Man at Maldives

MGTOW and female disapproval

Yes I know: what would I, a female, know about the myriad factors that go into a male decision to Go His Own Way, or a male orientating his life to minimise or lessen, if not outright avoid, any engagement with women? It’s a fair point and the answer is: I don’t know. I can respect that decision and acknowledge that this man has the right to live his life anyway he chooses, but I really cannot get inside his head and feel what he feels or has felt.

Okay, having said that, this is not what this is about, this is about shining a bit of a spotlight on why some women, sometimes feminists, sometimes not, seem to have this visceral negative reaction to MGTOW, why some females take it upon themselves to pour scorn and vitriol on the heads of these men.

Actually the clue is in the acronym – Men Going Their Own Way. Now whether or not women will admit it, the fact is for a lot of women there is no male “way” because men only live by the grace and favour of women. Without that grace and favour men will be made feel the full force of female disapproval, which manifests itself in many ways, from the violent to the relatively benign – ever seen a women convey her disapproval of a male action by a slight pursing of her lips, a slight stiffening of her body? I am betting we have all seen this happen to a man or boy, and have noticed an immediate change in the behaviour of that man or boy.

Of course female disapproval can and does manifest itself in much more direct, abusive and violent ways, but the point is that women feel they reserve the right to arbitrate and exercise approval of male actions, male behaviour, and in fact male autonomy.

Our modern society is now exclusively orientated towards achieving, obtaining and accommodating this female approval. MGTOW comprehensively rejects and delegitimizes any necessity for female approval or sanction. MGTOW is men thumbing their noses, giving the finger to the notion that men live by the grace and favour of women. It literally pulls the rug out from under the feet of women who, whether consciously or not, have internalised the idea that men are a resource for women, that men live and die to serve women’s needs, wants and whims, that men have no other function but to be at the beck and call of women, but only if and when a woman decides she had some need that a man is obliged to answer and/or fill.

MGTOW quite clearly asserts that there is a male “way” and that the default female “My way or the highway” cultural norm is now being rejected, dismissed as basically a mirage, an illusion.

The universal pedestal that the vast majority of women believe they stand upon is crumbling beneath their feet, the illusion that they occupy some rarefied higher plane of existence in relation to men is shattered, and the self absorbed and egotistical belief that men live for and in service to women is… a joke.

MGTOW is literally a slap in the face for women. It is saying to women in clear unequivocal terms – “you are not really all that!”

Of course there is another deeper and more subtle message that MGTOW conveys that is precipitating the current spewings from female voices, feminist or otherwise: MGTOW is a manifestation of male disapproval of female behaviour, actions, etc. It is saying, “we’ve seen what you have to offer, we’ve watched the way you present your ‘goods’ and… nope, not buying!”

Oh dear Lord, men rejecting females, men giving women the once-over and not snapping up one of these delightful creatures! Heaven forfend! All this female spluttering in rage, hurling of epitaphs, heaping of scorn, is the female equivalent of a spoilt obnoxious brat throwing the mother of all tantrums at not being picked to play the princess in the school play, because… well because I am a princess!

The notion that men choose to reject women – it is simply not to be borne!

There is yet another underlying subtle message that women who have an issue with the whole MGTOW phenomenon tend to raise – men left to their own devices will turn into, if they haven’t already, uncouth violent barbarians without the “civilising” influence and monitoring of women. Wonder how that stacks up in the face of numerous YouTube videos of females (usually drunk) causing mayhem in city centres on weekends. Here in Ireland, in Dublin, we get a lot of “hen parties” around the Temple Bar area, and the behaviour of these females is jaw-droppingly loud, violent, abusive and not to put too fine a point on it, disgusting – urinating and vomiting in the street being a big problem. Hmmm, I simply cannot fathom why men would be “turned off” by that!

Really! Boys, lads – what ails ye at all? Don’t ye know that there are wimmin out there ready and willing to rip your heart out, itching to use, abuse and reject you? Literally foaming at the mouth to squeeze every last penny out of you, give birth to your children then taunt you for 18 years by holding those children hostage, to ransom?

Lads, MGTOW is just mean, it’s not playing the game – sorry – what did you say? The game is rigged? Nooooooooooooo! Really? Ah, well then, off ya go, have fun, and for goodness sakes lads – mind yerselves – them wimmin are very very sneaky.

Note: this article is also available in Spanish.

About Anja Eriud

Until about five years Anja was quite happy to ignore feminism and feminists, She went back to college to study law and there it was, everywhere, toxic and corrupting. She was aware that women were becoming obnoxious and men were getting shafted, especially in Family Courts, but until I confronted in real life she didn't know how bd it was. Now she is one pissed off Irish chick. "FTSU is the plan right? Sign me up!"

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  • AdVader

    There is more, mgtow is radical and neglects good women, thereby female ‘approval’ serves to undermine fatherhood.

    • aewehr

      That’s actually the point.

      Common Human Decency is not enough motivation for “good women” to organize against the radical feminists poisoning everything they cast eyes upon, so hopefully a lack of men seeking marriage will motivate them.

      • Laddition

        “hopefully a lack of men seeking marriage will motivate them.”

        sometimes I care about that… other times?

        Hop on in to reality you fabulous single ladies in their late thirties, forties and fifties, hope you meant what you said about fish & bicycles because it’s truth and consequences time, baby – and you thoroughly earned this. Here, have a complimentary cat.

        • Laddition

          ‘complimentary’ cat

          before y’all start trying to correct my spelling, it’s a free cat that says nice things at dinner time. So, technically it’s a complementary, complimentary cat. (or vice versa, I’ve lost track).

          • http://mensrightsarehumanrights.wordpress.com/ Anja Eriud

            This made me literally laugh out loud. :)

            Poor cats – harangued by irascible wimmin to “say something nice about my hair” or no bloody whiskas for you!

          • Laddition

            @Anja

            LOLing is fair, I liked your article too – cheers. I appreciate the feedback. Somebody thought they had me over an apparent spelling faux pas, how little they know me ;)

            If we ever meet the 568ml pints are on me for the honey badger set, you ‘guys’ do great work.

        • Snarge22

          I just love seeing 35 – 40+ year old women with out wedding rings. Most aren’t working great jobs, have loaded up credit cards, and are quickly loosing their beauty and gaining weight. I wonder how their retirement savings is doing? I just love it.

          • John Narayan

            Yes I don’t think they get it, the fact is many will not have children, the rationalisation hamster that runs these women, well most women I suspect, has us much power as the engines of the QEII, and the denial is as deep as QEII hull.

            Another thing is the offshoring of many of the jobs women do. Welcome to our world ladies you have not seen a thing yet.

            All I can say is cry me a river.

      • feeriker

        …so hopefully a lack of men seeking marriage will motivate them.

        Maybe, maybe not (I’d recommend betting on “not”). I don’t recall ever seeing anyone ask this publicly, but how many “good women” (maybe we should define this term first?) hold marriage as any kind of real priority?

        Just askin’.

    • http://kalishivarising.blogspot.com/ Vivica Liqueur

      The beauty of MGTOW is that it is radical. Radical is necessary. They do not ‘neglect good women’ they just don’t buy the b.s. that women are benevolent beings and are aware that the reality is quite the opposite. The reality is that the vast majority of women do believe in supremacy, this is the very reason feminism exists.

      Enjoyed this article. MGTOW do not need women to come tell them ‘Not all women are like that’ aka NAWLT as that is just another way of telling them how they feel is invalid because a woman said so, society does this daily and men already live that. MGTOW is a way of saying ‘Enough’.

      This does not undermine fatherhood at all, it shows men that they have a choice to not live that life, they do not need to be fathers if they don’t wish it. We tell women they don’t have to be mothers, that doesn’t undermine motherhood, for some reason it’s unacceptable when a man starts to embrace this very idea? I don’t buy it.

      • MGTOW-man

        Neither do I buy it. Men can do whatever they want, or not…well mostly (draft/war, taxes, etc).

        It is all is linked to how men view themselves as “real” men, based on the conventional manhood myth that continues to plague them today, that they cling to with stubborn yet an erroneous, misunderstanding of veracity.

        We do need more examples of MGTOW and Zeta males. As role models in motion, a compounding effect, hopefully exponential eventually, will result. I believe this will be the most helpful component of our movement. When we change men, we change the world.

        I have been living MGTOW for going on 3 decades now, and do not regret it. Alternative? SURE! But there is great happiness and power that comes with this freedom and it is not a true statement that all men will be lonely and unhappy unless…(they cave in)…. Just like with most other things: Being lonely (or not) is what you make of it.

        Shatter old myths that tether men to this stagnant role that is self-defeatist and we change the world.

      • http://kalishivarising.blogspot.com/ Vivica Liqueur

        I was using AdVatar’s words and turning them into a positive.

        Yes, living authentically is the basis.

        In our society MGTOW are indeed seen as radical. Men standing up and telling society that they don’t own them because they happened to be born male is a radical concept to many people in our society.

        What’s radical about being an individual? Not a damn thing, except when living in a society where mindless action and pushing of tradition to measure worth has become the norm. And yup, we happen to be there right now.

        I hear what you are saying and get it. However, I see MGTOW as more than just an acronym it’s a movement that brings a powerful and important message of individuality as well as support for other men who are moving away from social ‘norms’.

  • James Williams

    Does anyone have any stats that show the growth of MGTOWs as a phenomenon?

    • Frimmel

      There probably aren’t any starts charting it directly. But any drops in marriage rates or co-habitating rates would probably support an argument for growth of MGTOW. I don’t know how you’d separate men not dating from men who can’t get dates. I suppose the rise of the pump and dump culture might be useful but it takes two to tango.

      I’d think also that any thing you could use to support some sort of “failure to launch” trend would be useful. Some sort of information indicating a trend in under-employment for men not directly influenced by the economy. But I think both of those would be very bound up with the economy/employment.

      And I just realized why sociologist is an actual job.

      • alek

        And I just realized why sociologist is an actual job.

        I happen to be one :D at least in terms of formal training. Overall however I’d say its a profession of mental masturbation where people just make educated guesses.

        • Laddition

          That goes with the territory when the feminists take over; dogma over insight every single time. A potentially interesting field reduced to bad-joke status. Psychology too.

          I appreciate the candour about the sad state of much of the profession (didn’t say ‘all’).

      • Mr. Sungame

        “I don’t know how you’d separate men not dating from men who can’t get dates.”
        I think that there might be a nice venn diagram overlap there :P
        I know that I am considering MGTOW partly because I struggle with getting dates. I find the whole dating scene to be to much about catering to woman, and to change who I am to be “desirable”. And even when you do date or find someone it’s my job to be the right for her, not the other way around. I even had a girl tell me “You know, you are a great guy, but I just can’t date another nerd”. Well I am, not going to change any time soon; So I am more or less not playing the game. :P

        • feeriker

          I find the whole dating scene to be to much about catering to woman, and to change who I am to be “desirable”. And even when you do date or find someone it’s my job to be the right for her, not the other way around.

          Yep. This also serves as a nice piece of anecdotal evidence that fuels JtO’s piece from last week: http://www.avoiceformen.com/gynocentrism/also-not-interested-in-the-carrot/.

          I even had a girl tell me “You know, you are a great guy, but I just can’t date another nerd.”

          To which your response should have been “Sure – until you’re past thirty, washed up, having been bucked off the cock carousel, and desperate for any man with a wallet to give you the time of day. That won’t be me then, either. Good luck to you.”

        • Sam

          Don’t forget to add to the diagram the men that can get dates but have no intention of raising some other guys kids, or worse, get trapped into 18 years of child support payments for kids that may or may not be his.
          Most of the men I know that refuse to settle down, or even date at all, do so because they want a woman that they can respect. The problem is that there are so few out there.
          The feminist movement has done more harm to the idea of the family than any other single cause. Not because women should or should not have equal rights but because men do not have the rights women do. Once, long ago, feminist may have wanted equal rights but they didn’t realize (then) that would mean the rights that were once exclusively female would have to be shared with men. Feminists have no intention of sharing those rights.
          Now that men are starting to decide not to play the dating game, women are starting to see what feminists have caused.

          • MGTOW-man

            “Now that men are starting to decide not to play the dating game, women are starting to see what feminists have caused.”
            —Exactly, I have always said this. Nothing will help us more than if MGTOW, leaving women alone and hating feminism for its destructive one-sided “help”.

    • Laddition

      This might supply the data about marriage rates, which kinda-sorta give some insight into the MGTOW issue. As the wise Frimmel says; direct data is tricky.

      http://www.justfourguys.com/marriage-rates-plummet-projection-of-never-married-rates-to-2017/

      This one speculates about a couple of factors leading to the marriage rates declining

      http://www.justfourguys.com/women-start-marriage-strike-men-complete-it/

      It’s a relatively new blog along similar lines to Dalrock’s, but without the religious overtones. I visit both blogs regularly. I love the manosphere.

    • Happy Bachelor

      This might be a little enlightening… over at mgtowforums they say they’ve gone from about 1000 unique visitors per day with an average of about 30 users online to 7000 uniques and 350-400 online in less than 3 years.

      If you look hard I think you can see a MGTOW tidal wave on the horizon :)

      • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

        Yep. I think all the websites along that theme have increased traffic significantly. Based on their Alexa, I don’t think MGTOW Forums is getting that many uniques a day. In fact I am sure of it, but they are probably not too far off from that and will likely get there.

        There is a men’s tidal wave in the making. I don’t think it is just MGTOW, but a much more encompassing spectrum of men of varying mindsets, most of them having in common that they don’t want to be guided by feminism or traditionalism.

        Works for me.

  • KylaGeorge

    Lol. Women are princesses, and if you treat them right your status as head of the family will be fixed. But some self centered males who think its all about them botch families, run away and leave the woman in a mess that she takes care of on her own. So uh, ya woman have proven throughout time (because ran away fathets are timeless) that woman are pretty freakin strong and awesome. Oh ya and pay your child support. Bam! thats whats up ;)

    • http://www.youtube.com/user/MrShadowfax42 MrShadowfax42

      Not interested in “princesses”… aka entitled toddlers.
      Not interested in being “head of the family”.
      Not interested in your “pretty freakin strong and awesome” women.
      Not interested in, and will never, EVER pay child support.
      Bam! Now what the fuck were you dribbling about again? ;)

    • http://gloriusbastard.com/ JJ

      Another “timeless” thing is paternity fraudsters father shopping for the deepest wallet….BAM!

      False Accusers, a la Crystal Gale Magnum….BAM!

      Or gold diggers like Cleopatra, Herodias, Marie Antoinette, Liz Taylor, and Marylin Monroe…BAM!

      Single mothers are pretty timeless too, especially the statistically proven fact that they are head and shoulders above even their second place live in boy friends who pick up the slack in killing their kids, if the champion single mom fails to do so. So don’t kill your kids lady…neglect them,….abuse them…..or use them…..BAM, BAM, BAM!

      Now that’s whats up. Go pick up your EBT card welfare professional.

    • Zarathos022

    • Zarathos022

      Oh yeah and learn to spell too. BAM!

      Moron.

    • nick

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

    • David Palmer

      You know-you might check some facts.

      For instance, the most recent information I’ve seen indicates that in the USA, mothers who owe child support are less likely than fathers to pay. I believe the statistics indicate 85 percent of fathers who owe child support pay-while only 65 percent of mothers who owe child support pay.

      And the vast majority of divorces are also initiated by….wimmin. Hard to see how that constitutes “father’s running away” and leaving the “wimmin” to clean up.

      Research, facts, logic. Amazing things. Pity you never encountered them.

      • MGTOW-man

        “Research, facts, logic. Amazing things. Pity you never encountered them.”

        —Shame on you, David, They have a replacement for the above? Don’t you know? It is called feelings.

        • Laddition

          close, it’s ‘feewings’, it’s worth going the extra mile to FTSU more thoroughly.

    • Brobdingnag

      Lol. Women are princesses

      Yes indeed they are. They are living in a fantasyland.

      • John A

        They’re living in Disneyland.

        • http://gloriusbastard.com/ JJ

          Off the child support of their kid’s fathers, and gone with the boyfriend, left the kids at home.

        • feeriker

          Paid for by men.

    • http://mensrightsarehumanrights.wordpress.com/ Anja Eriud

      Well now, aren’t you just the absolute perfect example to prove my point!

      Tell me something petal, did you hit that “post comment” button with one french-manicured nail with a flourish and a……there! that’ll teach you! Then stick your tongue out at the screen?

      Did you and all your besties huddle around the computer high-fiving one another at your cleverness and grrrrlll power?

      What was it that got under your skin? The idea that men might look at you and see a fraud, a snivelling, whining avaricious little toad. Perhaps your ire was raised at the *gasp” notion that not only are you NOT a princess, but that you’re ordinary, mediocre, banal, shallow and so NOT worth it?

      Had you raised any points worth addressing I might have considered giving you a serious answer – but trotting out tired unsubstantiated myths about “ran away fathers are timeless” really?

      You are neither “pretty freakin strong” nor awesome, you are a caricature, a buffoon, you and your “sistas” are a freakshow and a embarrassment.

      Had you taken the time to read the comments of the male posters properly you would’ve gotten the message – YOUR approval is not required, you have nothing to offer that any intelligent free-thinking man either wants or needs – darling you are surplus to requirements.

      Have a fabulous awesome life now. :)

    • Theseus

      “…pretty freakin strong and awesome”.

      Yeah. you’re so freakin strong and awesome that you have to totally rely on men for building roads, construction, cars, sanitation, power, pulling yer asses out of burning buildings, rescue you if you need help, and growing your fuckin’ food so you can pork yer fat ass, Not to mention a mountain of other dirty, dangerous jobs that are essential to making the world go ’round.

      Why doesn’t THIS simple equation ever register in your tiny little fembot minds?

      Disclaimer: Obviously this is not directed to all the REAL strong and awesome women out there (like the women on this site).

    • Stu

      When a woman can’t financially support her children, the state gives her a cheap house, and then gives her the money to pay the rent on that cheap house. Then it give her the money to pay for everything else to support her children. When a man can’t financially support his children, it throws him in jail.

      There is 100 times more dead beat mothers then fathers. Women just have have the money given to them to cover that up.

      • http://www.ecalevolada.info/ tsubasalovelace

        This. A million times this.

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

      I smell fear, and I see it expressed as vitriol and scorn.

      Either you’re a troll trying to provoke an emotional response, or you’re a mindless bimbo who thinks that a string of random slogans and twitter-esque catch phrases is a viable substitute for a coherent sentence.

      Regardless, you are irrelevant.

      • MGTOW-man

        “Either you’re a troll trying to provoke an emotional response, or you’re a mindless bimbo who thinks that a string of random slogans and twitter-esque catch phrases is a viable substitute for a coherent sentence. ”
        —Well said, Suz. But since you used logic, I do not think they will get it.

      • feeriker

        …or you’re a mindless bimbo who thinks that a string of random slogans and twitter-esque catch phrases is a viable substitute for a coherent sentence.

        But Suzanne, “twitter-esque slogans” ARE “coherent sentences” for this bunch. The fact that she was able to put together even a couple of sentences that bore a passing resemblance to the Standard English used in adult communication must have been a brain stem-busting exercise for wittle pwincess.

    • onca747

      Wow, 39 downvotes.. that’s impressive (even for a troll).

    • Laddition

      “woman are pretty freakin strong and awesome.”

      bwahahahahahaha

      You’re so cute and funny, stick around chickee

      (p.s. the doc called, time for your meds sweetie)

    • nick

      Looks like your husband left the kitchen door unlocked again.

    • aewehr

      I don’t think “pretty freaking strong and awesome” means the same thing to you as it does to me.

      My great aunt was actually strong. She was a certifiable genius, talented painter, and I used to engage her in debate on any topic which we both enjoyed and did not take personally.

      She did not play a victim, she was not a feminist, she was not a ‘princess’, she embraced the meritocratic ideals of defending your points rather than pulling gender.

      Any woman for whom a man would be told to “just apologize, even if you don’t think you’re wrong” deserves a big, red [Rejected] stamp.

      I expect women to engage intellectually. Your body is ephemeral, and while I want a few of your better years if you’re a woman, I want to have a relationship that actually involves your HEAD.

    • Bewildered

  • Bewildered

    Here in Ireland, in Dublin, we get a lot of “hen parties” around the Temple Bar area, and the behaviour of these females is jaw-droppingly loud, violent, abusive and not to put too fine a point on it, disgusting – urinating and vomiting in the street being a big problem. Hmmm, I simply cannot fathom why men would be “turned off” by that!

    You must be/are lying ! Didn’t you know women/girls are ALL sugar n spice and all things nice ?
    Why do you hate your gender so much ? You are a big misogynist and a victim of the patriarchy……………………..

    • http://mensrightsarehumanrights.wordpress.com/ Anja Eriud

      I have a small confession to make.

      I like to eavesdrop on women’s conversations; the main topic of these conversations is invariably…….men.

      How to get one, how to keep one, how to “train” one – all usually accompanied by wails of despair at how men just will not “commit” hmmmm.

      The most entertaining part of these conversations is how women bolster one another’s egos (over-inflated) by reassuring each other of how “fabulous” they are, and what bastards men are.

      Sometimes my inner bitch gets the better of me – it happens – sigh. :)

      The look of outright confusion, followed by anger, then by spite and vitriol when one points out this simple little fact.

      “you’re friends are lying to you, you are not fabulous, you are in fact a brainless, selfish, nasty little trollop with all the charisma and charm of the stuff I have growing on my shower curtain”

      PS – have been called worse things than “gender-traitor” by the “fairer” sex

      • Aimee McGee

        Anja, a ladies that lunch club for honeybadgers sounds like we could have fun as long as we plan exit strategies

        • http://mensrightsarehumanrights.wordpress.com/ Anja Eriud

          @ Aimee

          Lol – you bring the pepper spray and I’ll bring……………………………a net!

          :)

          • http://kalishivarising.blogspot.com/ Vivica Liqueur

            LMFAO!! Count me in!! I shall bring my spanking hand. I think these entitled princesses need to learn what is acceptable behavior in human society. Just so happens I have the experience to train them ;)

    • feeriker

      Hmmmm, that little excerpt coaxes an idea out of my diseased mind: how about holding an International Drunken Bitch-Slut Competition, in which groups of grrrrlllls from various nations of the world (or at least the western world) are gathered up and deposited in some neutral location for an evening of drunken, no-holds-barred “hen party” [beautiful, Anja!] debauchery? You could make this either a single night out, or, as in baseball, make it a “best evening of three/five/seven/however many,” with judges (a la the Olympics) deciding at the end of the event which national group of grrrrllls is most deserving of the “Girls Behaving Most Badly” title. If nothing else, it would paint a reasonably accurate picture for the men of the world’s various (developed) nations of how god-awful the women in their countries behave relative to those of other countries (e.g., “yeah, the women here in Canada are awful, but thank God I don’t live in Scotland!”). You could even make it a quadrennial (or decennial, or however frequent) event just to make sure that the data remain consistent or that demographic behavioral trends are registered.

      I’m betting that a fundraising effort to pull such an event off would succeed beyond anyone’s wildest imagination.

  • Robert St. Estephe

    Drapetomania

    [Drapetomania is a term that derived in the slave days and was used to describe the “disease” in which the symptoms were “a slave that was addicted to attempting escape or escaping slavery…” (The Urban Dictionary)]

  • Mark Trueblood

    Most women, and many men, seem to have some kind of gyroscope oriented towards everything a man does has to serve “society” – meaning women and to a lesser extent children. Even people who are fully aware of gender hypocrisy, and give lip service to human rights, still seem to think they have business in asserting who men should be serving.

    Burn the Ender (a perceptive MGTOW on YouTube) made a video pointing out that some people are angrier at MGTOWs than they are at players and thugs. It’s like they give the thugs and manipulative players credit for at least giving women something they want, for a time. Which reveals some really ugly truths, when you think about it.

    • Kimski

      I think MGTOW’s might actually be the most equality minded people of all.

      If women want something, why don’t they go for it themselves, instead of relying on the state or a husband to do it for them?
      I’ll tell you why, while trying to stay in the lingo of that moronic idiot KylaGeorge above:

      >>Because women have proven throughout time, (because women depending on men are timeless), that women are nowhere near being equal to men. But as a MGHOW, I’d actually prefer to see them prove otherwise, instead of them expecting the state or men to take care of them.<<

      But, personally, if I’m viewed as nothing but a means to an end, they can respectfully go fuck themselves.
      -In the name of equality, of course…

      • Laddition

        “I think MGTOW’s might actually be the most equality minded people of all.”

        I agree, I often call myself (in dead earnest) ‘a feminist’. I’m pretty sure that ‘real feminists’ won’t like my definition of the ‘movement'; you want it? you earn it yourself baby.

        “But, personally, if I’m viewed as nothing but a means to an end, they can respectfully go fuck themselves.”

        you’re more polite than me then… ;)

        • Kimski

          Not really.
          I have a tendency to leave out the ‘respectfully’. ;)

    • Paul Johnson

      There is a lot of “dating advice” for women, by women on the internet, which refers to the game. There’s a game, and women and men are gaming in it.

      I think women who play the game are just, by-and-large, better at it than the men. They act hurt when they break up with their suitor, but knew it was coming all along.

      But the idea that men REALLY don’t want to play any games… Well they don’t have a handle by which they can be controlled.

      • Mr. Sungame

        As a person who love games (as in video and board, not dating), I have to say the reason woman are “better” at “the game” than men, is simple: They wrote the rules, and the rules are not exactly fair, rather they are written for woman.

        MGTOW i view as men deciding to write their own rules, where the playing field is more in tune with the olympics; Men and woman competing in different categories :P

        • MGTOW-man

          “Men and woman competing in different categories”
          —The two aren’t meant to be identical. Evolution or by divinity, the result is the same. That is why the truth unfolded. The truth is nature; nature is the truth—at least the only truly objective possibility of it.

  • Bolo

    The only thing I could really find was taken from MGTOW.com

    Not sure what this means but its a place to start.

    http://www.mgtow.com/files/mgtow.png

    • Fredrik

      What does freehostia.com have to do with this?

      • strix (David King)

        Nothing. Evidently mgtow.com is hosted there, and their servers are configured to divert hotlinked (ie, where the referrer is not another local page) content to advertising.

        Nothing you can do about it except link the page that hosts that image, rather than the image itself.

    • FreeThinker

      Your link is not working.
      Here is link to this chart.

      http://www.mgtow.com/four-levels-of-mgtow.php#stats

      • Laddition

        Great link, thanks (scroll to the top of the page, it’s all good)

  • Marcus

    I live in Dublin as well; are there any active groups there?

    • http://mensrightsarehumanrights.wordpress.com/ Anja Eriud

      Hi Marcus,

      PM me on site – lets talk.

      My user name is Eriu :)

  • OldGeezer

    “… men left to their own devices will turn into, if they haven’t already, uncouth violent barbarians without the “civilising” influence and monitoring of women.”

    A very common perception, especially amongst the social hierarchy of both sexes, AFTER those “barbaric” men have served their initial purposes in dealing with the uncivilised realities of new frontiers to be conquered on land, on the sea, in the skies, and beyond.

    Time then to bring the women and other exploiters into the newly tamed parts of the universe at their own convenience, and for all those rough males to be redeployed to the next tough jobs on the agenda, emasculated by females and other “civilising” influences, or disposed of entirely as no longer useful to their superiors. Needless to say, all gathering places and “risky” pleasures attractive to males must disappear completely from the environment at that point. But most important of all, of course, is to eliminate all such rough male influence over the education and development of boys unless and until needed for similar ad hoc purposes in the future.

    Men going their own way, or just the inevitable result of societal “progress as usual”? You decide.

    • Mark Trueblood

      The “barbaric” men will often have a far easier time finding women attracted to them then the “civilized” ones.

      • Kimski

        Yes, there seems to be a female preference to breed with these kinds of men, but they will marry the man they can walk all over, and often leave him again to go back to the ‘savage’.

        There’s probably a lesson to be learned there, but…
        *Ho-humm*

      • OldGeezer

        More attracted to males whose manner and behavior reflect natural inclinations, of course. But the financial and other “security” advantages of a contract with the more “civilised” male will almost always prevail over that initial female tendency … although by no means exclusively even during the life of the contract.

        Depends on how much she can get away with, and these days that’s quite a lot. Of course, there’s always the rape accusation weapon to fall back on if her preliminary instincts become a little awkward for her later on.

      • patriarchal landmine

        dalrock had a perfect article about this exact situation.

        “overcivilized men, uncivilized women”

        • http://www.ecalevolada.info/ tsubasalovelace

          Shoot. I should have read this comment before opening my mouth! Interesting read!

    • Frimmel

      I’ve often thought that an actual new frontier is sorely needed. Not sure you’d be able to rest a place in it from the fat cat corporations though.

      • harleypig

        As soon as space is commercialized we will have a century or so of new frontier. I’m really curious as to how that will play out. I don’t think it will come in time for me to take part in it, except maybe as exploiter … err I mean saloon keeper.

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

      It is no small irony that much of men’s violence is a result of men either competing for women’s approval or protecting women.

      ‘”‘…civilising” influence and monitoring of women,” indeed. Without women around, men tend to civilize and monitor themselves fairly well.

      • Fed Up

        Some male violence fits that category and some women seek a ‘protective’ male accordingly; See the chapter ‘Her Man’ in ‘Irvine Welsh’s book ‘Trainspotting’. However maybe you are not familiar with the exclusively male tribal world of football ‘casuals’, or ‘hooligans’ if you prefer that word. Read any of Welsh’s novels and you’ll come to understand it.

    • http://www.ecalevolada.info/ tsubasalovelace

      What’s interesting is the opposite seems to be true in reality. Men realize that men are not angels and that they cannot be governed by angels (apologies to Publius), so men tend to form governments and create civilizations that can function over wide geographic areas. Sure, sometimes it goes all pear shaped and you wind up with oppressive regimes, but c’est la vie. Men create infrastructure, commerce, law, and order.

      Let me be absolutely clear about my terminology here since I’m forever cursed to be confusing every time I use terms like “men” and “women.” The trans woman is a new beastie as is the open and monogamous homosexual man. If we’re going to take a historical perspective, then the term “men” must needs encompass both of those things even though we have more precise terminology available to use these days.

      Now, where this idea came from that womyn-born-womyn are a civilizing influence is utterly beyond me. All I can figure is that since the animal function of her body is necessary for reproduction, then perhaps that’s what was meant. Looking at it in that context might make some sense out of the so-called oppression of womyn-born-womyn. Merely by virtue of having her animal functions, keeping womyn-born-womyn around is necessary, at least until they invent the artificial womb.

      Perhaps womyn-born-womyn were grudingly compelled to contribute something else between pregnancies, so chores such as cooking and cleaning became their purview while men were out building civilization. What else could they be expected to do? Asking two womyn-born-womyn (or worse, more) to work on a cooperative project in the way men can is a recipe for disaster.

      However, the question becomes one of what, exactly, do womyn-born-womyn contribute to infrastructure, commerce, and perhaps law and order? Where are the womyn-born-womyn construction workers, builders, telecom engineers, computer programmers, plumbers, civil engineers, research scientists, etc? Well, there are a few, and I must be careful not to engage in bashing an entire gender myself lest I become no better than the feminists I seek to criticize. The trouble is that there aren’t a whole lot.

      One thing that becomes apparent when looking at typical womyn-born-womyn objectively is that for most individuals who find themselves womyn-born-womyn, it’s more important to tear down a rival womyn-born-womyn and make her look bad and oneself look better, and every other womyn-born-womyn is a rival to this kind of person, even the rare womyn-born-womyn who wants no part of it and would rather build things and make stuff. (I’m sure there are a few around somewhere even if I haven’t personally met any.)

      I have never once observed this kumbayah-type, civilizing thing about womyn-born-womyn. They tend to start quarrels day in and day out with others over just the most petty crap.

      We got this client at work that even made me realize the most flabbergasting thing about when male privilege is extended to me. This client, a womyn-born-womyn, has no end of vitriol to spew on our staff (which is mostly womyn-born-womyn). However, when she’s talking to a man, suddenly she becomes the most docile, professional thing you can imagine. Since I’m required to work as a man because of all our hysteria about trans folks, I get the most peculiar impression. It seems that I’m being extended male privilege by a womyn-born-womyn, and the form that male privilege takes is that I have the privilege of not being dragged into these hissy cat fights.

      Although some individuals are different, it seems on the whole womyn-born-womyn tend to erode order, at least in my experience. They are constantly picking fights with each other and blaming each other for things that many times don’t even make sense. If a problem happens, the womyn-born-womyn’s first instinct is to blame somebody. Somebody must be blamed and shamed! It doesn’t matter if there’s a better way or if nobody’s really at fault. It doesn’t matter if there’s a way to learn from the problem and avoid it in the future.

      Womyn-born-womyn seem to be an utterly uncivilizing influence.

      • John Narayan

        We do create commerce, maybe the MHRA could create their own non-currency currency, NO TAX, we can call it PGTOWcoin. No debt or credit allowed. You want to destroy feminism a worldwide non state that is everywhere all the time but nowhere could be the trick. It’s time for the PGTOW (people going their own way) revolution.

        • strix (David King)

          Separatism never solved anything.

          We have all the economy we need, but it is corrupted (largely by men!) by corporate greed. If you don’t fix that in the wider economy, what hope have you for a new one?

          • John Narayan

            So we ALL have a corrupt economy we NEED? Who is this we you speak of.

            How do you propose we fix this corrupt economy we need, that keeps many in servile manginahood?

      • strix (David King)

        As women have characteristic faults, so do men. Excessive legalism, competitiveness/disinclination towards coöperation (look to the history of the M(H)RM to see what I mean) and poor communication to name but a few.

        Mercy, tenderness, compassion and tolerance are characteristics at which women tend to better men, and those have value, too.

        Men and women have complementary traits — balance is key — and we ignore either at our collective peril.

        • AlexB

          No offense, but I think that’s more of your gender bias than some inherent characteristics of men and women.Reality doesn’t back up those claims.

          Excessive legalism?Not sure what you mean by that and how it’s connected to men.

          Competitiveness/disinclination towards cooperation?Some are, some aren’t, either way I think this is more in terms of nurture than nature.Besides in my experience it’s a friendly level of competitiveness, not really harmful.

          Poor communication?Again, I don’t see how this is specifically male.

          Mercy?I find men to be more forgiving than women, and the ones who don’t, usually happen to be men with gynocentric attitudes.

          Tenderness?Okay, this one generally speaking is true, but there are exceptions if you care to look around.

          Compassion?I’ve always found men to be more compassionate than women, women’s compassion, in general, tend to be limited to words, whereas men tend to show it through actions.And another thing about this is that most people don’t see the things men do out of compassion as compassion, it just seems to fall into some other category.

          Tolerance?Seriously?Can you honestly take a look around, observe how men and women act and tell someone that women are more tolerant than men?In my experience men have a higher level of tolerance than women, by a large margin.

        • D.D.Harper

          I think you misfire here..it seems women are more inclined to promote legalism and men are more inclined to not. Compassion is not something in a bubble, sometimes it is not letting everyone get what they want, that term is thrown around to loosely frankly and men are equally as capable of compassion as a woman, they are more judicious in looking at the reality IMO.

        • Fredrik

          I’m sorry, but you’re full of isht. Setting aside blood relatives, the last person that I would go to for sympathy in a time of trial would be a woman. Are you effing kidding me? They hate male weakness. They pounce on it and pound it into the ground. It’s such a deeply-ingrained genetic instinct that I don’t even fault them for it. They can’t help it, because the ones whose great-great-whatever-great-grandmothers tolerated male weakness didn’t survive to pass down their genes. It is what it is.

        • J Galt

          I’ll take peril for 10 points David and pass the mushrooms!!!

        • http://kalishivarising.blogspot.com/ Vivica Liqueur

          “As women have characteristic faults, so do men. Excessive legalism, competitiveness/disinclination towards coöperation (look to the history of the M(H)RM to see what I mean) and poor communication to name but a few.”

          Actually you are describing women here and ‘excessive legalism’ is evident in our politics right now. Example, VAWA.

          As far as competitiveness/disinclination towards cooperation and poor communication, you pretty much defined feminism and again, women. The strong grip women keep on supremacy screams their lack of cooperation nor want of it. Women are notorious for being poor communicators instead of being clear with what is present they storm off and assume you should be a mind reader. If a man were to act this way he would quickly be labeled crazy, but for women, crazy has become norm, acceptable and supported by feminism.

          “Mercy, tenderness, compassion and tolerance are characteristics at which women tend to better men, and those have value, too.”

          Bahahaha! Sorry, I have NEVER found this to be true. Women are vicious and calculating and I’ve dealt with so much bullshit from my ‘tender’ counterparts that it took me awhile to believe I could have healthy relationships with women. I do now, but even that is on the rocks as I’m calling them out on their shit now. Women do not like to be called out on their shit, they only want to be told they are right. I find no ‘mercy’ in women that stand against men having human rights nor the women who circumcise their infant sons, there is no ‘tenderness’ in the women who support false rape allegations, where is the ‘compassion’ from women who would rather bash men then be present to appreciation and acknowledgement for all men have done and continue to do in our society? There is absolutely no ‘tolerance’ from women with anything that isn’t exactly what they say it should be. None at all.

          “Men and women have complementary traits — balance is key — and we ignore either at our collective peril.”

          Sure we do, but if you’re going by what you expressed above, I believe your perception of ‘balance’ is skewed.

          • MGTOW-man

            Thanks for your integrity. You are a much better person for it. It isn’t pretty but someone has to do it. I think you and I could agree that the truth is not hatred, but ooooh how the truth is hated.

          • http://kalishivarising.blogspot.com/ Vivica Liqueur

            It is hated indeed! Very true.

  • Graceful Swallow

    “Now whether or not women will admit it, the fact is for a lot of women there is no male “way” because men only live by the grace and favour of women. Without that grace and favour men will be made feel the full force of female disapproval, which manifests itself in many ways, from the violent to the relatively benign – ever seen a women convey her disapproval of a male action by a slight pursing of her lips, a slight stiffening of her body? I am betting we have all seen this happen to a man or boy, and have noticed an immediate change in the behaviour of that man or boy.”

    Well said and very interesting connection. What causes so many boys and men to respond in such a compromising and debilitating manner?

    • J Galt

      my suspicion is that men and boys fear isolation and respond accordingly. isolation can manifest physically, psychologically and emotionally. the most effective violence that women can apply to a male is social isolation that contributes to loneliness. the two most effective forms is shame and rejection.

      • Fredrik

        I respectfully disagree, because I think that men and boys are often happiest alone — or at least in an all-male group — so the loss of a woman’s company isn’t much of a threat. I don’t think that female disapproval needs any other threat to back it up anyway, because it seems to me that female approval is how a lot of guys measure their self-worth.

        • Frimmel

          Female approval is required if you want to reproduce. It is whether or not you measure your self-worth by it. If you want children, you’re going to need it and might find yourself willing to settle for even the twisted and screwed up kind.

          So when women shame or isolate or disapprove of men particularly young men who have not established themselves in other ways it is a very real and cogent threat to a primary biological impetus.

        • Graceful Swallow

          I agree that men need time alone. Yet, I also agree that women (i.e., mothers, caregivers) can violently hurt men and boys by intentionally or unintentionally isolating them. In this case, the woman’s behavior stems from her own fear and insecurities, and hence a need to control.

          What of the idea that being alone is different than being isolated? Men have been shamed by our culture which interprets men’s need to be alone as running away, avoiding, or hiding when in fact we need time to reflect (solitude?) or get out of a volatile situation and cool down.

          • John A

            What they do is they give a man something and then take it away.

          • J Galt

            “What of the idea that being alone is different than being isolated?”

            I suspect the difference is your ability to access what I would call the social collective. The “social collective” being employment, social programs and common spaces in society.

            Isolation occurs when you create registries, or police men from sitting on park benches near playgrounds, or apply policy to prevent a man from sitting beside a child on a plane. That’s isolation that is wholly different from being alone, or implement affirmative action programs, or provide ladies night at the local bar, or, or ,or ………….

            “men’s need to be alone as running away, avoiding, or hiding when in fact we need time to reflect (solitude?) or get out of a volatile situation and cool down.”

            As a “science experiment” pick any random woman in your life and attempt to discuss with her any emotional issue you deem to be significant. Place your character as the active victim and see how far the discussion goes.

            I will submit that men “run away, avoid and hide” from placing themselves in the role of being a victim in their emotional narrative.
            That takes time and solitude. Just sayin

        • WontStepUp

          Many men and women tend to see the other gender more as a group than as individuals. When a woman disapproves of a man, he unconsciously worries that his potential mates would feel the same way.

          I used to be that guy, but have weeded that out of myself. It’s always interesting to see women’s “he isn’t a resource” look when their disapproval is blown off as irrelevant.

        • J Galt

          By extension both female shaming and rejection can and do impact relationships between men. It is not the relationship with women that I’m referring to but the stigmatization placed on men by women. Female approval is the gateway that men must go through to access the impersonal social collective. I’m not suggesting that men require approval from women personally or directly neither am I saying men require female anything other than social approval that men do not provide to each other. Thank you for disagreeing it contributed to a wider dialogue.

          • Fredrik

            Yes, now I understand what you mean, and I agree. That’s basically why I don’t use my real name here.

          • J Galt

            You just nailed it harder than I could. I think the original difference in perception is how we view or understand the meaning of isolation and being alone. I’ve spent huge amounts of time alone and been quite happy in the knowledge that alternatives were available to me.

            When the alternatives aren’t available or are removed that’s isolation.

    • DragonFire

      Because, by and large, they are raised by their mothers.
      So, when growing up, their search for approval is largely approval from women.

      And that sets the reward cycle…please mum, and get positive attention, displease mum and get negative attention.

    • D.D.Harper

      The illusion that if they appease women, mothers etc. that they will be accepted and loved for who and what they are. This is changing though.

  • patriarchal landmine

    women, most of all, are terrified of MGTOW. without men enriching the system, it will all come crumbling down. without civilization, women have no power.

    they have no one to blame for this but themselves. feminists have been promoted from petit tyrants.

    • http://mensrightsarehumanrights.wordpress.com/ Anja Eriud

      “women, most of all, are terrified of MGTOW. without men enriching the system, it will all come crumbling down. without civilization, women have no power.
      they have no one to blame for this but themselves. feminists have been promoted from petit tyrants.”

      I believe that you have hit on a very salient point, as have other posters.

      Our society and culture has been engineered by feminism to put approval/disapproval power almost exclusively in the hands of women.

      From mate selection (ridiculous dating rituals and tests – I believe that these are called “shit-tests) to child-raising “mother knows best” to education – boys need to sit down, shut up and be quiet – like girls! (ignoring the fact that girls are the queens of sneaky, insidious bullying). To relationship conduct – she says jump, you say how high! Right into the corridors of power and policy making.

      All this depends on MALE acquiescence, on giving credence to the necessity that in order to “be” female approval is required.

      Women have been smugly depending on, and led to believe that they are the last word on…………..everything. Tyranny indeed.

      The fact is, that when men stop “playing this game” the illusion is shattered – women are revealed to be, to a large extent, useless, powerless, without MEN co-operating in this bizarre toxic unequal dichotomy. Women have rested this illusion of superiority on the biological fact of them simply being female. Of magnifying their importance and value to society out of all proportion.

      MGTOW is saying, in my opinion – that is not enough, that is not good enough – your female power is shallow, it is a mirage, it is a delusion, simply existing is NOT enough. As a man, I am reclaiming my right to be whatever I choose to be, to set the terms for how I live my life.

      The hysteria that men “going their own way” causes is because it threatens the very foundations, very shaky foundations that modern society has been placed on. If men do not and will not acquiesce in maintaining, servicing and contributing to this dysfunctional society it will do two things.

      Expose the weaknesses inherent in running a society that exists to pander to the irrational demands of a gyocentric culture, and inevitably cause the systems created within that culture to collapse.

      The speeding up of inserting anti-male legislation into legal systems, and in Europe, anti-feminism laws is an attempt to shore up and solidify the hold of gynocentrism. The growing intensity of feminist hate-mongering is, in my opinion a reaction to a growing anti-feminism, a growing counter cultural movement that says – feminism is poison, feminism is destructive, feminism is corrosive. Perhaps, in the not too distant future – feminism will lose you votes!

      Healthy functioning societies NEED men, NEED fathers to maintain it, to voluntarily contribute to it, to participate – for over 50 years now feminism has insisted on shitting all over, ignoring and or demonising the essential contribution and participation of men in our culture – has used and exploited the resources that men have provided, and belittled the blood sweat and tears that went into creating this culture – well now ladies – your chickens are coming home to roost.

      Whether cultures rise or fall, live or die, fail or succeed depends on MEN.

      That might sound a bit odd coming from a woman, but I am under no illusions that females are by and large incapable of taking the leaps in innovation and creativity that advances in any meaningful way cultural progress, inventing more and more useless decorative crap to adorn yourselves with is not very “life-enhancing” or beneficial to anyone but vain egotistical empty headed women.

      • Fredrik

        Anja Eriud: “MGTOW is saying, in my opinion – that is not enough, that is not good enough – your female power is shallow, it is a mirage, it is a delusion, simply existing is NOT enough. As a man, I am reclaiming my right to be whatever I choose to be, to set the terms for how I live my life.”

        For one thing, like many an ethos, it might not be so explicit for an older man; it could be more of an ingrained habit. For another, I think you’re also a bit off for the younger men, since you seem to actually be articulating what the assertion looks like from a woman’s point of view.

        15-20 years ago, I would say things like, “I reject your attempts to define me. That is my right and not your prerogative. I get to say who I am, and who I want to be; and every time you try to control me and say who I ‘should’ be — as if you had a red phone to the mind of the universe — I hate your disrespect of my personal autonomy.”

        These days, I find it rather amusing, ridiculous, and charming that I would actually feel such intellectual sincerity as to waste my time breathing those words to people with closed minds. Was it not cute? I think it was cute, but not respectable. Now I just go about my life without a word of explanation, except to my supportive sister.

        I hope that you see the differences and similarities — how your description could be my attitude, from an opposing perspective — but I don’t really care, for obvious reasons. ;)

    • endthefed76

      MGTOW represents a worker’s strike. More like a slave escape.

  • John Narayan

    My body my choice

    • John A

      My sanity, my choice too.

    • AdVader

      ‘choice’? your body is not your body, your childrenare not your children, your life is not your life..

  • J Galt

    As far as I’m concerned the principles of the MGTOW social contract should be taught to children before the age of five. It’s a mental health issue!!!!!!

    • http://Bluedogtalking.com Bluedog

      JG, no real desire to get off topic, but you realize there’s more than a small dollop of irony in words coming from someone using the moniker “J Galt” that approvingly embrace the “social contract”? You’ve actually read much Rand or was it just a synopsis of Atlas Shrugged?

      • J Galt

        Well if your referring to what I called the “MGTOW social contract” then it’s hard for me to see the irony as opposed to what you refer to plainly as the “social contract” then the irony is almost as good as mushrooms. (no need to thank me for the humorous buzz)

        If your suggesting I subscribe to a “social contract” that empowers parasitic relationships ……I don’t. But I do believe that MGTOW as much as the Grass Eaters have established a new “social contract” to which I subscribe and believe should be disseminated widely including to children.

        As far as Rand goes, she penned some compelling social warnings. She’s an intelligent deep person that I respect.

  • Fredrik

    Anja Eriud: “All this female spluttering in rage, hurling of epitaphs, heaping of scorn, is the female equivalent of a spoilt obnoxious brat throwing the mother of all tantrums at not being picked to play the princess in the school play…”

    I chuckled at the substitution of “epitaphs” for the “epithets” that are normally hurled, because it’s so fitting. One of the anti-MGTOW shaming tactics is to portray a life of independence as empty — as if we’ll all die sad and lonely, with “He was really good at videogames” on our gravestones. It’s b.s., of course.

    • David Palmer

      Wait…Frederick-what are you saying? That a man without a woman isn’t going to die alone and miserable? Shocking….

    • WontStepUp

      The version I’ve heard threatens a man with his final years being in a nursing home. As if fear of nursing homes is a good reason to marry, and as if married people don’t go into nursing homes.

      • Fredrik

        Many different epitaphs are hurled our way. What will be on your tombstone?

        “He died in a nursing home, and no one remembers him before that.”
        “At last, he has finally moved out of his mom’s basement.”
        “Just because he deserved to live, doesn’t mean that he had a life.”

        And so on. I find it all rather amusing; but then again, I’ve managed to remain pseudonymous, so I don’t have to deal with real-life mockery.

        • Bewildered

          ” After fighting, a FUTILE,valiant battle to get IT up he has now gone DOWN to rest in peace ! “

          • Fredrik

            Sadly, if only your fictional character would have taken the time to find out what turned her lover on, then maybe she wouldn’t have had to put him down for being such a useless appliance.

      • Aimee McGee

        My feeling is we all need to look at how we address old age, whether it will be through assisted suicide or whether we form multiple adult households to care for each other

    • Efreet

      i think i’d kind of like that on my tombstone.

  • jaytheman

    What MGTOW means to me is a man finding meaning in his life without the need of a girlfriend or wife. Men of the past (sorry older gents 24 year old talking lol) were told by society that you couldn’t be a complete human being without a female spouse. I swallowed this garbage as well when I grew up and I felt like I was a incomplete human being without it. Now I’m learning that I can have a fulfilling life with just friends and family and gasp without a female spouse. That is what makes them mad and even feminist will suggest your gay or a recluse when ironically they champion gay people and independent women (when it suits them obviously). Feminists love the independent women mantra, but when a man says it they lose their shit lol.

    • AdVader

      ‘being’ gay doesn’t exists as we are all hetero (xx/xy), never accept-tolerate pseudological LIES which femini$$m-samesexuality ARE.

      • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

        Excuse me, and I understand that a big fat face palm is in my future for asking, but how does having xx or xy make you heterosexual?

        • AdVader

          it doesn’t, we just are, despite abnormal disgusting sexual behaviors

          • Anarchy Jack

            … and Face Palm.

          • xtrnl

            If you’re looking to bash gays, you came to the wrong place. Kindly exit through the door over there, bigot. And please don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

          • J Galt

            I’m betting your a feminist posing as a troll……… your logic base is about as deep as your navel and that’s what gives you away.

          • Goodguy

            as others have said, your comments are not acceptable here. leave.

          • http://gescheidenvaders.multiply.com/ AdVader

            now what about freedom of speech, truth is a menace for demoRats, ‘goodguy’ if you don’t like truth leave, btw a male is no man without a woman.

          • Goodguy

            fair call. i retract my instruction to leave. however i accept all humans, gay, straight, bi etc as long as they don’t purposely hurt others. live and let live. peace

          • http://gescheidenvaders.multiply.com/ AdVader

            i value all humans the same, but, i don’t accept/tolerate liars&cheaters, and sexual misconducts have nothing to do with being human, as we are all hetero, whatever twisted ‘feelings&thoughts’, postmodernism destroys normal families, mainly children&fathers, pseudological postmodernism lies destroy society, destroy the world. no truth no freedom no justice no peace, twisted ‘love’..

      • strix (David King)

        Sigh. Did you choose to be straight? No? What makes you think that gays choose to be gay, or that they could choose to be straight any more than you could choose to be gay?

        Quick biology lesson is in order, should you be inclined to actually learn anything.

        All embryos start out as female. You, like all men (and it seems pretty likely that you are male), already do have mammary glands that are, given the right stimulation, capable of lactation, and do have the remnants of an undeveloped vagina behind your perineum.

        The proto-female embryo is virilised by the influence of androgens early in gestation. Incomplete virilisation leads to gender ambiguity (overlarge clitoris or underdeveloped penis with gross hypospadias, unfused scrotum or unsuppressed Müllerian ducts).

        In extreme cases, Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome results in an XY karyotype individual who, despite being genetically male, is fully and completely female (breasts, vagina, uterus, “ovaries”, albeit nonfunctional). In fact, C-AIS women tend to look especially feminine, though AIS is a spectrum disorder, and so you get a wide range of physical manifestations. By the way, there are allosome combinations other than XX and XY: there are XXY, XXXY and others. So much for your attachment to XX and XY.

        The brain is virilised too — there are structural differences between male and female brains — but not, however, at the same time as the body, which means one can get virilised and the other not. Virilisation of the body and incomplete virilisation of the brain results in male genetalia and sexual preference for men.

        This, at least, is one entirely likely hypothesis for homosexuality, even if there are other causes.

        I have no idea what it is like to be gay, so instead I listen to the accounts of gay people. You might try that for a change, instead of pontificating from your pedestal of ignorance.

        • externalangst

          Is the idea that a man with an unmasculinized brain but a partly masculinzed body results in homosexuality?

          Some decades ago, researchers looked at the idea that masculinized brains resulted in homosexuality but concluded it did not. There are gay men with some serious mathematical abilities eg Alan Turing (inventor/discoverer of the fundamental binary computer algorithm and major breaker the enigma code during WWII).

          So gay men can have the masculinized brain but part masculinized body. Interesting theory. Now all I have to find is a woman with a masculinized brain but not a masculinized body. Image it – someone who looks like a heterosexual woman but thinks like a man. Hello ladies. Great article Anja.

        • http://gescheidenvaders.multiply.com/ AdVader

          you may pseudologically twist&twist&twist what you want to talk right whats wrong, we still all are hetero, thats not a ‘choice’, your biological lesson has nothing to do with genes, your extreme deviant pseudologics are only meant to deny reality and make an insane one.

      • maddick

        No one chooses their sexual orientation. When in your life did you sit down and consider having sex with men versus women? If that were the case I doubt any gay men or lesbian women would have chosen to be gay or lesbian as it would make little sense for them to do so. But sexuality is not rational thought; it is irrationally driven by chemical and hormonal responses to stimuli around you.

        I would ask you to at least reconsider your thoughts on the subject at least from the regard of when it was you “decided” what sexual orientation you were going to be as I suspect it was a process that took shape and not a decision.

        Social pressure and conditioning also fails to explain this development. For those of us who have seen the such conditioning applied to people we care about (like a Jesus camp for example) know all too well that it simply doesn’t work through conditioning. It is simply a function of brain development.

      • endthefed76

        Pseudological LIES= Identity Politics. There’s big money in them there Identity Politics!

        • http://gescheidenvaders.multiply.com/ AdVader

          yep, and sexualization (dehumanization)

    • D.D.Harper

      Jaytheman

      As an old guy I realized long ago that no matter what I do, “someone” will not approve. The day I grew up was the day I shed any notion that I’m not going to do this alone. The incredible thing is while pursuing my journey many others joined me along the way.

      For some this is new ground, for others it is a life well lived.

      Grumpy Old Man

      • AdVader

        all youngsters claiming mgtow have to be questioned, as they don’t know anything, are indoctrinated surviving in lies and their brain hasn’t matured yet, though of course we understand their problems because of restricted identity-politics’, based on pseudo/egologics/nomics by ‘choice’..

        • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

          I won’t even ask how broadly you define “youngsters.”

          How about you just give us a list of which groups of people you consider to be beneath you. Arrogant bigot.

        • MGTOW-man

          Don’t give this ignorance-laced fool any more of our time. Poor thing doesn’t know enough to be attempting this conversation that resides on a higher tier than what he is capable of comprehending.

    • MGTOW-man

      Feminist lose their digested groceries because with independent men, those women somehow know they are going to get less; They lapse into feelings hyper-drive. And of course, everything is HIS fault.

  • droobles

    I admire the MGTOW, but without having children we lose on the biological imperative, our genes will be lost forever. How does the MGTOW face this issue?

    • WontStepUp

      Not everybody is concerned about their genes being carried on, especially if they believe their children would be born into a rotten society.

    • John A

      How did they face it at Gettysburg, the western front, the beaches of Normandy or Okinawa?

      It’s a tough call. I’ve got a son and he is really important for me. Life is full of tough choices and every one has to make their own. What make life hard now is we have the choices that previous generations did not.

    • maddick

      MGTOW, in my mind, doesn’t require you to forego having children entirely. It does, however, require that you ensure that your own needs be met. No one is created to have their needs met for them with the only exception being children and that is for a limited time only. And no one is created to meet your needs except parents and that is, again, for a limited time only. It is up to you to draw the boundaries and limitations in your own life and if you don’t, someone else is going to come along and do it for you and you just might not agree with their sense of balance. If your boundaries expand to include children, then that is a personal choice, not a social obligation, for you to make. No one can make that choice for you. It is important to consider the legal ramifications of such a thing long before you do it however. But again, in doing so, you are ensure your needs be met first.

    • Fredrik

      Bottom line: Biological reproduction isn’t even the be-all and end-all of our reproductive drive, let alone of a human life.

      You could just donate to a sperm bank, but where would be the satisfaction be in that? Do you really want just anyone to be able to raise a bio kid of yours, without even getting to vet them? That would not satisfy my reproductive urge at all; it would actually make me unhappy from worry, since any offspring of mine would likely be very clever, and could cause a great deal of harm if not raised properly.

      I think it’s sad sometimes, when I see great guys without bio kids. A former co-worker of mine who was strong, smart, and industrious has been married several times and raised several kids over the decades, but never one of his one. A long line was going to end with him, and he was resigned to it. Wil Wheaton — one of my heroes — adopted his wife’s kids, but AFAIK he has never reproduced, and at this point it’s unlikely that he ever will.

      The fact is, misandrist propaganda aside, we are not dogs. There’s more to us than just a desire for genetic proliferation — and realistically, there’s enough diversity now in our species that the loss of one person’s uniqueness is no big deal. A few years back, one of the best men that I ever knew passed, leaving behind a widow and some cats. It was sad that he had no progeny, because he was brilliant and charming, sensitive and successful; on the other hand, he also drank himself to death, so maybe it was for the best. (He was probably not so sensitive and charming at home at night, in a drunken stupor.)

      That’s a messy answer to a simple question, but I hope you got the gist of it.

      • AdVader

        whatever child abusive sic&selfish stupid&infantile useful idiots make of it, children belong to grow up at home with their father and mother, their human right on normal familylife.

        • Fredrik

          I find your anti-gay prejudice repulsive. Also, you’re wrong about where children belong. IIRC, advice columnist Dan Savage and his husband adopted a baby from the kind of girl who wakes up in an alley in (pre-Katrina) New Orleans to find her boyfriend next to her dead of alcohol poisoning. (It was an open adoption, they kept in touch, and that happened to her later.) I believe that kids deserve stable, nurturing homes, regardless of the sexual orientation of the parents, or even whether they’re biologically related.

          • xtrnl

            @AdVader: I just want to say congratulations. Feminists love you. The reason being that you are the very stereotype that the MHRM tries to overcome. That is, you are the reason why the MHRM is always being smeared. You give us a bad name. Let it be known that we wash our hands of your hateful ways. By the way, please learn how to properly form sentences and use punctuation..

    • scatmaster

      Surrogate

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com August Løvenskiolds

      I was lucky – a buddy of mine linked me up to a donation program 30 years ago. It was a poor substitute for raising one’s own kids in a loving family but a rare chance for a man to fulfill biological imperatives apart from the slavery demanded of men by gynocentrists.

    • FreeThinker

      Did you care about having children before you were born?

      When someone’s time is up, he will care about children just as much as he did before he was born.

      • MGTOW-man

        Exactly! You win the conciseness award!

    • Mr. Sungame

      “How does the MGTOW face this issue?”
      Well that’s the whole point of MGTOW; Rather not play by a corrupt set of rules, so we put our own lineage in danger by saying “Enough”

      It’s not the MGTOWs job to consider that issue, it’s the rest of the world, if they want to get the MGTOWs back in the reproductive pool.

      • Laddition

        I doubt they care. But I agree with you otherwise. The deal is crap, walked away, will not be subsidising a woman (or society more that I can legally avoid).

        Society does not care about men, the most men can do is not care right back and get ‘revenge’ by enjoying life. It’s not revenge in the short term, but maybe in the mid and longer term the consequences are going to bite on society (reduced working hours => reduced taxes to subsiduse women’s shitty decisions). At which point they can bite me, for all I care.

        Men make rational choices all the time including those where no option is attractive, it’s women that feel entitled to someone come along and fix things for them (well…not me baby, so long).

    • MGTOW-man

      To not leave children behind in a world gone mad and misandric is a good thing—an honest act of love, even if we did not have “children to love”.

      The planet benefits, definitely.

      Plus, the fact that we do not help create more feminists (in all probability) is another great thing. What good would it do for an anti-feminist truth-crusader such as myself, to undo my work, my example, my teaching, if I were to leave behind another feminist?

      This is the tip of the iceberg? Iced tea anyone? Cookies?

      • nick

        My goal 100 % with me too. My boy will not be a mangina or an enabler white knight.

    • feeriker

      The short answer: who cares? Why should any society that fosters misandry as one of its pillars be considered worthy of posterity?

  • maddick

    It’s been my experience that increasing amounts of women have internalized the message that they are so indestructibly awesome that they don’t need to prove themselves to anyone as well as believing that men will just do great and wonderful things for them because vagina. When they are confronted with counter-culture that disrupts this mentality they psychologically crumble and in defense of their own ego resort to shaming tactics and insults. Some even become violent. They are faced with the reality that they may and will be honestly appraised for what they do and how they conduct themselves forcing them to take responsibility they were once free of having.

  • TigerMan

    Personal integrity and\or holding to ones center I think is the key issue here – some men are finding that they have come to value that more than playing “the game” and find it easier to be with themselves, not pulled apart by not getting involved in a relationship. The solution to unhappiness is not a relationship or marriage if it was couples would never break up and divorce would not exist.

    • xtrnl

      Toucher. I was never free of anxiety regarding relationships until I realized how crappy they were, and that they weren’t worth the effort. So, I stopped trying. It’s strange, because once you stop caring, it’s amazing how much more women want you. It’s almost like one last attempt to stop you from escaping servitude. In the end I did end up dating again, and am currently engaged. But that’s only because I told myself that if I was going to be with somebody, she better be okay with the MHRM and understand me completely. My fiance meets the criteria I had and then some. If it wasn’t for her, I would have been a MGHOW for sure.

    • Laddition

      “Personal integrity and\or holding to ones center”

      That’s great, but I think that you may need to explain those concepts to feminists, best start with baby steps, these are wholly new concepts to the professional-victimoids.

  • AdVader

    not men have to change, not chivalry nor marriage are the problems, the sickening&maddening pseudological lies femini$$m-samesexuality are.

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

      Gofuckyour$$elf.

  • Jay

    Thanks for the article. I don’t think the sex of the observer precludes that person from understanding a phenomenon.

    • Fredrik

      Yes and no. There’s a difference between comprehending someone else’s explanation of their perspective, and trying to articulate it yourself. I appreciate that she limited her purview to addressing the reaction of women to MGTOW, and I hope that she will continue in that vein.

  • Mika

    Pretty good summary from Jaytheman above. But I am not so sure (my perception only) that society’s norms have moved very far – just marginally. We still seem to live in a society where just so much is structured for male/female “couples”. Even in man’s domain – his business life – you still cannot get completely away from this culture.

    We live in a society in western countries where guys who do not have a wife or regular girlfriend are considered as some kind of oddity and perhaps also as some kind of social failure. They are sometimes the subject of jokes and even comedy writers frequently love to demean them in the knowledge that the vast majority of people will find this hugely funny – which they do of course.

    Women (and it is definitely not just feminists) of course have their formulas for criticising independent men some of which Anja has pointed to in her article. The most amusing of all of these is – “YOU ARE SELFISH”.

    This is the criticism that I find the most hilarious. You probably do not want to work your guts out your whole life providing for a wife (who will in any event probably spend some of her time constantly telling you what to do and how to spend your money) and children. In fact you probably did not particularly want to have children and all that goes with it but you can bet your life that 85 percent of the time she does and what she wants should be the go. So if you do not want to live in this encumbered environment being some kind of a slave to others you are somehow “selfish”. As I said – hilarious – but it is all part of the attempted shaming tactics used so frequently on men.

    The other really funny shaming tactic of course is the “he is afraid of commitment”. Women just love to trot out this little trashy line.

    Yeah right. He is so smart he is not going to enter into a relationship where the likely end result is that he will be financially and emotionally screwed. Oh and I wonder when it became mandatory for one person to commit to another person they are completely unrelated to. I am committed to my parents and the rest of my family but I am sure as hell under no obligation to commit to anyone else.

    Financially guys are going to be better off happily single. Very frequently not so in the short term but very much so in the longer term. . This is especially the case for nearly all those guys who unfortunately find themselves getting divorced because he or she decided to terminate the marriage contract. I have yet to find a guy who was financially better off after a divorce. Maybe one or 2 people here can.

    Men going there own way and doing their own thing is not rejection of women per se although for some it obviously can be. It is a rejection of any legal contractual obligation in a relationship with women. This is where it can become particulary sinister. There are many, many guys who will/would happily live with a women provided there is no marriage contract – and many do. However in many jurisdictions now laws exist that treat unmarried couples that break up exactly the same as those that have a marriage contract. Having no marriage contract is no escape from the opportunists, looters and plunderers. Allow that women to live in your property (that only you paid for) in a defacto set up for, say, seven years and when she walks out, or you want her out, she can go to court and take half your stuff because as far as the law is concerned your actions are the same as having a marriage contract. Yeah that really is a great deal for men.

    So is it any wonder they are saying in increasing numbers – “stuff this….. I will do my own thing. ”

    Good article Anja. It is always very interesting to get a lady’s perspective on these subjects.

    As for women who may disapprove of all these independent guys that will not be tied down? Ladies we do not freaking care what you think and, by the way, there is not a freaking thing you can do about it.

    • AdVader

      how interesting it all may seem, mra/mgtow/frm are as good as a dead end as the pseudological LIES femini$$m-samesexuality-atheism are , though we recognize the frustrations and trying to change to counter the insanities, it won’t work, on the contrary.

      • OldGeezer

        Having provided such a sweeping enumeration of what you regard as dead-end lies, perhaps you would care to enlighten the poor deprived atheist sinners and other misguided fools among us with your own version of the truth. If nothing else, it should be an interesting revelation to say the least.

        • AdVader

          plz, with or without religions, i’m no teacher nor a preacher, just saying it as it is, take your own responsibilty okay? btw there are no versions regarding truth, despite neo-social/liberal postmodern insane realities.

          • AdVader

            think about it, e.g. scientists claiming atheism aren’t worth the title..

          • AdVader

            hypocryt bigots, ludicrous useful idiots!

          • AdVader

            betraying true love, femini$$m is fascism-sexism worse than racism, femini$$m-samesexuality are hate crimes against humanity, children and their future as well as mankind are in the greatest danger ever!

          • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

            Hi troll. Bye troll.

          • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

            Thank you, Paul.

          • Efreet

            oh no, you’re definitely preaching. the excessive labeling is a dead give away.

      • rayc2

        @AdVader:
        “how interesting it all may seem, mra/mgtow/frm are as good as a dead end as the….”

        It’s not a dead end for humanity, only for the societies that have spawned the cultures and legal systems that have made mgtow rational. You aren’t helping. The sooner you get out of the way, the sooner it will all be over.

      • Efreet

        i think part of MGTOW is being comfortable or in the very least accepting of that. going one’s own way is sort of a dead end in a social primate society. besides, it’s not like the world is going to miss us, or run out of babies for that matter.
        btw, atheists laugh at people who try to claim that atheism is “dead”.

    • Fredrik

      Family court is such a big, profitable business now, I can’t imagine it giving up without a fight. The more men withhold consent to marriage and don’t say “I do,” the more draconian the laws regarding non-contractual marriages will become.

      It’s already silly enough in some places that I can only wonder what it will take for the average joe to stand up for himself and march in protest. I actually wrote down my over/under, and then I erased it before posting, because it’s so cynical.

      • rayc2

        “The more men withhold consent to marriage and don’t say “I do,” the more draconian the laws regarding non-contractual marriages will become.”

        I agree.

        Clearly a written constitution, bill of rights, and democracy are inadequate protections when men’s servitude is considered to be a ‘legitimate interest’ of the state.

        At some point a new currency and economy outside of any government control may be necessary imo.

        • endthefed76

          Hoarding your savings in hard assets outside of the banking industry is already a must. They’re supporting all the Feminazi’s, and their brainwashed minions, on tax dollars and inflation.

    • endthefed76

      18 years ago, my sis’s husband starting inferring I was gay because I hadn’t gotten married by then(27). I told him it was better to be called gay or a loser than broke and homeless. Then, 6 years later, sis left him! Haha!

  • D.D.Harper

    I think we have a troll on the comments section: AdVader

    • AdVader

      me a troll? because you don’t like it? obvious you’re a troll D.D.Harper..

      • D.D.Harper

        OK! but I am trying to decipher your posts and fail to see a cogent argument. You responded to me at one point with something that very well may have gone above my head. So I ask the question, “What are you about and what message are you trying to get across, because I fail to see it. As far as not liking what you are saying, not the case I only need more context. I’m the recipient of your message and am telling you I don’t get it, so in this communication process I’ve done my part to understand and let you know you are not communicating in a manner where I can receive it. Maybe my lack of intelligence I admit, so please talk to me like I’m a first grader and explain where you are coming from.

        • Fredrik

          By itself, one of AdVader’s comments is a cypher; but if you read all of its comments together, the bigger picture is pro-biological nuclear family to the point of not only being anti-gay and anti-abortion, but even anti-adoption. That’s why I came down so hard with the downvotes, and counter-trolled with a Dan Savage reference to bring out its true colors.

          • D.D.Harper

            Well, I think I see that too. My issue is if you are going to take a position declare that position and stop being so nebulous/airy in your responses. It comes across as more honest and I don’t think even those who would disagree would call him a troll..

          • Fredrik

            @D.D.Harper: And now I sound silly, because the reply is gone. What I was referring to with the Dan Savage reference was that I had elicited a pretty over-the-top response from AdVader — including the claim that adoption is theft — and now it’s gone. And I didn’t think to take a screenshot of it. Oh well.

  • numbCruncher

    MGTOW will not be a problem for the world’s population.

    China and India – whose populations are booming – will become the dominant powers within the next 20 years. It can be no coincidence that on measures such as educational involvement, relative suicide rates and infant mortality, these countries show much better gender equality than North America or Western Europe.

    The devaluation of men will be a principal factor in the decline of western hegemony. MGTOW will not be a cause in itself – it is merely a symptom of a society that devalues its most productive members.

    MGTOW is a rational response to an irrational hatred.

    • http://blog.StudioBrule.com Steve Brulé

      India is already creating laws that disadvantage men in marriage and divorce. Probably due to international pressure.

      • numbCruncher

        Yep. I hope they achieve greater global strength before the feminists swamp them.

    • MGTOW-man

      “MGTOW is a rational response to an irrational hatred.”

      —Very well said! Thank you.

    • Laddition

      I’m reserving judgement on the glorious future of those two immense countries. It’s early days yet and China at least has a huge demographic problem coming via 1 child per couple. India looks like it’s chugging down the feminist poison like there’s no tomorrow – and maybe they’re right about that.

      I take no joy in that position, I’m just saying that I doubt we can see the whole truth in one country and the other’s truth could lead to well earned ructions.

      • numbCruncher

        Agreed. It won’t be simple and we will affect China and India to a high degree too.

        I see it as a race between western feminists trying to gain a proper hold over Chinese / Indian legislature before those countries’ cultures become more dominant than ours.

    • endthefed76

      ‘Devaluing’ is more like enslavement.

  • JCTFolsom

    Just… just one little thing. Great piece, but, could we all stop using the word “literally” to mean “a big”? “Literally” is a valuable word without an exact synonym to replace it.

  • Gitane

    Agreed. One shouldn’t use “literally” when in fact they mean “figuratively.”

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      I find that more often they’re not trying to say “figuratively,” they’re trying to say “virtually” or “in effect.” As in, “my head virtually exploded.”

      • J Galt

        in effect a virtual transfiguration. I feel you bwahahahahah

  • John Narayan

    Sometimes people equate MGTOW with a bunch of guys living in a repurposed missile silo with 5000 cans of baked beans, – Aussies think the film bad boy bubby – avoiding women at all cost, I still have a girlfriend – French – she understands what I do and who I am. All MGTOW is to me is learning to day the magic word – NO – and following through with it. It’s all about informed CHOICE.

    • Laddition

      ‘No’ is a very powerful word that most men seem to have forgotten. I like it, people get shocked when their passive agressive demand that I comply just gets a ‘no’ and a smile. It works VERY well because I don’t care about those that get offended.

      • John Narayan

        Forgotten generations ago, thus it’s not taught.

      • feeriker

        ‘No’ is a very powerful word that most men seem to have forgotten.

        It’s also a word that has the same effect on women that salt has on snails and that sunlight has on vampires.. As more than one manospherian has written, if you want to see a woman’s true character, see how she reacts to being told “NO!” by a man.

        • John Narayan

          Very true!

  • comslave

    Whether MGTOW are a bunch of losers who can’t get a date or men who’ve basically said “fuck this shit”, the effect is the same. A dramatic increase in the number of men living alone. This has not be tried before to this extent.

    I’m interested in seeing what the effect will be. I suspect it will be a greater participation of the state in the lives of women, and a decreased public participation of men. Men will withdraw into fields where they can be left the hell alone.

    We’re about to see what a nation of loners looks like.

    • OldGeezer

      They’ve made it virtually impossible for men to be “left the hell alone” too, except in fields of dirtywork where the gravest dangers lurk and where they are happy to leave the disposable class over-represented. Eliminating all areas of formerly pleasurable refuge for males was one of their earliest missions.

      If you’re really lucky, you might find a men’s locker room that they haven’t invaded yet for a quiet shower and a piss. Or maybe a naval submarine if you’re not claustophobic. Other than that, it’s deep mining or trash collection, and you’ll find them in most of the comfortable management positions there too.

      • Fredrik

        Seems to me that STEM is the thorn in their sides. They can neither make it undesirable (since it’s too useful), nor make women want to join up (because they perceive a competitive advantage in lucrative social fields like sales). If you want to make money with mostly male co-workers, Science, Technology, Engineering and Math are the way to go.

        • OldGeezer

          That is until they promote the one clueless female they’ve managed to recruit in the entire division to be your boss. Try getting “left the hell alone” after that. You’ll be lucky if you aren’t made responsible for her on-the-job training. And you’d damned well better not complain about it.

          Oh, and no technology jokes about “dongles” either!

          • Fredrik

            Heh. If you haven’t seen it yet, you need to watch The IT Crowd. Hopefully you have Netflix instant watch or something like that.

        • externalangst

          I’m in STEM (physical chem) and am still harassed by a few of the few females there. They seem not to be able to function without relationship aggression. By the way, most have been post grads from China but I don’t think that matters. It’s just that most female post grads where I am are from China rather than homegrown.

          • Efreet

            “They seem not to be able to function without relationship aggression…”

    • John Narayan

      Or the Pub or the Gym, sport, hobbies, being an MGTOW is fun. Just don’t let women know we are having fun that is not sanctioned by them, the nanny state and corporate culture.

      Shhhhhhhh! :)

  • Robert St. Estephe

    The principle of, and reasons for, of MGTOW has been found, stated explicitly in terms that sound as if written today, as early as 1919. Here’s a sample from that year:

    The Tribune hit the nail squarely on the head in the masterly editorial “Killing Husbands.” Let us hope that the good work may continue until this mighty evil, sex discrimination in the courts, is abated or eliminated.
    The court has never measured up to its responsibility in the matter of domestic relations. For centuries mothers were robbed of their children with as little compunction as when the mother cat is deprived of its kittens [This is inaccurate. Divorces were very rare “for centuries” until the mid 1800s].

    Then came a revulsion of feeling and the courts swung around to other extreme and singled the father out as the goat. The man who remains single until he is thirty seldom marries, because by that time he has ceased to be foolhardy and knows from his daily observations that the man who marries and undertakes to maintain a home and rear a family frequently has insurmountable obstacles to overcome.
    The hostile attitude of the courts, the busy divorce lawyer, and the meddlesome mother-in-law loom upon the horizon of the man of thirty when he for a moment contemplates matrimony, and he regards approvingly the motto on the wall of the den, “SAFETY FIRST.” — (end of quote)

    From AVfM article: “Men Going Their Own Way in 1919”

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/series/unknown-history-of-misandry/men-going-their-own-way-in-1919/

    Also on AVfM: “MGTOW in 1929”
    http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/mgtow-in-1929/

    Perfect reading for those ladies who “just don’t get it” yet.

    • http://mensrightsarehumanrights.wordpress.com/ Anja Eriud

      Thank you Robert, for once again supplying a historical context to what appears superficially to be a modern phenomenon.

      My own thinking is that feminism circa 1976 – present harnessed the power of gynocentrism and refined it, institutionalised it, politicised and legalised it.

      Took oft repeated myths and “old wives tales” about how hard done by women were and created an ideology, a platform upon which to launch an assault on male autonomy. Like all totalitarian systems, feminism propagandised the message to great effect that men were hostile to women, violent, aggressive and dominant, further, that women had been the historical “victims” of this male “oppression”.

      What is making this present day phenomenon of MGTOW cause such outrage is I believe based on two things.

      First, gynocentrism and male-hate has become so embedded in our culture, has become so prevalent that the notion of males rejecting their assigned roles (assigned by women and promulgated by institutional feminism) is shocking, it is the equivalent of, as Robert previously stated, “drapetomania” the slaves are revolting. The difference this time is that the ”slaves” are organising.

      Secondly, the very foundation upon which institutional feminism rests is under attack – think of all the industries that grew up around feminism, the domestic violence industry, the divorce industry, child support, and the piece de resistance, academic feminism, my goodness, all these poor hardworking feminists toiling away to keep body and soul together!

      None of this is possible without men paying enough TAX, none of this is possible unless men step up and supply the raw material. Marriage and children to give the divorce and child support industries a reason to exist. Relationships with women in which to manufacture domestic violence “victims”

      Without men engaging in these “social norms” there is no way to force wealth transfers from them to women. If feminists want to keep their lucrative little con going they need men to play their part, they need men to put themselves in position so they CAN be targeted.

      I believe Suzanne mentioned fear, and it is what lies at the heart of this, current spate of feminist inspired vitriol about MGTOW. Feminism is panicking, but alas, as always, is using exactly the wrong tactics to whip men back into line. Shame, scorn, derision, lies, and ludicrously, holding up modern women as “the bait” this whole “where have all the good men gone” crap. Pffft, answer – nowhere, look around ladies, all the “good men” are right here, watching you make complete and utter twats of yourselves, shrugging their shoulders and walking away. The question you should really be asking is “am I good enough?” Answer – not in this universe or in a parallel universe.

      Good Lord! Have feminists no brains at all? (scratch that – duh) feminism has created two, at least, generations of women who have embraced its toxic message and become…………..unbearable, shrill, obnoxious, irredeemably poisonous and avaricious creatures.

      THESE are the creatures that men are supposed to bind themselves too?

      Father children with, and have those children taken away from them? Put themselves in danger of being incarcerated for looking sideways at some hysterical nutcase? Work their fingers to the bone to provide a decent home and “lifestyle” then end up in some ratty apartment if lucky, and homeless or in jail if not?

      This is what all you whiny entitled princesses think men “should” sign up to? Grow a brain!

      • MGTOW-man

        Great idea for a bumper sticker: “Want to make feminism panic? MGTOW!

        Thanks for the imagery.

  • MGTOW-man

    The reason they do not like us MGTOW’s is because we neither fear them or fear the loss of them in all the ways they need us to—the entitled princesses they are, of course…the star of their own universe. Being MGTOW really puts a wrench in their cake batter: With us, there will be no cake and no cake to eat either.. Being MGTOW is related sort of in an inverse way, to the truth that they hate soooo much!

  • Arsenal

    Excellent Article! The behavior thing is really what grinds my gears these days…

    It’s funny that I am often labelled as being gay because I don’t actively pursue women, its not like it has anything to do with the fact that I find the behavior of most women in my age group detestable. I found myself a MGTOW before i even heard it defined. It’s so much easier now that I know how to describe it and I am even happier to know there are men and especially women who understand completely.

    What mystifies me most is how many men consider “pussy” the ultimate holy grail, if you aren’t “getting some” you can’t possibly be happy and they are somehow better than you for doing so. I am starting to believe its a combination of projection and a desperate need to convince others what they are doing is right when they know deep down they are not happy.

    Keep the good discussions coming AVFM contributors! Loving it!

    • MGTOW-man

      “I found myself a MGTOW before i even heard it defined.”
      —Me too, a long time ago…when men were “definitely gay” for not being just like all the other men. Now, some of those men, and more than just a few, with their own miserable history brimming with defeat, disappointment, and despair to bolster themselves, say to me, “man how did you do it?”

      Here’s how: By defining manhood for myself (after all it is mine, right) and not subscribing to the old tired, untrue, silly, one-size-fits-all manhood myth that emanates from a crowd that thinks manhood is group-owned and enforced but that ends up herded into a corral of had-suckers… chanting …” but at least I am a ‘man”.

      I/we have proven that the old standby scapegoat called the “hard-wiring” monopoly on male brains is a myth. Males can overcome this and had better, for the boys now-men of tomorrow will need more info about being a real man besides “how to get laid.”

      • endthefed76

        I can’t believe they’ve finally coined a phrase for this. Mom left dad when I was 8. That was in 1977. He was the second man she left. He became an ‘individualist’ immediately. At, and before
        his brother’s wedding, he was warning him not to do it. That she’d eventually leave him and clean him out. Sure enough, she eventually left him and took half his stuff. Of all the divorces in my family, the women have either left or forced the man out. of my parents and siblings, the first generation to marry after No-Fault Divorce, there have been 5 divorces out of 12 marriages(42%).
        In the next generation(mine), there have been 13 marriages and 5 divorces(39%). Sounds good, huh? The politicians will shout it from the roof tops, no doubt. But wait! There have been 3 of my generation who’ve sense enough not to marry in the first place. I’m the youngest, at 45. The next is 46, then 55. Men are wising up to ‘Shake Down’.

  • John Narayan

    MHFTOW = Men having fun their own way.

  • John Narayan

    MLTOW = Males living their own way
    MGTP = Males giving themselves permission
    MPONTW = Males partying on their own terms

  • John Narayan

    When the MGTOW’s get old we can set up an MGTOW nursing home of our own, rule #1 lots of video game consoles. #2 no mad lady cats or cat ladies. #3 OH&S ISO 9001 pole dancing allowed only. #4 Fully licensed
    #5…

    • Audrey

      i know i’m a girl, but if you guys are going to have a nursing home with lots of video games, you best believe, i will be finding a way in lol i’ll bring the chips?

      • Rafe G.B.

        Lol.

    • Goodguy

      great thing is that xbox kinect is really good in rest homes. creates a social object ie a hub of social interaction, physical movement, challenge, mental stimulation! I’m in guys! Audrey you play the winner!

      • Audrey

        u lost me at xbox lol :P

    • Rafe G.B.

      MUST be 9001 heh. Can’t be having any broken hips.

  • John Narayan

    Confusion is a state when ones goals are fragmented, unplanned, and/or set by somebody else. We must let our young men know this at a deep level as young as early as possible.

  • oldfart

    “will retreat to higher and higher ground, then you will have nowhere to run in the end. You have to fight back. There is nowhere safe. There is no line drawn that you can cross where they can’t come after you. ”

    I differ with the above opinion.
    It is those who must interact publicly with
    the ideologues that will feel the brunt of the pain,as they are easier to lay hands upon.

    What we are seeing is the system beginning to eat it’s own.
    Senior military men leaving training professions due to false accusations from female boot campers.
    College teachers and frat boys will feel the pain.

    The system always goes for the easier low hanging fruit.

    To ‘get’ a man mostly keeping to himself will require Draconian implementation that will alarm the whole of the populace before it can be successfully waged against the loner.

    This is why it has not been done already,every single person will have to be interrogated/accused in order to reach their end goals.
    That would requite a Soviet gulag style implementation.

    Not that we are so far away from that:
    But ‘important’ heads would roll in the making,and that is the bottleneck,the limiting factor.

    Which is why I say the best defense is to exaggerate and agree:
    “Yes those cops and judges are patriarchal oppressors,they are Protectors Gone Predator.”

    Spreading that meme will bring the pain to the enforcers of the matriarchal gulag quicker than they can get to the guy ghosting.

    Those damn judges with their patriarchal privileged.

    LGBT judges and cops only, as hetero-white males are inherently bad.

    Yeah, AS IF they could enforce their hetero-hatred themselves.
    THAT is your bottleneck.

    The enforcers will be the target.

  • Fed Up

    Strangely enough, I’ve never needed an acronym to be an individual

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA

    although this individual did need the approval of his mother!

  • Fergus

    Being gay, my perspective on this site may be unwelcome but an ‘outside’ has the advantage of not being particularly biased. Having said that, I was in a ‘straight’ relationship for six years and recognise many of the issues raised. I have to say that most women are not the cartoon feminists depicted by many on this site but my experience of working with hard-line feminists, one foot in education for 30-odd years, (the other in the grave,) certainly are. Being gay meant I was often assumed to be ‘safe’ and as a consequence heard expressed dreadful attitudes toward men; ‘all men are rapists’ among the worst.

    When my father was dying I witnessed how men are when apart from women. Dad had been a soldier in WWII and how he related to men of his generation and they to him was an eye-opener. The level of mutual care and dare I say, love… was unsentimental and moving. Thankfully, this and the short time we had helped me understand him as a man, not just a father, and how he had been portrayed by my mother. I’m sure she loved him but I realise she was angry because she could never control him.

    I was also reminded that when I was younger and thought being gay was a passing ‘phase’, I noticed that when young men acquired girlfriends, how soon they were forced to choose between their male friends and her. This separation seems to become the norm – women keep their women friends all their lives but men are usually manoeuvred into dropping their male friends, and support network, leaving them relatively isolated. Isn’t this how terrorists ‘turn’ their captives?

    Looking forward to varying levels of patronising and the odd thoughtful response.

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      Being gay, my perspective on this site may be unwelcome but

      Just so you know, being gay does not make your opinion here unwelcome, nor does it make you an outsider, unless all the other gay men here are outsiders, which they are not.

      You’re voice is welcome here. And if perchance you heard otherwise that this was not the case, then stick around and you will figured out that you have been lied to.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com August Løvenskiolds

      Being straight, I love my gay brothers and sisters and they are most welcome here. As Paul pointed out, anyone who has told you differently is a goddamn liar.

      When we talk about having compassion for men and boys, we mean ALL of them.

    • Goodguy

      Brother it was very touching to read your post, especially your experience with your father. This site is “A Voice for Men” – you’re a man, ergo you’re fully welcome here buddy! Otherwise they’d have to change the name of the website! Stick around mate. I look forward to reading more of your insightful comments. They help all of us grow. Go well brother :-)

    • Jimbo Jones

      Men’s Rights are Gay rights, and lesbian women have the right to make their own decision.

  • http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com Robert St. Estephe

    MGTOW is a 21st century term, but it is not a recent concept, 84 years ago a remarkably similar mind-set existed among men who saw an impending danger in risking exposure to societal female privilege and the widespread conscious exploitation of men by women who used them as tools under the guise of the legal minefield of the marriage trap. This is not to say that men could not find women of sterling character and join in marriage successfully, yet the MGTOW has long been a part of the culture in the US.

    Here is the situation as it was in 1929:

    “Why Can’t The Modern Woman See That She Is Killing the Goose That Lays the Golden Eggs When She Places a Commercial Value on Every Endearment a Man Utters, Cries Dorothy Dix,”

    Published on AVfM as “MGTOW in 1929″
    http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/mgtow-in-1929/

  • endthefed76

    I’ll go further. Feminism is an ‘extortion/pimping’ racket created by the government to attack men’s assets and earnings.

  • Audrey

    i actually just saw “MGTOW” for the 1st time in a comment on youtube. Google search and viola! Here I am. I think it’s awesome!!! I’ve been saying for years, how unfair I thought the whole ‘child support’ system was. And how it only added to the epidemic of fatherless homes. I had a friend who I noticed, like another poster said, was always upset or angry b/c she her guy would think for himself. Or would make a very light joke at her expense (which we all did to each other) and she would literally flip the fck out. I remember once, her hubby looked at me after she left the room and was like, “do you treat your guys (whoever i was dating at the time) the same way?” OMG, I wanted to hug him so badly. Anyways… I say more power to you guys!!! I think the child support system needs to change. For one it should be a set limit no matter how much someone makes. I don’t think it’s fair for a woman to put these kids in all different activities (another way to keep from you guys when it’s your days) on top of I read that, they make the guys pay if not all then half of the expense. When we all know if y’all would’ve stayed together, you probably wouldn’t have them in such and such. I also think its complete BULL that a woman can have a baby (NEVER telling you and YOU NEVER knowing) and keep it a secret only to come back 10 or 13yrs+ after the fact and get you for child support and back child support!!!! I think it should start right when they go into the office in the 1st place. But to me, I see that a reward for being a b!t(h. Sadly I have seen way too, many guys get screwed over. I believe they should teach child support laws in school so the young fellows would learn how badly they get screwed over legally. If I’m not mistaken I heard or read somewhere that even if you date a girl with a kid (lets say she doesnt receive child $ from the bio) and you’ve been there for idk 5 or 6 yrs, technically they can go after you for child support… nevertheless, this is cool. glad that y’all are ‘waking up’ and educating each other. No one else…

  • Patricia Pontius

    Actually to me I do not fend these men for there division from women now a days at all. It to me is not just a man or a woman issue but a people issue. Now a days there seems to be more games going on between relationships than I my self care to deal with. People to me now a days think it is funny to play stupid, childish games with other peoples lives. It is like they say one think and can not stop them self from doing what stupid whim comes in to there head. It is almost like they are incapable of growing up. I never was in to clicks in school. I always thought that it was a gang mentality. Yet it seems to me like we as a people are not evolving but going back toward the cave man form of thinking. It is like the feminism movement has take every single seance of man hood away from men. Is it any wonder they are so confused about women? God forbid you get one who has been taught his entire life how to act by bad women. Than it is like they think all women are the same and to be treated the same. Some women do value men and love there company and to pick there brain about how they think but as I my self have found out. Sometimes that is a very scary place to go sometimes. I think our world as a whole not just men is screwed because we have so taught women to act like men. They have forgotten how to act like ladies.

  • Willilly Bab

    A few years ago I got married because everyone else was getting married also. I was in my mid-30’s and I felt that since I found the lady I really liked and wanted to spend my life with, then maybe I should ‘step up to the plate’ and do my part and be a good man the way society tells us men to be. I liked the
    idea of companionship and having someone to travel with and talk about life with, but after a few years she lost alost all interest in sex with me. She still wanted me to pay the bills and in fact her appetite for spending my income actually GREW as her desire for sex with me SHRANK. Eventually
    we split up after I found out that she was cheating on me with 4 other men, but we are still friends and talk once in a while. (All her lovers left her alone after they got the sex they wanted and they all moved on to other women, leaving her ‘HATING all men, now she’s a lesbian; THANK GOD.)

    I like talking with women but I don’t
    see any benefit to pursuing them. If all you want is sex then you have to look at marriage with one woman as being similar to investing all of your time and money into buying a restaurant where there will be only one type of pizza created, always with the same toppings, and now that will be the ONLY food you will be allowed to eat for the rest of your life. When I think about that I really do understand how a woman could lose her desire for her husband the way my ex-wife lost her desire = it’s just natural since who wants to eat the same pizza every day forever, right? And when you think about it; isn’t having female friends at work, and visiting ESCORTS at night 1000-times better if sex is the main thing you want from a woman?

    I’m older now and sex is not #1 on my list anymore (It’s #4 or 5). What I want now is someone to talk with, and someone to travel with, but I don’t see why I have to marry the lady just for that.

    Women often tell me “Why is a great
    guy like you still single?” Frankly I don’t see the benefits of what’s
    in it for me. Sex is okay at first, but it’s not worth the massive
    amounts of time and attention and money/gifts I have to devote to a
    lady, that’s how I feel. Going on 10+ dates, spending $100+ on each
    date, and only after all of that there is only a 20% chance of getting
    lucky, for an investment of hundreds of hours and $1000, just for sex?
    NO THANKS.

    Last month I took a trip to Paris just to see what the Eiffel Tower
    looked like and it cost me only $980 for the whole trip and it was a lot
    more fun than 10 dates with some lady who just wants to chat about her
    new shoes or handbags. I talked to a few lady friend of mine and I asked them if they would want to travel with me, they all said ‘YES’. A few seconds later when I told them that each of us would pay for our own travel and hotel costs, but we would enjoy talking about the things we see on the trip, every one of those women changed their mind and said ‘NO THANKS, I’D RATHER GO ALONE.’

    For some strange reason the women feel that the men should pay for them to come along, and when there is no men willing to pay for the trip for the women, these women prefer to be WITHOUT the men. But really; if there is no sex, and nothing but simple friendship, why would a guy want to fork out his money?

    So as a final offer to these women, I told all 14 of them that next month I’m getting a new Mercedes and if any of them are interested in a Car trip (road trip) to any place in North America, I’ll pay 100% for the transportation costs, and she can choose when and where we go, what we eat, and what hotels we will stay at, but since we are only traveling as simple non-sexual friends she has to pay for her food and her share of the hotel costs. The only thing I’m supplying is the free luxury transportation to anywhere she wants to go. Guess what? It’s been 6 months now and not one of them has taken me up on my offer. Instead 2 of them have just traveled to Cuba together and did not even ask me if I wanted to come along. As you can see, women really don’t want a guy unless he’s footing the bills for her.

    I don’t hate women, I actually like them, it’s just that I don’t see any
    benefits into investing any time or money trying to create
    relationships with them, and I see more and more guys these days feeling
    the same way as I do.

    So if more and more guys begin to turn MGTOW, is this a GOOD thing for
    society at large, will it be good because we don’t care if women are
    there or not, and thus the amount of rape and abuse of women goes to
    zero? Frankly I think it is good, the world has too many babies
    anyways, right?

  • Willilly Bab

    I read that for people under the age of 35; 24% of men have cheated on their wives, and 19% of women have cheated on their husbands. So it’s about the same. If you get married you kind of have to go into it with the understanding that the other side has a 20% chance of cheating on you eventually. And when you think of marriage that way and the ruinous results of divorce, a guy would have to be NUTS to want to get married these days. Sorry about your crushing effects of your divorce, I can understand how that feels since I went through it too after I caught my ex cheating with 4 other guys.
    The funny thing is that when women are in their 20’s they have the whole universe trying to get into their pants. Guys who are 20, 30, 40, even 50, are desiring sex with them. So you have to see how the women have a high incentive to cheat since there is so much temptation. But after about 30 to 35, so many women just go DOWN-HILL, lose their shape and lose their looks. I see photos of women who had a great hourglass figure and youthful look at 28, but by the time they are 32 the hourglass figure is gone, replaced by a dude-like figure, and they look like the Sea-Hags from those old Popeye cartoons. And by the time they reach the age of 40 = YUCK, sorry but I don’t even want to look at them, they are revolting and take my appetite away. No way do I want to marry any of them. I don’t mind being friends and chatting with them, or giving them free car trips, but that’s about as far as I dare go with them.
    Now I’m 50 and rich, the older mid-40’s women want me to pay their bills and I don’t see why I should have to, they didn’t want me when I was 20 and poor so now I don’t want them when they are 40 and poor either.

  • Willilly Bab

    If Feminism was only about women’s equality and fight for ‘equal rights’ then I would be all for it, but it’s gone way over into “Militant Feminism”, bashing and destroying men for no reason, and that’s just wrong.

  • Notorious_bob

    Misandry means “live the lie or die alone”. Dare to point out inequality as it swings the other way and you are cut-off. I made the vile mistake of pointing out that men swing at their jobs because we have obligations and no rights. Women never have to take criticism they dont want to hear because their bosses are afraid to be sued. Men take abuse because we have to feed our families.

    • driversuz

      So very true!

    • rdracr

      OH! I can see the validity in that statement… hmmm…. a absolute conclusion. take the very best of care!

  • Notorious_bob

    today, i was called everything from a eugenicist to a misogynist for suggesting that women dont have the same standard of job-security as men because men take-crap as breadwinners that women would hire a feminist lawyer over. Men will let a male boss tell them (no matter how much intellect they may have) that they are an idiot. Find me a SINGLE SOLITARY WOMAN with above a bachelors degree that will allow a male supervisor to DARE criticize their analytical comprehension and I will show you Gloria Allred’s latest pet-project.

    • rdracr

      how about this fact:

      out of 100 Fortune companies headed by the “fairer” gender… 89 of them were driven into the ground within a year… can you say shoe shopping?

      the wage gap is based on women working part time, but they won’t admit to that either…

      personally… I think women need to be more informed instead of opinionated… because relative truth to win a lost argument is completely childish when the Absolute Truth is evident.

  • BaldheadedFoo

    Hate to bust you boys’ bubble but the main culprit in setting back heterosexual american men these days isn’t feminists or women in general. ITS OTHER MEN!!!! Politicians, Judges, Employers, entertainers, PUAs, in-laws, etc all grovel to women’s interests for their own selfish needs. Men, as a group, have the highest percentage of sellouts and are threatened by each other – we are highly stratified in this country.

    Women stick together across races, classes, and cultures based on a common interest of progressing their needs. This will likely never change. Not saying that women aren’t inherently evil or manipulative because many of them certainly appear that way. But you cannot ignore the male factor in the declining status of american/western males. BTW, African-American men have been going through this transformation since the Civil Rights period ended thanks to the type of men I mentioned earlier. Anyway, this is why middle eastern and developing nations have remained staunchly patriarchal because they see what has happened to us. Their woman remain in traditional roles and STILL have babies and focus on their family first, which is why they will eventually outnumber us – even in Europe!

    Not sure what can realistically be done about these social changes other than recognizing them as an individual and protecting yourself. Most men will always succumb to peer pressure of pleasing women/society and sacrificing their own best interests.

    • rdracr

      you are correct… a corrupt system influenced by women’s wants instead of needs is indeed a culprit in all of this… women are playing games… and that is all… and everything they do is a choice, backed up by an excuse when caught – BUT NOT ALL WOMEN… just the lost Disney hoe’s. The ones who whine and b!tch = the guiltiest of them all…

  • Datte Hakamura

    How about we just don’t want to be slaves?

  • Justin Thomas

    When women go into long diatribes about MGTOW and usually insert the phrase “won’t miss ya!”, I usually ask them “If you won’t miss them, then why does the idea of Men GTOWing upset you so much?”

    I never get a clear answer.

  • rdracr

    Esther Vilar – “The Manipulated Man” = free PDF dl on the web as long as you catch it before women yell and scream to get it banned for another 40 years again… better get it quick! SEARCH IT UP!