Patient on stretcher with paramedics emergency aid

But men and women are the same …

I’m gonna keep this short.

One of my neighbors is an older guy, a widower. He’s been in and out of the hospital for the better part of a decade. A couple of years ago, his wife died of lung cancer. He’s a good guy, keeps to himself, happy to chat in the driveway if both parties have the time; his son lives in a trailer across the park, divorced with shared custody.

Being an older guy, with aches and pains, it was only a matter of time, and I’ve been steeling myself for the news since he told me his wife had passed. Men typically don’t live much more than a few years after the death of their spouse, and his body was already giving up the ghost. Well, I don’t think the time has come just yet, but we’ve certainly just had a scare.

The wife woke me up this morning (she opens the daycare early), said an ambulance was in the way, and asked if I could sneak the van past it. My brain typically doesn’t wake up until about ten, so I hadn’t registered what she had said; but driving the van through delicate maneuvers I can do. Well, I get outside, and it’s obvious that no, I can fit big things through tight spaces and do it in a mirror, but this wasn’t gonna happen. And there was an ambulance in the neighbor’s drive.

Maybe I can get them to back up a couple of feet. There’s an ambulance. It’ll just take a moment. There’s a fucking ambulance … ah fuck …

So I get to his door, and he’s on the floor, the paramedics have him wrapped in a blanket and buckled up. Another neighbor, a young man, was on his way to work (walks) when he heard a crash and came to inspect (bless his heart; I talked the wife into giving him a lift after). They try asking my neighbor questions, he’s mumbling and incoherent from where I’m standing, at the door, at his feet. Stroke?

I’m now thinking fast, like molasses, answering what questions—asked of me—I can.

Stuff like, “Do you know anything about him?”

“Uhhh, not really.” Then, “I suppose I should go tell so-n-so.” And I walk away.

“Would he know anything?”

“Well, he’s the son.”

“Oh perfect.”

While I’m thinking about definitions of perfect, I see a fire truck pull up and four guys clamor out. That’s when it dawns on me: the two ambulance attendants were women. I bang on the son’s door, wide open due to hot summer days, I holler, “HOY, YOUR DAD’S GOING TO THE HOSPITAL ON A STRETCHER.” There’s not much else to say. Bangin’ and crashin’, he bursts from the trailer in shorts, trailing a shirt as he hops while securing his sandals.

We get back to the old guy’s place and the emergency services folk have him NOW strapped to a backboard and on a stretcher; I know the backboard was new because there were more buckles, of a different color, so the women of my rough build couldn’t even get him on the backboard. Okay, so I don’t know much about ambulance services and it’s been over two decades since I took emergency first aid, so I may be a little biased.

Thankfully we live in a sleepy city where I make jokes about juvenile candy bar theft when I see three cop cars at a store. But the old guy was about 250 pounds, and the paramedics required a fire truck (men) to come down and carry him a total of 50 feet; hell, he crashed in the kitchen, virtually at his front door. Whatever, he’s at the hospital by now; according to sound bites from the son, he’s been complaining of pain in his left arm for a couple of days now, so I guess that’s a heart attack?

It grinds my goat. Last year I did work for a former nurse, and she mentioned that nurses aren’t allowed to lift more than 50 pounds. I had asked her—because of the nature of our town—”What patient have you seen that’s under 50 pounds?” She shook her head. “What patient have you seen that’s under 100 pounds?” She snorted, so I asked, “What patient have you seen under 150 pounds?” The numbers just don’t make sense, until you hear the stories from male nurses, who wind up doing the “heavy lifting.”

But equal pay for equal work, right … RIGHT???

About Clint Carpentier

He's a halfway serious introvert, plodding through life watching people and taking notes. Call him anti-social, he won't deny it, because society keeps giving him reasons to turn his back on it.

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  • Lastango

    But the old guy was about 250 pounds, and the paramedics required a fire
    truck (men) to come down and carry him a total of 50 feet; hell, he
    crashed in the kitchen, virtually at his front door.

    That might not have worked out in Toronto. A while back, the fire chief there refused to attempt to achieve diversity by dumbing down the recruitment standards. So the mayor and city council seized on a pretext to terminate his employment. They replaced him with someone willing to function politically.

    • CSM-1000

      Good, that way if Rob Ford (present mayor of Toronto) ever requires paramedic services, he can rely on the female empowered brigade to carry him off to safety. Based on visual cues, I believe it would require no less than ten of the usually short, stout, highly rotund Canadian women ambulance attendants to accomplish the task successfully, given Rob’s considerable girth and “presence”. Imagine the pictures and headlines it would spawn.

    • Scatmaster

      Not questioning you but that is extraordinary knowing Rofo’s politics.
      I must have missed that when the news came out though admittedly I try to ignore any news from that self proclaimed center of the universe. IMO Toronto is a festering boil on the buttocks of the world.

      • Lastango

        His name was Walter Shanahan. He was forced out in 1995 by then-Mayor Barb Hall and her band of merry Metromarxists.

        • Scatmaster

          txs.

  • earth one

    This video was linked by JustTellMeWhy in the article about the fires in Sweden. It’s worth of reposting:

    Helena Lindberg, Sweden’s head of Civil Contingencies, talking at great length about how men’s ‘archetypal’ strength and bravery are oppressing the poor Swedish women who are on firefighter duty. Women constitute 4.6% of Rescue Services in Sweden. According to Lindberg, the ‘macho’ men cannot successfully integrate with the idea of modern firefighting using “smart techniques” and equipment. In other words, using technology created by men to take the hard labor out of firefighting, so that women can participate – because after all, firefighting doesn’t require great strength, does it? She begins around 4:35.

    • Mike Brentnall

      There’s that word again, bandied about since the 1980s or earlier – dominance. The word conjures visions of nefarious individuals with similar intent, complete with knitted eyebrows and squinting eyes, lording over and controlling others. The villain (‘Yee-uh-uh-uhhh’).

      But the root word ‘dominate’ can be used here in a more practical sense meaning ‘majority’ – “to have foremost place in”. So, yes, men “dominate” many activities in culture – positions of earned authority, especially trades and occupations, (and, unfortunately, prisons) – because…well, men of this industrial era were required to support family and service the infrastructure (or ran afoul of it). Places where many women avoided, where most physically could not (or were, with kind regard, kept from).

      So man as the greater pack-mule of society – is elementary stuff, for an educating and otherwise site such as this. An element of the silent lurkers reading here have yet to come to terms with certain aspects of what once was – a design mostly out of necessity versus total exclusivity.

      Cliff’s article above pointed to that even when a level occupational playing field has been artificially induced some areas of performance still isn’t up to snuff. Aside from the old nepotism we’re living in an newer era where the best and most qualified do not always land the plum jobs or acquire the top positions. A maligning political expedience has entered the picture and has “dominance” over us now.

    • Berth Ljunggren

      The physical test for firefighters has been lowered here in Sweden to not discriminate women, if 100 people apply for training, 5 women and 95 men, i bet as it was 70-80 of the men would not qualify either but they don’t start screaming about discrimination, they work harder and try again.

      In the end a fire in a factory will not burn colder or less fiercly cause the firefighters are female, but maybe they can sue for discrimination :)

      • earth one

        Yes, and I can just see all of the female firefighters with their long blond hair, rushing into burning structures with “smart techniques and equipment” that they will use to carry out the unconscious victims trapped inside. No strength needed. Just bring along the magical technology that proves women are exactly the same as men.

        Nothing could possibly go wrong with that plan…

        • Clint Carpentier

          Magical technology that’s magically weightless.

          If a technology is capable of making a woman physically an equal to her male comrades, what makes her think she’ll be required at all? That’s the most baffling part; if it can put a man outta work, just what makes you think… blah blah???

        • Bewildered

          LMFAO! But yet they say women are not privileged. If a man had said the exact same things that this woman was driveling about he would be correctly called an idiot, but SMH @$%@#$%*(!&(…..grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

      • Graham Strouse

        They can sue the fire!

        • Berth Ljunggren

          Would not be surprised if they tried that :)

          • Graham Strouse

            That mean fire was a tool of the patriarchy!

      • Berth Ljunggren

        I fail to see why less women is a problem really, maybe women are not interested to run into burning buildings, lets force them at gunpoint :p

      • Dan Slezak

        Sheesh, I cant wait for those feminists to just invent robots already, and get it over with.

        • Clint Carpentier

          Won’t happen. Even if feminists were intellectually capable of creating such robots, the concept is tragically flawed on so many levels. I’m not merely stating that from a head-in-the-sand perspective either; A good hard thinking of the parameters necessary for women to take over mens jobs, necessitate that those very same machines will preemptively take those jobs from women too. But even that much won’t happen, because the machines will be either too big, or too intricate, to do the job adequately; it’s the whole reason we still HAVE manual labor, if men can be replaced, they will already have been. The most capable robot to replace men as a whole, will be the “terminator” or “iRobot” model; but the inherent instability of a bi-ped, means it will be heavily loaded with gyros just to keep it upright; and lame parts will be over-killed so carrying ability can justify it’s existence, because the delicate parts, will be too feeble to do precise work.

          In the end, it will be an over-priced, over-weight, dust collector, due to specifications which can’t be changed on the fly… like a worker can change duties on the fly, in order to justify working a whole day. Notice, all our greatest toys that do such wonderful things, tend to do a lot of sitting in idol; while the workers who are supposed to be using them, tend to just get shit done without them.

          The idea of a mechanical general purpose worker, is like thinking about the amazing Xbox-One, which can also do all household chores AND watch it’s own tv program… … … why???

      • Bewildered

        When you let in ideology common sense flies out of the window.

    • jbantifem

      My Gawd, it’s like these women live in some fantasy world instead of the real one. I find myself scratching my head a lot at all these women I know who prefer to make decisions on fantastic ideas rather than the reality that is staring them straight in the face. It’s like they never got past the age of 8 years old.

      And the US is most likely going to elect a female President who lives in her own man-hating, misandric fantasy world.

      This world needs an enema. That’s all there is to it. Maybe a 2012 world-ending scenario would have been a good thing. Human beings need a huge reality check.

      • CSM-1000

        When the US elects Hitlary to the post of commander-in-chief she will immediately demand that the whole world follow suit and transform into one giant gynocratic misandrist hive, with the UN acting as centralized mothership to all the other localized colonies. Any resistance will be met by economic sanctions, if not the threat of armed intervention… that is, until the US defaults on its national debt held by the BRICS and they finally bitch-slap her back into place (with Putin volunteering his personal hand for the task). Hard to send in the boys when there is no money left to pay for their deployment and no one is ready to lend you any more, given what your true credit rating stands at.

        In passing, have you noticed how ugly that woman has turned out lately. And I don’t just mean due to natural aging. I guess the old Buddhist saying really is true:

        “Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.”

  • ComradePrescott

    I’ve noticed that a lot of the people I really appreciate are hated for being right all the time. There’s a lot of truth in this article.

  • Mark Wharton

    Political correctness is more important then the life of a man. If the job requires lifting heavy objects or people it should be filled with people that can do it, man or woman.

  • Shinobi Theninja

    Soooo when you have politically correct policies putting women into high labor jobs. THEN you tell society that fat is the new sexy… Perhaps this situation might resolve itself after a few BBW fade away because their not so BBW caretakers couldn’t lift, pull, support and or operate on them?

  • Not buying it

    Equal pay for equal work!!!!, yah plus they can do everything we can do while wearing high heels!!!, yah afcourse, although on occasion we have too do It, !!! and shut up about it , cause pointing that fact out is misogynistic. Yep rigggght

  • Not buying it

    You wouldn’t last two days in most civil servants jobs nowadays, plus chances are you wouldn’t had any judgments in your favor nowadays even in the land down under, Sir, the noose is a whole tighter nowadays.

  • http://www.judgybitch.com Janet Bloomfield

    Clint, I just had the same damn thing happen in the ER – burned my hand and two nurses tried to cut my rings off, yanking on 2nd degree burns in the process. I finally insisted they call a male nurse and in 10 second he had the rings off.

    http://judgybitch.com/2014/07/29/yes-nurse-ratchet-men-are-stronger-than-women-please-get-over-that/

    When ideology trumps actual patient care, it’s time for a goddamn change!

    • Clint Carpentier

      Well, I’ve been asked a couple times now, so here is as good a place as any. Updates…

      Currently, he’s talking again, but he’s paralyzed down the left side. Now, the debatable part, could it have been prevented?

      He’d been complaining for a couple days prior, about pain in his left arm, it’s been going numb. He tried to get an appointment, and the nurse at the time, didn’t bother to check his medical history, telling him he’s just got a pinched nerve in his rotator cup (the shoulder socket). If she’d checked the history, she would have seen he’s had five bi-passes already.

      So for those with medical knowledge, the question is posed, could this stroke have been prevented?

      • earth one

        Clint, thanks for posting this story – here’s hoping your neighbor will recover as much as possible and be doing better – soon.

        • Clint Carpentier

          Well, he’s been moved to Terrace, and they’re considering moving him to Vancouver. By the sounds of it, it’s not looking very good.

      • -DJ-

        Yes, time is critical with stroke patients. According to a recent study in Australia there is indication that every minute of time lost cost the patient two days of healthy life.

        They are currently running public service adds in our area demonstrating symptoms and emphasizing time as a critical factor.

        • Clint Carpentier

          How could the stroke have been prevented beforehand, had the nurse looked at his file?

          And what is done to mitigate once the stroke occurs?

          I’m going to assume the ambulance is ill equipped to handle a stroke situation, seeing as both paramedics were standing there until the fireMEN showed up.

      • Sunny Foxes

        It is impossible to prove in a court of law, that the delay in treatment in this specific case, DID cause further harm to the patient and was due to medical negligence, from the information you have provided.

        I hate to be the one to say this, but it is possible to significantly REDUCE the risk of stroke and heart attacks by eating healthily and reducing the body mass to a healthy level. I say this to educate readers, not to vilify the patient. Prevention is better than cure.

        That said, there is a lot that is provable.

        1) Paramedics can reasonably expect that 1/3 of their patients will be obese because 1/3 of all people are obese.

        2) Obese patients are at an increased risk for a number of medical conditions, like Myocardial infarction and stroke, that paramedics are expected to treat and transport to advanced, effective in-hospital treatment, without delay.

        3) Paramedics are trained to understand and ensure that patients of certain pathologies, like myocardial infarction and stroke, are to be transported, without delay, to the nearest place of effective treatment. The “golden hour” principle.

        4) There was a significant delay to transporting the patient, that was reasonably avoidable. It is reasonably avoidable because it can be reasonably predicted that obese/heavy patients exist and will succumb to these medical conditions and call for help from paramedics. They have been doing so for years.

        5) Present emergency service policy, specifically the fitness standards, are deliberately erroneous and based on principles not related to the best interests of these patients, and therefore inadequate to meet the needs of these patients and therefore the policy is willfully negligent.

        I would suggest that you seek professional medical-legal advise from a specialist lawyer to make a case of vicarious liability against the emergency services. A very good specialist medical-legal lawyer can make a case from this where I live. But I don’t know about Canada’s laws.

    • OldandNavy

      Your hand ok?

    • http://batman-news.com MGTOW-man

      Oh! but we can’t tell women this truth. They will accuse us of hating women. And of course, it is “insignificant” that most women do not have the strength to do what most men can easily do. Those “privileges” of males are terrible and btw, worthless. Women MUST be paid the same no matter the truth that completely surrounds the circumstances. But if reversed and women are more adept and stronger, we must never forget it…never! If we do, again, we “hate women”.

  • Jesse James

    In the service it is all too common that women get advanced more, for less physical test performance than men. Yet they get paid the same, have to work less hours because…female anatomy, and get treated like princesses for fear they accuse someone.

    They also pass themselves around in, I would say, 35-40% of the cases of women being there. They talk about their string of lovers in ways that make a man like me blush.

    So let’s see, they get preferential tretment, preferential advancement, and we all get forced into “safety standowns” (where the whole base is forced into a movie theater and forced to endure mental brainwashing on a topic) where we are informed just how badly our resident “wittle perfect, and totally unique in every way” snowflake has it oh so very bad.

    They all know the truth, they are untouchable. And they use it to devastating effect.

    They can silence any man they have slept with, and have a train of other men waiting in the wings for free action.

    There are good ones that do get wifed up. Yet one could argue that their subsequent divorce, free medical ride, child support, ability to use their kids to get paid the same but miss deployment, and their absolute silence on what they perceive to be preferential treatment really does call into question if there are any good service women at all.

    I can’t say I met too many.

    When I got out, all those being ousted by the down sizing were white males. All the women, 20 in fact, were preggo and their unit deployed. The minorities there being out processed were doing so for disciplinary issues. Except my roomate. He and I were talking about it. He was there because both of his feet were being operated on over a two year period. He agreed with me as to the disparity. All the minorities there, except for him, were there because they could not behave themselves.

    All the rest of us were white guys who were told we had to go, and “Thanks for your service!” No room for me. Gee, after being out processed, I was left to wonder “Why?”

    When you see that the majority of those working “over you” are largely minority females, and those who are leaving due to pregnancies, or disciplinary issues, are all different from you in obvious ways; it is very hard to take anything seriously anymore when they preach about “equality.”

    The majority of the obituaries due to war dead are white males. About 70-80%. 10-15% are minority males, the rest women.

    Yet if all of those men could come back to life, black/white/latino, the very first thing Uncle Sam would do is give them a safety standown to tell them how bad their female counterparts had it, and “Thanks for dying.” Oh, don’t forget, “Here’s your child support debt we saved for you since your “beloved” left for another man.

    I have said this to everyone. Regardless of gender, orientation, or race.

    There is nothing to say.

    You can’t argue fact with fiction. Feminists have tried, and reality is coming around full bore.

    I hope it trots off with them right after it sweeps away their beta orbiters.

    • Dan Slezak

      I hated that shit! In my shop, all the junior enlisted females (e-3 down) filled up the easy billets and the men got all the physical ones. Same thing with the working parties. I saw an E6, pick up her khakis then LDO in the same promotion cycle! The quotas are disgusting!

      • Matthew Lane

        Wow, I have no idea what half those words mean. That means you must have an awesome job.

  • jbantifem

    I hope the old guy turns out to be ok and he gets the help he needs. Thanks for sharing the story.

    I’ve had women literally push me out of the way thinking they can do something I’ve been doing for 20+ years better than I can. They completely botch it up of course and then attempt to blame me for not showing them how to do it properly. It’s happened in both work and social environments.

    I will say though that this doesn’t just come from women. I see young men, teens to early 20s, who behave in the same way. They insist they can do everything better than anyone else. Sure, young people usually are pretty ignorant that way, but they’re worse than when I was young. I was told to shut up, watch, listen and learn and I’m glad I did.

    Most young people these days haven’t been taught what it’s like to lose, as well as win. Many parents don’t teach their kids about integrity and working hard to accomplish something. It’s all about the here and now and not the reaping of benefits from a long time of trial and error.

    These are just some of my personal experiences. This particular issue there though is something to be very concerned about. Good luck to anyone weighing over 50 pounds (anyone over the age of 5 pretty much) if they’re ailing and two female paramedics show up to attend to you. You’re a goner.

  • TPH

    2 Paramedics who cannot lift a man onto the backboard and carry him 50 feet, 50 Freaking feet! are costing the man precious time in his situation. I’m all for equality in emergency medical services as long as the female EMT’s and fire personnel are held to the same physical requirements as men. Political correctness and gender based hiring quotas endanger lives unless there is a clear standard that can’t be politicized.

  • Chris Smith

    …Also consider the added cost for this so called “equality”. Time and resources wasted.

    • CrazyHorse1942

      That’s the vilest thing about pandering to feminizm, is that it takes copious amounts of money away from helping those that are truly in need. How feminists can keep a straight face when they claim to be a force for equality and good in society, is the most shameful act of all.

      There aren’t enough negative words to describe the hatefulness of the movement and the damage feminizm has caused to society. Their being held accountable must be firm and somewhat merciless.

  • http://batman-news.com MGTOW-man

    Shhh! Dont tell anybody but men are supposed to pretend for women. If they don’t, they “hate women”.

  • Mordridakon

    Last year I had kidney stones, and two paramedics, a man and a woman, showed up and both carried 220 pound me down the condo stairs into the ambulance. I should add that she was heftier than most female paramedics I’ve seen.

    • Scatmaster

      I have to admit that when I had my first heart attack I (250 pounds at the time) I was carried down the stairs by two young slim and trim blond women. Though it was more a function of proper technique. Gurney same height as bed. Sheet slipped under me, wrapped around me, pulled and slid me on to it. The trip downstairs paramedics have training for that as well as the sheet trick which is practiced in hospitals as well. They had me out of the house in 3-4 minutes. No complaints. So at least in the city I live in they treat the women paramedics as they do the men and if they can do the job without asking for special favors that is the time I will say you go gurrrrl. Tis the way it should be but sadly as my other post states it is not the case in certain jurisdictions in Ontario as it pertains to their police forces.

  • Scatmaster

    My brother in law used to work for a local police force.
    The female police officers at the local force were not allowed to go into a bar fight only the male officers. Domestic situations as well. On top of all that the lesbians had a separate bathroom.

    • Mark Wharton

      LOL 3 bathrooms.

      • http://batman-news.com MGTOW-man

        Well 3 is better than one. Just like on cop drama brainwashers, it might not be long before men and women share the same locker rooms. Apparently, those type of women are threatened by not getting to be in the same male bastion gathering. But I wonder, when men’s eyes start working again (wink, wink…while in locker rooms where other men get naked) in which they can temporarily look down long enough to scope out women’s bodies undressed, will they be in trouble for eye rape?

    • http://batman-news.com MGTOW-man

      On a Dr. “Feel” show, an incoming caller who is a police woman shocked Phil as well as the audience by saying this: (paraphrased) “From my experiences, when something goes down that is dangerous, like when a man needs sequestering, the police women she has seen just stay back, let the men do the hard stuff and seem to be in the way. ” She was being honest about most of the female officers not being able to apprehend or handle dangerous suspects. I could tell by her mood she was dubious about having females as partners because most of them just can’t muster the stuff that requires physical strength.

      But they have to be paid the same for their inequality that, shhh, we aren’t supposed to notice. I wonder how the cowardly male officers there can stand themselves when they pat those women on their backs for being “good cops”.

      Phil and his audience puppets seemed shocked, but I wasn’t.

      The show was about women can do everything as good or better than men. So apparently the staff failed to properly screen the incoming callers. Occasionally, the truth gets past them.

  • k.j.mckenzie

    I have been a nurse for over 40 years. Of course we don’t lift patients. My hospital has a policy that forbids it. We have mechanical and electric lifts, and male and female RNs must use them. Do you suppose the stronger of us fling patients over their shoulders and carry them down the halls? In the unlikely event there is a situation where a lift cannot be used, a nurse would ask for assistance from as many other nurses as required. Under no circumstances would we stand back and expect a male nurse to do the job by himself. Even if so inclined, my unit has only two male RNs. Years ago there were none.
    Jeez. What an ignorant article.

    • Clint Carpentier

      “Even if so inclined, my unit has only two male RNs. Years ago there were none.”

      And years before then, they were all male.

      • Sunny Foxes

        Not so…. RNs (Registered Nurses) have always been dominated by women, since the beginning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nursing

        • Clint Carpentier

          Cool, I’ll keep that in mind the next time I shoot from the lip. However, I’d like to point out that most of that history isn’t registered (ie. educated) nurses. If you could give me a similar history of registered nurses, I’d be grateful.

          • Sunny Foxes

            My wife is a RN, and they are taught (I believe correctly) that throughout history women have been the “caregivers” and “medical help” to doctors.
            Though they were unpaid and not formally educated, many worked for their doctor/husbands and were informally educated by their doctor/husbands.

            Wives, daughters and servants (mostly female) of a family were expected to provide care for their family members as directed by doctors.
            The doctor visited and gave directions and prescriptions to the female family members.
            The history that is available comes from the elite (nobility and gentry) because they could write it down.
            Women were very valuable members of the elite families and did almost all the care giving.
            The peasants, on the other hand, had to go to monasteries/churches/temples for any medical help, if any was available, and their wives and daughters took care of them as best they could (in other words – watched them die).
            Up until 1860 medicine was very unscientific anyway and your chances of survival were slim – if you survived, it was in spite of what your doctor did, not because of his treatment.
            Official and formal nursing training began soon after doctors became scientific because nurses added value and improved the outcome for patients, and this is proven scientifically.

    • Nathan

      WHat is your point here?
      It’s hardly a fair point to call it ignorant. What exactly do you do in a situation like the one listed, where there ISN’T an electric lift to use?
      The point being made isn’t women are weak, it’s that sometimes, standards are there for a reason and lowering them to achieve a ‘gender balance’ can actually cause more harm than good.

      • ERP

        You really think nursing standards have been ‘lowered’ to allow women to work? Really? Have a think over that one.

        • Nathan

          Perhaps you should read over my comment again, and turn off the anger and aggression?

          I didn’t say nursing standards had been lowered so women could qualify. You are actually putting words in my mouth here, and it’s pretty dang offensive.
          What I did say, is that sometimes, lowering standards to meet a gender requirement can cause harm, because you get people who are not capable of meeting the requirements of their role.
          Case in point, the example in the article, where two female paramedics were unable to lift a paitent.
          Now, does it mean that no women can do those jobs? of course not. But if we lower the standard so more women qualify, we do run the risk of people being injured.
          I hope that my point has now been made clear.

          • ERP

            Anger and aggression? Please. Sarcasm, yes.

            I don’t think standards should be lowered to allow people who cannot do the job to work. Ever.

            However you are implying that these two female paramedics got the job due to standards being lowered. That’s obviously (surely?!) not the case. They are clearly very competent, and being able to chuck a very large man over their shoulder is not an important part of their job- as k.j.mackenzie makes very clear.

          • Nathan

            I’m not, the article is.
            And, being able to lift a patient into an ambulance IS an important part of a job for a paramedic.
            k.j.mackenzie’s post was not really relevant given they were talking about nursing in (I assume) a hospital, rather than a paramedic who is at the scene of the incident.
            I can’t speak to how the paramedics got hteir job, their qualifications, or any of that. However, we do hear about physical standards being dropped for jobs like firefighter, police officers, paramedics, ect, .
            Can YOU say unequivocally that standards weren’t changed to let more women qualify?

          • http://batman-news.com MGTOW-man

            Standards were lowered in many areas of work and no one needs references when the proof is right in front of them. If not, they can look it up for themselves unless something is wrong with their fingers. If there is so much wrong with their claim then the proof they readily find on the net, in libraries, etc will immediately set the record straight, NO? Since they do not like what you said, the impetus is on THEM to prove you wrong.

            It is more important that women “get” to be what they FEEL is equal than it is to be honest, even, and fair…and uuhmm, truly equal. (“True equality” are bad, bad words in femspeak…ever wonder why they have so much issue with truth, true, etc?…that will tell us a lot about how their minds work—and don’t, namely that of being as objective).

            If reversed, and with women’s mostly superiority in verbal/communication skills in general, (No generalization is perfect, nor does it have to be, or should be…that is not the point of them), if less talented men wanted in, for the same pay, women would be outraged for our “oppressive” societies not recognizing the powers of women as evidenced by comparing them to lesser abilities. Men would be seen as whiners for wanting the same pay.

            The point: men aren’t allowed to have any human attributes that might be solely (or mostly) their domain. Men must share, women do not have to. To expect them to share is to “hate” them.

          • Sunny Foxes

            The fitness standards have been recently “made fair” non-sexist by almost all the emergency services, but the patients’ needs and standard of care are also lowered as an unfortunate result.

            The emergency services do not want to be sued by “empowered women” with no power to lift and carry heavy (heart attack prone) patients. http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

            Who cares about the patients’ needs and standard of care anyway!

            We must “empower” women at all costs!

            Wait until a patient’s’ family sues the emergency services for poor care due to avoidable treatment delays, then they will fire the “empowered woman” as a scapegoat, when the “new fitness standards” and the policy makers are at fault.

            Which is unfortunate and unfair to the woman that has been lead to believe (lied to) that the “new” fitness standards are reasonable, moral and legally defendable.

          • -DJ-

            That is absolutely the case. It is not the case with nursing, but in every federal, state licensing and testing qualification for emergency services there are now two standards, one for females and one for males (this would include military service also).

            This was done well back in the 80s as women could not qualify under the previous requirements so the standards were altered from “requirement of the job”, to “requirement based on the average man or woman”.

            No question that A woman could do the job, but women in general, not so much.

          • ERP

            Are you able to find anything to back up your claim that “in every federal, state licensing and testing qualification for emergency services there are now two standards, one for females and one for males”, specifically in the case of paramedics (which is, after all, what this article is about)?

            For example, http://umanitoba.ca/faculties/kinrec/bsal/programs/occupation/criticare/test.php says that “Standards are the same for men and women because the job of a Paramedic is the same for each.”

            I know there are different requirements in many sectors, and I’d be interested to know of the extent of the differences in the case of paramedics. As far as I can see, it’s equal.

          • -DJ-

            Are you able to find any proof of the bulllsnot you’ve been slinging?

            Sorry, being a bit factitious, but yes, there is proof. Go to any city.gov, or any federal web site and look up civil service exams. Look up physical tests for men and women in civil service and the military. All the information is readily available.

            All add further that I come from a family of police officers and fire fighters, worked in emergency services, was a Marine and my wife is a nursing director that has been up and down the corporate ladder (at one time managing over 1000 nurses).

            She is semi-retired, supervising a health care facility part of the week. She deals with ambulance drivers every day. She deals with nursing issues, patient lifts, you name it, every day. She, and many women like her that have to deal with this issue, concurs. Among the police officers, it is no secret that shifts are altered, situations modified in order to have male police on the most dangerous shifts, on the scene. Likewise, women are considered better, by many, at handling such things as domestic disputes.

            There is also sexism going the other way. Male officers are not allowed to search “handle” female perpetrators and often have to wait for a female officer to arrive on the scene. No such “rule” exists for female officers with male perpetrators. They are fully authorized to search and apprehend any male at any time, thus allowing only them to do their complete and effective job.

            Further, in a ruling by the supreme court, males are no longer allowed to work in the housing sections of female prisons, at all and there are extreme strict restrictions everywhere else. The law does not encompass female guards who are fully authorized to guard, strip search, guard will showering male patients with full access to living quarters and bathroom facilities even in lieu of sexual harassment claims made by many, many male prisoners (including sexual favors, humiliation, abuse etc.)…which just happens to be the greatest part of the argument put forth by feminist groups to the Supreme court on behalf of women.

            I understand your assumptions, but speaking to one friend about a national epidemic of sexism and discrimination, the many issues brought about by this blind allegiance to “women’s rights above all else” will not grant one the full picture or the ability to see just how deep this rabbit hole goes….and its pretty damn deep when those sworn to correctly and honorably interpret the bill or rights have the biggest shovels.

            As I said. A woman can do the job (and more power to her if she can), but women? No. Male strength cannot be used as a crutch when it suits the needs of women, then denied as existing when…..it works to the females advantage.

            Well, it can, but harbor no illusions, the male humans are learning, and they are going to have something to say about it real soon. ;p

          • -DJ-

            I’m not sure how to quote on this board, but I do want to address your province of Manatoba link.

            As I’ve stated previously, the standards for women were dropped below 100 lbs and this test that you linked strongly resembles a female test.

            Several years ago a gentleman filed suite against my state because he was denied entry into the State Police Academy after failing the male test while a woman was granted application after passing the female test.

            Luckily, the state supreme court ruled in his favor stating in opinion that the state does have an interest in protecting the individual within the realm of fair and equal treatment in hiring. Consequently, as it appears to be in that link, the standards were dropped, across the board, to that of the female standard for height, weight, strength etc.

            As a result, we can now see male officers of small stature that are unable to pass standards of safety long set forth for the protection of citizens out there right along with the females, and again see the zeal in which the “women’s rights above all else” is expressed, thus putting us all at greater risk, on an equal plane, so as to support the agenda of this so called “equal rights” campaign.

            Don’t get me wrong though. My contention is not to deny women any right or employment, but to simply point out the agenda at work here. Neither am I offended by your vehement attempt to deny its existence. In fact, I welcome such as this type of argument, denial only serves to fuel the fire in the belly of these guys and by extension, fuel the movement.

            Looking at the big picture, its win as far as I’m concerned.

          • Sunny Foxes

            I respectfully disagree, a paramedic or fireman’s (or for that matter a policeman’s) purpose is to serve the patients’ needs, not their own.
            In order to do so, they must be prepared for and tested for the worst case scenario, not the “average”, pipe-dream, wishful-thinking scenario.

          • -DJ-

            Again, I think you are misinterpreting what I was alluding to. When I said, “luckily” it was in regard to fair and equal opportunity, not that I agree with the standard. In fact, I agree with you on that, but, if we are going to jeopardize patient safety, we cannot add an edge to that sword by doing so only when it benefits the employment rights of women while discriminating against men.

            The whole thing is insane, and getting worse, but that’s what happens when political correctness succeeds all, including common sense. The correct approach would be to raise to the male standard (which is not even, and this is even funnier, a “male” standard, but the standard required to do the job).

            They attempted this in my Marine Corps. but quickly realized that only a tiny percentage of women could meet the male standard, which just would not be acceptable. LOL. As far as I can remember, the Marine Corps is the only military force that also still trains its men and women separately (may have also changed, but you know those marines: Macho, oppressive, patriarchal cavemen. ;p)

          • Sunny Foxes

            Hello.

            I am a paramedic. An EMT-P. I can tell you that these standards – you have linked to are the “new”, “lowered” and “fair” standards. Yes, they apply to both sexes, but the patient suffers due to these “new” standards.

            To carry the patient, gurney, equipment, etc. can (and eventually will at some point of a paramedics career) weigh up to 440+ lb (200+ kg). Patients weighing 330 lb (150 kg) do exist. They have a nasty habit of having an MI (heart attack) at the 10th floor after climbing the stairs, because the elevator is not working.

            These “new fitness standards” that you linked to, have more than halved the old standards.

            “EXERCISE #3 – Stairway ascent and descent both forward and backward carrying a 110 lb barbell. (50kg)” It used to be 220 lb (100 kg) and 5 flights of stairs.

            But apparently, according to the “new, lowered, fair, non-sexist fitness standards”, MI prone patients have become lighter and buildings have become shorter (only one flight of stairs) and MI patients can now wait for “Real Men”TM (AKA fireMEN) to come carry them inspite of the American Heart Associations insistence that time to hospital and treatment matters.

            These “standards” are a joke, motivated solely for political correctness, not for the patients benefit.

          • Sunny Foxes

            Not anymore, the politically correct powers that be have done away with the “sexist patriarchal male” fitness standards. Now there is only one “female” standard for paramedics in almost all emergency services and paramedic schools.

            The needs of the patient (the reason for the “sexist patriarchal male”) fitness standards are just not important anymore!

          • -DJ-

            Yeah, I touched on that in a latter post regarding a decision handed down involving the State Police in my state.

          • http://batman-news.com MGTOW-man

            But in combat, women darned well might need to foist big men over their shoulders and zig-zag to safety. I guess they should just run away to save themselves. However, most all men would have very little problem carrying women to safety…so women’s chance of bring saved is greater, huh ? But as long as we pay the women the same, their panties will stay out of a twist.

          • -DJ-

            Right side, left side.

            This was explained to me by someone that was still in, so I can’t vouch for its accuracy, but my experience leads me to believe that it is typical.

            There was an attempt (not sure if it still exists but I’m pretty certain it was short lived), when convoys stopped for “head breaks”, to split the sexes to sides of the convey so as to protect, with a modicum of privacy, the women.

            This would put 100 soldiers on one side, and 4 on the other (random numbers of course, but averaged from approximate quantitative figures). Which side do we believe the ambush would come from? That is just one example. I’ve seen more.

            Its not only strength issues that concern me, but policy directed not by military objective, but feminist dictate. You already know this, but I’ll say it anyway. Feminist care very little about anything short of their agenda, including the safety of both our civilians and (especially) our boys and girls out there in the field doing the job.

            I do not get very riled about any of this as I see the mechanism working, but when we purposely put our Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, and Sailors at greater risk then need be, for purposues of domestic agenda it does tend to get a rise.

          • Sunny Foxes

            Your military tactics are off, I think you are suggesting that the attack be on the women’s side.
            That is wrong, because the real fighters (AKA men) and the majority of the force will have cover, the vehicles, to hide behind and return aimed fire.

            The attacking/ambushing force will also have to circle the vehicles, which will take time and allow the defenders time to take cover and return aimed fire.

            The ambushers will want to attack from the men’s side to press the defenders without cover against the vehicles where the defenders have to run backwards to gain cover (and be unable to return fire for fear of shooting their own). This will kill and injure the most in the shortest time.

            You are correct that the convoy should disembark equally to both sides and the “guards” (LMG) should take the high ground immediately (where they can see everything – including women taking a leak) while the rest create a perimeter before they whip out their dicks to take a leak. 30 seconds from the time the convoy stops or is stopped/attacked. This will give half the convoy force cover from the vehicles.

            Then take turns taking a leak, etc. as needed. One squad/stick/section member at a time – so only 1/8 th of the soldiers are caught with their dicks out/panties down when attacked. Which is when the women will have a little tarp erected (by men naturally) so they can do their thing in private. But soldiers rarely take females into an active war zone – even today, if they can help it.

            What you have described is the practice outside of an active war zone, where they won’t be attacked/ambushed.

          • -DJ-

            Nope. I merely asked the question. I know full well how it would go down (would not be much of an ambush attacking weak side while leaving strong side in cover. ;p) The contention was that it put the men at greater risk so as to protect the “rights” (in this case, privacy) of the women, which has been my ongoing point in this discussion.

            The practice was, again, according to the source, in Iraq, with supply convoys not outside of the theater of operation, but behind the lines. Again, I can’t speak to the truthfulness of the entire claim because I was not there and am, luckily, well passed all that well before the political correctness set in.

            The way you describe was SOP well back when I was in.

          • Sunny Foxes

            The SOP should be about the military situation and not about “female soldiers comfort”, but after I wrote the above – I remembered that not all commanders are actual dyed-in-the-wool soldiers, but uniformed bureaucrats.
            Uniformed bureaucrats are likely to:
            1) NOT know a safe zone from a war zone and/or;
            2) NOT know the military SOP for anything to do with actual war and/or;
            3) NOT know why REAL SOLDIERS (AKA REAL MEN) use these weird SOPs;
            4) think political correctness and niceness are better than surviving an attack / ambush.
            I’m so glad, i’m out.
            Life is much better as a civilian paramedic than a military medic, there are no uniformed bureaucrats to deal with.
            Have a great day.

          • -DJ-

            You too. Could not agree more.

    • Mark Wharton

      What article did you read? It is about hiring people that can do the job instead of quotas. If there is a something that women are better at I don’t want them to hire males for a quota either. The only ignorance here is you.

      • ERP

        I agree that people should be hired on merit, and absolutely abhor the idea of positive discrimination.

        That’s not the issue here though. Those two women were perfectly able to do their job, and having two men do the job would have made no difference whatsoever.

        • Nathan

          Except that they couldn’t lift the patient and the men could.
          Having men would most certainly have made it different. They could have put him in the ambulance instead of calling in firemen for one thing.
          How can you not see that?

          • ERP

            Could they? Are you sure of that?

            Perhaps simplistically that’s how it seems. In real life though, that’s not how these things work. It’s not a case of just picking someone up and whacking them on a stretcher, and it’s also not the case that the possession of a penis automatically makes you capable of lugging a very large man around.

          • Nathan

            Am I sure?
            No, not 100%.

            However, if two firemen could do it, Occam’s Razor would suggest two male paramedics could.
            Once again, you miss the point I’m making(and the article is making). It’s not that a man could AUTOMATICALLY have lifted the patient, it’s about testing the people who become paramedics to make sure they CAN lift large patients, regardless of the gender of the paramedic.
            I’m starting to think you are deliberately misinterpreting or misunderstanding the point I’m making.

          • ERP

            I think you’re (presumably not deliberately) misunderstanding how the emergency services work, and how they deal with heavy patients.

            Perhaps it’s different in whatever state this was, but generally paramedics aren’t responsible for lifting heavy patients with their own brute force. There’s heavy lifting equipment for that, and paramedics aren’t assessed on how much they can lift (within reason, of course…), male or female. They are responsible for saving lives and giving emergency initial treatment. That does include lifting patients onto stretchers (often with mechanical help), but sometimes with overweight patients extra help from fire trucks is necessary- as was the case here. I suspect the fire truck had appropriate equipment that the ambulance wasn’t fitted with. I don’t know, I wasn’t there.

            If your point is that there should be more stringent physical assessments to ensure that paramedics can lift 130lbs each, fine, though I think that’s a little silly given the equipment we now have (and I’d rather be treated with someone who was highly trained in treating emergencies, rather than someone who was highly trained in the gym).

            My point is, I suppose, that it’s a little pathetic to bring sex into this when actually I don’t think that it was an issue in the circumstances.

          • Nathan

            For someone who keeps mentioning that they weren’t there, you seem to be awfully sure that a lot of mechanised support equipment was available.
            Why, exactly, would a firetruck have equipment to lift a person that an ambulance didn’t?

            Not only that, if the firefighters have used some mechanised equipment, don’t you think it would have been mentioned in the article?

          • ERP

            You might find the following interesting (equally, you might not):

            http://articles.courant.com/2012-10-20/health/hc-ct-obese-transport-1014-20121012_1_obese-patients-dave-skoczulek-ambulance-service

            http://www.independentmail.com/news/local-news/heavy-lifting-medical-first-responders-pay-price-h

            http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Obese-putting-strain-service-crews-called-lift/story-22728690-detail/story.html

            http://www.paramedictrainingspot.com/how-much-weight-does-a-paramedic-lift/

            I wasn’t there, and the author was barely there (I certainly hope he wasn’t in the thick of it, getting in the way, in his half asleep state). So, similarly to the other comment I made re: Walmart, I think it’s foolish and unfair to make assumptions that the ambulance crew were incompetent.

            Forgot one: http://www.ljmu.ac.uk/hea/courses/121530.htm

          • Nathan

            So now he was ‘barely there’ at an event he witnessed?
            Your links take precedence over his first hand account of the event?

            I live in Australia, and from what I’ve seen we don’t have mechanised lifts on ambulances, nor fire trucks.
            And, honestly, I’m not going to read you links. Perhaps I’d be more inclined if you told me what you feel they support in your argument?

          • ERP

            I suspected you might not. I think our discussion should probably come to an end, as you seem to be too angry to chat rationally about the wider issue. I’m not claiming my links ‘take precedence’ over his first hand account at all; I’m not even suggesting they disagree with his account.

            In terms of the mechanised lifts, they are very expensive so generally they are only fitted to a few ambulances, and those ambulances are sent out to the heavy people. In parts of America in particular they are becoming the norm due to an increasing population of overweight people.

          • Nathan

            Ah..so now I’m angry and irrational?
            Charming.
            Got any examples of my anger or irrationality you’d like to share?

            As to the mechanised lifts..if they are expensive and rare, why did you assume that the ambulance/firetruck in the article had them installed.

          • ERP

            They are becoming a lot more common, as an unfortunate requirement of obesity. However in this case I am actually assuming they didn’t have all the necessary equipment, hence having to wait for assistance.

            Anyway I think the wider implications are far more interesting than arguing about this specific incidence, given that we don’t have all the facts here.

          • Nathan

            So no examples of the anger and irrationality you are claiming I show?
            Nice character assassination there. Are you going to claim I have a problem with women next?
            Given the article is about the wider implications, and everyone else has been talking about the wider implications, I am not sure why you are suddenly trying to change the topic to the ‘wider implications’.

          • ERP

            I’m trying to bring it back to the wider implications, as you seem so determined to focus on specifics about mechanised lifts.

            I’ve never known a grown man overreact like that, and have no interest in getting into an ad hominem argument with you, so I’m going to ignore the rest of that comment.

          • Nathan

            You brought up mechanised lifts, not me. You then claimed there were in common use, not me.

            You have, in fact, changed your stance, claimed information that you couldn’t back up, have ignored valid points in the argument because you couldn’t rebut them, and are not trying to characterise me as throwing some sort of tantrum…all because you are losing the argument.
            If you read back over the discussion you seem that many people, including myself, as talking about the wider implications (that lowering standards can create risk) and you are trying to talk about specifics, then claim you want to talk about the wider implications when you lose on specifics.
            You are entitled to your opinion and I’m not here to try and change your mind. I will refute your disinformation however.
            Continuing to try and charactise me as overrracting or angry isn’t going to get a rise out of me, though, sorry.

          • -DJ-

            Shaming language is not to your advantage. “A grown man” speaking out against injustice is not at all a being hysterical, or less a man….and if he is showing any level of frustration that may have more to do with your adamant denial that the sky is blue then it does his emotional instability or lack of masculinity.

            In fact, to us men (who will judge ourselves based on our own standards thank you very much), he is a greater man then many.

            Lets not go there.

          • -DJ-

            Those links are very misleading.

            The first speaks of transporting patients (which is also a duty of paramedics), not emergency response. Transporting of a patient from one equipped facility to another, where flat and even floors, elevators, is far different then what you are attempting to portray.

            The second supports Nathan’s claim that paramedics do, in fact, have to pass strength tests, and said tests are often in line with other emergency response entities, and virtually all strength tests are administered differently to men and women, thus, once again, demonstrating the point of the article.

            Among emergency workers none of this is secret and all of it is ready acknowledged. Heck, I worked at one med facility, who’s parent company had a “code blue” policy, to where if announced, all male employees were to report to a location to handle either crisis or danger. That was written into the policies and procedures.

            Sexism is very much alive an well today, but it is not men that are pushing it, but rather tolerating it. ;p

          • ERP

            From the first link: “The hydraulic systems are designed to get patients into and out of an ambulance with relative ease. Demonstrating the lift Thursday at ASM headquarters in Manchester, advanced EMT Brian Langan pressed a button to raise the stretcher into position behind the box-shaped ambulance. One finger, Langan said, replaces a minimum of four people necessary to lift a morbidly obese patient on a standard stretcher. The cutting-edge system, however, does not solve the problem of rescuing a 550-pound heart attack victim from the bathroom of a fourth-floor apartment. For that job, medics have other special equipment, including a “stair chair” with tensioned tracks that control descent and a sturdy tarpaulin equipped with multiple handles. Still, these jobs always require muscle power and extra hands. For morbidly obese patients, ASM, Aetna and other ambulance providers routinely send two crews, a minimum of four people. In many cases, firefighters and police officers help the EMTs.”

            That seems, to me, very relevant to the article, which refers to the difficulties with getting the patient into the ambulance. Not transportation from one facility to another… They do also disprove your claim that “Lifting equipment is not supplied as part of the standard equipment on an ambulance. Such lifts, such as hoya-lifts. are relegated to healthcare facilities and are far too bulky to be used in emergency situations. One may see the “jaws of life” at an emergency response location, but all lifting and moving to gurneys is done by hand.”

            The links relating to fitness assessments make no mention (as far as I can see) of any differences in expectations from men and women for paramedics. I’m not saying that there aren’t some programmes that do differentiate, so feel free to prove otherwise.

          • ERP

            In respect of your comment regarding sexism, yes, sexism is alive and well, and acts against both sexes. I can assure you I am the first to call people up on sexism against men as well as women.

          • -DJ-

            That is untrue.

            Lifting equipment is not supplied as part of the
            standard equipment on an ambulance. Such lifts, such as hoya-lifts.
            are relegated to healthcare facilities and are far too bulky to be used
            in emergency situations. One may see the “jaws of life” at an emergency
            response location, but all lifting and moving to gurneys is done by
            hand.

            Lifting of patients is also a part of the paramedics
            qualifications. They are rescue workers, not first aide administrators.
            There is a difference.

          • ERP

            Where in the world are you referring to? Perhaps there are differences in different countries, as I confirmed my thoughts with my paramedic friend a couple of hours ago.

            And yes, lifting patients is part of their job, but as I brought up in a separate thread, we have to draw a line at the weight of patient that they should be expected to lift without assistance. There are also a few links that you may find interesting relating to the topic.

          • -DJ-

            Question and a point.

            What are you implying here, that in order to forward the cause a heavier patient must stand a higher risk of death and permanent injury rather then the rescue workers, well, rescuing? Do we expect a stroke patient to wait, on the floor (when time is of the essence) while the (equal pay for equal work) men are called in to do the job?

            …..and where is that line drawn? Is 250 too heavy? Is 200? Heck, I’m in great physical shape and I go almost 240…..and with the average weight of men being far greater then that of women, is this not just one more example of discrimination against men, putting us at greater risk because (as feminist often refer), on average we are bigger and heavier then women? I wait on the floor dying while a 140 lb female gets immediate transport and critical care in because not only must we men face the discrimination, but sacrifice our health and safety in support of the cause? is tha fair? Is that “equal?”, is that “justice for all?”.

            Gets into a tangled mess very quickly once we begin to unmask, does it not? Many blades on this particular sword….and as I said, the deeper we go, the deeper the hole gets.

          • Sunny Foxes

            “without assistance”???? paramedics work in pairs – they have assistance. Two paramedics should be able to lift and carry, if necessary, a 330 lb (150 kg) patient with all their equipment – a total of about 440 lb (200 kg).

            This is a reasonable and foreseeable expectation.

            150 kg patient

            + 37 kg gurney/stretcher (MX-PRO R3)

            + 20 kg other equipment

            Mostly paramedics only ever use a basic “deadlift” exercise to lift patients onto a collapsed gurney. Then again to lift the gurney to waist height. Then it is all wheels.

            Except when:
            1)going up or down stairs, or
            2)over terrain too rough for those tiny wheels, or
            3)in confined spaces where the stretcher won’t fit.

            Then it looks like this photo…. All back pain.

            But don’t worry – we have fixed all the elevators in the world and paved every inch (with ramps) and don’t let potential patients into confined spaces anymore.
            And 1/3 of adults are no longer obese and at increased risk to heart attacks and strokes. So paramedics don’t need to be able to carry them.

          • Sunny Foxes

            You are a fool… the “golden hour” matters. Time to effective in-hospital treatment is important and life saving. Wasting 10 to 20 minutes waiting for firemen is wasting the “golden hour”. A paramedics purpose is to safely get a living patient to effective treatment as fast as possible, without delay.
            Everything a paramedic does is to facilitate getting a patient safely (without causing further harm) to effective treatment, without delay.
            All the skills and procedures paramedics use are for the single purpose of getting the patient safely and alive to effective treatment without delay and without further harm.
            Paramedics should not waste anytime on anything frivolous (like waiting for firemen to do their job.). The “golden hour” saves lives.
            A paramedic needs to be able to perform their lifesaving skills, procedures and treatments effectively. Getting a patient to effective treatment is a skill of an effective paramedic that includes and is not limited to picking the patient up, if necessary.

          • -DJ-

            Yes, it is absolutely a certainty that male firefighters could lift a 250 lb man as they must pass a test (which I took at one time) that involves carrying a 150 lb dummy by themselves (I was denied the job because of affirmative action programs requiring minorities and women FYI). The women had the weight greatly reduced (to under 100 lbs).

            Therefore, the men are legitimately qualified, and the women are not based on standardized and verifiable administered physical test as a qualification for employment.

            The men are collectively qualified to lift 300 lbs, the women qualified for 200 lbs. The man in question weighed approximately 250 lbs? The women were not qualified to lift him on a back-board.

            In this case, whether we want to accept it or not, the possession of a penis DOES, in fact, qualify one.

          • ERP

            I think you’ve misunderstood.

            I don’t know where you are referring to as there are of course different firefighting assessment criteria across the globe, so I’m not going to comment on that.

            However the women in question were paramedics, not firefighters. I have no doubt that all firefighters would be capable of lifting heavy objects. If you know of the assessment criteria that these particular paramedics would have been subject to, I’d be interested to know.

            The question raised in the article is whether male paramedics would be better than female paramedics at their job. Nothing to do with firefighters (other than the fact that they were called in, in this scenario).

            The possession of a penis DOES NOT mean that you are automatically able to lift 200lbs. That’s clearly a ridiculous statement. It makes it more likely, yes. I’m perfectly happy to accept that there is a degree of sexual dimorphism in humans, and we’d be foolish to pretend that there was absolutely no difference on average. However, I know plenty of men who would not be able to lift 100lbs, let alone 200lb, and yet they still have penises. Likewise, I know women who could lift that much without a penis.

          • Sunny Foxes

            I think you must be a troll…

            Straw man fallacies – check

            Denial of reality – check

            Moving the goalposts – check

            I train young healthy men to do these tasks, in 3 months, easily. Like this…

            http://www.fitnessblender.com/v/workout-detail/Advanced-Sandbag-Workout-Total-Body-Sandbag-Training-Burnout/hc/

            A few young healthy women can also be trained to lift their share 165 lb (75 kg) of a heavy 330 lb (150 kg) patient, but not all.

            I make my paramedics come to work early, when they are on night shift and workout with 55 lb sandbags (25 kg). They all love to hate me.

            But we won’t get sued for “avoidable treatment delays” and they won’t get fired as scapegoats for “politically correct” policy that does not benefit the patient.

        • Mark Wharton

          So it is standard procedure for paramedics to wait for the fire department to put someone in the ambulance. If it is not their job, perhaps there is something wrong with that. I mean what if firefighters had to wait for someone else to hook up the hose.

          • ERP

            Perhaps. I think we have to draw the line somewhere though at what weight we consider it essential for paramedics to be able to deal with alone. It’s ultimately a trade-off, as the best emergency medics may not be the best lifters, and which skill should we prioritise? (Bearing in mind the majority of people don’t weigh over 250lbs, personally I think lifting over 250lbs isn’t the most important skill for paramedics to have.)

          • Sunny Foxes

            Are you a paramedic? I am. The AHA and ACLS protocols say time to hospital and treatment are important and life saving. Every heard of the “golden hour.”

            Do you want the references of the 356+ medical journal articles that ALL say the same thing. Search PUBMED http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=golden+hour for “golden hour”

            Patients prone to MI’s and strokes are usually obese and over 1/3rd of american adults are obese, paramedics should not be surprised to get an obese MI or Stoke patient. http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/index.html

            Obesity is the leading cause of ….

            http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/causes/index.html

            … having a paramedic called out for a medical emergency.

          • Sunny Foxes

            No. It is not Standard Procedure or Practice because of the “golden hour” principle. Time to hospital and treatment is important, life saving, and reduces cost of treatment, rehabilitation, etc.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23684084

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15022002

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24589883

            I can reference many more medical journal articles for you, but i think you get the point.

            How much extra time does it take to call the firemen out? Usually an extra 10 to 20 minutes. You only have 60 minutes, “the golden hour”, from the time of the ischemic incident (Heart attack or stroke) to get the patient to hospital and treatment.

            The ER doctor also needs a few minutes to do the patient’s work up.

            A Paramedic team of two, should be able to safely carry their patients, even the heavy ones (up to 330 lb 150 kg), without wasting an extra 10 to 20 minutes calling for the fireMEN to help. What if the firemen are already called out to a major fire and are not available?
            Then I would call another ambulance, right? With 2 more weaklings – opps. (In this case – I think, all the ambulances were busy.) It happens often and that is why the firemen were called out.
            Even 4 weaklings, should be able to handle 110 lb (50 kg) each to pick up a 330 lb (150 kg) patient and the equipment. But it still takes them 10 -20 minutes extra.

    • ERP

      I’m frustrated at the backlash you’ve had for this comment. I don’t think people really understand real life sometimes- ignorant is the PERFECT word in this situation.

    • -DJ-

      We are talking about emergency response. I’ve already addressed this within the realm of health care facility procedure and process.

      Beyond that, the bigger question is what are we doing to advance men in this formally
      female dominated field. Are we working “equally” as hard to recruit men, alter the field to advantage them, adding to the already ridiculous workload of the female nurses so as to accommodate the men?

      Are we, or have we ever attempted to enhance their introduction
      into the nursing field, advancing them faster, addressing their specific
      needs so that in the next fifty years we don’t see 4 males, but equal
      numbers. Its rhetorical, but just demonstrating the true ignorance (as you say) of this particular spider’s web. ;p.

  • Graham Strouse

    The US Marine Corps had been planning on trading out the flexed arm hang for women this year in favor of the good old fashioned pull-up. They quietly changed their minds after discovering that 55% of female Marines were unable to meet in the three pull-up minimum required of male Marines. Three pull-ups!

  • John Rew

    I know exactly where you are coming from. 20+ years as a single parent has taught me that males in this situation are best flying under the radar. I too have never received child support not that it is a huge issue with me as I have always held self sufficiency in high esteem. I have found that when schools or other institutions become aware of the situation it only generates suspicion not help. The popular idea that women love men who can rear children is largely bullshit. The only parental role for a male that is generally valued in our society is that of supplementary parent although there is the rare exception. Fortunately for me I don’t give a flying fuck what most people think and was shovel ready to bury bodies if necessary. My advice to single male parents is put your head down, do the job, don’t expect assistance,don’t expect acceptance,and for gods sake never ever ever listen to feminists. It’s worth every minute.

  • http://garycostanza.wordpress.com gary959

    Don’t know if this still happens, but years back I heard over the PA in Wal-Mart (guess they don’t hide misandry) a call for a MALE ASSOCIATE. Gee, what stereotype do you think they ascribe to Wal-Mart men and boys that they don’t to the women? No wonder women can’t lift things – they aren’t ever asked to – and feminists are fine with that – just blame the patriarchy! Think he’s getting a raise for doing heavy lifting for the females?
    I always got angry thereafter when Wal-Mart was accused of discriminating AGAINST FEMALES! Just like feminism, they see only one side of an issue.

    Clint, good meeting you at the conference – see you at the next one!

    • Clint Carpentier

      I agree about the Wal-Mart. It’s easy to say sexism, but once you look at the actual jobs the two genders have chosen to do, in Wal-Mart, the pay disparity works out fairly. Ain’t the menz fault the gurlz can’t be bothered to try harder.

      • Nathan

        Same thing with fruit picking over here…they claim the women earn less for equal work, but what they means is equal time.
        Turns out that they pay on weight, and men pick more fruit than women per hour.
        Sexism? or biology?

        • Bewildered

          .. but what they means is equal time.
          There you go , a very important distinction
          But dumb armchair SJWs will see that as a wage gap and discrimination..

          • Nathan

            And they have. And the facts have been pointed out and mostly accepted. There has been something of a push in the past to get farmers to pay by the hour, instead of by weight picked.

    • Mark Wharton

      The only reasonable thing would be like doing something in a male or female restroom.

    • ERP

      Seems fair enough, if the problem was in the male restroom…

      • Nathan

        Where did he say the problem was in the male restroom?

        • ERP

          He didn’t. He doesn’t know where the problem was. It seems a silly assumption to make that the reason they were asking for a male employee was that they needed to do a ‘real man’ job like lift something heavy. Most company policies prohibit both men and women from lifting heavy things…

          • Nathan

            So it’s silly to assume that it was a heavy lifting job, but not silly to assume it was an issue with the male restroom?

          • ERP

            I think you’re getting a little tetchy. The point I am making is that it’s silly to base such an angry sexism tirade on such little evidence, and the most likely scenario to me is that there was a problem in the men’s restroom. That might not be the case, but to assume the worst is what we all get angry at ‘feminists’ for doing. Let’s not be hypocrites.

          • Nathan

            How exactly was it hypocritical?

            And if you feel I’m getting tetchy, perhaps it’s because I’ve explained the same point about five times now, to get another accusation of sexism in return?

          • ERP

            At no point have I accused you of sexism. Gary’s original point put the announcement down to sexism. I suggested there was a more plausible explanation. That’s all.

          • Nathan

            In the thread below, you have made reference to it. The thrust of your posts has certainly intimated that it is sexist to assume that these women couldn’t do their jobs (which no one has claimed) and if that wasn’t what you meant, it’s how you come across.
            In fact, you said it was ‘a little pathetic to bring sex into it’ which is, at best, a veiled reference to sexism.
            I find it interesting that instead of answering the question about how the original post was hypocritical, you’ve decided to get all offended at my comment about sexism.

          • ERP

            I’m not offended at all, I assure you. I’m actually fairly amused.

            The article itself said quite clearly that it was only when the men arrived that the man was able to be put in the ambulance. Fair enough, that seems factual. But the tone of it suggested that the women were therefore incompetent, and that’s something that many commenters have picked up on and agreed with. I hate to scream and shout and yell ‘sexism’, and you’ll notice that I haven’t done that at all. I’ve just pointed out that to put competency down to a blanket gender requirement is foolish.

            My comments haven’t been directed at solely you, and nor have they been attacking you. I have been responding to the wider article and responses to that, and more specifically answering to your points.

            If you want to expand on the ‘hypocritical’ point, it was that so often people get frustrated with ‘militant feminists’ who claim that every tiny thing must be sexist, and the original comment I responded to here was reminiscent of that, assuming that a small thing MUST be sexist. I’m not saying that Gary gets annoyed at women claiming sexism at everything, but given that most people do (including me), it seems a fair point to make.

            Has that clarified things for you?

          • Nathan

            Well, yes. What the author was saying was lowering standards has led to people being employed that aren’t able to do all facets of the job, and required help to do something that is a part of their job.
            While I wouldn’t call it imcompetence (and neither did the author) it is concerning when you don’t know if you’ll get a paramedic who can put you in an ambulance or one that will leave you lying on the kitchen floor while they wait for ‘backup’.
            In medical emergencies, time can be critical. The extra wait could lead to complications or even death.
            No, your comments haven’t been directly solely at me. You might feel you haven’t been attacking. I feel differently.
            I am going to disagree that you have been answering my points. You have actually been answering a point you think was being made, that wasn’t
            (for example, claiming I said that nursing standards were lowered so women could be employed).
            I can see where you were going with the hypocritical point, but, well, given that they did specifically call for an attendant of a particular gender, I think Gary did have a valid argument. After all, if we are all equal, surely a woman could have done whatever a male employee would have done?

          • ERP

            Re: Gary’s comment- women could (I assume) have done it, unless it was in a male restroom, as I said. Hence suggesting that perhaps the incident was in a male restroom…

            I’m sorry that you don’t feel I’ve done an adequate job of answering you. Are there any specific points I can clarify?

            Also, I think perhaps it’d be relevant to make the point that we have to draw the line at some point. What weight should we be certain that any particular pair of paramedics should be able to carry without assistance? It’s an interesting question. 230-250lbs, to me, would be borderline.

          • Bewildered

            After all, if we are all equal, surely a woman could have done whatever a male employee would have done?
            Questions like this will never get a direct answer. It’s a trigger to get all the hitherto unseen grays of life into the picture.
            Besides if men and women are ” equal” where’s the need to have different qualifying standards for such an important job ?

  • Nate Jones

    When I worked as a custodian we not only maintenanced our own building, but were frequently called to vacuum and shampoo the girl’s buildings, as well as do heavy lifting, as well as be there to greet new arrivals and carry their luggage. Starting pay was the same. Sure, it wasn’t a difficult job even so, but whenever there was any actual work involved we always seemed to get called for it.

  • NotoriousPAT

    The average woman has 80% of the mass of the average man and at most 80% of the muscle pound-for-pound. ( look it up) So an average woman has two-thirds the strength of the average man. I like women but just like they can have children and we can’t, we men are the heavy lifters.

    • Clint Carpentier

      I have no problems admitting that, >>I<< can understand that; that's the easy part, just look around you and the tale be told by your eyes. Unfortunately, the femtards are blind to the obvious, or else they're blatantly lying in order to fill quotas in prestigious jobs. Neither possibility is comforting.

    • http://www.StudioBrule.com Steve Brulé

      We value, protect, and reward women in every way, including their ability to have children. But our culture often punishes men for their abilities and services, as so many men discover in family court. I think it was Warren Farrell who said, and I paraphrase: A woman’s greatest strength is her weakness, and a man’s greatest weakness is his strength. This has been extended into the workplace.

    • http://batman-news.com MGTOW-man

      Oh pooh! Heavy lifting is worthless.

      I once had a job in which sexual harassment training was mandatory. When asked about any real differences between men and women, one guy said, “What about lifting heavy things?” The answer from the female trainer was “We aren’t going to count that” —even though lifting heavy boxes etc was a very significant part of the work.

      Telling the truth like that man did? He was lucky he wasn’t fired. She? Making stupid statements like what she did probably got her kudos from bosses.

      This is their wacky notions of equality: Don’t notice the truth but if it lands in your lap, pretend, lie, whatever it takes to get along.

  • http://www.StudioBrule.com Steve Brulé

    It’s the same in every industry. There are no cushy jobs for men.

  • ERP

    Sounds like you have a healthy third marriage, you must be quite a catch. She’s staying with you because she wouldn’t be able to get child support if she left? Strong. Really strong. You sound like you really care about her and trust her.

  • Jack Bower

    Not that I disagree with the premise, or your point of view, but this article was decidedly “not short” considering the simplicity of your example. And while I enjoy a “Pepperridge Farm commercial” as much as the next guy most of what I read here was entirely unnecessary to the point you were making and makes me suspect that your writing skills were honed during a time in which you were paid per word.

    • Clint Carpentier

      Gosh, I’m flattered you think so; I’ve never been paid for my writing skills, but I’ve often considered the possibility. The length of it is in regards to most of my previous articles, which are decidedly long in comparison. Also, I typed that up in the time between the ambulance having finally left, and myself going to work; I did indeed try to keep it short, that was the whole purpose of my typing that first, was to “keep this short.”

  • Frodo