dismayed shocked man

The limited horizon of “Game”

Let me highlight what I consider to be the prime reason for the myopia of the entire PUA scene. It can be summarized as one word: pussy.

The image people in the game community like to portray is that they are all pussy-slayers of the highest caliber. They revere their “gurus”, even though many of them have little to no experience with women. Some are even less experienced than many of the feeble men they count as their followers. There have been spectacular revelations, such as that one of the most “famous” gurus has only dated two women in his entire life. That guy is 40 or 50, so time couldn’t have been the issue. Then there was some other PUA who was somewhat in the media spotlight some years ago — he has only had sex with a grand total of one woman before styling himself to be a pickup guru.

This scene is incredibly fucked up. Basically, you get all those men who, for whatever reason, couldn’t even get laid in a brothel. At the same time, many of them hold the absurd belief that if they only got laid, or if they only had a girlfriend, then their life would be complete. Instead of misery, everything would be unicorns and rainbows. They sure have been drinking the Hollywood kool-aid. But is pussy really the answer, or the potential beginning of much bigger problems? If anything, there seems to be hardly any awareness of all the serious potential problems that stem from getting involved with women, and I’m not just thinking of STDs.

Let’s talk about some of those issues.

First, there are guys out there who advocate hitting on basically any woman. They say it’s no problem if she’s drunk because she’s only drinking to have some “plausible deniability” for her behavior, should she go home with some dude. Well, there is some truth to that. However, her being drunk will put you in a very unfortunate situation should she remember the next day that she actually does have a boyfriend. A false rape accusation is the easy way out for her, and there are countless stories to be found online of guys who ended up in this exact same situation.

Too bad for Mister PUA, though. He listened to the call of his cock instead of the call of reason. You could be forgiven for thinking that PUAs would rather deal with a false rape accusation than not getting laid at all. Sure, you could say that the risk is comparatively small, and this may be true, but why would you enter a deal where you could only get a modest gain, when there is also the risk of an unlimited downside?

Then, there is this trend that people write about how they “game their wife,” so that she has sex with them. Here’s a big question for that kind of “gamer”: How did you end marrying a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with you? Marriage is a legal minefield, so I hope that all the PUAs who “quit the game,” after they ran into some single mom who realized that she had found a meal ticket, did their homework — instead of thinking that by “gaming their wife” they’ll keep her on her toes? If you think that the downside of getting involved with a drunk girl was bad, then you’ll surely agree that this is nothing compared to the situation of guys who marry women despite countless red flags. How does “game” help you with that? Oh, I forgot, you just game your wife and everything will be fine and dandy.

The standard explanation when things didn’t work out, no matter whether the PUA was hitting on a chick in a bar but got turned down, or just received his divorce papers in the mail, is rather peculiar. The reason is always that there was a problem with his “game.” What about acknowledging that many women behave in a highly erratic manner, which means that you’ll put yourself at risk, and as a consequence you shouldn’t even think of bothering with her? Regarding the sky-high divorce rate of our times, you’d have to be pretty naive to think that there are no women out there who primarily have an economic motive when getting involved with you. But don’t worry, bro, maybe you can “game” the judge, too, and get out of supporting your ex-wife for decades.

The legal system is stacked against men, and I applaud any guy who chooses to go his own way, considering the many obstacles society has put up. Some say that having kids is the greatest joy in life. Sadly, the legal system is set up in a way that it’s almost impossible for the mother not to get custody. She could be a drug abuser, and have a criminal record, and still the assumption would be that it’s better for the kid to stay with the mother–no matter how the law is written, this is still how most judges think and they accept almost any excuse to make it so. If she then denies visitation rights to the father, in most cases she won’t even get a slap on the wrist.

On the other hand, should the father not pay, or be unfortunate that he can’t pay as much as the court determined he has to pay, based on some pie-in-the-sky calculation of his “imputed income,” he can end up in prison. How would “game” help you with that, bro? To me it seems that if you can’t get laid, instead of picking a girl from a questionable background, you’re infinitely better off going your own way. And even if you have women chasing after you, it’s a good idea to generally be apprehensive about getting involved with one.

When I was a boy, I asked a friend of my father why he didn’t have a wife. He then looked at me, nodded, and described his decision not to marry with the following allegory:

“Imagine you can chose between two bridges. One of the bridges looks very stable, but some say it’s lonely to walk on it. But there is another bridge, and everybody tells you to go that way. It’s supposed to lead to a much happier place. Yet, when you ask them about their happiness, they have a hard time showing any proof. All you seem to hear is that they argue in the distance, when they think they are out of earshot. You then walk up to that bridge, and look down into the valley. Then you notice that there are countless dead bodies scattered between the rocks. Some of those men slipped, but most were pushed to their death by the person they were traveling with, and thought they could trust. Some guy sits down next to you and says, ’50 % of the men who attempt to cross that bridge don’t make it. They lose everything.’”

Then he looked at me and asked, “Now tell me, why do you think I didn’t want to take a wife?”

I think there is a big difference between mature men who chose a certain course of action, while being fully aware of the risks, and guys who rush headlong into misfortune. I’ve seen guys getting wrecked in a divorce. I know guys who have to support their ex-wives because she’s too lazy to get a job. Or too busy fucking some new guy. I also know of guys who barely see their children, because their mother doesn’t allow it.

Oh, and I certainly know of many women any guy would have to be utterly insane to get involved with for anything more than a one-night stand, if that. Not many of those women seemed to have a problem finding some sucker, though.

But does “game” address any of this? Legal issues, and also the problem of wide-ranging personal consequences if you get involved with the wrong kind of woman aren’t even on the radar for the vast majority of people in the PUA community. They hardly look past the next pussy they hope to pound. However, the more you explore the contemporary legal situation, the more your should realize that getting involved with women is maybe not worth it, considering all the risks. Do your homework, man! The PUAs chant “pussy, pussy, pussy!” and ignore all the issues you might run into if you follow their call all too eagerly. How “alpha” is it to pay alimony for 20 years?

You could even easily end up paying for a kid that isn’t yours. Paternity fraud is common, but for the legal system it’s apparently a non-issue. The way “progressive” governments in many countries deal with it is to ban genetic testing, meaning that you’ll end up in jail if you dare to have your kids DNA tested. Or, in some places, it won’t matter if you have the DNA test, if you were married when she gave birth, that’s it, you’re legally the father. They don’t care whether the kid you’re paying for is actually yours.

Women can claim they got raped or beaten, divorce you on a whim, take your kids, and enslave you to a lifetime of alimony and support payments. This is true in countless places.

No, not all women are out to harm you. Most women aren’t that evil. But there are enough toxic women out there that you should be very careful about whom you intend to get involved with. Frankly, I don’t think that pussy is really worth that price. It’s better to not pursue a woman you’ve got a bad feeling about — or where the pole with the red flag hits you right in the face — than to fall over yourself trying to get laid. This is what I assume mature men do. However, “gamers” belong to a different breed. Like insects swarming around a Venus flytrap, they wonder, “Geez, how bad could this be?”.

About Jalon Cain (aka Aaron Sleazy)

Jalon Cain ("Aaron Sleazy") has extensively written on male and female dating behavior. His work includes two (free) books that helped to widely discredit the so-called seduction or "PUA" community. He recently developed an allergy against female and feminist bigotry.

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  • alek

    I’ll steal an idea from Black Pill who wrote a nice piece on this, and it explains why we consider “gamers” to be blue pill – they (like all other misandric camps) give women no agency, and assign 100% of agency onto men.

    =========================
    The most Dangerous Idea In The World: Women Have Agency
    =========================

    While liberals, conservatives, and many other groups have different ideas, one thing they will agree on is that women have no agency. Here is a sampling of answers you would get if you asked members of various groups if women have agency (and they answered honestly).

    Liberals: No, anything bad a woman does is the fault of the patriarchy and sexism. The world is ruled by misogynistic conservative men, and women have no power. Anything good that happens to women is the result of “benevolent sexism” which women have no control over. Women are forced into becoming housewives and mothers they do not want to be.

    Conservatives: No, anything bad a woman does is the fault of liberals and feminists tricking them. Women don’t even have agency when it comes to abortions which are the result of trickery by men. Women are forced into jobs and careers they do not want.

    White (Vagina Worshiping) Nationalists: No, anything bad a woman does is the result of the Jews and minorities tricking them into feminism and multiculturalism. The Jews have been so successful in tricking women that they can convinced (white) women to act against their own race. Everything bad a woman does is caused by the Jews so women aren’t responsible for the bad acts they do.

    Conspiracy Theorists: No, anything bad a woman does is the result of the Rockefellers, the Jews, and other rich people conspiring to trick women into feminism. The real enemy is the Rockefellers, the Jews, etc. (and minorities) who are conspiring to depopulate the world so women aren’t responsible for their behavior.

    Gamers: No, women’s bad acts and erratic behaviour are the correct biological response to men who lack game. Women can’t be held responsible for their own biology. Up your game.

    P.S – Here’s some good satire about how misinterpreting/reinterpreting evo-psych can be used to justify anything.

    In this case, John went in and used game marketer techniques to write how an article would look like if game was something that targetted female insecurities (abusing evo-psych)…

    http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-if-pua-methods-were-taught-to.html

    (I shit you not, on the humuliating game-debate 2 years ago, some gamer came in saying that misandric laws were no issue since you can just “game the judge”, and another said that false rape accusations only happen to “men with no game”. I wish I was making this shit up).

    • Frimmel

      “Liberals: No, anything bad a woman does is the fault of the patriarchy and sexism. The world is ruled by misogynistic conservative men, and women have no power. Anything good that happens to women is the result of “benevolent sexism” which women have no control over. Women are forced into becoming housewives and mothers they do not want to be.”

      Politically I’m a liberal. Classic “New Deal” democrat. My problem with the Affordable Care Act is that it isn’t genuine socialized medicine. I don’t ascribe to a damn bit of what you described there.

      • alek

        The point he was making that all major misandric groups have in common (AS A GENERAL GROUP) that they excuse and rationalize away female erratic behaviour and take agency away from women. Not that every member in the given group is an exact clone…

        The only group (as A GENERAL GROUP) that is promoting agency of women is MRAs.

      • Jotty

        I’m liberal as well. I also don’t ascribe to a single thing in that list.

        However, I have no difficulty spotting that that particular attitude permeates a *lot* of what guides liberal policies, and I personally know a ton of “liberals” who believe precisely these things. They have no problem with asinine generalizations like women good, men bad, men have every advantage, women historically oppressed, patriarchy, rape culture, or any of that shit.

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          Yep. This is one reason why I myself often get into trouble, because I’ll make generaliations about “liberals” that I believe to be true, and I’ll make generalizations about conservatives that I believe to be true, and libertarians, and others, and every time I do that people assume I’m “on the oposite side” of that.

          I had no trouble recognizing modern American liberals in that re-posting by Alek since I know people who *think exactly like that*. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, you’ll find plenty of people just like that at the next Democratic National Convention.

          You hear me say that and you think “oh, a right-winger or a libertarian huh?” Uhm, no. I refuse to be pigeonholed beyond the label of “classical liberal,” which means I take my issues one at a time, collect as many facts as I can, and go from there, and I recognize that other people may have information I don’t, or, may look at the same information I have and come to a different conclusion. It’s called “being human.”

          I’ve met people who match the other descriptions very well too.

          If I could I’d never use the terms “left” or “right” or “conservative” or “liberal” again, but it appears impossible to have some conversations without using them at least some of the time.

          I mentioned this not long ago to Victor Zen: it will actually be a crisis point for the Men’s Human Rights Movement the first time a major political candidate takes a very strong pro-male stance on something. And I mean on something big, like, cracking down on alienating mothers and paternity fraud. If a Republican does that, all the lefty/Democrat leaning MHRAs will freak out. If a Democrat does that, then the predictable response will be a freakout on the right.

          Mind you, it will be a high-class problem to have. But it will be a problem. ;-)

        • alek

          Its interesting to note that feminists often use the “but we’re not a monolith group” as a way to shield themselves from criticism.

          If that were a valid excuse then not a single group/ideology on the planet would be allowed to be criticized, since no major ideology is monolithic :D

          When we criticize groups, we generalize, because that is the only way to criticize a GROUP. When we say a group promotes a certain belief/value it doesn’t mean EVERY member of that group subscribe to that value/belief :D :D :D (i love it when people get butthurt and take it personally when its pointed out that their own group promotes a value they personally dislike)

          –> Are there INDIVIDUALS who label themselves “conservative” but do NOT believe in chivalry and paternalism towards women? OF COURSE.

          –> Does conservativism (as an ideology) PROMOTE the idea of paternalism and chivalry and provide/protect role toward women. OF COURSE.

      • Bluedrgn

        I too generally identify as “liberal”. I have no idea why your bringing the ACA into the discussion.

        What he said is pretty much true. It amazes me how so many liberals can tie everything into sexism. It also amazes me how many buy into the woman=good, man=bad way of thinking.

        Most of the time anytime a woman is charged with a crime, liberals come out in force to defend her. “She must have been abused as a child”, or “she only killed her husband because he was abusive”.

        And most of them are perfectly willing to throw due process out the window the second any man is accused of rape. Aren’t liberals supposed to be in favor of civil liberties?

  • MGTOW-man

    This is where many of our fathers failed us—and continue to do it today!@#$%^&*!!. EVEN IN THE WAKE OF FEMINIST HATRED-LACED CHANGES FOR EVERYONE EVERYWHERE ABOUT EVERYTHING with fallout for males choking their very throats, they foolishly didn’t teach their boys to pursue women smarter and if not smarter, then not at all. They have taught their boys to lose if they have to, but make sure they “get the girl” no matter what. The men are hung up on the same old stagnant manhood myths that revolve around women/kids, using “hardwiring” as a scapegoat for every time they wind up with egg on their faces, broke, miserable, with stolen kids, but still chanting the”At least I am a (real) man” confusion spill.

    Biology is part of it, but so is societal reinforcement, thus it can be changed at least to the extent that it can. Do we not want to know where that threshold is?

    Change men and we change the world. This article is doing a great job at trying. Thank you. Those who know how, please see that it gets spread on the net in every way you can.

    • alek

      Biology and shoddy illiterate misinterpretations of evo-psych are in fact way too often used as a way to excuse crappy behaviour.

      Here’s proof:
      http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-if-pua-methods-were-taught-to.html

      • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

        Word. It’s amazing how people can go from “sperm is cheap, eggs are expensive” (true) to “male disposability is just the way it is!” (bullshit)

        Or: “Women tend to appreciate a guy who’s assertive and protective” (true) to “Be the Alpha In Charge” (never mind that the whole alpha/beta thing is bullshit, it was created to describe wolf behavior and after a while biologists abandoned it because they realized it didn’t accurately describe wolf relationships, and that trying to be in charge of everything all the time is a sure recipe for early death).

        You know, I appreciate some of what I see in Game Theory at least as an alternative to the Romantic-Comedy Hollywood pap, and for making guys start thinking about things outside of the narrative of lies we’re force-fed about how men are “supposed” to act, and you know, if it was just some coaching for guys on how to be a little less insecure, a little more confident in themselves, not feel like dirt for getting shot down, and to even be willing to find ways to make women chase you sometimes not the other way around, great. But holy cow, the way some of these guys oversell it is just terrible.

        I was quite entranced with Game when I first explored it. I find maybe 20, 25% of it valid and probably useful. But even there, proceed with caution.

        I don’t hate the PUAs. I do think it’s ultimately a suckhole of nihilism with a big dose of snake oil, but hey, nothing is absolutely worthless or absolutely good. (Well, Paul Elam is absolutely worthless and pure unadulterated evil, but, you know, besides that.)

        • alek

          Word. It’s amazing how people can go from “sperm is cheap, eggs are expensive” (true) to “male disposability is just the way it is!” (bullshit)

          Here’s a masterpiece article which flips the entire thing by using the same type of evo-psych as if game was something marketed toward female insecurities. This article (through merely flipping the genders) masterfully displays how evo-psych can be abused toward any means.

          http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-if-pua-methods-were-taught-to.html

        • hatredisfoolish

          Yes! That’s why I like the term ‘Zeta Male’. It totally subverts the alpha/beta/omega wolf pack bullshit men have been force-fed for years. Zeta puts masculinity back in the hands of men; to define it as they choose. That responsibility is something that appeals to me enormously. When I’ve described myself as a ‘Zeta’ people are intrigued. They want to know more.

          Perfect :D

          • MGTOW-man

            Profound words you speak. absolutely true. More Zetas will also eventually make women come around to understand how wrong radical feminism has been, is, and always will be. If this doesn’t work, nothing will.

      • http://gynocentrism.com/2013/07/14/about/ Peter Wright (Tawil)

        “Biology and shoddy illiterate misinterpretations of evo-psych are in fact way too often used as a way to excuse crappy behaviour.”

        Yep, I’d go so far as to say evo-psych literature is itself saturated with unscientific conclusions and misinterpretations of the evidence they have found. It’s the least rigorous of any science, producing little more than gender-essentialist propaganda every bit as credible as ‘creation science’. Just like creation science, evo psych works with empirical evidence and then draws the wildest conclusions based on that evidence. Steer well clear.

        • Astrokid

          Peter,
          What is the basis of your assessment?
          This subject has been discussed by Evolutionary Biologist Jerry Coyne, an erstwhile critic who has come around.
          http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/is-evolutionary-psychology-worthless/
          http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/07/07/a-defense-of-evolutionary-psychology-mostly-by-steve-pinker/

          • http://gynocentrism.com/2013/07/14/about/ Peter Wright (Tawil)

            Hi Astrokid,

            I haven’t read any of the critics of evo psych, but have read around 100 (guess) EP studies been consistently surprised at the reductionist conjectural leaps made from the data to the conclusions. That doesn’t mean they are all bad – there were a few excellent studies among them. The overall picture however was a discipline that appears eager to essentialise psychological traits along sex lines without sufficient attention to psychological plasticity along with the brain-shaping influences of culture.

            I don’t care to break it down further into examples because, in its current form I reject EP and have no patience for it. There is every chance the discipline will break free of traditionalist assumptions about the sexes, which would bring me back for another look.

  • MGTOW-man

    Not that it is this bad for most of us, but it is better to have nothing than to have something you don’t want.

  • IndependentShock

    I like the last point on that not “all women are like that” and that most women are not evil. This is certainly true. One point is missing though. Evil or not, they all have friends. And among their friends there bound to be one “toxic woman” or two who will persuade a not evil one (your ex, assuming you are smart enough to pick someone who is not “evil”) that it is the right course of actions to screw you in the family court. “You deserve this”, “He is a jerk” or whatever else. Since your ex is likely to be upset with you (not b/c that you did something wrong but because it’s a break up, baby!) who do you think she is going to listen? Most likely it will be the toxic friend.

    In this sense watching for red flags…. is meaningless, really. Are you also going to be watching for red flags in all of her girlfriends? All the websites and forums that she can visit after the break up?

    • Bombay

      Ten thousand thumbs up. Government supports all sorts of organizations that also advocate screwing over the man.

    • alek

      I like how Paul put it in a radio show (I’m paraphrasing off of memory)

      “It’s not that women are worse people or anything for abusing the system, JUST AS MANY MEN WOULD DO IT TOO if they had the same privilege. The family court system is rigged to encourage women to at ‘the push of a button’ get and abuse everything a man has with ease and impunity. If things were the other way round, and men had that special magical button given to them, would just as many men abuse it? Most likely.”

  • tamerlame

    I like to game women, I just don’t get the chance to, not many women into video games out there! (Sorry rotten joke!)

  • Groot

    “How did you end marrying a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with you?”

    I think that the clear answer to this question is that she wanted to have sex with him before, and probably for some period after the marriage (most likely before they were finished having children). Marriages tend to not start off as sexless.

    • Billybobownway

      I recall hearing on CBC radio a woman promoting her book “101 Reasons Why Girls should Get Married”.

      Reason #1; to avoid sex, “If you live with a boyfriend he will expect sex every day. Get married and you won’t have to.” I was stunned when I heard that. I had a wife who could not keep her hands off of me before we were married but put the brakes on right after the wedding. I noticed her sister was the same. They were really beautiful girls.

  • http://lostsailor32.wordpress.com/ LostSailor

    Dude, we get it. You don’t think much of women and you don’t like them much. Feel free to go your own way. But when you do it with “anti-game” rants like this, you reveal a level of butthurt that comes off as pathetic whining. And your continued insistence that PUA=Game when, while sharing a few core concepts, they are completely different shows that you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re myopia prevents you from seeing clearly.

    My understanding of MGTOW is that it comes from a positive position of strength rather than the butthurt negative position you’re advocating. By haranguing men to avoid Game because that pussy is dangerous, you’re not advocating men going their own way, you’re begging them to go your way. Why? Unknown, but it seems like you’re seeking validation.

    That you want to go your own way fearful of women is fine. Your business, not mine. But a lot of us still enjoy women and enjoy sex. Nothing wrong with that, either. And if Game helps–and it does–nothing wrong with that. This anti-game ranting doesn’t help the cause of MHRM, berating other men who don’t do as you would have them do. Men in the Gameopsphere (which, I’ll note again for the slower-minded, is not the same as PUA) are natural allies of the MHRM and screeching at them because they don’t follow your dictates is counter-productive.

    • Sheldon Walker

      “Screeching at other men because they don’t follow your dictates is petty & adolescent.”

      Beautifully said. There is nothing wrong with people having different methods to reach a common goal. This just comes across as sour grapes imo. You tried game got curved by some chick and decided to start a crusade against the evils of it.

      Live and let live quit whining.

      • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

        I think perhaps you have misinterpreted the nature of this site.

        The editorial slant, if you will, of AVFM is based on how severely men fail/refuse/avoid recognizing the inherent risks with women in this culture, not necessarily all of them from women as much as from our systems of governance and social conditions.

        What you are calling whining (fuck you for the shame attempt, btw) I call education and analysis.

        One of the things I really like about Tom Leykis, for instance, is that while much of what he does is hardcore PUA in nature, he never shuts up about the risks involved. He integrates a strong message of self protection, which is why he is the only one that could remotely be described as PUA that I have real respect for.

        There is a whole legion on snake oil salesmen, Roissy, Roosh, and others whose song and dance is “screeching at other men because they don’t follow your dictates…”

        You see them at it regularly, entertaining their gullible customers by strutting like peacock jocks, bragging about their sexual conquests and often trashing MHRAs simply for dedicating themselves to raising men’s awareness.

        From a personal perspective I think a lifestyle of blind pussy begging is not only dangerous, but for me a life balancing a beach ball my nose hoping to be tossed a scrap of fish would not be good for my self image in the long run, no matter how much pussy I got. And I have had more than my share of pussy.

        Game hucksters are just one more of many problems that young men face in this culture because they have too few options. It happens to sell because, duh, pussy sells. I think some other guys figured that out before these low rent assholes showed up to play on men’s insecurities with women.

        • TheLoneMaverick

          Now if only this article were sent over to the PUA’s over at Return of Kings, who write about gaming women with eating disorders and then feminists give them more validation for it…

        • zuismanm

          SO – let us see…
          You are dealing with issue Y.
          You come to people that gathered around dealing with issue X (that have many commonalities with Y but they are definitely different issues) and begin to rant on them, that they are fucking better gonna man up, and cast away their turmoil around X and join you in your crusade for Y. Or else – you are lost…
          And that is not wining? THAT IS WINING!!. And blaming and shaming!
          You have your political goals that you thing are valid and extremely important( I also think so) – so – go and fight for them by political means. Instead of it you target population of creepy , sexually deprived males and attempt to keep them creepy and sexually deprived , while in addition blaming and shaming them to force them to though their self onto barricades of your holly war against BIG VAGINA? That is what remained from big promise of “journey for better future for our boys”?
          Sorry – but it is pathetic and beastly.

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

      I didn’t seed any “butthurt,” nor did I see a dislike of women. I also didn’t see and “anti-game rant;” I saw a clear and calm catalog of the LIMITS of game, and of the very real risks of ignoring (or being unaware of) those limits.

      Strawman much?

      • http://lostsailor32.wordpress.com/ LostSailor

        What about acknowledging that many women behave in a highly erratic manner, which means that you’ll put yourself at risk, and as a consequence you shouldn’t even think of bothering with her? Regarding the sky-high divorce rate of our times, you’d have to be pretty naive to think that there are no women out there who primarily have an economic motive when getting involved with you. But don’t worry, bro, maybe you can “game” the judge, too, and get out of supporting your ex-wife for decades….And even if you have women chasing after you, it’s a good idea to generally be apprehensive about getting involved with one.

        Completely championing women there, right?

        But does “game” address any of this? Legal issues, and also the problem of wide-ranging personal consequences if you get involved with the wrong kind of woman aren’t even on the radar for the vast majority of people in the PUA community.

        Complaining like this about the “limits” of Game is like complaining about the “limits” of a screwdriver because it’s not a hammer. Talk about a strawman. Since Game isn’t intended to address problems of men’s rights in the legal system or in divorce, claiming that it doesn’t do this is a “limit” is not only not clear and calm, it’s nonsensical.

        • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

          Please quote where I said he was championing women.

          Game is a tool used for a specific purpose and it can be effective for that purpose. This article addresses what game gurus prefer to ignore or downplay – the fact that the “purpose” itself is risky, and that game does little or nothing to mitigate the risks.

          “…Game isn’t intended to address problems of men’s rights…”
          Not only does game not address those problems, it’s proponents encourage men to mentally dissociate them with the pursuit of pussy.

          • zuismanm

            Not only does game not address those problems, it’s proponents encourage men to mentally dissociate them with the pursuit of pussy.
            That is simply lie.
            At Chatteu site I have seen numerous posts speaking about creepy and dangerous females behaviors.

          • alek
            Not only does game not address those problems, it’s proponents encourage men to mentally dissociate them with the pursuit of pussy.

            That is simply lie.

            At Chatteu site I have seen numerous posts speaking about creepy and dangerous females behaviors.

            - You fail at both logic and reading comprehension.

            - She did not say that gamers stay silent on these behaviours, so she can’t lie by not having said what you misread due to your game-toxified brain.

            - What she DID say was that game doesn’t ADDRESS those issues.

            - Do you NOT understand the difference between MENTIONING an occurrence and ADDRESSING IT?

            - She also said gamers promote that men “mentally dissociate them with the pursuit of pussy” which is TRUE.

            Gamers say “boy, some women sure do cunty behaviour x, here’s a technique on how to pump her attraction to you anyway (make her like you/win her pussy)” – i.e. the general emphasis is “winning pussy”, not addressing those issues but side-stepping them to “win the pussy” ANYWAY.

            Quit the “not all gamers/feminists are like that” defense, it don’t fly around here

            When we criticize a group, we generalize about what it generally promotes and give examples of values/beliefs that permeate it. You can’t simply say “oh well example x doesn’t apply to every single member of the group, therefore your criticism is invalid”

            That’s fucking bullshit – using that same logic we couldn’t criticize feminism EITHER since NOT ONE of the shitty/nutty/misandric things we write about feminists applies to “all feminists”, and every single example we can give has millions of feminists that it doesn’t apply to. So what, feminism is now ok? What are you, fucking insane?

            P.S
            If you accuse Suzzane of “being a lier one more time – your ass is out of here.

    • alek

      Lost Sailor, I was actually composing a peaceful, nice response to your stupid, but polite comment earlier in the thread, but in the middle of writing my reply I saw this new comment you made here – a petty shaming, petty vitriolic attack on Jalon, and you are now banned, thanks for playing.

      For the record – Jalon got infamous (and revered among PUAs) because he was infamous for quick 5-minute pulls in clubs and bathrooms, he has shown more results than most “game gurus”. He has laid more poontang than you can dream of, and your shaming/petty attack is kind of ironic.

      He is currently (ironically enough) [I believe?] married, and after setting many records in his sexual escapades he did quite a few long-term relationships. He is not MGTOW, he is just highly supportive of MGTOW as the “smartest decision”.

      Also, for the record ALL OF US (major) anti-gamers are EX-GAMERS. So I laugh when I see some new kiddie accuse us of being “bitter virgins afraid of game”. Fuck, I was in it for 10 years. TEN YEARS. For fucks sake I fucking did it professionally, and I still own the biggest game forum in my part of the world (it just has a sticky declaring that all of us admins have overcome and no longer believe in game, but most of our members are dumb fucks like you who believe in “game” and we just let them overgrow it with time).

      I had done thousands of “approaches” (believing I was ‘gaming’ the women) and had had dozens of one-night-stands (gotten while trying out hundreds of game theories) and I did all of this BEFORE YOU EVEN KNEW such a thing as “game” exists.

      The fiercest anti-gamers are people who TRIED and DID it all, and that’s why we KNOW there is no such thing as game -its just placebo mindfuck marketing. We know coz we TRIED IT ALL, and then woke up to realize none of it matters. Really, it makes no difference. Some of us applied logic and backtracked the experience, some of us did experiments to falsify this shit, but all of us learned there is no such thing as “game”. Its just you mind-fucking yourself into believing you “control” attraction. Hint, you don’t – do a double-bind test controlling for variables, you’ll see you get the same amount of women – no seriously, nothing makes a difference, I wish it did! :D I wish there was a way to beat the numbers game, I’d pay a million dollars for this magic pill :D

      So out of all the mind-numbing stupid logic-defying shit you idiots believe, the most ironic is when you accuse us ex-gamers of being “afraid” to try game out :D

      Its ironic since THE PEOPLE WHO TRY IT OUT THE MOST and the deepest – are the ones to learn the HARDEST how much of a scam it is.

      And the ones who are AFRAID to ACTUALLY FULLY try it out are the ones who believe it the hardest (since they don’t actually ever falsify it hard enough through experience). Its no coincidence that the virgin gamers are the most hardcore believers in game (and often projecting a “you fear leaving the house and trying it” projection onto ex-gamers).

      • Malestrom

        I was in the middle of composing a scathing retort to that utter, utter cretin, then I saw the first paragraph of yours and realized it was not needed.

      • Sheldon Walker

        http://www.draguerunefille.net/blog/interview/interview-with-aaron-sleazy/

        I lost my virginity at 14 this dude lost his at 29 don’t hold it against me if I trust my judgment over his.

        He is entitled to his opinion however don’t be upset when everyone doesn’t adopt your particular world view.

        I think most of what he is saying is accurate but the delivery is lost because it seems like an angry screed rather than a rational analysis.

        Like I said live and let live there is more than one way to achieve a goal find what works for you.

        • alek

          HAHAHAH, omg you gamers are so funny.

          - If a game-critic started getting laid too early in life, you say he has no right to criticize game because he is a “natural”, he didn’t have to “learn it” – therefore he has no right to criticize game.

          - If a game critic had to learn all this getting laid stuff, spent years getting great it, now you guys say he’s not to be trusted because he started late :D

          I’m sorry, that’s a petty-bullshit argument – argue the arguments, not the person. There is no right age to start in order to have one’s arguments heard, only results/years-spent doing it and how deep one went to it. Jalon has had more sexual escapades and tried more things than 50 average men put together.

          That he started out later and then sprinted ahead to this 50x results end-line is a bonus, not a detraction. Point is he’ has more experience, has done it deeper than most of gamers.

          I think most of what he is saying is accurate but the delivery is lost because it seems like an angry screed rather than a rational analysis.

          yes, he is angry at a cult that is trying to scam men into membership, you’ll fucking excuse us we’re pissed off at a cult which functions through scam and deceit. We should be all giddy about it.

          Like I said live and let live there is more than one way to achieve a goal find what works for you.

          That is true.

          There are at least 500 non-misandric ways of achieving the goal of sex/relationship, whatever your goal is.

          However, our difference with gamers is not one of “method” its of core goal/root philosophy. We aren’t saying “game is the wrong way to do it”.

          We are saying its a misandric, female-privilege-promoting scam set out to scam gullible naive men into membership by promising them pussy (on which it delivers no better than placebo – and they have never proven to deliver better than placebo).

          Its kind of like scientology to me. I’d say scientology is the best analogue.

    • http://gynocentrism.com/2013/07/14/about/ Peter Wright (Tawil)

      @LostSailor: “Feel free to go your own way. But when you do it with “anti-game” rants like this, you reveal a level of butthurt that comes off as pathetic whining.”

      You sound more butthurt here than the author, who doesn’t sound butthurt at all. Just saying. ;-)

  • http://www.veteransoutreach.info Grunt

    Any woman you need to “game” is a woman not worth having.

    • Morgan

      Let’s turn this around: any man you have to stay pretty for isn’t a man worth having.

      Game is about tailoring your approach as a man, to women’s unique attraction triggers. Would it be better to meet someone whose soul is so intrinsically beautiful that they could lose half their face and you’d still want to make passionate love to them? Abso-freaking-lutely, but 5 bucks says you’re not gonna hold out for that any more than I am. Sexual attraction is a core part of a sexual relationship (as opposed to a friendship), and for most of us that means doing ‘superficial’ things to make ourselves more attractive. Men are visual, so the smart girlfriend stays in shape. Women are emotional, so the smart man uses game to excite her.

      • alek

        Let’s turn this around: any man you have to stay pretty for isn’t a’t a man worth having.

        Actually, the analogue to

        “Bah, men should love me for my fat ugly self”
        IS actually…
        “Bah, women should love me for my poor, unemployed, no talent, no skill, physically frail and no-ambitions self

        You claiming

        That: “Women should love me without game”
        is analogue to “I shouldn’t be pretty”
        is a FALSE argument!

        This is because it PRESUMES that game marketer claims are true – something I contest. It is MARKETERS (who are now millioners) who made up that whole bullshit about their product being a secret magical pill equivalent to female beauty and makeup for women.

        Let’s turn this around: any man you have to stay pretty for isn’t a’t a man worth having.

        There’s just ONE problem with your analogy, its not an actual analogue :D To accept your analogy one has to BELIEVE that

        a) there is such a thing as “game”
        and that
        b) its the equivalent to prettiness/makeup in women

        THE ACTUAL analogue to prettiness for men is:

        (in no particular order)
        - LOOKS (in differing degrees based on long-term or short-term context)
        - Physical Strength
        - Ambition
        - Money
        - Status

        (REAL ACTUAL status and ambition, like ACTUALLY HAVING IT, through achieving proficiency, fame or recognition in an area or something that can be ascertained over time)

        [for the record, I say *real* status, because game marketers say you can have status by just "acting as if", which has never been proven to work more than simply tricking women into giving you false positives]

        Game is about tailoring your approach as a man, to women’s unique attraction triggers.

        Except “triggering her attraction triggers” is something fat middle-aged semi-celibate marketers invented to cash in on idiocy.

        http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2013/11/three-billion-women-and-what-this-means.html?showComment=1384504027359#c3284812091983820429

      • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

        If by “stay pretty,” you mean, “be something you are not, in order to continuously manipulate his most basic instincts,” then you’re right – he isn’t worth having. Like women, plenty of men aren’t worth having. All the game in the world won’t change that.

      • http://www.veteransoutreach.info Grunt

        I have grown weary of trying to educate men regarding the inherent dysfunction that pervades American culture, and specifically American women. That said, let me clarify that how American women behave is not indicative of how women in South America or Eastern Europe will behave. Some will be able to understand this simple statement. Most will not. Again, if you have to “game” a woman, you have already lost.

  • Morgan

    On the wife-gaming aspect of your post, I think you need to differentiate between the right and wrong way to do so. Obviously a guy isn’t going to be able to keep himself safe around a chick who’s been riding the carousel, guzzling the feminist koolaid since childhood, and is well into the second half of her AFBB life plan. No amount of game is going to wrangle that archetype into a wife.

    BUT, selecting a good wife from the start, you can keep the marriage sexually (and thus many other ways) healthy by understanding and applying the principles of game. Don’t believe me? Go check out the Married Man Sex Life blog by Athol Kay. His forums are filled with people who are applying his (totally game) advice to great effect.

    So my point is, your post may be presented as a statement of the limits of game, but you can’t legitimately describe the limit of a thing without also describing the extent of it. If you try, it just ends up as a hit piece which won’t be taken seriously. The contempt oozing from it doesn’t help either.

  • Mika

    “Then, there is this trend that people write about how they “game their wife,” so that she has sex with them. Here’s a big question for that kind of “gamer”: How did you end marrying a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with you? ”
    ””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
    Geez buddy have you ever been married for any decent length of time? Please talk frankly to a dozen guys that have been married for 15 years or so and you will get a better appreciation of how many (not all) married women operate, especially once they have the children they want.

    If married men want to game their wives and that get results, such as an improved relationship, then there is nothing wrong with that. It is their wife for christ’s sake not some floosy they picked up at a bar.
    I have no idea how they would work this but if they succeed then good for them.

  • http://bcdad.blog.com Kalan Chinuck

    I would argue that Game is a rational choice for young men who have yet to experience the downside of relationships with women, and who are typically preoccupied with the pursuit of pleasure, including especially pussy.

    We all wear a somewhat synthetic ‘outer self’ when dealing with others, so Game of a sort is an essential part of the human condition.

    I would also argue that harsh criticism doesn’t create new allies but rather new adversaries. Point out the flaws by all means, but it helps no one to use emotionally subjective words like ‘fucked up’ and ‘absurd’ when it’s clear that many of these men will eventually be faced with reality and start looking for an alternative personal development path.

    Shooting fish in a barrel can be fun, but only if you don’t give a damn about the fish.

    • alek

      The only issue with your comment is it assumes a) there is such a thing as game b) that its not a scam

      I would argue that Game is a rational choice for young men who have yet to experience the downside of relationships with women, and who are typically preoccupied with the pursuit of pleasure, including especially pussy.

      Let me demonstrate your absurdity: “I would argue that Scientology is a rational choice for young people who have yet to experience the downside of personal development, and who are typically preoccupied with the pursuit of success, including especially money.”

      You simply claim people should join a certain cult, without tackling the core issue – its a fucking scam cult made up of mostly misandric, pussy-begging nutjobs.

      We all wear a somewhat synthetic ‘outer self’ when dealing with others, so Game of a sort is an essential part of the human condition.

      Your argument would make perfect sense and be perfectly reasonable if game wasn’t a scam (i.e. it produced better-than-placebo results).

      I would also argue that harsh criticism doesn’t create new allies but rather new adversaries.

      Cry me a river will you.

      White Nationalists
      Racists
      Gamers
      Conspiracy Theorists
      HomoPhobes
      Anti-Semites
      (I could go on)

      Are all groups of nutcases who both attack the MRA for differing nutty reasons, and are always trying to co-opt our members into their own nutty cults.

      Shooting fish in a barrel can be fun, but only if you don’t give a damn about the fish.

      Yes, some of us don’t give a damn about anti-semites, racists, gamers, conspiracy theorists and other assorted nutjob “fish”.

    • zuismanm

      Kallan.
      Very clever and well argumented post. It is only – that we seems to speak here with bunch hysteric loosers, that turned to approach – “If you can not beat your enemies – beat your aliases. May be enemies will see and begin to afraid of you…”

  • http://bcdad.blog.com Kalan Chinuck

    ” its a fucking scam cult made up of mostly misandric, pussy-begging nutjobs.”

    All of that may be true, or not – can you back up this statement with reasonably reliable data?

    I don’t support the Game approach either, but can understand its appeal, especially to young men. As well, I suspect young men with Game and no red pill have a slightly better chance than young men with no Game and no red pill. Game can be a ‘gateway’ to the red pill.

    Most importantly, in the absence of malevolent intent on the part of most of these men, why slag them and alienate them further? They sure as hell don’t need any more social ostracization. Enlighten them, yes. Trash them, no. Build connections, not fences.

    Men need to care about men. Let’s start now.

    • alek

      All of that may be true, or not – can you back up this statement with reasonably reliable data?

      Yes and I did it for years on several websites, I’m tired of doing it again for each new victim. You can find several years of debunking on.

      http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.se/
      http://www.aaronsleazy.com/forum/

      If there’s one thing I regret its the 10,000 hours I spend re-debunking this game crap in detail for each new wave of victims. I could have built another business or mastered a hobby with the same effort.

    • alek

      Most importantly, in the absence of malevolent intent on the part of most of these men, why slag them and alienate them further?

      Because they DO have malevolent intent. Again, you’re like the newbie coming in and going “you know, you should try being nice and polite to feminists, that might work” but you don’t know that MRAs have tried that path for decades.

      Its the same with gamers, you’re only witnessing the aftermath of trying to be nice to those idiots for years and it leading nowhere. It doesn’t matter how nice you are to them, they just come in like a bull in achina shop, shame, bellitle and try to recruit members for their cult.

      THEY CAN NOT HEAR – so its not worth trying to tell them. Again we have YEARS of experience. Trying to reason with gamers is like trying to reason with feminists, it doesn’t work – and again, you’re assuming it should work, without having our massive experience.

      The irony is that THE MOMENT they become ready to hear anything outside of blue-pill-game dogma, they no longer call themselves gamers. Make sense?

      Are there 0.001% of people who carry the label feminist/gamer whom you can reason with? Yes. Is it worth wasting time knowing that 99.999% have it enter in one ear and exit the other? Fuck No.

  • Omega Man

    Women who get married to a beta, i.e. a guy who supplicates, shows weakness, and bends to her every whim will end up hating the poor schmuck. Women depise weakness and weakness in a man will arouse a revulsion that not even the most saddistic rapist could inspire.

    I suspect but cannot prove that the reason for the majority of divorces is when the wife looses respect for a husband. Game will help you maintain your edge.

    Students of “Game” know this and use it to keep their relationships on an even keel. Mind you, you also need a good woman as well to make it work.

    Aside from the charlatans and hucksters of which there are many, “Game” does work. However, simply reading a book or going to some seminar or paying some “dating experts” thousands of dollars will not do the trick. If you then try out your new tricks, you’ll end up looking like an idiot or a fool or even a creep.

    Those of us who know Game have learned it the hard way. It is not the idiotic repetition of some canned cheesy lines that will result in some 10 rated hottie jumping into the sack with you. The theory of Game involves self improvement, both intellectual and physical. It is also about becoming more fashion conscious, and learning the signals women throw off as to when you can approach and when you can’t. All of this takes time, often a long time. Give yourself about 2 years to get ripped, develop a fashion sense and the intellectual ability to keep a woman interested.

    You will also fail a lot, but as you improve yourself you will begin to attract more women and then you’ll be able to have your pick of who you want in a relationship and who to ditch.

    Essentially, GAME is a tool, and like all tools the end result depends on how it is utilized. I’ve been married for more than 30 years and yes I do need to Game my wife, even now. It is not manipulation but a way of interacting with your spouse so that both of you are satisfied and happy.

    • alek

      Enough with the spam, we’re not buying your pheromones product. Quit the spam.

      And no, we’re not interested in penis enlargement pills either. Quit it.

      And no, we don’t care how a magical love-potion recipe book saved your marriage and the magical exotic secret tea at 19.99$ a week saved your marriage.

    • alek

      The theory of Game involves self improvement, both intellectual and physical. It is also about becoming more fashion conscious, and learning the signals women throw off as to when you can approach and when you can’t. All of this takes time, often a long time. Give yourself about 2 years to get ripped, develop a fashion sense and the intellectual ability to keep a woman interested.

      THIS IS NOT GAME.

      A discipline is DEFINED by how it DIFFERS from other disciplines. I am getting fucking sick and tired of you marketers saying that game marketers invented hygiene or bodybuilding. Quit the bullshit. All anti-gamers and non-gamers recommend reading cues, joining a gym and hygiene – knowing that helps get laid more is NOT a feature of game, it’s a feature of anyone who’s half sane (in fact its the opposite, you’re more likely to find gamers who say looks/physique are irrelevant than general population people)

      A discipline is DEFINED BY HOW IT IS DIFFERENT FROM OTHER DISCIPLINES. WHEN WE ATTACK “feminism” WE ATTACK THE TRAITS THAT ARE UNIQUE TO FEMINISM, NOT THINGS IT SHARES WITH NON-FEMINISM”

      ITS AN OLD TRICK, WE ARE NOT BUYING IT

      MRA: I dislike what feminism stands for
      Feminist: Oh, so you’re against treating women as human beings, and not chattel. You know, feminism is about women being seen as human beings and having voting rights

      BULLSHIT: Almost all anti-feminists are in favor of voting-rights for women, its not what defines feminism.

      MRA: I dislike what game stands for
      Feminist: Oh, but game is about going to the gym and getting better fashion sense

      ITS A FUCKING CHILDISH FORM OF MANIPULATION. STOP IT. YOU KNOW FULL FUCKING WELL that when we’re criticizing game we are not criticizing going to the gym or improving your fashion sense so STOP THE CHILDISH attempts at manipulation.

      FEMINISM IS DEFINED BY THE TRAITS/VALUES/BELIEFS THAT ARE UNIQUE TO IT
      GAME IS DEFINED BY THE TRAITS/VALUES/BELIEFS THAT ARE UNIQUE TO IT

      • Omega Man

        There are more than enough FREE resources on the Internet to learn Game without ever having to pay a single dime to the hucksters. Unfortunately there are too many men who are desperate for female attention for this to go away any time soon.

        When I saw a $10,000 price tag for a series of sessions with a “dating expert” I just about croaked. There is no need for anybody to pay that kind of money in order to learn Game, in fact you don’t have to pay a dime.

        My personal view is that you don’t understand what Game is nor do you see the complete picture. You do not present a coherent argument and you resort to slander and name calling. Please present some legitimate criticism.

        To repeat myself, the Art of Game is self improvement and that includes anything and everything from hitting the gym, to reading for intellectual curiosity so as to become a more interesting and well rounded person, to getting a sense of how to dress well (yes fashion sense) and in general learn becoming a more sociable person. That is how to become more attractive yourself

        As well women do not think the way men do and Game teaches you how women think, feel and react, what they’re attracted to and what repels them. Most men don’t have a clue and so you’re really doing a great disservice to men in general by dissing the legitimate aspects of Game.

        As I said before, learning Game is FREE on the internet. There is no need to pay anybody anything.

        • alek

          There are more than enough FREE resources on the Internet to learn Game without ever having to pay a single dime

          All it if is just a “freeline” designed to act as cliff-hanger towards the commercial stuff. 90% of “free” game stuff out there is just fear-based cliff-hangers that has affiliate links toward game products or people hoping to build up an audience to sell an ebook to gullible idiots down the line.

          The other 10% is just virgins recycling stuff that the marketers invented for commercial reasons.

          http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com/the-syndicate-the-internet-marketing-scam-organization-behind-game/

          http://www.goodlookingloser.com/2012/09/14/mr-internet-expert/

          To repeat myself, the Art of Game is self improvement and that includes anything and everything from hitting the gym, to reading for intellectual curiosity so as to become a more interesting and well rounded person, to getting a sense of how to dress well (yes fashion sense) and in general learn becoming a more sociable person. That is how to become more attractive yourself

          DO YOU HAVE READING PROBLEMS?!?!

          WHAT PART OF MY COMMENT DID YOU MISS?

          A DISCIPLINE IS DEFINED BY WHAT IS UNIQUE TO IT AND ONLY IT

          You can not define game through the FEW sane shit some of its adherents occasionally say SINCE (newsflash bozo) WE anti-gamers ALSO suggest hitting the gym and updating your fashion sense you gullible parrot bot, quit the spamming advertising. You’re literally repeating-word-for-word lines that a **copywriter** came up with.

          As well women do not think the way men do and Game teaches you how women think, feel and react, what they’re attracted to and what repels them. Most men don’t have a clue and so you’re really doing a great disservice to men in general by dissing the legitimate aspects of Game.

          AU CONTRAIRE I GET HUNDREDS OF THANK YOU LETTERS from ex-gamers for helping them escape the cult and moving on with their lives. I believe I am doing them a service by CHALLENGING THEM to CHALLENGE this cult.

          As well women do not think the way men do and Game teaches you how women think, feel and react,

          In other words overanalyzing pussy-begging bullshit.

          what they’re attracted to and what repels them.

          Newsflash gullible friend of mine, women are individuals, no two women are attracted to the same thing. There is no monolith called “women” nor a fucking magic formula on “triggering her cavewoman attraction switches” grow up.

          And the few things which GENERALLY make a male more attractive IN GENERAL are things which people ALREADY know from common sense (physique, status, ambition, confidence) etc.

          NONE OF THAT WAS FUCKING INVENTED BY GAME – in fact its COMMON SENSE (hint, most sane people know status makes you more attractive to women, you need a game blog to tell you that!?!?!?)

          Let’s get serious for a second and GET HONEST

          THE THING THAT ******DEFINES***** game is the CRAZY NUTTY claims that gamers have where they DIFFER FROM COMMON SENSE

          Stuff like claiming there is a secret magical way of talking, walking or behaving that “triggers attraction switches” in her “inner cavewoman” and other assorted bullshit.

          Most game theories are based on the cargo-cult pseudo-scientific misinterpretation that you can “get status” by simply displaying the markers of status.

          (game marketer: you can be a complete loser, but if just learn how to retort like a statusey alpha it’ll make otherwise uninterested women all hot for you!)

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult
          http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2013/11/three-billion-women-and-what-this-means.html?showComment=1384504027359#c3284812091983820429

          Most men don’t have a clue

          You do realize you are PARROTING A LINE THAT WAS INVENTED BY A MARKETER!?!?!? Its called FEAR-MONGER-MARKETING. It was invented by fucking deangelo who made millions off of gullible losers.

          See this satiric piece where someone displays how your fear-based game-marketing would look if it was applied to women, go, have a chuckle

          http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-if-pua-methods-were-taught-to.html

          Seriously, how gullible can you get?

          There is no motherfucking magic pill, get money, get status (real ones, not through faking it with fucking cargo cult game tricks which don’t even work), build some muscle and go hit on some chicks, anything beyond that is a scam.

          by dissing the legitimate aspects of Game.

          There are none, since anything legit ever said by any gamer is either common-sense (i.e. not part of game) or can be gotten from MRAs. Thank you very much.

          Next spammy advert from you gets deleted, pronto.

          You do not present a coherent argument and you resort to slander and name calling. Please present some legitimate criticism.

          http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2013/11/three-billion-women-and-what-this-means.html?showComment=1384504027359#c3284812091983820429

          Here you go – one of the thousands I’ve contributed over the years in either comment form or article form.

          Moderation Warning

          - You’re free to continue defending your cult over at Aaron’s blog (which has analyzed and debunked game for years) and you can get into fights in his forum and blog (dedicated to debunking game)

          - If you post one more advert ON -A.V.F.M for your snakeoil pheromone crap, it will be deleted on sight, comprende?

          Feel Free To Move Debate (spammy advertising) Here:
          http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.se/
          http://www.aaronsleazy.com/forum/

  • http://bcdad.blog.com Kalan Chinuck

    Group demonization, name calling, and threats of censorship. Hmmm, where have I seen that before?

    • alek

      Group demonization, name calling, and threats of censorship. Hmmm, where have I seen that before?

      From your grandmaster game gurus perhaps who demonize anyone who disagrees with them and regularily bash and mock MRAs and MGTOWs perhaps?

      Try posting an opposing view on Roosh/Roissy or any game-guru’s blog or challenging the existence of “game”, see how long it goes allowed for, and see how long it takes before the mob turns on you and starts calling you names, calling you a “basement dwelling dweeb beta loser”

    • alek

      and threats of censorship

      Bullshit —> I gave you a link where you can debate and advertise your cult to your heart’s content. I am not threatening censorship, I am asking you to move the debate to where it would be a fair-debate (a section dedicated to the topic)…

      AVfM is an MRA site and there’s a certain level past which the debate goes way off-topic for this site – you’re free to debate on the site I linked you to.

      It would be censorship if you aren’t given a venue to defend your views and continue

      I am giving you the venue to continue the discussion, I will gladly debate you in the area where its ON-TOPIC and ****the link to the area will stay up forever**** —-> people can follow the link and make up their mind.

      All on-topic and shame-free comments are fine

      The topic is the article above. Going 5 levels deeper than that and going into debating the fine details of how much of which type of game is or isn’t a scam is OFF-topic.

      I am not disallowing you from defending your cult and advertising it as a magical pheromone love-potion-like panacea, I am just asking you to move the discussion where its on-topic. Roissy would delete anyone challenging him and would not provide an alternate area to continue the debate in.

      Think of it as asking you to continue off-topic posts in the appropriate category of a forum

  • Astrokid

    Jalon,
    I am not PUA.. I have no interest in it at my age.. but I occasionally read some Manosphere blogs such as Rollo Tomassi, ReturnOfKings. Like some others have pointed out, there’s a ‘PUA Game’ and ‘Game Theory’.. the latter being an exploration on the psyche of women (mostly) and thats of interest to me, and I do find some of their findings revealing and explanatory. Whenever I see a blogpost related to PUA Game there, I just skip it.
    Now, with that as the background..

    This article would have been much better if you had provided some links to buttress your arguments.
    As well as block quotes if necessary.
    Coz how else will I be able to verify your claims? I dont really want to browse through your blog, navigate and locate blogposts of relevance to your claims here. That would take a hell of a lot of time.
    Just based on what I know of ROK/Rollo Tomassi, I see some issues here that could have been cleared if you had provided the references. for e.g

    Then, there is this trend that people write about how they “game their wife,” so that she has sex with them. Here’s a big question for that kind of “gamer”: How did you end marrying a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with you?

    From what I can tell, the bloggers mostly support marriage-strike. During the recent ‘Mark Minter’ affair (A Manosphere’an commenter who penned very entertaining anti-marriage comments, only to get hitched to a manospherean commenter soon), many of them were shocked that one of them was getting married, esp one who knew the issues in depth.
    Thus, perhaps “game ones wife” is the last resort of people WHO ARE ALREADY married? i.e they didnt take the Red Pill before getting married.

    You paint a picture of guys who are unaware of the risks they are taking, whereas the blogposts I see on ROK, Rational Male are very illustrative of their knowledge of the risk.. why else are they Anti-marriage, for e.g?
    And if they are unaware of the risks, surely many of them would have gotten screwed in False Rape accusations etc, and there may be some documented confessions of failure.

    It would be great if you could provide references going forward. Its only fair if we explore 1 or 2 aspects in depth and see the evidence and make up our minds.

    • alek

      Like some others have pointed out, there’s a ‘PUA Game’ and ‘Game Theory’..

      Game theory precedes PUA by 10 years. (I have been around since before PUA brand was invented) – PUA is merely the best known branch of game-theory.

      We often most criticize PUAs merely since they’re the best known practitioners of game theory, however our critique is based on game-theory itself. It is the cornerstone of game itself we criticize as being misandric and pussy-begging. Do you understand?

      Pay Attention: Its not about the specific details!
      We often give examples of individuals idiotic things produced by game theory or patriarchy theory, and you feminists/gamers use the ****not all gamers are like that**** / **not all feminists are like that** defense –> missing the point altogether!

      HOW DO WE CRITICIZE FEMINISM? THINK ABOUT IT?

      -> When we criticize feminism, we criticize patriarchy theory, and then give individual examples of individual stupid, idiotic beliefs, values that were SPAWNED from this theory by different feminists- For example we post an article showing feminists who hold value x

      -> A feminist can come in and say “but not all feminists are like that, I know plenty of feminists who don’t believe in x, there’s a lot of branches of feminism, therefore you can’t criticize feminism, you clearly don’t know anything about feminism”

      The point is It doesn’t matter —-> The CORE of all branches of feminism/game is THE SAME and it is the CORE that we attack, the CORE belief. You can shoot down individual examples, but they’re NOT the point. We are ONLY showing the examples to make a point of what the CORE can produce in terms of toxic bullshit. Pointing out that not all gamers believe that ONE specific example/detail is NOT the point! No more than it is a defense of feminism.

      Is this too hard for you to understand about feminism/game and the “not all are like that” defense!?!?

      THE CORE of feminism is patriarchy theory, the notion that a) men as a group benefit over women as a group and systematically oppress them as a group and b) its ok that individual men suffer since men as a group are privileged.

      THE CORE of game is the notion that a) you have to “earn” and “create” attraction through certain ways of acting and behaving and are by DEFAULT undeserving of pussy (until you say or do the right thing) and that b) your worth as a human being is based on this ability to “generate pussy attraction”.

      -> IT DOESNT MATTER that different schools define the DETAILS and specifics of a and b differently, since its NOT about the details, its about a and b!!!! Do you understand!?!?!

      [P.S - All MRAs and MGTOWs reject b, whereas anti-gamers like myself and jalon specialize in pointing out that a is a damaging scam as well]

      Continue debate here:
      http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.se/
      http://www.aaronsleazy.com/forum/

  • johnnyutah

    “Game” is not a side “side-show” issue. It is a THE issue at the moment because it is the most destructive concept in the manosphere.

    Because:-

    1) People still seem to draw a distinction between Game and Feminism. GAME IS FEMINISM. Game is Feminism by proxy. Feminism encourages male sacrifice and Vagina worship, “Game” advocates the exact same behaviour as Feminism does.

    2) The practice of “Game”, reinforces the misandric culture which is evident in Western society. i.e. That men must SACRIFICE and EARN the right to be with a women, any women, even if that women is a drug addicted abusive violent individual.

    3) After being exposed for the malevolent multi-level marketing shyster-scum that they are, game promoters have decided to take a new tact and move to “lifestyle blogs”. The aim here is to recruit impressionable men to their cause (cult) by promoting “Game” in addition to other polite society sanctioned “manly” vectors such as drinking, sports, and working out

    4) Game hacks, promoters repeatedly try to co-opt any effort men engage in to organise for purposes other than seeking out women. Despite being COMPLETELY DISCREDITED they return, over and over again. Should we tolerate people who tell us the Earth is flat? What is wrong with calling these people morons? The problem with people who promote Game is not simply that they a have been led astray, the problem is that their beliefs AS WELL AS BEING COMPLETELY DISCREDITED actually PROMOTE THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what MRA’s are trying to achieve.

    • zuismanm

      Ok. Now I understand… You finally got it… Main enemy of MHRA (or at least – of AVFM) is GAME community… I see…
      At moment – we will crush those evil gamers – all problems of men and boys will disappear…. Finally – it appeared to be much more simple then we thought at beginning…
      I see…