Arrival

MGHOW: My journey

My road to being a MGHOW was forged after witnessing my parents’ marriage break down, my mother’s and step father’s marriage break down, and the countless other marriage breakdowns that dominated not only my family, but nearly all the families I knew by the time I was a teenager. I followed suit, with one marriage, and one long term de facto breakdown, which between them left me, at 38 years old, financially not much better off than I had been at 20. This was after I had made considerable investment in two houses, and nearly paid one off completely .

I didn’t know what a MGHOW was, but I knew that legally recognized relationships of any type, with a woman, often resulted in financial ruin for men and that the law supported and encouraged women to use it as the tool for this destruction. All my life I had heard how it was a man’s world and men were privileged, but my view of the world told me that it was entirely up to the woman to decide if you should continue to be allowed to have ownership of your home, be a father to your children, or even retain ownership of your income.

Once single, I stuck a sign inside the entrance to my unit which was my declaration of independence. It had three headings in large letters, with a small explanation of each underneath. The three headings were:: NO MARRIAGE, NO DEFACTO, NO KIDS.   My open stance on this did not seem to limit my sex life at all. In fact while it drove women who wanted any of these things away, it attracted those who were like minded. I accumulated many ‘friends with benefits’ who all knew about each other. I had even explored the swinger’s scene on some occasions, though it was not a predominant part of my life.

Most of the women in my life were affectionate, extremely sexual, and most of all, very independent.   Some of these women would casually refer to themselves as feminists. Some had disowned the term altogether. All of them would become aware of my anti-feminist opinions over time and, apart from some disagreements, it didn’t seem to affect anything much between us. My conclusion, in hindsight, is that no matter what these women considered themselves, they were not feminists.

At one point, in the early days of my MGHOW lifestyle, I was seeing a woman who I allowed to hassle me into agreeing to monogamy.  Almost immediately the relationship changed and I began to feel uncomfortable with the arrangement. This was because after agreeing that she would be my sole source of sex, it would also become apparent that she would also be my sole source of female companionship and affection of any kind. Not only that, I had to alter my life so that I could be seen to be abiding by this.

The complaints came soon after. ‘You spend too much time with other people’, ‘you went out on such and such a night and didn’t tell me in advance’. That’s code for ‘you didn’t ask my permission’. Before I knew it, I was heading down that same old road of answering to someone for every move, altering my comings and goings, always with thoughts of not triggering suspicions or complaints.

Disagreements would see sex withheld, and I felt pressure to agree to anything to avoid that happening. It became obvious to me after analyzing all of my past monogamous relationships, that this was the deal. This was monogamy. This is what it meant to a woman…..control.

I came to the conclusion that it was not enough to rule out marriage, de facto, and children. Indeed, if I had no intention of having more children, then monogamy was redundant. It served no purpose at all except to pander to women’s (and men’s) irrational and purely emotional need to secure ownership and control of their partner’s body. This indeed makes sense if you are planning marriage, children, and raising a family together, at least until you have all the children you want.  It made sense in times gone by, when the absence of birth control and hygiene products, disease  prevention, abortion etc would leave a trail of destruction in the lives of those neither practicing monogamy nor celibacy.

I, however, live in an age where marriage has become a one way commitment, where children mostly become a man’s child support payments, and where his house becomes his wife’s house.

I was leaving work one day and about to head over to Debbie’s. I’d been in a monogamous relationship with her for several weeks and already I was starting to feel the claustrophobic feeling that reminded me of my previous marriages. I didn’t feel like going there – I was only going because she was a pest.

She had been harping on about how I wasn’t spending enough time with her and had started repeatedly bringing up the subject of us living together. I started driving over to her house, and pulled over to the side of the road. I text’d the message on my phone, “going home, feeling very tired.” Then I turned my phone off, and drove home.

The land line was ringing as I walked through the door. The conversation went something like,

“Peter, we need to talk.”

“No we don’t, what we need to do is stop seeing each other.”

“aarrrh…umm, FINE, if that is what you want.”

“That is what I want.”  The sound of the phone slamming down followed.

I breathed a sigh of relief, and suddenly I didn’t feel tired anymore. I felt like painting blue lines on my face and jumping on a horse and riding with my sword thrust into the air, and yelling “FREEDOM!”

I had accumulated many friends with benefits prior to this relationship I had managed to remain in contact and friendly with some. I rang my closest friend with benefits, Tam, and told her I was back.  After listening to my bitching about my hellish existence for the past several weeks, she said “That’s what you get when you get involved with nice girls.”  I said “Yes, it won’t happen again, only hardcore cock loving sluts like you for me, from now on, I promise.’

A celebration was called for, and this time it happened to be a gathering of friends and a night of debauchery followed.

It’s been that way pretty much ever since.

My declaration expanded to four items, which was no longer displayed on my wall, but I made no secret of where I stood on each of these:

1.  No marriage. Marriage has become nothing but the temporary “for as long as I feel like it” arrangement that nearly always results in divorce, and the stripping of assets and children, and parental rights from men, and often, the continued enslavement of men via alimony.  Furthermore, as a partnered man, you are probably even more at risk of false allegations than a swinging dick because false allegations are being enabled, and becoming standard tools for women to use in order to extract further benefits upon divorce, and separation and to further remove the man from her life, and the children’s lives. It is far too dangerous a deal for a man to consider, and even if you think not, it is going to get worse.The marriage deal you agree to today will be rewritten and amended behind your back via feminist lobbyists exerting their will over the legislative process while you wait for the inevitable divorce to come.

2.  No defacto. In many jurisdictions, de facto holds exactly the same weight as marriage, and in the jurisdictions where it does not, it soon will. If you agree that marriage is too dangerous, then you must rule out living together, too. Since you only undertake these arrangements with a view to “until death do us part,” what do you think the chances are of the rules not being amended during your life time? And if it’s not death do us part, but temporary that you are planning, then why do it?

What temporary relationship is worth the risk, and the cost of the ass reaming you will get via family law, if she chooses to strap that giant dildo on at the end? You have no say in whether she chooses to use the tools that have been made available to her. Her word is not worth the paper it’s not written on. Pre-nups may or may not hold legal weight in your jurisdiction at the time you enter into such agreements, but at the time of dissolution they are toilet paper, just waiting for the government and feminists to peel it off the roll, wipe and flush.

3.  No children.  Obviously if you aren’t going to marry a woman, or live together, then you would have to be crazy to have children with one. It can only result in you eventually being removed from their lives, and paying child support, regardless of any deals you have with her. Family courts need not honor either verbal or written agreements you have with her. Let breeders be responsible for populating the world, and let breeders pay the price for it.

4.  No monogamy. This one results in the most objections, even from MGTOW.  But think about it.  If you rule out the other three No’s, what reason is there to agree to monogamy, and what reason does a woman have to agree to monogamy with you?   Jealousy?  Insecurity?  A fear of competition?   A distaste for women who sleep around?  Why?  Have not women the same right to go their own way, also? Indeed, if as MGTOW, we are going to reject marriage, and other forms of committed relationships, then we are faced with either life-long celibacy, or acceptance of the non-monogamous woman. As long as you are trying to go your own way, but seek to have a pet woman, who is monogamous to you, you are seeking two mutually exclusive things and that very desire will see you surrendering control.

Is this monogamous relationship going to be for life? If not, then why bother? Who will break this relationship off, and what will be the fallout when that happens?

But aren’t women who are sexually active, and not monogamous, just sluts? And sluts are bad, horrible women, right?

First, what is a slut? Oh, those are those women who dress in provocative clothes and parade down the street shoving their pseudo sexuality in people’s faces in order to incite hatred against men. No, not really. Those are show ponies and posers who want to use their sexually provocative appearance and displays to gain attention for their cause and promote the hatred of men.  A truly sexually liberated woman uses her sexuality to pleasure herself, and her partners.

Wait, but sluts are those bitches that make false rape allegations after begging to be fucked senseless by groups of men, aren’t they? Well, I’ve known many women who aren’t averse to group sex, but none of them have caused me or any other man any grief. Obviously, being a sexually liberated woman does not go hand in hand with being any of these other negative things.

The women who do that are more often immature, dishonest women who have some expectation to gain something from a sexual encounter, and don’t get it.  Being a sexually liberated woman who spreads it around and enjoys her sex life with anybody she chooses to engage with does not mean she is a liar, a cheat, a bitch, or that she hates men. In fact, the vast majority of women I’ve known who are this kind of sexual free spirit, really like guys.

They are often called sluts and whores by many people who are aware of their private sex lives. Most take offense at the whore label.  Among friends, the term slut is often used, and is almost a term of endearment. They don’t sell sex, they give it away, and don’t want anything in return except the enjoyment. This makes them the opposite of whores. In fact, the average women has more in common with a whore than this type of sexual free spirit (slut).  That statement isn’t meant as an insult to average women, or whores.  It’s just an observation of the fact that the more requirements a woman places on a man to provide utility, or material goods, or services for her, in order for him to gain, or maintain access to sex with her, the more that relationship resembles prostitution.

A woman who has a high libido, an open mind, a love for men and sex, is not the enemy of men or of the MRM; not on that account alone, regardless of how many lovers she has, or what sex those lovers may be. In fact, for the MGHOW who does not want celibacy, and has rejected any form of state sanctioned legally binding relationship, the  non-monogamous, sexually active women is your only option outside of prostitutes.

To enjoy her company though, you will have to dispense with attitudes that are incompatible with your chosen lifestyle of a sexually active MGHOW.  To put it bluntly, as an MGHOW, you have no right to expect a woman to make a commitment to you, while you shun commitment.  If you are not a celibate MGHOW, but a sexually active one, you are in fact, a slut, if the same standards are applied to yourself.

The sexually liberated and liberal women, is the woman that prostitutes seek to imitate.  They are what the show ponies, the cock teasers, the users, the rinsers and most of the other nasties seek to appear to be, but are not.  Beware of imitations.

A woman who is in the habit of flaunting herself and behaving provocatively in public, is more often an imitation. She is sending out messages saying, I’m hot, I’m sexual, but usually not to obtain sex, but to obtain something else.  Attention, money, drinks, etc, but not sex. They want you to want them, but they don’t want you to fuck them, at least not unless you are living up to some other agenda they have.

A hidden price tag with an unstated amount.

The truly sexually liberated woman may on occasion dress up and behave provocatively, but when they do, they aren’t playing pretendies, and they seldom  take offense at being approached, even a clumsy pass by a guy they are not interested in will usually not see them behave rudely or maliciously.

As opposed to traditionalists, the MRM’s message is largely that men should be freed from the expectation of provision and protection of women; that it is no longer appropriate to hold men to traditional roles while women have been freed to pursue lives of their choosing.

Men are still being held to traditional standards though. Most women count on this. Shaming men on the basis of their sexuality, being gay, being celibate, being bi-sexual, being promiscuous, etc., is all part of the mechanism that keeps men protecting and providing. Indeed, the provision of sex, or the withdrawal of sex, is a powerful tool that is used to keep men pursuing relationships that, when looked at logically, differ little from prostitution; prostitution without a clear price tag. They will let you know what the cost is later..

With the ever increasing stance of feminism being anti sex, particularly anti sex between men and women, that all sex is rape, and other ridiculous lies that feminism is spreading and slowly having enshrined in law, feminists have become the new totalitarian prudes of the world as opposed to the sexual liberation movement that they promoted themselves to be in the sixties.

The MRM has the opportunity to replace them as the movement that promotes true sexual equality, responsibility, as well as the notion that your sexual activity is a personal issue, and should not be used as a yard stick to gauge your value as a human being, or even your morality. Those things should be judged by – honesty, integrity, compassion, work ethic – are not what you do in bed, or who you do it with.

♦♦♦

Enter Tam.  I’ve known Tam for eleven years and regard her as a very dear friend.

Tam looks and behaves pretty much like an ordinary middle aged woman.  Nobody would ever guess the evil that dwells within.

Tam has a full-time job, and often works overtime. She also generates some income from writing and has done copy for advertising, as well as writing erotica. She has two adult children who are both very fine examples of good upbringing.  They are educated, productive and fine upstanding citizens.

Tam is divorced from their father and maintains a friendly relationship with him.   In the divorce, she rejected the family court’s insistence that she take more assets and money than she was agreeing to, and told them if they confiscated it for her, she would just return it to him. There was no dispute over children, and no child support paid either way.   The kids pretty much just came and went at both houses as they chose. Although Tam could have received some child support being the lower earning partner, she did not apply for it.

She has her own place, paid off, and has renovated it herself, mostly with her own hands. She currently has a job that is partly physical, and partly outdoors. She is totally financially independent, and totally independent in all ways.  She donates to charity, and has spent many a night in the past out in the cold helping homeless people (men). She regularly visits her ailing mother and performs chores for her, including shopping, housework etc. She is very likable and respectable member of the community.  She neither smokes, or uses drugs, and is a very modest social drinker.

Tam is also a major slut, of the highest caliber. She has used several dating sites and meets up with guys now and then for sex.  On some Saturday nights you may find  her at home, reading, watching tv, going to a movie, or in a threesome with a couple of fuck buddies, or maybe a woman or a couple.  You may find her at a swingers’ party, or even a much more extreme gathering. Pretty much nothing is out of the question for Tam. All that, and she’ll even spin for dinner and drinks at times.

You may think that women like Tam are rare.  I would disagree. Nowhere near as rare as one might think anyway.  I have known, and still know, many of them. In fact, you might say my life over the past 12 years has looked like a river flowing full of women like Tam.   They are not hard to find, they are everywhere. But in order for them to reveal themselves to you, you must first be willing to accept them as they are.

My recommendation for MGTOW is to seek to acquaint yourself with such women, not just as a source of sex, but as a source of genuine friendship with women who do not require anything from you except the same.

As a popular movement, MGTOW has a long way to go. Many see the withdrawal of support of women, and the rejection of committed relationships as not only a method of protecting themselves from some of the worst excesses of feminist governance and legislation, but also as a political effort.   They see it as a way, perhaps, to force laws to be rewritten and for marriage to be made safe, and beneficial to men, instead of just to women. If enough men adopted MGTOW lifestyles, I’m sure there would be much pressure for law reform that would benefit men.

I, for one, do not want things to go back to the way they used to be, where the marriage, commitment monogamy model is the only acceptable road to take for men, or women. I want marriage to be fair for men and women who choose it, and divorce to be the same.  I want parental rights and property rights protected. I want the bias in favor of women in custody, child support, property etc, to be eliminated.  But I want marriage, de facto, monogamy, and all the other choices to be just that, choices.

And no matter which lifestyle one chooses, you are as safe in your rights as in any other choice. Only then, in absence of moral and legal directives and sanctions for refusal to comply, can men truly choose

I used to be a proponent of commitment and monogamy. So who made me change?   Feminists made me change. They made me who I am now, as surely as if they molded me and worked me with their own hands into my current form. So would I return to my old self if things were changed tomorrow?  Nope, that toothpaste is not going back in the tube for me.

I discovered far too many women who like me just the way I am for me to give the slightest fuck about the others. For the women out there who are horrified at the existence of growing numbers of men like me, I suggest you reconsider your support of feminism, and the untenable nature of marriage and committed relationships for men, as rendered by feminist governance and legislation. You may have nothing but men like me to choose from in the future unless you reverse these trends.

Men are starting to see what monogamy really is.  A temporary desire that women have,  which  draws from the  ancient past where women were dependent upon finding a man to protect and provide for them and their offspring for their survival.

That instinct is inherited and is part of the hard wiring of the female brain, because they are all descendants of women who had that trait. The others did not survive. The hypergamous instinct also dictates that women seek out another mate in a number of years.  Of course, in the ancient past, she would seek a mate with the greatest capability to protect and provide. But the instinct to move on is about reproductive diversity, I believe. In the modern world, the gold digging instinct is less important than the urge to diversify (have sex with others) and this explains why so many women cheat on their successful husbands with an economically inferior man. It’s about a change of cock more than anything.

A non-monogamous relationship defeats this need by removing the requirement to get rid of your partner, or cheat, in order to satisfy this instinct.  Hypergamy is exacerbated by monogamy.  This is why the number one reason for marriage breakdowns is marriage itself.   How many times do you hear  “I’m just not in love with him anymore”  No particular reason, she just isn’t. She wants him out of the way so she can seek out that new dick. She begins to sabotage the relationship, she withholds sex, she starts arguments over nothing. He grovels and buys flowers and reads relationship advice and tries to ramp up the romance and be Mr. Nice Guy.  This just shits her off to no end, because what she really wants is for him to fuck off so she can get herself some fresh meat. She isn’t even aware of it. She rationalizes it all by making him the bad guy in her mind, and usually to everybody else as well.

The long term, or rather permanent monogamy of the past is dead gentlemen. It can only exist in an environment where to be otherwise carries a very high risk of adverse consequences.

Women have none.

The good old days are not coming back, and they weren’t good for men anyway.  What needs to happen is for men to claim the same freedom women have.

Remember the sixties?  Civil rights, women’s rights (feminism) and free love?  Feminism was made popular largely because it hitched itself to free love. Women flocked to the movement, and so did men. This is a far cry from the attitudes that feminism promotes today.

I have a vision of the future. The 2020s and beyond will be the era of civil rights, men’s rights, and free love. Yes, we will be the new sexual liberation movement. We will be the movement that brings an end to shaming people based on their sexual lifestyle and choices, whether they be straight, gay, bisexual, monogamous, swingers, or anything in between. The personal is not political, and it’s about time that feminists got that message loud and clear, from men, and women.  That might be a little hard to do though while so many of us are willing to throw rocks at any women engaging in any form of casual sex, as I  have seen so often on MRM sites.

I’d like MRAs to think about the current feminist stance on matters of sex, and sexuality.  The view that women are somehow rendered victims of something horrible by sexual contact with men, is not unlike the traditionalist view that women are sullied and dirtied by sexual activity with men.  And I ask you something, if indeed men are not the pigs and apes and lower creatures that feminists say we are, then why should a woman be held in contempt for engaging in sexual activity with men?  Why should the sexual activity she engages in devalue her if men are fully human and wonderful creatures?  How is she dirtied by sex with men unless we also hate men, and think low of ourselves?

Unless a woman adheres to traditional standards, and demands commitment, which many men in the MRM and outside the MRM, are rejecting, is she crazy, victimized, or a low life? Is she worthless? This sounds very similar to what radfems, the church and traditionalists say. So what is the difference between us and them on sexuality issues?  Not much in some cases, and women have noticed. I know that for a fact.

About Peter Pan

Peter Pan is a man going his own way, and an advocate for total sexual freedom for men and women. His philosophy is no marriage, no de facto, no children and no monogamy.

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  • http://www.johntheother.com John the Other

    I would add to my own version of that list – no cohabitation. Although, that might be implied already

    • Paul Elam

      I think that is what he means by no defacto.

    • jack

      Most countries have laws to the effect that after so many months living together, the woman acquires rights. I heard Brazil (a rising feminocracy) had put this at 6 months. I think as more and more men choose not to marry, we’re heading to a point where marriage becomes automatic upon cohabitation. Men will have no choice but not to cohabit any more. The next step will then be for a man to be declared married to any woman he has been in touch with, like dates, exchange of e-mails.

      My mileage varies regarding the chances of meeting “benign sluts” like Tam. I think they’re rare and in such great demand that they don’t exist for long in their pristine state.

  • echofoxtrot

    Thanks for the post. I will add a few pointers:
    1) ALWAYS go to HER place to play. If things get nasty, you will want to be able to grab your stuff and run out the door quickly. MUCH harder to get HER to leave YOUR place; and a concerned neighbor calling the cops will have YOU thrown in jail.
    2) For the first time in the sack, record the sex covertly. You can easily get mics that look like pens, connected to a digital voice recorder, and the whole arrangement in a small shoulder bag. If she later cries rape, you can prove her a liar.
    3) If you decide to call it off with someone over the phone, record the call, as well. Hell hath no fury like a scorned woman, and the scorn may also prompt her to make up crap about you.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

    The MRM would do itself very well to take the reigns with this type of living.

    The last thing we need is free loving WGTOW being shamed as sluts or the ‘Devil’s willful child’ or some such nonsense. If MRA men are to say proudly that they are calling the shots in their life as best they can, and that they are rulers of their choices because they are MTGOW, then so be it for the girls.

    I believe we have an opportunity to run with this and all to win. The feminists despise women who are ‘sluts’ and shame them as men-loving turncoats. Feminism wants to lash the whip and say who bonks who and where and when for that matter. Well I say fuck that.

    Also, I can tell you I have never met a ‘slutty’ woman who sees herself as a feminist. They all see through that clap-trap.

    Oh, by the way. ‘slutty’ here means a WGTOW and not a lass showing skirt for a drink and a free hay ride with all expenses paid. I am talking about the women who have a beer with the blokes if they want, and sometimes they might just want to go out for sex with someone else.

    These girls are great to be with, they have an easy smile and they love us for all the reasons we love them. They are adoring as are we are to them.

    Thank you Peter Pan whoever you are. Count me in mate.

  • Sting Chameleon

    Solid article, but there’s a reason for the slut/stud double-standard: It doesn’t take much for a woman to sleep with a lot of men, but it takes a lot for a man to sleep with many women.

  • http://menzmagazine.blogspot.com/ Factory

    It’s nice work if you can get it…what percentage of men, do you suppose, can attract these women?

    So, you are at least tacitly advocating Game as well. No fear there, since I agree. But this article is essentially a rich man avowing the benefits of unregulated markets.

    Men have a desire for monogamy for a reason, and Hypergamy is just one of several basic drives that can be appealed to. The fact that our society does is more an indictment on society than the actual instinct.

    I do agree that monogamy is a ridiculous notion in this day and age, but fuckbuddies can’t fulfil every need for all men. No matter what Tom Leykis says.

    The MRM is about recognizing reality and trying to find the best accomodation of that reality….and for you personally, no doubt a promiscuous society would be most enjoyable. For the vast majority of men, though, it would be a sexual wasteland.

    And nothing destroys a society faster than large numbers of sexually frustrated men…ask the Muslims.

    • Paul Elam

      I think there is a bigger picture here. From a mental health standpoint I have always thought that the most pervasive problem for straight men is that they do not know how to let a woman go. That speaks directly to your point that they are wired for monogamy.

      I think that is only half true. Human beings are wired to have someone give them monogamy, but not near always to return it. We all like a “human in waiting,” so we have the assurances of avoiding solitude, but getting over that may be as much a product of emotional maturity as much as it is overcoming biological programing.

      I agree that fuckbuddies can’t fulfill all of a persons needs, but then again, NOTHING AND NO ONE can do that, including a monogamous partner. No matter what path we are on the result will be lacking in some way.

      Taking the lowest risk scenario with the least expectation sounds as good to me as anything.

      • white demon

        I quote:”I agree that fuckbuddies can’t fulfill all of a persons needs, but then again, NOTHING AND NO ONE can do that, including a monogamous partner. No matter what path we are on the result will be lacking in some way.”

        I couldn’t agree more!

    • MrStodern

      My problem with Game and those who promote is that it appears to be all about scoring sex from YOUNG good-looking women, as opposed to just good-looking women. Even I could nab myself a cougar if I were inclined to. And I have about as much Game as a five year old boy with Down’s syndrome.

      I’m not saying that pursuing sex from young women is bad, but I think any MGHOW should take into consideration that Game is essentially their tool for extracting free sex from the masses of 20-something whores out there, and that going after real sluts (mostly older women, I imagine) requires a very different tactic: honesty. At least, that I’ve observed. If there’s anything Game embodies, it isn’t honesty.

      • Raven01

        Honesty beats Game hands down with the 20-something crowd too.
        Remember many of these women in their 20’s have had no real connection to their father(or any man other than possibly a maternal grandfather) due to their mothers choice. So, they may not see men as people, this is where the danger lays. They won’t think twice about trying to manipulate you like any other machine in their life. But, they are still susceptible to being attracted by the same things that worked on the savannahs. And, being confident enough to be that bluntly honest seems to denote to some that you must have several traits that allow you to just not give a rat’s ass what others might think and has the effect of you being the one pursued by the 20-somethings.
        Just keep in mind that these are also the ones most likely to start following your around and making demands as, they are the most likely to lack the experience to know that you are not there to fill holes in their lives.

        • MrStodern

          When I speak of honesty, I mean mostly concerning what you actually want out of the hot young tart you’re chatting up. Guys who talk about developing Game most often advocate against making it clear that you’re not interested in a relationship, marriage, or children, because odds are good that the young broad you’re talking to is very interested in at least one of those things, so shutting the door on any of them causes her to shut her legs to you forever.

          Keep in mind that I don’t know the first thing about what’s effective and what isn’t. I’m just repeating what most PUAs tell me. They generally agree on acting like you don’t give a shit, while also pretending to being open to certain things, like having a girlfriend. While on a date, at least.

          • Adam

            Being honest is much easier actually, less time wasted, less frustration, and you lose the manipulative women quickly when you reject monogamy. You’ll get rejected more but once you find a girl who wants the same as you obviously it’s going to go much smoother, then you don’t need “game”. Most of “game” is bullshit anyway, PUA “experts” are mostly scam artists who barely get laid themselves.

    • Peter Pan

      No game. No rich. When I began this lifestyle I was financially broken. I was living in a rented apartment struggling to pay my bills. Most of the fuck buddies I collected were financially better off then I, including Tam.

      My game was simple. I did not want women who wanted a serious relationship to hang around. So I stated that such relationships were totally out of the question in every profile I put on dating sites, and did not date or fuck any woman that didn’t understand that. Also, I made a point of telling any women that was interested in me, that I had friends with benefits already, and that I had no intention of disposing of any of them.

      I also had some couple friends that I was involved in threesomes with, and I made no secret of this either. In other words, I sprayed this stuff around like nice girl repellent and that left only women who found all these things attractive. What I found is that these women ended up being the best women that I have been involved with. I have had no woman trouble since adopting this lifestyle and sticking to it faithfully.

      You decide what lifestyle you want to live, what boundaries you want to have. You announce those boundaries to all, and refuse to budge on them one inch. All those that can not accept those boundaries stay away from you, and others that can are attracted to you. It is that simple

      • MrStodern

        I can tell you that one major hurdle for many men is their inability to trust that such tactics will actually attract any women at all. It’s like believing in the idea that there are more than, say, five women on the entire planet who aren’t “like that” seems too much to hope for to them.

      • Peter Pan

        I’ve known so many guys for example who want to stay single, but they make all the mistakes in the world. I used to pull about three dates per week off the internet. And I used to have sex with most of them. My friends used to say how the fuck do you do it. In a word, honesty.

        I wanted sexually wild women who were up for anything in the bedroom, so that is what I said I wanted. I did not waste my time responding to or seeking out any other women. When I searched for compatible women on dated sites, I ticked all the boxes I wanted. I excluded from my searches all but the most hardcore extremists. Anal sex, check. Threesomes, check, all other deviate things, check. I would send messages only to women that fitted my criteria. If I received a wink or message from a woman, I would go to her profile, not to see her pic, but to see what she was looking for, and what perversions she was interested in. If she had not ticked the boxes that I wanted I was not interested, regardless of how great looking she was or any other desirable traits. In the bin, don’t look back.

        Also, I did no treat any woman that I met or engaged with as blow up dolls or disposable rags to wipe my dick on. You just treat them all like friends and have some interest in them outside of sex. It really is that simple. If you want a sexually hot woman and you are not interested in marriage and other legally binding relationships, then you must seek a woman that is sexually adventurous that is not seeking those sort of relationships. But you can’t fake this, you have to appreciate women for more than sex, and you have to actually be fine with them playing just as hard as you. You have to accept they have their fuck buddies, just as they must accept that you have yours.

        It really is a no brainer. Guys just keep shooting themselves in the foot because they can’t lose the double standards, or they keep letting Ms Nice Girl steer them in another direction.

        • MrStodern

          What if you’re not so “up for anything” in the bedroom? How do you avoid the nice girls then?

          I’m not asking for myself, just posing a question a lot of men probably have. I have no intention of pursuing women ever again.

      • MGTOWfi

        “Nice girl repellent,” LOL! Sounds like a way of redefining NAWALT: not all women are like that, but most nice girls are.

        • Peter Pan

          The way I see it this. Yes most nice girls are like that. The only ones that are not are the ones with very low libidos, and do you want one of those?

          Monogamy had it’s basis in necessity. Without the pill and condoms, and other devises, if everyone lead lives like me, the outcome would be disastrous. It was this fact, that kept women monogamous, as well as the social and legal sanctions and chastity belts etc.

          Unless you think we are going back to having no pill, condoms, and having social and legal sanctions similar to those times, then most women with healthy libidos are not going to be able to remain monogamous. Anything from a quick fuck to a new relationship is just a bit of typing and a few mouse clicks away. Even Brad Pitt can’t keep a woman happy long. What hope have you got?

          You can live in the past and in resentment, or you can move forward and accept the reality that women are not what they were made seem like from the restrictions of a long gone environment. What us men need to do is gain an equal amount of sexual freedom, as well as overturn anti-male sex laws, and all anti-male laws.

          Part of the process of overturning those laws, and gaining sexual freedom for men, is the growing number of MGTOW. These men would be far more effective if they engaged in activism as well as going their own way. Also, while going your own way, unless you are going to be celebrate, you are going to be having sex with someone. If that someone is a monogamous relationship, congratulations, you just walked right into what your supposed to be running from. So who can you have sex with. Prostitutes? Great going, now you are paying women for simulating a woman who wants you. Why not just seek out women who actually want you, and do not require a relationship. Tell them up front that you are not going to get into a relationship, and that you enjoy other sexual partners. What have you got to lose, what is the alternative. Lie perhaps. Congratulations, you just increased your risk through the roof. The choices are, hookers, monogamous nice girls, or sexual free spirits (sluts) The good sluts, are the only choice that offers everything, keep your cash, have real full bodied sex complete with desire, have real friendships with intimacy and maybe even love.

          No contest.

    • John A

      Factory,
      You make a good point, monogamy is not viable for men if it involves a hypergamous woman. Hypergamy makes monogamy slavery for men. Either you slave to improve her life or you aren’t good enough and she treats like shit before dumping you.

      Monogamy per se, is not the problem, it’s the obligations enforced by hypergamy that make it slavery.

      Often times when feminists talk of “the patriarchy”, what they really mean is “the hypergiarchy”.

    • Sting Chameleon

      Monogamy is the safety net for the masses of us who don’t have ‘game’ or whatever. Monogamy ensures neither of you will stray and there will be a solid foundation of economic and emotional support. Of course, this is only true in a society where it’s enforced and there’s grave consequences for those who break their contract.

    • Bewildered

      ” I do agree that monogamy is a ridiculous notion in this day and age..”

      It’s has been MADE RIDICULOUS.

  • Kimski

    Standing ovation.

    -And let me add that women like Tam are far from rare, thank you very much.
    :)

  • MGTOWfi

    Thank you for writing this, Mr. Pan. I found the article oddly therapeutic. And well done, sluts.

  • droobles

    I understand your point of view and fully support freedom of choice to anyone.

    However, to the men who want to start a family it is a little more complicated when reading your last two paragraphs.

    There is also the envy, a guy who ins’t able to sleep so much around probably is bothered when forming a relationship with a woman that slept around. Women doesn’t seem affected as much by that, in my experience.

    there are also economical problems society will face as we move from the traditional family (and I mean that as a family living in the same house, not the guy/girl children. I am not in love with the idea of families with children and same sex parents, but I don’t mind that. EVERYONE is free to choose what they want to do. What do I care if it does not hurt me?)

    And, as we move to a more free sexual world, we bring the fear of a more intense competition for sex. I might be very wrong, but if researches that show that women find 80% of men to be ugly prove to be accurate, than we return to a small fraction of men enjoying all this freedom and a lot of others being ignored.

    Sure, I don’t get a lot of women, mostly due with other problems than appearence, not that I am good looking or anything, but I can understand how a lot of guys will feel threatened.

    Anyways, I accept living with the consequences of my choices and I think people should be free to do what they want, I will just have to work harder then.

  • Bubbles

    Monogamy is the first major shit test. Agree to it at your own risk. As it says in ye olde Misandry Bubble, women are usually the first to demand monogamy, and the first to want out of it. Caveat emptor, gentlemen.

  • MrStodern

    You bring up a lot of fine points Peter Pan, and give me a fair deal to think about as I contemplate how to live the rest of my red pill life. I’m not yet thirty, though pushing it, and, barring some type of accident or a terminal illness, have many years left to either enjoy or detest. And whether or not I enjoy my remaining years probably hinges pretty heavily on how I choose to conduct my interactions with women. If I choose to have any interactions with them at all, that is.

    It’s difficult for me to comment at all on the subject of, as you call them, sexual free spirits, seeings how I have no experience whatsoever in dealing so closely with women. I don’t develop connections with any of them that would allow me to peer very deeply into their personal lives, and my own personal life has never included any intimate relationships, dating, or sex. I wouldn’t know the first thing about how common or uncommon real sluts are, though, based on what I have observed, I do imagine that most women in their 20’s fall more often under the category of “attention whore”, or just plain “whore”, while the older ones more often fit the “sexual free spirit” label.

    Perhaps that’s key to helping other men find greater happiness in their sex lives? Won’t be easy weaning them off the young pussy, I can tell you that. The older a man gets, the easier it is for him to score that young pussy, it would seem.

  • Raven01

    “And I ask you something, if indeed men are not the pigs and apes and lower creatures that feminists say we are, then why should a woman be held in contempt for engaging in sexual activity with men?”
    The only people I see doing this traditionalists or people tired of women being able to play both sides of the fence. Riding the cock carousel AND taking advantage financially of the men the have sex with.

    I know this works, very well for several years infact. The one thing that can throw a wrench in it is the reproductive drive. We often discuss as a society the “maternal instinct” and quite stupidly ignore the “paternal instinct”. This lifestyle were it the norm would pretty much force one of 2 changes to family law. 1/ Your body, your choice, your responsibility. or 2/ Parental agreements would become no different than any other contract between two individuals.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/MassEFR34k J3DIforce1

    And the crowd roars and chants PAN…PAN…PAN…PAN. Blazing article of bad assness brother. As a fellow MGTOW you have no idea how great this article makes me feel. Great article!

    • http://www.youtube.com/user/MassEFR34k J3DIforce1

      I myself am for manogamy. But I am the, shall we say,the sexless variaty of the MGTOW movment. But those who may disagree with this article in favor of monogamy consider this! Its honest. Its the truth. And the truth hurts. But as I always say, a truth that hurts is a lot better than bullshit.

  • MenDiscontinued

    Maybe I missed something here, and I scanned the article as best I could, but what is MGHOW ? As compared to MGTOW ?

    • http://www.youtube.com/user/MassEFR34k J3DIforce1

      Men going his and men going their.

      • MenDiscontinued

        Thanks!

  • Codebuster

    So what’s the matter with me then? What happens if you’re just not interested in fuckbuddies/friends with benefits? What happens if the idea just leaves you stone cold with a limp dick?

    I think that this fuckbuddies scenario exists because of the whole constellation of contexts that constitutes modern culture. For example, pornography on the internet and at every newsagent constantly reminding men that they have “needs” that must be met. Ultimately all these possibilities have their origins in our contraceptive technologies, especially the contraceptive pill.

    I don’t know how many women I’ve had sex with. It’s not something I’m proud of… though it’s wrong to say that I regret it… wrong to say that I regret anything, otherwise I wouldn’t be the person that I am today with all the realizations that I have. But I think of the collateral damage, I think of the question, is everybody really getting what they want out of this? For all their pretense of being carefree and unattached, I don’t think they are.

    Bottom line? We can only entertain the idea of fuckbuddies principally because of the cultural possibilities ultimately attributable to the contraceptive pill. It’s a false construct, a house of cards. The contraceptive pill tampers with biology, transforming sex from its purpose for procreation to sex as a commodity, a leisure activity. And from this we have derivative industries like pornography and PUA game constantly reminding men, hammering into men, a drive that just isn’t there. Hence the need for fuckbuddies.

    I’ve been going my own way, making up my own mind, long before there was any such thing as MGTOW. Somehow the whole package of fuckbuddies is inconsistent with authentic mgtow. The socializing, the networks, the making nice with large numbers of people who have no motivations outside of their small worlds, no passions to define themselves by. I just can’t be bothered… too much of an individualist I guess. Besides, I always felt that having sex when I was younger was always more exciting, with the anticipation, the challenge, etc, etc. I don’t understand what the allure is about fuckbuddies/fwb. Paying a prostitute (to go away, as Charlie Sheen would say) makes more sense than a fuckbuddy who exists in this neither-here-nor-there realm as a human being who you just can’t discard when you’re done with her… irrespective of what she says about her motivations.

    The contraceptive pill messes with biology which in turn messes with mind and culture. It’s all a contrived market, imho. I have to be honest and say that I’m looking for an alternative direction… maybe an alternative cosmology (the universe is a big place with a lot of possibilities… we ain’t seen nothin’ yet). There’s something seriously wrong with western culture and it’s more than just feminism and chivalry. I think that the contraceptive pill and its attendant technologies ultimately have a lot to answer for.

    • MenDiscontinued

      Nothing wrong with you. You just place higher importance on other activities. Nothing wrong with that at all. After all, sex comes with quite significant risks. Permanent damage… STD’s…

      I’ve been there, that shit ain’t fun.

      What’s even worse is the women who don’t care about getting tested or don’t want to go get cleaned (taking a pill)….. yeah, try that one. Having to call each girl you slept with in a 1 year time period is a complete shitstorm as women rain down fire on you and accuse you of everything….

      • Codebuster

        Yup, the STDs… now there’s a disincentive.

        Also, the risk of pregnancy… how can you be sure that your friend with benefits hasn’t ulterior motives? How can you be sure of anything?

        • echofoxtrot

          I finally got my vasectomy at age 51. In hindsight, I wish I had it done at age 21.

          • kiwihelen

            This is an interesting issue. Medics are very loathe to do any kind of permanent sterilisation on anyone who has never had children.

            I have been trying seriously since 35 to get a permanent solution. In 6 weeks time (everything going well), it will be done – and I have just turned 42.

    • MrStodern

      Some guys are genuinely pretty horny, some are just pressured into feeling like shit if they aren’t getting laid “enough”. It’s all about knowing which category you fit into. Figure that out, and behave accordingly.

      As for the pros/cons of fuck buddies, I wouldn’t know.

      • Codebuster

        Doesn’t there come a time though, when it all gets pretty old? For anyone.

        • MrStodern

          Sex itself? Yeah, there’s people that get burnt out on it. It would seem that it’s not about how much sex you’ve had, but your reasons for having a lot of it. A lot of guys bang tons of broads because they’ll feel like shit if they don’t, and I imagine that contributes to an early demise for their libido.

          As for never engaging with another human being in a meaningful way, as in, only ever having sex with them, some people can’t handle that after a time. Some can.

    • Codebuster

      And one more thing… let us not forget that there would be no feminism without our contraceptive technologies. As a commodity with both monetary and cultural value, sex as a leisure activity, kick-started during the sexual revolution, played a crucial role in the rise of feminism. The relationship between the success of feminism and the rise of our contraceptive technologies is not an accident. By commodifying sex, feminism mobilized chivalry and prostitution in new ways. Feminism is both chivalry and prostitution, in that it depends on female sexuality to get its way. Feminism is chivalry in that it is simply a restatement of our established tradition of pedestalizing women and it is prostitution in that it relies on chivalry to extract freebies for women at the expense of men.

      • http://pinterest.com/zetapersei/male-privilege/ Perseus

        Both correct and astute.

      • externalangst

        Codebuster, with male reproductive technologies its possible for some fundamental changes too.

        • Codebuster

          Maybe, but it still amounts to interfering with biology that ultimately impacts on cultural choices. Biology takes a long time to evolve, and in the absence of external interference, there’s a tight fit between biological predispositions and culture. But as soon as you introduce an external agent (reliable, widely-adopted contraception) that impacts on choices in a significant way, you’re in effect introducing a catalyst for rapid cultural change and instability. What was previously a steady-state cultural known becomes an unstable catastrophe – for example, look to where our contemporary zeitgeist is headed.

    • jack

      I think that the contraceptive pill and its attendant technologies ultimately have a lot to answer for.

      Darwinists have a theory about how the pill could have been responsible for modern women’s lack of sexual drive? It goes like this:

      1) The generation 1 pill-takers were promiscuous women. That’s what they took the pill for.

      2) Said generation 1 pill-takers got pregnant less often or not at all: their “promiscuous” genes didn’t get passed on.

      3) Today’s women are overwhelmingly the offspring of the generation 1 laying hens (who didn’t take the pill because they felt no urge to fuck around).

      • droobles

        that is an interesting point.
        So, the hedonist model will make everyone unhappy in the long term.

    • Adam

      “And from this we have derivative industries like pornography and PUA game constantly reminding men, hammering into men, a drive that just isn’t there.”

      I’ve been thinking about this too after reading TyphonBlue’s recent articles and I completely agree. When I’ve been single up until now I’ve been able to get laid a bit, but I’ve always felt like I need to be chasing women and trying to get laid all the time, and feeling like shit when I don’t.

      I broke up with my ex girlfriend about a month ago, basically because when I was with her I struggled with ED and had little desire to actually have sex with her, and she decided that she wanted to end it. Two girlfriends before her complained of the same thing and cheated on me. There have only been a few women that I’ve felt strong sexual desire for. The rest, even though they were good looking girls, just didn’t turn me on that much. I thought that I had a high sex drive but really I don’t at all.

  • Samantha77

    The whole point of fuck buddies is that they are friends. Real friends, not flesh and blood fleshlights. You can have sex with them, and it’s as easy as making coffee for each other. I have two really regular guys that are local, and one occasional that is interstate. None of them are what you would consider hunks, and one is much older than I, and slightly disabled. Sometimes I have two of them here at once. A few times I’ve had three of them here at once.

    The local guys have their own keys and they can come pretty much when they like when my son is at his fathers for the week.

    Any guy is is average, can have this sort of lifestyle. Even a guy that is what you would consider unattractive can. The most important rule is, no double standards. Women like me, and the women in this article are everywhere. Most guys wont meet us though, not the real us. The guys that worship monogamous nice girls and are judgmental of women like me, and prone to making it known, never get to know women like me, we are invisible, right under their noses.

    I know lots of guys from my work life etc, that make disparenging remarks about women who are like me, and then spend their nights wanking to a Sasha Grey porno. They don’t even realize the real version of Sasha Grey is right in front of them, and they will never get invited. Most guys are their own worst enemies. They fuck a woman a few times, than they want to own her. They only get involved with nice monogamous women and wonder why their lives are full of controlling, trouble makers, and bad break ups with false accusations and getting their cars keyed.

    As for the committed relationship side of things. They are as common as hell. I know lots of swinging couples. I even know couples that got together as swinging couples, got married and decided to have kids. Children should be planned by both parents, and this is what they do. They decide together to have a child, they stop swinging, the stop taking the pill, and they resume when the child is old enough to get baby sitted while they go out for a night of fun.

    Diseases, now there is joke. I’ve been in the swinging scene for years. I’ve been to really extreme get togethers. I know lots of swingers, and I don’t know, or even have ever heard of a swinger getting anything serious. I got herpes from a mono relationship. I’ve never got anything from swinging. Believe it or not, the scene is not full of stds. When you know that your lifestyle, relies on you staying clean, you use condoms, and you make sure your partners do. As for oral, I’ve been a bukake queen on nights, always given it without, so does everyone. I’ve never got anything from it. Use condoms for penetration and you are pretty safe.

    While ongoing fuck buddies are friends and very close ones at that, when I take my guys to a party we are there to play, and it’s on. I can put out in that environment for lots of guys, that is just fun, but for a guy to get ongoing access he has to be more than that.

    From where I’m looking, it isn’t women like me that cause guys trouble. It isn’t us that make false accusations, get pregnant without consultation, or wipe out your bank accounts after a relationship ends. We get all the bad press, while goody two shoes does all the bad deeds. The women who only know one way to love, ownership, control, insecurity, jealousy, and all that shit are the ones you have to avoid, most women in other words. But as long as you worship nice girls and monogamy you will keep going back to the dog that bit you.

    • Codebuster

      “Any guy [that - sic] is average, can have this sort of lifestyle. Even a guy that is what you would consider unattractive can.”

      For me, this is the key, methinks. I have trouble with anything average, whether male or female, or for anyone who validates average. It’s a hurdle that I cannot cross. My problem I guess.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

      Samantha77

      Your posts I love to bits and thank goodness you are here.

      It’s a brand new day for us in many ways and I want very much to reclaim sexual territory from the femmo governance. People like yourself are needed to shove it right up their asses.

      If they despise you then I love you. Period.

      Carry on mam. Carry on as you do and say.

    • MrStodern

      “They fuck a woman a few times, than they want to own her.”

      I used to be one of the guys who desired to have a woman all to himself. In my teen years, and early twenties, some girl would catch my fancy, and I’d see her dating some other guy, because they’d never be interested in me, and I’d get quite jealous. Not enough to do or say anything about it, though. I’d just pretend like it doesn’t bother me until my feelings would simply fade away and I’d find some other girl to invest interest in.

      It wasn’t until a few years ago that I realized how selfish (and insane) it was to expect one person to fulfill my every need and desire, and abandoned all pursuit of it.

      Pursuit. Tch. Like I ever put any real effort into getting a girlfriend…

    • http://pinterest.com/zetapersei/male-privilege/ Perseus

      Ohh, ‘samantha’, of course ;-)

      Great great post. Very educational, IMO. I will be ruminating a lot on what you’ve said, along with this great article.

    • http://www.youtube.com/user/MassEFR34k J3DIforce1

      yeah im probably gonna get blasted for this but meh!

      “I know lots of guys from my work life etc, that make disparenging remarks about women who are like me”

      I think in most of these cases its not that your being judged for who are as much as it is as what you are, or your experiance if you will. What I mean is they see women such as yourself having multiple partners and they are already competing against other men in their mind. Whether you will sleep with them or not is irrelevant .Men can be intimadated by a slut. A women who has had countless partners is a lot to live up to So I think men find comfort in slut shaming. There isnt as much pressure with something thats been around the block a few times as there is with something with a high amount of frequent flyer miles.

      “Most guys are their own worst enemies. They fuck a woman a few times, than they want to own her.”

      As its been said in this thread, most guys are wired for monogamy. To claim that men want to “own” a woman after a few fucks is ludacris. That type of man is few and far between and tends to be a trait of the control freak. No! The problem is as I and others have said…men are wird for monogamy. Instead of tapping that ass for months or even years on end before deciding “hmmmm…maybe ive got a keeper here”, most guys will latch on (and quickly) to what they feel is a good match. “Ownership” has nothing to do with it.

      “They only get involved with nice monogamous women and wonder why their lives are full of controlling, trouble makers, and bad break ups with false accusations and getting their cars keyed.”

      Welcome to the western condition! Nuff said!

      • MrStodern

        “What I mean is they see women such as yourself having multiple partners…”

        You bring up a great point here, and I think there’s a lot of truth to it.

        Personally, I’m going to be intimidated one way or another, because regardless of a woman openly having multiple male partners, I’m fully aware that just about any woman out there can go from monogamous to promiscuous any time they like. They might mean it when they say the’re only dating one guy at a time, but it doesn’t mean that they won’t change their minds about either dating one person at a time, or dating the guy they’re with at the moment.

        Of course this doesn’t cause me to slut shame, but I’m probably in the minority on that. I just don’t judge people based on them not wanting to be monogamous, and my pain doesn’t motivate me to insult women in spite of that.

      • Sting Chameleon

        No, most guys aren’t “wired for monogamy”, it’s simply their only option. It’s either monogamy or celibacy, but if they could do something else, they would.

    • JFinn

      How many other women do they have besides you? How often do you come over to their place with the other women? What is the ratio of judgmental guys to judgmental gals at your work, making disparaging remarks about the non-monogomous? … Since you say women like you are everywhere.

      What seems to be everywhere, are men and women in exclusive relationships who cheat on the side. About 20%

      And, no, most guys are not their worse enemy. Most women are guys’ worst enemies. Wanting a monogamous relationship does not mean “wanting to own a woman.” Wanting to share an unique bond with a woman shouldn’t lead to getting screwed over.

      And the FWB lifestyle doesn’t solve the lack of fairness in child custody and mommy support. Regarding those guys who “jack off to Sasha Grey” – the happiest moment in their lives was the birth of their firstborn.

      I’ve gone on both paths and they both have their advantages. But most people I’ve known and read about ended up disliking the lifestyle. Jealousy is always an issue. There are usually special rules. “Don’t bang my friends” is a popular one.

    • MenDiscontinued

      make disparenging remarks about women who are like me, and then spend their nights wanking to a Sasha Grey porno. They don’t even realize the real version of Sasha Grey is right in front of them,

      I think this is mostly a protective measure. I mean, how much time does it take to get a woman comfortable enough with her sexuality to let inhibitions go? To get to the point where BOTH parties are comfortable and enjoying themselves at the same time. Porn just means instant access to that “type” and humans usually take a route of least resistance (if it takes less effort, they’ll do it first) so it bypasses all that. The real version of Sasha Grey might be in front of us… but is it worth the effort to find out if she is or isn’t? She could be like all the other bad eggs out there and chances are extremely high its rotten. There are plenty of starfishes in bed, who put little effort into it.

      Like other commenters mentioned, it’s the indoctrinated thinking of monogamy playing a part too that makes men shame her for having multiple partners. As well as the male competition working against us too, so its not just about her.

      Hope this makes some sense. I couldn’t find a way to type out my thoughts.

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/MassEFR34k J3DIforce1

        Exactly! Very well said my friend.

      • MrStodern

        There’s a lot of men out there who, because of not being very attractive, have to spend a lot more time and energy trying to get women to open up to them sexually, and eventually this leads to them turning to porn more and more and going out less and less.

        I know a lot about this, being that I’m one of those guys. Our attitude tends to be: “I’m not George Clooney and I never will be, so there’s no chance of me getting to bang a hot young chick on the first date like he can, so what’s the use?”

        • echofoxtrot

          MrStodern,
          Hot young chicks aren’t all they are cracked up to be. In the real world, there are very few George Clooneys out there; and many older women in their 40s and 50s who realize that they’re not Miss America, and are eager for reasonably-compatible male companionship on any number of levels. There are plenty of free dating sites, like Plentyoffish. Even in the best of circumstances, a man always need to keep in the back of his mind that women aren’t like cute puppies, but more like a pit bull that could tear your leg off at any minute, if you say or do the “wrong” thing. Even though I have been to bed with about 35 women, most of those experiences have had as much anxiety as pleasure with them. Restated, you’re not missing out on all that much. As you get older (and the pool of available females also gets older), you will find the scenarios to be far more conducive to your happiness and well-being.

          • MrStodern

            “Hot young chicks aren’t all they are cracked up to be.”

            I know. Problem is, I know because people tell me such things, not because I’ve really seen it for myself.

          • Sting Chameleon

            Why would I want to fuck a woman in her 40s (or 50s) if I’m a young man myself? I grant you that there’s some very well-maintained women of that age, but seriously, why would a young guy go for some fat, haggard, middle-aged broad?

          • echofoxtrot

            StingChameleon,
            There’s an old saying about older women: that they don’t yell, they don’t swell, and they don’t tell. An older woman will be less likely to try to trap you into fatherhood (and herself into motherhood). The opposite can be said about thirty-something “biological clockers” who may see the man they happen to be with as their last chance to have a baby – and to tell with his thoughts on the subject,.

          • MrStodern

            @Sting Chameleon:

            I see pros and cons to fucking younger and older women. Neither one seems overwhelmingly the better choice to me. I think it’s all a matter of preference, a matter of deciding on what you can and cannot accept.

            Older woman don’t ever catch my eye. I’m always drawn to the tits and asses of the hot twenty-somethings. Although I do have a thing for gigantic racks, and enjoy the sight of them even if they do belong to a woman pushing 40, I never run into such women in real life.

          • MrStodern

            Online dating? Yeah… Been there. Let’s just say going back to it would be harder than working up the courage to go skydiving.

            And I really don’t have the courage for skydiving. Seriously.

        • MenDiscontinued

          Sure, yes. This is a valid point and I would agree. It’s basically giving up hope and is near the point of suicide (that is, if you’ve grown up believing that your only self-worth and validation by getting pussy) which is entirely too common among men.

          • MrStodern

            Even though I don’t hinge my sense of self-worth on my ability to get laid, it can still seem rather pointless to spend as much time, money, and energy as I’m likely to need to in order to pry a girl’s legs open, when there’s a perfectly good collection of porn on their computer (and possibly a Fleshlight) at home. Even though not scoring every night doesn’t depress the fuck out of me, I do have an urge to get laid, made stronger by the fact that whenever in the Nine Hells it does happen, it’ll be for the first time.

            I may not worship pussy, but a part of me still wants it. And my brain knows how much of an uphill battle it is for me to get it, and reasons that jerking off is the less aggravating option. I’m sure I’m not alone in this.

          • echofoxtrot

            MrStodern,
            You are correct that dealing with a woman on ANY level can involve a great deal of aggravation. For me, playing the game on my own terms greatly lessens the aggravation. I would suggest meeting local women on *free* dating sites, such as plentyoffish.com. With online dating, you do 80% of the “foreplay” before you even meet them. I advise meeting them for coffee at a Barnes and Noble bookstore, where you can cruise the racks with her (assuming you can agree on a type of books you both like). I *always* say something like, “Is it okay with you if we go dutch?” Many will be put off at the idea that they won’t be wined and dined, but then, because they already like you (as you have already done the foreplay, on your computer), they should be okay with it. My guess is that you will have them in the sack within 3 or 4 meetings. It’s worth a try.

  • Jay

    I think feminism is pushing very hard for the whole world to become a Sweden. Anti-sex is big in Sweden from a legal perspective. Oscar Schwarz recently wrote a great book about it. Sweden pretty much views penis/vagina sex – ie. the very biological process with creates humans as “male violence against women”. Can you fuckin believe it?

    This is the heart of modern feminism, it is anti-sex and pro-prude. That’s why they are for “anti-raunch” etc. Which countries have the most feminists? Iceland, Norway and Sweden – and take a look how anti-sex their laws are, even worse than the United States.

    So, I agree with the sentiments of this article. We should not live in a world where the state owns our sexuality.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

      Abso fuckin’ lutely.

  • http://pinterest.com/zetapersei/male-privilege/ Perseus

    Wow, what a great article and a really great topic, IMO.

  • http://evilweasel.net/ The Evil Weasel

    Great article, Mr Pan. This pretty much sums up the approach to life I have arrived at.

    The only place a modern woman can have in my life is as a fuck-and-chuck. Feminism basically ruined women for anything else.

    I know many other men who have exactly the same attitude. Feminism has hurt women more than it has hurt men.

  • Europa Phoenix

    That’s interesting. I felt pain when I read this article… real pain. And I really don’t understand why.
    My mind says “good for him”, but my heart is bleeding.

    Jealousy? I don’t think so. It’s more a mix of despair and fear (the last piece of blue pill in my throat?).

    Am I the only one who feels that way?

    • echofoxtrot

      Europa,
      I think of it as the pain of loss of innocence.

    • echofoxtrot

      Europa,
      I remember hearing a more conservative woman commenting on Sarah Silverman offering “lesbian sex” to a rich man, to get him to donate $1,000,000 to Obama instead of Romney. Her comment was that “we women went from being adored to being whored”. True enough. BUT…..do you want to go back to adoring women? That would clearly be putting you back on the blue pill program.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

    Oh yeah I am really shat off.

    I mean I put up this incredible piece of artwork that quite frankly will resonate through unseen generations to come, and look at all the claps I get. None !

    Nobody can be bothered to write really long posts about it, there are no intense discussions about my extraordinary mind. Bloody silence everywhere ?

    I am in the shits now, and Manboobz or that Valenti gibbon here I come. You want my skills then you got them because nobody here wants me or will even put me way up on a fucking pedestal where I belong.

    I tell you it’s lonely way up here on top looking down at everybody, and nobody even stops for a moment to soothe me about that either come to think about it.

    Can I have my painting back now that everyone has had a FREE look ?

    • JFinn

      I didn’t know it was a painting. I just assumed it was the Lord. I already prayed to it twice.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

        Lol,

        Ok mate. I’ll not go over to that other side. I’ll be good.

  • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

    This article made me a little sad. Not in a condescending “I’m sorry for you” way, but more “my God what have we become as a society?”

    I’ve lived alone. I don’t like it. I can handle it, I don’t sob in my pillow every night pining for company, don’t feel I must have “that special someone to complete me.” But to have a partner in life who accepts you as you are, and to have children, these are wonderful things. The most painful thing about my divorce was not the financial loss, it was the separation from my children. Love for my children probably being the most pure love I’ve ever felt. And OK maybe every man doesn’t want it, but to those who do want it, it’s a keening pain to think “the danger is too great,” and yet the danger really is that great.

    The “nuclear family” model is a tradionalist fairy tale. Prior to the industrial revolution the family unit of mom+dad+kids against the world together–it was mostly an illusion of the 20th Century and Hollywood. Throughout history and much of the world today, extended families were always the norm. Sometimes I think the high rate of divorce isn’t just hypergamy, it’s also the fact that the stresses of being full-time breadwinner and full-time mom alone without extended family support are too much for many couples to take and the stresses begin to tear them apart.

    But a lot of us are natural pair-bonders; we don’t seek “control” we seek partnership. But we’ve created a social system were any man who engages in it is frequently putting his whole life and well-being into the hands of another.

    And what of future generations if intelligent decent blokes all just remove themselves from the gene pool? I shudder to think.

    I also know that if I were to become MGHOW, if I ever got seriously sick or injured or infirm through age, I’d probably just go ahead and put a bullet in my head. “Welp, that was an interesting life, but I’m sick now and probably not gonna get much better, see ya!” It makes the future look bleak.

    As a society we have to do better than this. If you want to be single and alone for all your life more power to you, but I hate the thought of that being the only safe option available. But I have to admit that it IS the only safe option, and that’s a shit deal.

    • echofoxtrot

      Agreed. Henry Makow has a great deal to say on the subject of recapturing traditional manhood, and the traditional man-woman bond. He went to the Phillipines to find his wife. His website is savethemales.ca or henrymakow.com.

  • lensman

    Excellent article. A few points of interest:

    1) Your observations on marriage are right on. As we say in my country, “The first step towards divorce is marriage.”

    2) I have a small daughter who is currently 5. She is relating to everybody, not only myself and her mom, not only her relatives, not only her friends, but also her dolls and her toys. She is giving them names, she is playing out scenarios, she is connecting with EVERYTHING. Observing her makes me think, that perhaps, just perhaps, the act of having sex without any commitment or obligations is not something that comes out naturally in girls.

    3) I have to point out that numerous sexual partners DO NOT equal a sexually liberated woman. Some women are just psychologically messed up and are using sex as substitute for something else.

    Perhaps I should explain myself further…

    Look, I am not against a woman having multiple sexual partners. But at some point any woman who is having multiple guys inside her vagina will have to ask this one question:

    “WHY am I fucking all those people?”

    If it’s because you genuinely enjoy the act of sexual contact with another person, and you are being responsible about it (i.e. you are using protection and you tell people upfront that you are not looking for a serious relationship) then you doing it for all the right reasons, and fuck everyone who tells you otherwise.

    If, however, you do this because daddy didn’t hug you enough, mommy beat you up, or whatever other childhood trauma you might have, and you want to feel close to someone (anyone!) then I am sorry, but what you are doing is wrong, you are hurting yourself as well as others, and you need to stop. ..

    …You need to get your head straight, before you start bending over.

  • Tawil

    This a visionary and wise article.

    I regularly meet women who want a monogamous relationship and I decline and choose not to engage intimately. Peter Pan has provided an alternative perspective here….. one that reminds me how indoctrinated I still am….

    He may have just heralded a new flower power revolution.

    PP @ “A woman who is in the habit of flaunting herself and behaving provocatively in public, is more often an imitation. She is sending out messages saying, I’m hot, I’m sexual, but usually not to obtain sex, but to obtain something else. Attention, money, drinks, etc, but not sex…. The sexually liberated and liberal women, is the woman that prostitutes seek to imitate. They are what the show ponies, the cock teasers, the users, the rinsers and most of the other nasties seek to appear to be, but are not. Beware of imitations.”

    That all reminded me of an instructive Greek myth. Aphrodite the goddess of love, sexual pleasures and beauty wore a beautiful golden girdle. Hera, the goddess of power, status and marriage asked if she could “borrow” Aphrodite’s girdle for a week to help her woo Zeus the King of the gods. By borrowing Aphrodite’s natural charms Hera imitated the sexy goddess and thereby seduced Zeus into marriage.

    PP @ “The long term, or rather permanent monogamy of the past is dead gentlemen… The good old days are not coming back, and they weren’t good for men anyway. What needs to happen is for men to claim the same freedom women have.”

    Totally agree… the spell of the past, and the bondage of traditional gender roles, has been shattered with sure and mighty strokes. There is no society anymore that once supported the traditional male and female compact. We are moving toward a new society, something previously unknown and we each have to find our own way in this unknown period. Thanks to Peter Pan for giving us some clues about where we might be headed.

    • http://thereluctantmysogynist.blogspot.ca/ limeywestlake

      A society that is inclusive of all sexualities, I hope. One that lets men have realistic self-determining options – one that is devoid of the inexorable hunt for pussy and the threat of sexual rejection. The days of the vagina as a golden calf have to end.

      • droobles

        That will only happen when women are looking more for sex than men, and I mean that in a more general sense.

        I say that because I guess women are looking for sex as much as men, but they look for sex like that with a specific portion of men, when men have a much broader search.

        And that is a great challenge, men in society today is too stuck in this herd mentality about sex.

        And we have the prisoner’s dilemma from game theory, unless a great enough number of men change their ways, the ones that don’t change will reap the “benefits” with the smaller competition.

        Of course, I say this because, as things are now, I am not expecting positive change on this to come from women as a group. From a theoric economical point of view there seems to not exist a reason to give up their power in this dynamic.

      • jack

        Of course men have to stop drooling over pussy. All the same, the law of supply and demand tells us pussy will always fetch a price, like it has throughout History and regardless of the type of Society. MGTOWs being able to go on indefinitely without sex looks good on paper but in practice it may just create more chances for opportunistic manginas (see “prisoner’s dilemma” in the comment just above).

        The solution is a Society where prostitution is not only legal but actually promoted. Prostitution is the ultimate form of wife-sharing. It is the ultimate collaboration between males. It is the very opposite of male-to-male rivalry. It is the multiplication of the loaves (the loaves are pussies).

        • droobles

          I don’t think prostitution should be promoted, but I agree it shouldn’t be illegal.

          Well, the collaboration between males and wife-sharing sounds good only in paper too. I mean, if these men are planning to start a family and all, if not then I guess I can only tell them to enjoy.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Daniel Martinez

    Oh my god!!!
    This post on 9gag is about The Men’s Movement and MGTOW!!! Its very interesting.

    http://9gag.com/gag/5048943

    Check it out when you have the time please. That site is for children and teenagers mostly, but they are comenting interesting things. The MRA message is flowing over the internet.

    • droobles

      Most comments I read were calling the guy a “pussy” or “friendzoned forever alone”.

      Most kids there are from the “modern generation” which means the accept much of the feminism zeitgeist. They are still young and might not know yet to where our society is heading.

      There were 2 exceptions, one guy was really trying to spread insight about the MRM and another one was the biggest mangina I have ever seen.

      unfortunately, the latter seemed to be gaining more ground.

      • Eye in the Sky

        Feminism is a monologue, not a dialogue.

        It demands three things from men, all of them unlimited in scope:

        1. Restitution for Patriarchy
        2. Constant Abasement
        3. Constant Appeasement

        The manginas/white knights (pawns) are the progeny of decades of Feminist hegemony. The solution is to reject Feminist scripture, which MGTOW and the MRM have done magnificently, though not without struggle and sacrifice.

      • MrStodern

        I think to some extent, when men come across a guy who’s not a slave to pussy, they feel it not just necessary but IMPERATIVE to stomp his self-esteem into the dirt, because when they look at such a man, they’re afraid. They see a man they can never be, because they’re so deeply enslaved, and it upsets them.

        You show me a man who announces his renouncement of relationships with women, and is assaulted with “forever alone” comments as a result, and I’ll show you a bunch of guys who are so pathetic that they’d rather die than go without pussy. MGTOW aren’t the lonely ones. The haters are.

    • MenDiscontinued

      These feminists/manginas posts are making me vomit, before clicking the close button.

  • keyster

    Marriage has become tyranny, with the female half being the de facto tyrant.

    MGHOW is great freedom, but you’ll realize it comes at a cost when you get older and have no family and limited friends. I don’t know what the answer is, but it’s not marriage either.

    I see friends who are recent grandparents and the joy they seem to get from their grandchildren makes me envious. Although it took a lot of pain from raising their own children to get there.

  • Strange

    Thanks Peter Pan for a great article and thanks also to samantha77 for a great post.

    I’m pretty much going the Peter Pan route myself, with a slight difference – I have a regular girlfriend (and she refers to me as her boyfriend). Although we’re not at any great distance from each other, we both have our own lives so usually only spend the weekends together and sometimes not the whole weekend or not every week.

    Because of this, I’m not monogamous and the girlfriend knows it. Whether she sees anyone else or not, I’ve no idea. She knows I use condoms and I know that she would insist on it with any other bloke.

    We don’t talk about it – we just enjoy our time together. Pretty early on I told her we wouldn’t be living together, getting married or having a family. This suits her too, at least at the moment, but she knows that if these things get to be important to her she should move on – I’m not ‘Mr Right’.

  • MrStodern

    You know as I think on all the points made by numerous people about where we need to head in terms of society, what kinds of changes need to be made, and what kinds of lives we choose to build for ourselves, I have to remind myself of something: None of this is going to fix everything.

    What I mean by that is, millions upon millions of MGTOW isn’t going to fix the legal system. If any changes are made for then better, they will be done in order to lure men back in, not because the people willing to screw us now will suddenly have a change of heart. Turning our back on society isn’t going to solve the root of the problem: People’s attitude towards men.

    Not even the first male birth control pill is going to do that, although it could help curb the population of unwanted children in the world, which in turn could lead to other positive changes, but that’s all in theory.

    I see only one solution, and that is time. As more men wake up, as more women leave the feminist movement (for the right reasons, that is), the better chance future generations have at NOT being indoctrinated, at NOT being conditioned to hold a level of hostility towards men. I can easily see the process taking as long as it took for feminists to fuck things up this bad.

    What really bothers me about all this is not how it affects me (feminism/misandry isn’t the reason I have issues developing any type of connection with a woman), but how it affects other men (and certain women).The men who actually want to raise a family, but can’t because the system likes to punish them for it. The men who are forced to live the life Peter Pan does, whether they like it or not. I don’t view it as hollow, but some men are going to, and there’s nothing wrong with that. To be a man isn’t to live one type of life or another. We shouldn’t even put so much stock in being a man (or a woman). We should strive to be better adults. All of us.

  • white demon

    I really don’t know what to say to this, but personally, like Mr Paul says that no one can really fulfill 100% of your sexual needs.

    Personally, I must say, I have lost most interest in having sex after been married for almost 3 years (yes, I’m a father of one) and I’m not complaining one bit. Of course it does happens rarely.

    I have other interest in life now which are far more interesting and/or takes priority than sex.

    Also, forgive me for been crude, if I do get a ‘sexual’ urge, my hand is a very good friend of mine! I feel it keeps me out of a lot of unnecessary trouble and/or frustration!

  • http://beijaflorbeyondthesunset.wordpress.com Rick Westlake

    The one person that will benefit from going MGHOW is the man himself. We can call it politically significant, we can wave it as a flag, but it’s not about changing Society, it’s about changing my own circumstances.

    By ‘Going My Own Way,’ I am removing myself from the gene-pool. I’m also removing myself from the risks that playing in the gene-pool has developed. The price is that I will live out my life alone; the benefit is that my life belongs to me, it’s not hostage to the whims and emotions and ‘fee-wings’ and hamsterbation of some tyrantess who convinced me to give myself up to her in matrimonial slavery.

    Peter Pan, my hat’s off to you for an excellent article. It would give me hope if I hadn’t renounced hope long ago.

    • Kimski

      To me being an MGHOW is about removing the possibility for some gold digging bloodsucker to lure me into a position, where she can take away my belongings, money and home.

      I’ve had enough of that already.
      I’m tired of starting over.

  • Stu

    I can vouch for this lifestyle. Most guys just don’t get it though and never will. Even if they try to live it, they just can’t get their head around what it takes. They either fall into this mode of being really sharkish and desperate. They put on some sort of phoney super sexual front and think they have to impress sluts by being hyper sexual, always sleazy, or they try to maintain ongoing relationships with women based on nothing but raunchy stuff.

    You have to treat your fuck buddies like your mates. Every phone call does not have to be phone sex, every meeting does not have to be a no holes barred fuck fest with a load for each, and one to spray around for good measure.

    I pretty much lived like Peter for many years. It was getting a bit ridiculous even for my standards though. My place had become smut central of Melbourne, with so many different women sleeping over, sometimes multiples, that any woman that got seen walking down my driveway, even just someone delivering something, was assumed by my neighbors to be a hardcore super slut of super human status.

    I had so many of them, that I had to start getting online to search for guys to help me keep them entertained. Not kidding lol. Kaz was one of my favorites. She finally managed to worm her way in somehow. Bit by bit over years. Got so used her being around so often I never even noticed her gradually moving in, reorganizing my life a bit at a time. I think I was laying in bed with her one day and casually asked her when she was going home, and she said, oh, I don’t know, whenever. It suddenly dawned on me, in the panic I rushed to the wardrobe, yes, just as I had suspected, three doors full of her shit, one for me. The terror hit, I was married again.

    Not that bad really. My fuck buddies are rationed I suppose you could say. Unreasonable bitch :) Let’s face it, all roads lead to hell. :)

    But you don’t have to make the same mistakes I made. :) Follow Peter’s advice and rock til you drop.

    Anyway, it’s not for everyone, but I can attest that these women are way safer than your boring, demanding mono girls, and a lot more fun for a lot less headache, even in a committed relationship.

    • Tam

      Rationing your fuck buddies lol. I suppose you could negotiate for an increase in rations. I vote for an increase in rations :)

  • Tam

    I heard a rumor that I was a case study on here. I must say I’m surprised that I haven’t been stoned to death by the moral majority I had assumed to populate men’s rights sites. :)

    More opened minded men here than one would have thought. Certainly a stark contrast to what has become the feminist view. I was sure most of you guys were very conservative in this area. Maybe the two men’s rights guys I know aren’t the only ones. I might have to do some more research when I get the time.

    Just looking at the names. I’ve heard of some of you guys. Dr F has some very questionable sexual fetishes I understand. Are those substitutes, or preferences? lol

    • Paul Elam

      Dr. F is questionable across the board. But we don’t hold that against him (or anything else we don’t want fondled) :)

      Thanks for dropping in Tam. It is true that a lot of pro feminist ideologues paint the MRM as a neoconservative group of fundamentalist ideologues. They can’t wrap their tiny little brains around the idea that we don’t ally with those people.

      While there was less negative reaction to this article than I anticipated (which I thought would come from men who had sworn off women altogether) I was not surprised to see a majority of agreement.

      This group is very open minded.

      • Kimski

        -Or beyond repair and the ability to be shocked anymore..

        :D

      • Tam

        This place is busy. Peter told me of this article yesterday and it wasn’t long after when I looked. I had to look for it because there were already newer articles in front of it.

        Yes I believe if this article was posted on a feminist site, or just about any site actually, it would receive many more hostile responses. In fact I don’t see any responses that I would regard as hostile.

        An interesting collection of articles you have here. I shall have to do some reading when I return from my four day trip I am currently on.

        @ Dr F LOL

        Bye for now

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

      G’day Tam.

      My barnyard dalliances are a preference and a substitute.

      A preference because I just so happen to actually love deeply my feathered clucky mates, and a substitute because I happen to love deeply my feathered clucky mates more than those phoney shielas in those phoney chicken suits.

      Oh yeah they pretend but I always see through them every time.

      A chicken with a zipper down its middle indeed!

      What are they ? Stupid or something to think that I can’t see through their disguise?

      P.S.
      Paul you said a mean thing. I want my chocs and flowers back and our dinner date with candles and bloody nice wine is off.

  • droobles

    Good news for the MGHOW, a different research on cancer might have found the definitive solution for men contraceptives.

    The study is being done in the USA by James Bradner, from the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, in Boston, it was published in the Cell scientific magazine.

  • SociallySilenced

    I disagree with most of the article. On the surface, the ideology is there, but the irony of a man going their own way and coming back to write an article glamorizing hookup culture and sex.

    But that’s fine and minor. Sex is still ingrained and fun. Why not?

    But this really ticks me off:
    “you have no right to expect a woman to make a commitment to you, while you shun commitment”

    I have no right? And YOU have the right to tell me I have no right to expect?

    I can assure you that two adults can negotiate monogamy. It’s not up to you to take that choice away IF I CHOOSE to do it.

    Plus, I have a busy schedule. There’s barely enough time to maintain something with one woman. I only need so much poon before sex becomes work and long hours of a porn actor.

    She did try to withhold sex ONCE in the last two years. She was coming over after I was too busy for a while and when I mentioned I’m looking forward to get down, she said she’s not sure if she wants to have sex when she comes over.

    My reply: “Let me know now if you don’t want to have sex so that I can take care of business myself before you come over. I find you sexy and I’m going to be humping your leg when you don’t want to have sex, which would put me in an awkward position.”

    Her reply after a shocked pause: “wow… what an awkward position to put me in. Don’t touch the heavy machinery (I love flattery! ) I’ll take care of everything when I’m there!”

    Me: “I didn’t put you into this position. You put yourself there when we agreed to date.”

    That’s one attempt to refuse sex in almost 3 years

    Groupsex is all well and good until you have to ask a question “why does it hurt when I pee?” and then discover that cefixime, doxycycline and azithromycin don’t help. Don’t ask me how I know this.

    • Paul Elam

      LOL. well. welcome to the site.

      For what it is worth, and I am pretty sure Peter Pan will address this himself, I think you are either making a mountain out of a mole hill, or you are here to defend a double standard.

      We tell people all the time that they have no right to double standards, given all of them we have to live with. And I suppose in the strictest, most reductionistic terms, you are right. People are free to expect whatever they want to. I have known more than my share of women that would agree with you.

      I think the general idea is that double standards are a pretty narcissistic and dysfunctional arrangement for relationships of pretty much every kind, unless the self respect of one of the two is expendable.

      Been down that road, too. No thanks.

      • SociallySilenced

        “I think you are either making a mountain out of a mole hill, or you are here to defend a double standard.”

        I’m a moral universalist, so double standards are out and you’re right, I’m making a mountain but only for the sake of argument.

        Thanks for welcome :)

    • Peter Pan

      I have been involved in group sex for 11 years. During that time I’ve lost count of how many couples I have been involved with for threesomes. Same with one on one fuck buddies. I have attended many swingers parties, and even been involved in orgies and gangbangs.

      During that time I have encountered a few people who have told me straight up that they are carrying the herpes virus. This is just the genital version of cold sores. I also knew one guy that developed genital warts. The funny thing is that he had been having sex with his wife without condoms for quite a while before they discovered the very small, at that time, warts. She just had the attitude of, oh well, no use closing the gate after the horse has bolted, and they continued to have unprotected sex the entire time. She never contracted genital warts. They can’t possibly be as contagious as we are lead to believe, and I personally believe they are no more contagious than run of the mill planter warts or any other sort of warts.

      He treated himself and his wife also treated him, with liquid nitrogen to freeze the warts off. New ones kept popping up and they froze them off as they seen them when they were still very small. Close inspection every week kept showing up very small new warts for about six months then they just stopped. Your body eventually eradicates the virus that causes the warts. After he had no new warts for about six months they resumed their lifestyle.

      They worked out some time later that him contracting genital warts was linked to his use of hair remover to remove hair from his genital region before attending a swingers party. Apparently the hair remover leaves the skin damaged microscopically and this allows the skin to be infected easily.

      I myself have never had anything. Neither has Tam.

      I’ve had people who go hang gliding and skydiving warn me of the terrible terrible risks I am taking lol. If you want something to be completely safe with no chance of having any ill consequences before you engage in it, then you aren’t going to do much in your life. Many of the things you do probably carry far greater risks of injury, disease and death than swinging.

      I’m not suggesting that everyone should rush out and start having orgies and playing as hard as I have in the past. What I am saying is that adherence to complete monogamy is nearly impossible except in the short term now days. I’ve known many couples that just have a couple of other couples they play with, or a guy or woman they entertain now and then. They build intimate relationships with a few people that last many many years. I’ve been involved with Tam for nearly 11 years, and she’s one of the people I’ve explored every avenue of sensual and erotic pleasure and extreme sex with. I have some couple friends I’ve had for years. I am still close friends with some couples who used to swing, but have retired, and I remain affectionate friends with.

      You show me a guy who can basically share that which men are programmed to compete for, and I’ll show you a guy that has transcended that which makes him hostile to his brothers. You show me a woman that can engage in sex with a few guys at once while laughing and enjoying them, and I will show you a woman who has no fear or dislike of men.

      I’ve heard someone mention competition between men, and jealousy, insecurity etc. Those things are removed. What do you think happens when I spend a Saturday night with one of my couple friends. Do you imagine that us guys use her for a race track and see who the best man is? Do you imagine we are competing for number one spot? Do you imagine we are trying to outdo each other in any way? Do you think he is jealous of me? If any of these things were true, I wouldn’t even be there.

      The fact is, it’s the most co-operative thing I have ever seen between men. And don’t imagine that it’s all just for her erotic stimulation and physical pleasure. It’s true, it’s like a gift to her and it’s so erotic and arousing for her that it fires up her lust for weeks after. He get’s a lot of benefit from it. In fact he’ll say to me out of the blue while we are talking on the phone sometimes, “you’ll have to put the word on Donna next time your over, she needs a top up” I never actually put the word on her. She has her own language that I’ve learnt. When I go for dinner, and she serves strawberries with melted chocolate for desert, I know I’m staying the night. She’s done it so many times I know what it means, and she’ll put the bowl down in front of me at the table and smirk. He’ll usually laugh and say, “your favorite desert Pete.”

      These are truly beautiful friendships. And yes, I play with them in foursomes with other women I bring sometimes. If I have some extra risk of contracting an std from my lifestyle, it’s worth every bit of it.

    • Peter Pan

      If you think monogamy isn’t a commitment, fair enough. And if it is a commitment, which I believe it is, then my statement is true. Word it this way than. You have no right to expect monogamy from a woman while you shun monogamy. My statement is true anyway. The word “expect” makes it true. You can seek anything you want, but others do not have to give it to you.

      You may say you have a right to do anything you like, but only if you can get someone to agree to those terms.

      I don’t remove anyone’s choices, they do that just fine all by themselves. My intention is to expand peoples range of choices.

      • SociallySilenced

        Sweet. Then we agree and the rest is semantics which would be silly of me to keep mulling over.

  • Becky

    So well put, Peter Pan!
    As for me, I’ve been married for 20 years, have a teenage son, and our marriage has become open. I may be right or I may be wrong, but I have a vision of the future of this being more common (mated but sharing), and group living situations. Don’t know how often this works, because in my case the fact that my husband and I are best of friends is key.
    An interesting book that explores the concept that monogamy is at odds with how human nature evolved is “Sex at Dawn” by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha.
    The sexual shaming (by our feminist media) of men who wander is really disgusting. A prominent example is the way Tiger Woods was dragged through the mud a couple of years ago. A waste of valuable news space.
    Off topic: Can someone please help me, I recently joined this site and my web expertise is scant. For one, I put profile and bio info on the page when I joined and have been trying to access other members’, but don’t know how. Does this mean you can’t access mine either? Also, how do I add a picture instead of this grey silhouette?

    • Peter Pan

      Thank you Becky. I believe the women like you, are the future, not some return to times of old. I advocate for men to refuse committed relationships because it doesn’t matter what agreement you have between yourselves, the state interferes and supports anything the woman wants in the case of the dissolution of that relationship.

      I believe nobody should be compelled to provide any of their assets or resources to another, regardless of what your relationship is, sexual or otherwise, living together or otherwise. These things are personal and should not be interfered with by the state. The only way will get the state out of our bedrooms and personal relationships is to boycott all arrangements where they have license to interfere and tell women why we are doing it.

      As you can see, the MRM is very friendly towards women like yourself. The feminists are not. I hope many women from the swinging community and alternative lifestyle community wake up and realize that feminism is actually the anti free love movement, the anti-sex movement. The MRM supports peoples personal freedom in all areas, including sexuality.

      Bring friends.

  • Gamer

    Wow!!!!!!!!!! An MRA who actually gets it? Could it be? This is almost everything us PUAs have been saying for decades!

    This was such a pleasure to read from beginning to end. Fuck the gender based economy. Women need to take care of themselves, which is the only way to awaken their true sexual interests instead of those interests being subverted by the need for food.

    Indeed, so called “sluts,” or as we PUAs call them, “freaks” are the only women in the world who believe in a straight up gender neutral economy which allows them to humanize their relationships with men instead of thinking of their bank accounts.

    I have only one thing I must disagree with you on, Peter Pan. The “no children” thing is unwarrented because we must breed and because it’s hard for me to believe that you wouldn’t trust a woman like Tam to have your children without financially ass raping you in court. After all, these types of women actually can be trusted because they are our true friends. Isn’t that your thesis? So why not have a child with one of them?

    To say that you’d be crazy to have children without marriage, living together, or monogamy is wrong. You can have children without any of the three. It’s called an open relationship. The exact step by step process of persuading a woman to say yes to one requires an entire ebook, and I just happen to have one I highly recommend. I won’t spam this site, so, Peter Pan, if you’re interested (for just 37 dollars) let me know.

    • Becky

      I agree with your point about having children, Gamer. People need to reproduce, especially those intelligent enough to see the system for what it is. If it is left only to clueless or foolish “breeders”, what kind of favor does that do to the gene pool (ever watch “Idiocracy”?)

    • Peter Pan

      I sort of agree with the children thing. I’m not having any more, too old to go down that road again, so is Tam. You have to realize that it is the same with living together. You can have any deal you want, but the state will just enforce it’s version.

      I think that ideally, children should be raised by two biological parents living under the same roof. I just happen to believe that the arrangement will fail, unless the state gets out of the equation, and of course, monogamy is thrown in the bin. But it’s your choice, live as you like, that is the important thing. You should be able to live as you like in your personal life without the state interfering and calling the shots.

      How do we get to that stage? We deny woman all of these things until they overturn the laws that they enacted and supported. Than we demand equal respect for men, and women who don’t want those sort of relationships anyway. In fact, I encourage men, and women, not to be monogamous. I encourage women especially to learn to see sex differently, and give it away. If you want to be a prostitute, do it properly and put a red light and sign up.

  • Gamer

    Oh, and one more thing: The book I recommend deals with the topic of STD prevention, unwanted children prevention, how to raise children in an open relationship, and how to keep all financial assets seperate at all times.

  • Bewildered

    ” Feminists made me change. They made me who I am now, as surely as if they molded me and worked me with their own hands into my current form. So would I return to my old self if things were changed tomorrow? Nope, that toothpaste is not going back in the tube for me.

    I discovered far too many women who like me just the way I am for me to give the slightest fuck about the others. For the women out there who are horrified at the existence of growing numbers of men like me, I suggest you reconsider your support of feminism, and the untenable nature of marriage and committed relationships for men, as rendered by feminist governance and legislation. You may have nothing but men like me to choose from in the future unless you reverse these trends.”

    Karma is a big,big,…. bitch ! Desperate situations call for desperate measures I guess.I think feminists would be shit scared of people like Peter Pan.
    It’s not so much that there are no real nice women but that they like the others are immersed in a culture that obsesses about eternal adolescence,full of unrealistic expectations. So perforce their niceness is corrupted by a manufactured unhappiness,which then spoils whatever chances there are for a decent human relationship.
    Unbridled hedonism is not sustainable because nature abhors extremes.
    Anyway this is one of the ways in which feminism is going to hurt women badly because not everyone can be a ‘slut’.

  • Peculiar

    It’d be nice if the perpetual threat of being taken to the cleaners by women when relationships end could be gotten rid of. I’d like to actually have a family to call my own someday, but I’ve seen far too many people get the shaft to set aside my concerns. To this day, the only thing that comes to mind is a legal agreement signed by both parties each with separate legal council which spells out terms by which all assets are kept separate. What’s mine is mine. What’s yours is yours. If there are ever kids, I have no problem with contributing an equal share (by absolute value, not percentage) to their care, and likely would do more voluntarily though not obligatorily because I naturally would want the best in life for my own offspring, but I would like to stipulate that in no way should any financial assets associated with my providing of child support be under the direction of the mother. In more concrete terms, I’ll gladly put clothes on their back and put them in piano lessons, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to be stuck giving a cheque to their mother on the premise that she make payments towards those same things. These sorts of arrangements have a horrible way of turning into a bidding war that the children learn to play to their advantage. Sadly, the moment you stick a legal document like this in front of someone, they quickly pack up shop and run to the next idiot willing to buy them shiny things. Not a universal thing, but it has happened often enough that I regard it as a fair generalization.