Dear Traditional Woman,
I have seen you pop up and speak your voice around here from time to time in defense of men’s rights. You have lamented the toxic tide of gender feminism. You have bemoaned the way men and boys are maligned everywhere from the media to academe to the halls of government. You have spoken out most vociferously about the horrendous damage that feminism has done to the traditional family, to traditional men and to traditional values.
You have stood in the face of much opposition from feminists and from other women who even claim not to be feminists, and you have spoken your mind, even as they have jeered and tried to shout you down.
For all your work at this, please allow me to say something to you in response.
Kindly go fuck yourself.
And right quick.
You see, as much as you might like to delude yourself into thinking otherwise, you are not a voice in defense of men and boys, you are simply another female elitist defending the traditional power to enslave men to your needs, desires and whims.
No one is fooled by your fair weather defense of MRA’s. You are acting in your self-interest and your self-interest alone. I’d sooner break bread with a feminist than a traditionalist whore seeking to protect the free labor and protection that keeps her on her bon-bon fattened ass.
You want to help men? Get the fuck up off your lazy ass and get a job. Even better, find one that is good paying and that exposes you to every danger and hardship traditional men have been shielding women from for all time.
You want to help men? Take on the responsibility of being one for five fucking minutes of your pampered, entitled life and see what it actually means to be one. There are women that do that, you know? Just not women like you.
I for one am sick and fucking tired of seeing leeches come in to this movement defending nothing more than their free ride on this planet at the expense of the brainwashed bastards whose blood and sweat keeps a pillow under their ass.
You want to help men? Then quit pretending like you know a thing about their lives and start actually learning that your traditional values are nothing more than a death trap for them so that you can take everything they earn and lavish yourself with trivial desires, before they die…and after.
I know that most of you won’t be able to hear this, and I don’t give a shit. I don’t even give a shit if your stupidly self-sacrificing husbands or sons would rush in to defend your alley cat honor. There were slaves willing to die protecting their masters during the American civil war. That is what happens sometimes in the minds of the lifestyle indentured; the permanently and horrifically exploited.
You, as a woman who has a man taking all responsibility for your care, protection, well-being and childish frivolity until the day he is used up from doing so, should not be in this forum running your mouth….about anything.
You should, in all reality, hang your head in shame for being the utter waste of human space that you are.
But whatever you do, please do it elsewhere. Your empty words and shallow, ignorant ideals, are not welcome here.
Tags: Miscellaneous, Traditional Women
668 Posts in Total
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Tom Golden:
dhanu:
feeriker:
David H. Fucktrelle-Male Feminist Extraordinaire™:
Healthyself:
We’d better have scuba tanks on because we’re fucked if we hold our breath.
Hard words from a hard man.
F*CKING AWESOME!
A brief exchange that happened today between myself and an obese office cow:
“Can you help me put this chair up on that shelf?”
“By help you, you mean do it for you, right?”
“Haha, yeah.”
“Why me exacty?”
“I don’t want to hurt my back.”
“I don’t want to hurt my back either.”
“But you’re a man.”
“Well, the thing is, I’ve always been a fierce advocate for feminism. Everything I can do you can do too. I’d hate to stand in the way of equality.”
“Haha, man, you somethin’ else. Haha. It’s all good though.”(said in a way that implies it’s most certainly NOT all good)
4 hours later: the chair remains decidedly un-shelved.
LMFAO! Says it all!
Here’s a few more true stories from the vaults of my personal experience.
One day while walking to work, to work because nobody will financially support me based on what I was born as, and WALKING because as a man there are no free rides, literally or metaphorically.
As I was saying, one day while walking to work I saw a bloody display of violence mid-act. A visibly angry man was clutching the shirt of a woman who was holding an infant. He was livid about something and with one arm was pinning her against the concrete sound wall beside the freeway. Her face was a bloody mess and she was crying snotty bloody tears. One hand clutching the baby, one hand trying to cover her face. She looked at me, giving me those helpless eyes, those victim eyes, that cry for help from one human to another. Before I knew what was going on I felt the overwhelming urge to help.
Then I thought, “Naw, he’s a big guy, he can take her.”
And I kept walking to work, this time whistling happily with a large smile and a skip in my step.
I was raised by a single and abusive mom who tried, tried and failed, to blame all her problems on men. I saw how she would date violent men who would beat us and then blame “men” for it. Or she would date a regular guy and slowly, over a few months, twist him emotionally and psychologically where he would become a monster, then she would blame men. She would cry to me, telling me I was the only man she could trust. Funny, how she allegedly trusted me but hit me and abused me FAR more than any man ever has or ever could.
I was around 5 years old when she had one of her cry fits after getting beaten up from her provoking a known psychopath, she said, “It’s not your fault your dad left. Don’t blame yourself.”
I, just a wee Johnny Blank, said coldly, “I don’t blame myself. That’s absurd. You drove him away. I don’t blame him, I blame you. You date crazy people, you have two children to look out for. You need to be the adult, but you’re crying on me.” It should go without saying that for those words I received a beating I remember to this day. After every beating, which was always far more prolonged and severe than anything any man ever gave me, was followed immediately by feigned affection, forcing me to hug her and tell her that I loved her.
Years later I confronted my mother about this and, like all her misdeeds, she claimed, “I don’t remember any of that happening, it’s all in your head.” Motherhood is bullshit. I’ve seen DV first hand and can say, nay, SHOUT that it’s almost entirely the womans fault, EVERY TIME. I not only have no sympathy for women, I enjoy seeing them destroyed. Why shouldn’t I? They feel the same way about men, and it happens every day, and it’s legal, and people cheer when it happens.
My mom will never serve any prison time for how she beat, abused and molested me. What’s more is nobody even believes me. What’s more is that people will take the side of someone they’ve never met based simply on the demographic of the people in the story.
Endless fury. I will not stop any mans fist. I will smile as it flies into a mouth that has deserved it 10,000 times before but never received.
I have no problem with anyting you say, myself. When women cheer and laugh at the destruction of a man they are encouraged and applauded with “you go girl”.
Well-you go BOY. No..you go man.
“She looked at me, giving me those helpless eyes, those victim eyes, that cry for help from one human to another. Before I knew what was going on I felt the overwhelming urge to help.
Then I thought, “Naw, he’s a big guy, he can take her.”
LMAO.Genius.
Dear God. “Mommie Dearest” indeed.
I grew up with some emotional abuse – “some,” I say, not anywhere near what you’re describing. And I had my days and nights of feeling sorry for myself. But now I see that I made out like a fat rat in a cheese factory, compared to you.
And you grew up into a man who knows there is no free ride, but you have the gumption to get there on your own.
Metaphorically speaking, you “took” your mom. You survived that insane manipulative bitch and you grew up to be – A MAN!
My hat’s off to you.
I believe you.
I am female, my mother was the same. She provoked anger and fights, then cried when she got her a** handed to her, then because of her emotional crisis beat the crap out of me and my sisters and all the while blaming her husbands…
Funny the only time her husbands got violent was when she provoked a situation to that point. And they never really totally let her have it, and she was the one with fits of rage, Linda Blair style, and my mother beat me worse than anyone ever did. I still have physical scars from it…
So I always think twice before a woman is crying abuse, because while I do not advocate violence, she more than likely had it coming not sorry to say…
Did you at least remove the infant from her arms so the man could get a clear shot?
I wish I could dig my mother up from her grave and plant her ass in front of the computer to have her read this. You’ve said in just a few paragraphs what I have tried to explain to countless people over the course of my life, including my mother.
Well played,
You could have suggested that if she might want to stand on a chair if that would help.
I mean aren’t they already on a pedestal anyway ?
“….obese office cow:”
And they aren’t even good for giving milk.
93 well-deserved thumbs up!
After reading your following post about your past, I want to say that you are a testament to the greatness of men. To have endured those horrors and maintained yourself and your character as is clear from your writing, nothing short of miraculous. The miracle of MEN.
Paul’s a f&%$ing samurai WARRIOR for Men’s Rights!
I could feel this article coming from miles away….
Whoowhooo! finally! Nice job, Paul! The truth is only offensive to the offensive.
Abuse and manipulation are abuse and manipulation, no matter how well or in which direction or inside out the sheep’s clothing are worn!!!
And next time you make us sandwiches, remember to ask who prefers the dijon mustard.
That is all.
Yes, and iced tea is a given unless stated otherwise.
Dismissed.
I don’t want her making me a sandwich. I can make my own sandwich, and do a better job of it.
There you go!
WHERE’S MY SAMICH, BEOTCH!!!???
I made two of ‘em and you ate ‘em both, beotch!!!?
Touche. And true.
I don’t want her making me a sandwich. I can make my own sandwich, and do a better job of it.
Golf clap to you sir.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/golf-clap.gif[/img]
Do you know how you domesticate an animal?
You feed it.
You, Madam, are no traditional woman.
Want a sandwich?
Typhonblue eats traditionalist obese office cows for breakfast.
On a sandwich?
I really feel sorry for their husbands who are stuck with the sole responsibility as provider. Their wives have all the power and assign gender roles. I also often hear about how these couch potatos insist that their husbands also share in the housework and child care.
That’s not equality, that’s bullshit.
How do you get “stuck” as sole provider? Don’t let yourself get into that situation to begin with. If you are with a woman who doesn’t want to work and you dislike that, don’t marry her, get the hell out. If you marry her, you deserve everything you get. Now if she changes some time after you married her, quits her job, and becomes a couch potato, then I have some sympathy. You have to try to see this crap coming, cause once you are stuck its bad, and they will gut you in the divorce. However, I find its not too difficult to manipulate women, and with the proper strategy, you really can gain most of the power in this situation and force them to do what you want, since they are dependent on the relationship and emotional connection. If you play it right, they wont want to divorce you, even if it will make them set for life, because they wont want to leave you. And once you have set that up, you have quite a bit of power.
Men like what you are talking about are sheep in my opinion. If they lay down and take being sole provider and get shit at home for not doing housework and child care while their wife sits on the couch, they are just being lazy themselves and not taking the time and effort required to control the situation. And if you are incapable of turning it around, just get the hell out, because its just going to get worse. The sooner you leave the better, even if it means losing your house and half your assets, and paying child support for ages.
Manhood101?
Andrea should there and talk to professor pussy face.
Men don’t have any power in western marriage. A woman can wield her power at any time and call the male disposal service if you dare step out of line.
What are YOU going to do if she just wants to sit on her ass all day?
I wouldn’t get involved in a relationship with someone who does that. If she changes and gets to that point, I would make it very clear I will leave her if she doesn’t change. Then if she didn’t, I would leave, regardless of consequences. I’m not going to just tolerate that, but you have to use a little common sense and get to know the person before you get married and have kids, and put in the effort to make them love you and become emotionally attached and dependent on you, which gives you all the power. They depend more on the emotional attachment than on the money, so even though they can leave you and take your money they will not want to because they need you for more than just the money.
Generally to me it would seem counterproductive to tell people who are arguing for your side to “go fuck yourself”. While I agree that women should work and make their own living ( live with a SO and we split every cost based on who will benefit from it, most costs split down the middle for ease of calculation), but that doesn’t mean that a traditional woman who wants to take care of the household and raise children is completely worthless in our society. If the man makes enough money to support the woman, I can see him considering that a good deal, and both parties could be very happy with it. I see nothing wrong with the traditional family unit if you are well enough off to make it work, but since these days it typically takes 2 incomes to build a family, it is generally not practical.
Chiding traditional women for acting in their own self interest is extremely hypocritical. Everyone acts in their own self interests, including the man who wrote this. Also acting in their own self interests are the women who trap men into surprise pregnancies in order to suck them dry with child support, or claim abuse in order to get custody, or who claim false rape charges for any reason. Those are the women who should go fuck themselves. If the traditionalist women are arguing against these practices, why would you fight against them? Why would you insult people who are on your side and doing nothing to hurt you? Regardless of their motivations, if their actions are positive, aren’t there better things you could be railing against? Lets not waste our time yelling at the women who fight for men’s rights, and focus on the ones who want to take all remaining rights and power that men have. It’s just common sense.
What are YOU going to do if she just wants to sit on her ass all day?
Those supporting traditionalism must support giving men the ability to toss away a women that breaks the contract and not be screwed over financially because she breached the contract.
No fault divorce is a farce.
quit your job. what is she going to do if you quit your job. Plus she can not sit on her ass all day. Traditional women have kids and do not hire help to do the cooking etc.
The way I understood Paul was that he’s fed up with those traditionalist women acting in self interest are pretending to act in men’s interests and even call themselves MRA’s. It’s the equivalent of the male feminists who just want to get laid (probably the majority of them).
They’re dishonest and selfish. It is the traditionalist mindset together with chivalry that are making our struggle so hard. Without it, everything would be much easier.
Bob, it took me a bit of reading of the comments to understand where this was going. The one bit of Paul’s post that I would dispute is that the type of woman he describes does not fit my definition of “traditional woman”. If you go back to the agricultural era, the traditional woman worked hard; she had to, for the survival of the family. Pioneer families on the American frontier couldn’t afford to have a slacker in the household. Rather, the type of woman Paul refers to is a creation of the 20th century. Labor-saving devices, mostly conceived and designed and built by men, have relieved her of much of the household labor. Public education, funded by taxes paid mostly by men, have relieved her of a considerable amount of the child-raising burden. Birth control has given her near-complete control over the number of children in the household, and modern medicine has made it largely unnecessary for her to nurse her children through periods of sickness. For the most part, all of these thing are gifts to her from men.
There’s a family of my acquaintance who have four children. The wife does not work. Why not? Because she fits my definition of a traditional woman. She home schools the four children, all of whom are in their teens now. And she does it well; they take the same standardized tests as public school students and they consistently rank in the top 10th percentile. She and the children do all of the household upkeep. The husband’s job is to bring home the bacon and do the financial planning. Of course, he’s also a father to the four children and he fulfills the father role. But he doesn’t have to worry about doing dishes or vacuuming the rugs because part of the deal that they have is that it isn’t his job. They both work hard at their respective roles, and the four children are turning out to be exceptional young men and women.
That’s my definition of a traditional woman. If the wife from that family ever decides that she wants to comment on MRA issues, I welcome her input.
Now the other side of the coin. I was, briefly, married to the type of woman that Paul describes. She was under the assumption that marriage meant a life free of care of responsibility for her. She figured that she could spend her days shopping, hanging out with friends, and spending my money. And yeah, she expected me to do half of the housework after I got home from work every day. I divorced her within a year — fortunately, before any procreation took place. Yeah, that’s the type of woman who can go fuck herself.
But let’s make sure we draw a distinction between “traditional” women like my ex, and women like that mother of four who home schools her children. It’s a wordsmithing thing, but words are important.
I’m with you here. I see a traditional woman as someone who doesn’t have a paying job necessarily, but takes care of housework and child rearing, which is far from a useless or easy job. If the woman is lazy and doesn;t do any housework, why the hell would you have married her in the first place, and if you did, you deserve exactly what you get. My point was just that paul’s generalization will insult many people who don’t really deserve to be insulted. Generalizations are harmful, especially when you are insulting people who might help forward the cause of men’s rights.
I see a traditional woman as a woman determined to define all the traditions!!!
Here is the “traditional woman math equation”:
They are bad for a man somewhere.
They help to expose the feminist hate war against men and boys.
Paul speaks on principle, which is a good thing.
From a practical point of view, I think of traditional women as “useful idiots.” I am happy they are there, exposing the feminist hate war against men and boys.
“Chiding traditional women for acting in their own self interest is extremely hypocritical. ”
You might try reading the article. Paul wasn’t chiding them for being self-interested, he was telling them we all see through them and that hthey are useless.
And he wasn’t chinding them for their hypocrisy in presenting themselves as being anything but self-interested either. He was telling them they aren’t fooling anyone here.
“…..but that doesn’t mean that a traditional woman who wants to take care of the household and raise children is completely worthless in our society. ”
They are not worthless, they are worth whatever other even more useless housewives are paying their illegal Peruvian nannies, which last look was about $20K/annum – which makes these Stay At Homes not even close to being on par equals with their husbands. But they somehow think that even as household help they should get the lifestyle and rights of the lady of the house.
She’s not really arguing on my side now is she if she’s doing it to get the benefits of my blood sweat and tears with no EQUAL compensation (ie. my life is shorter due to the sacrifice and pedestals of chivalry). Any time chivalry is there, it’s a deal killer and means I’m trodden down.
When she’s arguing on “my side” while she’s dressed in sheep’s clothing, it’s really then in her best interest, not mine nor both of us equally. I’ve had many women get offended when I tell them chivalry is even worse than feminism (chivalry it props feminism and all female privilege and superiority – like those women standing up for us to keep them on a pedestal while they make us feel good for it…). They tell me how they expect chivalry but they take care of their man.
Well, most of them know that chivalry means that women are put first, and that’s not equality or our equal interest at all. A very few misunderstood chivalry as meaning equal respect, treatment and consideration with no pedestals (maybe one in 1000?). If they still don’t get it after I explain the difference, then “thanks for saving my time by shining the light for me to see the way to get the hell out fast.”
It DOES seem counter-productive to chastise a woman who wants to see a man’s rights restored to him. But, I suppose when a majority screws you over you’re bound to hate the entirety of the majority. People, male and female are free to delude themselves. And to insist that traditional woman doesn’t care about what her husband and sons are put through or will be put through is indeed a delusion! But, I’ll also say that when a lie is a lie, it’s just that…a lie. I could take offense at this blog, but I won’t because it’s untrue. In as much as I would be angry at you insisting “smurfs” are real, I’ll be angry at this. I’m certain men are aware, that there are a great deal of other men out there who insist their wives stay home and take care of things. And, as much as you fight for your rights, I would appreciate that you stay out of me and my husband’s right to decide what’s right for our family and children. YOU may not like my sandwiches but my husband LOVES them! And I will continue to fight for the rights of men, not for the likes of you, but for the likes of my son and husband.
And this is the classic “me and mine” reply I see without fail from so many women. Women are almost without exception only interested in the rights of THEIR men, and everyone else can just “man up” and go back to the meat grinder. If this is indeed what she meant to imply, then as always, the idea of freedom for ALL men is indeed lost on a traditionalist woman. Think back to the Civil War, and ask yourself how many women of any color died in uniform to end slavery? None! Oh, there were a few female spies, yes, as there were in WW1, but I’ve always found the traditional woman always happy to watch some other woman’s sons die, while throwing a fit when their own get called up. My own mother is a traditionalist and I barely speak to her, mostly because I find her hazardous to my well being in so very many ways. This is a movement for ALL men, not a movement for just a few women’s men. I’m with Paul, any traditionalist woman coming to these forums might actually care about her sons, brothers, and husband, but unless she’s wired in a more androgynous way, she won’t give a wet slap about any of us when the chips are really down. I’ve known a few androgynous men and women and they are indeed wired differently.
But for the vast majority of women, there’s the matter of Briffault’s Law, coming here is still about them and not about us.
Paul,
I don’t get this. You have kids. You must know how much work goes into looking after really young kids. And when women go out to paid work it doesn’t reduce the amount of work men have to do in life, it increases it – men now are expected to do what their fathers did as well as half of what their mothers did.
The traditional deal is that women give up some of their sexual power they wield in their 20s, and faithfully and lovingly commit their youthful beauty, fertility and passion to a husband, who is then expected to give up some of the sexual power he yields later on in life by remaining loyal to his wife.
What I do get, and what traditionalist women get, is that the deal is becoming one-sided. Women are not giving up their sexual power in their 20s but using it for casual relationships with men they’ll never marry – and then expecting men to make the traditional commitments later on in life. That won’t work in the longer term.
The response to this situation is a distinction within the anti-feminist movement. Traditionalists want to bring back the balance within marriage. Others want to go the other way by matching a female individualism with a male one.
Up voted for intellectual honesty. I am going to dinner and when I get back I will explain what it is I think you are not seeing in this as best I can. Thanks for your comment.
“What I do get, and what traditionalist women get, is that the deal is becoming one-sided. Women are not giving up their sexual power in their 20s but using it for casual relationships with men they’ll never marry – and then expecting men to make the traditional commitments later on in life. That won’t work in the longer term.”
It won’t work FOR THEM in the longer term – THAT is why they are concerned. Not because it won’t work for men.
“Others want to go the other way by matching a female individualism with a male one.”
You entirely misinterpret the MRM.
Feminism is about manipulating coercive (legal, state) apparatus to attack men.
MRM is about male autonomy.
I am familiar with, and I appreciate, your criticisms of autonomy as a guiding value.
That being said, the two are not the same – the MRM is not the ‘male version of’ feminism. Feminism is really not about female autonomy or sexual equality.
MGTOW and Game won’t work for SOCIETY in the long term.
This is true, but proponents of both generally seem to view society’s collapse as imminent anyway.
Male Autonomy and Female autonomy means that no one is playing their role. We’re complimentary. We’re supposed to work together to raise children, not autonomously hustling for money. If you need an example of where autonomy takes us, look to Japan and their population of old people and the few who are of breeding age, are too busy spending all of their energy trying to make money. With everyone working, who’s going to raise the children? some stranger who doesn’t give two shits about them?
I want the traditional wife and kids, but thanks to society and the lack of appreciation for men and our contributions, I’ve been denied that dream because of the government’s intrusion. It’s no longer a viable option and this is what brought me to the MRM. Things probably won’t turn around in my lifetime, but maybe there is something I can do for the next generation
But after that?
Oh, well….
I don’t remember signing on for Society’s sake. That’s not to say I haven’t given my support – I earned my way throughout my working life, I paid my taxes (still do), I took care of my own stuff and didn’t throw shit in my wake.
Going my own way means, to me, that I don’t work my heart out and ruin my own life for the sake of someone else. I have no children; when the opportunity was there, I came prepared. I’ve paid any and all debts I’ve had, in full with interest. I do what I do for my community, for the sake of my own life and well-being within the community, not because I figure “I owe.” I take care of myself; I pay for what I get out of life.
And so can “she”.
But you’re also not in this completely for yourself. You’re here to help other men, too, aren’t you? Otherwise why comment?
And if we can’t build a better society, than men of the future will suffer too.
I understand what you’re saying, though. I feel the same way – do what’s best for me. But I also have this drive to fight injustices and to help others which I cannot deny.
“The traditional deal is that women give up some of their sexual power they wield in their 20s, and faithfully and lovingly commit their youthful beauty, fertility and passion to a husband, who is then expected to give up some of the sexual power he yields later on in life by remaining loyal to his wife.”
Am I missing something here?
What happens to the man’s youthful beauty, fertility and passion?
The Traditional take, is that women don’t enjoy sex, lust after ‘hot guys’, or be tempted by carnal desires. Everything is a neatly ordered thing in that world, it seems, where everyone behaves as they ‘should’.
Actually, it’s remarkably similar to feminist idealism in it’s myopia and demands for conformity.
Mark is not a fan of individual autonomy, since (it appears) he believes people will not behave morally when given too much freedom. I find this approach a tad odd, since most religious teachings I know of suggest God gave humanity self determination as a gift, to be used or misused as that person sees fit…which is at it’s base the concept all religions found themselves on.
And I certainly have no reason to say he’s wrong about the way people act, since it’s plainly obvious that given the ability to act like a shit, people will do so with enthusiasm.
Ironically, though, his approach seems decidedly anti-religious in that personal choice (or personal relationship) is the very basis for religion and faith. It is this ability to say no that lends the individual ‘yes’ it’s weight.
Like feminists, Mark thinks that if we gave men the choice, too many would take it…
My own perspective is that women MUST be made to feel the effects of their actions before it’s too late to fix things. Coddling them even further will serve no purpose (since it will not change things) except to further enrage men. But then, that’s just me. And the source of my disagreement with his approach.
That said, I believe his perspective is both valuable and needed in the MRM.
“The Traditional take, is that women don’t enjoy sex, lust after ‘hot guys’, or be tempted by carnal desires.”
How convenient that this framing gives women the idea that sex is a benefit they bestow on men for good behavior. Even if it’s considered a duty from a woman to her husband, it still puts him at a deficit.
And, of course, the fact that a young man brings passion and youthful sexuality into a relationship is rendered moot in this relationship calculus. In fact everything a man brings to a relationship aside from material goods and the nebulous ‘authority’ invested in him by the church is rendered either moot or negative.
Hm…
May I add in some Traditionalist thought child-rearing is also seen as a duty and obligation and puts men at a deficit as well. Paying the bills isn’t enough; men must do more to express their appreciation to the one raising the children.
Mothers are also seen as the more important parent rendering the important role a father plays in the life of his children largely moot. Well beyond pulling out the wallet anyway….
Oddly, I have to say the traditionalist benefit to child-rearring is having a man around. ONE stable man, not the strangers using the single mom of today as a convenient pump’n'dump with no interest or investment in children that are not his.
How did it come about that women got the hero cookie for performing this “duty”?
“ONE stable man, not the strangers the single mom of today uses as a convenient hump’n’dump.”
FTFY
Also, change family law to automatic joint custody, no alimony and the divorce rate will drop like a rock.
All we have to do is jettison the traditional notion that a man’s only good for provide/protect and start respecting children’s property rights to their fathers.
Yeah, the postmodern feminist claim that fathers are superfluous goes against both common sense and against the data. The science that I’ve read says that the mother’s role is more important in early childhood. However, as the child approaches the teenage years, the father’s role becomes more important — some of the science says *way* more important. It’s the interaction with the father that prepares the child to go out into the world on their own as an adult.
Mothers who selfishly cut fathers out of their children’s lives are doing huge harm to society. It goes well beyond any legal question of rights. A society that permits children to be raised without fathers is suicidal.
Typhon, I give you a thumbs-up for your comment for attacking, head-on, the notion that sex is, or should be, something that women use to “train” men. However… (yeah, here comes the “however”, lol), the traditional deal (and by “traditional” I’m talking about going back to the agricultural age) was based on the average characteristics of sexual attractiveness between men and women. Amy Alkon, for one, has some pretty good data showing that, on average, one of the things that women find most attractive in men is their social status. Now, keep in mind that statistics and averages are just that, and what any one individual women finds attractive in a man can vary quite a bit. However, when considering the average behavior of a large group, Skinner rules; you get more of what you reward, and less of what you don’t.
Here’s what I think has changed. In the agricultural age, a strapping young man had substantial social status, and thus was in the same place on the scale of male attractiveness as the women he mated was on the scale of female attractiveness. Young men had that status because they were capable of taking on the incredible amount of backbreaking labor required to clear land, build a house, start a farm, and defend the household against external threats. Young women found this guy attractive in part because they foresaw the prospect of a stable family and a long, happy life with such a man.
However, today, manual labor is a glut on the market and has little value. Jobs whose main requirement is physical strength are disappearing. So here’s what happens: A young man of 20 or so has no immediate route open to him to become successful in life. First he has to get educated (not necessarily college; it could be school-of-hard-knocks education, but it still takes time). Then he has to establish himself in a career. This will all take until he is 30 or so (at least). So our young man of 20 has no social status. On the ladder of male attractiveness, he’s at the bottom. By contrast, the hot young women of 20 whom he’d like to date are at the top of the female attractiveness ladder. There’s a huge disparity.
Because of this, the 20-year-old women doesn’t find her cohort men very attractive. A lot of them gravitate instead towards older men with more status. This leaves our 20-year-old man’s dating prospects pretty grim; there’s a whole lot of guys his age chasing after a much smaller pool of available women. And he doesn’t have the option of looking at younger women because of the statutory-rape age floor.
So our young man reaches 30 and he’s still single. He’s got a pretty good career going and he has moved up the male attractiveness ladder, but his experiences in his 20s have put him off of women. A lot of his female cohort are single mothers, and he’s not interested in raising some other man’s kids, and anyway he remembers when those women turned him down or stood him up when he was 20. And he finds the 20-year-old women who are now attracted to him to be immature and frivolous.
This is the problem we face, and I have a conjecture that it is at the root of the MGTOW movement among younger men.
I have to say that is a really good idea about custody being split automatically. I hope that that one day comes into being. I would vote for that.
The Traditional take, is that women don’t enjoy sex, lust after ‘hot guys’, or be tempted by carnal desires.
yeah right! LOL
The sexual power angle isn’t the only way the traditional deal is one sided in today’s world. It’s a bad deal economically as well. Gone are the days when women were doing work that benefited the home economics tilting the traditional deal unfavorably even more. The home is now another unit not a place that consumes not a place where productive labor is performed.
For balance to be brought back to marriage traditionalists must ponder the economic realities of home today and not look solely at sexual power.
heh, I butchered this comment. The last sentence in the first paragraph should read: “The home is now another unit that solely consumes not a place where productive labor is performed.”
Hi Mark,
Thanks again for your comment. I hope you will take my dissent with the respect that is intended, but as I am a blunt person allow me to cut to the chase here.
When you say “What I do get, and what traditionalist women get, is that the deal is becoming one-sided,” I almost want to scream.
Things are not “becoming” one sided Mark, they are and have been as lop-sided as possible for quite some time; so much so that any notion of a traditional arrangement for men is an unreasonably risky venture with an ROI, for men anyway, that doesn’t even come close to being worthwhile.
In fact, it is a fools game and nothing less.
I won’t bother with an explanation of those risks and consequences as I am sure you already know what they are.
But what I will do is say that from reading your comment it looks like you are trapped in an “either/or” paradigm of traditionalism vs feminism where it concerns the family. It is as though you are only examining two options.
And give those two, neither are workable, in my book. And in fact, a cursory glance at the world around you demonstrates that neither are working Just look at the divorce rate and the number of still married people that hate each others guts. If that is overly pragmatic, I am sorry, but I don’t think nostalgia or romanticizing failed institutions does any good for anyone any more.
The feminist alternative is simply to replace the husband with the state. And we see that happening around us to the detriment of traditional marriages and, again, largely to the detriment of men.
But look at what you are seeing here in the comments as a solution. “Iron clad pre-nups” and other such nonsense. All these ideas are predicated on the marriages failure. They are an acknowledgment of just how fucked up things are. And they will in fact only breed more legal fees and animosity when it is over.
The only way to return to traditional marriage that works is to punish the hypergamous nature of women who sabotage their marriages . That means making it devastatingly painful, punitive even, for them to file for divorce.
See that happening any time soon?
You have to get that we do not live in a time where hypergamy has any constraints, at least not in the west. And as long as that is true, there is no such thing as a traditional marriage. Real traditional marriages were successful in a time where people only whispered the word divorce, and that was never in earshot of children. It reflects a time when there was a a great deal of social pressure to stay married.
But feminism legislated away and socially destroyed all those needed constraints. They are not coming back with a pre nup.
In modern times there is no viable legislative answer to hypergamy.
The only answer I know of is MGTOW. And that will not curb hypergamy for anyone but practitioners, even then it is a prophylactic lifestyle choice that excludes the woman along with the hypergamy.
Indeed, the only answer I see to returning to viable marriage culture is for MGTOW to kill off the social and legal advantage that hypergamous women now wield over men like a broadsword.
If I can add to this.
The other thing is that the traditional role is predicated on male expendability. Christianity may paper over that with talk of men’s authority but it’s still there at its core.
Feminism tore the paper off but slapping it back on doesn’t strike me as a solution.
Living proof right here of female assets to this movement. She has the same respect from me that any man would have for the same reasons.
Agreed.
Agreed.
If you are looking for SOLUTIONS, traditional women are not the answer. That relationship, whatever it was worth in the past, is lost forever.
If you are looking for ALLIES, traditional women are very valuable. They command the respect and attention of Manginas and other chivalrous idiots. When they speak, the world stops and listens in its usual woman-worship rapture.
When a traditional woman says “feminists are waging a war against men and boys”, the world listens. When I say the same thing, I am either an affection-starved loser or a misogynist brute.
We don’t have to like traditional women. But we should encourage them to keep speaking. I am happy to supply ammunition and encouragement to anyone who shoots at feminists. No matter who they are or what I think of them.
Paul,
I embrace a world full of MGTOW. Some detractors of MGTOW think of them as a bunch of guys who do nothing all day but play video games or drink beer while watching ESPN, but that is only a small minority.
Most men who are left to their own devices will be creative with their time and be productive. Some of the greatest men who ever lived were men who decided to go their own way and gave the middle finger to the majority of society.
“Behind every great man stands a great woman” is a myth.
A woman can still stand behind a great man…..
She just has to learn to stay out of his way and let him BE him.
Society seems to have lost touch with the idea that boys and men NEED to define themselves. Instead today we have society trying to tell boys to be more like little girls.
Paul, “hypergammy” – oh, you mean women who mate like alley cats, but far, far worse…
“Traditionalists want to bring back the balance within marriage.”
Paul’s point is that there is no balance to bring back. What you are calling traditional mariage isn’t even traditional . traditional housewives could slaughter and process a hog, raised their own chickens for eggs, kept a cow for milk to make thier own butter, canned everything and deeper in the apst spun wove and made the family’s clothing.
Running to a supermarket for food and crawling the mall for clothes is not being a traditional housewife, and it’s not a traditional marriage.
The subsistence farmer has been automated out of existence and replaced by the wage earner. The traditional housewife has also been automated out of existence, but where is the wage earner to replace her? There are millions and millions of them, but it’s all optional for them. If they choose to stay home, it’s not even grounds for divorce. Men are still culturally expected and legally required to treat what are essentially mistresses and concubines as legal equals, as wives. What is so tradtional about that?,
Your post is suitable for framing.
What most traditionalists fail, no, refuse to recognize is that the technological advances invented and mass produced by men have ended the usefulness of a traditional wife.
In today’s world they are simply window dressing; an apparition of that formerly vital and important role. And it is not reality they are speaking when talking about how difficult it is to take care of a home, it is a kind of retro affiliation with times past.
I can keep a reasonable sized home spotless in less than 10 hours a week. That includes doing laundry where I can watch TV or cruise the internet while the clothes wash and dry with no effort from me.
Children. Quite a handful, yes, but only for a very few years are they the “burden” of the wife. From kindergarten on the wife does not even see them during pretty much the same hours the husband works. And of course most men help a lot with their care after work.
This whole reverence for housewives is tragic and stupid. It is a ridiculously easy job that affords naps, television, and other forms of entertainment.
And to boot there is a feminist inspired public call for men to “ante up” and do more when they come home from real jobs!
This shit is far past ridiculous.
I respect women who hold jobs to help their families where it is needed most, especially in economic times like these. Kazzi is a great example.
But women that try to deify their role as glorified ne’erdowell’s are a joke.
Paul, good response. I also tripped over the phrase “traditional woman” when I first read your post, because to me that phrase describes the Agricultural Era wife that Jim outlined. It took a while to figure out that most people who use that phrase are referring to something more like the 1950s wife. But measured against the scope of human history, the 1950s were very anomalous, and I don’t expect to see times like that again in my lifetime.
Paul is absolutely correct in that industry, automation, and public schools have eliminated the Agricultural Era wife role. Now, I can see the possibility of a new emerging role for a stay-at-home parent: public education is falling apart, and in the future, anyone who wants their kids to grow up to be self-sufficient adults will probably have to home school. But the 1950s, when it worked to (almost) everyone’s satisfaction to have the wife as essentially a kept woman… those times are gone, and they aren’t coming back.
Agreed.
And this is why all men should study at least a rudimentary level of economics and risk management. The idea of incorporating with a person who can legally opt out of the social (and legal) contract/partnership at any time with no consequences but all the potential gains is ludicrous.
A dear friend of mine taught me something I attempted to challenge/refute for years that I now advocate:
Treat women as children until they prove they are adults.
Don’t give them respect (that isn’t respect) – they must earn it.
Don’t trust them – they lie and throw tantrums.
And since they aren’t your genetic franchise, you can always walk away with it never being abandonment.
The work place that men deal with today is much easier than the work place of the past as well. And family life today although easier than the past also has harder aspects, like the lack of community involvement and support. It is not easy raising kids and to do it in a way that would make it worthwhile and fulfilling you can not just hire a Peruvian nanny for 20k a year. Most people actually want to build relationships with their children. They do not just have kids so there will be more people on the planet.
My kids are learning German and some Spanish (hopefully lol). We learn history together and do science experiments daily. No nanny would do what I do for 20k a year. NONE. Maybe you would see that your claims just are not true if you had a stay at home mom yourself. Because it is really not easy to put a price on the relationships that can be (and are) formed when parents take the time and structure their family life in such a way that they can enjoy their kids.
What we really need is primarily an anti-chivalry movement, and only then do we get the full picture that we otherwise still gladly give up far more rights and life than traditional women and progressive women do.
And who will raise the children? You like the mass institutionalization of infants from birth? Yeah? That’s a GREAT IDEA. Letting the state raise children has worked out SO FUCKING WELL IN THE PAST.
You’re as nihilistic as any unshaven feminist screaming for the death of men. You are making the SAME CLAIM as feminists when you claim that men are the same as women.
No. We. Are. Not.
Do you want a future human race? Someone will have to give birth to that race, feed them, care for them and guide them to adulthood. You want a fucking DAYCARE CENTER to do that?
You are fucking mad. Think through your thoughts.
Hey I,
If you are so concerned about the well being of children, why don’t you ask women why they are destroying families, since american women file 70% of the divorces. Why don’t you ask why women are taking the children away from the fathers after the divorce? It’s women who are putting children in day care, even when they know they can live on their husband’s salary.
Why are so many women destroying the family and the future? ASK THE WOMEN.
A man can take care of kids and go to work, so can you.
Indeed.
How many single fathers manage to hold down a full-time job *and* raise kids that are generally better adjusted then the children of single mothers?
I have! My daughter was 3 years old when her mother and I got divorced. She is now a Senior in High School with a 3.75 GPA, and will be going to college to become a Veterinarian. In that time, I completed my U.S. Navy career (22 years), and when I retired from the Navy started working for a small company, which this year will be 10 years. I never received any child support this whole time. We live in my own house, not my parents, or any one else’s. Overall I’d say my daughter is doing quite well!
but are they more well adjusted then children of couples involving a tradition woman and a traditional man?
Also the only single men that I know who are raising kids leave a lot of the raising to other people; like their mothers (but that may just be my personal experience)
I have thought this through, and I dare say much better than you considering that your rationale is little more than a bunch of socon sound bites,
Oh Lawdy, what about the children?!?!?!
Can’t you do better than that? Fathers are better parents than women by and large, raising better adjusted kids. And that is only if they want children, which some do not. I support their right to that choice.
Also, I never claimed that women were the same as men. Again, you read me through a socon filter so you are missing the facts.
Go do things your way. If you make it through traditional marriage without a divorce, false allegation, stolen property and children that I will tip my hat to you and still go my own way.
“Fathers are better parents than women by and large, raising better adjusted kids. ”
It really is the truth Paul. Really is. My biological father was a bit messed up at first and could’nt father so he left. But life WITHOUT my step-father (who I call my Dad) and just my mother would have been disasterous to say the least. I just know it..my mother alone….would NOT hack it!
Atlas,
Dr. Warren Farrell’s whole book, “Father and child reunion” details just that – that men are the critical parent, providing stability for the child, into adulthood, using 200 studies to show this and that sole mother custody is worst option for the kids.
I think I’d like to read that.
Paul – I’ve gone ahead and awarded you one (1) internet point.
In less than 24 hours you went from proud supporter of men’s rights to calling us “fucking mad.”
What happened?
Oh yeah, you got CALLED OUT.
Probably you didn’t realise our position on traditionalism when you came here. Ironic that you posted on the thread titled “how deep does the rabbit hole go,” yet yourself failed to realise how deep the rabbit hole goes.
And, stop swearing in every other sentence. It’s juvenile and makes you look like a feminist. Possibly even an abusive wife if you get so angry over such little provocation.
Fuck you.
And I wasn’t calling you “fucking mad”, I was calling Paul fucking mad.
Go pet your cat. Make yourself another pot of tea. Leave us alone.
Put some hemlock in it, for flavor and effect.
“Fuck you.”
Oh wow. How can I possibly respond to such a cohesive, well thought out response?
Do you swear at your children too?
Are you so foolish to honestly believe the choice is daycare and a SAHM who does not contribute economically to her family?
Children need not go to daycare because both of their parents work to provide for them. Some options:
1. One parent can work at home via a home business, telecommuting, or even providing childcare in their home. The childcare does not even have to be the sort that has the same children at the home everyday from 6-6. There are plenty of people who need occasional care for appointments, to watch children while a special needs child receives therapy and needs a parent’s full attention, or while their parent works or attends school very part time.
2. Mom can work when dad is off work meaning a child is always in the care of their parents though they split full time parenting.
3. Grandparents, aunts & uncles, and other family members can provide loving care that is still in the family and completely different than what daycares provide.
4. If the children will be attending school one parent could look into employment in the district their children attend where they will have the same summer vacation and holidays off that their children do.
There are more options as well for those who are creative as many parents are who must work to keep food on the table and a roof over their family’s head. I personally know plenty of people who have done a combination of these during the time they were raising young children.
And before you bash such women it’s only fair you be honest about how you found the time to write your book while being a housewife. Did you have help? Did your children suffer and go a bit neglected while you wrote your book? Did you have your husband’s help? In any event you too were working while having small children, an action you’ve seen fit to bash on here several times.
I,
NOBODY will raise MY children. I have none and I will have none. Period.
You go fuck up your own damn kids. I’m sailing to Samoa.
Hey, “I,” if you are so concerned about the children then what are you doing about the fact that 75% of all divorced mothers are serial abusers who made false allegations against their husband during divorce, then followed that up with parental alienation child abuse and a string of ongoing abuse which destroys children and everyone around them.
If you even cared about women you would not support this rot 75% of divorced mothers do which results in the majority of divorce murders being caused by these abusive and child abusing mothers, and orchestrated by the parasitic twin symbionts of feminism and chivalry.
Isn’t the state already involved in raising the children? By that I mean subsidizing them. By that I mean reallocating funds from one adult (with few options), against their will, to another adult (with several options at each intersection of choice)?
While I agree reproduction is necessary to continue the species -although I’m forced to consider whether or not we are entitled to continue based on current and past actions- we should be honest here. Child Support laws were perhaps motivated/inspired by morality; I’ll even let that go without pointing out the intrinsic flaws in the paradigm. But they were drafted, passed, and are implemented by economic forces. When economics, a subset of the science of ecology, is applied to any human situation and with sufficient data, the outcome can reliably be predicted.
So instead of laying blame or attempting to shame one another, perhaps time and effort can be spent improving the situation.
I propose focusing on correcting for faulty laws and judicial systems.
I also propose, in the interim, teaching boys and girls the concepts of causal reality, proportional consequences, and risk management strategies. In this way, when they age and achieve age of majority, they have a better chance of functioning as adults.
I have been on to these female MRAs (what an oxymoron) for quite some time, and I have never really trusted them. Women possess the most coveted reproductive ability, not to mention all of the legal power to fuck men in the bunghole.
They talk about wanting a traditional relationship, but what are they willing to give? Love, affection, pussy, and make a few kids here and there which is great, but not beneficial in the long run. Why? Because they still have the legal system that robs men of their children, money, and assets. Men lose their everything that means something to them, especially their most treasured asset, which is their children, not to mention a broken heart, and a fucked up psyche which attributes to insanity and thoughts of suicide.
Men can never have anything to themselves, and we must always face the prospect of having a female scurry into our ranks, compromising our safety and judgement, and diverting general discussion.
“I have been on to these female MRAs (what an oxymoron) for quite some time, and I have never really trusted them.”
Some of the best, and most prolific, writers in the MRM are women. Some of them maintain a carefully androgynous persona to avoid running afoul of attitudes like that.
Ideas, not genitalia, are what counts. To me at least.
“Some of the best, and most prolific, writers in the MRM are women.”
Some of the best, sure. But most of the best are men.
I am with factory on this. For the same reasons he stated.
That being said, I could not agree more with your second paragraph as it concerns traditional women.
Traditional women are a problem in this movement. Women who understand and support MGTOW are an asset.
I agrees with both Factory, Paul, and Richard.
There is no doubt that people like Typhonblue, Izzey, et al , all add value and credibility to the MSM. They offer slightly different perspectives occassionally.
There are others that come here looking to learn, some will agree with us and eventually be supporters, others will want to keep their priveledged role and dominance over most men.
…….Then we get trolls in disguise. Screeching like a harpy when all the guys don’t toe the line on what this one demi-god errr woman tells us we should want.
We only need keep an open mind, exchange ideas, call out the hypocrites, and get more exposure.
Wait….. You are already doing all of that. Good job, you guys are fricken great.
Grrrr, needing that edit button badly.
Honest, I’m not a dumb as I type.
***Sticking “postit” to monitor reminding me to proof everything”***
I was trying to be nice in the last thread but I had to erase my first writing which was:
If you really understand the MRM then sign a post-nup giving up all rights to alimony and stating your firm conviction that your husband is a good father and should recieve 50% custody upon divorce.
I mean, maybe he’s staying with you because he’s afraid to leave like the other guy you mentioned. Being an honorable woman, knowing how the laws put him at risk, wouldn’t you want to know he is staying with you out of true love?
If you love someone set them free.
Otherwise you just another user parasite.
If you really understand the MRM then sign a post-nup giving up all rights to alimony and stating your firm conviction that your husband is a good father and should recieve 50% custody upon divorce.
I would have no problem doing this, and I actually think it’s a great idea. Why not? Why not make THIS the standard Pre-Nup that couples have to DELIBERATELY opt out of? Allow them to opt out, for sure. No need to infringe upon personal liberty. But make this the standard that applies unless otherwise specified.
Unless otherwise specified, this is the deal.
SingleDad – you’re a genius! Launch the Standard Pre-Nup movement. And then won’t you see women’s real motivations come out? Heh heh.
When you don’t know much, you talk too much.
Woof.
“If you really understand the MRM then sign a post-nup giving up all rights to alimony and stating your firm conviction that your husband is a good father and should recieve 50% custody upon divorce.”
Because we realise that family courts believe women are too stupid to know what is good for them and will quickly overturn many pre-nup’s.
Kinda makes having one pretty much worthless doesn’t it?
The ATTITUDE has to change that women are incapable of looking after themselves and when their life isn’t perfect SOME MAN MUST PAY.
Men are more willing to sign pre-nups than women.
Most pre-nups get thrown out in divorce court IMMEDIATELY.
Pre-nup lawyers started getting sued themselves.
Currently, there are no lawyers in NV that will do prenups.
PRENUPS are now a traditionalist LIE.
The time for that kind of relationship has come and gone. Given the current divorce laws and anti-male bias of the so-called “family courts”. There are very few men who are willing to risk everything for the “traditional” kind of marriage. In fact, there are very few men who are willing to risk anything for marriage period.
IMHO, if women care about marriage and families then they should prove it by demanding that politicians restore sanity and common sense to the laws pertaining to divorce and child custody. They should be the ones who are fighting for fathers’ rights.
Since I don’t see many of them doing that, I can only conclude that those who don’t are more interested in their own selfish pursuits. Why should men be interested in marriage when most women don’t seem to care enough to try and make the institution into something that benefits both parties in the relationship?
The parent leaving the marriage (beaking the contract) or leaving the area should forfeit the kids for starters.
Abolish family courts – they are criminal.
Criminal courts must be reigned in to true equality too, so they can distinguish between a good and bad parent without seeing the gender. Blindfold the judge, attorneys and jury and voice change the moms’ and dads’ voices etc. Then they will all want equality…, well except parasitic attorneys…
But whatever you do, please do it elsewhere. Your empty words and shallow, ignorant ideals, are not welcome here.
So ban me. If none of your readers are interested, what’s the problem? I’m here to learn, to expand my horizons, to participate in some of the most interesting discussions going on on the Web.
But if you hate that, if you are so convinced I am just a waste of human space (hey, at least I got to be human!) why not just clickety click good-bye?
I have lots to learn, Paul. No question about that. Do you have anything to learn? Can I help you?
No?
So ban me. Or take a vote! Let democracy decide.
Andrea is a total cunt – fuck off and die – Vote Lame
Andrea is all right – at least she’s trying – Vote Epic
How about, if I am a woman on this site, don’t make everything about being female and getting approval from men?
You get approval from men for being intelligent.
I’m not trying to get approval from men, though. I do what I do because I think it’s the right thing to do.
Thanks, though. I do appreciate the positive feedback.
If you don’t want my approval, tough luck!
You’ve got it anyway.
Typhonblue, you bring a lot of value to AVFM! You are awesome!
Nobody thinks that you are a total cunt, at least I don’t. You haven’t come out your face to us, but we found your comment in the “How Deep does the Rabbit Hole Go” article as a rude awakening to men everywhere.
Feminists are the nasty cunts we have to deal with, but that doesn’t change the fact that women are feminist by proxy. We are tired of being at the mercy of women and the system that enables them to bring men down to their knees.
Me personally, I don’t care what a woman does with her life, whether she is a stay-at-home-mother, or a fucking work drone, but don’t expect men who are tired of the dealing with the bullshit to take women in anymore.
Put down the mirror, and you are welcome to stay and learn. If I wanted to make this whole article about you, I would have put your name on it.
Andrea says:
“So ban me. If none of your readers are interested, whatâ��s the problem? Iâ��m here to learn, to expand my horizons, to participate in some of the most interesting discussions going on on the Web. “
I don’t know you, Andrea. I’ve only read two posts by you here, including this one. If it is truly your intent to learn and participate in the discussions, then read the following blogs in their entirety, including comments:
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/
http://angryharry.com/
http://shrink4men.com/
http://the-spearhead.com/
http://avoiceformen.com/
If you agree with the basic philosophy expressed on these websites and have something that will move the conversation forward (like use of critical thinking in your writing with linked references to peer reviewed journals, non-biased journalism, and other media) then I’ll be the first to defend you. But what you have written above, to quote Shakespeare: “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.” –Hamlet Act 3, Scene 2 You’re acting like an injured Narcissist who does not understand the difference between an attack on her ideas and attack on her character.
Recommended reading for you. It is about men and women in graduate school discussions and debates (which can be mapped over to what we do in our discussions and comments on articles at AVfM):
Discussion or Aggression? Arrogance and Despair in Graduate School
http://gradschool.duke.edu/gsa/publications/prescription/discussion_or_aggression.php
“….Some of usâ��professors and graduate studentsâ��need to learn to stop being so touchy, vain and self-regarding, so that we can listen to well-founded criticism without becoming defensive. Others need to learn to become more assertive and how to stand their ground when their views come under pressure. We all need to care more about formulating our thought precisely and less about the impression we make on others. Finally, we should learn to distinguish between an attack on our ideas and an attack on our person. This would be easier if we also learned how to engage in free and hard-hitting debate without being unduly aggressive and domineering, and without silencing others.”
Women who come here to A Voice for Men already have a couple of strikes against them, but (surprise!) many of our best-loved commentators and advocates are women (like Dr. Tara Palmatier) or Connie Chastain on False Rape Society. If you want a voice (and to gain respect), you’ll have to earn it by writing something pertinent that actually moves the conversation forward. If you want to be rejected, keep up with the narcissistic display and borderline-like splitting shown in comments like:
” So ban me. Or take a vote! Let democracy decide.
Andrea is a total cunt � fuck off and die � Vote Lame
Andrea is all right â�� at least sheâ��s trying â�� Vote Epic”
As for me, I don’t care if you’re here or not, and I’m not going to vote for you either way, because you haven’t given me anything to work with besides self-regarding sarcasm. Leading with “snarky” comments here that can even be slightly construed as anti-male or pro-feminist is like chumming Great White Shark infested waters. And the Shark Men around here just love to feed.
Paul has written a few philippics on A Voice For Men and elsewhere, and while I don’t always agree with everything he says or does, I DO believe in the work he and the other men (and previously mentioned women) are doing. As for you, if you’re looking for support and validation of your views, judging by your comments and the responses of others, you won’t find it here. There should be no need to ban you, you can simply choose not to participate. The test: Paul wrote a “Mission and Values” statement for A Voice For Men which is linked at the top of the page. Read it. If you agree with the mission and values statement, then write comments that are aligned with your agreement. If you don’t agree with the mission and values as stated, then simply leave. There’s no point in wasting your time or ours.
Outstanding equanimity.
Excellent advice.
Andrea, you have gotten off on the wrong foot. And now you are kicking and yowling because a few men called you out on it.
Yes, indeed, you have lots to learn. And you still can learn from us.
Why don’t you just ease that wrong foot out of your mouth, give your jaws a chance to heal, and leave the keyboard alone while you read without adding comments for the next few weeks?
I’ve done that time and again, when I said something that kicked off a firestorm, and I learned from it. I don’t have a cat, but I did cuss at the computer screen with my voice instead of pounding out ill-considered, inflammatory diatribes on the keyboard.
If you really want to see where we’re going, sit back and watch rather than kicking the driver.
Andrea: I am not going to vote on that. This isn’t a popularity contest, and I am not the site moderator, so whether or not you should be banned is not for me to decide. Since you seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot, let me see if I can give you a few tips. I hope you accept this in the spirit in which it was intended.
I will tell you up front that I don’t agree with everything that I see written here. That isn’t the point. If I wanted an echo chamber I would go elsewhere. You may find some of the language, and some of the sentiments being expressed, off-putting. I can see how a woman would get a visceral reaction to some of the things that are said here about women.
What you have to realize is that a certain amount of what takes place here is a form of psychotherapy. A lot of men here were taught the notion of inherent female superiority when they were growing up. Now that they have taken the red pill, to use the parlance here, there is a certain process that must be gone through. They must learn to take women off the pedestal. That’s difficult, and anger is an inherent part of the process. Men are are in various stages of the realignment process, and at any given time some of them are going to be in that anger phase. This is one of the very few places in our society where men can express that anger and not face personal and/or professional consequences. Sometimes you just have to let them vent.
The MRA movement is still pretty raw in defining its overall philosophy and goals. There are an awful lot of different views flying around, and that’s one of the things that’s interesting about the MRA movement. Much better to be in a group that’s wide open to new ideas and argument, as opposed to the stagnant intellectual cesspool that feminism has become. It’s a lot more fun too.
@ Cousin Dave: “A lot of men here were taught the notion of inherent female superiority when they were growing up. Now that they have taken the red pill, to use the parlance here … They must learn to take women off the pedestal. That’s difficult, and anger is an inherent part of the process. Men are are in various stages of the realignment process, and at any given time some of them are going to be in that anger phase.”
I’ve got to laugh! Not at you or what you just said, but at the way it echoes the first-wave feminist rhetoric from the Sixties.
We are going through the same phase, aren’t we? Our awareness is being roused, our consciousness is being raised, and we are feeling and expressing emotions long-banned to us.
It’s about time. It’s our turn. If you don’t like it, ladies, duck!
We are going through the same phase, aren’t we? Our awareness is being roused, our consciousness is being raised, and we are feeling and expressing emotions long-banned to us.
Good retort BeijaFlor.
And Izzey only “ducks” when tacking in the wind.
Beija, exactly. And I’ll throw something else in: in most cases, I think the guys who are feeling those things aren’t doing so because some vaguely defined “matriarchy” has insulted them. They are feeling it because the social notion of female superiority has impacted their lives personally and drastically. See all the stories at Shrink4Men of guys who were driven to near suicide by gender-feminist-enabled harpies, and the only answer they ever got from supposed family and friends was “suck it up, be a man!”.
Many golf claps on these posts. Well done!!!
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/682.gif[/img]
“Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.”
Take a good look at that quote Andrea. That is your fate on this and any other MRA site until you start thinking about what you write.
I tend to think of it as GOOD cop, BAD cop… get it?
If you fall for either, you are screwed.
And the crowd chants MGTOW!!! Paul, this is a steller piece worthy of stone carving. Now if you’ll excuse me I have a shrine to build LOL
Two tablets of stone, even copied and carved on the US Supreme Court building…
Oh goodness. There was a point, and a good one, buried in that rant. Not that it matters, its Pauls site, but he kinda sorta wandered into territory he discourages others from wandering into….nevertheless, its really a crucial point he is making, about the faux comfort, and complicated layering of female “support” for MRM issues.
Im not offended by language but sheesh man, you sound like a 20 year old high school layabout with all the fucking this and that. I wish you’d have not made such an important point, and ruined it with such a tone and tenor. The point actually deserves deeper exploration than Ive even seen it given on any MRM site. The point cuts straight into what blocks, for example, the church from being any kind of force for ggod for men, because the women have natural cover built in….they say OF COURSE we love men etc etc……Paul you are exactly correct, though the manner stated is simply beneath ANY level of dignity a man should have….and NO…that has nothing to do w/ being a white night or defending anyone…its just “good business”. I get the shrill nature of the battle, but the points above are lost in the lexicon violence….Im quite sure the masses here will disagree, because it elicits feelings that are craved, vicarious feelings. I thought we were here for advocacy not therapy
“. I thought we were here for advocacy not therapy”
Why can’t it be both?
“but he kinda sorta wandered into territory he discourages others from wandering into”
Actually, I am more prone to discouraging people from claims they can’t or won’t support with facts, like what you said there.
And so sometimes I sound different than you would approve of, uh, oh yes, Chris, is it?
I figure I should at least know the name of someone trying to direct me on how to express myself. But you might want to consider one thing Chris old boy. My acting like a 20 year old high school layabout flooded the site with visitors and prompted a very lively discussion.
Could I have done that without all the F Bombs? Fucking A right I could have.
Didn’t want to. Deal with it.
Chris, buddy, there are times when sweet-and-reasonable has run its course. Better that Paul blows the safety-valve of the pressure cooker and spatters soup on the ceiling, rather than have the lid blow off the lugs of the pot so the shrapnel wrecks the whole kitchen.
Paul mentions, later on in this comment thread, a pair of articles in which the first one was intentionally inflammatory and raised a fire-storm. The next one was reasonable, instructive and fully explanatory, and it got about one-fifth as much commentary.
Pure stereotyping is never good for anything, thats what this article is.
I’ll say nothing more than I’m shocked at this, it does nothing for the cause.
Traditional women do nothing for the cause, except lie about marriage and expect a pussy pass.
The last thing the MRM needs is men who shrink from bold statements, straight language and resolute judgment on feminist bullshit.
Paul is one of the few guys who doesn’t waver – and he is doing plenty for the cause, at least as far as I see it.
When more guys start talking this plainly in public – just a few – this war is won. False politeness to women is nothing more than deference to massa. Tell them exactly what you think of their behavior, and call them on it if it’s bad. My only caution is that you get your mind off it from time to time, because the behavior of Western women is so atrocious – so cynically self-interested and coldly exploitative of human weakness – that to call on every atrocity wouldn’t leave you time to breathe.
My only caution is that you get your mind off it from time to time, because the behavior of Western women is so atrocious – so cynically self-interested and coldly exploitative of human weakness – that to call on every atrocity wouldn’t leave you time to breathe.
With all due respect, mongo-
It has traveled well beyond the club of Western women.
I applaud everything else you said here.
Izzey
Totaly agree
I wrote a comment to the Dads on the air article. They are well meaning and have done wonderful work supporting fathers but overall they are ignored. Angry Harry is dead right! Only by getting in peoples faces does change come about. Paul is right traditional marriage is dead no fault divorce killed it. No amount of hand wringing will cause it to rise from the dead. Remember any women (traditionalist or not) has the power to pull the plug anytime whereas men dont (well not without penalty). While such a condition exist nothing can change.
If your a women read the literature and educate yourself but don’t limit your comments to MRM sites add your two bits to newspaper articles and other online sites (I particularly like ridiculing and demolishing white knights and manginas puffed up comments and arguments).
However you will find there is a powerful (hidden) censorship at work.
Don’t dispair the volume of comments is starting to break down the walls. A visit to the local court for the DV session is also enlighting you will see a parade of broken, confused and shellshocked men being led like lambs to the slaughter. While their well coached wives/girlriends tell the judge they are “scared”. True there are some cases (on both sides of the fence) that are genuine and somewhat heartbreaking but most cases are bullcrap and a travesty of justice (I’m in Australia no different elsewere it seems).
1,000,000 thumbs up.
Well, I can’t please everyone. I have always written it like I see it. And I hope I never give in and change that.
If you do…I’m leavin’
Sir, I quote Winston Churchill:
Never, never, never, never, never, NEVER give up.
@ Mr. J,
er, surely you meant to say “Pure stereotyping is never good for anything, when it is applied to women, but is perfectly fine when applied to men” right?
And for that you’re clueless.
Besides, how the hell could you characterize this piece as being stereotyping in any way?? It addresses the “traditional woman” not women in general.
Stereotyping is what feminists excel in, like when they brand all men as rapists. It’s their favorite pastime.
“perfectly fine when applied to men, right”
Please tell me where you found I said that.
A point not stated yet, is that most of us know already that the “happily” married woman is all for men’s rights and equality but is just one temper tantrum or just one fling away from being unhappy and subsequently presenting their pussy pass in the court to take everything. At that point, they can still think they are noble because they have convinced themselves what a “creep” the soon to be X is and he deserves it. That is why it is difficult to believe a word they say. Perhaps if they were actively lobbying congress or protesting in family court and getting thrown in jail for contempt, we could believe there is some sincerity and perhaps some appreciation for there total lack of any awareness.
My last sentence is a little off…. LOL I’ll try again:
Perhaps if they were actively lobbying congress or protesting in family court and getting thrown in jail for contempt, we could believe there is some appreciation for what is it all about.
I will go further and say that any woman who has stood by her man at a time when his circumstances looked dire has earned the right to call herself an MRA. I’ve seen plenty of wives who stuck with their husbands when he was unemployed, or ill, or recovering from an accident. An older female relative of mine nursed her husband through colon cancer for two years, dividing all of her waking hours between taking care of him, and working as much as she could to keep the lights on. In the last few months, it became clear that it was terminal. She was by his side almost constantly, skipping meals and pouring all of their money into keeping him comfortable, until the bitter end. It’s a year later and she’s still working to pay the medical bills, but she’s told me that if paying those bills is the last thing that she can do for her husband, that’s what she will do. She inherited nothing except a modest house because all of their money went into paying those bills, but I know she’d gladly give up every last dime if it would somehow get him back.
Awe so sweet. I have never done anything as long as that, but I would for my husband.
I hope that I do not have to though. The two things in my past that come close (though not very) is that he was unemployed for some months before our first born was born and when she was born. It was great though, we were worried as hell and thinking we would have to go on welfare but it turn out to be one of the best times in the world. Just being able to spend so much time with him and he helped me all through labor was such a help and when the baby came he was a godsend.
I was also jobless at this point because I quit thinking I would be a stay at home mom and he quit his job for another job (because it was better pay and I wanted him to make more money since we were going to have a baby). So he quit sort of for me, also the new job was in England and I have family there so I wanted to move there.
Then he fell and hit his head (early in the pregnancy). Just before he was supposed to start the new job (about a month before). And he lost his memory, it was a terrible time, but I learnt so much about him. Because it was a very raw version of himself and he spoke about his fears and when I had to explain to him .. his life, our life about the job in England he was SO surprised that he did that.
He cried and he looked up the companies website and he was like: I would never want to work there. He was surprised that he gave up his job in a field he liked just for more money in a company he would hate. But we already gave notice and they had actually hired his replacement at his old company.
So we went to England and on the first day I went to his boss and quit his job for him. I told them I was pregnant and even though my husband wants this job I will leave him if he takes it because I do not want to move to England. I know it sounds weird but he would not have done it on his own and I knew he would hate the job. And worse case I thought I could run a business that I had started some time before… but that did not work out.
But yea I know my husband would do the same for me, and he has taken care of me when I have been jobless and I would do the same for him any day cause he ROCKS!!! But yea the scariest thing we stayed to together through was us not having jobs and him losing his memory. It is such a scary experience because at first his brain could not even keep the memory of a full sentence and I felt like I may have had to live with that level of communication for the rest of my life.
The doctors kept saying give it a week, but after a week still no change. It was just so scary, his memory did come back lol and he is totally normal now, but it was a scary time.
im sick and tired of traditional parasites and the men that want to “provide” for them.
idiots the whole lot of em.
men seeking to provide for women, a seperate socioeconomic class, comprised of fully functioning adults, that are fully cpapble of working for themselves, deserve to get taken to the cleaners in divorce courts when their traditional sweetheart flips the script on them.
im glad Paul is telling it like it is.
traditional woman??? do us all a favor and stay far far away.
we dont want to provide for you, we understand that you are looking for nothing other than a free ride, on our dime, we simply want nothing to do with you.
sure there are plenty of idiots that are willing to “step up to the plate” for you, but we are NOT them, look elsewhere traditional ticks, mites and fleas
u forgot noseeums and jiggers.
There should be classes in high school for boys to learn to identify toxic women and be plainly shown why marriage is such a raw deal for men.
A whole generation of young men flatly refusing marriage in the current climate will find their female peers clamouring for change once they hit 30-40….. Because those boys will have clearly stated all along why they refuse marriage as an option.
Hell showing boys that while some women are great many more are completely screwed up and feel entitled to all of his things will go a long way in knocking over the pussy-pedestal. It would put men and women on equal footing and there would be no choice but to actually listen to our grievances, rather than attempting to shout them down.
This one is a thunderclap.
Good point, traditional women must have been just as entitled. Just look at what men had to do for them? Absurd. That said, I do come myself from a more “traditional” perspective. When I mention this to women, that all they need to do is stay home and cook. They seem to love it. Shit who wouldn’t? But things in traditional roles were more polarized, lower class men were truly the dust of the earth (and of course still are). But if you had social class, the equation was more balanced, as long as you prospered… Now that is totally impossible, which is very sad. Nonetheless, I think the model of traditions was the model that nature itself provides by God. Men generally don’t like staying in doors all day, seated, women kind of do! Men’s powers are wasted on babies, women’s are harnessed. Men are natural leaders, women are natural followers. Men don’t really mind being the outsider (at least I don’t), women more often cave in when public opinion betrays them , they are more often helpless outside of the group. The traditional models take the nature of man and woman into account. Society however has recently utterly destroyed this very very delicate balance, and with no idea of what they are doing. And shit is clearly going down, lesbianism or bisexual lifestyles is the rising trend, divorce is the ointment, and prison is the fate if you don’t end up dead after society applauds your own murder because your male. I mean we live in total chaos folks. Total chaos.
But I will defend the wisdom of traditional models of gender, not traditional society. Big difference, Because traditional society led to the building of the Matrix we all are trapped in now. Leads straight to materialism, and dehumanization. If you look into the ancients you will find this understanding is shared across all texts. Men could really do nothing about it. That is why they built these institutions of wisdom and knowledge to preserve it.
So you right, traditionalism isn’t probably the answer, nor is it going to work, but it is a source of knowledge, and it’s irreplaceable. For example the story of Tiamat and Marduk. Tiamat was a water goddess, who unleashes chaos on the earth at the end of every age. Marduk was the God who comes and carves up the body of Tiamat and recreates the age into a new paradigm. Any of this look relevant? It should.
There are probably free-riders who look to the MRM for their own personal ends. The only people who can do this are men first of all and 2nd of all those who actually give a shit about doing GOOD things in life. But leeches will always pop up here and there.
That said I don’t think we should go around alienating the little support we have. I frankly would not my woman to work for anyone else but me. Why should she work for some other guy’s company? Work for mine! And do it for free! I prefer women unemployed to anyone but the relationship I have with her, It should consume her total devotion and loyalty. If she works for someone else outside our marriage or household, is it not making her a whore?
I dont know…my wrists and shoulders are always messed up from lifting and heaving heavy boxes where i work…I do the same hard shit the boys do….it sucks…noone helps me, cause they just dont…in order to work there you have to oull your own weight…god knows i wish i made more money, but a girls gotta do what a girls gotta do…I know many women who could NEVER do the shit i do….makes me proud of myself….but if a man marries you and makes more than enough to provide for the family and you can stay home and roase the kids and be a housewife and cook and clean and make him comfortable..how is that bad? I mean, isnt that they way its supposed to be? I dont understand again. my mom wasnt a waste of space…so what the fuck?
I have high standards, I expect equal responsibility from women. I also enjoy taking care of my kids, cooking and gardening. Why would I want a woman lounging around the house expecting me to pay her way?
It’s not always like that anymore. The simple fact is that men are being exploited by women and the system altogether. Men are no longer appreciated for the sacrifices that they have made and continue to make, and the very prospect of a woman having all the legal say in a relationship is something that doesn’t sit too well with men. We shouldn’t have to be at anybody’s mercy.
Women barely face the possibility of losing their children, and being a mere extension to the family by having to provide without having any input in how the children are raised whatsoever. Like I stated earlier, I can care less what a woman does, but don’t expect men who are tired of being fucked over by the system to just automatically act like everything is all good and dandy, and support a woman who supposedly adheres to traditional notions of family. It doesn’t work that way. Women such as yourself who consider yourselves MRAs have alot of work to do in proving to men what you are really made of. You women never backed us up when we needed you to, and men as a collective have gone in this alone for a very long time.
Giselle,
Your wrists and shoulders are messed up the same as the wrists and shoulders of your male co-workers. You are pulling your own weight, you earn your keep and you’ve earned your pride.
From my male perspective, I see nothing wrong and plenty right with the classic, Ward-and-June-Cleaver, Leave-It-To-Beaver way of life. I wish I’d had Daddy coming home in the evening when I was the Beave’s age.
But it died with the Fifties. Rest in peace, Ward, June … Beave.
Those days are gone. Humpty Dumpty lies a-splatter in the ruins of his fragile shell, and there isn’t even an omelet to be had out of the flyblown stinking remains. And it’s your sisters of The Sisterhood who knocked him down and danced on the shards of his shell.
Yes, there are “traditional women” who keep house and take care of the children, and maybe-even greet their man with pipe and slippers and dinner ready to serve when he comes in worn out from a hard day’s work. But they are in the minority, at least in my city; and as Bombay said (April 15th, 2011 – 01:23), even the most “traditional” woman is one tantrum away from taking her man to Family Court, cleaning him out, confiscating his future, and utterly ruining him for the sake of her whim.
So what the fuck? Exactly. Your mom wasn’t a waste of space; neither are you, from what you say. But more and more men are looking on “traditional” marriage as something like playing Russian roulette with a Glock.
@Andrea
Let’s be reasonable here. There are lots of men in the MRA that have been ripped off very badly by women after woman in their lives.
As a woman, you have to accept your share of the collective guilt
Personally, I don’t have a big problem with a woman being a traditinal woman unless she thinks that she’s victim, or is doing more work then men while being traditional. If a woman lives the traditional married womans life, and actually DOES keep the house clean, and cooks delicous healthy meals, keeps the blow jobs coming, and opens those god damn legs when he’s feeling horny, and budgets and conserves the money and a bunch of other stuff, then I have no problem with her.
But the only woman that I hear calling themselves traditional nowdays, stay home, don’t work, nag their husbands to put in around the house, even though he probably has to work many more hours and still be poorer then what he would be if she worked. She cooks by throwing together a combination of tinned, packeted, frozen, preprepared meals, and gets HIM to treat for take away a couple of times a week, and maybe a nice meal at a bistro or something once a week thrown in. She has fully auto washing machine and dryer, microwave, auto defrost fridge and freezer, online shopping and delivery, bill paying from her computer, her own car, usually with air con, power steering, automatic, programable ovens, coffee makers, all maner of appliances, more free time then any other class of adults ever to walk the earth, and traditional or not, she still has all the legal and social power handed to her by feminism, to use if she wishes, including to have her husband thrown out of the home on whim, and keep the house and everything in it, and get him to continue to provide her with the bludge arsed lifestyle she has become accustomed to.
All this technology has been provided by men. The legal system she uses against him when she’s bored with him, is also provided and enforced, by men.
The technology hasn’t made much difference to the mans worklife though. As machines do more work, or get work done faster, they are just expected to get more done. The 50s man who supported a wife and two kids worked an average of 43 hours per week. I’m betting the average guy that does that now works over 50 hpw. A road worker 100 years ago might have been expect to lay 10 meters of road per man per day. Now with all the machines and technology, if we still only had to do that…..life would be such a bludge…..lay those 10 meters, in 15 mins, and then play cards for the rest of the working day. But, now we are expected to lay kilometers of road per man per day.
The stay at home woman, has the same 1 man and 2 kids to look after, and has all those labor saving devices, and no more work to do then before. The extra hours leasure time she has is spent watching Oprah, Dr Phil, learning how to be a victim and hate men, as well as shopping, running up phone bills in gosip and chit chat to all her bludge arse friends. A lot of that conversation is based around competing against each other to see who has the worst husband, and has suffered the most under his oppression. “He leaves the toilet seat up” “Oh you got it easy….mine leaves the empty toilet roll tube on the holder” “Mine wakes me up for sex at 1am, when he comes home from his second job” After complaining about how their husbands want too much sex, and are pathetic lovers, and kinky and perverted…..they then move to the conversation to compete with each other on who has the best fuck buddies.
My problem with these so called traditional women is that they are a fraud. There is nothing traditional about them, and they are users of men, and seek to give the men that provide for them, as little as possible. The traditional women in the old days, except for the wives of the rich, had to actually provide real services to their husbands in return for the provisions they made to them.
I don’t even have a problem with the modern traditional woman, as long as she is not pretending to be an overworked underpaid slave. If she acknowledges her privleged position and respects the man that makes that possible, and men in general, then she’s ok.
Anyway, I, or most men here, aren’t like the feminists. Feminists say, all men are guilty. I haven’t seen any evidence that you are one of the women that deserve the wrath of Paul, and like he said, he didn’t put your name on it. Neither do I.
Looking for the standing ovation button.
Whether one agrress with traditionalists, I believe most of us support free choice.
You knocked it out of the park on several inequality issues.
Excellent response, but one thing:”As a woman, you have to accept your share of the collective guilt”…really? So then does reparation seem like a valid and legit idea? Collective guilt? Please. I feel no guilt for something I had nothing to do with…neither should anyone else. Should i be angry at all men cause at one point women couldnt vote or because a hundred years ago women were legally beaten? Collective guilt? Nah.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? Don’t come at us with your estrogen-ridden history lessons. And how has society prospered since women got the vote? Oh yeah… We have assholes like Obama sitting in office. And how the hell were you legally beaten. Were women ever hung, beaten, and lynched? I don’t think so. Where women held accountable for their own transgressions? Barely. Men were solely responsible for the transgressions of their wives.
This is the shit that we are all talking about. You females automatically go into your deflections when the going gets a little too tough. This is one reason why men no longer want to sponsor women. Your sisters, who mind you who many were housewives, said the same thing 40+ years ago. “Oh I’m oppressed, I’m being legally beaten”.
Ok. I’ll tell you: A few days ago, a video entitled “Dear Women” was posted on this site. The vast majority of site goers watched in horror, and picked the video apart, broke it down , bit by bit and expalined WHY it sucked so bad. One of the Main reasons was because The Men featured in the video had NOTHING to do with the sufferings of the women in the video…when they stated “I apologize for my gender”..we laughed and scoffed. That being said, I have NOTHING to feel guilty about as I wasnt even ALIVE 40 years ago! Hence, I feel no guilt for the way things have turned out for men, for women, for children…I did NOT do it. What I would like to do now, is HELP change things. Make things better for everyone. So, the collective guilt shit wont work on me…and as for when have I been lynched or beaten? Never, im quite fortunate to have been born free on this side of the globe, but dont try and tell me for a second that women anywhere never suffered at all… cause thats just not true. That statement does NOT make me a feminist, it makes me truth sayer.
Yet, here we sit. Everyone born with a penis held responsible for wrongs, real and imagined to have occurred before most of us were born.
Women that suffer in the 3rd world are your issue? Like in war zones where they compromise a high percentage of refugee camps? Well, could that be because the men are fucking DEAD? Fighting wars tehy had no interest in, conscriptred as boys 12 years old, 9 years old, or even younger?
What you miss is that men have come to the aid of others even when it did not benefit them personally. Often, they championed the wrong causes but, that was ignorance not spite.
Men went to Darfur, Somali, the old Czech Republic/Bosnia/Croatia/etc, to fight and die for someone else. Whether they were mislead or not is immaterial, they went because they believed their sacrifice could help someone else.
Show me exactly how many women have been as selfless.
Better yet show us what you personally have done to change how things are now. Have you written your elected officials? Petitioned and organized against the kangaroo courts men regularly face?
Sorry but man or woman if you DO NOTHING you are guilty, collectively and personally.
Nice that you come to an MRA site and complain that women must be suffering somewhere…….. while men suffer everywhere.
Women were not legally beaten anymore than at that time MEN were legally beaten, tortured and enslaved.
yeah I know…but it doesnt mean that they were somehow immune to all violence….men werent forced to marry ugly 45 year olds at 13 either. so what?>
How many women are forced to financially support an ugly 45 year old sow if they decide they want a newer model? Or even if the ugly 45 year old sow just decided she is interested in someone else?
actually, thats not true. remember the old law in england that a man could beat his wife so long as the stick was not wider than his thumb? That was real….i dont recall reading about a rolling pin a woman could lawfully clobber her husband on the head with so long as it wasnt heavier than a sack of flour…..
Myth
http://www.aei.org/article/100695
No it was not real! It was proven that that was never a law.
And Boston Common Law-makers also stated ” Aman may not (get this) beat his wife with a weapon unless it is to defend himself against her” Paraphrasing here but that was what was stated.
“….i dont recall reading about a rolling pin a woman could lawfully clobber her husband on the head with so long as it wasnt heavier than a sack of flour…..”
Giselle Feministing just called they want to know when you’ll be reporting back, they are worried.
How about this: “As a woman, you are going to get blamed for the actions of The Sisterhood, whether you were there or not. Just as we men are all painted with the same tar-brush, by that very same Sisterhood. You tell us to get over it? Fine. Go, thou, and do likewise. Get over it, yourself.”
I am no White Knight but I am considerate enough that I avoid being harsh with those who haven’t earned harsh treatment. Nevertheless, that is the situation; The Sisterhood has tarred and feathered the entire male sex. Women can expect the same treatment, in these parts, unless and until they have proven they merit clemency.
Personally, I don’t have a big problem with a woman being a traditinal woman unless she thinks that she’s victim, or is doing more work then men while being traditional. If a woman lives the traditional married womans life, and actually DOES keep the house clean, and cooks delicous healthy meals, keeps the blow jobs coming, and opens those god damn legs when he’s feeling horny, and budgets and conserves the money and a bunch of other stuff, then I have no problem with her.
I don’t handle any of our finances (my husband prefers to do all the banking and budgeting himself and I am perfectly fine with that), but everything else is true
I rarely blow my budget by more than $20, and I do little babysitting jobs for the neighbors to pay for my own hair and lattes.
I’m a full on housewife. My husband is required to do nothing at home. His time at home is to hang out with his kids, and even when I think maybe he shouldn’t be playing Grand Theft Auto with our five year old son, I shut my mouth and just let him hang with his little boy.
I cook everything from scratch which saves us money on healthcare and ingedients are always cheaper than prepared, processed food. I maintain the value of our home by keeping it clean and in good repair. Our children are well-mannered and polite and just generally a lot of fun to be with.
I do not drive a car. I use my bike or wagon or I walk. I do not feel our family should maintain two cars if I am not working outside the home. I am not a clothes horse kind of woman. Never have been. I have a limited and sturdy wardrobe that suits me just fine. I have six pairs of shoes.
I am not fat. I keep myself in excellent physical condition and I am extremely happy to meet any of my husband’s sexual needs. He takes care of mine, too.
I am educated and I read widely in my husband’s field to keep him up to date on what is going on in different avenues of research. I entertain his colleagues and friends and we have an active social life of our own.
I am not self-entitled. I am grateful. I am the opposite of a narcissist. My entire life revolves around taking care of others. I am not a parasite and I will die before I send my kids to a day orphanage for even one moment. When they are older, I will return to work (if my husband wants me to).
Right now, I’m a traditional woman. At home. Where my husband wants me.
All of this is fine and good but it doesn’t help men’s rights or advance the meaningful and important discussion that happens in a forum such as this one. There are websites that support and encourage the traditional housewife and defend the role against feminist critique that may be more appropriate to find support for your lifestyle.
There are many ways traditionalism can harm men and also devastate true cooperation between husband and wife and between men and women in society at large. I wrote a bit about this in my Conservative Misandry piece: http://avoiceformen.com/2011/01/27/conservative-misandry/
A disdain for traditionalism/so-cons is common here because of the reasons discussed in that article and many more. For this reason you’re likely to keep drawing the ire of other posters as FEMININE-ism and how it relates to men is the primary issue on A Voice for Men. Linda Hirshman wanting women to get to work is nowhere near as evil as Maureen Dowd asking if men are necessary. The former is a difference in opinion, the latter is blatant disrespect for human life.
Hear that guys? If it talks like a hoah…
Seriously though, Andrea, you really should hang out here and try to understand the nature of the beast you are facing. Talking about how real traditional women will give us blowjobs isn’t going to impress. I can buy a blow job for $10.00 (or less) on a street corner if that was what I was interested in. And when the hooker is done with the deed I don’t have to listen to her talk about a bunch of shit that doesn’t interest me.
It is like that old saying, men don’t pay hookers for sex, they pay them to go away when it’s over.
There is still nothing on your list of supposed benefits from marriage that I cannot get less expensively and with less risk from a maid and a hooker, and that is assuming I don’t want to cook for myself.
Honestly, I am a better cook than most women I have ever known.
The rest of your post is just more of the same. All you are saying here is that you are a low maintenance prostitute, and that is assuming you are not lying. I am sure your husband appreciates that, but it won’t get you much respect in a place like this.
Now, if you were to actually produce something…
Everything you are saying is transparent. You like traditionalism because it infantilizes you and makes you a ward of your husband with no real pressure to produce anything.
I admire the fact that your hypergamy appears to be somewhat in check, but it doesn’t change the fact that you have chosen to be less than you could be in order to have someone else out in the world doing what you don’t want to.
“Talking about how real traditional women will give us blowjobs isn’t going to impress. I can buy a blow job for $10.00 (or less) on a street corner if that was what I was interested in. And when the hooker is done with the deed I don’t have to listen to her talk about a bunch of shit that doesn’t interest me.”
Brutal.
Snark said:
“Talking about how real traditional women will give us blowjobs isn’t going to impress. I can buy a blow job for $10.00 (or less) on a street corner if that was what I was interested in. And when the hooker is done with the deed I don’t have to listen to her talk about a bunch of shit that doesn’t interest me.”
Brutal.
Not Brutal
Sums it all up in my opinion.
Women for the most part bring nothing to the table (outside of a few) but their vags.
What I produce is a happy home, an extremely high functioning worker (my husband) and three well adjusted children.
I think that’s a lot.
And I am extremely unlikely to remain a housewife indefinitely. I am doing this while my children are small because being raised at home by your mother is the best possible situation for all children (assuming mama is not a raging psychopath, of course).
I think MRA are totally wrong to throw out the baby with the bathwater here. Raising your children at home is a GOOD thing. It doesn’t make anything else you say irrelevant, but it is vital to the health of any society that children are raised in family units and not in institutional settings.
Who needs a woman to raise a child at home?
I think it’s great that you do your part and give your best to your husband and children. But the fact is you could shoot him in his sleep and drown your kids in the bathtub and claim that your husband abused you and you’d likely get off with a slap on the wrist.
The point of this site and others like it is that we men have NO rights under the law. We are falsely accused of heinous acts by women and their word is accepted by judges and police as fact and men are persecuted by the thousands.
The fact that you own a man-slave and treat him kindly does not make you any less of a slave owner.
So what have you done for your husband’s rights lately? What about your son(s)? your brother(s)?
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying and, for my part, would be happy to have a relationship with a wife like the one you describe… but I’m not taking my chances. Until some measure of real equity returns to family law I would never marry someone like you — no matter how much I think it would be a very happy marriage. Marrying a SAHW is a recipe for disaster in divorce court. The only woman I would even consider marrying, or even living with, is a career woman that earns as much or more than I do.
You are totally right girl! You do produce a lot for society. You have my support. And Paul is crazy to think that you do not need a woman to raise a child. A woman is needed, a man is needed and a community is needed. Any one of those missing and things just do not turn out right. I come from a country (Jamaica) where the vast majority of households do not have men and you see it so clearly in society.
@Paul -do not be fooled, I am actually more worried for your children now than you can imagine. I want to hug them lol. Please hug them. Hug them for me. I know it sound condescending, but children, and humans are complexed beings that require love and family and purpose. We as a society need to support motherhood and fatherhood and communityhood. It should give us purpose and so much more. Ever notice how your kids mimic you from as early as 1 year old and love doing it?? We require a type of purpose and usefulness to society and if family is to be a part of that then family life should not exclude either sex. You do need a woman to raise well adjusted kids, just as much as you need a man.
Andrea I support you. Paul I hope I did not offend you or insult you in anyway, I just really disagree.
Andrea,
Not trying to tell you how to parent or anything, but I hope you are aware that the “Grand Theft Auto” franchise of video games are designed strictly for adults only aren’t you?
If you just used the name as a generic example of a video game then
I of course stand corrected on my comments, but if not, allowing minors to play this kind of game is nothing if extremely irresponsible
on your part.
I don’t allow it. His father does. Does he not have the right to make that call?
Curious.
He as a parent does indeed have the right to make that call, it remains highly irresponsible and in many jurisdictions technically speaking it is a criminal offence usually punishable by a large fine.
Just because he has the right to make that decision, doesn’t make it the right decision in this case.
Know this!
Men and women are “only” equal in a sense that they are human beings and no further. As long as there is favoritism and discrimination, there will never be a such thing as equality. Equality is a communist myth that politicians use to sucker the gullible into voting for them. As for the so called traditional women, they can all buy a cucumber and go fuck themselves. There is no law that makes it mandatory for men to pamper these entitlement whores who are making a valiant effort to get in bed with the MRM. As for the young men (like myself) who see marriage as a raw deal, you’re better off riding solo. WHY? Because the average relationship these days consist of two things. CRYING AND BLOW JOBS!!! No self respecting man should lower himself to dog shit and chase these new age slut zombies who arrogantly called themselves “strong independent women.” They are not strong! They are not independent! They are bottom feeders who lie, cheat and steal from men without any fore thought.
@ Zuberi,
“As for the so called traditional women, they can all buy a cucumber and go fuck themselves.”
Some of these so-called traditional women are so tight-assed they’ll have problems with a carrot.
Then they can take ink pin and go fuck themselves!!!!!
gisselle said:
“but if a man marries you and makes more than enough to provide for the family and you can stay home and roase the kids and be a housewife and cook and clean and make him comfortable..how is that bad? I mean, isnt that they way its supposed to be? I dont understand again. my mom wasnt a waste of space…so what the fuck?”
no thats not the way its “supposed” to be, keep working for a living, period.
again she said
but if a man marries you and makes more than enough to provide for the family
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ tune out her words at this point
and you can stay home and raise the kids
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ translation: be a parasite
and be a housewife and cook and clean
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ no thanks well hire a maid with the money you wont have a chance to free load off us
and make him comfortable
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ until he drops his guard, then ill divorce the ever loving crap out of him
..how is that bad?
^^^^^^^^^^^ see above
Thanks Barbarosa,
I think Stu just answered my questions. I believe youre assuming that every woman who stays at home is a parasite fat ass bon bon eating cow who hates her husband and is a frump, an asexual bitch and loser….I was referring to the other women who stay at home, raise kids, cook real food, keep the house clean are gratfeul for their man and love him dearly and would never betray him…..
^^^^ NAWALT deflection
Could I get the Easter Bunny to leave one of those “other women” for me, out in the back garden, Sunday after next? Please, please, please? I’ve been a good boy … mostly …
@Giselle
You have a lot to thank feminism for don’t you. Ever notice how feminists get really mad at women like you for not worshipping the goddess and thanking her for the lovely life you have.
Yeah right. However, once again, it seems that its more than just the feminists getting mad at me…I looked into Wicca years ago, but it was just a little too gay for my tastes…
Neo-wiccan I have to assume. Or lesbian wicca. It is a sham since the feminists could not infiltrate the traditional wiccan being a hereditary faith, they “created” their own version.
Ok, Maybe this is what im asking….If women DONT expect to be allowed to as men do, and work where they work and all that jazz, THEN is it OK to be treated differently? Like then would it be OK to have a man open the door for me or Kiss my hand when we meet? Did you ever ” A doll’s house” by Ibsen? Smashingly wonderful story..the woman is treated like a child by her husband, adored by her husband, but she for whatever reason becomes bored and wants to leave and does…knowing that it will be incredibly hard to find work as a woman and all that…but her husband adored her, and called her his little bird…thats wasnt degrading was it? Kind of like Rhette Butler and Scarlette…he totally loved her and spoiled her and adored her,,,i just dont see how that is wrong…she didnt want to be a man…neither do I, but i want to be loved and adored, cherished and owned…so whats the problem..im so confused…
Sounds like a bad deal, but you’d probably get more action at manhood101.
@ giselle
no you dont want to be “owned” you want to be carried, that is simply your bait.
instead of telling a man that you want him to be your meal ticket, you hope he has some kind of domination fantasy and you play into it as a means to an end by saying you want someone to “own” you. we are trained in the art of decoding female bullshit.. it would be less insulting if you simply came out and said what we all can see
Carried? Moi? Nah. Youre mistaken…I said what i meant. Owned…exactly that. I dont need to bait and switch anyone. Im as honest as they come. You need to chill out and not be so suspicious of me. You have no idea what youre saying…at least no idea of who youre saying it to.
ok sure..
to all reading this… remember that there is a reciprocal relationship between ownership, and liability/obligation
gisselle left that little part out. this woman has essentially turned herself into a commodity.
WHAT?? and it’s Giselle. aaarghh!
I think youre envisioning whips and chains and theatrical acts. nevermind.
Do you have anything fresh to say on your behalf or will you continue to showcase what a trolling asshole your are?
fuck you.
*slow clap for the retard*
You wish!
you heard me just fine.
own = having to finance your stay at home lifestyle. you are an adult, who in the hell told you that you should be supported on a mans dime?
lol…. it seems women are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into equality.
not literally of course for the pc police
There is no equality. Equality is a communist myth that feminist drones use to mask their anti male hate.
You’re either strong or weak. Good or Evil. Alive or Dead.
i never asked to be supported! youre making assumptions again! nevermind it!
Good, you don’t deserve support and neither does the rest of these new age trollops. When society does collapse, the first ones to get trampled will the feminist parasites and mangina foot stools. Only this time, there won’t be any cops (white knights) to save your worthless ass.
LOL Giselle put down that shovel you’re digging yourself into a hole with please.
NEVER! this is how I learn! Im a newbie to this. Until I happened to accidentally click on Pauls videos one day on Youtube, I never knew this existed. Many will continue to dislike me, but I have to learn by asking. If I knew one of you in person, Id be calling you up constantly…but I dont, so I ask lots of questions…sorry if I upset you, I assure you this in not my intention. I need to find out somehow.
“If I knew one of you in person, Id be calling you up constantly…”
LOL-Yikes!
At least you appear to be trying to learn something new and are not easily put off, I suppose we can at least give you a little credit for that.
Awww….
Not even some whips, chains, or controlled orgasm play?
I am disappoint….
You could have made it sound so interesting……
Well, Giselle ma belle, flame is the name of the game, here.
You have indeed fallen down the rabbit-hole of Anti-Misandry. However sincere you may be, however honest you may come, we figure we can’t trust you any further than we can trust your next lawyer. We have, as witness, the scars we got from the last women who said “I’m as honest as they come.”
If you come up behind us and put your hand on those scars, you ought not be surprised when we turn and snarl and snap at you.
And it is a matter of survival that leads us to hew so closely to that Russian aphorism, “Trust – but verify.”
Im starting to understand that…its okay..i have thick skin when it comes to harsh words…i still stand by my original motto” i love men”……men truly ARE good.
my husband does not have domination fantasies; I do! And yes I love the free meal ticket that I have from my man. I just asked him and he said he loves his free meal ticket to no cooking, cleaning, ever changing a diaper, bathing or feeding kids and getting to enjoy spending time with his kids and by himself instead of having to worry about darecare, pick them up at day care and come home to piles of laundry and take out followed by a bedtime routine and a morning race to get them ready and out of the house to daycare.
Instead his life has not changed dramatically since having children and he does not have to spend every second of his time working. He can actually relax when he gets home. Yes you heard that right, I let my slave relax lol, I also cook for my slave and make and pack lunch for him everyday, I even iron underwear for my slave (cause he is a weirdo who likes ironed underwear). I also listen to my slaves opinion and often (but not always) even do as he says. I know I am the best master ever
darecare facilities? You wacky extreme-challenge traditionalists and your adrenaline fueled services!
Also, do you have the whips and chains and contracts? Andrea is (I think) being coy, so you can ease her worries by starting off. It might ease the overall tension and create common ground. After all, who doesn’t like the idea of being desired with a few sharp strokes across the bottom?
The problem giselle is this. Lets say you meet a guy thats willing to give you all that you ask. And he does, and he’s working his butt off, providing a nice life for you. Your keeping the house lovely and clean, cooking beautiful meals, and when he comes home you sit him down and ask if he’d like to unload his bags before you serve dinner or after. On Sat nights you go our for romantic candle lite dinners, Sunday you go sailing and sipping wine on the deck and making love under the stars at night. The problem is, that when……you might say if…..or never…….but I say when…..you get bored with him, and the fire goes out, and the lust is gone…..you then have at your disposal, a system that allows you to take everything, and give nothing.
And that is the problem with why woman who want what you want will not be able to get it……at all…much longer. Most of you can’t now, but the small pool of dick heads that are still willing to chance it is shrinking by the day, and it won’t be long until the feminists have rendered anything except a one night stand with a false name……to dangerous for a man to engage in.
Now, if the laws were…..no accusations carried any weight unless there was proof…..and if you want to get out of your marriage you get no more then 50/50…..under any circumstances…..and the man gets to see his kids as much as he likes…..as much as you do……and…..you have to pay your share for the kids upbringing…..no having them…and passing all the cost to him. In other words….if you leave the marriage……you get poorer too….and you share in the emotional burdens of a disolved family……and you don’t get to alter the deal by making false allegations…..they will be not even entertained at all…without proof. In other words….take away all the power you have to screw the guy over after you don’t feel the same way anymore.
Then you could have what you want. At least for the time you wanted it. It’s not going to be forever…….because that isn’t want women want…..it’s what the think they want…..at the time.
Ok, so all is not lost. You can plot with us to overthrow feminism, and when we take over the world, you’ll finally get a shot at what you want. Aint going to happen as long as those bitches are running the show though…..because they are giving you the rope that you will hang yourself with…..ultimate power.
As long as you have ultimate power, you will destroy the relationship. Why, because there is nothing to lose for you, and no price to pay. If you knew that if you want to get out, your going to lose the benefits that relationship provides, then you would work at keeping it…….as it is….when the heady lusty feeling is gone…there is nothing keeping you there. So why would a man trust you….why should he.
What was a sane decision for a man to make in the old days, is not anymore. Women need to stop asking, whats wrong with men, and start acknowledging the real reasons relationship don’t work anymore…..its them…..women. They have too much power, and have made it to dangerous for men. There is only one cure for this problem, but feminists think the cure is more radical feminism. The real cure is to throw feminism in the bin.
Anyway, you’re here, and seem to be on our side. You’re trying too, but don’t understand the problems men face and have yet……not fully.
You said, so what if woman don’t expect to have the same rights etc. You mean….like individual women. Like if a guy hooks up with a woman and she concedes that men should have more rights in the areas where they have more responsibility and all that. Well, sounds good…..but the problem is that the law does not recognize her agreements with the guy. She’s allowed to fall back to the feminist system whenever she likes. The only thing that willl make relationships attractive again to men is the total and complete absence of feminist control over relations between men and women, that means feminism has to go, along with all it’s legal rubbish, and power.
The “lesser interest principle” states that the person who has the lesser interest in maintaining a relationship sets its terms. The reason is simple: any possible fissures in the relationship will be perceived as more threatening by the party with the greater interest in the relationship.
OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH. Youre the f**king BEST STU! I heart you! I get it now…..thank you friend. :O)
So other than listening to Paul….what do we do now? I mean seriously…can we start an anti feminist political party? something along those lines?> He needs to get on C2C!
On the agenda, with many other things, is going to be a concerted effort to do just that. I hope some others will follow your lead and make contact with them, suggesting they get me on the show.
just sent ANOTHER request…coastproducer@aol.com mentioned your post as former editor at MND and your site, threw in a few words about human rights and the mens movement etc…perhaps they’ll have a look….one shot and youre in like Flynn Paul.
Stu your reply here is awesome.
Not once did you resort to put downs and swearing. I have always believed that to actually get through to some one that is capable of understanding then the thing is to stay on track no matter what and press on until they get it.
If they don’t you’ll always know you did the best and if they don’t get it then that’s simply out of your hands.
Clean conscious mate, – hat off.
Paul, you have a damn worthy article in Stu’s reply here.
Hang onto it a few weeks, then re-print it on its own.
you do realize that women who support this movement and support traditional marriages do not actually support the anti-male divorce laws right??
This has been the most entertaining and eye opening Article/comments on this site in quite some time.
Fucking Epic learning tonight boys and girls.
Wow.
Epic.
I know! its been rather entertaining and enlightening for me too!
Not as entertaining as you getting punched in the uterus!
Or as you in the nuts! what fun!
I am not sure, where some of you get this rhetoric. What I took away from his post is that regardless of what occupation the woman has “fuck her” if she does not stand up and say “this is wrong”. If a woman is not calling out other women that are femnazis and degrading men, sucking the life from men in general, then she is just as guilty as they are but atleast the femnazis are honest about it. This is what I took away from his post.
@Giselle
Those whips and chains sound fine don’t they lol. Comon, you know you want it. lol Unfortunatley, the feminists have made them illegal, even consentual whips and chains.
I dont need whips and chains when I see big strong man hands coming at ya… ;O) its an intoxication all its own.
coming at “Me”….oops
WTF?????
Look! im getting thumbs down again! LOL even when its not an actual mra response! LOL…gee i wonder who it could be!!!?
Yep, you guessed it – you got a red crayola wielding femmo monkey somewhere out there on your back.
Please monkey girl, you out there.. ?. please thumbs down me, I want it baaddd.
Go shave you odoriferous cuntok.
oooh, Cuntok…sounds like a cross between the Daleks from Dr. Who, shreiking “Exterminate”! in the direction of Males everywhere and a Cunt…a fiery monster! im stealing your word!
Guffaw, funny.
Take it and wield it as you please girly girl…
Hhhmm,, I’m still waiting for the femmo tetrapods to thumb you down.
I wait like Horton on the egg as I know anytime now….
theyve thumbed me down plenty…but its not always feminsists who want to shut me up. :O/
Well of to another afternoon and night in my boring hell hole. No, not talking about Kaz here lol
Getting out of here now
I would appreciate if some of you guys would stop attacking some of the women in this forum.
But then again who the fuck am I right?
Traditional values are the wife takes care of the home and children while the husband provides the revenue to sustain the family.
Yes I have heard/seen enough “supposedly” traditional women who still expect the husband to do a number of “chores” that are the soft jobs she should have done anyways as part of the deal.
The fact that they are even on this forum and speaking politely with complete sentences is enough for me. As I have debated with many a feminist on different forums and their responses have run the gammit of hysterical to a polite way to tell me to “F” off(and I hate women etc.).
(women)Understand please that their is a reason why my internet handle is falsely accused soldier. Alot of other men on this forum have experienced the same thing.
Also belittling Hestia at all will royally piss me the fuck off. She is a military spouse and a good one. Not that she needs protection or anything but she is a part of the Army team and the green gang sticks up for its own.
She got a lot of thumbs up. Military spouses are a special case because holding a military household together is as difficult as most jobs. That’s not what we are talking about. Not at all.
And another thing about military wives – they most certainly don’t question what men are good for, because the really live with the possiblity of having theirs ripped away from them with no waring. That appreciation is an essential part of a real partnership.
I haven’t witnessed much in the way of attacks on women as attacks on ignorance. Once Stu explained it concisely giselle “got it”.
They are heated exchanges at times. I expect a time or two I will run afoul of people here too (for reference I am a guy, the raven is often considerred a pest or just a dumb animal but is actually a pretty smart bird…. an analogy to the perception and the reality if you will) and, I expect to be called on it. If I am right I will defend my position, if I am wrong I need to be called on false beliefs inorder to examine them.
Hey, with every right comes responsibility. In case you haven’t noticed, except for young, hot chicks, and the rich, the rest of us haven’t really ever had the luxury to sit on our asses and not have a job *and* the responsibility of mothering our families. Maybe you’ve been drinking too much of the feminist patriarchy koolade that women weren’t allowed to work or something.
A traditional woman who isn’t rich is a working woman. She’s just a working woman whose main priority is her family, meaning if she has a choice, she’ll choose time with her kids over more time at the factory or whatever she does…but how often in history have most people really had a choice?
…but if you personally don’t want a ride or die type, that’s your prerogative. It’s also however, not our business.
I agree with your point.
However,
There are too few ride or die chicks out there and too many that just want a short ride, get half and ride again.
I think that’s the point of this article.
Maybe I’m missing the point then. There’s traditional women, and then there’s whores with wedding rings. The latter often call themselves the former, but they’re different types of people.
It seems that Paul is saying that traditional women are whores. This is what feminists are telling us too…that a woman who allows herself to be financially dependent in any way on a man at any time, is a whore. The idea of adults in a family each doing their part to support the family is all about who’s bringing in how much of the income, and nothing about the effort or the relationship dynamic or the family’s needs. Screw the kids, it’s all about the money, right?
Nicole-
Assuming no one else posts anything between them by the time you read this…
Count sixteen posts above yours here, and read Stu’s reply to giselle. It is not “all about the money” (there is much more to it than that)
He explained it in ‘layman’s terms’ so I think you will ‘get it’ (giselle was thrilled)
Izzey
Nope.
The point is that it’s TOO DANGEROUS for ANY MAN to MARRY a WOMAN no MATTER WHAT SHE THINKS entering the union. Pretty soon she get’s indoctrinated by her bitter bitches she calls friends, the media and those hairy feminist bitches who think they KNOW what is best for YOUR family………pretty soon the woman you speak of gets a wiff of that bitter fruit those angry BITCHES she hangs with spew and she begins to question her role, her marriage and she becomes bored.
Then that “TRADITIONAL WOMAN” becomes a “BITTER BITCH” who got half but at the end of the day…..
Now that traditional woman has become the bitter bitch who sticks her nose in another marriage or relationship and it all starts over again.
That’s what feminism has brought us.
Bitter bitches and broken families and a police state bent on making being a MAN a crime.
You are quite correct. In a few days I will follow this article up with a less gruff version that may make more sense to you, or at least be less offensive.
There is a reason I do this.
To give you an example a few months ago I wrote a short article saying that because of rape shield laws I would vote to nullify if on a jury at a rape trial.
This site went NUTS with activity. The “Thinking Housewife” got her panties in a twist and wrote more than one article about it on her blog. Many came here to protest and it was a short but very intense ride.
A couple of weeks later I wrote a dispassionate 3,500 word piece that amounted to the same ideas as the first one, only it was much more methodical and detailed.
On the scheme of things it was no more read than most articles here. In fact, here are the read counts and comment counts on both.
1st (short, angry, abrupt) 8,741 views 184 comments
2nd (reasonable, dispassionate) 2,830 views 26 comments
They both said the same thing in different ways.
And that applies here. Fact is, even the most well intentioned traditional wives have a deal that many reasonable men would now look at and say “no thanks” for very sound reasons; most of them centering around the fact that there is very little a non working woman can provide a man that he can’t get in less complicated and less expensive ways.
And there is a valid comparison to prostitution to any woman who is being “kept,” even those that give housekeeping a lot more prestige and worth than it deserves.
Whether you agree with this or not it is a discussion worth having. There is plenty to be said on both sides of the fence, but the trick is in getting anyone to really discuss it to begin with.
In this world, the only way you really get people to talk in any meaningful way is to get in their face. Double, no quadruple the truth in that where it concerns men’s issues.
Advocating for men MANDATES some offense to people. The intelligent ones we want to reach will look past the thunder and examine the evidence fairly, but you have to wake them up first.
Thanks for your comment.
Well, if the objective was just to offend people and stimulate discussion, then it did the job.
I was just wondering if what this post meant was that you only wanted feminist women posting here or maybe only one night stand types or something.
Everybody’s welcome to their opinion on the internet, so some things aren’t a matter of right or wrong, but welcome and unwelcome. There are so many perspectives, and really so many traumatized men out there that I could understand if plausibly, family type women were unwelcome somewhere.
Some guys consider anything more than unattached sex exploitive. It’s not my business to force them to think somehow else. I just like to know whether or not I’m stepping into hostile territory so I know if actual discussion is welcome or if my comments are just going to be wasted, or perhaps inappropriate in that they could be perceived as shaming or pressure.
Sometimes people are better helped by staying out of their way than getting involved.
Sorry, but “staying outta the way” is the same as silencing the truth by saying “shut up and don’t tell the truth, it’s disturbing my entitlements.”
I had a ” traditional” wife once. She left me two weeks after I got laid off. I put a comment in the DV fakers article not to long ago. Guess what my inspiration for that comment came from!
Everything is gravy for a traditional wife until there is a bump in the road. Thats when their metal is truly tested. They often fail.
Yes they often fail and they have no one to blame but themselves. It’s no secret that marriage is a raw deal for men. That is why the marriage strike will continue and why men in sheer numbers should continue to ride solo.
Not often J3DIforce1. Always!!!
I think that it is about time that we brought these arguments to a close. This is a very awesome article, and we have all gotten our points across thoroughly.
I honestly don’t give a fuck if wifey chooses to stay at home and raise MY children, but my main beef is that men are tricked in to thinking that they have a say in the relationship when they don’t, and men are expected to provide for women that will end up using the system to fuck them over, keeping them from their children, breaking their hearts, and driving them to the point of insanity. That is my problem, that is what pisses me off to a T.
I am all for choice as long as wifey does her bid, but in this day and age, women seem to only care about what benefits them. They are all about advancing themselves at the expense of everyone else.
We are way past the threshold of re-establishing the traditional relationship between a man and a woman, as feminism has opened our eyes to the darkest machinations of the female psyche. That is over and done with. NO MORE. I don’t mind having a “Ride or Die” type chick who will TRULY kick it with me to the end, but that is no longer an option for most, if not, all of us.
It is an option if you’re willing to give up the Hollywood ideal of what a woman is supposed to look like, and maybe consider going outside your ethnicity to widen your pool.
You can’t live like a sheep and get wolf rewards.
And you, madam, can’t live like a wolf and get sheep rewards.
When a man sees how thoroughly the wheel is rigged against him, who are “You” to try and shame him into playing anyways?
You, personally, Nicole, are not the problem. I’ve read enough good posts from you, that I’d even say you’re participating in the solution. The problem is that the game is so thoroughly rigged against the man, that we equate it to playing Russian roulette with a Glock – and being stuck with the first three turns.
Women have the full faith and force of the Guns of Government behind them. They are playing with a stacked, marked deck, and the VAWA (or is that the WAVA, “Women Are Victims Act”?) trumps everything.
Maybe you really are different. But when you look like a wolf, you will be hounded like a wolf. Nothing personal.
Do you know what happens to people who do that? Seriously… know before you talk. Because you will not understand why people are saying what they are if you are as ignorant as newborn, not as curious and have a ego of an average woman.
Ah, wolves in sheep’s clothing, huh? I can think of three that qualify as just that – 1- feminists 2- chivalrists 3- traditional wives
The last thing any of them want is equality.
Why do you think 75% of divorced traditional wives have made false abuse allegations, committed parental alienation child abuse and all the other abuse that goes with that? It should be no surprise that the majority of women murdered in divorces are murdered because of all that nonstop abuse, while equal treatment of men is what these traditional housewives so violently object to, right along with feminists. That 75% do after all come from the pool of traditional housewives, and that 75% aren’t all or even mostly feminists, though they want the same thing feminists want – male subjugation.
Paul,
I have been contemplating this issue recently, especially after reading recent articles at In Mala Fide.
If men go their own way indefinitely, and take advantage of the system by using game, will we really be prepared to improve humanity after the inevitable collapse/depression?
If we do not help men to be men and women to be women, do we not doom ourselves to forever be less than we can be?
I can understand the resistance to traditionalism. It certainly isn’t perfect. Many traditionalists will tell young men to go out and get married even though the current version of marriage is horrible for men, and most women are not worth the sacrifice. They tell men to “man up” and to grin and bear it. Why should men wish to do so? Plus, there are plenty of traditionalist women who enjoy their privilege. Why not just seek what brings us joy in our own lives, and fuck everyone else?
But there are many elements of traditionalism that make a great deal of sense; after all, it works. Traditionalism is rooted in our biological differences- men run the household, women are usually subservient, and together we raise children. If you want or have children, then it is important to recognize the usefulness of traditional values. And I honestly believe that many – not all – of the traditionalist women in the manosphere, women such as hestia, are here because they want to better humanity, not just because traditionalism benefits them. If we can improve upon traditionalism, and eliminate women’s undeserved privileges that were here even before feminism, will we not have progressed?
Ask yourself what kind of society we will end up with if the best men all go their own way or bang every slut they can, without every really becoming MEN?
There have been a few folks discussing these issues over at In Mala Fide. Where is the men’s movement heading? What is the end-game?
I’d urge you to read the following articles by Maximus, and comments:
http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/03/07/the-fear-of-manning-up/
http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/04/13/the-moral-question-how-the-search-for-god-prevents-man-from-committing-suicide/
Some choice quotes:
“I am asking every man to man up for patriarchy 2.0 – the salvation of civilization and society. I am asking you to man up and become the kind of leaders, the kind of men, that Kennedy, King and Gandhi were for their time and place in history.”
“Man has stopped asking himself the moral question.”
“MAN is the ONLY ONE that can impose a system of moral values and ethics on himself, and therefore on society as a whole, making man RESPONSIBLE for the moral fabric of society. We already know where leaving the responsibility for the imposition of moral values on society up to women leads us.”
“The ‘discipline and responsibility of a leader’ is to ask moral questions of himself, of the tribe, for the GOOD of all. To lead is to take a moral stance, to state what you believe, and seek out like minded souls in the hope of changing the moral fabric of society for the better, for its future happiness and survival.”
“Game is NOT the end-game (pun fully intended). It is a MEANS that will become a CRUTCH to man re-asserting his position of moral guide and authority over society to advance it to the next age of development. (and all evidence is pointing to such an age, like when Jesus split time into BC and AD, although one can rightly argue that was most likely just a Roman thing in context, but none the less, it is what it is).
That is why game for me is so limiting. It focuses on EMULATING other men when one should be CREATING the man one is meant to be. Game is a crutch, a necessary stop on the self-esteem rebuild that is the N. American male, but a crutch none the less and one I hope to break in my next article.
Alpha is not making the world your bitch. You have NO CONTROL over the world. Alpha is total and complete control and mastery of ONESELF, and therefore, control and mastery over WHATEVER THE WORLD THROWS at him. Many men are mistaking cause for effect.”
“If men agree that we need to unite to defeat feminism, they are also simultaneously agreeing to defend the institution of marriage and family, for that is precisely what feminism was born to destroy in the first place. Therefore, the destruction of feminism is the rise and reinstatement of the institution of patriarchal marriage and family (albeit not in the same way as it was in the 1950s, obviously) as the primary locus and focus of societal organization.”
Maximus’s pieces are provocative, but I know they are in good faith.
This is from someone who calls himself a nihilist most days, and plans on never having children.
You can contrast this with the following article from DelusionDamage, basically an argument for constructive nihilism, which I also cannot really disagree with:
http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/04/05/the-hardest-thing-in-the-world/
I’d urge you to take the time to read these articles, Paul and others.
Two things I’d like to add:
Traditionalism is probably not the answer, but there are some elements of it we should retain. We can build a new reasonable society, learning from the mistakes of the past.
MGTOW and game have their value now, but the main goal of the MRM should be to push humanity toward something better after the collapse. Rebel now, sure, but let us not neglect the reconstruction.
I agree with a whole lot of your very good points, but it is late. I will come back to this. Thank you for the very thoughtful and cogent post.
I agree with a lot of what you said as well. There are way too many women out there who are only too happy to leech off a man. But as I think we’ve both seen first hand, there are some women who understand that a serious relationship ought to be a partnership. If society encouraged such women, and discouraged the harpies, we’d be a lot better off.
I haven’t had a chance to read your “revisited” article, so I don’t know if this is addressed, but…
Another thing I’ve been thinking is that, in a way, the MRM fights against human nature by telling men not to protect women – or at least not to protect just any woman.
I think what we need to do is to be conscious of men’s and women’s natures and address them in positive ways, and to discourage the negative things about our nature (such as white knighting or female privilege) to build a better society. Hopefully this doesn’t sound hokey.
We must deal with the facts of human nature, and the consequences of technology that gives women time on their hands outside of the household, time and energy that must be channeled in a positive way. I don’t want both men AND women to become wage slaves, only to end up benefiting the corporatocracy.
If there is one group that pisses me off more than any, it’s housewives.
The ones that claim to be rushed off their feet all day looking after two kids. The ones that act like housework is a 14hr a day job and that their husbands coudn’t handle it.
I called that bluff.
6 month vacation looking after 2 under 2 doing 3-4 hours of house work per day. I never wanted to work again.
I’m married in a shared work/chores house and my partner can’t stand whining housewives either.
If your kids are rowdy – Friggin discipline them
If they make a mess – Localize it you mongoloids, don’t let them have free reign all over the house with an ice cream in one hand and a grape juice box in the other.
Rocket science much?
Get a job, and shut up. Real job = money for hard work.
…and to hell with the femisocialists who say SATM’s should get a living wage.
AHHHGGG!
I have two kids and it is a full time job. I have also worked and believe me this is comparable to a full time job. It is not just cleaning up messes and daycare. When doing things like renovating our house all the organizing and interviewing people and calling falls on me, I also learn and teach my kids things every day and I am working on starting a business. And I know a lot of housewifes and NONE would pass up on an opportunity to make extra money. The all take odd jobs when they can get them. Temp jobs are just hard to find.
Spot on Paul, the women you mention are just another bunch of selfish, self-serving entitlement princess.
Interesting article, Paul.
You can go your own way……….
this article was a total eye-opener. I am just floored by the sheer novelty of the idea presented.
I always thought feminists were the problem, and that “the traditional woman” was something of an ally who possessed perhaps just enough sense to see a fraction of the hardships that men are forced to endure. At least the “traditional woman” doesn’t, unlike those cunts we have come to call feminists (or maybe it’s the other way around), pester men by endlessly nagging society for rights, priveleges, and whatever other perks they fancy, while of course contributing nothing in return, sucking up everything as if her pussy were a blackhole.
Or so I thought. Little did I know I had a white-knight still languishing in my subconscious psyche. Just goes to prove how insidious chivalry can be.
But I now see, thanks to the article, that the “traditional woman” perpetuates chivalry, and in so doing, tacitly gives her approval to let men fall for the sake of women, to voluntarily give up a seat on a life boat from a sinking ship, while she laments the pain of having to watch the ship go down, not the death of the man who gave up his life so she could enjoy hers.
Despite the brilliance of the article, though, I fear that most women and certainly all feminists will be unable to comprehend the message. Let them be clueless, the world will still one day wake up and realize the madness that is misandry, and the absurdity of chivalry.
PS
Love the “dear woman” theme, too. I still have to recover from the experience of watching that piece of garbage.
It’s not novelty when you realise that feminists, chivarists and traditional housewives all want the same thing – a pedestal and male subjugation for power and profit.
This is a truly awesome article. Particularly because it says something that is often neglected. Feminists typically like painting us as “traditionalist patriarchs” who just want things to be the way they were and can’t take equality (along with the other accusations). I think this is actually their main argument against us. But they couldn’t be more wrong.
I suspect, with more writing like this, we might very well win some allies over from the feminist side, who were falsely taught that we just want women back in the kitchen. This could be an untapped resource for growth – a lot of growth. I could even imagine this article being displayed on some non-radical feminist websites. Might be worth a try.
I don’t give a half squat about winning over feminists or any dork from that side. Screw ‘em all.
Off topic but always relevant.
A woman here in Australia went to court today for murdering her new born. She wanted to compete in the 2000 Olympics and the kid was a hindrance – ergo her motivation.
Now to the judge:
He said Lane was only 21 when she murdered her baby and had since undergone rehabilitation.
“The present case may properly be seen, in every sense, as a tragedy involving mother and daughter,” he said.
Justice Whealy said there was evidence Lane had a personality disorder but not a psychiatric illness.
He said he agreed with the Crown’s description of Lane as a “golden girl” and he said her life had been laid bare by the media.
“She murdered Tegan in a situation of desperation,” he said.
“From her perception there was simply no way out.”
Justice Whealy said the matter would continue to haunt Lane throughout her life.
When in doubt people, reverse the genders and read it again.
Hhhmmm…
We live in dark times you better believe it.
“I’d sooner break bread with a feminist than a traditionalist whore seeking to protect the free labor and protection that keeps her on her bon-bon fattened ass.”
Sure, but no traditionalist woman is forcing you through the authority of the state to break bread with them. They would at least have to trick you into the raw deal first. The feminist movement coerces you to break bread with them via taxes, social programs, etc. To warn men of traditional women in our feminist era is extremely fruitful, but to simply write a “fuck you” to traditional women is counter productive.
I would hope that the goal of the MRM is not to establish a protocol for how men and women are supposed to behave, but rather to effect legal equality between men and women. In the latter, if for some strange reason a man did want to be the host of a “traditional” woman, he would at least not be royally screwed by that state should she decide to bail.
American Man,
COULD IT BE THAT YOUR WOMEN LEARNED FROM YOU?
You complain that they try to control you, that they take your children away, steal your money and your homes, make you work to death……..
Haven’t you stolen young MEN from Africa, tearing them away from their villages, their families, their children??
Haven’t you put them into shackles, humiliated them for centuries, made them work till they dropped?
Haven’t you stolen the land of America to Indian MEN, savagely slaughtering them?
Aren’t you the ones sending troops and bombarding civilians (killing innocent MEN), in the name of democracy (your favorite hypocrit and manipulative excuse) when and where it’s in your sole financial interest?
Aren’t you the ones trying to control the world?
You cry for men, but your history doesn’t show much respect for men themselves.
It seems like your women are just your own reflections.
They had good teachers : YOU.
THAT is BACKLASH.
It is absurd to hold actions of a remote past to individuals who are completely uninvolved with such actions, and to then say those innocent individuals suffer blatant injustices in the present ought to feel guilty as they are thrown under a bus.
“American Man,
COULD IT BE THAT YOUR WOMEN LEARNED FROM YOU?
You complain that they try to control you, that they take your children away, steal your money and your homes, make you work to death……..
Haven’t you stolen young MEN from Africa, tearing them away from their villages, their families, their children??
Haven’t you put them into shackles, humiliated them for centuries, made them work till they dropped?”
No, that happened 200 years ago, nobody alive today had anything to do with that,neither as slaveowner,nor as slave.
“Haven’t you stolen the land of America to Indian MEN, savagely slaughtering them?”
No, see above. I have given possessions of mine to individual Native Americans as a gift, but I have never taken anything from a Native American in my life.
“Aren’t you the ones sending troops and bombarding civilians (killing innocent MEN), in the name of democracy (your favorite hypocrit and manipulative excuse) when and where it’s in your sole financial interest?
Aren’t you the ones trying to control the world?”
None of us work for the CIA, FBI,in Congress,or as the President.
I haven’t sent any bombs or troops whatsoever anywhere in the world,I don’t have the power to do that, and I didn’t even vote for this president.
Women haven’t learned shit from me, if they did, it would be talk less,think more.
Does it look like they’re learning to you?
It was the Muslims who tore Africa apart. Just like it was Marxism that trashed three generation of the USSR. Your antics are no different from that a female pedophile who spouts self gratifying rhetoric to mask their guilt. Even the oldest kingdoms one earth had slaves.
@BootRadLee
Your complete argument is bullshit. How are white American men responsible for something that happened before any of us were born?
The majority of white Americans today never owned a slave in their family’s history. Most came across the ocean in the 1900′s to escape the rampant poverty/class system/famine/hopelessness that took place in Europe at that time.
The majority of African slaves were actually sold by Africans themselves. IE you kidnap Timmy one day while he is out picking firewood and sell him to a slaver(Kunta Kinte’s story “roots”).
If it was in our “sole financial interest” into going to war with other countries then why is Iraq a member of Opec? We don’t take their oil, we buy it from them like we do from the Saudi’s. Iraq has the second largest oil fields on the planet. I think I would have noticed during my two tours there if we actually took any. Afghanistan has trillions of dollars of mineral wealth and how many mines do we defend and operate(a hint ZERO).
I am not sure how to properly express how much of a fucking idiot you are.
You just did. Well done.
And as a former military person myself, thanks for what you do/did.
Women own slaves today… The govt owns slaves today…
I should have known sooner or later that you White Knighting pieces of shit would pop up and try to shame us all into silence. And your Anti-White racism is so clear to see. Do some research before you start spouting your fucking nonsense, and my ancestors were slaves themselves, bitch! Don’t talk about what you don’t know.
“Haven’t you stolen young MEN from Africa, tearing them away from their villages, their families, their children??
ROTFLMMFAO!!
Yes, oh yes, that’s meeeee!
I ripped apart the entire African continent for slaves, killed me a bunch of injuns, and attacked Libya as a part of a scheme to control the world, right here from my laptop!
I do it every morning right after I walk the dogs and just before I sit down and try to pay bills.
Pretty much the typical morning in the average White American male.
And in other news Auntie M, Dorothy is still somewhere, but not in Kansas for sure.
New T-shirt meme, guys:
“Feminism – Gods Retaliation for Being Caucasoid American (or if your great great great granddaddy was)
With a schedule like that Paul when do you manage to fit in the Mean Evil Patriarchy meetings to plan for the dominions and oppression of women? Do tell us your time management secrets!
Being a purely evil White Male is like its own time management system. The oppression I deal out; the tragedies I inflict on my fellow human beings comes so naturally that I can, for instance, enslave any number of women while putting a light dollop of foam in my cappuccino.
Sometimes though, it’s hard to find enough time to stop and snicker while I twirl my mustache.
Paul, seriously!!!!
You are my new hero!!!!
The only hero I had was a sporting one Mr Jack Nicklaus.
On a personal level however, you sir are now mine!!!
It may not mean much to you but my statements are sincere.
Thank you for all you do!!!!!
Not only that, Paul is behind schedule on raping 5 out of 3 women every microsecond… that and dying early so other Patriachy supporters can falsely claim male disposability.
I just rape seven more while I was reading your comment so I am nearly caught up. Thanks for the reminder. I have a busy schedule and sometimes don’t have time for all the rapes I need for my quota.
LOL! 10,000,000 thumbs up!
PAUL !
Stop it ! What’s the matter with you ?
What’s all this about raping and pillaging and stuff ?
Right… that’s it ! I am off to another site as quite frankly I cannot stay here a minute longer as I am a hater of evil and a lover of nice and good things.. like flowers and rainbows and fresh bread.
Fuck ! Where the hell did I put those mushrooms ?
Git back to yo desk, hankie-head. It’s time for your coffee break.
Oh dear. sin of the father rubbish. Little known fact 2 million english men women and children were take by barbary pirates (sailing up to the west coast of england during the middle ages) and sold into slavery. Slavery still exists, no not the sex slavery beloved by feminists (enter your latest estimate here _____) but in Africa. Many male slaves have their achilles tendon cut to stop them excaping. So perform some useful work jump on your white charger and go rescue them. I’m sure western women will give you leave from your rescue duties here. Then again probably not.
Yes, slavery still exists, in the 10′sw of millions right here in the USA –
Women own those slaves and the govt owns those slaves
What a bunch of lame, puerile tripe. That is just a bunch of half-assed shaming, and it’s fooling no one.
Question for you – where were all the whiote women while all that was going on? Crying all the way to the bank, the whole time.
“THAT is BACKLASH.”
No, that is childish bullshit. Grow up. You sound like a Church Lady, or one of her little castrated mama’s boys.
I suppose that africans and indians wer sitting around, writing poetry, eating broccoli and making love to eachother all night…get a life you whining sow. For one, the Americans didnt go into africa and rip MEN away from their villages,they BOUGHT them from AFRICAN cheifs. Indians were slaughtered and enslaved yes, but conquerers arent usually kind. They DONT HAVE TO BE. The SPANIARDS didnt kiss the indians, they killed them after they fucked their wives…BIG DEAL, its human nature. Europeans came here, and TOOK what they wanted because they COULD>As for war, its never pretty. IT’s WAR!!
I never stole anyone from anywhere. Nor did my father or grandfathers.
Well said Paul,
Indeed, it does annoy me sometimes when I see fellow posters sticking
up for the female posters who try (albeit quite poorly) to disguise themselves
as legitimate MRA’s.
I want to make it clear that doubtless there are probably a few females who
post here who are genuine and sincere about their desires to see change for
the better and It is not them I seek to condemn.
All women who are here to further a traditionalist agenda are wasting their
own time and everybody elses. It ain’t gonna happen ladies.
In light of this fact, I would urge any of them doing so to please kindly refrain
from doing so or kindly f*@k off, Thank You.
Aslo as an Off Topic addendum, it has just been announced that more
girls are joining the ‘Scouts’ movement than Boys in the UK.
Linky: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13082946
It seems that even here in the UK young boys are under attack from
all sides and it doesn’t look like it’s going to change any time soon.
I also offer the following story for those of you from the US another
example of how depraved some women are.
A woman called Julie Carr hailing from ‘Bangor’ in the once great state
of ‘Maine’ was caught committing acts of extreme sexual depravity upon
a defenceless 2 year old child whilst allowing a peadophile to watch via webcam.
Linky: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-13070596
I would have thought that if such a request was made to anyone in their
right mind, the first place they would go would be to the local Police to
report it.
Instead this woman somehow decided that it would be fun to perpetrate
and record the disgraceful acts herself, seriously WTF is the deal with that?
Am I missing something here?
She has been sentenced to 20 years for her crimes, doubtless that poor
child will still remember what happened to her for a lot longer than twenty years.
The more I read about these ‘American’ women, the more they sicken me
to my stomach.
“A woman called Julie Carr hailing from ‘Bangor’ in the once great state of ‘Maine’ was caught committing acts of extreme sexual depravity upon a defenceless 2 year old child whilst allowing a peadophile to watch via webcam.”
Migawd, that’s horrible! And in the state of Maine!
Where is Assistant DA Mary Kellett when we need her?
(Paul, is there a “rolleyes” smiley available for this comment?)
Well, home from work again, no overtime tonight.
Hey Giselle. I’m glad you don’t believe in collective guilt lol When you see a smiley face after something I write, it means I’m being a smart arse, or sarcastic or joking. In that case I was taking a page out of the feminist handbook. They invented collective guilt, what they never thought of is that it can work both ways. Yes, it’s bullshit either way it’s used.
@Andrea
You sound like an excellent woman. But you would have to agree that woman like you are becoming extinct, and the ones that want to be like you are finding they are under increasing pressure to turn into gremlins and be more like the gender feminists want you to be.
In fact, back in my grandmothers day women had more of a choice. Today there less choice, because you are being forced into a single lifestyle chosen by the feminists for you. You’re told what the think even, what attitude to have based on their view through their gender microscope, the one they view everything through.
To them, you are a traitor. A traitor because you don’t work, a traitor because you do the housework, a traitor because your husband handle the finances, a traitor because you don’t make up abuse stories even though none happened…….but most of all your a traitor because you love a man, and especially because you love sex with him.
@Falsely Accused Soldier
Who was it that accused you? You’ve probably written it before, if you could jog my memory.
Stu-
Go here…
http://avoiceformen.com/2011/02/03/a-soldiers-story-the-travesty-of-false-allegation/
Izzey
@hestia
The time managment is easy. Every Dr Evil has one, it’s called a woman lol
Ever notice how there is the Myth that behind every great man there is a woman. And they get credit for the good things the man does. But didn’t all the evil tyrants have women too, most of them anyway. How come the women don’t get the credit for their deeds.
Stu,
Society still mostly holds women up on their pedestal. They can only be lauded and not held guilty of wrongs.
Ah, the Devil made them do it, didn’t SHE?
“There were slaves willing to die protecting their master’s during the American civil war. That is what happens sometimes in the minds of the lifestyle indentured; the permanently and horrifically exploited”.
Strong article Paul! The passage above is one akin to my thoughts about how most men are still so conditioned to being serfs to women and society. Fortunately, it is starting to change though it will take even longer for men to move from a position of ghosting women and society to actually stand up against misandrist forces.
It is articles like this that are going to kill off a lot of support that might otherwise be here for the “mens movement”, and thats a tragedy………a real tragedy for men like Vladek Filler.
It is views like this that are going to keep the “movement” in a small box that it can’t break out of.
Yes, I signed the petition for Mr. Filler, but articles like this are going to drive away others who may have signed it.
After all, its your site, you can do what you want with it.
Heartbreaking at the lost potential.
So, Mr. J, what would you recommend? Sorry if the truth drives people away, but if that is the case, then they aren’t really supporters, are they, and this article makes exactly that point.
Being meek sheep isn’t going to drive change. Fire and passion will. And I hope Paul keeps it up.
Dear Mr. J and Andrea,
If you set aside the charged words and focus on the actual content of Paul’s article, you will find that it is a simple acknowledgement of a truth:
“The traditional relationship between men and women is dead. People who advocate in favour of this type of relationship are doing vast amounts of damage to young men who risk their freedom, their property, and their lives in return for nothing.”
I have a traditional, stay at home wife. My wife and I are raising two boys. I fear for my future, and the future of my children, every day. My life, and my son’s lives, are totally dependent on my wife’s good will.
If my wife chooses to sacrifice her family to the maelstrom of feminist anti-male hatred, no court, no institution, and no law enforcement agency will recognize my humanity. I will have no rights, and my life will have no value. My life, my dreams, my freedom will be a pile of ashes before I even enter a family court. A judge will then display my children, my labour, my freedom, my future, and my life on an “a la carte” menu for my wife to dispose of as she wishes.
In the current environment, people who advocate for traditional marriage are like WWI generals who ordered their troops to charge machine gun emplacements. At some point, the odds became so awful that it is irresponsible and reprehensible even to suggest traditional marriage.
If, like myself, you have a traditional marriage that is currently working, SAY NOTHING. Just because I walked through a mine field and did not blow up, does not mean that I advocate for anyone to follow me.
AntZ-
Just because I walked through a mine field and did not blow up, does not mean that I advocate for anyone to follow me.
Now THAT would be great on a t-shirt!
Which reminds me of the movie “Sum Of All Fears”
There was a guy in the movie that had on a t-shirt that said-
Bomb Technician
If I am running-
Follow me.
that is true, i hope the laws can change.
It won’t kill any real support. It will drive away a lot of false friends. However it will also attract a lot of supporters like AntZ below, who a bunch of mealy-mouthed sweet talk woould drive away. So if the choice is between supporters like AntZ or false friends, and it comes down tone, what’s the obvious right choice?
Mr J, you are such a fine, fine parrot, telling us that being honest and telling the truth is the path to becoming our own worst enemy…
Thanks, no, really, thanks! Now we know you at one with the DV coalition femi-chivalrist parasites…
I’ll bet you are really good at not offending legislators and DV coalition members with your fine sense of diplomacy (not stepping on the toes of or offending any gang-molesters and pillagers, with truth or accountability).
Now, go help Glenn sacks attack and condemn all men who murder their wives as a result of the false allegations, parental alienation and all the other abuse they get nonstop which there is NO HELP FOR, thanks to “men” like you who help our fine gang-molesters orchestrate such in the first place…
Mr. J
The whole purpose of the MRM is to attack the systems the feminists have put in place to limit mens choices, screw men over, demonize us etc etc. The marriage system, or marriage V2, is one of those systems. What you are saying is that feminists won’t like what write, or others that benefit from the feminist system won’t like it……..we say……so what. They won’t like anything that challenges that system no matter how you word it. If we go by your rules, then we don’t rock the boat……and that’s why we are in this mess now…….we didn’t rock the boat enough starting 40 years ago.
As for Mr Filler’s situation, who else on this earth bar the MRM is fighting for justice for him. Do you see any of the these people that your worried will be offended fighting for any of the Mr Fillers out there. You won’t, because like you, they are to scared of rocking the boat and offending the Mrs Adolf Hitlers of the world
@Stu
The point is, that there ARE “traditional women” who do what they’re supposed to do just like the men they are married to and both are happy in their marriage and DON’T seek divorces no matter what happens….Yes, they may be few by percentage, but they ARE out there.
You think I’m scared of rocking boats??? hahahahahahaha, you don’t know the first thing about me if you think that!!!….I’ve done more against radical feminism than you’ll probably ever know.
Like I said, do what you want, its a free press, but general “fuck you” articles aren’t going to drum up much new support from anywhere…Its not intelligent, its not creative and intelligence and creativity is what gets things done usually.
“who do what they’re supposed to do just like the men they are married to and both are happy in their marriage and DON’T seek divorces no matter what happens”
They are just like a smoker who quits smoking between cigarrettes but carries a carton along “just in case”.
Mr. J, I’m glad to hear (or to impute) that “Mrs. J” has your pipe and slippers in hand, when you walk in the door after a long hard day at the office, with dinner ready to serve and a nice kiss on the forehead just for love’s sake. How lovely for you.
Do I think you’re scared of rocking boats? No; you sound more like a man who is cussing out Paul for grabbing the cushion off your wife’s deck chair, to use it for a little flotation to buy a few more precious minutes of life when the Titanic sinks out from under us. (While she is rowed away on the life-boat that just left.)
However “traditional” a woman might be, she has the full force of “the guns of Government” behind her if she chooses to break the “traditional contract” for any reason at all, up to and including a whim or a momentary snit. You may not even see it coming until the sheriff serves the papers.
We, who have been burned by the system (or have watched our brethren get turned into human torches by the system), have no trust in the system nor in those who palpably, constantly, by their nature are consecrated as the “natural” beneficiaries of the system.
Good luck with the pipe and slippers.
You sure do make assumptions, don’t you, you don’t even know if I’m married.
That’s why I used the term “impute”.
Notice I didn’t “assume” you’re married. I know the meaning of that acronym. No assumptions at all.
You just sound like a Ward Cleaver, to me.
Thats MISTER Cleaver, to you……..lolol….
Then perhaps it’d be more effective and constructive to sail full force towards the corrupt politicians and laws that are fucking up the life of everyone. I say we make this much more political, and not so personal…once the laws are changed to be equal on all counts, the world will be a much happier place..
Mr J, “intelligence and creativity is what gets things done us”
You mean diplomatically kissing the ass of the gang molesters is they key to success??? That would have worked quite well with other dictators too, huh?
You know whats going to happen?………….I’ll tell you.
All those “news outlets”, you know, ABC CBS NBC New York Times, etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc……that you all want the Filler case put on……they’re going to do a little research before they do and they’re going to find this “fuck you” article on here and some other crass stuff and write you all off as kooks…………..any CHANCES to get on will be gone.
Is standing up big and saying “FUCK YOU” to people worth that to you?
First of all, this a cause dedicated to the liberation of men everywhere, especially those that reside in the West. We are not interested in getting women to like us or agree with us, but we are all about putting the truth out there for everyone to see, and telling our side of the story. It just so happens that women can relate to the fact that feminism brings disgrace to their gender, and it is the very thing that will screw both men and women over in the long run.
And who gives a shit what some fucking media outlet thinks of us, because as far as we are concerned we have nothing but facts and evidence to back up our claims. The mainstream media relishes in spouting lies and distorted truths.
You expect us to be meek and silent about how we feel, and not express the least bit of anger. FUCK THAT!! People need to know that we are tired of putting up with everyones shit! Don’t try to censor us!
Apologist manginas like you need to go fly a kite, and buzz the fuck off. We don’t need your soft-ass, self-defeating, whimpering message, and NAWALT excuses. Your ass is nothing but bells and whistles, and you do the MRM a great disservice. Fuck diplomacy, the feminists drew first blood, and now we are fighting back.
“Anger is a legitimate emotion in the face of and injustice, and passive acceptance of evil is not a virtue.” This is in regards to your pathetic attempts to shame and silence us.
My “attempts to shame and silence you”……..????????????
you think that?……………REALLY???????????
Don’t forget this one, Richard G.-
“One who uses the Code Blue shaming tactic reveals a callous indifference to the humanity of men. It may be constructive to confront such an accuser and ask if a certain problem men face needs to be addressed or not (“yes” or “no”), however small it may be seem to be. If the accuser answers in the negative, it may constructive to ask why any man should care about the accuser’s welfare since the favor will obviously not be returned. If the accuser claims to be unable to do anything about the said problem, one can ask the accuser why an attack is necessary against those who are doing something about it.”
Izzey
Yeah, like that ever kept feminists from getting airtime. Outright gender bigots like Wendy Murphy who have a paper trail a mile wide showing what an unhinged man-hater she is has no problem whatever getting airtime.
You seem to have no idea how this works. The public is a bunch of blood-thirsty animals when it comes to what they watch. This red meat. This kind of thing will get the crowds baying for blood.
Mr J, “All those “news outlets”, you know, ABC CBS NBC New York Times, etc etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc……that you all want the Filler case put on……” are not going to tell the truth no matter how diplomatic you are and how much of the truth you leave out to please them…
Only one way to topple a Hitler, and it’s not with kindness and kissing ass…
It’s diplomatic chivalrist lapdogs of feminists “on our side” who are the worst enemy, worse than feminists.
The traditional housewife of the 1950′s doesn’t exist anymore, it’s an illusion. The modern traditional housewife is more like the House Wives of OC. That would’ve made a great pic for the OP.
With all due respect to you, you would have to know everyone everywhere to know that for sure.
Now, don’t everyone jump all over me, I only said that, not anything else.
I’m sure there is still a very small minority of decent traditionalist women somewhere out in the country working on a farm. The rest of them are narcissistic privileged princesses.
Ok, now go and look at some feminazi sites, and see how many truley hate mongering comments and articles you find. Funny how successful they have been at getting everything they want in spite of those big mouth hate mongers….hang on….that’s everyone that’s anyone in the feminist movement.
In fact, you don’t even have to look at the feminazi sites. Just pay attention to mains stream media.
So right, Stu!!!
Yeah, and when we tell the truth, manginas like Mr J jump you for it. Look at the contrast: The media and bloodsucking politicians aren’t going to love you for omitting critical parts of the truth and kissing their asses. They do however love the liars and abusers though, no matter what they say or do. They will always despise you for telling any truth or wanting any portion of equality.
Stop trying to please the gang molesters and just do what’s right. Truth can only conquer that way in this far gone sick femi-chivarist world.
@Stu
That doesn’t mean its going to work the same way for us and giving them additional excuses isn’t going to help.
I’ve known guys that married traditional women. I married one many many years ago. You don’t want to know the details of how that turned out. Imagine living in the twilight zone for years. I’ve known guys that married even more traditional women, women more traditional then any woman I’ve ever known or met. I knew them long enough to see them dragged through the family courts and ripped off for most of what they had worked for.
Right now, there is guy at work who has just gotten this arse raping from the family court. Met him a couple of year ago, and he had a few probs with his marriage then. I tried to tell him that it is over, she is going to leave you, and going to rob you blind. He said no….she’s not like that. She was a very traditional woman from Thialand. They had been married 15 years, he met her in Thialand, and brought her back here to Oz. I tried to warn him, he thought if the marriage does go down the tubes, it will be a fair split up. Well, that’s how it started, and I warned him again…….i told him she was lulling him into a false sense of security while she plotted with lawyers to set him up for the big kill. Wouldn’t listen…..they had talked, and had a deal. Well……I was right…..he ended up with nothing……..zip……….zero. And now she is going back to Thialand with his 14 year old daughter…..and the court has approved….and the child support agency here will keep collecting and sending the money to her.
Traditional also means……she gets the house, the kids…..you get the debts…the bills….the child support payments. Reason….she’s totally dependant on you……and for that….you owe her.
But according to Mr.J, not all traditional women are like that, and us expressing our anger is bound to scare people away and not get them to support us. This is site provides a voice for men (hence the title) to vent out our frustrations, but we have to worry about how we present ourselves to other people, or we might not get any support.
And in my opinion, foreign women are worse because from men the same Western women do, and they hitch a plane back to their pitiful, fly-and-shit infested, third-world nations.
I meant to say that foreign women rob from men the same way Western women do. I forgot to add that part.
It’s not women like your talking about that we are against Mr. J. It’s the system.
I’m sure if you are married to a traditional woman, that you will sleep easier at night if the system that allows her the option of turning gremlin on you and being rewarded for that is gone. I’m sure you will sleep easier at night knowing that if she did want to disolve the marriage at some point in time……that she doesn’t have the current anti male system at her disposal. And that is what we are seeking to bring about.
Stu-
I left you the link for Falsely Accused Soldier’s article on your inquiring post farther back.
Your first sentence is what I’m saying all along…..and, I upvoted you on this and on your last one.
ok, I’ve said all I’m going to say on this article……..I’ve tried to be constructive.
That is all.
Ok thanks Izzey
@Falsley Accused Soldier
This is from your post describing the details of the false allegation against you.
“My story started last summer when we got back from Iraq. My best friend and I went to a night club and long story short I had sex with a woman. This woman was a female soldier and ended up being late to work the next morning.”
Ok, so the woman who falsley accussed you is a soldier.
You said in an earlier post that the Military looks after it’s own. Tell me….did she look after you. The honour system that you speak of is a male contruct and very few woman subscribe to that. Most women play for team vagina, regardless of what other teams they belong too.
We can barely go a day without hearing of some grievance that women in the military have against male soldiers. It’s destroying the military. There are so many women in there now that are willing to make mountians out of mole hills or just plain make stuff up. You would think that the military would be the last place to nurture victimhood, considering the body bags coming home full, and the line of business they are in. Doesn’t matter though, the girls are turning the military into the same as any other workplace…where them over hearing a dirty joke is a bigger issue then you getting blown to peices by a road side bomb.
I’ll bet the mangina population is growing like wildfire in the military too. Where ever the feminists go, the manginas follow.
I really like Hestia, but I don’t think it’s true to assume that military wives are any better than others.
In fact, there’s lots of soldiers getting dear johns.
Austere reality check, Denis.
I had not seen this one.
I won’t soon forget it, either.
Izzey
It’s a powerful video. I saw it over a year ago and I haven’t forgotten. It’s a tragic story.
I recall watching this video a while ago leaving a deep impression in my mind. Very well done video clip. A shocking truth that people opt to ignore. In Canada 8 men will commit suicide each day due to the ravages of divorce driving them to a dead end where they find themselves void of all worth and stripped of everything including their dignity.
Hestia is a good person, a good woman, a good comrade to her warrior husband. The military spouse, the woman who stays home with the children while her man is sent off to war, has taken on a tough assignment. From what she says here, she has earned my respect.
Sad to say, there are military spouses (and non-military spouses) who don’t hold up their part of the marriage contract. The courts, the legal system, this society as a whole, supports them as they weasel out of their vows; she blames her husband, and they support her; she claims the lion’s share of all he owned, all he earned, all he will earn in the future, and Family Law cedes it over to her with a wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
@Stu
If your honorable then I give credit where it is due.
That is something alot of women don’t seem to grasp the concept of(some men as well). That concept is:
Honor
Basically the only way I can explain it in words.
Just ask any of these so called “traditional women” about parity of reproduction rights, default shared parenting judgements, abolition of alomony and paternity fraud and you will see their true selves.
These “traditional women” support men’s rights only because of and to the extent that there is a major marriage strike going on and that means they cannot find themselves a slave.
Once again, O’Hara with the ugly truth.
reproduction rights? you mean if he should have a say in abortion.. I have always said the husband should, and if there is no husband she should still have to get a guy she claims is the father to sign. Oddly enough my husband does not agree.
default parenting rights- yup should be 50% default.. if you want to go to court to change it, fine. But should be 50% without a court judgement to say otherwise.
alimony should be abolished but a good welfare system should be in place to help parents care for the basic needs of kids. Something like how it is with kindergeld in Germany.
paternity fraud is not good.
i support men’s right because I am a mother and because what affects half of the population affects me.
Mrs. Z, are you doing OK young lady?
Paul,
Congratulations on raising a veritable fire-storm! It’s been fun!
@Izzey
Yes I got that. I cut and pasted a little bit of that article in a post here.
You’re a good labour saving device Izzey lol
Well, looks like this thread is coming to an end.
Ok, next shit storm. Who we hating on next
Expose the diplomatic chivalrist lapdogs of feminists among us, “on our side,” pretending to be “moderate” MRA’s who are the worst enemy, worse than feminists, because they are chivarist traitors not wanting US to tell the truth.
The ones who tell us that we are our own worst enemy for telling the truth… They sing the same exact tune feminists and chivalrists sing: “You are your own worst enemy to your cause.”
Who’s side do they think they are on?
Might I ask just WHAT brought this rant on?
And what kind of “traditional” woman you are talking about?
I’m not even a traditionalist, and I don’t hate all traditional women.
And just how could they hurt our movement given:
A. They want some of the things we want
B. We are small and can use all the help we can get
Please explain.
And by the way, I’m not even a Christian!
Well, I support shared parenting rights, and I also would not adverse to male legal abortion, aka “choice for men”.
I know some religious women who would support that.
What then?
The following comment was made by somebody else (not me) which I think concurs with the sentiment of the original article.
Again… if traditional women want to help men, here is how:
Accept that you are a lost generation, ladies. Accept it. There is no help for you. You’re fighting for your children. I WILL TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY WHEN YOU ARE WILLING TO DO THE FOLLOWING:
Your generation must work because you’ve made it impossible not to. You must therefore work but you must keep your earnings out of the economy and deliberately assist in causing a well overdue correction in said economy. Also known as: stop buying shit. The intended purpose here is to make it so that in the next generation, ACTUAL traditional women can exist. You’re not. Stop playing.
Your generation must radically cut back spending
Your generation must place the budget in your man’s hands and adhere to it like your very soul depends on it
Your generation must commit to having few children per family
Your generation must bear dual responsibility of at least part time work post-children, and raising the child. THIS MEANS FUCKING LEARNING WHAT YOU ARE DOING INSTEAD OF TRYING TO WING IT. Emotional outbursts at your children, or at your spouse, or at your kids to SHAME your spouse, WILL be considered blackmail and psychological abuse. No exceptions. Live with it.
Your generation must live well well WELL below its means. Like, assume you only have 30-40% of your actual combined income.
Your generation must instill true moral values in your kids. This means no divorce, most certainly, for starters. Also a rejection of modern culture.
Your generation must die not ever knowing if you actually succeeded or not.
Impress me, or I remain unimpressed.
They will never do that, but guess what, the feminist dream world is in the process of collapsing. They don’t need to.
I remember 15 years ago when stories about mass rapes in Yugoslavia came out. People were all horrified about that shit. Women were killed for sport, after being gang-banged for 48 hours by hundreds of bored soldiers. Women too old or unattractive to serve as sex toys were tortured to death with electricity, repeated drownings and revivals, etc.
There, as here today, women were artificially elevated. These were the natural results of men being brutalized. It was justified revenge.
Guess what? We’re on the cusp of the same thing now, right here in the good old USA. What do you think that men will do when the jobs dry up further, when there’s mass inflation, when all the government funded pretend professions that women are artificially propped up in now quit paying the bills?
Just as those slags in Europe deserved it yesterday, these entitled Americunts will tomorrow. Men will get their payback on them. Rape camps and death camps for hoes are just over the horizon.
In 100 years, women are going to be considered a non-human form of life. Merely a human incubator.
Futrelle, is that you?
Most wives can’t even warm up a hot dog in a microwave without screaming “what am I, a slave!?!?”
Years ago, when both Hector and I were pups, I heard “be nice, be reasonable” stuff from the non-moving men’s movement’s leaders.
Whenever I visit feminist sites and see wimmin called on their shite, similar fear emanates from meek males. They say nothing when men are categorically maligned, but split hairs when feminists get critiqued. They hem and haw and do all the can to defuse male anger, lest it turn into righteous rage…a rage that could lead to effective action.
Such manginas are, in practice and essence, women’s group lapdogs. They remain mute when manhood is attacked, barking only when anything female is called to account.
The fact is, when it comes to movements, only squeaky wheels are heeded. You can’t build a counterforce to feminism by being “nice.” And any informed reading of feminism will show it did not grow because its leaders remained prim, proper, and polite. It grew because their spokespersons dared to make noise…even (especially?) “outrageous” noise.
An army, like a factory, needs many things. There are many roles to play, amny functions to fulfill. Combat grunts need cooks. Cooks need motorpool supply trucks. Truck need mehanics. Etc.
Similarly, the men’s movement needs firebrands like Rick Zubaty, activists like Fred Hayward, academics like Warren Farrell and Herb Goldberg, and others. There are many roles to play. Every man has a niche he can ably fill.
The problem is that, for years, only tepid men’s groups were heeded by mass media. Inept groups were dubbed the “real” men’s movement. Ergo, there are zillions of small, scattered, disunited father’s rights groups (some 3 decades old!) that no one knows or cares about. Plus Robert Bly’s “mythopathetic” doofusses stole men’s issues’ thunder and made the world laugh at masculinism. Who could blame it? As feminism attacked families and transformed father’s into “visitors,” so-called leaders urged men to head for the hills to sweat in lodges and hold “talking sticks.”
We need folks willing to get in feminists’ faces! They don’t have to be perfect or always right. But they ARE needed because silent men will never be heard.
Nor will ones who are too polite. Anyone who’s ever appeared on-air with feminists know they do not play fair. They will interrupt, talk over you, hit under the belt. You have to knock them on their butts verbally, early and often.
Patton was not Marshall was not McArthur was not Eisenhower. Yet all were needed. There is more than one way to slice an apple.
Style is not as important as effectiveness. No one who reads a profanity(!)-spiced missive by Paul can fail to note the over-all articulateness that his f-bombs are sprinkled over. His polemics are popular precisely because they are polar opposites of feminist “scholarship” (which castrates men using the Queen’s English). That is they are reasonable and logical AND take no prisoners.
It is high time men take off their gloves. We’re in the soup we’re in now because too many men chose to remain polite and mute when there was still time to stop the enemy.
The “house of men” was infiltrated by a few feminist termites. The occupants mostly ignored them as “harmless.” Now that house seriously totters. We need to call in pilots to drop f-bombs and fire fumigation missiles. If the pilots occasionally curse, spit, drink, fart, and hell-raise so what?
There is a time to parlay with an approaching enemy. That time ends when they begin to attack. We’ve kept our guns more-or-less silent for 5 decades. It’s time to return fire and loose the dogs of war!
Ok, I see what you are saying. There is a paradox between the traditional “stay at home mom” and feminism in the sense they are still users and therefore hate men really.
I don’t entirely agree because I believe that extreme feminism – i.e. we don’t need men anymore and women are taking over the world is not good for men and neither is men just being used all the time – i.e. shielding women from making a greater contribution.
So I think the real solution is for men and women to work together as a team in the model as given in the book of proverbs, where a woman is described as someone who makes herself useful – e.g. spinning flax/making clothes, ensuring kids are well looked after and tending the market stall when the man is busy doing other jobs. That sounds more like an even partnership to me. true equality actually!
The problem is that too many generations of women are skewed to be users or men haters because of society and the changes in our economic world, etc
if you take your woman out to a log cabin in the wild west – the biblical model works a treat. but when you both work on wall street 16 hours a day and try to raise a kid – all of a sudden the battle begins… thoughts guys?
Is this where you’ve taken your cause Paul? Tell me…what’s the fundamental difference between what you’re doing in this blog vs. what the feminist does in hers? In my eyes, I see no difference, except that you are attempting to make an enemy out of those who wish to see you succeed. All you’re doing is hating, ergo, you’ve forgotten your cause and have now allowed the feminist to control your emotions, isn’t this exactly what you mean NOT to do? This is blog reads like an emotional hatefilled rant, rather than something derived from logic. You can’t get rid of the women, Paul, who want to fight to see their men succeed, not be forced by their own governments and feminists, to fail.
After all, it’s not “you” any of us are here for. It’s our brothers, our fathers, our husbands and our sons. Your rants can not take away our love for them or our resolve to do good by them.
In closing, it would appear the feminist has achieved her purpose where you are concerned. You’re as hateful led as they are!
“you are attempting to make an enemy out of those who wish to see you succeed.”
You don’t want to see me succeed. You want me to toe the line so you can put your yoke back around my neck because you realized you can’t pull your own obese weight alone.
Righteous anger begets justified hatred.
Fuck off.
This site is “A Voice for Men”,period, not “A Voice for Some Men.” This isn’t a semantic trap. If you want to stand by this, fine, otherwise, realize that you’ll get called on it if you don’t. You might have to accept that tradition has become part of the problem. Stop and think about this before you storm off in a tiff out of anger at Paul.
As it is though, I do see here that you’re the founder of this site, so I will go ahead and leave. Certainly, I wont remain where I’m unwanted.
I’ll admit this at first had me a bit confused, since my definition of a traditional woman is different. And after reading the comments I see that I’m not the only one who had a different meaning in their head.
When I hear traditional marriage, I’m picturing the man working while the woman cleans, cooks, raises children, maintains the house (in my opinion she should know how make minor repairs on her own), brings in extra cash in any from-home job she can do, and essentially makes sure that when the man comes home he can relax and have dinner without having to lift a finger for the rest of the day.
My question, is whether I am correct in reading this as essentially an attack on any woman that is a house-wife and stay-at-home mother, because from the majority of the comments that’s the impression I am getting.
I am not here to earn anyone’s “approval”. Who’s approval am I allegedly trying to earn? A bunch of faceless usernames? No, I am here because I sincerely believe in the cause that this site is fighting for. Because feminism has always seemed downright unnatural and ridiculous to me.
But, apparently the fact that I have a vagina means that I couldn’t possibly mean what I say. Which is funny, because that assumption is the exact thing most of the women in the videos on YOUR site argue against. This idea that a female who supports mens rights is only doing it for male approval or her own selfish gain.
I was ecstatic about this site and organization, but it seems my support is not welcome.
“Traditional” women are just lazy parasites.
That’s what the feminists said, and look where we are.
It pains me to spew supposed “enlightened” men spew feminist indoctrination when it suits their own needs and purposes.
Would you want to have your wife work full-time for a bit of extra money, knowing full well that your neighbors have no source of income, and are starving?
“Finally, feminists, with tiresome frequency, like to point out that women, even fifty years ago, were often forced to retire from their jobs to make way for the men if they became pregnant. And feminists have used this fact for 30 years as an example of oppression and discrimination.
But it was absolutely the right thing to do.
Can you imagine what would have happened to society – and to its women! – if millions of unemployed men had been roaming the streets with nothing to do, with nowhere to go, with no money to pay for the bills for their families, their children and their sweethearts, while, among their very own neighbours, there were husbands and wives who BOTH had jobs and were doing very well thank you.
Society would have lived its life completely enmeshed in crime, violence and mayhem.”
http://www.angryharry.com/esDidWomenReallyWantToGoOutToWork.htm
Personally,I don’t care what living arrangements two people make. Do I think all housewives are useless and unproductive? No,but a lot of them are. Do I think all career women are stingy,bossy,hateful cunts and bad mothers? No,but many of them are.
What is important to me is that the responsibilities,and the punishments, don’t always fall on male shoulders and that no matter what women decide to do, they stop martyring themselves in the public eye over how “haaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrdddddd” it is. Men don’t get to complain. Neither do you.
Go on and curse me, it changes nothing.
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LOL. I liked Mighty Mouse as a kid. And excellent response.
Here’s what your wife can do to you any time she wants sport:
http://judgybitch.com/2013/01/28/this-is-what-domestic-violence-looks-like/
You might also find this helpful:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/steven-crowders-naive-and-insulting-marriage-arguments/
You may say “I trust her she would never do something like that.” Do you have any idea how many men are dead, in jail, or completely financially and emotionally broken because they said that?
Maybe one day you’ll figure it out, when it happens to a man you care about.
I love the fact that I answered your comment a long time before you wrote it.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/an-open-letter-to-william-bennett/
By the way, I was around when there were fault-based divorce laws. You know what happened? People just lied and made claims of abuse. You need to address far far more than just no-fault divorce before any man should believe anything you suggest.
Ok then. Enjoy loneliness, masturbation & WOW.
“The bible says that it is the responsibility of the man to provide for his family. The woman’s place is at home taking care of the kids & her husband.”
Well in case you didn’t know it…the law in your country says that is oppression by you (a man) and that the woman decides. You have no say in it. If she finds a bible thumper with a larger penis/wallet than you she could tell the local police that you are an abusive control-freak, knock a hole in the wall and say you did it in one of your control-freak rages, show the police an email she said she found in your sock drawer proclaiming your sexual lust for your pastor, get a restraining order, go to a women’s shelter with the kids, clean out your bank account, and leave you a Dear Jerk letter on your empty pillow.
But I am sure you will enjoy masturbation too as you cry at night in your lonely room of the home that she will be soon taking possession of with the help of the free legal aid she will get and dirty advice from the local woman’s shelter on how to clean you out and discard you like a piece of garbage.
Thanks. Sure Will!
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Compete with real men? In what ways? And please, tell us all what makes a man “real”? You seem to fancy yourself to be an authority on what all men should be, so quit vomiting out generalities like “real” and explain what the fuck it means.
I am sure you will get right on it.
Talk about awkward pauses. Pfft.
Looking forward to “competing” to the death for a woman who’ll use you until you’re frail and no longer useful and then kick you into the grave, are you? In nature, that’s what happens to all “alphas” by the way. The alpha/beta paradigm is a poor fit for describing humans and always has been. But hey, if it’s how you want to live, well, enjoy that I guess.
What “tradition” did that come from anyway? It’s certainly not biology, and it’s certainly not in the Bible, or any major religious text I’m aware of, nor is it how any large scale civilization I’m aware of ever worked, so where are you getting it from? Just curious.
Mmmmm, perhaps you are replying to a “kicker” rather than a “kickee” here Dean.
If my status as a human being is dependent on my ability to sacrifice on the behalf of a woman then I don’t wish to be a “real man”.
You are a coward.You don’t s eek to develope an identity of your own . You’ll sacrifice individuality if it means you can get a pat on the head from traditonalist whores who believe it is it is their birthright to pop out babies and occasionally sweep the floor.
A non-traditional woman is one who shares in her husbands concerns not just her own.
Well, now we know what the girl in Johnny Blank’s story did: She cleaned out his bank account.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2293284/Toby-Hayden-spared-jail-beating-Loretta-Butterworth-card-declined-cash-machine.html?ICO=most_read_module
This is disgusting.
This is disgusting
What is?
The assumption that women who he knows very little about are inherently lazy wastes of space just because they are women.
I am a traditional house wife, who shops at the mall (well when I can afford it.. mostly i go to thrift shops and ebay though, and runs to the supermarket).. so this letter is directed at me. It is good to know that you see right though me. I am not a feminist and actually hate what feminism has done for people like me. I want to say a few things in response to your sentiment.
You say that traditional housewives are no longer needed because our job is sooo easy now and that you can keep a house clean in under 10 hours a week and that we are only very busy when the kids are small. I say that the work place for men traditionally was not air-conditioned offices where you check in at 9 and out at 5pm.
Second being a traditional wife does not mean that I bring in no money at all. Currently it is true lol, I bring in no money.. but this is not my intention forever and it has not been the case for the many traditional wives that I know. Show me any women who has not brought in money ever?? Even traditional wives bring in a little money from time to time. But it is not their focus or their primary role. We also ”bring in” some money by cooking, shopping at the market in the dead hours..so we can get really good deals. Picking up the kids. And not everything can be counted in terms of money.
Some couple (like us) want more for their kids. We want that someone is there for them everyday who we can trust to insure that things are going well in their lives, that problems are caught etc.
In the end you are right about the fact that I am not fighting against feminism for men, I am doing it for women, and for family life. But mostly for women, so that my daughter can live in a world where she can find a man to support that fact that she is a woman. A man who will support her need for flexibility in her career life so that she can prioritize their family, so that she can breastfeed and bond with her children the way I have bonded with mine. So that she can rest when pregnant.
I am a traditional wife, hate me all you want. I also used to run a business and I had a very good job when we were newly married and I am currently working on starting another business. And yes I am a bit lazy sometimes, but taking care of 2 kids is not as easy as it looks, not when you do it properly. What I do everyday takes as much from me, if not more, than any job I ever had. And I have had a lot of jobs.
Well I support your movement in any case. It would benefit me for society to accept men as men. So I support you. You do not support me, supporting you, and think I am in it simply to be lazy and have a slave, but well that is life. If anything I think the reason I am a traditional wife is because my mom was and I appreciated everything that she did. Every meal, every pick up and every time she was just there. I honestly never met these lazy sponging traditional wives.. but well.
I guess some people just see things differently, but if you knew my family, or lived my upbringing you would see this issue completely different
You completely misunderstand the views of the MHRM.We believe that men should be able to be whoever the fuck they want,and to us it doesn’t matter if that means masculine or hypo-masculine
And being masculinity has nothing to do with gynocentrism so you’ll be hardpressed to find any “manly” men here who will protect and provide for women so they can get pussy once in a while.Our biology has tricked men into thinking that being masculine is synonymous with being a self sacrificing doormat.
by men being men, I just mean that men should be respected and valued for the contribution that they can make to family life. I just hate the idea a woman can have kids and care for them on her own. Yes woman can do this, but it should not be glorified as it is not the best way to raise children. I am not saying that traditional marriage is the best way but both parents need to be involved in a child’s life, and if not both parents then positive role models from both sexes should be present. Feminism preaches that women do not need a man. I come from a place (Jamaica) where fathers were not present for almost 90% of the population. And it has taught me that families need men. I do not care if you are manly or not but if you are a man find a way to be a positive role model to your children and know that she can not raise the kids well without support and your presence.
also you are totally right, I know nothing about the views of the people here, in time maybe I will know more
“men should be respected and valued for the contribution that they can make to family life.”
What about non-family life? Life in general? Their own lives? Their friends’ lives?
” I just hate the idea a woman can have kids and care for them on her own. Yes woman can do this…”
No, women cannot. That’s another feminist lie. They need assistance, from their extended families, from their friends, from the government.
Keep reading. We expose many feminist lies here. If you really disagree with feminism, there’s a lot you can learn here. If you’re a troll you won’t like it here. If you’re not a troll, welcome.
@ Paul
I realize I’m a tad late to the party, but I have just recently found the forum. And I was enjoying it until I found this post. If you have made a full retraction since, please send me the link. Otherwise my sojourn is definitely over.
Where to begin with this absurdity.
“..female elitist defending the traditional power to enslave men to your needs, desires & whims”
To think a person fighting Feminism actually made this statement. Simply laughable. You’ve just repeated the exact definition of Patriarchy, but simply swapped the sexes! I don’t need to explain just how retarded it is, as you are well aware why its feminist equivalent is also.
To describe the relationship in a traditional family between a husband and his wife by making the analogy of “slaves willing to die to protect their masters” is, again, to repeat another central mantra of Feminism, just in reverse. How on earth you missed these ironies is beyond me. The idea of ‘indentured slave-to-master’ is so absurd I can’t be bothered wasting time explaining why. On a side note however, if you’re NOT willing to die to protect your wife and family, you’re a coward plain and simple.
You claim traditional women:
- work simply in their “self-interest alone”
- want nothing more than “free labor and protection” to keep themselves on their “bon-bon fattened ass”
- are “defending nothing more than their free ride”‘
- “lavish” themselves with “trivial desires”
- behave with a “childish frivolity”
- and in conclusion, are simply an “utter waste of human space”
The stupidity in these remarks can only be explained by an irrational anger. Why you have it I don’t know. In your particular case, I’m starting to suspect you do indeed have issues with women in general as your opponents claim. It is infuriating to hear the lack of gratitude from Feminists, when they claim that all the husbands of history were oppressing their wives, even as they worked and died for them. It is equally infuriating to hear this arrogant drivel regarding the wives and mothers of history.
.. I intended to continue ranting, but I don’t think I will bother. I already suspected your motivation for AVFM was not pro-men at all, but rather anti-feminist, which is a different thing altogether, and this article confirms it. While I agree with the anti-feminist position in itself, it cannot act as your motivation or objective, otherwise your so-called ‘mens rights’ group will ultimately achieve nothing.
Ciao.
If that’s too hard for you to grasp, you won’t grasp what we’re about here. If you thought the goal of this site was merely to be “against feminism,” you were mistaken. You can find plenty of that. Being against things is easy.
But here’s the truth: conservative traditionalists (and I grew up in just such a family–anti-feminist to the core) do a great job of talking about men and their responsibilities and their need to “man up” and sacrifice for women, but are damn near completely silent about what women owe men in return and women’s need to take responsibility for their lives and their actions. We’ve had decades now of “conservative” women talking down feminism, but even if you look at what they say, they’re almost invariably talking about how women actually have it better than men and how young men who don’t measure up to their standards are “failing to launch” or are “losers” or whatever.
If you are “anti-feminist” but you have nothing to say about what women owe men and what women in general, not just feminism but women as a whole, owe to men, and what their contribution to and responsibilities to a relationship are, then you aren’t much of any different from the feminists so far as we can tell. Both attitudes are shamelessly gynocentric; traditionalist women want to hang on to Female Privilege because they recognize it’s a pretty good deal, but they don’t talk about what women’s responsibilities and obligations to men are at all; feminists everything good that comes with being male but none of the bad. In both cases, neither is thinking of the welfare of men and boys at all, except in the context of how useful men and boys can be to women.
Traditionalism: Women are weak – proceeds to give them special treatment and benefits.
Feminism: Women are weak because they are oppressed – proceeds to give them special treatment and even more benefits.