David Futrelle- Covered in Pin Feathers and Clucking

I know, I know, the guy is kinda like a zit that won’t pop or respond to Clearasil. And I know that this quisling is supposed to be in the rear view mirror at this point, but he has raised his empty head for one last stab at mediocrity.

It seems now, after publicly agreeing to, and participating in a debate on domestic violence, he now wants all evidence he ever participated in said debate removed from this website. To wit, he just left the following in the comment section:


You do not have my permission to post my debate contributions on your site any longer. Since you do not have legal ownership of any of my writings, I expect you to take them down immediately.

I will put my debate contributions up on my own site. You will be free to link to them, of course, and say anything you want about them.

I wrote you about this before, and got no response. I expect a response this time.

By the way, this was the general tone of his emails whenever he had an issue with anything. Arrogant and demanding.

And of course I gave him my response in the comments. :)

Thing is, readers, this debate, which I invested considerable time and unparalleled talent in putting together, is now, in it’s complete form, my intellectual property.  As Manboobz voluntarily submitted writing is now inextricably tied to mine in the form of debate, removing one would essentially destroy the other.

That would represent a significant loss to me.

As you can see in the comments, if you are so inclined, I have offered Mr. Boobz an arrangement, fully detailed, for compensation that I think is very appropriate.

While he thinks it over, let it be known now that any blogger in the sphere, MRA or otherwise, has my permission to repost this debate in full on their blog or website. I would appreciate a link back to AVfM in consideration, but I am not requiring it if you are not so disposed.

I am changing the current headline on the debate to reflect Manboobz name in full, as this will help anyone find the debate who does a search on his name. May I be so bold as to request those that repost the debate to use the title I provided? I am also killing the links to his site in the debate.  As we pass this around, there is no point in boosting his search results back to his blog.



  • Peter Clifford

    Now J. Durden is copping it!

    • Eff’d Off

      …do something nice for everyone like…..

  • Peter Clifford

    I’m tumbing up everyone to COMBAT what FUTRELLE is doing

    • Eff’d Off

      ….stop taking illegal drugs or start taking the prescription ones because…

  • Peter Clifford

    Look futrelle::

    You either PISS OFF or maybe you would like me to Ring a Q.C. about you and get your Internet account banned for LIFE!!

    • Eff’d Off

      ….every sincere MRA thinks you absolutely suck !

  • Tim

    That said, I think it is time to dog-pile on the cripple, and use his lameness to show to the world just how lame the ideology he adheres to and attempted to represent really is.

    Count me in, Zed. As in the movie ‘Gladiator’ when no one believed that slaves could destroy their opponents in the coliseum, so it is here. MRA’s are the proverbial David against the Feminazi Goliath Matrix, and Paul has chopped the limbs off of one their supplicants. It’s not yet time for a gentlemanly pause. I say we dogpile this loser and let everyone know how dissatisfied we are with the state of affairs; and that simply judging the consequences alone of DV, in isolation of all other factors, is the work of highly biased ideologues who do not seek the truth, but rather, a scapegoat: the human male.

    Consequentialism defined: those moral theories which hold that the consequences of a particular action form the basis for any valid moral judgment about that action, or create a structure for judgment.

    I suggest anyone look this up and let it sink in for awhile, because this is what we are up against. Can the moral worth of an action be judged on it’s intent or it’s consequences? Futrelle is a consequentialist; he couldn’t give a rat’s ass what the context is.

    In fact, gender ideologues and feminists don’t care, either.

    Which is why we need to kick this guy around for awhile, and make an example of him.

  • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/the-domestic-violence-debate-guide/ Denis

    Two excellent articles written by Paul on Domestic Violence and Criminal Injustice.

    Too much commentary on relatively unimportant and minor actors in the grand scheme of things. We need to change the attitudes of the uninformed and politically correct public. Debating with a minor feminist and then continuing in an exchange of insults doesn’t get that job done.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    @ Denis,

    Agreed. And thank you. I need a couple of days off. STILL dealing with these kidney stones, on meds, blah, blah, blah. But I am sure this will blow over, and I am not sure what else I could do to keep the momentum on this issue anyway.

  • Peter Clifford

    @ Paul,

    Frigging kidney stones they hurt like hell Lets hope this blows over BTW I think there are a few trolls on here pressing the thumbs down buttons on most people here!

  • Peter Clifford

    Males are happy to kiss
    Friday, October 29, 2010 » 10:18am

    A new study says heterosexual male students are more comfortable kissing their male friends than ever before.

    British university students now see nothing wrong with showing friendship to another man through a kiss on the lips.

    Researchers at the University of Bath have found 89 per cent of men at two UK universities said they were happy to kiss another man on the lips through friendship.

  • Theodore Labadie

    Dude, I’m beginning to think the troll is you.

  • Peter Clifford

    @Theodore Labadie,

    Well, well this is a turn of Interesting events so now you ADMIT you were dissing my posts Dude I have been giving your posts a thumbs up HOW DARE YOU say I’m the troll when all I’ve ever tried to be here is friendly to all except feminists and manginas

    Oh and if you’re concerned about the post above here is the link::


    there you go and NO the troll is David futrelle get it right he doesn’t post he just sits there untill the website resets and tick on the thumbs down button.

  • Peter Clifford

    Well if that’s the way you feel that’s your problem MISTER LABADIE! I will not tolerate abuse from the likes of you! I hope the AVFM website and other mens rights websites expand and it gets better from now on until we have a “fair playing field”

    I doubt I will be posting anything Much here again!

    If anyone of you (including Paul Elam) wish to contact me the address is fr33kSh0w2012@yahoo.com.au I am not posting here offering my TIME to be abused and contested by people like you labadie GOOD DAY!

    I’m now Highly Irritated!!

  • Theodore Labadie


  • Peter Clifford

    Oh so you want to be friends now? make up your mind will you and NO i would never kiss a man on the lips YECK! sorry not that way inclined!

    I am 27 years old i live and was born in Australia and yes Australia is the FEMINAZI CAPITAL of THE WORLD!

    • Eff’d Off

      Holy Crap !

      You mean we live on the same land mass ?

      On behalf of my country I deeply apologise for this… thing that thinks Mr Futrelle has been the only one down voting him.

      (Hands cupped to mouth) We “bruvvers” have been thumbing you down because you carry the flag for lollipop-eyed bow spinning clowns. …not us.

      I for one can’t down vote this twerp Peter C. fast enough !

      • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

        He’s long gone now, already been banned.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam


    Chill dude.

  • Peter Clifford

    Thanks Paul, but I don’t like accusations where there shouldn’t be any

  • http://feminismreview.blogspot.com Feminism Review

    I’ve mirrored the debate here, with a link back: http://feminismreview.blogspot.com/2010/10/dv-debate-david-futrelle-fulminates.html
    You performed admirably. I’d have to disagree with some of the MRA reception towards this debate in that it accomplished nothing. I read a number of supportive comments (towards you or even MRAs in general) from passive observers or perhaps even disillusioned feminists on Futrelle’s blog. This might indicate that an informed, sober debate is the high-profile way to engage feminism, as they’ll often have similar ‘meltdowns’ and back out when their research is exposed as flawed and their methods as questionable.
    While articles are excellent for informing and educating MRAs, debates – online and perhaps even in the public sphere – are the best way to win new supporters to our cause IMHO.

  • Theodore Labadie

    Yes, which is why I originally suggested Youtube. Futrelle didn’t want Youtube, and his reason now is obvious, but other debaters in future may not be so reluctant. A Youtube video does not need to be a video of the actual debater, only a recording of his voice with a static picture relevant to the debate–very easy to do with Movie Maker. People eat up Youtube like candy. And a vid can link back to the blog. Much more traffic.


    Peter Clifford

    Dude with faixfax at the helm.


    To Peter Clifford

    Archives of Sexual Behavour

    In this article, we combined data from 145 interviews and three ethnographic investigations of heterosexual male students in the U.K. from multiple educational settings. Our results indicate that 89%have, at somepoint, kissed another male on the lips which they reported as being non-sexual: a means of expressing platonic affection among heterosexual friends. Moreover, 37% also reported engaging in sustained same-sex kissing, something they construed as non-sexual and non-homosexual. Although the students in our study understood that this type of kissing remains somewhat culturally symbolized as a taboo sexual behavior, they nonetheless reconstructed it, making it compatible with heteromasculinity by recoding it as homosocial. We hypothesize that both these types of kissing behaviors are increasingly permissible due to rapidly decreasing levels of cultural homophobia. Furthermore, we argue that there has been a loosening of the restricted physical and emotional boundaries of traditional heteromasculinity in these educational settings, something which may also gradually assist in the erosion of prevailing heterosexual hegemony.

    Ref: http://www.ericandersonphd.com/journal-articles.php

    The study is a bit sus to say the least.Also you can download at the link above.

    One more thing as an MRA you must know you can NEVER thrust the media, always go to the original source.

  • Peter Clifford

    I hate the media they spin so much shit!

  • Theodore Labadie

    Of course, the true traditional heteromasculinity in English culture was rather affectionate. You only have to go back as far as say, Tolkien, to find its remnants. But something happened around about the time of the advent of feminism and the birth of sexology. Suddenly, men weren’t supposed to touch.

    Still, as E.M. Forrester wrote in Maurice, “England has always been disinclined to accept human nature.” That’s probably why it invented feminism in the first place.

  • Theodore Labadie

    sry it’s “Forrster”

  • Hugh

    Paul… I think you did an outstanding job. My view on what went down and future ‘debates’ though is this… no matter how absurd it might sound; please bare with me on my reasoning.

    If an idiot like David wants to have another debate…. he needs to have it with somebody like Tara Palmatier. The simple reason is this…. She is a WOMAN who GETS IT. And as long as we have a few educated women who are actually on our side, who can put attention seeking male whores like David in their place…. the better it actually is for all of us MEN who know what’s going down. Even if it was coincidence or not with her recent post concerning male abuse… I was glad to see such an ally lurking in the wings. Thank you Tara…

    Paul… again.. my hats off to you. Thank you for all the time you put into it even with your health issues. I know what it’s like to give it all you’ve got, even at the expense of one’s health….


  • mongo

    “Point being, that is, we can all recognize that this debate wasn’t going to change the minds of die-hards on either side – feminists will keep being feminists (and thinking they’re always right), and MRAs will keep being MRAs (and thinking they’re always right). To an outside observer, both sides look eerily familiar.”
    -J. Durden

    I can’t say that looking eerily like Feminism bothers me all that much.

    Up until recently, there was only one army in this war. I’d rather look like the enemy, than look like a no-show. In wars, there are striking similarities between both sides – probably far more than there are differences. But the war is about those few differences. Those differences remain, regardless of a few unavoidable, and cosmetic, similarities.

  • http://thecrimsonvoid.wordpress.com J. Durden


    Fighting fire with fire on this one isn’t going to do much except grant some angry guys some catharsis. One of the things I’ve appreciated about the MRA community was its general capacity for reasoned and articulate discourse. Then you look at guys like Peter Clifford and the horde of talentless trolls (trolling is an art form, damn it!) on the manboobz blog and you can throw reasoned and articulate discourse out the window.

    As you said, there *can* be similarities between enemies, but the differences are the most important part. One of those important differences in this context, for me at least, is the exaltation of logos above pathos in public discourse. Flinging ad hominems around and calling everybody a cunt, while cute, doesn’t seem like it’s going to do much to advance any kind of agenda worth advancing. (And as an active duty Marine and fan of military history, I can tell you that armies don’t always look “strikingly similar.”)

  • Peter Clifford

    Yes and I can tell you getting shot is an absolute bitch you drop like a sack of shit and the area feels ICY HOT and then BOILING HOT and your whole body feels ITCHY and STIFF all over while the effected area then feels like someone poured a combination of hydrocloric ACID and RED CHILLI PEPPER JUICE MIXED TOGETHER! not fucking nice at all betcha J. Durden can attest to that being a marine he would have got shot heaps of times and he would have KEWL GNARLY SCARS to PROVE IT!

  • Peter Clifford

    Love the zelda avatar Mr Durden!

  • Peter Clifford

    Hey Mr Durden have you heard of Duncan O’Finioan, Super Soldier and Psychic spy?

  • http://thecrimsonvoid.wordpress.com J. Durden

    The Zelda avatar is a sort of scar in its own way. A funny little reminder.

    I am not familiar with Duncan O’Finioan, but I’m looking him up now.

  • witman

    Are there two Peter Cliffords on this thread?

    • Eff’d Off

      Yes, and they are both in the same head having some sort of weird fight as to who is the real one. that guy is a paddock short of a roo.

  • http://hagueabductions.com Carlos

    No surprise here. Just a continuation of the long and sordid history of historical revisionism by feminists. This debate was unfair from the begining of course. Paul kept using things like logic, reason, objectivity, statistics, science and “facts,” …when we all know that those are just patriarchial tools of male hegemony and oppression. Manboobz, on the other hand, used the more valid and more inclusive “women’s ways of knowing” by focusing on his subjective feelings, intution and listening to the inner voice of his mangina.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    @ Carlos

    Suitable for framing.

  • http://www.falserapesociety.blogspot.com E. Steven Berkimer

    Point being, that is, we can all recognize that this debate wasn’t going to change the minds of die-hards on either side

    J. Durden,

    I don’t normally comment here, but I read that and had one thought:

    For those who stop by here regularly, the debate wasn’t about MRA’s or Feminists, but was aimed at those who are on the fence. Debates don’t target the die hards, as they are there, regardless of what is actually said. I would be willing to wager, that Paul’s levelheaded approach with the links/proof/stats (etc.), backing him up, swayed many more people thank Futrelle’s meltdown. Futrelle came across as a spoiled brat who didn’t get his way. Paul came across as an intelligent and informed writer.

    You are quite correct that all armies aren’t the same. But that doesn’t mean you can’t have your own squad that mimics the enemy, if for nothing else, infiltration and sabotage. They can do far more damage, than most are willing to admit.

  • http://thecrimsonvoid.wordpress.com J. Durden

    E. Steven Berkimer,

    My reservations are a direct result of sharing this debate with people who are on the fence and gauging their reactions. I haven’t been browsing the comments religiously, but has there been anyone that came forward and said “You know, I was really on the fence about this, but you’ve convinced me”? Obviously Futrelle has a much smaller readership, so you’re not going to see the same volume of gloating and high-fiving and victory celebrations, but you do see the exact same character of those festivities. And, keeping those on-the-fencers in mind, it really didn’t help when a bunch of trolls decided to flood Futrelle’s blog and basically hurl insults and epithets.

    I understand very well that the objective of a debate is never to persuade your opposition – I debated competitively at high level for a number of years, occasionally serving as a judge. I am reticent to provide this link, because I wrote the post while in the throes of a manic episode, but I discuss at length what debate is really all about. There’s also some military “strategery” in there to, re: infiltration and sabotage.

  • http://www.the-spearhead.com/ zed

    My reservations are a direct result of sharing this debate with people who are on the fence and gauging their reactions. I haven’t been browsing the comments religiously, but has there been anyone that came forward and said “You know, I was really on the fence about this, but you’ve convinced me”?

    To me, one of the saddest things about the MM is that we have basically spent the past 40 years arguing over “strategy”, and spending a lot more time worrying about the “fence sitters” than paying attention to the ground that was being gained by our enemies. It seems in general that the longer a man stays at this, the more willing to go on the offensive he becomes, as well as the more willing he becomes to be offensive. Paul is something of a case study of a man who has turned being offensive into an art form.

    Many years ago I gave up trying to convince anyone of anything, and decided to let the family courts and the behavior of women convince any man who could look at social conditions today and still deny that there is a serious problem. The entire dialogue has broken wide open in the last 6-7 years, which I attribute entirely to a few aggressive men who have stopped worrying about fence sitters, jumped in the ring, and started breaking a few noses. Go to any lame stream media site and read the comments on any article about a subject related to the gender war. You will see hundreds of men who have never even heard of the MM covering our points chapter and verse.

    The momentum is swinging against the feminitwits. There will always be holdouts like Futrelle, but public humiliation and outing him as a complete loser will skunk him completely and make people want to avoid him. I recently saw an article by a self-described “4th wave feminist” which said that describing oneself as a feminist was a good way to lose friends, relationships, and become socially ostracized. Of course, this woman simply wanted the best of cafeteria feminism, but she is far from alone among young women who do NOT want that label applied to them.

    No football team ever comes out of the locker room at half time down 5 touchdowns and pulls their punches out of fear of losing the “fence sitting” fans. Women are beginning to wake up to how badly the feminitwits have screwed the pooch for them, and in another 5 years there will be women slapping anyone who insults them by calling them a “feminist.”

    Manginas like Futrelle may stubbornly hang on a little longer, while all his femmie buddies keep putting him the LJBF zone. No one comes off the fence to hang with the losing side.

    That is why Men are Going Their Own Way. You are free to pursue your favorite strategy, but almost no man has listened to any other man for the past 40 years, and I have no reason to believe they are suddenly going to start now.

  • http://thecrimsonvoid.wordpress.com J. Durden

    If the goal is to publicly humiliate idiots for being idiots, I find it far more effective to bait them into making themselves look stupid than to hurl a bunch of insults and label them as stupid. Most reasonable people can ferret out an idiot when they see one – there’s rarely a need to get belligerent about it. One of my favorite games to play is the one where you take an opponent’s hypothesis/argument/point and pretend as though you accept it, and then take it to its logical conclusion. “You’re right, using dictionaries to define words is an awful idea! I’m much more confident that I’ll get an unbiased opinion from someone who receives millions of dollars from advocacy groups to prove an agenda. Thank you for enlightening me and bringing me out of my ignorance.”

    I’m not saying we shouldn’t go tustle with feminists – I do it all the time, on Reddit, Facebook, forums, and in real life – but I am saying there are better and worse ways of going about it.

  • GrimmNoir

    Read the debate….
    Good work, Paul. You were Ike to David’s Tina.
    I went to his site. Boring as hell. In fact, the only two articles that had the most comments were the ones where he was calling out the MRA’s to debate him.
    So yeah…
    He’s definitely doing this shit for attention. It’s only way he can actually get traffic for his wack assed site.