Cause-and-Effect

Challenging the Etiology of Rape

An article once appeared here that was written in November 2010 to be provocative and controversial and specifically to inflame tempers, to challenge people’s core beliefs in the most ruthless way possible to make them discuss taboo subjects.

It was, to use a phrase feminist Camille Paglia once used, a “necessary savaging” of a once-taboo subject. Now that the culture at large is beginning to acknowledge that both men and women can and do engage in abusive behavior that can provoke violent, dangerous reactions in psychotic and irresponsible individuals, and now that the culture is beginning to recognize that men are at least as likely to be victims of sexual assault as women, and women far more likely to be perpetrators of sexual assault than was once commonly believed, and a more mature dialogue has begun on the non-gendered nature of rape and sexual assault and abuse, the old article no longer serves its intended purpose; it only tends to be quoted out of context by dishonest ideologues as “typical” of the AVFM’s content rather than the unusually provocative article that it was.

Thus its continued presence on these pages only tended to cause confusion and to be used dishonestly by people who don’t seek a real dialogue on the issues. As such it has been archived and will no longer be publicly available on this site, unless once again the Men’s Human Rights Movement is silenced and ignored, and retrograde attitudes about human sexuality once again have the common currency they did in the first decade of the this Century. As of 2014, the article is no longer relevant and now causes more confusion than anything.

So while you may scour other sites looking for copies of the article, some of which may be accurate copies and some not, you won’t find it here, as it was never “typical” content for this site at any time, and it no longer serves a useful service to anyone but dishonest and hateful ideologues. If you really must find it, go look elsewhere.

Otherwise, just enjoy this musical interlude.

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A Voice for Men's featured writers are an incredibly diverse collection of men and women who represent many years of collective experience in addressing the issues faced by men and boys in modern culture. We are fortunate and proud to have their works presented on this website, and thankful for all the valuable work they do.

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  • Tasha

    It’s so disappointing to spend time on other blogs trying to explain to feminists that the MRM isn’t a hate movement, that the intelligent, serious posters and commentators are NOT woman haters, that they DON’T really view rape as a “natural consequence” bestowed unto women for the sin of being a woman, and then come here, to a blog I’ve followed causally for about a year, used regularly by a writer/activist I used to admire very much, and see said writer engaging in the very behaviors that feminists scream about him being guilty of.

    It makes me genuinely frustrated for the mens rights movement.

  • http://fatalplanet.blogspot.com/ Theodore Labadie

    @ Tasha:

    Perhaps the world is so far gone that MRAs think appeasement has worse than a snowball’s chance.

    That you work fruitlessly to convince feminists that “intelligent, serious posters and commentators” are intelligent and serious–which should be self-evident–only proves that feminists cannot be reached. Feminism is non-rational. There is no way to argue with a feminist.

    I say screw feminists, and pour all of our energies into reaching men.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    Hi Tasha,

    With all respect, I think your frustrations are better served elsewhere.

    And again, with genuine respect, I think you should strive for a better understanding of the OP than you have.

    First, though, I don’t think it serves us well to defend MRA’s a not being woman haters. It is like a man answering the question “How often to you beat your wife?” It is engaging them in a debate they have designed to keep us on the defensive.

    Now, to this post, please point to me where, IN ANY WAY, I have supported the idea that I “view rape as a “natural consequence” bestowed unto women for the sin of being a woman.”

    There is nothing here of the sort. Not even close to it.

    All I have done is hold certain women’s feet to the fire on immoral behaviors that place them at risk, and infer that they are rightly held accountable for them. There was no excusing of the rapes, no justification for them, just a calling to account that women who play on men’s sexuality and/or loneliness like con artists in order to treat them like appliances (read: ATM’s), or for the benefit of free labor. They are women who are begging for trouble.

    And I stand by that.

    I know that I worded things indelicately. I often do. I know that I showed a rather callous disregard for the ills that befall women whose bread and butter is gullible, sexually frustrated men.

    But I DID NOT JUSTIFY rape, or defend the rapist.

    I took the time to write this to you because your name is familiar to me and I remember reading some of your posts that were thoughtful and well balanced. Had I not I would not have bothered responding, or at least not in this fashion.

    But I do think I have earned more thoughtful scrutiny than you afforded me on this one. I don’t mind anyone taking me to task over anything I have actually done. But it does tend to bother me to when I read inferences of things I did that never happened.

    Paul

  • Tasha

    @Theodore

    “That you work fruitlessly to convince feminists that “intelligent, serious posters and commentators” are intelligent and serious–[b]which should be self-evident[/b]–”

    Yes!!!!! It SHOULD be self evident, but it very often isn’t. A lot of the time good, concise, insightful commentary gets lost in the “women are cunts” stuff that occasionally shows up. Personally, the word cunt only has the amount of power that I choose to give it, so it doesn’t bother me, but God it makes the the MRM look really bad.

    I’m NOT cracking on you guys as individuals really, my anger comes from seeing a good thing get fucked by unfortunate comments.

  • Tasha

    Hi Paul,

    This part:
    “Now, to this post, please point to me where, IN ANY WAY, I have supported the idea that I “view rape as a “natural consequence” bestowed unto women for the sin of being a woman.”

    I didn’t make it clear that that was my own summary of a general or overall opinion that frequently does get attributed to MRM sites. I didn’t intend for that bit to come across as quoting you.

    I have always shared your opinion that women do have a certain amount of responsibility when it comes to their safety. I know that if I walk naked down Congress street in Portland at midnight off my head on tequila, chances are good that something bad is going to happen to me. I don’t think regret sex = rape. I do think that women who false accuse should be prosecuted. I think if you don’t protect yourself, you’re stupid, and I, as a woman, resent the FUCK out of affirmative action, even though I benefit from it every day.

    I think, in all honesty, I was reacting to this:

    “Happy Thanksgiving, and I hope that you and yours don’t get raped this holiday season.”

    It struck me as extremely cavalier I suppose. I don’t tend to think of rape in terms of gender. I have seen and worked with both men and women who have been raped. My thoughts at the time of reading that, were “If this were said to a man, probably no one would see it as being as brutal a comment as it is”. Which lead me to be reminded of how, as far as I know, the MRM was started to bring the need for real gender equality to the fore. In this age of feminism, gender equality NECESSITATES a focus on men and men’s rights. It just makes me angry when I see good sites like this one getting caught up in the drama and losing focus.

    I’m guilty of posting too quickly and without proof reading, lol.

    Your counter points to me are valid, but I think my (now clarified) points are as well and I’d welcome more opportunity to discuss both.

  • Eoghan

    I realise that nobody’s justifying rape or defending rapists here, but IMO this topic needs to be presented very succinctly because at a glance thats what it can look like, as well as that, there is a vocal minority of fuckwit mras that will run with it as women deserve to be raped and forums that will host them, which only makes life more difficult than it needs to be for mens rights people.

  • !!SPARTA!!

    Because people tend to lack basic reading comprehension skills and draw whatever conclusion they want instead of what it actually says.

  • B. R. Merrick

    Everybody who’s got a problem with this post should read the following, again and again and again:

    Theodore Labadie:
    Feminism is non-rational. There is no way to argue with a feminist.

    Then read the post itself, again and again and again:

    I don’t mean that in the sense that they are literally asking men to rape them (though this clearly does happen outside the context of this post). What I mean is, do women who dress and act provocatively; who taunt men sexually, toying with their libidos for personal power and gain, etc., have the same type of responsibility for what happens to them as, say, someone who parks their car in a bad neighborhood with the keys in the ignition and leaves it unlocked with the motor running?

    Obviously, we still blame the car thief for the actual theft, but don’t most of us turn to the person who owned the car and at least want to ask, “What the fuck were you thinking?”

    If individuals here ever actually say anything truly irresponsible, I’ve noticed that they tend to be down-voted fairly quickly. Stop worrying about what political ideologues who clutch at the Ring like Gollum are thinking. Let them fall into the lava.

    “Precious! Precious! Precious!”

  • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com Denis

    @Tasha, thanks for caring enough to have an open mind and thinking for yourself.
    Political correctness has always hampered the mrm, many men are hurt and justifiably angry. You can always choose to disagree or feel uncomfortable enough to keep an open mind. Men are not perfect or all the same. We have many disagreements amongst ourselves. This article could have been written about the dumb men who buy women drinks, have one-night stands and are then falsely accused of rape. They put themselves in a risky situation with someone they don’t know they can trust.

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  • Balance

    @Tasha,

    ‘Gender'(-as-female) ‘equality’ is infantile nonsense. There never will be equality between the sexes because sex is biologically determined. Unless women wanna REALLY become men and die in equal numbers to secure the freedoms/comforts that women currently rape from men, ‘gender’ (that is socially constructed sex-associated differences) will never become equal either. The whole feminist rhetorical racket wherein gender is conflated with sex or vice versa is totalitarian to the core. ‘First rape the language, then rape the people’ are tried and true methods for/from mean spirited Marxists.

    Our ‘patriarchial’ priviledges, such as they are, come from being considered expendable by the ‘fairer’ sex. When your sex becomes no LESS expendable (in combat, in coal mines, on garbage trucks or whatever) come talk to us about equality but, in the meantime, please be careful about repeating ridiculous reverse-sexist falsehoods for feminist puppeteers. Equality never comes free, something that brave black men have always known but something that today’s women rarely even are willing to consider.

    Since you seem well-intentioned and willing to be open-minded, I hope you question the large dose of indoctrination we have all been fed by sly, slanderous, and ultimately stupid culture warriors. ‘Wise woman’ has become an oxymoron since feminism spread it’s ugly tentacles throughout the English-speaking world. What saddens me more than the fate of males today is how low females have fallen in terms of what makes Woman interesting. Wanna-be-man women who believe they can fight, fuck and and ‘buck’ as well as any man are tedious bores thanks, largely, to false ‘empowerment’ feminism. I, for one, am hoping for bigger, better and stronger women…rather than bigger Bitches, better Witches, or stronger Snitches.

    If you run away, I hope you do your work and come back after you know how to listen to us…and that includes calling crap ‘crap’ or hate ‘hate’. I’ll listen to you as soon as you have something interesting/original to say. I also hope you don’t take the rage here too personally but I do hope that you understand how you’re stupid Sisters (so-called) slander all women for the sins of a few.

  • in memory of lucy

    “They are freaking begging for it.”

    They are begging for it, are they?

    I have just read your diatribe out to a roomful of friends. There are 6 men in the room, and four girls. We are completely fucking horrified with your ideas.

    This is our joint response:

    Women should be able to:

    Wear what they want – just like you

    Go wherever they want at whatever time – just like you

    Have a right to say no at whatever stage of foreplay and sexual intercourse- just like you

    You enjoy those rights don’t you Paul?

    Been jogging without your Tshirt on recently? Been drunk at a club? Been about to have sex with someone and then thought, actually, nah I don’t really want to?

    Yes?

    WELL NOBODY RAPED YOU DID THEY??????

    nobody shoved their dick inside of you until you bled? Nobody destroyed your confidence, life and self esteem and left you so distraught that you wanted to kill yourself????

    Lock your daughters up…. Paul and his crazy ideas are in town.

    If your daughter is wearing a short skirt, is drunk and changes her mind like all normal human beings do at some point – then she is fucking begging for her life to be destroyed. (because that’s what happens after rape Paul- lives are destroyed).

    Your diatribe is frightening. Invest your time in making the world a better place. Not a place where more women want to kill themselves after they’ve been raped cause they can’t live another fucking day knowing that pricks like you think it’s their fault.

    • nunyabidnessfoo

      Way to ignore what he actually said

      • Guest

        Fuck off trash

  • !!SPARTA!!

    lolol
    I was a little nostalgic for this old post, and look what I find
    pure gold

    Feminists just don’t Get it

  • FreedomRider77

    Excerpt: They Succeed Admirably, by David Barash

    On the human side, and it should be emphasized that this is the primary focus of this immensely useful volume, it is intellectually refreshing to see phallometry, young male syndrome, and mating effort replacing phallocentrism, misogyny, and gender intimidation, in short, to see reality displacing rant. No ranter has been more influential, or more wrong, than the redoubtable Susan Brownmiller, whose seminal 1975 work, Against Our Will, set a standard of angry sophistry, disconnected from reality but resonating with the emerging zeitgeist of her era. Brownmiller’s famous claim that rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear, (p. 15) is worth repeating because it has been as influential as it is incorrect.

    If sociobiology has been accused rightly, on occasion, of relying too heavily on just-so stories, the received wisdom concerning rape has long been based on little more than sheer fantasy. Brownmiller (1975), once again, stated,

    For if the first rape was an unexpected battle founded on the first woman’s refusal, the second rape was indubitably planned. Indeed, one of the earliest forms of male bonding must have been the gang rape of one woman by a band of marauding men. (p. 15)

    Shades of Freud’s patricidal primal horde, such assertions have done little honor to science or feminism and have only held back the curve of understanding. (Ironically, however, a pattern not unlike that asserted by Brownmiller, 1975, has been observed among free-living chimpanzees, but since the antibiological dogma also includes the claim, abundantly falsified, that only human beings engage in rape, such evidence would presumably be ruled irrelevant.)

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  • ZimbaZumba

    @Noel
    re:- “So, I will ask again, would the man who has been falsely [of rape] accused be deserving of blame?”

    The answer to this is no, unless he has a good reason believe he has put himself in a dangerous position, eg if the woman has a long history of false accusations for which she has faced no consequences. The culpability of the false accuser is unchanged as is that of the rapist of the drunken slutty woman.

    The point is that if you put knowingly yourself in a position where there is a high probability of a crime being committed against you then you deserve a degree of criticism, you have behaved recklessly. This does not in general reduce the culpability of the criminal involved.

    99.99999% of sexual encounters or other interactions with women do not end up in rape or with false rape accusations, (even when using the worst of inflated statistics). Having sex is not a reckless endeavor wrt rape or false rape accusations.

    So the again answer to your question is no the falsely accused does not in general bear responsibility for his action. Unless you are aware of common social interactions where false rape accusations are relatively common, if so please share.

  • WoLong

    ‘there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid’

    ‘Pumped’ is an extremely sexual word in this context, meaning that you find the act arousing if you use that word to describe it. Geez, there are comment sections on porn videos.

  • Alain Borgrave

    Dear Paul,

    This article is offensive, full of contempt and criminaly ambiguous as to whom is responsible for a rape.

    It is irresponsible both for the victims of rape and for the whole Men’s rights movement. It is too easy for anyone to point to your article saying “look, that is what the MRM is all about”. It’s actually done right now on Facebook and I can just agree with these posts. I agree with them, when I initially created a FB account to defend avfm, can you understand that ?

    Honestly, it makes “a voice for men” freaking BEGGING to be censored and put on the “Hate groups” list. It’ like a neon sign hanging over avfm. And over the whole MRM by the way. Wich is a pity since ther’s much more in the MRM than this kind of crap.

    PS: yes there are people playing with other’s emotions and desires and I agree it is a lack of respect that is painful to endure and we men are often played with in this manner. But no these persons are not begging to be raped. They’re not begging to be raped exactly as a disrespectful husband is not begging to be killed by his wife. There’s no neon sign over these husbands’ heads saying “please kill me”.

    • http://feministlies.wordpress.com/ Theaverageman

      Article post date 2010 I personally don’t agree with a word of this article howwver you have to understand that in the infancy of AVFM Paul elam used controversy to make the site what it is today.

      Try find an article that is 1/10th as offensive as this article posted within the last year.Well you can’t as AVFM is now self sustaining in its traffic.

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  • XLeilaX

    Okay. We’ve all been taught that women should keep their wits about them if they want to be safe. We don’t want to give anyone an opportunity, although sometimes it’s just a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, precautions should always be taken.

    What is really baffling me, is that you’re equating heavy flirting without sex as an end game to some sort of psychological torture/abuse.

    Newsflash, women are capable of flirting or making out with a guy because they simply WANT TO. Because they get turned on by it, like guys do. Because we are human beings, and not some sort of sub species.
    The majority of women don’t use their elusive vagina manipulate men, and we are certainly NOT “trained to do this from birth”.

    I don’t think most men are that desperate or stupid to spend a shit ton of money on a stranger assuming that it’ll get him laid.
    By your logic, they are partly responsible for the feelings of frustration, disappointment and regret they may feel afterwards. They should’ve been smart enough to stay away from the evil temptress, because there was no guarantee they’ll laid, and now they’re left with a boner and an empty wallet…

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      Consider the possibility that men are human beings, not sub-humans, and that the real problem with your script is that you’ve got it backwards: your view is gynocentric and places women and their needs and desires at the top, and makes men’s needs and desires totally play second fiddle to that, like WE are the sub-humans and what WE feel and think and experience matters less than what goes on with women.

      Being a cock-tease IS abusive. And if you want to be treated like an equal human being (as opposed to a specially-privileged person who’s a little more equal than us) then you should be ready to be called out on your bullshit and on your own abusive behavior, or the abusive behaviors of others who happen to be female.

      • XLeilaX

        Are we obligated to “give it up”?
        99% of girls don’t go into this with a gameplan. They’re having fun with a guy, and they’re turned on and everything, but they have a certain boundary they don’t want to cross. That doesn’t mean everything they did with him up to that point was for laughs.
        Maybe they thought they were ready to go all the way, but then changed their minds and realised they weren’t comfortable with it.

        I never insinuated that men’s desires aren’t important, the whole “evil temptress” thing was meant to be tongue in cheek, in reference to what Paul said about the opportunistic nature of shitty human beings.

        I think it’s marginally better to not get to do what you want to do then to do somethin you don’t want to do, against your conscience.
        There’s no point having sex with someone when you’re not totally into it, it’ll ruin the experience for both people.

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          I think what you’re obligated to do is recognize when you’re acting like an asshole and cut it the fuck out, not whine when someone calls you out for acting like an asshole.

          It’s called being adult and being expected to act like a decent human being.

          • XLeilaX

            You can call me whatever you want, I was just explaining my point.
            Come up with a real argument in response instead of labelling it “whining”

        • Kimski

          • XLeilaX

            Yeah, well, if you’re half naked, someone is going to compliment your exposed appendages, you can’t be surprised that someone thinks the attention is warranted.
            I mean, if I was dressed like a hooker, and someone mistook me for one, I wouldn’t be outraged or anything, as long as the guy respectfully moved on after the incident.

      • XLeilaX

        Bear in mind that men can be cock-teases too.
        I don’t know if there’s a word for it…cunt-tease?
        Women get lead on and denied sex too, so don’t put the pussy on a pedastal, because it doesn’t always get what it wants.
        This article is vilifying women with perfectly good intentions.
        It’s practically sayin that if we’re not up for sex, we shouldn’t have sexually related interactions with anyone in case the guy happens to overreact to the situation and consider rape.

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          I don’t think it’s vilifying women with perfectly good intentions at all, it’s pointing out selfish and thoughtless behavior. The world is full of articles about what jerks men can be and all they supposedly do wrong, someone calls out women for once and your knickers are in a twist? Whatevs, dude.

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          By the way, have you ever looked at the rate at which women sexually force themselves on men? The pretense that rape is overwhelmingly a male-on-female problem is widely held and demonstrably wrong.

          Let us know if you’re ever curious about that. We live in a society that constantly demonizes male sexuality and pedastalizes female sexuality, and ironically enough you seem to me to be doing that very thing here in your comments, although that is probably not your intent.

      • Paul Muriello

        Yes, being manipulative is morally wrong; so the fuck what? You’ll need to say more before I can accept the conclusion that we should feel anything but sympathy toward women who have been raped, and anything but scorn toward the men who raped them. And vice versa on the genders.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

          Many things are heinously wrong and unforgivable but you can still look at the victim and say they did something wrong; if I punch you and you stab me in response and kill me, I was STILL wrong to punch you. This is not about “it’s OK to rape anyone.” It isn’t. It never is.

          • Paul Muriello

            Maybe you should read my comment again, comprehend what I’m saying, and THEN form a response.

            And no, you can never say the victim did something wrong. Not coherently, anyway.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            I think you need to take your advice.

            Let me ask you something: if you slap me in the face because I said something wrong, did you do something wrong? Yes or no.

            If I respond to your slapping me in the face by pulling out a gun and shooting you in the face, have I still done something heinous and far worse than a face-slap? Yes or no.

          • Paul Muriello

            Yes and yes. But when you and people like you talk about victims doing something wrong, you’re using it as a way to shift at least some of the blame onto their shoulders. So my response here is the same; yes it’s wrong to slap, but so the fuck what? Yes it’s wrong to mislead, but so the fuck what? None of this implies culpability for these consequences of getting shot/raped. And none of this gets to my original point which was contrary to Elam’s insane misogynist view, we should always be feeling sympathy for victims, and contempt for assailants.

          • dungone

            Paul, people specifically said that “shooting” (raping) people is inexcusable. I don’t think you can say otherwise because this has been made perfectly clear over and over again.

          • Paul Muriello

            But Elam’s article suggest that we shouldn’t feel any (or at least less) sympathy toward the “shot” (raped). That’s clearly not true.

          • dungone

            Paul, a lessened sense of sympathy isn’t the same as denying someone justice or a supportive healing process.

            Speaking of sympathy, it’s nowhere to be found when feminists hold all men responsible for all rape, regarding everyone as a would-be rapist. Elam was describing what he sees as women creating a toxic environment for men, so where’s the sympathy for that? That’s the irony of it I suppose – the article, and people’s negative reactions to it, serve to show men’s rights activists just how unsympathetic people are towards men.

          • Paul Muriello

            So what if feeling less sympathy isn’t the same as denying justice or support? It’s still unjustified.

            And feminists don’t “hold all men responsible for all rape,” that’s a strawman. And I do have sympathy for anyone who is willfully and intentionally manipulated in the way Elam finds distasteful, although certainly much less than I would have for a rape survivor, and rightfully so. The “negative reaction” (what I call reasonable reaction) comes in when Elam claims that women who willfully and intentionally manipulate men are begging to be raped. Maybe instead of rushing to defend such a plainly indefensible claim, you should ask yourself why you feel compelled to rush to its defense.

          • dungone

            You’re veering off into thoughtcrime territory with your attempt to police what others have sympathy for. You afford them justice and a supportive environment to heal in and that’s it. You don’t have to venerate their victimhood. Especially when they, and people like them, played a role in creating the very environment that they’re all so stridently against. My sympathy never supplants my reason.

          • Paul Muriello

            Oh please. If I were here saying we shouldn’t feel sympathy for rape victims who are male, or we shouldn’t feel sympathy for fathers who are unjustly denied custody of their children, you’d be saying the same things I am, and you’d be right to do so. You’re just trying to get a rhetorical toe-hold with disingenuous nonsense.

            A person is deserving of sympathy when some harm they suffer was not deserved. Therefore, if, as Elam says, nobody deserves rape, then all rape victims deserve sympathy.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            I guess I just don’t read it the way you do. I have a friend who was mugged and beaten and had a bunch of money stolen. Those who did it to him knew he was going into a store to cash a check, as he was in the habit of doing that weekly, and they stole his money. I had sympathy for him–but he and I both agreed he had been acting foolishly to be walking around a bad neighborhood and regularly and obviously cashing a very large check there.

            By the way, they broke his jaw and his nose and he lost four teeth and had to be hospitalized for a concussion. But we both still agree he acted foolishly and should have been more cautious. He stopped acting foolishly.

            Of course since he was a male victim of violence–and males are the most frequent target of violence, sexual or otherwise–most people will not take what happened to him seriously. I do because I’m his friend and he’s important to me.

          • Paul Muriello

            First, your assertion that people will not take seriously what happened to your friend seems baseless, a dig at phantom misandrists. Only a sociopath would just shrug after being told about something like that. I’m sorry that happened to your friend, he certainly didn’t deserve that, nor is the fact that “foolish” behavior, if that’s what YOU want to call it, gave others a greater opportunity to victimize him reason to feel any less sympathy for him, nor any less contempt for his assailants.

            But that’s the problem Elam is facing; contrary to his (gross misogynistic) claim in this article, the fact that your friend gave others a greater opportunity to victimize him doesn’t seem to entail that we feel any less sympathy for him, nor any less contempt for his assailants.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            It is exactly what happened to my friend when he reported it to police and when he reported it to others.

            Men are by far the majority of victims of violence, sexual and otherwise. The fact that most people don’t even know that should tell you something about the times we live in.

          • Paul Muriello

            OK, now I know you’re lying. If the police didn’t take your friend’s beating and mugging seriously it has nothing to do with him being a man, and everything to do with them being shitty police. Some of my male friends have been mugged while in bad neighborhoods and were treated well by the police. Ditto for their friends and family. And your decision to begin talking about men and victimhood only tells me one thing: you’re a dishonest shit that can’t stay on topic.

        • Astrokid

          Discussion on Raw Story
          For The Misogynist Trolls: Your Repulsive Personality Is Not Inevitable
          Paul Muriello • 9 months ago
          In the grand tradition of MRAs arguing with strawfeminists, you’ve mischaracterized Marcotte’s argument. Marcotte is not arguing that all MRAs are angry because they don’t get sex, therefore they ought to follow her advice; rather, that the MRAs who are angry BECAUSE they don’t get sex need to first stop blaming women, then follow her advice. Your tired “WHAT IF THE GENDERS WERE REVERSED HMMMM????” gambit incorrectly characterizes her argument as the former, rather than the latter. So to answer your question, yes, your rewrite is offensive, but the original makes a sufficiently different argument such that it is not offensive.

          Moreover, even if you were to amend your rewrite to properly characterize the original, you would now be dealing with fiction rather than fact. Feminists, unlike MRAs, don’t have the tendency to engage in screeching, nauseating whining about their lack of romantic lives. Sure, some feminists do have less sex than they’d like, but when they talk about it they do so without that repugnant sense of entitlement that seems to permeate MRA ideology on the matter

          Hey retard asshole.. why didnt you first declare that you are a male feminist, a fan of Amanda Marcotte to boot, with contempt for MRAs? I will return the favor.

          we should have sympathy towards the woman who has been raped in the situation described in this article, and scorn toward men? Fuck you asshole. I will have no sympathy towards the woman who puts herself in a dangerous situation.

          And stop acting like rape is the greatest crime. Go read some Maggie McNeil, who says in http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/a-fate-worse-than-death/

          Before we go any further, let me assure you that I know whereof I speak: I have been raped several times, and the first instance (in May of 1995) was rape by even the strictest, most unforgiving and most legalistic standard. It was a terrifying experience, but it did not destroy me and was not the worst thing ever to happen to me; in fact, it wasn’t even the worst thing to happen to me that year. Yet nearly every time someone finds out about it for the first time, he or she acts as though it happened last night, as though this one kind of trauma had the unique ability to cause permanent and irremediable damage. The dominant cultural narrative is that both men and women can get over just about any personal tragedy – financial ruin, the loss of a limb or a loved one, persecution by governmental authorities, etc – except rape, which if it doesn’t leave a woman a psychological wreck is supposed to at least cast a dark pall over the rest of her life.

          You dont agree and have a different value system? Fuck off from here. We are not trying to reach male feminists.

          • Paul Muriello

            I didn’t say I was a feminist because my feminism is irrelevant; you should respond to my arguments and not accuse me of being a feminist thought criminal.

            Second, you’ve merely asserted without justification that you would feel no sympathy for a woman who has “put herself” in a “dangerous situation,” whatever you meant by this. I suggest you respond to my argument for why we ought to feel sympathy for victims, even if our misogyny compels us otherwise.

            Also, I never said rape was the greatest crime. It’s kind of amusing that you would quote me castigating MRAs who argue with strawfeminists then go on to argue with a strawfeminist. And I’m glad Maggie McNeil was not traumatized by her rape, but McNeil’s experience is not everyone’s. Many (most?) rape survivors do consider it one of the worst things that’s ever happened to them.

            Finally, I don’t particularly care what audience Elam is trying to reach. All I know is that he’s saying some fucked up repugnant shit which demands refutation.

          • Astrokid

            Fuck you asshole..your feminism is relevant. Yeah.. I will respond to your arguments. Thats what you did when I brought up the corresponding situation of Catherine Commins. you responded with “who cares”?

            “respond to arguments”. Thats what your feminists did at our numerous events held in Canada, at our Detroit conference and so on. Thats what they did to Erin Pizzey, Christina Hoff Sommers, Camille Paglia, Cathy Young over the last several decades. respond to arguments.
            Oh.. you are refuting Elam’s “repugnant shit”, eh? Nothing is more repugnant than a male feminist in this day and age. What do we have here? the next charles clymer?

          • Paul Muriello

            I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that an MRA has nothing but tu quoque nonsense and baseless invective. Hit me up when you have something of substance to say.

        • Astrokid

          Where was the feminist outrage when feminists offered no sympathy to the abuse men go through at the hands of women and the System.

          “[The falsely accused] have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them. I think it ideally initiates a process of self-exploration. ‘How do I see women?’ ‘If I did not violate her, could I have?’ … Those are good questions.”
          — Catherine Comins, assistant dean of students at Vassar College; TIME Magazine (June 3 1992)?

          Funny how Paul Elam’s old article is all the rage, but this article published in TIME is A-OK, and the feminist in question is a Dean at Vassar College.. lot more powerful than a Paul Elam.

          • Paul Muriello

            Who cares where the feminist outrage went? How is that relevant here? I know it’s terribly difficult for MRAs to have an honest discussion, but you’re pretty obviously trying to derail the conversation from the topic at hand. Dean Esmay is trying to do the same thing elsewhere, so maybe you guys have handbook to reference when you’re clearly losing an argument? I dunno. It’s kinda pathetic though!

          • Astrokid

            who cares? LOL
            I “derail” the discussion to demonstrate what an asshole you are.
            And ooh.. yeah.. we are “clearly losing the argument”. you amanda-marcotte fanboy idiot..

          • Paul Muriello

            How am I the asshole here? You just posted an out of context quote from someone that isn’t even me. What does that “demonstrate” apart from the fact that you’re a disingenuous moron?

  • notsince67

    Paul,

    Guess you were that guy who though because he bought a girl a couple vodka-somethings you we owed a busted nut eh?

    Maybe try losing a pound or fifty. And stop being a SUCKER ya dumbass. Girls buy ME drinks ;)

  • notsince67

    Paul.

    I thought you weren’t a loser till I saw this. If you ever come to my town to do a speech or something like that (I doubt it, you’re probably too scared to get away from your computer) I’m gonna bitch slap you. If no one is around, I’m gonna stick my D in your ass and show you what a mangina is.

    Go cry about that.

  • Andrew Ulrich

    Eh, I’m actually starting to hate this article.

    While I can’t wholly agree or disagree with everything said here, every time I start talking about men’s issues with a feminist and they actually start to change their minds, this article inevitably comes up.

    I get it’s purpose, I really do, and I’m all for freedom of speech, but this is closing off minds that we might have changed. It’s shock value is such that it’s counter productive.

    • Reason

      I’d put it this way: If Fred came up to Dave and started shouting obscenities at Dave’s face with the sheer intent of getting him angry, then Dave punched Fred, would Fred have NO responsibility whatsoever for the outcome? Of course he would. Exploitative “teasing” IS sexual abuse, since one person is deliberately creating sexual arousal under false pretenses. It also qualifies as fraud at times, since a false promise is being made or implied in order to gain something (eg: would the man have bought/continued to buy the drinks if the girl did not imply sex would be the reward?).

      I don’t think the article excuses rape. I sincerely hope not. I get from it that exploitative teasing sets a stage for a rape that would not have taken place otherwise. Culturally, manipulative teasing is accepted and made fun of in movies, commercials – everywhere. It is clearly wrong and needs to be stopped just as much as any other form of sexual abuse.

      By the way, a vast majority of fights in bars between men start with this very process.

  • Reason

    I dunno…why not take HER word for it instead of trying to dictate her values? You know, like the right to self-determination you want for you, but not for her? Your over-privileged Western feminist roots are showing.

    http://www.islamicinsights.com/religion/religion/why-wear-the-hijab.html

  • Reason

    So aside from your anti-Muslim sentiments, you feel that Muslims are faithless, oppressed people? Or that Muslims approve of rape? I guess either way, your opinion is as good as any privilege guess. I mean, what exactly IS your point, after you’ve peeled away the careful wording?

  • solar toad

    Yickes. How absolutely creepy can you get? Oh my god,

  • Paul Muriello

    I feel like you don’t know what the words “begging” or “demanding” mean.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

    I agree with many of the things feminists say. I wish their actions would more often match their words, if they did I would still be one.

    I am proud of my appearance on television and wish I’d had a chance to say more.

    There was nothing misogynistic about this article, in fact, calling it misogynistic identifies the hidden lack of respect for women most self-described feminists have. If we have flipped the script and made it about men who behave that way and women who finally have a violent response, you likely would not have objected. That said, it was admittedly provocative.

    There have been people talking about the issues we talk about, strictly sticking to facts, for more than 30 years only to be marginalized, laughed at, spit on, and/or ignored. Now you say you would be on our side if we just stuck to facts? I don’t have any reason to believe you, because decades of experience has shown me most people won’t. Activism requires inflaming passions. I don’t have to like it to know it’s true.

    Your comment is deleted due to personal attacks, if you want to make it again without the personal attacks, go ahead, otherwise, please just go away, you’re all talk and no action.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

    As mentioned to your other comment, your comment is deleted due to personal attacks. I will repeat: I suspect that if we had flipped the script and made the abuser male and the retaliator female you wouldn’t even be here. The fact is that people have been talking factually for 30, 40 years about these issues and been laughed at, marginalized, spit on, mischaracterized, or just ignored. Activism requires inflaming tempers. Still, it says much that your reaction here is entirely emotional and not logical.

    Your comment will be deleted but if you want to make it again, minus the personal attacks, you can continue to comment here. If you can’t drop the personal attacks, you will just be banned.

  • Astrokid

    You are a former MRA and you have distanced yourself.. so much so that you come back here and comment. LOL

    So you fight for mens issues heh? Nice.. I was waiting for you to say Patriarchy hurts the menz too.

    And the feminists who “derail our issues” have been doing so for 50 years now, and have been growing in strength every decade. They have support from the State, support from corporations.. the two biggest players in the world. Traditionalists and feminists supposedly hate each other, but they work separately to improve women’s conditions and privileges.

    Have you folks listened to old timer MRAs such as Harry Crouch President of NCFM.org, explain why there is no political support from either party? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TwgSKx4FBs

    Have you listened to well respected old time MRA AngryHarry?

    You newbies have come along for the ride after old time MRAs have fought for decades, and the one-time they used provocative rhetoric became a big deal to you. And that rhetoric comes nowhere near close to feminist rhetoric.
    http://franklyno.tumblr.com/post/62192542728/part-1-o-part-2-o-part-3-transcript-sources

    You could support (especially financially) NCFM.org, Saveservices, CAFE, or any of the other milder MRM orgs. Do you? nope. Instead you come and whine here. You freaking crabs in the bucket.