Cause-and-Effect

Challenging the Etiology of Rape

We have all heard it before.  Any time a “serious” discussion of rape makes it to national airwaves, there is always the obligatory feminist pinhead, presented as the expert du jour that somehow feels compelled to admonish all of us to remember that rape is not about sex, but power; not about physical attraction, but about control and domination.

Of course it all goes back to the need to document every ill in the world as an artifact of patriarchy, whether it has anything to do with patriarchy or not.  That is often the case with feminists, as most of their “theories” on modern culture require a systemic, sinister and patently patriarchal male villain, or those theories fall apart at their shoddily sewn seams.

These morons could actually make one wonder (if one moronically chooses to take them seriously) why women are the chosen targets for rape (outside of prison) at all – if it has nothing to do with sex.  If it is just about power, shouldn’t the primary victims be children or the elderly?

This brings  up a few more questions that we are usually very hesitant to address outside of PC control.

But first, let’s listen to Uncle Bern, who recently addressed this topic in his typical no nonsense manner:

Now, let’s take it a step further that just acknowledging the fact that using our brains forces us to concede that rape is, in fact, about sex and reproduction. Indeed, that’s the only thing that makes any sense at all. Since the PC edicts to believe otherwise are wasted in a place like this, it raises yet another question that needs to be asked.

Do women ask for it?

I don’t mean that in the sense that they are literally asking men to rape them (though this clearly does happen outside the context of this post). What I mean is, do women who act provocatively; who taunt men sexually, toying with their libidos for personal power and gain, etc., have the same type of responsibility for what happens to them as, say, someone who parks their car in a bad neighborhood with the keys in the ignition and leaves it unlocked with the motor running?

Obviously, we still blame the car thief for the actual theft, but don’t most of us turn to the person who owned the car and at least want to ask, “What the fuck were you thinking?”

Wouldn’t the insurance company take a dim view of paying a claim in the midst of such stupid irresponsibility?

We should, though, also remember that at least the guy who set himself up to have his car jacked wasn’t doing anything sinister to begin with.  Stupid, but not sinister. We can’t say the same for some of these women.

In that light, I have ideas about women who spend evenings in bars hustling men for drinks, playing on their sexual desires so they can get shitfaced on the beta dole; paying their bar tab with the pussy pass. And the women who drink and make out, doing everything short of sex with men all evening, and then go to his apartment at 2:00 a.m.. Sometimes both of these women end up being the “victims” of rape.

But are these women asking to get raped?

In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED.

They are freaking begging for it.

Damn near demanding it.

And all the outraged PC demands to get huffy and point out how nothing justifies or excuses rape won’t change the fact that there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I’M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH – PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.

In my opinion their plight from being raped should draw about as much sympathy as a man who loses a wallet full of cash after leaving it laying around a bus station unattended.

“Deserved” is a different topic. But perhaps if we start curbing our automatic outrage over what happens to women who are begging for and even insisting on trouble, then maybe a few of them will be more prone to decisions that turn out a little better for them.

Just sayin.’

[addendum] I have noted the objections of some MRA’s here to the perspective expressed in this article about the etiology of rape.  After careful consideration, I reject those concerns.  I am not painting men as incapable of controlling their sexual impulses, but simply acknowledging that there is a tiny fraction of men who, for whatever reason, won’t.  And I am suggesting that if women are concerned about their safety from a crime like rape, a common sense acceptance of that and choices consistent with that knowledge are in order.  I may not have said it as delicately as some would prefer, but the message was clear nonetheless.

About Paul Elam

Paul Elam is the founder and publisher of A Voice for Men, the founder of A Voice for Men Radio, and appears weekly on AVFM Intelligence Report, Going Mental with Dr. Tara Palmatier and monthly on MANstream Media with Warren Farrell and Tom Golden.

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  • Tasha

    It’s so disappointing to spend time on other blogs trying to explain to feminists that the MRM isn’t a hate movement, that the intelligent, serious posters and commentators are NOT woman haters, that they DON’T really view rape as a “natural consequence” bestowed unto women for the sin of being a woman, and then come here, to a blog I’ve followed causally for about a year, used regularly by a writer/activist I used to admire very much, and see said writer engaging in the very behaviors that feminists scream about him being guilty of.

    It makes me genuinely frustrated for the mens rights movement.

  • http://fatalplanet.blogspot.com/ Theodore Labadie

    @ Tasha:

    Perhaps the world is so far gone that MRAs think appeasement has worse than a snowball’s chance.

    That you work fruitlessly to convince feminists that “intelligent, serious posters and commentators” are intelligent and serious–which should be self-evident–only proves that feminists cannot be reached. Feminism is non-rational. There is no way to argue with a feminist.

    I say screw feminists, and pour all of our energies into reaching men.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    Hi Tasha,

    With all respect, I think your frustrations are better served elsewhere.

    And again, with genuine respect, I think you should strive for a better understanding of the OP than you have.

    First, though, I don’t think it serves us well to defend MRA’s a not being woman haters. It is like a man answering the question “How often to you beat your wife?” It is engaging them in a debate they have designed to keep us on the defensive.

    Now, to this post, please point to me where, IN ANY WAY, I have supported the idea that I “view rape as a “natural consequence” bestowed unto women for the sin of being a woman.”

    There is nothing here of the sort. Not even close to it.

    All I have done is hold certain women’s feet to the fire on immoral behaviors that place them at risk, and infer that they are rightly held accountable for them. There was no excusing of the rapes, no justification for them, just a calling to account that women who play on men’s sexuality and/or loneliness like con artists in order to treat them like appliances (read: ATM’s), or for the benefit of free labor. They are women who are begging for trouble.

    And I stand by that.

    I know that I worded things indelicately. I often do. I know that I showed a rather callous disregard for the ills that befall women whose bread and butter is gullible, sexually frustrated men.

    But I DID NOT JUSTIFY rape, or defend the rapist.

    I took the time to write this to you because your name is familiar to me and I remember reading some of your posts that were thoughtful and well balanced. Had I not I would not have bothered responding, or at least not in this fashion.

    But I do think I have earned more thoughtful scrutiny than you afforded me on this one. I don’t mind anyone taking me to task over anything I have actually done. But it does tend to bother me to when I read inferences of things I did that never happened.

    Paul

  • Tasha

    @Theodore

    “That you work fruitlessly to convince feminists that “intelligent, serious posters and commentators” are intelligent and serious–[b]which should be self-evident[/b]–”

    Yes!!!!! It SHOULD be self evident, but it very often isn’t. A lot of the time good, concise, insightful commentary gets lost in the “women are cunts” stuff that occasionally shows up. Personally, the word cunt only has the amount of power that I choose to give it, so it doesn’t bother me, but God it makes the the MRM look really bad.

    I’m NOT cracking on you guys as individuals really, my anger comes from seeing a good thing get fucked by unfortunate comments.

  • Tasha

    Hi Paul,

    This part:
    “Now, to this post, please point to me where, IN ANY WAY, I have supported the idea that I “view rape as a “natural consequence” bestowed unto women for the sin of being a woman.”

    I didn’t make it clear that that was my own summary of a general or overall opinion that frequently does get attributed to MRM sites. I didn’t intend for that bit to come across as quoting you.

    I have always shared your opinion that women do have a certain amount of responsibility when it comes to their safety. I know that if I walk naked down Congress street in Portland at midnight off my head on tequila, chances are good that something bad is going to happen to me. I don’t think regret sex = rape. I do think that women who false accuse should be prosecuted. I think if you don’t protect yourself, you’re stupid, and I, as a woman, resent the FUCK out of affirmative action, even though I benefit from it every day.

    I think, in all honesty, I was reacting to this:

    “Happy Thanksgiving, and I hope that you and yours don’t get raped this holiday season.”

    It struck me as extremely cavalier I suppose. I don’t tend to think of rape in terms of gender. I have seen and worked with both men and women who have been raped. My thoughts at the time of reading that, were “If this were said to a man, probably no one would see it as being as brutal a comment as it is”. Which lead me to be reminded of how, as far as I know, the MRM was started to bring the need for real gender equality to the fore. In this age of feminism, gender equality NECESSITATES a focus on men and men’s rights. It just makes me angry when I see good sites like this one getting caught up in the drama and losing focus.

    I’m guilty of posting too quickly and without proof reading, lol.

    Your counter points to me are valid, but I think my (now clarified) points are as well and I’d welcome more opportunity to discuss both.

  • Eoghan

    I realise that nobody’s justifying rape or defending rapists here, but IMO this topic needs to be presented very succinctly because at a glance thats what it can look like, as well as that, there is a vocal minority of fuckwit mras that will run with it as women deserve to be raped and forums that will host them, which only makes life more difficult than it needs to be for mens rights people.

  • !!SPARTA!!

    Because people tend to lack basic reading comprehension skills and draw whatever conclusion they want instead of what it actually says.

  • B. R. Merrick

    Everybody who’s got a problem with this post should read the following, again and again and again:

    Theodore Labadie:
    Feminism is non-rational. There is no way to argue with a feminist.

    Then read the post itself, again and again and again:

    I don’t mean that in the sense that they are literally asking men to rape them (though this clearly does happen outside the context of this post). What I mean is, do women who dress and act provocatively; who taunt men sexually, toying with their libidos for personal power and gain, etc., have the same type of responsibility for what happens to them as, say, someone who parks their car in a bad neighborhood with the keys in the ignition and leaves it unlocked with the motor running?

    Obviously, we still blame the car thief for the actual theft, but don’t most of us turn to the person who owned the car and at least want to ask, “What the fuck were you thinking?”

    If individuals here ever actually say anything truly irresponsible, I’ve noticed that they tend to be down-voted fairly quickly. Stop worrying about what political ideologues who clutch at the Ring like Gollum are thinking. Let them fall into the lava.

    “Precious! Precious! Precious!”

  • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com Denis

    @Tasha, thanks for caring enough to have an open mind and thinking for yourself.
    Political correctness has always hampered the mrm, many men are hurt and justifiably angry. You can always choose to disagree or feel uncomfortable enough to keep an open mind. Men are not perfect or all the same. We have many disagreements amongst ourselves. This article could have been written about the dumb men who buy women drinks, have one-night stands and are then falsely accused of rape. They put themselves in a risky situation with someone they don’t know they can trust.

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  • Balance

    @Tasha,

    ‘Gender’(-as-female) ‘equality’ is infantile nonsense. There never will be equality between the sexes because sex is biologically determined. Unless women wanna REALLY become men and die in equal numbers to secure the freedoms/comforts that women currently rape from men, ‘gender’ (that is socially constructed sex-associated differences) will never become equal either. The whole feminist rhetorical racket wherein gender is conflated with sex or vice versa is totalitarian to the core. ‘First rape the language, then rape the people’ are tried and true methods for/from mean spirited Marxists.

    Our ‘patriarchial’ priviledges, such as they are, come from being considered expendable by the ‘fairer’ sex. When your sex becomes no LESS expendable (in combat, in coal mines, on garbage trucks or whatever) come talk to us about equality but, in the meantime, please be careful about repeating ridiculous reverse-sexist falsehoods for feminist puppeteers. Equality never comes free, something that brave black men have always known but something that today’s women rarely even are willing to consider.

    Since you seem well-intentioned and willing to be open-minded, I hope you question the large dose of indoctrination we have all been fed by sly, slanderous, and ultimately stupid culture warriors. ‘Wise woman’ has become an oxymoron since feminism spread it’s ugly tentacles throughout the English-speaking world. What saddens me more than the fate of males today is how low females have fallen in terms of what makes Woman interesting. Wanna-be-man women who believe they can fight, fuck and and ‘buck’ as well as any man are tedious bores thanks, largely, to false ‘empowerment’ feminism. I, for one, am hoping for bigger, better and stronger women…rather than bigger Bitches, better Witches, or stronger Snitches.

    If you run away, I hope you do your work and come back after you know how to listen to us…and that includes calling crap ‘crap’ or hate ‘hate’. I’ll listen to you as soon as you have something interesting/original to say. I also hope you don’t take the rage here too personally but I do hope that you understand how you’re stupid Sisters (so-called) slander all women for the sins of a few.

  • in memory of lucy

    “They are freaking begging for it.”

    They are begging for it, are they?

    I have just read your diatribe out to a roomful of friends. There are 6 men in the room, and four girls. We are completely fucking horrified with your ideas.

    This is our joint response:

    Women should be able to:

    Wear what they want – just like you

    Go wherever they want at whatever time – just like you

    Have a right to say no at whatever stage of foreplay and sexual intercourse- just like you

    You enjoy those rights don’t you Paul?

    Been jogging without your Tshirt on recently? Been drunk at a club? Been about to have sex with someone and then thought, actually, nah I don’t really want to?

    Yes?

    WELL NOBODY RAPED YOU DID THEY??????

    nobody shoved their dick inside of you until you bled? Nobody destroyed your confidence, life and self esteem and left you so distraught that you wanted to kill yourself????

    Lock your daughters up…. Paul and his crazy ideas are in town.

    If your daughter is wearing a short skirt, is drunk and changes her mind like all normal human beings do at some point – then she is fucking begging for her life to be destroyed. (because that’s what happens after rape Paul- lives are destroyed).

    Your diatribe is frightening. Invest your time in making the world a better place. Not a place where more women want to kill themselves after they’ve been raped cause they can’t live another fucking day knowing that pricks like you think it’s their fault.

    • nunyabidnessfoo

      Way to ignore what he actually said

  • !!SPARTA!!

    lolol
    I was a little nostalgic for this old post, and look what I find
    pure gold

    Feminists just don’t Get it

  • FreedomRider77

    Excerpt: They Succeed Admirably, by David Barash

    On the human side, and it should be emphasized that this is the primary focus of this immensely useful volume, it is intellectually refreshing to see phallometry, young male syndrome, and mating effort replacing phallocentrism, misogyny, and gender intimidation, in short, to see reality displacing rant. No ranter has been more influential, or more wrong, than the redoubtable Susan Brownmiller, whose seminal 1975 work, Against Our Will, set a standard of angry sophistry, disconnected from reality but resonating with the emerging zeitgeist of her era. Brownmiller’s famous claim that rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear, (p. 15) is worth repeating because it has been as influential as it is incorrect.

    If sociobiology has been accused rightly, on occasion, of relying too heavily on just-so stories, the received wisdom concerning rape has long been based on little more than sheer fantasy. Brownmiller (1975), once again, stated,

    For if the first rape was an unexpected battle founded on the first woman’s refusal, the second rape was indubitably planned. Indeed, one of the earliest forms of male bonding must have been the gang rape of one woman by a band of marauding men. (p. 15)

    Shades of Freud’s patricidal primal horde, such assertions have done little honor to science or feminism and have only held back the curve of understanding. (Ironically, however, a pattern not unlike that asserted by Brownmiller, 1975, has been observed among free-living chimpanzees, but since the antibiological dogma also includes the claim, abundantly falsified, that only human beings engage in rape, such evidence would presumably be ruled irrelevant.)

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  • ZimbaZumba

    @Noel
    re:- “So, I will ask again, would the man who has been falsely [of rape] accused be deserving of blame?”

    The answer to this is no, unless he has a good reason believe he has put himself in a dangerous position, eg if the woman has a long history of false accusations for which she has faced no consequences. The culpability of the false accuser is unchanged as is that of the rapist of the drunken slutty woman.

    The point is that if you put knowingly yourself in a position where there is a high probability of a crime being committed against you then you deserve a degree of criticism, you have behaved recklessly. This does not in general reduce the culpability of the criminal involved.

    99.99999% of sexual encounters or other interactions with women do not end up in rape or with false rape accusations, (even when using the worst of inflated statistics). Having sex is not a reckless endeavor wrt rape or false rape accusations.

    So the again answer to your question is no the falsely accused does not in general bear responsibility for his action. Unless you are aware of common social interactions where false rape accusations are relatively common, if so please share.

  • WoLong

    ‘there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid’

    ‘Pumped’ is an extremely sexual word in this context, meaning that you find the act arousing if you use that word to describe it. Geez, there are comment sections on porn videos.

  • Alain Borgrave

    Dear Paul,

    This article is offensive, full of contempt and criminaly ambiguous as to whom is responsible for a rape.

    It is irresponsible both for the victims of rape and for the whole Men’s rights movement. It is too easy for anyone to point to your article saying “look, that is what the MRM is all about”. It’s actually done right now on Facebook and I can just agree with these posts. I agree with them, when I initially created a FB account to defend avfm, can you understand that ?

    Honestly, it makes “a voice for men” freaking BEGGING to be censored and put on the “Hate groups” list. It’ like a neon sign hanging over avfm. And over the whole MRM by the way. Wich is a pity since ther’s much more in the MRM than this kind of crap.

    PS: yes there are people playing with other’s emotions and desires and I agree it is a lack of respect that is painful to endure and we men are often played with in this manner. But no these persons are not begging to be raped. They’re not begging to be raped exactly as a disrespectful husband is not begging to be killed by his wife. There’s no neon sign over these husbands’ heads saying “please kill me”.

    • http://feministlies.wordpress.com/ Theaverageman

      Article post date 2010 I personally don’t agree with a word of this article howwver you have to understand that in the infancy of AVFM Paul elam used controversy to make the site what it is today.

      Try find an article that is 1/10th as offensive as this article posted within the last year.Well you can’t as AVFM is now self sustaining in its traffic.

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  • XLeilaX

    Okay. We’ve all been taught that women should keep their wits about them if they want to be safe. We don’t want to give anyone an opportunity, although sometimes it’s just a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, precautions should always be taken.

    What is really baffling me, is that you’re equating heavy flirting without sex as an end game to some sort of psychological torture/abuse.

    Newsflash, women are capable of flirting or making out with a guy because they simply WANT TO. Because they get turned on by it, like guys do. Because we are human beings, and not some sort of sub species.
    The majority of women don’t use their elusive vagina manipulate men, and we are certainly NOT “trained to do this from birth”.

    I don’t think most men are that desperate or stupid to spend a shit ton of money on a stranger assuming that it’ll get him laid.
    By your logic, they are partly responsible for the feelings of frustration, disappointment and regret they may feel afterwards. They should’ve been smart enough to stay away from the evil temptress, because there was no guarantee they’ll laid, and now they’re left with a boner and an empty wallet…

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      Consider the possibility that men are human beings, not sub-humans, and that the real problem with your script is that you’ve got it backwards: your view is gynocentric and places women and their needs and desires at the top, and makes men’s needs and desires totally play second fiddle to that, like WE are the sub-humans and what WE feel and think and experience matters less than what goes on with women.

      Being a cock-tease IS abusive. And if you want to be treated like an equal human being (as opposed to a specially-privileged person who’s a little more equal than us) then you should be ready to be called out on your bullshit and on your own abusive behavior, or the abusive behaviors of others who happen to be female.

      • XLeilaX

        Are we obligated to “give it up”?
        99% of girls don’t go into this with a gameplan. They’re having fun with a guy, and they’re turned on and everything, but they have a certain boundary they don’t want to cross. That doesn’t mean everything they did with him up to that point was for laughs.
        Maybe they thought they were ready to go all the way, but then changed their minds and realised they weren’t comfortable with it.

        I never insinuated that men’s desires aren’t important, the whole “evil temptress” thing was meant to be tongue in cheek, in reference to what Paul said about the opportunistic nature of shitty human beings.

        I think it’s marginally better to not get to do what you want to do then to do somethin you don’t want to do, against your conscience.
        There’s no point having sex with someone when you’re not totally into it, it’ll ruin the experience for both people.

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          I think what you’re obligated to do is recognize when you’re acting like an asshole and cut it the fuck out, not whine when someone calls you out for acting like an asshole.

          It’s called being adult and being expected to act like a decent human being.

          • XLeilaX

            You can call me whatever you want, I was just explaining my point.
            Come up with a real argument in response instead of labelling it “whining”

        • Kimski

          • XLeilaX

            Yeah, well, if you’re half naked, someone is going to compliment your exposed appendages, you can’t be surprised that someone thinks the attention is warranted.
            I mean, if I was dressed like a hooker, and someone mistook me for one, I wouldn’t be outraged or anything, as long as the guy respectfully moved on after the incident.

      • XLeilaX

        Bear in mind that men can be cock-teases too.
        I don’t know if there’s a word for it…cunt-tease?
        Women get lead on and denied sex too, so don’t put the pussy on a pedastal, because it doesn’t always get what it wants.
        This article is vilifying women with perfectly good intentions.
        It’s practically sayin that if we’re not up for sex, we shouldn’t have sexually related interactions with anyone in case the guy happens to overreact to the situation and consider rape.

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          I don’t think it’s vilifying women with perfectly good intentions at all, it’s pointing out selfish and thoughtless behavior. The world is full of articles about what jerks men can be and all they supposedly do wrong, someone calls out women for once and your knickers are in a twist? Whatevs, dude.

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          By the way, have you ever looked at the rate at which women sexually force themselves on men? The pretense that rape is overwhelmingly a male-on-female problem is widely held and demonstrably wrong.

          Let us know if you’re ever curious about that. We live in a society that constantly demonizes male sexuality and pedastalizes female sexuality, and ironically enough you seem to me to be doing that very thing here in your comments, although that is probably not your intent.

  • notsince67

    Paul,

    Guess you were that guy who though because he bought a girl a couple vodka-somethings you we owed a busted nut eh?

    Maybe try losing a pound or fifty. And stop being a SUCKER ya dumbass. Girls buy ME drinks ;)

  • notsince67

    Paul.

    I thought you weren’t a loser till I saw this. If you ever come to my town to do a speech or something like that (I doubt it, you’re probably too scared to get away from your computer) I’m gonna bitch slap you. If no one is around, I’m gonna stick my D in your ass and show you what a mangina is.

    Go cry about that.

  • Andrew Ulrich

    Eh, I’m actually starting to hate this article.

    While I can’t wholly agree or disagree with everything said here, every time I start talking about men’s issues with a feminist and they actually start to change their minds, this article inevitably comes up.

    I get it’s purpose, I really do, and I’m all for freedom of speech, but this is closing off minds that we might have changed. It’s shock value is such that it’s counter productive.

    • Reason

      I’d put it this way: If Fred came up to Dave and started shouting obscenities at Dave’s face with the sheer intent of getting him angry, then Dave punched Fred, would Fred have NO responsibility whatsoever for the outcome? Of course he would. Exploitative “teasing” IS sexual abuse, since one person is deliberately creating sexual arousal under false pretenses. It also qualifies as fraud at times, since a false promise is being made or implied in order to gain something (eg: would the man have bought/continued to buy the drinks if the girl did not imply sex would be the reward?).

      I don’t think the article excuses rape. I sincerely hope not. I get from it that exploitative teasing sets a stage for a rape that would not have taken place otherwise. Culturally, manipulative teasing is accepted and made fun of in movies, commercials – everywhere. It is clearly wrong and needs to be stopped just as much as any other form of sexual abuse.

      By the way, a vast majority of fights in bars between men start with this very process.

  • Reason

    I dunno…why not take HER word for it instead of trying to dictate her values? You know, like the right to self-determination you want for you, but not for her? Your over-privileged Western feminist roots are showing.

    http://www.islamicinsights.com/religion/religion/why-wear-the-hijab.html

  • Reason

    So aside from your anti-Muslim sentiments, you feel that Muslims are faithless, oppressed people? Or that Muslims approve of rape? I guess either way, your opinion is as good as any privilege guess. I mean, what exactly IS your point, after you’ve peeled away the careful wording?