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Pick-Up Artist, or Be Yourself? Be Yourself.

OGFurious, after reading multiple books on Pick-Up Artistry and tried some of the techniques. And in the end, while some of it works, he sees a problem:

We think he’s got a point. Do you?

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AVfM Video Source is a group dedicated to finding and presenting to you the best videos from the internet that help illustrate the growing and evolving Men's Human Rights Movement, or that indicate society's changing attitudes toward the sexes. AVfM does not necessarily agree with or endorse everything in every video.

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  • uranioradioattivo

    definitely

  • MrSonicAdvance

    Sounds about right to me.

  • ManWithPlan

    Yes. But if attractive behavior doesn’t come naturally, you have to go through the motions first.

  • Jeremy

    No, he doesn’t have a point. I’m curious what books he read, and how much he approached. He seems to indicate that he hasn’t become a “master” meaning he hasn’t fully put himself in that lifestyle. That’s at least indicative that he hasn’t given himself the time to adapt to the result of projecting what confidence he has onto the social situations he is in, and gaining more confidence from those interactions.

    He also starts off by saying that he’s read “all the books”, but there’s no information as to which ones. He then says that “there are a lot of misconceptions” out there about how there are “magic” words or actions that get women to follow you. It sounds to me like he was reading the wrong books if he ever thought such things, or felt there were such a misconception.

    There’s a basic truth he doesn’t address. Where does confidence come from? If you are insecure, if you have no confidence in yourself, where does confidence come from? How do you acquire it? Are you born with it? Does it come from specific experiences? Does it come from growing up/old? The answer is very simple. Confidence is a result of repeated success experienced after sufficient educational failure. The boy who by chance answers what 2+2 is in 1st grade the first time he is asked has nothing on the confidence that the boy who got it wrong several times before working on it, and watching his experiences with math turn positive as a result of his efforts. He wasn’t born with that confidence, it came from experience. That’s where confidence comes from. Insecurity is in many ways the lack of confidence in your ability to do something. If you are insecure about meeting women, it is because you have not spent the time, you have not acquired enough failure approaching women to realize what the worst case situation can be for you.

    When the guy in the video says that PUA techniques “hurt” people who are insecure, he’s wrong because he’s applying the wrong tool to the problem. Approaching many women, experiencing many varied social situations and getting comfortable dealing with them is the only way to gain confidence, and for many guys, “learning game” is the method of doing this.

    Too many MRA’s look at PUA’s with unqualified disdain, rather than simply recognizing that it doesn’t matter if you’re wearing funny hats, or reciting stupid pick-up-lines, or being the most cliche ladies man in the world. What matters is spending the time to learn how to interact with women in a social situation with sexual tension. That is where your confidence will come from, and your insecurities will fade.

    His piece of advice at the end is self-pleasuring nonsense. “Be someone you respect”?? What does that even mean?

    • pinetree

      Most men are insecure. The is bc masculinity has been on the attack. The social environment for men is perverted –caused primarily by feminism, and the hostile education and corporate environment. Growing up in this environment — it really is not possible to be your natural self or to be confident. Women also know PUA techniques often more than puas do. They are usually one step ahead of the game — and they have the full support of rape culture to back them up. Most women in the dating game in western culture are often mentally psychotic with a heavy feminist victim mindset– using pua techniques with such women is often failure from the beginning. There are some basic good pua points –like dress well, etc — but that is common knowledge. In the perverted environment we are in, one needs to understand and appreciate their masculinity first through knowledge and interacting with other real men. PUA will do little if one cannot learn to respect one’s masculine self.

    • Greboada

      >> “His piece of advice at the end is self-pleasuring nonsense. “Be someone you respect”?? What does that even mean?”

      It means exactly what it says: if you look at yourself in the mirror and you don’t respect the person you see in there, then change it. Because this person is you. Have some values. Have some standards, and then behave according to those standards. Some people will like it, some people won’t. What matters is that you like it. What matters is that you’re doing the right thing, and you know it, and because of that, you respect yourself.

      Of course, that won’t teach you the basic of flirting or how to handle sexual tension. And probably because of that, you will waste some chances. Fine, that’s life. But if you become a person that respect himself, many people around will do the same. Including women. And you’ll sleep in more than one bed.

      At the end of the day, it’s a matter of choices. Surely you’ll maximize your bang ratio with PUA techniques. Is this all it is about? That’s what you should ask yourself.

  • CanuckDuck

    The philosophy behind “Game” if you will, is one of self-improvement. Dress better, become physically fit, and learn about the psychology of women so that you start having some successes.

    In the end, “Game” is just a tool. Use to find a wife, or use it to get a One Night Stand. Your choice. In and of itself the tools of the PUA are just that, that is they are tools by which you can understand the nature of women.

    Just as you won’t win a Grand Prix after just having newly received your Beginning Drivers License, so you won’t consistently have success with women after having just read one or two books.

    The approach should be:

    1. Get physically fit
    2. Dress sharply
    3. Read and apply the lessons of the PUA

    It will take a year or more to get to the point where you can consistent attract women. It’s hard work but it sure beats being celibate.

    • pinetree

      btw, dress sharply I have found can be more problamatic –yes especially for women. They look and see right through sharply dressed men — with suspicion. What is likely more helpful is dress neatly that shows pride –never over do it –never dress sharply unless you are giving some work presentation to some audience. PUAs seem to use dress sharply like a mantra. In fact it seems to do more harm imho.

      • CanuckDuck

        Good Point.

    • PaulMurrayCbr

      It’s like that SNL skit:
      * be good-looking
      * be attractive
      * don’t be unattractive

    • Nephandus

      Yeah, and how many players got anything but a bitch for a wife with their game? The only supposed “master” I ever head of getting married denounced game as destroying his capacity for intimacy and warned off anyone that wanted a real relationship. Strauss’s bizarrely acclaimed book primarily explained that, though PUA junkies seem to have very selective reading comprehension there.

      Besides, unless you mean pop garbage, most women neither read nor care for nerds (actual, not “geek chic” hipsters) that actually do. They don’t like actual intellectual discussion either and will get bored and annoyed with the real thing, probably mocking you as nerd, geek, autistic, loser, etc. Likewise, I assume “fit” means fitness model not training for any actual ability, which doesn’t look like magazine covers and will get you called meathead and even creepy, and “sharply” means playing dress up as a living Ken doll, to her taste and whim obviously, not your’s.

      Self-improvement is rarely attractive to women. Sleaze and sycophancy is. Never met a single popular person IRL that wasn’t slime or leaking resources. Wealth is the only “improvement” that draws women consistantly, and those are whores.

  • MisterAbsurd

    I am a perfectly confident self-respecting guy, but that by no means makes me a ladies man. I can put on an aggressive persona bordering on arrogance, and my sex appeal appears to go up ten fold. That’s PUA, and I find it to be a pursuit not worth the effort. I have just come to accept that if the price for being who I want to be is less sex, so be it.

  • jbantifem

    I don’t even bother with females anymore. And if they don’t like me, too damn bad. I’m out to impress no one and have always been that way. The whole PUA thing is ridiculous to me.

  • Fatherless

    I’m still convinced that PUA’s are best at seducing men.

    • Vương Vi-Nhuyễn – 王微軟

      Though I find it funny, being ”a fake person” in a relationship is way worse for many men than women, I’ve seen men grow insecure over their relationship because the (wo)men they’re with turned out to be completely different, while a woman has little to no problem with (wo)men openly lying in their yøngs.

      • Nephandus

        Most women that ever even thought I was coming on to them that didn’t blow me off “corrected” my expression under the blatant if not explicit pretense that I was supposed to be faking the whole interaction to please them. It’s ended plenty of supposedly intellectual conversations. They want lies. They don’t really want you. You’re not worthy.

  • CanuckDuck

    Gentlemen,

    The advocates of “Game” or the PUA community are NOT the enemies of the MRA movement. We use different tools and approaches to be sure, but we are NOT the enemy. Please understand this and stop these mindless attacks.

    As a former Omega, I had a long way to go and I know that for me GAME and the philosophy of self improvement worked. It’s not easy. In fact it was hard and at times very hard. But if I can do it then anyone can do it. Just don’t expect instant gratification.

    • Paul Johnson

      I never thought of PUAs as enemies of the MRM. PUAs and MRAs just have different objectives. MRAs will suggest that PUA behavior can get you in trouble if you’re not careful, however.

      • Astrokid

        But why would PUAs not know that they will get in trouble if they are not careful?
        Does anyone believe that PUAs can be part of the Manosphere and not be aware of the dangers?

        • Paul Johnson

          I think it’s completely reasonable to be interested in PU and have no knowledge of the “manosphere” (I hate that term) outside of PU. And I haven’t seen the PU community directly address these dangers.

          Maybe they do — I don’t follow the pick-up community.

    • Dagda Mór

      You can self improve without needing to impress anyone. In fact that’s probably the best kind of self improvement, because there isn’t an object of your affections to be unimpressed. PUAs subordinate their sexuality to woman and help perpetuate the gynocentric culture which has put so many men under the lash, so yeah, they can get bent.

  • Billy Plante

    He really doesn’t give a good representation of the two main schools of PUA, Inner and Outer game. He was mainly focused on outer game, which indeed is more of a mask you wear. However the one really good aspect of it, is that it gives guys who have never ever been good with women, the skills and techniques to finally get some success, and to start really understanding what it’s all about.

    Anyone who has been in it for any length of time knows that Inner game is the only real answer to it all, and that Inner game is more about self improvement, overcoming that programming you went through as a kid that got in the way of you being that guy who is naturally good with women, and taking charge of your life.

    To say “just go do X” is incredibly disingenuous and gives absolutely no credit to the guys who spend years upon years busting through pre-programmed ideas and beliefs about yourself in order to become better at living life, part of that being women. I liken it to being religious and turning into an atheist, only you do it over and over and over again, being completely intellectually honest with yourself about your behaviours, facing your inner demons, and coming out the other end of that blast furnace a completely self made individual. You don’t “just” go do X. It is far more involved than that.

    • Paul Johnson

      I remember reading early in some PUA literature that when you’re trying techniques that aren’t “you,” per se, you don’t have congruence with your inner and outer game. After time and practice, when your outer game brings you success, your confidence rises and you begin to internalize elements of your outer game, and you approach congruence.

      • Billy Plante

        That was one aspect of it for sure. The idea of “fake it till you make it”. What people need to realize is that this whole PUA thing was developed by nerds in their mom’s basement FOR nerds in their mom’s basement. These are guys who were frustrated and fed up with how they were being treated by women, so they did something about it. So when guys make videos about how awful PUAs are, they are missing the fundamental core of PUA, which is average nice guys, learning techniques, in order to get some love, attention, and affection from women, which they otherwise wouldn’t get because of random and arbitrary events in their life which did not allow for them to develop their confidence and self esteem.

        So these guys would try these various techniques, which was basically a step by step method. How to talk, what to say, how to say it, how to position your body, how to deal with various reactions. And slowly but surely over time they get that confidence and self esteem and suddenly they are no longer having to fake anything, but can now draw from real world experience.

        I myself am absolutely indebted to a handful of these guys who opened up new ideas to me. I was raised very religious, and fed on a steady diet of knights, damsels, teenage romance movies and after school specials. If not for PUA culture, I never would have made my way here. It was in developing myself that I came to understand women, and am now MGTOW because of it, and I also took charge of my life. I changed careers, I am focused on what I want to achieve in life. I have a very solid 5, 10 and 15 year plan. Inner Game PUA is FAR more than just picking up women. That is just one aspect of it. It is a set of tools, that is it.

        • Dagda Mór

          If she’s not a fun, interesting playmate she doesn’t deserve the joys of your purple headed love bison. Your time would be better spent earning money to pay a prostitute if you’re working that hard just to get laid.

          • Billy Plante

            HAHAHAHAHAHA You win the comment of the decade! Purple headed love bison! hahahahahaha

            But you are correct. I now spend my time earning money. I help friends and family where and when I can. Rather than spend my money on useless bitches, I have instead taken that money, and invested it into 3 men so far, helping them on their journey into entering new careers. I told them that my price is for them to one day help other men that they know who could use a little help.

  • Mike Schonewolf

    Pick up is really introductory techniques for men to be more successful with women, the problem comes when men say “well I learned pick up and I don’t really need to improve myself”, but mastering game comes when you take the techniques,add your own flare to them, and improve and modify yourself. That means, getting healthier, learning a skill, learning not just pick up, but learning to read body language, and learn about sexuality, and applying the things you learn about evolutionary biology/psychology to improve your overall game.

  • Dan

    I agree with this guy 100%. When I was younger I tried some of those pickup techniques but most of the time they weren’t really that helpful, and sometimes they even backfired on me. Some PUAs will even claim that being yourself is the worst advice anyone could give you because being yourself will prevent you from getting laid. I gave up on PUAs years ago because most of their advice is crap. I learned to be comfortable with myself just for the sake of being comfortable with myself and focused on doing things things that made me happy. Funny thing is, I’ve been in a relationship for almost 2 years now and if I had tried any of the techniques that PUAs suggest with my girlfriend, she wouldn’t have been interested. She appreciates me for who I am. If I hadn’t learned to just be comfortable being myself, we probably wouldn’t be together at all.

    • Dagda Mór

      Indeed, it’s cargo cult behaviour.

  • Vương Vi-Nhuyễn – 王微軟

    I know that my personality doesn’t get much women, and the reason I’ve had more women than most men was knowing who to look for (we all know that sluts have lower market-value, but it’s all about the numbers for men when you play ”the game”), I’m a naturally clingy, hopeless romantic and sub-missive man and not many women like that, in fact from experience nearly 99.99% of the women I’ve met hate men that want to spend too much time with them, but I know that I’d never be happy pretending to be more emotionally distant, and that I could never be with a woman who’d reject me every time I want to hug her, or talk to her or needs her ”alone time” so I simply didn’t look for those women.

    Modern culture tries to teach everyone that ”being alone” and ”being happy with yourself” are somehow universal and magic things that everyone should do and know, humans aren’t designed to be independent, we’re herd animals like sheep, horses, bovine, buffalo, Etc. and I like being in a position where I can rotate dominance and submissiveness, an environment with clear roles, everyone always saying ”be yourself” is what can ruin relationships, over-lapping or contradicting roles can create chaos, though I am strictly against gender roles, I am for couples establishing roles that works best for them, leaving almost everything into gray areas is what’s ruining most modern relationships.

  • Correctrix

    He kind of has a point (and he’s also kind of hot), but he’s missing the “fake it till you make it” concept. By projecting confidence and thus achieving success, you gain actual confidence. I think a lot of people could gain from some lessons of PU. Now, sure, there are a lot of PUAs who are complete dicks. How could there not be? But there is nothing about PU that has to be inherently dickish or anti-egalitarian or misogynistic or gynocentric or self-defeating. It’s just a toolbox.

    My favourite is Vadim from Honest Signalz. He’s bloody hilarious, and a great example of how you can be attractively arrogant in an amusing way that allows both of you to have fun with it. My own persona is a much-toned-down version of that, and has known to be a hit with the ladies.

    • Nephandus

      Who respects themselves as a dildo kissing up to slag? Self-respect
      kills your chances with most women since you’ll refuse to be the tool
      they’re looking for. I can’t respect anyone that seriously acts like that, much less really thinks like that, and you can’t wash the sewage off when you’re wearing it much less turning into it. Shill your slavish garbage to the white knights.

  • John Narayan

    Well said.

  • iggy

    I’ve never been a PUA or at least never willfully practiced PU techniques or read a book on the subject. I simply learnt how to attract certain women from trial & error. I get how some people think PUA authors are about helping men… and I get how others think PUA authors are out to sell books and make money by teaching other men to exploit women (and themselves). Personally I think the description ‘pick-up’ is used too broadly (sorta like ‘rape’ is used to broadly) in both respects. I also believe that most men naturally get more confidence as they age and try new things, then ultimately realize life isn’t just about chasing women and having sex. I get how most of us come into sexual maturity pre-programmed to copulate as often as possible, and it takes a bit of time for us to develop the skills to manage that desire. I don’t know if I will teach my son ‘pick-up’, at least not in that term. I will talk with him about the long term picture and that his happiness is not hinged on how many women he attracts. I will teach him that women desire intimacy (and sex) as much as he does. I will teach him that confidence is ultimately accepting who you are and owning it. For my daughter, I will teach her that men are just as insecure as she it, that they desire intimacy like she does, and that confidence is ultimately accepting who you are and owning it. I don’t really know if PU is helpful or not, I am sure it goes both ways depending on what you focus on. I’d rather not focus on the label and let my kids find out what works for them, knowing the end-game is broader than just sex.

  • Ewan Jones

    I think there’s some decent information written in PUA guides but a lot of it is crap. I find a lot of the tactics suggested are nothing more than cheap sales tricks. Take Day Game for instance, this practice is pretty similar to cold calling. It’s all about trying to get a deal, trying to get one more sale before
    lunch. Focusing more generally on the PUA movement, it seems it’s all about men chasing women and battering down their defences until they can’t say no. In this situation the man is a helpless addict. The PUA movement promotes the idea that men should treat women the same way a drug addict treats crack cocaine. “I just need one more hit man.”

    Focusing on my life, as a child I suffered a lot of emotional and physical abuse at the hands of my Mother. Then as I grew up I was given the standard feminist indoctrination that everyone receives. I was told that men have oppressed women for thousands of years, that all men are rapists and
    chauvinistic pigs, and that men must deny their sexual urges and be incredibly sensitive to women’s feelings all the time, or else they are at risk of becoming a rapist or abuser of women. By listening to
    some of the MHRM bloggers on the internet I was able to break through this miseducation, and I came to realise that a combination of child abuse, and later being denied the psychological tools I needed to
    grow into a healthy man, had turned me into the nice guy I’d become.

    In addition to showing me the problem I was suffering from, the MHRM have also given me a solution to it. I need to become as important as every woman I interact with, in all of my interactions with women. I’ve found this one piece of advice more useful than 90% of the material I gleamed from the PUA community. And the other 10% of advice I got from the PUA community, the useful stuff, actually
    backed up this argument.