Abortion And Men's Rights

Some words on Abortion and the MHRM

Someone once said, “Never discuss politics or religion.” Obviously they never had a discussion about abortion, which manages to raise hostilities at the mere mention of the word. And a whole lot more.

We got an example of this recently on the pages of this website when I submitted, despite being personally opposed to the practice, that the editorial position here would be that an anti-abortion agenda would not be acceptable for article submissions, and would not be included in the revised mission statement to come in the future.

I got called a baby killer (figuratively). And that by someone I’d grown quite fond of over a period of years.

Whatever abortion is, it is not something people take lightly.

That intensity is magnified exponentially when you consider that this website is a growing part of a growing movement involving many men and women, but one where the responsibility and authority for editorial decisions rests solely with one person. I suppose I am a smart enough fella. Not smart enough to please everyone all the time, but smart enough not to try.

It’s a potential tinder box on minor issues, much less one as incendiary as abortion. So after having taken some time to digest the reactions and consider the future of this site, I want to take the opportunity to clarify policy and rationale. I do this knowing that fires are still smoldering and subject to instant flare up.

The question that I took into consideration for this as foundational was, “Does anti-abortion activism, as opposed to sympathies with those efforts, enhance or diminish efforts to advocate for men and boys?”

My personal opinion leans heavily on the side of diminishment. First there is the problem of political affiliation.  As already stated in the rough draft of the policy I wrote, the AVfM position on mainstream politics is clear. They won’t be part of the equation here except to point out that all popular political groups are misandric and antithetical to the cause.

Abortion is highly polemicist, with the mainstay of its opponents squarely on the neoconservative religious right.

Socons, as we call them.  It’s a group with more nuts than a pecan orchard, and most of them would love nothing more than to have all men chained into a state sanctioned marriage (between one man and one woman, of course), which is to say they would ultimately make slaves of all of us.

Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just another enemy.

My personal opinion is that the MRM should not officially embrace causes that will attract mainstream political ideologues.  My personal decision is that AVfM won’t, for sure.  It will be more in keeping with policy here to run them off with a stick. I think I take that position for sound reasons.  During my time as Editor-in-Chief for Men’s News Daily, I was accused, regularly, of being a right wing demagogue. To be fair, I was accused of being a leftist sycophant from the other side as well.

It’s what happens when you refuse to join the circus or follow the thinking of people who educate themselves on sound bites from cable news channels. But, I digress.

The point here is that making abortion a part of the AVfM mission is a prescription for infestation by those who also undermine men and boys.  It’s like turning over a jar of honey on a picnic and then taking a nap. That is not going to happen here.

Then there is the matter of LC4M. As long as women have unencumbered power and authority over abortion it also gives them equally hegemonic dominion over men for the bulk of their adult lives.  In fact, child support is the primary instrument by which state functionaries assume and maintain iron fisted control over the lives of men in western culture.  We have an entire father’s rights movement necessitated by the fact that millions of men have had their lives eviscerated, their freedom forfeit, their assets garnisheed, even where paternity fraud has been proven and acknowledged by the courts.

If a man is even in the general vicinity of a pregnant woman, his life can and will be completely undone. The only possible solution to this, however unlikely, is the cause of reproductive rights for men.  And however doomed that cause may be, it at least can be a vehicle to start educating men to regard their sperm as property every bit as sacred as their blood. And it is a path that Karl Rove and his chivalrous ilk are not going to walk on right into our public identity.

I want to point out, though it hardly seems necessary, that the editorial policy of this site doesn’t stop anyone from throwing abortion directly into the faces of feminists wherever possible.  I know it won’t stop me. Feminist hypocrisy with abortion is one of many intellectual and moral weaknesses they are inextricably bound to.  They can be savaged with the issue at any time they bring it up, and even when they don’t.

But the point here is smart activism, not the most strident or flag waving; certainly not the most pigeon holing. Someone on this site, I believe it was the illustrious Dr. Snark, recently commented that we needed to be philosophical chameleons. I agree with that assessment entirely.

Abortion is a universally polarizing and defining issue, one that can be used to dismiss, anyone, at any time, as a religious zealot bent on the control of women.  That comes the territory when your main cause happens to be anti abortion, but it is not like the MRM needs any more of that.

So it will not be a defining cause of the MHRM in my opinion, or of AVFM, in fact.  In that light, I see no value in chaining myself, or this site, to anti abortion activism, and a good many reasons not to. I know, for those who feel deeply about this issue, this will not suffice as an explanation.  Nor, for some, would any explanation do that did not result in a mandate for me to be in the street, waving a “BABY KILLER!” sign and frothing at the mouth.

So if there are to be some fireworks on this, let it be now. I will do my best to keep my mouth shut and enjoy the show.  And any readers that cannot abide by this, I understand.  I wish you well, and I appreciate your efforts on behalf of men and boys. I just can’t, won’t actually,  join you on this one.

About Paul Elam

Paul Elam is the founder and publisher of A Voice for Men, the founder of A Voice for Men Radio, the AVfM YouTube Channel, and appears weekly on AVFM Intelligence Report, Going Mental with Dr. Tara Palmatier and weekly on MANstream Media with Warren Farrell and Tom Golden.

Main Website
View All Posts
  • AVFM seeks app writer volunteer

    Are you an MHRA? Can you write apps for iPhone and Android? Are you willing to do that for AVFM on a special project? Please contact us.

    A Voice for Men seeks a volunteer with solid app writing experience to help us develop an app that will be linked to the AVFM brand. If you have the qualifications and are serious about following through, we would love to hear from you. Your efforts could be of great assistance to this website and to our cause. Please contact Paul Elam at paul@avoiceformen.com for more details...

  • Wikimasters, Editors, Translators, and Writers Wanted *Apply Now*

    Fight Wikipedia censorship! A Voice for Men and WikiMANNia are working to increase knowledge of men's issues through two wikis: the AVfM Reference Wiki for scholarly references, and WikiMANNia for general-interest men's issues. Volunteers needed for writing, proofreading, and organizing. Some knowledge of the German language will be helpful but *not* required.

    Please write to editorial_team@wikimannia.org...

  • Kratch

    tasha. the male contraception wouldn’t be for the woman’s confidance, she has her own options for contraception, and if she doesn’t want to get pregnant, she should use them herself. The male “pill” (or shot) would be for the man’s own assurance. It would allow him to feel confidant that he’s not going to get trapped. You make it sound like the male pill would allow women to have absolutely no accountability when it came to sex, rather then simply giving men a way to feel secure about themselves and not have to trust in the woman.

    As to proactive prevention. I agree, it is the best option, but that applies to both sex’s (I hate the idea of abortion as a form of birth control and would limit it to a 1 time limit for non-medical purposes if I had a say). Unfortunately, sometimes “oopsies” happen, condoms aren’t 100%, no matter how much people would like it to be. Additionally, sometimes, sabotage happens too. Perhaps not a lot, but certainly enough (and if men become more proactive IE, use a condom all the time so “trust me, I’m on the pill” wouldn’t work, I suspect it would increase). Men need a reactive solution akin to what woman have available, whether it be abortion or adoption or whatever. Proactive alone is not enough, unless that is all anyone (man or woman) gets.

  • keith

    As a father I would be sending my 14 year old son to get his injection and I would be explaining to him the implications of child support, marriage, divorce, and how that injection provides his freedom and choice over his own life.

  • keith

    More than anything else ownership of men’s sexuality needs to be in the hands of men not woman. The idea of proactive behavior typically perpetuates the myth that pregnancy can be a source of blame for men. I find it to be a double standard to expect such a thing from men while women continue to exercise control over reproductive rights.

  • keith

    In fact with male contraception, parenting, custody and child rearing plans can be carried out in a lawyers office long before any children are born.

    I think we would see a very significant decline in the birth rate in the first five years. I think men have learned a great deal from the womens movement in the last twenty years and are ready to apply their hard learned lessons.

  • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com Denis

    Men and women should be in complete control of their own reproduction. Boys need to be taught to distrust girls, just like girls don’t trust boys.

    There is a new pill in the works, it does not alter hormones.

    http://www.israel21c.org/201006238085/health/a-birth-control-pill-for-men

    Vasectomies are simple, cheap and reversible. You can even store sperm cryogenically.

    Men in complete control of their own reproduction will be a significant event in the MRM.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    I am going to make a prediction here. When an easy, inexpensive form of male contraception (like a pill) becomes available, not that many men will take it.

  • A Steve (one of many)

    @Tasha you are absolutely right, but I don’t and wouldn’t ever say that the injection is an alternative to condoms they should always be used because lets face it, you don’t know where the other person has been and the point of a condom is to my mind more about preventing the spread of STD’s then pure birthcontrol, Ideally it would work out that both parties are using contraception inconjunction with condoms so as to prevent unwanted pregnancy and to prevent the transmission of disease

    @Paul I want to hope you’re wrong on this one. I want to hope that with proper education that we can teach those most vulnerable to being enslaved by CSA that being in control of their own fertility is at this point unless, LC4M comes along, their only salvation from what is nothing more then slavery imposed by the state, although I have my skepticism as to whether or not it’ll happen I think especially in this country there are too many religious conservatives that will no doubt raise a terrible shitstorm about the introduction of that into sex education as they will demand abstinence only. sorry bit of a mix and rambling thoughts, and I’m more in favor of an injection then a pill, cuz in my personal case I can’t remember to take a multivitamin, and barely remember to take antibiotics when I need em, but if I can schedule something and make a reminder or get a prior day confirmation I’ll be there with bells on. well maybe not I’m sadly habitually late too but you know what I mean. K enough rambling

  • Falsely Accused Soldier

    I won’t take a pill because as an athlete(judo) I don’t want to change my body chemistry.

    However I do use Trojan Condoms with Spermicidal Lubricant religously.

    The reason I don’t want to change my body chemistry is basically because of my size(250 pounds) and years of weight lifting. I am a natural weight lifter supplementing protein shakes(and other products) for milk and good nutrition.

    I would really need to see how such a shot affects testerone/estrogen levels in the body.

    However I would suggest to any man I know to use such a shot/pill if they weren’t in a situation like mine.

  • Falsely Accused Soldier

    As to Paul’s comment there is a good chance many men wouldn’t. Just like many women don’t use the pill.

    However another issue I see cropping up is state sponsored organizations that provide women free or next to nothing cost birth control. But not men who are in the same age bracket/economic situation.

    However I will say this in regards to contraceptives. The U.S. army provides free condoms to all male soldiers. Going so far as to put them in a cookie jar at troop medical clinics.

  • A Steve (one of many)

    @FAS

    your personal reasons are certainly understandable, I’m sure there are going to be side-effects with any hormone based contraceptive treatment, I guess the point I want to keep hammering is to have the best contraceptive options available to us and to educate all men but I think in this instance especially young men about the importance of controling your fertility cuz lets face it, our options are condoms, vasectomy and leaving it up to women and really hows that working out for us?

  • TicToc

    @ Men needing wifey’s permission for vasectomy:

    This was discussed at another group. The guy who posted it insisted it was a law even as others called BS . After many requests for proof, he could never provide anything that indicated it was law or ever had been law. The best he could do was provide a link to one clinic in the midwest that “strongly suggested” that wife accompany husband to pre-surgery consoltation. I think it is just a rumor that keeps circulating.

    @ LC4M

    What happens if a few years after a guy signs away his paternity rights he starts seeing the kid, maybe going as far as moving back in with the mother?

    My buddy has a somewhat similar situation. His girlfriend in the Phillipines got pregnant and he didn’t want anything to do with it so he took off. I went to his place yesterday and he has all these pictures posted of his five year old daughter and is planning to go back and visit her. I know it’s not quite the same as the question I am asking but you know what I mean.

    • Tasha

      Well, IDK. Good point. I would imagine that like any contract, it could be revised, or legally made moot. I would think it would be like renegotiating a custody agreement wouldn’t it?

    • Kratch

      This is why I see men’s reproductive rights more akin to adoption then abortion. A parent who gives their child up for adoption (sometimes) can still re-establish a relationship, if the new parent’s allow, but they have no rights to that child.

  • Tasha

    @Keith
    “I don’t think the communication you engage with younger men is the same as between men. Men of all ages I think are much less forthcoming with women and particularly female counselors. IMO”

    Oh of course it is. But we are talking about boys between 12-19 who were in this group of mine for other reasons beyond sexuality…their interpersonal and social maturity was not age appropriate, so I was just as likely to get the truth, as they saw it, from them than any censored speech because I was a woman. But yes, I agree, we all talk differently among same sex peers.

    @Kratch–

    “the male contraception wouldn’t be for the woman’s confidance, she has her own options for contraception, and if she doesn’t want to get pregnant, she should use them herself. The male “pill” (or shot) would be for the man’s own assurance. It would allow him to feel confidant that he’s not going to get trapped.”
    ******Totally agree….I thought that was the point I was making. How nice it would finally be for men not to be, at least partially, at the mercy of their female partners b.c. choices, to have something other than condoms

    “You make it sound like the male pill would allow women to have absolutely no accountability when it came to sex, rather then simply giving men a way to feel secure about themselves and not have to trust in the woman.”

    ********Hmm…not what I meant to communicate at all. What I was saying is that this could be very freeing for men, but will probably suffer a backlash from women who might be “how can i trust you are really taking it?” without seeing the hypocrisy when you ask them to prove they are using something.

    @Keith again :)

    “More than anything else ownership of men’s sexuality needs to be in the hands of men not woman. ”

    Perhaps one of the more provocative statements on this entire thread.

    So, do it. Own it. Take it, it’s yours. Don’t get bogged down in the semntics of an idea, dont let some volitile and ultimately non-productive conversation about abortion divert you from THIS part. Appeal to people like Paul and Harry and yourselves to make THIS the priority discussion…

  • ResoluteMan

    No no no

    Why are people backing away from the idea that men should have the SAME right to opt out of parenthood as women?

    To my mind the whole point of giving men this right serves three functions

    1) To give men a get out of parenting option that matches the adoption and ABANDONEMENT (via Safe Haven) options available to women, that give women the right walk away, with no repercussions. (notice I left out Abortion – nothing to do with me)

    2) To prevent unscrupulous women from imposing fatherhood on unwilling men as means to extort a lifetimes sum of money from them.

    3) To properly site the responsibility for the poor outcomes in the lives of children raised by single mothers at babymama’s door, and put an end to the culture of “deadbeat” dad blaming.

    Harrassing men to use contraception is what we do now, but oddly enough, never do to women. Odd because women are the ones who actually get pregnant. A male pill would only give the “keep it your pants” NAZIS even more ammunition to blame men.

    Indeed, eugenics has come up a lot this discussion and I can foressee a male contraceptive implant being shot into less docile boys who have been diagnosed as behaviorally disordered, in a drive to rid society of what they’ll call the anti-social male gene or something like that. Well why not? they’re already forcibly drugging boys.

    There are only two ways this thing can be resolved, either abolish all reproductive options available to women or give men the SAME options.

    • Eincrou

      ResoluteMan: “A male pill would only give the “keep it your pants” NAZIS even more ammunition to blame men.”

      A strong point. I’m also skeptical about a male pill/shot having any kind of effect on the issues we talk about. So far all I’ve seen are assertions that I cannot find a basis for through my own analysis.

      There are odd cases where this pill would be of benefit distinctly greater than condoms. I have been made aware of these.

      To be of great benefit to men as a group — a tide turning change– the pill would have to be used by more men, more often than condoms. That, and/or it must be significantly more effective. Even if these were possible or true, I still question how useful this is.

      I see how it can help individual men in ways they might find important. None of these ways that I can think of aggregate into any sort of leverage over the laws that are the fundamental injustices. At best, it’s a way to avoid them, which is great, but… then what?

  • A Steve (one of many)

    @RM

    I am not backing away from LC4M I firmly believe in as I like to call it “The right to walk” however we don’t have that yet, and while I agree we should push for it, we should also make sure that men have the same preventative options women have or atleast as equivalent as biology will allow us, (I’m not sure there is an equivalent to an IUD or how one would even begin to work) cuz I still believe prevention is better then trying to deal with that kind of thing after the fact even with LC4M

  • Red0660

    Women have rights over their own bodies, the bodies of children both pre and post conception and the body of men and thus the fruits of our labor.

    Men’s bodies are the property of women and the government for the purpose of external utility to serve their ends. Men ourselves HAVE NO RIGHTS, NO REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, NO PARTENTAL RIGHTS, NO RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY, NO RIGHT TO THE FRUITS OF OUR LABOR. MEN ARE SHIT WE ARE NOTHING, WE HAVE NO RIGHTS!!!!!!!!

    • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

      Red, Just my opinion, but I think you have a great way of cutting right to the chase. :)

    • http://pinterest.com/zetapersei/male-privilege/ Perseus

      This goes on the temple.

  • John A

    @Eincrou
    I wasn’t talking about an individual Doctor’s choice, rather any government regulation. I don’t know what regulations are in place in different countries, but a man should be able to get a vasectomy regardless of his partner’s wishes. Men should get the same rights that women have.

    One of my employees got a vasectomy after having two children, his wife wanted more. The doctor gave him a hard time and said he only did it so he could sleep around. The doc still did the op though.

    • Eincrou

      Gotcha. Thanks for the response.

  • Tasha

    @ResoluteMan

    I never meant the pill or the shot at the exclusion of the financial abortion option. The conversation at that moment seemed to be focusing primarily on PROACTIVE measures/options for men. Of course in addition to the opt-out.

  • Rocco

    Here here, nicely said, I’m personally against abortion…at least for my mom…..lol….and think that feminism has blood on it’s hands in that they made abortion available wholesale, an altogether different issue than legalizing the occasional abortion….

    … but I think the mrm should stear clear of the “issue” of abortion. We need to deal with what happens when she doesn’t abort…paper abortion for men.

    And I have no truck in this fight, I had a vasectomy.

  • Fr Bob

    I guess I don’t have to explain my position on the issue of abortion, no am I going to get into that discussion.

    I just wish to reiterate what has been said before on this site, that the MRM is made up of some strange bedfellows. We have athiests, Christians, Budists, and other faiths, we have men and women; some who are right leaning, right of center, left of center, and left leaning; but we are here because we know there are issues that affect men that really need attention and a lot of activism. All of us doing our own activism in our several different ways.

    My only wish is that we can respect eachother enough to get to working on these issues and try to not resort to attacking eachother because of who we are other then MRA’s. It only serves to divide us and if we are divided our activism will not be as effective.

  • Lee

    Old as this post is, its an interesting topic. I have to disagree with the notion that its not relevant to men’s rights. This is because currently, men have no say on whether or not a child is aborted.

    I believe that consent of both parents should be needed for abortion. And I’m sure some typical pro-choice person would argue that it’s the woman’s body that will carry child for 9 months. That’s whiny and should not trump the fact that the child is of BOTH parents.

    Also, child support is definitely stupid. Can’t afford the child? Then stop hogging custody. Also, required paternity test isn’t a terrible idea. After, let the father know in case she never told him.

    • Lee

      Having thought about it some more, it may be best if abortion stays a female decision only, because if a woman decides she doesn’t want that child, its the fetus that will suffer from whatever insane methods she’ll take.

      • Bombay

        This is the same argument for safe haven laws. If she does not have an out with no consequences then who knows what she will do the the baby.

        Perhaps guys should start murdering their wifes instead of divorcing them until the laws change for no alimony, no child support, and no consequences/responsibility. But there is the rub – one gender is responsible.

        • Lee

          Or not marry. Actually I don’t even think I came up with that idea. :P

          But yeah, I was just thinking of the cases I have heard of in which women try to abort with drugs, alcohol etc. and the child has to deal with the consequences after it doesn’t work. And also, technically a fetus is part of a woman until birth, so I see where the argument of choice may come from. The best situation as I see it would be to give woman that choice and if the child is born, give men the choice of whether or not to claim that child.

          • http://pinterest.com/zetapersei/male-privilege/ Perseus

            Interesting and good points, Lee.

            “That’s whiny and should not trump the fact that the child is of BOTH parents.” Yes.

            Also, yes, if females can put a child up for adoption from their responsibilities, so must men be able to. What is not obvious about this (to the world)?

  • Lee

    @ Perseus

    Yes, I do still agree with that statement I made. On the other hand, I do see how a woman could view the fetus as part of her own body until birthed, and view abortion as her choice alone. Its hard to prove one way or the other. That and its pretty easy for a woman to abort in more natural ways, for example queen anne’s lace.

    • http://pinterest.com/zetapersei/male-privilege/ Perseus

      Lee, I don’t disagree with what you’ve reasoned through in this series of comments. It’s good.

  • MGTOW-man

    Dr. Elam, I certainly respect your position on this multifaceted toxic subject. I wouldn’t allow religious zealots who also throw men under the bus as quickly as feminists do, to hijack this history -making site either.

    But just so you know, I am trying to comment on a new article titled, “abortion, adoption, save haven laws—and lies” by Michale Sharon. I am anti-abortion but my comments are not even trying to convey such. My comments have not been posted there, curiously, so I will try it here to see if I can have my voice anyway.

    Thanks…. here goes.

    I am surprised with an article this important and having been on the site for as long as it has, that there hasn’t been more comments. Perhaps this tells me that fellow MHRA’s have given up on restoring our humanity by making society afford us some power over our own procreation.

    Shame on them if I am correct.

    We can never fully obtain and enjoy our male sense of humanity and equality without restoring our power relative to our procreation rights.

    It is a greater reduction in ones humanity, a stronger blow to ones dignity for the man to have no procreation power at all (ZERO) than it is for a poor, poor pitiful woman to have to share, say 51/49, her favor.

    There is no way a woman’s plans, or lack thereof, are more important than the life of a child that DOES belong to her AND him. This is the only procreation system we have, so it must be shared, that is, in a true arena of equality.

    If the situation were reversed in which men bore the children, women would be rabidly outraged at having their procreation rights manipulated by men with women being shut out altogether, especially in ways that really matter to them.

    Women would fight it, and they should win because it is heinous to treat the other parent like they are a piece of shit not worthy of procreation dignity. Likewise, we should win our fight to save a child from abortion if the man wants his offspring but she doesn’t; and be able to opt out of all burdens of parenting just like what the women can do (even by killing the child if she pleases.)

    We men were punished for not sharing more with women. Yet, when they stole their power with deceit, mockery, exaggerations, manipulation, and scheming selfishness, they have not demonstrated any sense of wanting to share with men—you know, set the example of what they think is right. Asking one of those women to share is like asking a little child to quit being selfish.

    Then they wonder why men and women like us disagree with them, why we can be THIS honest, how we can claim to love women but still be unyielding and frank about their behaviors, mentalities, opinions, and plans.

    I, as a MHRA, will never abandon the right of men to have a say in matters concerning their own children, including the unborn. I hope more men and women of my ilk, regain their bearings to fervently oppose women to have the only power concerning our children…and abortion is right in the middle of it.

    Owning the equipment should have no bearing on decision making when this is the only procreation system we have. I firmly believe that.

    Even if abortion is a no-can-win thing for men, and if winning might just foster more female entitlements, etc, we should never throw down the gauntlet. It is our duty to maintain our fight for this incredibly important humanity-robbing atrocity.

    I understand why this site can’t and won’t allow it to be taken over by zealots who oppose abortion solely because it is murder, but I have not taken this stance.

    I will never stop. NEVER!

    I may not win, but fighting this cruelty against men and children is my legacy.

    • Theaverageman

      You also have to understand that abortion is a subjective divisive issue within the MHRM.You take a position within the movement against abortion and you alienate a large number of MHRA’s who have the potential to FTSU.The progressive and conservative mhras in this movement need to come together and work towards agreeable goals .

  • suchmehclit

    I must say some of the comments on here made me cringe a little. I have never ever known a women to have an abortion for selfish reason, Abortions are a very difficult decision to make. They also make you ill.. but not as ill as a pregnancy itself.

    For those expecting women to be breeding machines because you “said so” please look into what a women has to go through while being pregnant, It can be frowned upon by there employers for taking maternity leave or worse if you in my boat you cannot claim maternity leave due to being on a zero hour contract which would mean I would be stuck on benefits and raising a child.

    Not a nice idea of raising a child.. for those who say adoption, I would never be able to give my baby away.. this would cause much more stress than keeping it so that is not an option at all… a mother child bond is beyond words. Expecting that of someone is like asking you to give away your boyfriend to a much needer single women. Would you do that?

    I think alot of people on these comments are focusing on things in a incorrect light. Women sabotaging contraception or even it going wrong, Wear a condom? and why not donate and invest into developing male contraception? There is the male pill, injection and several other methods coming to your doorstep which would make life much better for both parties.

    There would then be no fear of unwanted pregnancies or women who are not ready for babies having to go through the traumatic event of abortion or pregnancy. Which in turn can really badly effect men too, I have recently gone through one as such myself its been hard on me and my partner but we are both were not ready. Maybe in 5 years time? Otherwise there would just of been resentment and hatred for one another if I was forced to carry a child, ruin my career, become hormonal, suffer depression possibly even consider taking my own life? Would that really benefit a child? being brough up by a mother who resents them for ruining there lives?

    I came to this site as I wanted to find out the effects on my partner and what he’s is going through
    as I care and worry for him.

    Ok, rant about that over,

    In terms of this movement, which I do support male rights as much a women, Please don’t get confused about taking one right from another… Its not a contest Instead focus on things to make both parties lifes better.

    I believes that more male contraception is a must, I, Myself cannot take hormonal contraceptives and its not rare for women to be unable to or not want to because it can be a relationship breaker. Please read side effects of all birth control and maybe you will understand.

    There is an amazing male contraceptive injection which cloggs the tubes up so sperm is not realised it can last up to 10 years and there are NO Side effects. To decide to have a child, another injection to wash out the “Plug” and TAAA DAAAA! planned baby times for all.

    Then there will be no argument in abortion rights. It be planned or not planned. Done.

    • driversuz

      It doesn’t bother us if we make people cringe. We’re tired of a society that is afraid to make people cringe outside of a movie theater. We are much more concerned with content than with tone.

      Nobody here thinks that pregnancy or abortion are easy, though we are certainly aware that ideological feminists want women to think abortion is easy and pregnancy an abomination.

      And speaking of feminism:

      “Please don’t get confused about taking one right from another… Its not a contest Instead focus on things to make both parties lifes better.”

      It is feminists who have made human rights a contest in which there must be a winner and a loser. We are attempting to reverse that trend.

      Also, the male birth control you mentioned is called Vasalgel, and we encourage people to donate to its developers – since the Parsamus Foundation doesn’t receive funding from government health agencies. (But it sure would if the product was for women, wouldn’t it?)

      • suchmehclit

        I’m more than happy and proud to admit I am a Anarcha Feminist >>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcha-feminism

        In relation to abortion I asked for couples counciling after the abortion as I would of assumed that would be a thing I find its not which shocked me… So apparently men don’t need counciling on abortions, absolute horse shit. When I rang up about it they was quite excited I had asked about it as apparently there was not enough
        People wanting it… Sadly we live in a capitalist society so not enough demand means its not available.

        Im guessing this is down to many males are bought up to think that they cannot speak about there issues and have to lock it up and act tough in order to be a “MAN!”

        I have never met a feminist (Although I am selective with my friends to have a specific political opinion) That have ever tried to reduce male rights when we sit and have discussions we discuss both men and womens problems…

        the back lashes of both sides and what we think would be beneficial for both parties
        We don’t point fingers going your a cunt. Your a dick. I don’t know how many feminists you have spoken to? but I have never come across a sexist one yet.
        A fair few books written on masculinity expectations and how it harms

        males were written by…. Yes feminists… So please do not brush us all with the same bog brush have a look into the history of your male rights movements and who first pointed out issues of sexism towards men in society.

        When talking about patriarchy we call it just that we don’t go oh them masculinists are trying to take our rights away unless we find a blog which is just like….. wow these people are a bit clueless, selfish and unempathetic

        Something I learned long ago is to understand both sexes suffering who it effects more and how things can be put into motion to help solve difficult issues.
        As for male contraception quite a lot of stuff I read up on made me a little angry.

        A lot were not realised because they had side effects yet less than a womens hormonal contraceptive For me male contraception would be absolutely amazing for our relationship and I know I’m not alone in this

        A lot of women and men feel exactly the same for different reasons…
        It be good because the responsibility and victim blaming of pregnancy would be more shared out thus changing attitudes (Hopefully) about the entirety of the reproductive system and responsibilitys. I know there was one (I have been following male contraception updates for about 8 years now?) that did cause infertility so I understand ALOT of testing has to be carried out.. However the female contraption hardly has much testing at all for before realised to the public.

        I’ve personally suffered bone thinning, migraines, vitamin deficiency and blood clots.
        Which is only the really bad stuff without all the rest.
        Why Vasalgel is not getting funding is partly due to the lack of popularity and governments see it as Oh well theres all this stuff for women why do we need it?
        A good artical on this.

        http://women.mg.co.za/who-wants-a-male-pill/

        Makes you angry don’t it?

        • driversuz

          I have spoken to thousands of feminists, and I have read and heard the words of the feminists who dictate policy at all levels of government and who run the public education system. They have NO concerns for men’s issues, but they appreciate the support of all the feminists who sincerely believe that “Feminism is about equality.”

          “Patriarchy,” as defined by feminists, doesn’t exist and it never has.

          “A fair few books written on masculinity expectations and how it harms
          males were written by…. Yes feminists…”

          Of course, because only feminists are stupid enough to believe that masculinity is harmful to anyone.

          You probably think you are sharing some new insights with ignorant deluded fools, but we have heard it all before and we have refuted it. We don’t allow feminists to come here and shower us with feminist theory, not because we are censorious but because anyone can read that garbage anywhere, and we’re tired of it. This is one of the few place on the internet where readers are not expected to consume a steady diet of gynocentrism by seeing issues from the female and/or feminist perspective. Instead of reading this site with the mindset that “Oh I know why they’re wrong,” try reading it open to the possibility that we might be right.

          If you continue to spread feminist theory, or to “argue” from the assumption that any aspect of feminist theory has actually been proven, you will be banned. We simply don’t have time to refute it again and again.

          • suchmehclit

            ” “Patriarchy,” as defined by feminists, doesn’t exist and it never has.”
            Really?
            “Patriarchy is a social system in which: males hold primary power; males predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property; and, in the domain of the family, fathers or father-figures hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male domination and entails female subordination. Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage. In the familial sense, the female equivalent is matriarchy.”

            So never in the history of the world has this happened. Ok… then I am no longer wanting to even continue when basic denial of an issue which is present (Not just in one country)

            Its making me feel like speaking to a 9/11 conspiracy theorist.

          • driversuz

            You missed the part of feminists’ “Patriarchy” in which men oppress women for the benefit of men. The feminists “Patriarchy” misses the part about male authority being titular and female authority being very very real. It also misses the part about male “authority” being unconditionally tied with the obligation to provide for and protect females at any cost. REAL patriarchy is nothing more than a system in which names and property are passed down through males.

            Nobody here objects to the idea that feminists might care about men’s issues. Our problem is with the feminist solutions – they all involve “altering,” “fixing” and “redefining” masculinity as feminists see fit. If you really care about men, you would not view and define them primarily from a feminist perspective, any more than you would view and define women primarily through a masculinist perspective.

            Not to mention that every political feminist policy, law and initiative, FORCES men into the provider/protector aspect of the traditional patriarchal role, whether they want that role or not.

          • suchmehclit

            I have noticed this, Mainstream feminists that tend to be in the government tend to be right wing conservatives. Which I find are making politics worse and not better. I do not regard them as feminists, As my view of feminism is equality for both sexes.

            “What dose it mean to really be a feminist,
            it means that you pay attention to all different kinds of oppression and stand for all those people who do not have a voice, If it be trans or people with colour, sexuality everything. Then the next talent is how do you do that on a personal level” – Punk Rock Singer

            I don’t even see people who claim to be feminist as feminists unless they abide by this. However I cannot speak for oppressions towards men, black, trans, disabilities or otherwise just as white men can’t speak for oppressions for women, black, trans, disabilities or otherwise.

            There oppression can’t be 100% understood unless you’re the person suffering it.

          • driversuz

            “I do not regard them as feminists, As my view of feminism is equality for both sexes.”
            Since they are the ones who make policy, from small school districts to the UN, what good is your “view of feminism.” You call yourself a feminist and they get to point to you and say, “See? She supports our goals.” If you’re not a racist, would you call yourself a klansmen? If you believe in equal rights and equal responsibilities for both sexes, you don’t believe in anything feminism has done in at least 40 years, so why call yourself a feminist? Everything feminist have actually DONE (and not merely yapped about for good quotable quotes) for decades, has removed responsibilities from women and placed greater responsibilities on men. They have the unmitigated gall to call this “equality,” when it is the exact opposite of equality.

          • suchmehclit

            Hardly they fought along side the gay rights movement, fought along side civil rights movement. And hey ho just recently in the UK (unsure where your from) Gay marriages have been allowed.

          • driversuz

            …and?
            No more dodging and feinting, changing the subject when you have no answer. Go away troll, or you will be banned in short order.

          • suchmehclit

            I’m not trolling. Gay rights, Effects men too, Civil rights, Effects men too…

            http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/2014/09/emma-watson-un-speech-feminism

            I would like you to understand that Feminists have helped other than just women… and there is plenty of history and examples of this… Whats your so called movement done/doing for this? You happily discuss one gender issue and dismiss the rest which… Guess what your accusing that of me. So yes I do not feel like its changing the subject.

            I am going to dismiss this movement from the experience and try to find one that is a little more open minded which don’t shout troll at someone just because they disagree with them. Id appreciate it if you did ban me as then I would not have to read any comments from this again. Thankyou.

          • CrazyCanuck

            As a MGTOW I know Patriarchy exists. However it’s a very small minority of men to take over the world financially. These men will get feminists, when these women realize what they have done there is no heading back.

        • http://rubberpunch.dk/punchone/ RubberPunch

          Generally you should be proud of what you do, not what you are.

          • suchmehclit

            I am proud of what I do, I am proud of who I am and I am happy to feel that describing myself as a Anarcha Feminist is not a bad thing ether.

    • Dennis M

      Expecting women to be breeding machines? You mean expecting them not to kill our unborn child? You just said how traumatic abortion is: imagine when it happens against your wishes and with your protests.

      You only care about “hard” when it applies to your gender. Paying child support for 18 years is hard. Seeing a child aborted against your wishes is hard. But none of that hardship matters to you.

      • suchmehclit

        Sooo are you saying you would happily make your partner carry a child she dose not want, risk her health, have a birth which can effect depression, anxiety, stitches, eat up the majority of the time she has for the rest of her life because you said so?

        Do you even understand how much stress your body goes through for a pregnancy… Its not exactly like having your Appendicitis out you know. I don’t think any women aborts a child just because she’s suffering morning sickness. Having a baby is terrifying. Expecting to take the right away from someone who dose not want to go through a more so traumatic experience than abortion is sick.

        Pro choices don’t try to force other peoples to there opinions or get involved in other peoples choices… Pro lifers do.. Why not stop worrying about everyone else take a step back and think of everything thats involved rather than just spouting hate and pointing fingers and being hostile.

        All you have to do is look in countries that abortions is illegal and see how much that hurts women. Some women do not even know which partner it could be, Some don’t even tell there partners because they feel its there own burden. Something is wrong with this society and it needs to change.

        • driversuz

          “Sooo are you saying you would happily make your partner carry a child she dose not want, risk her health, have a birth which can effect depression, anxiety, stitches, eat up the majority of the time she has for the rest of her life because you said so?”
          No, he is not. Strawman. You are attempting to divert the conversation to focus on how hard everything is for women. Not going to fly here.

          • CrazyCanuck

            People who don’t want children should not have sex. I don’t want kids and guess what I don’t have sex. We are not animals we are humans. People should really act like it.

        • Dennis M

          So which is it? Do women get abortion to avoid pregnancy, or to avoid motherhood? You’re contradicting yourself.

          If its to avoid motherhood then you get no fucking sympathy from me because a dad who shuns all responsibility for having sex and walks out on his kid is called a dead beat dad.

          If it’s to avoid pregnancy you get no fucking sympathy for me because when John Andrew Weldon killed his unborn child to avoid 18 years of child support it was called “an unspeakable crime.” We all know child support > pregnancy because of the price a surrogate mother demands is 3X to 5X what the average man pays in child support.

          You can say what he did was horrible because it was “her body” but we all know that’s bullshit. Take the unborn child out of the equation and what he did was no worse than slipping her laxatives.

          Stop this disingenuous, manipulative bullshit about pregnancy. My grandmother popped out 15 babies and is still alive at 91.

          And no, you don’t need to stick around after the babies born. Although in a fair society, you would be called a “deadbeat mom” if you didn’t.

          • suchmehclit

            As a primary source and not hear say I can assure you my pregnancy was exhausting, Even before 9 weeks. It took a massive strain on my body. My mental health and relationship.

            I am now dealing with the abortion, My reasons is me and my partner are just not ready. But will be one day and when that day comes I am sure it will be less stressful then one where we are not. Be a more happy exciting and positive time. However this pregnancy was not any of the positives.

            I am often worried about how he is dealing, He don’t seem to talk about his feelings to me about this subject apart from he said he was angry at himself for having to put us through that.

            Some people I know enjoy being pregnant some don’t everyones different. Just like some men want to be dads, some don’t, some are not ready.

            I think child support dose need change, I think custardy on a child should be 50/50 and then be up to the child when its within age of making its own mind up.

            As someone who has come from a family where there parents fought and stayed together for mine and my sisters sake, broke up when I was 14, I can tell you the wars between parents is not good on the kids, Event at 14.. There sometimes is hostile actions even at Christmas now.

            Now you see I was bought up in a unusual way compared to a lot of my friends. My dad bought me up more than my mother, As my mum worked days and my dad nights. So it was my dad who would pick me up from school, it was my dad who helped me with nightmares, it was my dad who took me to the hospital or doctors.

            Where as my mother badly suffered post natal depression and was often snappy and violent towards me and my older sister sometimes even my farther. If I was a kid and my parents split up who would I want to goto, My dad of course.. Who am I closer to now, My farther. I have a beautiful relationship with my farther and I think that is important in every childs life.

            Sadly I have found that pregnancy and mental health is linked and runs through my family in ways I did not even know was possible. It makes us abusive, isolated towards ourselves and paranoid.. Its rang true to all the women on my mums side who have had kids where as the women who have not are decent human beings with great understanding, happiness and social lives.

            So I would like to ask is it wise for me to reproduce knowing these risks…. In short not everything is black and white. If I don’t want to keep a child or want to have one its for a good reason and people should respect that.

          • driversuz

            “If I don’t want to keep a child or want to have one its for a good reason and people should respect that.”
            Good thing you have so many legal and safe choices for maintaining control over your reproduction – legal and safe choices provided by people who “respect that.”

          • CrazyCanuck

            So you respect murders?