moment we consent to this construct is the very moment we create the shackles that someone will place on us in the future.

    I am a man. I am already real. I deserve to be treated like a human being and not an expendable commodity to achieve the government’s political goals in war, not the beast of burden to service a woman’s every desire in exchange for a chance to reproduce. I am not an animal. I am not a rapist, or a wife beater or any of the other ugly and false demons that feminists portray men as.

    To me, whenever someone says “real man” or “man up” I do not hear those words. I hear “slave” or be a “better slave” because everything that constitutes a “real” man in our society are also the perfect attributes of a slave.

    Slaves should never hit their master.
    Slaves should work hard to earn their master’s favor.
    Slaves should accept it when their children are taken from them.
    A good slave will always work hard even if he is being sold down the river.
    Slaves should always listen to and obey their master.
    Slaves which have thoughts of their own that contradict what the master says should be punished.
    The master can strike the slave and even kill the slave and it is not a crime but if the slave should fight back or even defend himself he will be severely punished.

    See where I’m going with this?

    We are already real. So I reject any standard or idea that puts conditions on my being treated as an equal human being deserving of respect and dignity.

    I hope you will too.

    • Bev

      “Heroes” comes from the Greek word “serow”, from which
      we get our words “servant” and “slave”.

      Interesting isn’t it.

      • http://none Atlas Reloaded

        I never knew that! Wow. Thank you Bev-I can honestly say my view on tradtional roles has changed yet one more degree. Seriously.

  • Stu

    I think the problem facing women now is that they have, or allowed others (feminists) to lead society to believe that they can do anything a man can do…..and probably better. I never brought that, and never will. Men have achieved and done the things we have done and women have not mainly because………we can…..and they can’t.

    The big problem with leading people to believe that you have capabilities and powers that you do not have, is that if they buy it….they will have increased expectations of you. Expectations that you can’t live up too.

    I’m not talking about the exceptions here. There are always exceptions to every rule.

    Kazzi’s idea above is an example. Although we would have to make it something the size of a country. If it was done, none of the women who are full of saying…..we can do anything a man can do…..would want to go and live there……because they know they are faking it. They would only go and live there if it was a fully developed funcioning country with cities and infrustructure in place. Then they would demand that the resources and metarials to keep it going would be mined and produced by men elsewhere and shipped in. Then they would get another shock when the place started slowely falling apart…….and demand then men be brought in to keep the roads and footpaths maintained….repair the buildings……keept electricity and water running….etc etc. They would also demand that the “real goods” be shipped in……and what would this society provide for the rest of us that it was leeching off……nothing.

    When cave men starting inventing things, did they think…..if only we had some metal tools so we could cut that wood and carve that stone into usefull objects that we can construct other thing out of. Nope…..no zipping down to the local hardware to by yourself an axe so you can use it to cut that wood into a wheel. You’ll have to build a furnace…..find some iron ore…..work out how to generate enough heat to melt that iron out of that ore….then work out how to fashion that into what you need. Need a nail to hold two pieces of wood together…..no probs….only about 6 months of labor before you have found the required resources….and worked out how to produce a nail……and thats if you had an instruction manual……imagine if you had to discover and invent the means of doing it.

    And so it goes…one thing built upon another. Until we arrive at where we are now……a high tech society where women can imagine they can do anything a man can do. Put any random 100 guys on an Island with any random 100 radical feminists…..and no supplies brought in….no items from this world taken with them…..no communications with the outside world……no clothes….nothing. And you watch those radical feminists adopt traditional roles overnight. Given how removed both men and women are from the natural enviroment, neither would have the knowledge and skills to survive and build some sort of community…..most of both would die……but the survivers would survive mostly on the innovations and labor of men…and there would very likely be no survivers if men were not present.

    I don’t hate feminists for being women, or women for being women. I don’t blame females for being smaller, weaker, less logical, less rational, more emotional etc etc. Women are what they are. It’s the non acceptance of the facts and reality and promotion of falsehoods and lies that is the problem. Feminists deny mens superior utitility, while they live off it like parasites….giving us nothing but hate in return. They deny our superior logic, and capabilities where that is applicable like science and math and understanding complex mechanical, electrical things…….even though the evidence of this superior ability is everywhere all around us. They pretend that all this evidence is nothing else but proof of discrimination. Women use the fact that mostly men are on boards of companies as an example of this…..but why haven’t women built their own companies. It’s all about forcing men to give them what we have built.

    On that Island I was talking about. Lets say I clear some land, build a house, grow some food. I go fishing, hunting, etc etc. Then the women come along and say…..you get to live in a house, and have all this food on your doorstep instead of having to go scounging through the forest for bugs and worms to eat. This is discrimination…..it’s a mans world. But didn’t they have exactly the same opportunity as I had to do the same thing I done. Well….yes…..and no. The didn’t do it…..because they can’t. Do I hate them for their lessor abilities…..no…..but I hate them when they come and claim equal rights to what I have built.

    So, I cut a deal with one of the women……and say….well….either build your own house and grow your own food and fish for yourself……or…..what have you got that I want in return for what I can provide you. So we come to some arrangement…..if I like the deal…..then we agree and we go along……living happily ever after……or for as long as both of us uphold our end of the agreement. At any time she doesn’t live up to her end of the deal……i can boot her arse out and go back to looking after numero uno……or….find a deal with another woman who is more reasonable.

    This is the traditional woman. Works ok…..until this thing called the state comes along and starts interfering. Especially when this state is under the influence of the disgruntled women that did not want to give the men anything for their utility.

    The point is…..I should be able to choose who I will provide my services for…and what I will receive in return. The other person is free to accept or decline my terms. If it stayed that way…..neither can complain of being inslaved because or oppressed because both have to option of choosing not to enter an agreement at all.

    Well that’s how I see it. Traditional woman is only the enemy of men because she has been given the power to call the shots. If I can cut my services to her when she cuts her services to me…then there is no problem.

    • Bizzman662

      That was damn good Stu.

      Epic post you just made.

    • Andrea

      Thank you, Stu. You say what I try to convey so much better.

      I don’t want to work in a coal mine. I don’t want to collect the garbage. I don’t want to get up every morning and go sit and a desk and collect a paycheque while my kids languish in some daycare center.

      And if I HAD to do those things, I’m not sure I could. Not withut collapsing physically or going insane.

      That doesn’t mean I expect to be taken care of in exchange for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. I understand and fully embrace the idea that I have obligations, responsibilities and a “deal” that I must live up to, in exchange for my husband’s physical work.

      When MRA shut out women who are prepared to pay for men’s work in a fiar and sane manner, they are shutting out important allies. Only 40% of women with small children (under 5) in the US work outside the home. And fully 70% agree that mothers and babies should be together for the first years of life, and would stay at home if they could.

      Those are a lot of women depending upon a lot of men. Other women need to reach out to these women and raise their consciousness about MRA, and I hope to do that. It will be hard to be heard above a chorus of voices condemning women for being dependent on men, in principal. No matter who is doing the shouting.

      • Raven01

        “When MRA shut out women who are prepared to pay for men’s work in a fiar and sane manner, they are shutting out important allies. Only 40% of women with small children (under 5) in the US work outside the home. And fully 70% agree that mothers and babies should be together for the first years of life, and would stay at home if they could.”

        Reads, “Some man should pay for me to have the priveledge to do so”
        And quite frankly far more important than mommy being at home for the first year is the father being present throughout their life.
        Maybe you are trying, but the more you say the less I think you even grasp the basics.
        Also, still wondering where your husbands comments are? It seems odd that only you speak for your family situation.

    • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

      Now, this is rational. I don’t know about other places, but Israel has a solution.

      A woman can sign a waver of any marital/cohabitation “rights”. Feminists are currently pushing for civil marriage, but so far, we’re holding the line because it is legally unecessary and would place a burden on the system that could not be justified. Marriage is under religious authority, and they’re not doing the best job, but they’re doing the job.

      I am not sure if it would hold up in U.S. courts after actual marriage, but it might be enough to protect a man against fraudulent “common law” claims. If things start getting serious with your girlfriend, you could talk to a lawyer about making a test of her commitment to not being part of the problem.

      • Raven01

        I have been rational all along. Perhaps you don’t see it being too personally involved. And perhaps I over re-acted to insults (which I still consider a hinderance to adult discussion).

        US and Canadian law invalidates many pre-nups for having such content as you suggest are invalidated by family courts. It seems they believe women don’t know what is good for them and so can’t be held to a contract muchas a drunk, mentall challenged person, or child cannot be legally held to a contract……… And feminists call MRA’s misogynists!

        I’ve got many things on the go right now and haven’t had time to look up “civil marriage”. Is this the same thing as the common law marriage we have in North America or something even worse?

        • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

          Civil marriage is when the state determines that people are married. One gets a license from a government authority, and then performs the ceremony according to their rules, which are basically the minimum standards for the marriage contract.

          Here in Israel, the various religious authorities determine who is married according to their own rules which are according to their faith. The only time there’s a discrepancy is when the people are of different official faiths or there’s an eventuality that the state doesn’t cover, like multiple marriages of Muslims.

          If two people are of the same faith and their faith has “common law” marriage or cohabitant rights equal to spouse rights, then in order to not have those, the people must sign a waver. It’s basically that they wish to retain their individual status in spite of their religious authorities’ rulings.

          I agree that it does seem like they’re saying women are incapable of consenting to a contract. It’s messed up.

          This might however, be used against women in all sorts of cases. People could refuse to do business with or hire women because they apparently can’t be held to contractual obligations. They can’t say you’re discriminating because this is what the precedents say. One could start requiring male cosigning and validation for everything.

  • Stu

    Yeah, and I left the spelling mistakes and typos in cause that’s my trademark lol

  • Eff’d Off

    Please help.

    We need your feedback please.

    The latest from the ABC media in Australia has really done it now.
    Click –> http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/56808.html to see stuff like..

    “…society gets left with the oppressive, discriminatory results: the ongoing pay gap, the second-shift in the home, the sexual abuses and the unequal opportunities that stifle the talent and enterprise of those unlucky enough to be born with ovaries instead of dicks – for – brains.”

    No… this is not a miscreant post in the reply section, this is from the article written by Van Badham.


    I can’t speak for you on this last bit, but I never trust a chick that poses for a photo like this as seen here.

    • Raven01

      Gave that twit a piece of my mind, which is way more than when she sat down at the keyboard and typed that drivel.
      Thanks for the heads up.

      • Raven01

        Whoops pre-moderated like the CBC comments. Not much chance of me gifting this writer and her audience with even a portion of a brain.

        • Eff’d Off

          Thanks mate,

          God she’s a nasty piece of flotsam.

        • Quite Eff’d Off

          @ our Raven01.
          Your post on http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/56808.html was really great.

          Thank you mate from all of us.

          My post, (above) has been barred.

          @ all MRA’s,
          Please good men copy it and post it again under your name and ask why it has been truncated absolutely.

          We do this, only a few needed and I tell you it’s part of the process of activism.

          Call it your own write I don’t care so long as it is used like pinpricks against the pin headed pricks, ok.

          • Quite Eff’d Off

            Hang on,

            It’s the post below this one.


          • Raven01

            Thank you but I is my duty to speak out against any injustice. Otherwise I would be just as guilty as those actually practicing them.
            I wish the one they disqualified made it in though. Feminists would have burst into flame with that level of exposure to the truth like a vampire swimming in a pool of holywater wearring a garlic sunscreen.

    • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

      I made a few comments but pre-moderation puts the truth at a disadvantage.

  • http://none Atlas Reloaded


    Enough Women Are Like That! And That’s That .

  • Eff’d Off

    Posting a comment on this site is easy as you don’t need to register. Just post away.

    My post just now:


    Your comment, “unlucky enough to be born with ovaries instead of dicks – for – brains.” is misandric effluent at best.

    *Pay gap
    On ABC TV’s Q & A program on 7th March 2011, Mark Pannowitz, a Westpac employee, asked the following question of his CEO Gail Kelly. “Currently there is a 27 per cent pay difference between males and females in the finance sector. How is Westpac, planning to address this issue?”. Gail’s response – “that despite equal pay for equal work being completely entrenched at Wespac, there is still a gender pay gap – shows that the pay gap is caused by the work/life choices of male and female employees, not any mythical male conspiracy to pay women less for the same work.”

    When governments in the Western world do their research and show this to be a myth. Some studies show women ahead.

    *Second shift:
    No mention of working men coming home to a house with a non working spouse who insists they must “share” chores.

    *Sexual abuses:
    Sexual abuse is not a gender issue. We are told it is over and over again and how could we believe otherwise ? Again – research shows both genders in this activity in parity. Women more in some circumstances men in others. We don’t live in a rape culture we live in a rape accusation culture.

    *Unequal opportunities:
    Men are increasingly denied government resources in health, insur@nce, legal help, crisis care and education.

    I am extremely well read up on these matters and your untruths here are motivated by hatred and lime light indulgence.


    I urge you to take a few short minutes to post your thoughts on this extremely widely read blog.


    • http://none Atlas Reloaded

      What made me the sickest was the one who posted “Reality: In Australia one in three women have experienced sexual assault by the time they are 18. 97% of all sexual assault is perpetrated by men against women and children.

      There is a war going on, one that is seldom spoken of.”

      He/she is right about ONE thing, there is a war allright.

      • http://equalitythrouhghtruth.blogspot.com/ Jean Valjean

        A war seldom spoke of? Then why do I keep hearing about it all the time!

        • Tom M

          You do hear about the war seldome spoke of, right here – the war against men, society and liberty.

  • Zuberi

    Traditional marriage has been bastardized by the feminist collective and the state. Men and boys in this day in age are better off riding solo. Brotherhood is far stronger nowadays than traditional marriage.

  • Primal

    While I generally support condemnation of the conservative anti-feminists (like Phyllis Schlafly who noted that men have dog’s lives…ie one that no woman should ever aspire to) and agree that traditional feminists are even more dangerous than feminists, I believe we need to think this thing through. Men will always be better at fighting the battles, mining the coal and a thousand other dangerous, difficult and unpleasant jobs because we ARE biologically and socially superior to women in many ways that really matter. Societies that throw away male talent or that try to use women as substitute ‘men’ will tend to collapse over time when faced with societies that take full advantage of male superiority in the things that really matter.

    Therefore, rather than saying that no men should say fight the Taliban in Afghanistan (for women) we need to be sure that those who do are fully respected and honored appropriately somehow for the huge risks they run for us all (and particularly for the anti-feminists who give blow job or for feminists who fuck men over as a matter of course). One way to do this is to draft an ‘army’ of women whose job is to provide long term care (at low army wages) for those soldiers who come home broken. Another is to draft beautiful women who benefit most from male bravery to give blow jobs to heal the broken soldiers just as we now draft male soldiers for possible combat duty.

    Finally we might consider forming an army of female fuckers (preferably from feminist and anti-feminist shirker ranks) to complement the male fighters. That way we could offer our 72-virgin enemies an advance ‘payment’ to prevent suicide bombing or whatever. In India, they send out tame male elephants AND tame female elephants to cope with rampaging wild male elephants during the rut season. The tame male elephants are formed into gangs to fight the interlopers while single female elephants in heat are used to fuck the interlopers into ‘submission’. Bottom line is that both sexes use their best characteristics to share the dangerous or unpleasant work of defending the common good. Since we no longer need women to breed like retarded rabbits (with all the associated traditionalist coddling) why not start training ‘heavenly cats’ to complement our ‘devil dogs’ in combat. My guess is that average suicide bomber would be worn out before he had gone through even three really capable virgin-whores from the feminist or anti-feminist West.

    “Boot camp” could take on a whole new meaning as women were drilled in the feminine ‘martial’ arts. We could give our best ‘girls’ the Medal of Dishonor as we give our best ‘boys’ the Medal of Honor today. And we could watch those same ‘girls’ die on the streets as disposable cannon fodder just as we do the ‘boys’ today.

    • Primal

      Correction: ‘traditional feminists’ should be read ‘traditional anti-feminists’ above

      • http://none Atlas Reloaded

        I fail to see any discernable difference.

  • Stu

    Feminism was actually started by rich housewives with nothing better to do then sit around navel gazing and thinking up reasons to hate the world men built for them that they live in and do absolutely nothing worthwhile. They were the housewives that had servants, gardeners, housekeepers. And they say they had no power, but they seem to have been able to spend all their time causing trouble for their husbands while they lived off his earnings. They are the ones that started feminism, and the ones that run it now are pretty much the same breed of cattle

    • Mr. J

      Started, no doubt, by the southern slave-holder’s wives.

      • Mr. J

        And to think that poor southerners fought and died for those bastards in the 1860s.

    • Tom M

      and the WKKK – same feminist tactics and anti-male hysteria

  • chris

    Calling anyone that didnt like the tone a redbot is cheap and unnecessary.
    I agree with both pieces 100%, maybe would even take them further than you did Paul, Im no redbot. How silly, to dismiss someones opinion (which is what I thought we were about) because they disliked the tone and said so while AGREEING with the opinion you expressed.
    I dont know if you can see this, but you are walling off your group here. Its nothing like the whole “bigger tent” crap you hear in politics, Im all for MRM purity (meaning no compromise, especially that chivalry driven kind) in motive and view, but you and the regular folks who comment, the ones who seem to post first, and often, you guys have created a clique. I just know you will dismiss me as some compromised redbot or pro feminist troll of any other manner of intellectually lazy dismissals, but thats not me, or some others you guys dump on, in some ways strikingly similar to how feminists exert control of their sites, where if one doesnt not only agree, but agree with the exact same feelings in the written posts, the same overt anger and angst, here Id add clever sarcasms, you write people off.

    Its sad. I shouldnt have to join a “fucking” chorus to express solidarity with this group. And “dropping a few f bombs on their sacred cows was an expression that LITERALLY is too clever by half, I found no sacred cows in the piece for me, nothing was bothersome because derivatives of “fuck” appeared before the concept being discussed, but simply because for me it lowered the credibility of the real and important points, points that Im very glad you have broached.

    I too am sick and tired of ALL the ways of women saying “Im not a feminist let me offer my kind of succor to you men over there fighting back”…..its sick, unless and until they can EMPATHIZE, as opposed to some faux sympathize, they are either well intentioned but ignorant, or exploiting your good efforts still to draw positive attention back on themselves. Its a sort of reverse white knigh phenom, they can make men think they are cool, and get kudos from men, in some way it buttresses their “Im an independent strong woman” bullshit anyway

  • Mr. J

    I disagree with the person who said if men had more free time they would make the world a better place……….
    SOME men would, perhaps MANY men would, but I don’t believe MOST would.

    Most would spend the time watching football or baseball or basketball or getting “tickets” to go to “games” or car races(oh, yes, watching that on tv, too), endlessly yakking with other men about this tripe, sports scores, sports players who do what of value??……. playing golf, persuing personal hobbies that don’t benefit other men or anything else…………I could go on, but point made.

    I DESPERATELY wish I did not have to say that, but tell me I’m wrong.

    I suppose some will say that makes me a “mangina” for pointing that out, but thats real funny because I don’t excuse women for wasting their time watching tv or doing the useless garbage a lot, or most, of them do, either.

    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

      I have to agree entirely with you. I have said it a thousand times and I will say it again. Men have always had the authority, power and ability to shape this world. The world we live in now may be at the supposed behest of women, but it was not women who did it. It was men.

      It continues to be men, and it will always be men until enough of us break the hypnotic spell of pussy and wake up.

    • Izzey

      Please tell me you are just kidding.
      You mean men may actually get to enjoy some frivolous, carefree, non-productive ‘down time’, that may relieve stress….and prolong their life?

      Yup…you’re just kidding.

      • Izzey

        Hmmm…it seems Mr. Elam and I saw that post differently.

        • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

          Well, I think there is merit in both views, Ms Izz.

          Thing is though, while men certainly deserve downtime from their work, as do women, we still have the problem of apathy in the face of all this shit.

          I just watched that video again. It makes me sick to my stomach, and sicker still to know that the majority of men will see it and say, “Tsk, tsk. Now, how ’bout them Cowboys?”

          • Mr. J

            THATS what I mean, Paul ……..THATS what I mean !!!!!

          • Izzey

            Unfortunately, I understand both views.

            What is the answer?
            The ‘gray area’ in this, just sucks.

            You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink?

          • Tom M

            You can lead a horse to wather, but you can’t lead a horses ass anwhere…

          • Tom M

            You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t lead a horses ass anwhere…

  • Mr. J

    Izzey, thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of men would do practically nothing but that crap if they had no other responsibilities at all…..thats what I observe anyway.

    • Izzey

      I see the relevance in all assessments. My angst comes from the many women that have this privilege (option…choice…luxury?) Because they do not have to break their ass providing an income.

      Men live shorter lives than women. PROVEN.
      Why do you think that is? (I actually know the answer, but had to ask anyway)

      There is a ‘flip side’ to every coin.


    • Keyster

      You mean “responsibilites” like a wife and children to protect and provide for?

      You’re missing the point of what got us to where we are now, and how it will only get worse. Society is built from the nuclear family on up. If men don’t have these responsibilities to keep them occupied, they revert to either apathy or crime. This is what the SoCon’s fear.

      If women want to take over everything and be more like men, we’d prefer to let them, rather than argue about it. That’s the state of society. Watch it crumble around us from matriarchal/grrl power rule and leadership…
      …until we’re called upon again to come back and clean it all up.

      • Mr. J

        well, no,…………….”responsibilities” like making the world a better place for everyone and everything.

        • Pankaj

          No thank you, to be a revolutionary for the sake of others. If I can live my life decently and happily, that is about all I will do.

          Screw making the world a better place, I leave that to wannabe Seros (yep.. that is Sero not a Hero, although there isn’t much of a difference anyway). For all I care it, can fall into the sun as it eventually will anyway.

  • Mr. J

    Imagine what America would be like if every man, instead of watching sports and car races, playing golf, etc. etc. spent that time engaged in ways to get rid of feminist politicians.

    • Tom M

      or better yet – spend that time to get rid of chivalrist politicians.

  • Mr. J

    …..and if every dollar spent on sports “tickets and trips” was spent on efforts to get rid of feminist politicians.

  • Mr. J

    …..And I mean ALL that time and ALL that money, not just some of it!!!

  • Apedale

    This is the problem I have with this line of thinking.

    I work for the benefit of the family. I don’t demand my wife does it. All I expect is a bit of support to enable me to get on with it. Answer the phone go to the bank keep the place tidy and whatnot, just get on with it?

    Now it could be the other way round. The missus could make the money. Yeah, I’ll answer the phone, go to the bank and keep the place tidy This wouldn’t be a “traditional”arrangement but I’d be perfectly happy with it. Ninety five percent of women are not like that and never will be though.

    Women in the workplace is mostly a piece of shit. The money they make is mostly fraud.

    • Apedale

      I have a traditional marriage in that sense. If my wife did do work earning money or whatever (and depending what money she made I’d probably not spend the time dossing round the house, I’d probably provide a bit of support). That and running on the mountains with the dog. Ha ha!

      I don’t want women doing stuff they are crap at.

      And I’d rather live with someone I could fuck than live with a man.

  • Bob O’Hara

    Behold! The traditional woman at work:

    • Bob O’Hara

      And a perfect response:

    • http://www.ironwynch.com Nicole

      No, this is a traditional woman at work

      You want to trade places? You feel she’s pampered and leading an easy life?

      How about these traditional women at work:

      • Bob O’Hara

        you actualy mean to tell me that a woman in the third world making bread or tending to farm animals is oppresed? What about the men tilling the fields and shoveling the cowshit, and building the barns? Agrarian life is hard for everyone but especialy for men for whom farmwork is dangerous.


  • UncleRay

    One thing about the “traditional” woman you mention is that like you said, she apparently feels you should work in the coal mines and whatnot in “exchange” for blowjobs. I put that in quotes because it makes it sound like it’s supposed to be a bothersome or unwanted task. Sorry but if she’s not enjoying it as well, I simply couldn’t get off. Acting like sex is supposed to be part of an exchange is a subtle implication that she finds a part of your body repulsive, which means she’s definitely not the kind of woman you want as a wife.

    • nuclearradio

      UncleRay: I think you are underestimating the degree to which western culture has trained women to be duplicitous, self-serving rationalization machines. To these people, sex is both consensual AND an exchange. Sex is “consensual” when she’s coated in sweat and having an orgasm, and an “exchange” when she needs to rationalize behaviour that places him in the role of being an obstacle to her next narcissistic conquest.

  • andybob

    “I too am sick and tired of ALL the ways of women saying “I’m not a feminist let me offer my kind of succor to you men over there fighting back”….they are either well intentioned but ignorant, or exploiting your good efforts…Its a sort of reverse white knigh phenom…in some way it buttresses their “Im an independent strong woman” bullshit anyway.” – Chris

    Chris, you really summed up my suspicions of a lot of the female claims of support creeping into the M.R.M. recently. Most come across as callow and insincere. As Chris points out, there is little genuine empathy – it all rings very hollow. They don’t seem to really grasp the hypocricy and injustice of ifeminism and its vicious and corosive impact on men and boys. There are obvious exceptions to this (Dr Helen, Crella, Izzy to name a few).

    By the way, thank you for providing such intelligent and insightful resources, Mr Elam. You have made a world of difference to men everywhere. You have been one of the most articulate critics of the so-called traditional woman and her spurious claims of support for men. Their ‘support’ springs almost entirely from self-interest. I well remember the fracas with The Thinking Housewife. She certainly had detailed honey-do lists for all of the men in her sphere. She’d play the good little Mrs providing all of the men did her bidding. Providing me were obedient, she could be sooo understanding.

    It has been my experience that two groups despise gay men more than any other group in the west. Feminists and traditional women. Feminists despise gay men as much as we despise them (except the mangina lapdog faggots who have been hoodwinked into thinking that veering to the left and behind the hairy legs of lezzieloonies is somehow in their interests). Feminists are users and takers who look down on all men as moronic beasts of burden. They use gay slurs against straight men in shabby efforts to manipulate and shame them. Tells you what they really think of gay men (and straight men too), doesn’t it?

    You once said that gay men can be seen as the ultimate MGTOW dudes. In many ways, this is true. Problem is, gay guys have to live and work in the real world too. We also have brothers, fathers, friends who have been royally screwed by feminism. I’m only MGMOW in that I am impervious to the wiles of unscrupulous entitlement princesses. I can’t be controlled sexually, so they have no use for me. Nor I for them. It’s a mutual hatefest. Neither of us have any need to make a secret of it – which is why I am often surprised that many straight men don’t know of the deep animosity between most gay men and feminists. The MSM desperately tries to portray a famfag alliance which is barely there in a deep or meaningful way. They hate us all.

    Traditional women took much longer to figure out. Thanks to you and other M.R.A. leaders, I have answers. Traditional women are the flip-side to the feminist coin. I can’t be exploited or manipulated by their “I have a vagina” entitlement mantra (thanks bizzman663, hilarious). I am not useful to them, so I am irrelevant and invisible.

    That’s good for me, but I am not prevented from seeing what they do to the straight men entangled in their skillfully spun webs of deceit. They are a menace. Just as straight men are waking up to their scams, gay (except perhaps the more dainty ones) men are realising that they have a responsibility to identify with men first. The alliance among gay and straight men that you have advocated for so long is happening fast. And traditional women will work as vehemently as feminists to derail it. Pretending to be our friends is, as Chris points out, “reverse white-knighting”. Approach with caution.

  • Mreal

    Feminism is a war against nature; the destruction of the masculinity of men and the femininity of women. Your attack on a traditional woman is quite frankly bizarre and indicates to me you know nothing about socio-biology. You have a targeting problem.

    I personally don’t believe for one moment that feminism and its almost magical acceptance and expansion is the result of any ‘grass-roots’ movement. In my opinion it is being funded to destabilize countries which may interfere with an emerging world government.

    Feminism is just a part of a larger PC movement which is slowly demanding that common people accept a make believe asexual world- no men and women but persons, no husbands and wives but partners, no boyfriends and girlfriends but significant others, no belief in heterosexuality as the human norm; in short a dumb-downed, weakened, intimidated and obedient class of people not unlike worker drones.

    • nuclearradio

      Well said. One of the few entirely rational opinions on this page. I think that “traditional” relationships can work, but only if we choose as a society to enforce the marriage contract equitably and vigorously, or abolish marriage completely as an institution of the state. Either way, society’s view of parenthood and the role of the father needs to change drastically.
      I personally in theory would love to have a “traditional” wife. A real traditional wife, that views (idealized of course) marriage as a partnership and a priviIege. I foolishly married (now divorcing) a so-called “modern” woman, much to my own chagrin. I was asleep on the train tracks when the perfect storm of “modern” feminist ideals and “traditional” hypergamous expectations rolled through going 70 mph.

  • vklaatu

    I never wanted any kind of traditional life at any time anywhere, and after military service(USAF), two shite relationships, AA, and service as an advocate for other issues, I’m pretty fed up with society at large. In fact, as of late, while I’ve been rereading Walden by H. D. Thoreau, I often wished I could just go live under a rock. But, I have projects to finish and issues, such as those we discuss here, to address.

    Thoreau looked at “tradition” then and saw the machinery for what it was, slavery. He made a case for MGTOW in the 19th century! So all you traditionalists and conservatives, men and women alike, can __ALL__ kindly go fuck yourselves, thank you very much. I don’t think I should have to regurgitate what he had to say about the machinery of materialism and tradition, and his case against them, go read it for yourselves.

    I wonder how many other ex-service members and veterans of other forms of advocacy are watching this thread as well as contributing.

  • vklaatu

    Some of what follows might seem to be at odds with my previous ranting, but I assure you, it actually isn’t.

    One item nobody has mentioned; fathers and sons. Does the traditional family environment really offer them more contact with each other? If so, then can we in good conscience discount it? If not, then how do we facilitate this absolutely essential contact?

    Women can’t show boys how to be men. Now I realize that some younger MGTOW know this instinctively, but without really understanding it, or they’ll simply want to tell me that they don’t want anything traditional at all… especially if their fathers hadd too many issues of their own. Some MGTOW seem to be in many ways trying to reinvent the wheel. I’m here to tell you that down through the ages there are plenty of examples of many individualists who benefited from contact with their fathers and other older men. This should be self evident but it’s something that we absolutely must insist on, especially when so much empirical and anecdotal evidence points toward it.

    I will posit that our only true purpose as activists is to pave the way for the the men who will stand up and show the world that men are no longer disposable. As for the guys that say we shouldn’t have leaders, you’re right. If we set examples, we won’t need them.

    Our primary message should be that men aren’t disposable. If we demonstrate this, then our opposition will do the work of discrediting themselves, the same way the right wing religious retards do already. This mission extends far beyond just debunking feminists and calling out manginas, traditionalists, and white knights on the way they enable the contemporary woman’s insanity, and that’s what it is, insanity. If you really want to discredit someone, by the way, you set them up to reveal themselves as insane fools ands tools.

    As for these women who think they’re so badass, you wouldn’t last a day among the really tough men that I’ve known, sorry, but you’re full of shit and full of yourselves. There’s a reason there are no female Navy Seals, Army Rangers, or Air Force Search and Rescue members. Ladies, just don’t go there. On a personal note, I used to be a member of the SCA, and I saw women get their asses handed to them regularly even when they wore full armor and practiced constantly, not by me personally, but often BY MEN TWICE THEIR AGE. The traditional women know the score in this regard, but they expect this skill from men for reasons that are very far from fair or honorable.

  • tyciol

    >pretty sure I read a comment from zed over at TS not too long ago that “Most MRA’s are one blowjob away from becoming a mangina.”

    On one hand, the defensive part of me wants to disprove this…

    But on the other hand, the horny side of me wants to promote this myth like crazy.

    If they don’t like us standing up for ourselves I’d much rather they attempt to change that through oral attention than through things like false rape accusation.

    Of course, there’s always the chance we’ll get charged with rape because they are consenting to give BJs on the pretense that it will change our minds, and when our minds fail to change, we are not fulfilling our end of the unspoken bargain.

  • MySatanistDadRapedMe666

    This post really speaks to me, I would like to know where the author is now and if he still thinks the same way.

    • The Mutant

      I’m not surprised that Brian Uecker of Rapid City, SD would have such an interesting opinion.

      • MySatanistDadRapedMe666

        uh, I’m Ashley Hutsell, I grew up in Signal Mountain, TN, I think you have the wrong person

      • driversuz

        So, Diana Prince, who is Brian, and what “opinion?”

        If you have something personal going on here, I suggest you take it somewhere else.

        • The Mutant

          Brian runs a racist, homophobic website called My posting career. It’s a site for people to harass, dox, and insult anyone who isn’t a white nationalist.

  • rohl

    MRA members, get together with all your male counterparts and make your own babies.
    Feminists, get together with all your female counterparts and make your own babies.

    Oh, wait, neither of you can do that! How about you both accept that with each gender comes unique problems that the other will never understand. Women will never understand what it is like to be considered dispensable by society (men going to war and in occupations where the mortality rate is high), and men will never understand what it is like to live in constant fear (fear of wearing the wrong clothes and getting raped, fear of walking alone at night and getting beaten, fear of leaving a man who beat you only to have him come kill you) and make less money because of what isn’t in your pants. There can be sympathy for the other group, but there is not empathy (no way to walk in their shoes). Both groups get shit on, but there is no way one can continue without the other.

    • driversuz

      Men are victims of violence more often than women, and there is no wage gap. There are female MRAs (“members” of the MRM) and there are male feminists.

      You’re a troll, and not a smart one. Bye.

      • rohl

        The gender gap is shrinking, not gone (where are your sources?).


        I am not a troll, I just got upset reading about an author who would not help a person in trouble because gender.
        “To this day, after 25 years of activism for men, if I saw a woman I didn’t know in some sort of trouble, I would still have to go through a conscious process to let her fend for herself.”
        I was trying to point out the stupidity that both male and female rights groups spew. My point was not well articulated, but I was trying to say we need each other for procreation (not to mention a million other things). I am not against men (if it weren’t for men’s bravery and strength, human beings would still be living in caves). I have huge issues with women who do not appreciate what men have worked hard and sacrificed for (I also have huge issues with men who do the same to women). I am against stupidity and moral corruption. Any human being who would not help another in trouble because of gender is stupid and morally corrupt.

      • rohl

        Men are the victims of violence more often than women (http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/). You see what I did there, I included a reputable source for my information. Would you mind doing the same for your “there is no wage gap.” comment, because all of the reputable sources I have found contradict you. Thank you.

    • driversuz

      Strike 1: This is a friendly warning that you may need to re-read our Comment Policy, in particular the bits about derailing and trolling. [Ref: 5157]

      Additional remarks:

      Rambling nonsense with nonsensical feminist undertones. Yawn.

      • rohl

        I do not like feminist. They are trying to make men useless, and will find that impossible (because women need men just as much as men need women!) Also, feminist and MRA who support violence toward the opposite sex are horrifying!