On Course

On politics and perspective

Fuck feminists. Fuck the left. Fuck the right. ~ Jared White, from Those Who Oppose Us

I think it is time to make a statement about AVfM.  There has been much back and forth of late about right vs. left, and how that helps or hinders the men’s movement.  I find part of the discussion interesting, part of it disturbing and part of it stupid and unnecessary. All of it provides some simple but important lessons.

First, and to clarify for those that don’t know by now, my thoughts on government fall pretty squarely in the libertarian (with a little L) camp with some rather inconsequential differences.

And that would work just fine if this were A Voice for Paul Elam, or a voice for any other individual that appoints themselves High Priest of What We Should All Believe.

However, that is the religiosity of partisan politics, and it is marked by the same destructive, divisive rigidity and denial that we see in feminists, fundamentalists and rabid, holier-than-thou Atheists.  While it will invariably snake its way into MRM dialogue, including glimpses of it on the pages of this site, AVfM will remain nonpartisan and wholly inclusive of any non-violent man or woman acting earnestly in the best interest of men and boys. Anyone who would sell that out for a party vote might consider joining the Democrat or Republican Men’s Rights Movement, when and if either of them grow a big enough spine (or brain, if you prefer) to start one. I am not holding my breath.

This is a discussion we are not going to avoid, though, and we should start it with a clarification of certain realities. One, the men’s movement, including MRA’s, MGTOW’s,  grass eaters, Zeta’s and others who are simply opting out, is a phenomena happening regardless of what is said or done on this website or any other.  It is bigger than this band of renegades, bigger than the internet, and is growing rapidly. We document it here more than we drive it.

Men are finally starting to wake up to the fact that they are getting shit upon. And it isn’t just men on the right who are ending that slumber. Consequently, it isn’t just men on the right who are included.

At this point we have enough real estate to faction off and it will not slow things down at all. In fact, as factions emerge and grow, the movement itself gets stronger. We now even have voices from the left that are finally beginning to realize and articulate how they have been coopted by a feminist ideology that has diluted and distorted their political ambitions.

That. Is. A. Good. Thing.

And yes, it is a good thing even if you are an ardent anti-leftist like me. I take great pride in the fact that men and women on the left can come to A Voice for Men and read some articles that reflect some of their beliefs while addressing their concerns about the state of men and boys.

We have voices from the right, who have always been slightly more welcoming of messages that eschew victim politics, who are becoming more and more anti-feminist as time goes by. They are also welcome here.

What is not and will not be a part of the editorial message of this site is blanket condemnation of MRAs because they didn’t vote for a particular candidate, or because they believe in socialized medicine or because they think prayer in school is a good thing or that abortion is either a human right or the mindless murder of a child.

I will happily let the blue pill world of political automatons stay at each other’s dumbed down throats over these issues while we carry on the mission of examining and ameliorating the problems faced by men across the metastasized spectrum of left and right.

That is something we are so good at that we have succeeded even in changing the rhetoric of feminist ideologues. Has anyone noticed that in the middle of all the growing attacks on this website, in other words, attacks on you, that they are now routinely acknowledging and legitimizing the list of issues that we have championed? Even the fembots are carrying our message now. They have no choice, because places like this have changed the discussion. We have put men’s issues on the map and they can’t even attack us any more without admitting to them. That is what not focusing on petty differences has done for us.

It wasn’t the right or the Republicans that got us here. It was telling the truth to the powerful and to the powerless alike, repeatedly, doggedly and without apology. As often as not, we have had to speak that truth to the supposed right as much as the equally supposed left, neither of which seem to resemble their label these days.

As I predicted in an earlier article, we will now be faced with those who have a political (read NOT MEN’S) agenda, who would love to coopt the men’s movement every bit as much as when the card carrying leftists were swallowed up by feminism.

This is in part because what we are doing, e.g. MRA’s, MGTOW’s, Zeta Males, etc., is not on the traffic beaten road of mainstream politics. We are forging new ground and defining a path never before taken by any group of men before the grass eaters of Japan. Those who don’t understand it will attempt to own it only to find that they cannot.

Ask the Japanese government how they are going to handle the economic fallout from the Soushoku Danshi in Japan. I bet if you could get one of them to talk, he or she would tell you they don’t have a fucking clue. That is, if you could catch one being honest. But, I digress.

Where it concerns those who insist on politicizing concern for men and boys, they will attempt to wrest a form of control that does not exist. They will create divisions, drawing imaginary lines in imaginary sand, and double-dog daring any of us to step over it. And still all we have to do is keep walking, with an indifference born of deeper understanding of the issues than what is possessed by would-be usurpers.

A side effect will be some good discussions. Conservative philosophy is a compatible fit with the MRM, at least until the chivalrist, tradcon, über-capitalist war mongers start fucking everything up.  But speaking for and about AVfM, I can tell you that this forum will never, ever be defined by those with ambitions to pigeonhole the MRM into an American partisan agenda.

First, this is an international website that happens to be housed in Texas (a fine country that borders the U.S.A.). Like our Aussie brothers, we’re kinda partial to taking our own road. Our supporters come from across the planet and from innumerable backgrounds and systems of belief. Allowing that to change by marginalizing any of those men and women is nothing less than a well-aimed bullet directly in the foot.

We did not make it this far by being dense and we are not going to take a detour down Stupid Street now. The belief here is that there is no such thing as a bad voice in opposition to the bigotry of gender feminism.

This site was created to discuss the problems faced by men in this society. As far as I can tell, as many of those problems are created and/or maintained by the right as the left.  I am not going to ignore that for Barak Obama, and not for Mitt Romney, when I would trust neither of them with a man’s freedom, or the well-being of a male child.

The clincher to this is obvious to me. Our time is better spent on other things. As the movement grows there will be factions that emerge from our divisions. Support them. If  right wing social conservatives want to battle feminism so they can clear the way for more young men to mount their white horsies, then let ‘em do it. They are still battling feminists, lessening their foothold on power and legislation, which is still good for us at this stage.

If leftists want to start standing up to the feminist bullshit that is now defining their entire movement, they are welcome to send articles here so they can do it.

If any of the polemicist’s are smart, they will stay out of our way, too, and enjoy the fact that the work we do also supports their agenda, at this point in time.

Bickering now, when we still benefit from each others work, just to claim ownership of something we don’t and fucking well CAN’T own, is kinda crazy, isn’t it?

  • Kimski

    Thank you, and that last question needed to be asked. Great picture to underline an important overall message:
    Stay the course.

  • http://a-wayforward.blogspot.com/ caimis.vudnaus.

    Thank you, great article, I agree 100%.

    Likely I will be criticized for saying this, I think there is one bit of rhetoric that the feminists follow (mind you sometimes they break the rule) that MRA’s should be mirroring. The idea that every stripe of feminists are still a Feminist, that their ideology is all encompassing.

    Its my belief that if a person feels men have right’s that are not being fairly addressed, then no matter how they feels those rights should be addressed, they have the right to be supported in identifying themselves as an MRA.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

    Righto Paul so you reckon it goes like this :

    If you are from the left and you think feminism stinks it’s a good thing, and if you are from the right and you think the same it’s grand as well.

    If you think feminism stinks, but want others to think your political ideologue is the only trumpet that plays the right song then you’re being a dick-head.

    We’re making good headway and the feminists are acknowledging it as they have no choice.

    Watch out for other dick-heads with trumpets wanting to scoop us up with their movement.

    Press on ahead.

    Yep, important article this.

  • Kai

    That sounds good and all. But the vibe I get among the vast swaths of online MRAs is very much a conservative, libertarian slant with a very strong anti-leftist bias. By very strong, I mean seething hatred and intolerance of. So it’s good you’re saying something. Perhaps that strong intolerance will cool down a bit by advocating an open and progressive attitude towards leftists (That’s right, I said it because it is 😉 ).

    So who exactly are “you guys” that the polemicists are to stay out of the way of? The true MRAs? (Those of the conservative, libertarian slant?)

    • TigerMan

      I am anti-feminist because I believe in egalitarianism as far as that is practicable. I also understand that men and women have differences in biology and that this contributes to behavioural differences between the sexes as does social conditioning. Finally I believe in fair play and that definitely makes me anti-feminist (well anti-MAINSTREAM feminist at any rate!). As for my politics that is my affair. Those who think they can muscle in on the MRA movement and claim it for their faction can fuck right off as far as I am concerned. :)

    • Paul Elam

      “So who exactly are “you guys” that the polemicists are to stay out of the way of? The true MRAs? (Those of the conservative, libertarian slant?)”

      Actually, I thought I was pretty clear that wasn’t the point. The author of the article you are commenting on isn’t of that slant at all, it seems. And yet his voice is not silenced.

      That’s the point.

  • http://jmnzz.wordpress.com Jared White

    You help men and boys and I will support you. Regardless of your political affiliations.

    Because I have none.

    Jared White

    • Rog

      you help the discarded,, i will support that.

  • Arvy

    “We did not make it this far by being dense and we are not going to take a detour down Stupid Street now.”


  • mongo

    About the only thing I have ever seen politics succeed at doing is to make people hate each other, while the political preacher somehow benefits from that.

    At the end of the day, although I admit to having political leanings too, I cannot truthfully say they have ever done me any good. Nor can I say that those who hold opposing political views have universally done me harm – in fact, I have actually done better (materially) under those who are doctrinally my ‘enemies’.

    Politics is a virus.

  • Fr Bob

    Paul you don’t know how much I appreciated this article, and how much I appreciate AVFM for bringing the truth to the fore. I agree right or left it matters not, what does matter is truth and equality for all, let that be our goal and avoid being co opted by one side or the other that would place the truth in danger of looseing the spot light. Our cause is just so let us stay the course until out mission is complete.

  • Codebuster

    We might try to keep politics out of it, but it would pay us to confront the nature of the human animal, and to try to understand what system might best harness human potential.

    The problem with defining which system is appropriate for the human animal lies in defining desire/motivation. When feminists gather in protests and in their shrill voices demand the equal right to work (meaning of course equal outcome not equal opportunity), insisting that they can do whatever men can do, the free market steps in and says… “ok then, prove it.” And then they rush back to the kitchen, falling over themselves to be stay-at-home housewives. Marxists want to tamper with that elegant simplicity.

    The capitalist system also has its problems. Again, the problem lies in understanding the human animal and in defining desire/motivation. The capitalist system, based in evo-psych type presumptions relating to the will to power and the maximisation of self-interest, is quite ignorant of the many types of priorities by which people live.

    I am curious about the founding fathers’ interpretation of the US Constitution because it is a principles-based system that tries to factor in free-market truths with basic principles relating to human motivation. It factors in questions relating to moral intent and individualism.

    Neither blind capitalism nor blind marxism do any such thing. Left unchecked, both only serve to create lumbering edifices of bureaucracy, control and corruption, as we’ve seen most recently in the big financial crash. In one, bureacracy manifests as big gubmint and centralized state control, in the other bureaucracy manifests as big corporations doing exactly what big gubmints do, but in the pursuit, primarily, of the agendas of those at the top. The one consistent human characteristic essential to the lumbering behemoths that are our capitalist corporations and marxist big gubmints is group-think and the absence of individualism. The question should not be confined to marxism or capitalism. Something quite different needs to be developed.

    • http://patricestanton.com/ Patrice Stanton

      This is an older article and I stumbled here accidentally (28 feb 2013). I see Codebuster has used the precise word I intended to use to respond just above: “behemoth.” It is so apt. I understand AVfM does not want to “go partisan.” That would clearly alienate many potential readers that would otherwise be helped immeasurably by the Content here.

      But…how government works/grows/steals/adjudicates! DOES matter and in my view that’s “all” politics is – the machinations of the State. To avoid thinking on such matters (and getting involved even a little) will always be to that passive individual’s detriment. And as I reflect on those machinations I’d also contend the activism exhibited and clarion-called-for right here IS political-activism whether those involved want to call it that or not.

      Codebuster: it’s not my original contention by any means but the business system in the U.S. anyway is NOT Capitalism. It is Mercantilism or the phoney Crony-capitalism that gives the “real” free-market/unobstructed-by-the State a bad name. In the crony flavor the State (at all levels) showers favors on some and rains restrictions on others (all while regulating EVERYBODY!). It’s all about who’s-your-crony; who in high-enough places can your corporation get in bed with. And incorporating in and of itself removes liability hence personal responsibility from business concerns anyway.

  • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suz

    Thank you for this, Paul!
    Say it as often as necessary.

    The MRM represents half of the population, so, um, yeah, there’s going to be disagreement. If we let it divide us, Feminism wins.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/RockingMrE?feature=mhee Rocking Mr. E

    First let me state that I have the utmost respect for you Paul. You are one of the fathers of this movement and have done much for it. I am also very similar to you in many ways. We are both classical liberals and atheists, and are both advocates of men’s rights too.

    Now, I can see why you think that using leftists to turn on other leftists might actually work. In fact, it may do some damage. But there is a serious underestimation here that really concerns me.

    Leftists have co-opted every single civil right issue, expanding socialism and using statist coercion to silence disagreement. They have won practically every political battle since the 60’s, and it’s largely religion that has prevented them from attaining complete domination (and remember I say this as an atheist).

    They are not interested in coexisting, and this is why they must make you believe that labels are irrelevant, and that social injustice is actually an ‘us and them’ class war, and in the case of feminism this was gender based. Leftists will lock you up in room 101 and bombard you with theories like materialism and other postmodern ideas, waring you down until you can do nothing but revert to ‘feelings’ and political correctness. Calling a tree a tree is not acceptable in their eyes – because logic = anathema.

    It’s absolutely abhorrent to me that, while the ‘far-right’ is ostracised (and rightly so) the ‘far left’ (or leftist as I call them) have been left off Scott free for the damage done by the ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’, controlling our universities and indoctrinating our youth. This group is no better than the far-right, and they have absolutely no respect for non-aggression. Associating with this group does not sit well with me ethically at all.

    The question is, is this a movement founded on non-aggression, or is it one founded on “the ends justifies the means”, because that is exactly what feminism endorses, like the suggestion that a few innocent men being thrown in jail for false rape is necessary. I will not endorse the changing of the bourgeois class from male to female. I want this gender war to end, and I do not see any one group as my inherent enemy. I just see human weakness, and ideologies like Marxism that appeal to this.

    Furthermore, if leftists are going to be permitted to be a part of this movement without re-educating themselves in the process then we risk alienating those who espouse non-aggression, like the many people on freedomainradio, who I personally think is a target audience for the MRM. Can a movement satisfy everyone? Realistically no, and what’s more we know that leftists will move in from the inside and take it over – aka the Lenin strategy. Who knows, maybe that is what feminists have in mind.

    Yes, it’s clear that male leftists are taking notice of the MRM as they look around and see what their support of feminism has led to. But does that mean they entitled to have a leftist voice in the MRM? Not to me. Their ideology caused this mess, and unless they abandon it when they come through the door they will use it to co-opt this movement. Go over to the men’s rights reddit page and see what they have done there. Alas, if leftists start congregating on this site it won’t be the same.

    • Paul Elam

      Greetings Mr. E

      Thanks for your thoughtful comment.

      The saving factor here is that my authority on the subject is limited to the scope of AVfM editorial policy and not of the men’s movement at large. It is also my most convenient cop out since I still own the joint.

      While I understand some of your concerns about left wing indoctrination, too much concern about it presupposes that MRAs have no mental defense against swallowing leftist Blue Pills when offered.

      As to your concerns about leftists “congregating” on this site, I respectfully don’t share them. Bottom line is that this site is steadfastly non allied with MS politics.

      We have over 1,000 articles published and have always been open to all pro MRA views. I don’t see any left wing conspiracy emerging to take us all down. Or right wing, either. It is what makes this place work.

      One of the things I love about this website, and for which I am very proud, is that I can assume the intelligence and intellectual honesty of regular readers. Generally speaking I don’t see them as the kind of men and women blindly sucked in to political illusions, especially when so many of them come here totally jaded about mainstream politics.

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/RockingMrE?feature=mhee Rocking Mr. E

        Thanks for your reply Paul.

        In case I haven’t clarified I do not feel the left-right paradigm is productive in the political arena, since it just results in poeple turning the power of the state onto others, while the ‘ants’ fight it out to control this entity. So in this sense I agree with the ‘apolitical’ angle.

        But that doesn’t mean that left and right are not diametrically opposed, or that they can ultimately resolve radical differences like property rights.

        I also do not see how we can have stated goals if the MRM becomes full of people who are radically opposed. People on the right see that the state is the primary source of tyranny, and so will advocate its marginalisation. Those on the left will suggest that more government is the solution.

        AVFM is ultimately your baby Paul, and you have been doing this for a while. But I still think leftists are very adept at co-option, and they usually use weight of numbers to silence dissent, which builds up over time. All i can do is lay the warning out there, since it would break my heart to see this movement become another monster of leftist dogma. I could never be a part of that.

        • Stu

          Besides, they already have their own MRM sites, TGMP for example :)

        • Paul Elam

          Trust me, I will shit petunias before this place ever becomes a monster of any political dogma.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/RockingMrE?feature=mhee Rocking Mr. E

            Good to know.

          • http://www.shrink4men.com/ Dr. Tara J. Palmatier

            Now that’s a visual. :)

    • ThoughtCriminal

      I have personally considered all of the issues you point to myself.

      As for co-option,”leftists” even do it to other “leftists”. Feminism has completely taken over the Occupiers. Not even Valenti-style feminism. Radical feminism owns the Occupy movement,for all intents and purposes.

      There is a real danger there. I don’t even think most leftists do it consciously.

      So,it is my considered opinion then that marginalizing MRA voices that come from the left is NOT a good strategy.


      It’s like this. The MRM philosophy or attitude encompasses all of manhood. It’s about righting some very specific wrongs that are done to us as men. It has nothing to do with politics or race or sexual orientation or any of that.

      It is MORE harmful to men to continue those wrongs against them ourselves under the mantle of ideological purity and adherence to these divisions than to let them speak,or even take over the movement.

      Ideally,this should be a short term goal. We get legislation passed permanently protecting men from feminists’ ideological and punitive legislation,then we go home.

      Looking out for the long-term leadership or ideological narrative of the MRM might be a bit misplaced. We can’t continue this forever,nor would I want to.Once our problems are solved, there’s no need for the MRM to continue to exist.

      Another thing to consider is that the left is a stronghold of feminism. If we want to eradicate feminism there,we can continue blasting away at them while they ignore everything we say because we’re “delusional right wingers” or we can send the weapon (the truth) that will kill the heart of feminism in with one of their own. A leftist,feminist,woman who believes in real equality would be the best friend the MRM ever had,but so far we’ve had no takers for direct cooperation from one,that I know of.

      A Marxist or Leninist leftist would be the next best thing because college chicks eat that shit up. They didn’t build Western society and they’d like to destroy it because it’s a lasting reminder of what fuckups they are.If a Marxist leftist,a true believer in these principles,tells them to get rid of female privilege and a monopoly on reproduction in 50,000 words about a proletariat worker state, they’ll support whatever he says because they know it has something to do with anti-authoritarianism because Marx,Lenin,Che Guevara,Chavez and others,worker’s rights, and so on are mentioned multiple times.

      While I won’t be joining the proletariat uprising in the near future,if a leftist MRA sees feminism as an arm of the capitalist bourgeois and takes that message to his fellow travelers,and they buy it,causing feminism to lose a few recruits,I won’t be losing any sleep over it.

      Like I said in my comment on Mateusz’ article,if it works,do it.

      It doesn’t matter if Marxist theory is wrong,as I believe it to be,what matters is that you can speak the lingo these people are accustomed to hearing while delivering a message which subverts feminism. Mateusz certainly did that very well.

      I’m not concerned with your skin color,I’m not concerned with your politics,I don’t care who you’re fucking, all I care about is -Can THIS be done? Can THAT be done? Do we want to hit feminists HERE or over THERE?

      “Does it move us closer to the forefront? Does it close off avenues of attack by our enemies? Does it open up avenues of attack for the MRM? Does it leave us vulnerable to attack?”. These are the things I’m thinking about.

      Is leftism going to hurt the MRM? I don’t know. But I like the idea of a culture dominated by MRM thinking and red pill realities about men,women and sex a hell of a lot better than a leftist media saturated by manginas pandering to women and accusing me of being a rapist every 5 minutes.

      If those on the left want to serve the interests and goals of the MRM,I open my arms to them. An MRM that instead serves the interests of leftists,or RIGHTISTS for that matter, is worse than useless to men,it’s dangerous.

      • Shakaz

        ¨Another thing to consider is that the left is a stronghold of feminism. If we want to eradicate feminism there,we can continue blasting away at them while they ignore everything we say because we’re “delusional right wingers” or we can send the weapon (the truth) that will kill the heart of feminism in with one of their own. A leftist,feminist,woman who believes in real equality would be the best friend the MRM ever had,but so far we’ve had no takers for direct cooperation from one,that I know of.¨

        This right here is gold if it works, use the same tactics. plant the seed of doubt(the truth) in their minds, reform it from the inside, the only way to weaken the left is from inside, no self professed right winger will change their minds because politics in the us is like a religion.

        MRAs dividing in groups will happen, is inevitable, but first the core problem should be getting the message out.

  • Stu


    Just seen a funny ad on TV. New foxtel pay tv ad. Afraid to commit. The ad advertises their no commitment package that you can cancel at any time with no penalty lol. The ad features a priest marrying a couple and he says to the bride…”Do you take this man for your lawful wedded husband…..knowing you can leave at any time” LOL. Personally I would have said……knowing you can kick him out at any time.

    This ad makes fun of the situation men are in, but it does show that there is awareness of it at least. What it really makes fun of is the joke that women’s commitment has become……signing a contract with a pay tv company is harder to get out of then a marriage…..for a woman……..but no more……they now have the no commitment no penalty pay tv contract to match your no commitment no penalty marriage contract.

  • James Williams

    I agree that we should not fall out over petty differences but, in spite of the march forward, the feminists are well entrenched with brainwashed automodon fem/mangina soldiers to fight their cause. They absorb millions of dollars/pounds/euros to fund their bigotry and one of their biggest allies is the ignorance and indifference of the masses. The feminist oligarchy will not surrender without a bitter fight. They will use all their might to pour scorn on us and to feed false information as they have been doing so far. They are making money out of misery and it suits them fine to maintain the status quo. They do not care about children or men or other women. In Lord of the Rings terms, think of the radfems as orcs and trolls.

  • PHS

    Not making a choice regarding political ideology actually IS making a choice regarding political ideology. This website can either be a place where activism is done toward a logical end goal (conservative) or a place where people just want to feel good and talk about things but have no real solutions in mind (liberal). If you talk about solutions, you find that liberalism is the problem and conservatism is the answer. If you don’t want to talk about solutions, this is a liberal website, where feeling righteous is what’s important, but accomplishing something is not. That’s not activism.

    • Paul Elam

      Oh, I get it. You are either for us or against us. Funny, I feel the same way when it comes to men and boys. And to say the least, I could care less what some peanut gallery commando has to say about whether or not I am an activist. Also, fuck you.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F


      Put your top hat back on and slink out under the door.

      Don’t worry about the hat falling off as there is good clearance.

    • http://www.johntheother.com John the Other

      Quoting you PHS:
      “If you don’t want to talk about solutions, this is a liberal website, where feeling righteous is what’s important, but accomplishing something is not. That’s not activism.”

      You’re new around here, obviously. Nobody who’d been paying attention could possibly be so ignorant as that statement of yours appears to be.

      Not activism? “feeling righteous is what’s important, but accomplishing something is not”

      I know what this site has accomplished, and I know what it continues to accomplish. But if you’re too lazy and ignorant to discover that yourself by paying attention, it is not my task to correct your ignorance. I do have a question for you, and it is not rhetorical.

      What have you done?

      Answer that please. Also, what do you intend to do. That too is a real question, which you can kindly answer.

      Or, alternately, you can ignore these questions, and instead, just crawl quietly off like a cockroach

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

        Whoah Mr JTO,

        A Pyramid of Horse Shit is not to be ignored.

        What are you.. some kind of a “Pyramidist” or something ?

  • PHS

    Ho ho Bernard Chapin’s video here is pretty spot on:

    “You know Bern, I just wish you’d just stop talking about the left/right thing, man, you know, you just need some funny videos about feminists and try not to connect with the big picture, nobody needs to think about the big picture, let’s just make fun of people in women’s studies programs and call it a channel, okay, ’cause I don’t need to think about how events tie in together.”

    Sums it up pretty well.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

      I upvoted you because I like the humour.

      At first I thought you were a verbose and vapid knob, now I can see that you’re a decent sort and are contributing a good message through irony and satire.

      Oh fuck me sideways with a Sunday shit-storm, I actually didn’t see the joke at first.



  • PHS
  • TheMoralGodless

    Feminism is a product of the Left that has spread beyond its ideological “borders” because of the female supremacism that seems nearly instinctive in human society.

    Female supremacism and male disposability are deeply-rooted in human society, and as such will infect everything.

    I am concerned about appropriation attempts from the Left. Because it’s what they always do. But then again, I think it’s just as likely we’ll get a lot of traditionalists attempting to do the same thing.

    What I do not feel we should tolerate is anyone with a political ideology being dishonest about his/her ideology’s role in female supremacism and male sacrifice. The “NAMarxistsALT” article from yesterday was a prime example of this.

    With that said, I will react just as strongly against anyone who preaches “NATraditionalistsALT.”

    • keyster

      He really didn’t fully understand Marxism OR Capitalism, just the hard-left biased versions of each.

      He gave it a good shot though and he’s thinking; which is more than 80% of our country doesn’t do.

      I had been pleading for a Liberal MRA to articulate their world views vis a vis feminism for years, and someone finally did. I’m not angry or bitter, I’m grateful.

      Someone finally had the balls to lay it all out there, rather than just snipe and take pot shots.

  • operationoptout

    I love the discussions we have here. They are riveting and open, a breath of fresh air!! Agreement is optional, not expected. Thats what makes the MRM and AVfM so special, free men and women discussing ideas that the mainstream doesn’t have the balls to touch. The truth is discovered when we embrace our differences in charged discussion. Good stuff!!

  • Bombay

    A good example of a recent movement being co-opted is the Teaparty. What started out a libertarian movement for less government and more fiscal responsibility turned into what is reported as a right wing cause. And I think that this characterization was promoted by both the left and the right.

    The left wanted to shut it down so they called them a far right movement and the right wanted more supporters so they tried to steer the movement to support them. In reality the Teaparty was made up of people from both sides of the aisle – but that perspective was rarely reported in the mainstream media. Through all of this, the growth of this grassroots movement was stifled which is what the powers that be wanted. IMO

    • keyster

      Tea Party candidates happen to be Republican, because spending and “Taxed Enough Already” is all they really care about.

      They’re managing to pull the Republican Party back to the right on fiscal responsibility, which was lost on GW Bush and Republican congress reps.

      We ALL have to fight government growth all the time, regardless. It grows naturally with Republicans, and purposefully with Democrats.

    • TheMoralGodless

      The Tea Party has only been co-opted if someone was expecting it to be libertarian. The Tea Party has moved towards the more traditional Right as the age-old divides between libertarians and conservatives divide the movement.

      And that is understandable, as I was disgusted by some of the Tea Party embracing the big government theocrat Santorum.

      Still, many Tea Party endorsed politicians are way preferable to GOP establishment politicians. Senator Rand Paul is really solid and could legitimately get elected President someday. Congressman Justin Amash is also really solid. Many Tea Party Republicans are taking brave stances in challenging neoconservative dogma.

      As a right-leaning libertarian, i’d like to see the Tea Party be more libertarian too. But we have to go to battle with the troops we have on the field.

  • keyster

    The cultural analysis stuff is compelling, as are some of the news stories and analysis, but in the end solutions will be found within the political spectrum; whether it’s co-opting or compromising or selling out.

    Given the current state of polarization, at least in the USA, I don’t see any bipartisan effort to publicly recognize men and boys as a distinct group vis a vis women and girls, happening anytime soon.

    But if there ever comes a time when the Democrat Party acknowledges discrimination against men and boys and violation of the Equal Protection clause, I’ll support them. Whatever works.

    Somehow though I don’t see that happening. Without the female vote they lose, and if you’re for men and boys, you must be against women and girls. That’s how political correctness works.

    Abortion Rights
    The Affordable Healthcare Act (99% specific to women)
    The Lily Ledbetter Act
    The Dear Collegue Letter
    The Presidents Council on Women and Girls
    The “War on Women” narrative as campaign tactic
    The Pay Check Fairness Act
    FBI re-defintion of rape…with no opposition
    VAWA (again!)

    What more can be said?
    And this is just at the federal level.

    If you’re apolitical you’re not an activist by definition. You’re an informer and a commentator. Which is OK, there’s a place for that. But eventually EVERYTHING becomes political if you really want to get shit done.

    Ignore it at your own peril.
    Appealing to society’s sense of fairness and humanity with regards to the treatment of men and boys, is never gonna work. Politics is the ugly solution.

    • http://menzmagazine.blogspot.com/ Dan Moore (Factory)

      Politicians will do what they’ve always done…bend to their interpretation of the public will, that will get them elected. For example, the smart politician would seize Obamas “life of Julia” shit, and paint him as beholden to the feminists, bent on destroying marriage and sidelining the male role.

      It’s only lack of awareness of anti feminist sentiment that keeps the political classes from seizing it for a power grab of their own. But don’t worry, as the MRM spreads it’s memes, the political classes are taking note.

      It’s only a matter of time.

  • Malestrom

    I don’t know Paul, it seems pretty obvious to me what is going on here, and i think it must be pretty obvious to you as well. This is just standard leftist infiltration, look at them in the comments section of Mateusz’s article, playing the victim as always, ”oh the big bad majority of right leaning MRAs are bullying and oppressing us leftists”. This is just what leftists do, this is what they always do, I don’t even think its conscious, it’s like sneezing, or like when a squid squirts ink in the water to confuse. Once they have whined and guilted their way into the movement they will have the same affect on us they always have, sapping our strength and resolve and draining us of resolution and conviction in our defined goals.

    It is agonizingly obvious that feminism is entirely of the left, the best argument they can make against the right is to complain that it did not provide sufficient resistance against the cancer of leftism and feminism, as though that is a reason to embrace leftism and feminism. Feminism is the crown jewel of leftism, leftists know that they get more moral mileage out of feminism than anything else, it will be the last thing that those on the right finally muster up the courage to openly attack. Anyone who cannot see that feminism is intrinsically of the left is either indescribably stupid or simply disingenuous. To the extent that any of these ”leftist MRAs” are acting in good faith, they simply dislike the consequences of leftism, but are unwilling to abandon it.

    With all that said, it’s your site and I understand what you’re trying to do here. For my part though I will always come down aggressively and unapologetically on the side of an explicitly right wing MRM, and no amount of whining and victim playing by leftists is going to persuade me that leftist ideas will have anything other than their usual deleterious affect on the MRM.

    • Paul Elam

      “and no amount of whining and victim playing by leftists is going to persuade me that leftist ideas will have anything other than their usual deleterious affect on the MRM.”

      Can’t say I disagree. But when we can have the same open dialogue about the anti-male drivel oozing out of the supposed right, then we can have a much more comprehensive discussion.

      • Malestrom

        ”anti-male drivel oozing out of the supposed right”

        That’s just the point though isnt it, it is the ”supposed” right, not the ideologically committed right.

        Ultimately, I think we both know that the best deal men are ever going to get is to be left alone. That is the best treatment men as a group can ever hope to get from the state, any state; simply to be left in peace to go about our lives. As such, I believe it is natural and essential that we align ourselves firmly with classical liberal/libertarian (ie hard right) philosophy. That a bunch of ideologically vacillating charlatans calling themselves the mainstream right spew out anti-male propaganda in an attempt to court the female vote is in my opinion irrelevant to this underlying truth.

        • http://menzmagazine.blogspot.com/ Dan Moore (Factory)

          Align yourself with whoever you like. That is the point of this article. But as is also the point, no one can or will make any ideology the ‘official’ ideology of the MRM…

        • Paul Elam

          This is precisely where Keyster misses the point. Men get more protection from going their own way than they ever will from politicians.

          Keyster views all solutions as inevitably political. Well, there are some political solutions to some problems, with the caveat that governments most often fuck up on those, too.

          But to think that the congress or the White House is going to legislate us out of a misandric culture is delusional.

          Men can do plenty for themselves with information and perspective. Hardly assets we find with most partisans.

          • jms5762

            Feminism got legislated into culture. Slavery got legislated out. Paul I know you have been at this for decades and I share your cynicism. I do have a glimmer of hope that he govt will legislate misandry out of American culture. Here in the Republic of Texas there doesn’t seem to be as much misandry as say the northeast or mid Atlantic States. Not by a long shot. Texas has significant pull with the Federal Govt to say the least. The influence will become greater as the eagle ford oil boom comes fully on line over the next several years. No state income tax unemployment rate below national average low cost of living affordable housing. We have pine forest hill country fertile plains western deserts beautiful beaches and its bigger than France! How can we take the lead from Texas and influence the rest of the nation?

          • keyster

            You’re not going to get young men to drop out en masse. It’s not a practical objective.

            Political solutions can be found in UNDOING feminist governance. It’s happening right now, and will be happening this November.

            Obviously there will never be a Party of Men, but there is a party of individual responsibility and self-reliance, two concepts that really annoy Feminists.

            When Mitt Romney is president and he decides to keep the “President’s Council on Women and Girls” intact, I’ll eat my shorts on video and post it here.

          • Paul Elam

            I won’t gloat when I pass you the catsup and a plastic knife and fork. It will be a sad day, but I will run the video.

  • andybob

    I notice that some commenters seem to have hazy definitions of political theories. Perhaps a bit of revision would help. Allow me to offer a few tips I read a long time ago (apologies to the original author, whoever they are). It went something like this:

    SOCIALISM IN THOERY: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else’s cows. You have to take care of all of the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need.

    SOCIALISM IN PRACTICE: You have two cows. The government takes them and put them in a barn with everyone else’s cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs as the regulations say you need.

    COMMUNISM IN THEORY: You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

    COMMUNISM IN PRACTICE: You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk and may or may not shoot you.

    PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.

    REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who will get the milk.

    LIBERTARIAN/ANARCHO-CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull so that you can prosper and help create a healthy and productive economy.

    BUREAUOCRATIC FEMINISM: You have two cows. A feminist panel on gender equity decides the cows are being oppressed and sets them free in the wild where they are incapable of surviving and then die. Men are blamed.

  • limeywestlake

    I am a one-time Marxist-Feminist mangina; looking back, I am learning that I can at last escape my past ideological affiliations. In all fairness, I think my political orientation thereabouts was born of a naive desire for universal fairness and equality (along with a concomitant desire to have sex with the womyn in my student union…)
    I can see these girls now, in my mind’s eye, at the college disco, raising their fists in the power salute, singing along to Gloria Gaynor’s disco anthem “I will survive.”
    Just thinking about it makes me feel dyspeptic.
    But I digress: it is safe to say that this gynocentric pandering left me feeling like a worthless piece of shit. As a member of my gender, I could not help but feel marginalized. I was the existential ‘other,’ with none of the resources my female comrades could expunge. I could not take it anymore: I had to move on.
    I then journeyed though Anarcho-Syndicalism all the way to Anarcho-Primitivism – yet even there the specter of the xy chromosomal ‘deficiency’ loomed large.
    Right now, I do not know where this leaves me, politically-speaking; moreover, I feel especially lost since I swallowed the red pill several months ago.
    I appreciate your efforts, Paul, in reaching out to the left simply because there are disenfranched types, like myself, who once made that their ideological epicenter.
    I may not be a right-winger, but I care passionately about the welfare of men and boys. I am a man and I have two sons whom I love dearly; what’s more they are not deficient just because they have a penis.
    What’s more, if you are a right-wing libertarian and you love men and boys too, I have got your back, brother.

    • Paul Elam

      I am obliged for your very kind words. Thank you.

  • the hermit

    What should be noticed, that nor right nor left (ideology) is essentially good or bad. People on either side forget too often, that the other side also has some points.
    Practice? That’s another story.
    Even the right/left dichotomy is a little bit false under the current political climate.

  • AntZ

    “Has anyone noticed that in the middle of all the growing attacks on this website, in other words, attacks on you, that they are now routinely acknowledging and legitimizing the list of issues that we have championed?”

    Yes. Great article, BTW.

  • Cooter Bee

    Fantastic article. The main thing I take away from it is that the contributions of both left leaning and right leaning MGTOW are essentially the same. Both show men how to get out from under the feminist thumb, to the extent that they can, in the here and now. Let the Frankfurt School eliminate Jaysus if the divorce courts are empty. Let the tradcons promote the nukaler famly so long as I am not in one.

    A Marxist, Socon or Libertarian who lives for himself starves the system whatever or whoever may be behind it. We are all part of the Don’t Fuck with Me party and the rest will have to learn to get along without any of us.

    It is quickly getting to be that even the most slavish men will be forced to adopt MGTOW because as much as they would like to be uncomplaining cogs in the machine, the machine won’t have them. You can’t have dominion over your wife or stewardship over your children if you can’t get a wife or children. Nor can you participate in a factory revolt when you don’t have a job or there are no factories.

    The only vote that counts is the one you make with your feet. MGTOW of all political persuasions step in the same direction.

  • http://www.cyclotronmajesty.net CyclotronMajesty

    Well said. Thx for the interlude.

  • Kris W

    Way I see it: The Personnel is Political and the Political is Personnel. Some will have different interpretations, but my interpretation is that the personnel issues of men trump any political issue, and in the end all male personnel issues are the only political issues that matter.

  • Kris W

    Malestrom, your only looking at the knife placed against your throat(feminism), not the drops of poison in your coffee or dinner(traditionalism).

    Traditionalism is hatred of males with a smiley face, as traditionalism relies on the dehumanization of males. Any act of dehumanization is an undeniable act of hatred.

  • L. Byron

    Good to hear a public statement on this, Paul, & glad you have your eye on not letting party politics hijack the movement.