prison cell

UK MP takes a stand for male prisoners

Men face sex discrimination in UK justice system says MP

Male offenders in the UK are being discriminated against on the grounds of their gender according to the backbench MP Phil Davies.

Speaking in a debate of female offenders in parliament this week Mr Davies said:

“There appears to be sex discrimination in the sentencing of offenders, but the people being discriminated against are men not women. Women cannot have it both ways. They cannot expect to be treated equally in everything in society except when it comes to being sentenced by the courts for the crimes that they commit.

“People may want to argue that it is reasonable for women to be given lighter sentences than men, and that it is right that fewer women are sent to prison than men. That is an argument for another day, but at least when we have these debates about sentencing for men and women let us stick to the facts as they are and not what we would like them to be.”

The Member of Parliament for Shipley in Yorkshire went on to say:

“Men are treated more harshly by the courts than women. For every single category of offence, for all ages and in all types of court, men are more likely to be sent to prison than women. There is not one blip anywhere. For every single offence, for every age, in every type of court, women are less likely to be sent to prison than men.

“The argument goes that this is all about women; it is not all about women. Let us not focus just on the very small proportion of women who are in prison. Let us also think about all the men, too. The point of this debate is to make people aware that where there are issues they apply equally to men, and that some of the issues are not even issues at all because the facts do not back them up.”

Mr Shipley is rated by the Conservative Home Blog as one of his party’s most rebellious MPs, has been described by political commentator Peter Hain as “a genuine conservative” and is the parliamentary spokesman for the Campaign Against Political Correctness.

MP Phil Davies

The Men’s Network is concerned with helping every man and woman reach their full potential – including offenders – and we have previously highlighted the issues facing the male prison population on this blog (See our short statistical post asking why are so many men imprisoned and our news item about mentally ill men stuck in ‘Victorian lunatic asylums‘.

What Mr Davies’ speech highlights is our collective tendency to view the world through the filter – women HAVE problems and men ARE problems – and he provides some startling research and analysis from the House of Commons Library to challenged the commonly held belief that women offenders are treated unfairly compared to male offenders.

It is not clear, however, whether Mr Davies is genuinely interested in tackling the inequalities experienced by men in the prison system or more interested in winning an argument against those campaigning for a more lenient treatment of women offenders.

The thrust of his passionate speech in parliament – 5 myths about female sentencing – seems to be making the case that ‘women are problems too’ more than it is making the case that men who offend have problems, too.

And when you consider problems male prisoners are dealing with it seems evident that time spent supporting boys in care, fatherless boys, boys excluded from schools, boys with mental health disorders and boys with learning difficulties has the potential to deliver huge benefits in reducing the male prison population in the long run.

To see the key points and statistics highlighted by Mr Davies in our post outlining his Five Myths About The Sentencing Of Female Offenders.

Thanks to James Williams of Men’s Matters for bringing this speech to our attention. You can meet James at The Men’s Rights Networking Event and Discussion on the theme ‘How Do We Put Men’s Issues On The Political Agenda?’ on Thursday, November 1 - click here to find out more now.

About Glen Poole

Glen Poole was the PR Director for Fathers 4 Justice in the UK and instrumental in putting the campaign for Fathers' Rights in the national and international headlines. He has since shifted his focus from Fathers Rights campaigning to transfomring public services for men and boys focusing on key issues like fatherhood, men's health, male suicide, boys' education, male mentoring, rites of passage and violence against men and boys

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  • Roderick1268

    Bloody great stuff,
    real issues discussed in the Houses Of Commons. Suck that up Harriet Harman and all the United Kingdoms £££££££££ Woman’s Racket industries.
    The MRM is pushing its way into the worlds conciseness.

    Rod mra-london.

  • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

    It starts slow, and it builds, and builds, and builds.

    Just looking at this particular British politician tells me what I suspected: he’s probably in his early 40s. OK, I just looked online: he’s exactly 40.

    Whether he’s a radical in other areas or not, whether voters punish him or his party in the next election or not, he’s part of a rising trend: those who were born around the time he was, and later, grew up seeing the culture of misandry around them. As the World War II generation fades, and their children are retiring, those of us who inherited the shit they left us will be cleaning it up.

    This is a matter of exponential growth. Two years from now it will be bigger than it is now. Four years from now, it’ll be bigger still.

    Not everyone who says what this British MP says will ever self-identify as an “MRA.” It doesn’t matter. What we talk about will indeed soon be intruding itself into the mainstream, whether the mainstream likes it or not.

    The times, they are a’changin’.

    • http://thereluctantmysogynist.blogspot.ca/ limeywestlake

      A-fucking-men, Dean.

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      Yessir, that was the whole purpose for AVfM. We are now show prep for “decent” society.

  • Merlin

    It’s been a man-bashing fest in the UK recently, as media turn up the heat on males with the help of the nasty little feminists. It’s been a full on assault from my own activism corner, sending many emails and posting many comments. At times it seems an up-hill struggle.

    This article, however, has brought a big smile to my face. It’s the news I wish to hear, being a UK resident.
    Phil Davies, is now someone I hope we see a lot more of when it comes to debunking feminist lies.

    Thanks for the article and research, Glen…nice one!

  • napocapo69

    good news…

  • Skeptic

    Bloody great!
    How about aVfM contact Phil Davies for a phone / skype interview? Or at least contact him to give him moral support?

  • Augen

    Very gratifying to read this

  • Aimee McGee

    Woohoo! Here I was thinking about the lack of discussion about men being discriminated against in prison, and an MP raises the topic.

    Related topic: seeking out UK MRAs who can help out on trying to get questions raised with all police and crime comissioner candidates, so we can determine if any have sympathy with mens issues. Look in the AVfM forum, a plan is forming. Either that or email/PM me or Seaforth

  • Ben

    I wish we had a Congressman in the US like that. Here, we could watch a two-week long Congressional debate about women being discriminated against in prison sentencing. The only arguments ever presented would probably be:

    1. What to do about the discrimination against women. (The conservatives and liberals would go back and forth over this one like a ping-pong game).

    2. Who is responsible for the discrimination against women. (There would be at least a million newspaper articles doing nothing but finger pointing).

    3. What new House Bills are to be introduced to curb the problem. (Politicians would try to come up the the sexiest-sounding Bills to protect these women so that they could be easily identified as “good men” and secure the women’s vote).

    However, not one Congressman would challenge the actual veracity of the claim about women’s prison discrimination itself. We just assume whatever Feminists say must be true here.

    I particularly like the line “Women have problems and men are problems”. The trouble is, 99.99% of people see no problem with this assertion, even when it spelled out for them so candidly. I could go around campus and repeat that quote and attempt to challenge it and the only response I would get would be a virulent “It’s true!” from all other male students. This is the filter through which every issue is viewed because it is what “feels good” to everyone.

    • Kukla

      I don’t think you ever will have a congressman in the US like that, and if you do he won’t be popular.

      I checked Obamas twitter last night and he panders to women like crazy.

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      Some time within the next few years, I predict we will.

      • Ben

        You give me some reassurance. What we need is somebody to run for Congress who was an MRA first and foremost, rather than a career politician who was groomed in the feminocracy, I think.

        Also, (slightly O.T.) I wanted to sign up to help this weekend very much but I am taking the Fundamentals of Engineering exam next week and I also have a test in a graduate-level Fluid Mechanics class, so I have no time at all unfortunately.

  • ChrisD

    What will be interesting is to see how this effects his election chances. I have a feeling that the powerful womens lobby will remove him, unless it is met with an equally powerful mens lobby of course.

    With that I would like to relate a story a friend recently told me. He works as a store detective, and he’s very good at grabbing shoplifters.

    There is a particular women who shoplifts often. She has a serious record for it, along with other acts of theft. Recently he caught her with a substantial amount of goods, totalling thousands. Obviously the police were called and as she was on probation they wanted to push for at least 1 year served in prison with a long probation after. Then they hit a problem……………….she is pregnant. So she got a suspended setence, no prison time, just probation and penalties.

    We need to change this system. Either a women should go to prison while pregnant or the sentence should be suspended until she has her child and then imprison her once it is born. I’m aware this isn’t a nice thing to do but lets face it, women like this are not goign to be good mothers anyway. The child would be better placed with a loving family while she serves her time.

    My friend has seen prolific male shoplifters get some serious sentences, the longest being 3 years of prison time. He has never seen a woman get more than 1 year in prison. Judges seem to favour probation.

    • Kimski

      “There is a particular women who shoplifts often. She has a serious record for it, along with other acts of theft.”

      You’re talking about the Queen, right? :)

      “People may want to argue that it is reasonable for women to be given lighter sentences than men, and that it is right that fewer women are sent to prison than men.”

      WTF?!
      Based on what?

      Nice to see someone starting to ask some serious questions, though. Perhaps, as Dean Esmay mentioned, we might be seeing a new generation of politicians entering the stage here, and I very much look forward to hearing what they bring to the table.

      There is a substantial amount of offsprings, from single mother households, that must be in their early 40’s by now. Some of them might hopefully choose to be politicians.

      • ChrisD

        Well as much as I dislike the royal family I cannot really accuse them of shoplifting. You don’t often see the queen in HMV tucking dvd’s into a tesco bag. Although that would be rather fantastic.

        I don’t think 40 year olds can be classed as a new generation, they’re still very behind the times. We are seeing one pretty brave man standing up to expose the obvious inequality. How long he’ll last now is the interesting thing.

        Would a child raised in a single mother household really be on our side? There is a good chance they could utterly hate their fathers and by extension all men.

        • Kimski

          I disagree with you on a couple of points here, starting with the “joke”.

          There has been consistent reporting on, and rumours about, Queen Elizabeth suffering from an inhereted kleptomania. It’s all very hush-hush, and they supposedly even have a man in her employment, who’s sole purpose is to walk behind her and put things back, or pay people for the things that disappear in her wake.

          Secondly, from a political standpoint, 40 years of age is very much a ‘new’ generation, but I agree it will be interesting to see how long he’ll last. I’m sure that at some point we will see a critical mass appearing, and one of these guys will last far longer, than anyone suspects in the opposing camp. It is just a matter of time now, because with a financial crisis and the lack of ressources looming on the horizon, feminism won’t be able to get any financial back up in a very short time.

          And, finally, I don’t know anyone from a single mother household, at my age, that shows that much respect for women, as they get older and start to understand how the world really works, and their own role in it, i.e. utilities and cannon fodder. From what I see, it is getting even worse with the younger generation, and you can’t really blame them. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out, that there are far more young men between the MRA’s, than us old farts from the 50’s and 60’s. There ought to be, anyway.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      There have been several high profile cases in the US where women got pregnant-for-the-trial.

      Diane Downs, who murdered her three children to keep a new boyfriend was a postal worker who literally knocked on a man’s door for sex while delivering mail so she could be pregnant for her murder trial.

      Lynndie England was an American servicewoman involved in the Abu Ghriab prison scandal who went to trial pregnant.

      Didn’t do either of them much good, as it turned out, which probably explains why this isn’t a popular way of getting away with murder in the US.

      Claiming you were molested as a child? Bingo! That’s the American “Get Out Of Jail Free” card, right Casey Anthony?

  • chris3337

    It s heartening to see one of the MRM beefs brought up in the British Parliament. What I was wondering was how the opposition feminist leader would argue against. It never fails to amaze me how self-centered and blinkered these peolpe are. I finally found the transcript of the debate. Just see how the female opposition try to argue against their own Justice Department statistics.

    Look at the debate here about 3/4 down the page startining at 2.30pm

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm121016/halltext/121016h0001.htm#12101636000001

    • BlueBlood

      Chris,
      I just had a good read of the debate. A few things really jump out. Firstly, those British MP’s are extremely well-spoken, classically trained debaters. They make blog commenters look like monkeys banging at a keyboard. Secondly, it was the same old defence; “You’re wrong because you’re wrong and I’m right. Women are good so you must be wrong, even though I’m the minister of the department that produced the statistics you’re quoting.”
      Very good link. …if you only click one link today, make it this one.

  • gwallan

    In an act of impropriety any woman involved must be viewed as a victim, even where that woman is the perpetrator.

    • John A

      Practically everyone is a perpetrator or victim to some extent. Generally speaking, criminals (at least the ones that get caught) are from underprivileged backgrounds. You can make them out to be what you want them to be, so it just comes down to who will get the most pity – a man or a woman? It’s great to see an elected representative calling this bs out.

  • JinnBottle

    Hey did I read – here – awhile back that there was actually a bill (is that what they’re called in England?) – to do away with incarceration punishment for *women* altogether – being seriously considered there?

    PS To Dean et al – glad to know there’ll be ops to help out with collective activism in the future. Thanx to “The Twelve” on this one.

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      Not precisely, but close. The basically already-existing de-facto sentencing discount women get has been rendered more formal policy:

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1311004/Judges-ordered-mercy-women-criminals-deciding-sentences.html

      • JinnBottle

        Thanx, Dean, read the article. Some encouragement in the fact that of the dozen or so Comments on it in the “Mail”, only one was misandric (specifically classist-misandric). I notice, too, that the 2 politically influential women cited both carry titles.

        L’dOL at some of the Brit slang epithets I’d never heard before.

  • http://none universe

    The following is fairly obvious but bears repeating nonetheless.

    The more people continue representing men’s issues/rights (those writing here, for ex.) the more safe it becomes for elected representatives to commence and continue representing what our thoughts and positions are.

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      Without question.

      And one of these days, without trying to offend anybody, I’m going to write a piece on why coming out of the closet publicly is probably a good idea. I know we all can’t, but the more of us who do the better.

      Out of the closets and into the streets, brothers. (Quote mine alert! Someone will say I just called for mass riots and destruction and wanton kitten eating!)

      • http://none universe

        Write away. I’m sure all could weather some mild crit.

        However, long term anonymity could be useful for some. Those with the most invested to potentially lose (not referring to myself) [but provide a blanket service in lieu]. Someway similar to an offshore holding.

      • http://thereluctantmysogynist.blogspot.ca/ limeywestlake

        I agree. Being out is important. I have a career position that could be harmed greatly by my MRA status, if someone wanted to spin it that way. However, I cannot keep who I am under wraps. I am a human rights activist after all.

        It really annoyed me when Manwomanmyth was threatened with legal action should he mention – or film – several MRAs in England. They were still too wrapped up in being good men, methinks.

        http://www.manwomanmyth.com/mens-rights-movement/ucl-debate-is-feminism-sexist-and-does-the-mrm-even-exist/

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          There is an ongoing effort to doxx MRAs. What better way to say “fuck you, come and get me you Stalinist pricks” than to doxx yourself?

          Maybe we should have an international MRA Coming Out Day. If a bunch of us do it at once, what are they gonna do?

          Hmm. It’s a thought….

          • http://thereluctantmysogynist.blogspot.ca/ limeywestlake

            A good thought. Maybe we could take mugshots of ourselves holding “I am an MRA” signs.

      • Aimee McGee

        Dean, was discussing the finer points of neck beards with the SO, and he suggests that Paul E has been lying to us all and instead eats Border Terrier pups and uses their skins as neck beards…

  • chris3337

    Mr Davies is going to get a lot of flack for coming out with the truth and even daring to challenge feminist factoids. Doing it in parliament is even worse and I think a first for any elected official in a western democracy.This is really great news.
    However there is alot of negative twitter activity from UK females in office. I think each one of us should shoot off a short email of support to him from which ever continent you’re on. We definitely want him to persist with his debunking of feminist statistics.

    Mr Phil Davies daviesp@parliament.uk

    • Skeptic

      Done.
      Thanks for providing the email link.

    • Kimski

      Done.
      This man deserves support from as many people from different nations as possible.
      Shoot him an email, he deserves it.

      And more Blog Wars:

      An old acquaintance of ours, Jenna Myers Karvunidis, recently wrote an article on SocialMediaWeek/Chicago, called: ‘The comment wars: when apologizing isn’t good enough for your haters.’, which Mr.Andybob rightfully described as ‘a masterpiece of self-serving revisionism’.

      http://socialmediaweek.org/chicago/2012/08/01/the-comment-wars-when-apologizing-isnt-good-enough-for-your-haters/#comment-688155623

      Well, It seems like Jenna Myers Karvunidis, besides being completely unable to learn from her mistakes to the point of blatant stupidity, also seems incapable of taking her own advise, as she has now replied to Mr. Andybob in a way that clearly shows that she feels no remorse over describing 99% of the male population as rapists, threaten a school to do her dirty bigoted work for her by excluding fathers from childcare, and calling male victims of female on male rape for sexual predators themselves.

      Those of you who do not remember this selfproclaimed feminist fascistoid hausfrau from her ramblings last year, can look up the details of her landing on Register-her.com, or click on her portrait here on the frontpage.

      Shoot mrs. Karvunidis an comment too, before they take down the article, or close down the ability to comment. I’m pretty shure she’s waited this long with her reply for that exact reason. She deserves a reply, too, and almost makes me miss old ‘Mikey’. At least ‘Mikey’s’ poems provided a much needed laugh, and she was just as crazy as they come. Jenna is just stupid, and self-righteously so.

    • Mike Brentnall

      Here’s mine:

      ” Dear Mr. Right Honourable Philip Davies

      Regarding your stand in Parliament, the “talking shop”, concerning unfair criminal sentensing by sex and the disparity between both men’s and women’s in frequency, duration and severity for similar crimes. As one, I very much appreciate the sensible boldness you displayed in the House on October 16, 2012. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm121016/halltext/121016h0001.htm#12101636000001

      I am a Canadian that reads an American web-site that recently featured an article on British politics at the working stages. The writer of the article, a Brit, handily addressed your stand-up service in setting the above mattered facts on a straighter path. Notwithstanding the irresponsibly unfaithful to ‘equality’ closing comments by one allegedly honourable Mrs. Grant. This being on record.

      Your intentions for the proper public address of sexual disparities may be different from those of men’s rights activist {MRAs} but I can assure you that several hundred, if not thousands, reading A Voice for Men {AVfM} now know of and hold your works in high esteem. AVfM and its many contributors voluntarily provide a service to humanity by addressing issues similar to your Tuesday House appeal and other neglected areas concerning males/men in an alleged age of equality. They welcome all who espouse reasoned fairness. http://www.avoiceformen.com/

      As I’m aware that many who speak of men’s concerns, who merely refute feminist claims are at times threatened with silently arranged dismissals from professional capacity and even death, I pray for your safety and continued success.

      Sincerely Yours
      Michael A. Brentnall ”

      Carbon copied to: the Canadian Prime Minister, my regional Member of Parliament (MP; federal), my regional Member of the Legislative Assembly (MLA; provincial), a regional municipal (city) Council Member, National Post (NP) columnist Barbara Kay, and NP letters editor.
      I’m sometimes known in my area for being outspoken on men’s issues. Hardly a secret since the late 1980s.

      Ah well, we’ll see what happens.

      • Skeptic

        Good e-mail Mike.

        Here’s mine –
        “Thank-you good Sir in taking a stand against feminist factoids about men’s and women’s prison sentences!”

        I placed the above sentence in the e-mail subject bar so it’s the first thing the reader sees about the e-mail. Then simply signed the e-mail with warm regards.
        That was yesterday.
        Today I got a response stating appreciation for the support.

        • Mike Brentnall

          Thanks Skeptic.
          Yours, employing brevity got results.
          Process noted.
          Maybe it’s best to send terse appreciative notes to politicians.

          Earlier this morning I too received a note of warm thanks.
          Either brief or longer, notes of praise are welcomed.
          All it takes is for one man positive event to occur. Then we act.
          After a while more of the same.

  • SteveR

    Well done Philip Davies for the guts and the brains behind his argument. Thanks AVFM for letting us know.

    (As always?) the Lady gets the last word: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant) “…whether the offenders are male or female. I welcome the constructive and knowledgeable contributions from all hon. Members this afternoon, as they have highlighted how important it is to continue to focus on responding to the specific circumstances of women offenders.”

  • Tawil

    It appears the sentencing disparity in the UK has been around for a long time- check out this description of gender bias in British criminal sentencing from 100 yrs ago (written 1908).

    See anything disturbing there?

    While I’m on the subject of that author here is a marvelous work he wrote in 1913 called ‘The Fraud of Feminism’.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

    Glen Poole,

    Thanks for this write. It’s a wonderful blanket of sunshine in these dank times and reminds us to think of what might just be pretty normal one day. That is for spheres of influence like MP Phil Davies actually speaking up for men and boys in the very public arena.

    On another note, you set the bar higher with your activities in England and remind us how it can be, one bloke at a time connecting with another.

    Rolling out an institutionalised change of thinking can only begin with networking, and thank goodness for the net, thank goodness for your “dabbling” in it.

    Bugger his any other other politics mate, he gets my attention, respect, and my damned vote.

  • freey

    Does anybody recall this from last year

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1350128/Tory-MP-Dominic-Raab-Feminists-obnoxious-bigots-men-raw-deal.html

    Mr Raab would appear to fit the demographic discussed above.

    That’s two.

    That’s a start and a licence for others to speak freely.

    I think that the cultural shift has taken place already but is only beginning to become visible via the MSM and “public” figures.

    There was also criticism of the expansion of the definition of the term “rape” in relation to the Julian Assange case on the part of George Galloway MP recently.

    Once the genie is out of the bottle they won’t be able to contain thorough examination of previously sacrosanct feminist “truths”.

    It could be that this shift has gone further than we imagine already but like an iceburg only a small percentage is currently visible.

    I understand that running into an iceburg really hurts.

    They are weighty things that take many years to form and that once moving their enormous mass can not be redirected.

  • freey

    On the subject of E. Belfort Bax’s “The Fraud of Feminism” perhaps we could have a centennial commemoration of its publication next year along the lines of “that’s what you get when you don’t listen”.

    • Tawil

      Well said. I wager the difference for his time is that he couldn’t get to a big enough listening audience. Now however we have the internet and every ‘Belfort Bax’ out there today can reach millions… the internet could be the game changer.

      PS. I just realized I placed the wrong URL above for his other book The Legal Subjection of Men. In that book we see the sentencing disparity in the UK has been around for at least a century.

      In particular see these two parts from that book, keeping in mind they were written in the year 1908:

      The Criminal Law
      The Civil Law

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      I am trying to check into the copyright issues on the book, but I would like to present it here, one chapter at a time.

      • Tawil

        Even today it makes for an arresting read, as good as anything we can churn out now.

        http://www.thefullwiki.org/The_Legal_Subjection_of_Men
        “This work is in the public domain in the United States because it was published before January 1, 1923. The author died in 1926, so this work is also in the public domain in countries and areas where the copyright term is the author’s life plus 80 years or less. This work may also be in the public domain in countries and areas with longer native copyright terms that apply the rule of the shorter term to foreign works.”

        Same applies to his other book ‘The Fraud of Feminism’ was also published before that date.

        http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Fraud_of_Feminism
        “This work is in the public domain in the United States because it was published before January 1, 1923. The author died in 1926, so this work is also in the public domain in countries and areas where the copyright term is the author’s life plus 80 years or less. This work may also be in the public domain in countries and areas with longer native copyright terms that apply the rule of the shorter term to foreign works.”

        I’m not sure how long it takes for a book to enter the public domain in the UK where it was written (Britain) but I assume 86 yrs since his death covers all countries.

        • Aimee McGee

          Tawil, I think it is only 75 in the UK from authors death.

          • dalriada

            It’s the life of the author plus 70 years in the UK. Copyright expired in the UK in 1996.

          • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

            It appears we are good on it here: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ15a.pdf

          • Aimee McGee

            Cheers dalrida, I’m terrible for remembering number details…glad other people do.

        • Sheldonshells

          wicked sweet! the Fraud of Feminism, I always wanted to read that.

  • cooterbee

    Wait! We are getting carried away by a development that though unusual is not especially positive. Though this conservative law giver is comparing male and female sentencing (unusual), he doesn’t seem to be calling for justice and humanity toward men, he just wants the barbarism extended toward women.

    By that line of reasoning, if there were a report that at some facility in the Maine penal system allowed some woman to be gang raped, brutally beaten and left for dead, that should make Vladek Filler and all of us happy.

    Calling for rivers of female blood to compliment the gross maltreatment of men isn’t good for men or anyone.

  • Dos

    Did noone else mentally puke reading the debate transcript? MP Phillip Davies did his homework and debated extremely well. But apparently only a couple of ‘his honourable friends’ appeared to give him the most minimal courtesy of acutally listening to what he said. Here is a quick (incomplete) list of the worst examples of cognative dissonance, selective hearing and hypocracy from within that debate.

    The following is in chronological order.

    P.D.: ‘“Of sentenced first-time offenders… a greater percentage of males were sentenced to immediate custody than females, (29% compared with 17%)…”
    10 seconds later…
    J.C.:”Women convicted of a first offence—the same offence as a man—are more likely to receive a custodial sentence. I do not think he has the figures for that.”
    About an hour later…
    P.D.:”…22% of female prisoners are in custody for up to 12 months…78% of the total female prison population… are serving much longer sentences for the most serious crimes…”
    P.D.:”It is said that 17,000 children are separated from their mothers… what about the estimated 180,000 children who are separated from their fathers who are in prison? In this age of equality, what about that much higher figure?…Two-thirds of [mothers] didn’t have their kids living with them when they went to prison.”
    J.C.: “Conversely, we know that they [women] are more likely than their male counterparts to be given a custodial sentence for their first offence…The majority of women in prison are serving short sentences of six months or less…”
    P.D.:”I can only conclude that the hon. Lady did not listen to what I said. The fact is, at any point in time, 78% of women in prison are serving a sentence of over one year.”
    J.C.:”Nearly 18,000 children are separated from their mothers every year by a prison sentence. Female offenders are often the primary or sole carer in a family… Some 66% of women in prison have dependent children under the age of 18.”
    Some 20 mins later…
    H.G.:”…it is important to be clear about how our sentencing framework is gender-neutral: everyone is absolutely equal before the law…we also need to remember that every offender who is brought before the courts is unique… [the courts] should consider the full circumstances, not only of the offence but of the offender, when sentencing….an offender’s personal characteristics…can all be treated as aggravating factors…Differences in the type and severity of sentence given to men and women may be attributable to a wide range of factors…”
    P.D.:”Is the Minister therefore conceding… that for each category of offence men are more likely to be sent to prison than women?”
    H.G.:”No, I do not accept that at all. What I have just said is that the sentencing framework and guidelines are gender-neutral: everyone is absolutely equal before the law.”
    20 seconds later(ish)…
    H.G.:”We are also developing intensive treatment options in the community for offenders with drug or mental health problems, including four women-only services…we are piloting drug recovery wings for short-sentence, drug and alcohol-dependent prisoners at three women’s prisons…ensuring that courts have the right mix of punitive and rehabilitative requirements available when sentencing female offenders to community sentences…The National Offender Management Service is providing £3.78 million in this financial year to fund 31 women’s community services that can be used as part of, or in conjunction with community sentences…funding will be embedded within the baseline for future probation trust settlements with a requirement that it results in enhanced services for women…
    We can continue to improve how we tackle offending together only if we continue to address the wide range of factors associated with offending, whether the offenders are male or female…they have highlighted how important it is to continue to focus on responding to the specific circumstances of women offenders.”

    • Xevaster

      H.G.:”We are also developing intensive treatment options in the community for offenders with drug or mental health problems, including four women-only services…we are piloting drug recovery wings for short-sentence, drug and alcohol-dependent prisoners at three women’s prisons…ensuring that courts have the right mix of punitive and rehabilitative requirements available when sentencing female offenders to community sentences…The National Offender Management Service is providing £3.78 million in this financial year to fund 31 women’s community services that can be used as part of, or in conjunction with community sentences…funding will be embedded within the baseline for future probation trust settlements with a requirement that it results in enhanced services for women…
      We can continue to improve how we tackle offending together only if we continue to address the wide range of factors associated with offending, whether the offenders are male or female…they have highlighted how important it is to continue to focus on responding to the specific circumstances of women offenders.”

      Good grief, the double talk and cognitive dissonance in this are almost beyond comprehension. How is it fair and balanced when all the focus is on helping only one group? As professor Farnsworth said, “I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.”

    • Sasha

      I read the transcript and had the same reaction. Couple of thoughts though; while Davies did an amazing job, he didn’t do himself any favours by allowing himself to be digressed into digs at political-correctness, the EU and probation officers. It allowed his audience to write him off as a stereotypical tory contrarian.

      When you’re delivering a challenging message, it’s very important to stay ON message. Just keep ramming home your point. A question is only as good as it helps you make your own point.

      The other thing it brought home to me was how very well-informed he was about the assumptions that underlie some of the stats that commonly float about. I wish he’d pushed this further.

      For example, one of the Labour MPs tried to throw him off with the ‘fact’ that ‘60% of female prisoners have experienced domestic abuse’. Well, ignoring the fact that this is hardly a reason to commit crime, the fact is we don’t know how many male prisoners have similarly experienced domestic abuse, because the UK government, like the US government, refuses to fund research into men’s experience of domestic abuse. What we DO know is that the suicide rate for divorced and separated men is astonishingly high, because there are coroner’s statistics kept on causes of mortality.

      What we might also wonder is how we define ‘domestic abuse.’ Why is stopping a man from seeing his children, or restricting a man’s relationship with his children, or throwing a man out of his family home, NOT defined as domestic abuse? Why are the alleged ‘abuses’ that women experience, such as ‘controlling how much money you spend’, coded in surveys as ‘abuse’, but experiences that men find abusive are not?

      So we don’t recognise behaviours that make men suffer as abusive, then we refuse to fund any research into those experiences or services for men, and then we’re surprised when lots of men are killing themselves and we blame them for it?

      When women are in prison for crimes or kill themselves they’ve been abused and are ‘troubled’, but when men kill themselves, it’s because men need to open up more and talk to professionals and go to the doctor and…well…it’s their fault dammit, they just need to be different. Men are responsible for themselves, women – like children – have only the right to expect us to be responsible for them.

      It’s a whole society, led by politicians and parasitic pressure groups, think tanks and lobbyists who walk around with their fingers in their ears shouting ‘la la la, I’m not listening and you can’t make me,” no matter what arguments one makes or what reasoning one attempts. It’s a feminist culture where they behave with all the self-awareness and responsibility of a candy-engorged eight year-old who mustn’t be upset because, well, we know what happened last time and how long that stain took to get out, and anyway, there’s no point, ‘she’s very headstrong you know’.

      How long we can afford to carry on like this I’ve no idea.

  • rebtus

    Lost in translation. Does anyone on the forum speak Rusian so we would not use the word that sent two harpie Russian women to prison in Siberia? Link.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/22/pussy-riot-remote-prison-camps

  • Sheldonshells

    So great to finally hear a politician stand up and say someting about this matter.

    Phil Davies will definately be one of the names I record and remember as one of the voices that helped make men’s rights and the condition of males in society matter again.