jules_winnfield_124

Just a Quick Note About Male Space

The following is part of a comment recently left on this website by one of the recent newbies that showed up to defend Nacho Vidal’s honor after I did an article about his shutting down MGTOW Forums (which is miraculously back up, btw).

Male spaces need to be male spaces, without “female allies” cuntsplaining to us what is “constructive” or “useful” dialogue.

That just hijacks our independence and women end up dictating “our” agenda, like they already have for the last million years.

OK, to set everyone’s mind at ease, I only mentioned Nacho because it was necessary to context. I am not going there again.

What I do want to talk about for a moment is the concept of “male space,” which is a subject of some importance, as you might imagine, on a website bearing the name A Voice for Men.

Let me state that I emphatically endorse and support whatever any group of men want to call “male space.” I may not agree with everything they say, or even any of it. But the right to congregate free of any female participation? Of course, and without caveat.

At the same time I want to call your attention to the second paragraph of the quote from the newbie and tell you that I just had to laugh. And I have to ask, what sort of “independence” is so frail that it can be hijacked, and what sort of man going “his own way” is so weak that he allows women to dictate anything to him?

Courts and laws are one thing, but on a personal level, nobody takes shit you don’t give them.

Seriously, as someone who has done a fair amount of spelunking into the depths of male space; who has spent hours and hours meeting and talking with other men outside of the nearest woman’s voice or earshot, it leaves me with an observation that I think is inescapable.

If you are afraid of speaking your mind, it is your own fault. If your spine is made of such absurdly pliant material that you fear being coopted by the hint of perfume or the gentle nape of a woman’s neck, then perhaps you really are best to stay only in the company of men given to such weakness and fear.

Like I said, I think men deserve whatever space they want to take. If they prefer the company of men, you will not hear me bitch about it. Go for it, and don’t look back, it is no one’s business but yours.

But to me, “the space you take,” is really the operative term.

Please allow me for a moment to channel, as ludicrous as it is, one of my all-time favorite actors, Samuel L. Jackson, who in my opinion was never in better form than he was as the character Jules Winnfield in the movie Pulp Fiction.

I imagine what Winnfield would have to say about our newbies’ idea of male space, and I imagine it would be something like this.

“Motherfucker, what the fuck do you mean, “space?” Do I motherfucking look like anyone is going to take my motherfucking space, motherfucker? Just step on up here and see if you can take any of my motherfucking space!”

And that, in the end, is the point. At least according to me and Jules. Space is in your head. It is in your own mind and your own heart. It is in your own way of life and hinges entirely on your own spine.

Discussions among men are great. I love them. But I also live in a real world full of all kinds of people, men and women alike, who would love nothing more than to commandeer my thoughts and actions; who would like me to be of use to them and their agenda in one way or another. And I don’t have an internet cocoon where I can, or even want to, escape it. I am perfectly capable of standing my ground.

You have the space you take.

Take it, motherfucker.

About Paul Elam

Paul Elam is the founder and publisher of A Voice for Men, the founder of A Voice for Men Radio, the AVfM YouTube Channel, and appears weekly on AVFM Intelligence Report, Going Mental with Dr. Tara Palmatier and monthly on MANstream Media with Warren Farrell and Tom Golden.

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  • http://victorzen.wordpress.com/ Victor Zen (Sage Gerard)

    The intellectual motive is everything. Seeking like-minded individuals is different than seeking people who will never criticize you.

    When I was starting KSU Men, I briefly played with the idea of calling it a “male safe space” and decided against it. There is nothing good about telling people of a demographic or subculture that they don’t ever have to experience disagreement. KSUM meetings will cover hardcore shit, so I’m not going to sit here and pretend that minds won’t get fucked sometimes.

    In my mind, great male “safe spaces” include domestic violence shelters. You know, actual safe spaces of the Earl Silverman variety, not circle jerks.

  • http://funkymunkyluvn.wordpress.com/ Jason Gregory

    Samuel L. Jackson.

    • Kimski

      What??

      • http://funkymunkyluvn.wordpress.com/ Jason Gregory

        SLJ is the opposite of every “uptalking” valley-girl male feminist. Instead of ending every sentence with a question mark, SLJ ends every sentence with an exclamation mark! Hell, he even ends questions with exclamation marks.

        http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131204130914.htm

  • B.R. Merrick

    I’ve always thought of this website as an intellectual lockerroom where we’re free to drop our pants. It doesn’t matter to me that there’s no sign saying “No Girls Allowed.” Any women here will have to be grown-up enough to deal with the male spaceness of it all.

    • Partridge

      ‘Any women here will have to be grown-up enough to deal with the male spaceness of it all.’

      And they are, God love ‘em.

      But I don’t necessarily regard this as a male space, nor does it have to be. Because this is not really about men v women. It’s about right v wrong, truth v lies, justice v injustice, democracy v totalitarianism. It’s both men and women joining together to oppose one of the biggest threats to freedom, true equality, and civilisation in our time.

      I love my solitude. I treasure those times when I can lock out the world and relax alone in contemplation, or walk the hills away from the madding crowd, at one with nature and the infinite and eternal. But I also appreciate the company of people, men and women, with whom I may not always agree, and who like myself are not always perfect, but who are an essential part of what makes me human. I love you all (and, dare I say, especially the women)!!

  • tallwheel

    MGTOW Forums appears to be back up only for archive purposes. I don’t think users will be allowed to post there again. Replacement forums have already been pretty firmly established anyway.

    • http://gynocentrism.com/2013/07/14/about/ Peter Wright (Tawil)

      I cant imagine it ever recovering as a talk space after a stunt like that. There’s little chance of Nachos rebuilding any respect, which is needed to keep a forum like that humming. If you care to watch the stats of MGTOWforums I’ll put money on an exodus and diminishing Alexa rank with each passing month.

  • http://pinterest.com/zetapersei/male-privilege/ Perseus

    Well said. Though it would be ironically unwise (foolish?) to underestimate the innate dynamic of female influence, its subtleties, complexities, sophistication and power- given where we have come from, where we are, and what we claim to be with such vigor. Particularly the slow patient creep with which it discreetly proceeds. The price of freedom is constant vigilance- nowhere is this more true than with males in the context of females. In fact, this can be understood to be a bedrock element of true masculinity. If the ancients passed on one hard-wrought lesson, one distinct and glaring message throughout the millenia that they are effectively begging us to hear and heed, and which could hardly be more abundantly confirmed by our boundless observation, is it not that trust of the female/feminine will be your unequivocal demise? How can we fail to integrate this evidentiary reality? …For the PC hatespeech police, all men are rapists, teach men and boys not to rape.

    • JinnBottle

      ^ This (Perseus).

      Our ancestors carving their ritual spaces at heights and difficulties in mountains that no pregnant person could access, who later built smoking-rooms and men’s clubs and men’s bars – absolutely, they were wise.

      However, the times they changed. Even since a decade ago, when I still would have advocated for all-men spaces. Now the net is the medium, and the purpose and context for sites like this *have* to be more or less restricted to social activism. A man shows weakness on the net at his peril.

      But as for all-male, in-the-flesh gatherings – I’m very sorry to say they’re gone – until further notice, at the very least. It’s too difficult now finding enough men to constitute a “gathering” a “male space” who would also be men you could trust. The creeping, subtle peril of Feminism you spoke of, still exists, all right, more than ever: It’s just that nowadays, while the inclusion of women still guarantees a certain amount of feminization, Feminism creeping in disguised as a male is almost as likely.

  • D.D.Harper

    The space I stand in is mine…call it male space, call it my space it makes no difference.

  • upheaval

    Love the spirit of this article!

    On a related note, I always cringe when I hear men (other than those who have been assaulted by their partners) ask for ‘safe spaces’. In my mind, the phrase is associated with images of perpetual victimhood and a desire to retreat from battle.

    I guess I’m being idealistic, but I don’t want men to cower and beg for ‘safe spaces’ in a hostile & misandric world.

    I want men to speak out against their mistreatment in the open, forcing the enitre planet to be a safe space for them in the process.

    We’re a long way from that goal being realised however.

  • seiya

    I call bullshit on this.
    Personal space is personal space and can be defended and shaped by the person in question.
    A place on the net where a hurt or destroyed man can speak out his mind without any risk of moderation, that is censorship of his anger – is not a personal space defended with personal attitude, it’s an agora carefully cleared of women for a reason.
    You might be as bitter about MGTOW fora being outside AVFM and the fact AVFM is far from enough for prospective MGTOWs, but please don’t go full feminist because of that. Never go full feminist, whatever the cause.

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      I don’t think you understood the article.

    • http://gynocentrism.com/2013/07/14/about/ Peter Wright (Tawil)

      @seiya says: “You might be as bitter about MGTOW fora being outside AVFM and the fact AVFM is far from enough for prospective MGTOWs…”

      He he, you can try to mentally separate MGTOW from the AVfM repertoire, but you can’t separate it in reality.

      I think of AVfM as MGTOW+

      It is MGTOW self-determination in it’s totality, and more.

      MGTOW is merely one aspect, albeit a highly important one, in the MHRM repertoire.

      • tallwheel

        That sounds eerily similar to RME’s proposed “MRA+”.

      • Astrokid

        Dont even go anywhere near ‘+’. After seeing Atheism+ and to a much lesser extent RockingMrE’s MRA+, many of us have developed a phobia for ‘+’. LOL
        MGTOW is good enough.

  • http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com Robert St. Estephe

    Amen.

  • Fredrik

    The difference between a female safe space and a male safe space is that the former protects you from hearing what you don’t want to hear, and the latter protects you to say what you want to say.

  • Dan T

    Why it that women are so insecure that they can’t stand the idea of men having time on their own? You can’t take a shit without some woman wanting an invitation.

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      I can take a shit without giving a damn if a woman wants an invitation or not. What a woman wants is one thing. What I even bother to acknowledge is another.

      That is the point to me. Sorry, but it sounds like whatever women think or feel gets your instant attention, even if it is to just be bothered by it.

      • Dan T

        It’s one thing not to give a damn in your personal life, but unfortunately a lot of men, myself included, have to put up with it in the workplace or else find ourselves out of a job.

        Enjoyed the article. I appreciate what you’re saying about men deserving whatever space they want to take-no disagreement there. The question for me is how best to take it when the consequences of doing so can potentially leave you unemployed and disenfranchised.

        • antivenomist

          Well said again, Dan.

        • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

          Sigh; Like I said, and I thought clearly, in the article, I am separating legal matters (which definitely impact the workplace) from personal social existence.

          Don’t know how to make it clearer.

          • Dan T

            Fair enough. I only saw one line in the article that reflected that; “Courts and laws are one thing, but on a personal level, nobody takes shit you don’t give them”, so I thought I’d remark a bit more on that, that’s all. Maybe that side of things is more obvious to you guys; what can I say, I’m new to this!

      • antivenomist

        So let’s pretend, in our heads, that there’s no problem, no problem at all. Guess we can all go home now.

  • earth one

    For me it’s pretty simple: I am a man, and male space is simply space where I have no need to defend, or explain, or apologize for that fact. I can reasonably expect that the others in this space share many things in common with me. The women on AVFM have been very good in that regard, and they deserve a lot of credit.

    That said, outside of this forum, I am always conscious of the ‘space’ I am in at any given time. Outside of this forum, there are many ‘spaces’ that are essentially gender battlegrounds where any time gender-related issues are discussed, anti-male hostility is rampant. That hostility is primarily the hostility of women, in my experience. (Blatant examples include man-bashing in comments forums on Huffington Post, etc.)

    Men should have the right, without question, to create whatever space they wish, in which to ‘be men’. And to exclude women, if they choose, just as women should have the same right to do so, and exclude men.

    To me, the crux is that men have to realize that they have every right to this space, and many don’t.

  • antivenomist

    “Why it that women are so insecure that they can’t stand the idea of men having time on their own? You can’t take a shit without some woman wanting an invitation.”

    Take it, motherfucker.

    • Dan T

      Touche. ;)

  • MGTOW-man

    It seems to me that from what I hear coming from those who want male spaces is that they want women to stop WANTING to barge in on them—and getting away with it too. Sure any male can make the space they take up their own—what you said is very true— but this approach says nothing about why so many women WANT to barge in on males.

    I believe that has merit. From locker rooms to so many other areas of life, too many women want to barge in? Why?

    Not an expert here and do not want to be, but is there a deflection here? Those worried about male spaces are really just asking women to not WANT to barge in with just about every single thing males have. If that is the question then instead of expecting women to stifle, telling males it is their problem, avoids the issue. Their quest is for women to stop, NOT for men to ignore them and make it their own space anyway.

    IOW, tell women, not men.

    As for this site, I am glad there are women here and have said so several times over the years. So, please do not confuse my being the devils advocate as my trying to exclude women from this site. Feminist women? Sure, since they will undermine, are wrong as mud, are too olivious to “get it”, are feelings-dominated,. and will waste our time, But the women who love us and want to help us…who have the capacity to think outside of themselves? Even if they are wanting to nose in and help run it, they are helping us and we owe them gratitude for them stepping outside the box that most women do not have the courage or the smarts to do.

    Other places..the potentially male-only spaces, the question is not how can men cope but how can women stop.

    Personally, I do not care…in the context that this male-space issue arose here. But with my own initiatives with things outside of this sphere directly, I ask the same question—the one NOT asking men to cope better.

  • antivenomist

    Well, I hope there’s not too much space in our heads…

    Male spaces? Plenty. They’re called prisons. The front lines.

    Safe male spaces? Also plenty. They’re called graves.

    The womb? No. Abortion. Fetal alcohol syndrome. Pollutants. Meds. Hair dye toxins. Smoking, etc.

    The hospital where and IF you are born? No. Circumcision.

    School? No. Attitudes and regulations — mandated and otherwise.

    The office or workplace? No. See above.

    The pub? No. False rape allegations, impaired consent issues, violence and proxy violence, etc.

    Home, at least? No. DV police mandates, VAWA, Children’s Aid, Divorce Court, the Nazarians and Sheehys of this world, etc.

    But, personally, I think the “safe” in male space should be tossed cuz it does sound kinda pussy.

  • MGTOW-man

    You have made a very interesting comment for the most part. I think you have hit upon something big. Sometimes things are so big that they “disappear”. The way you have put this, things that we already know but that you have shown reflecting by a different tint of light, is remarkable.

    I believe if you would take this comment, refine it a little, add just the very few final touches, make it even more irresistible…this passage could potentially be very informative. It could be the one that gets through to them, makes them understand, turns the tide…even if it only starts those processes.

    This comment shows the lives that we men have now…now that men have given-in against their better judgment for their species, let women have their way…as always, in fashion, since men have a problem telling women “no”.

    The difference here is that you have put it in a way that is easy for people to read, to get it, to stay with the story, to care more…to see our pain.

    Too many times we, as writers, want to make things grandiose, exemplary in syntax and conciseness, and in the process forget about good ole “lowly” communication. Being less really can be more… but not in the sense that the unaware are taking as the standard…what they think is the only way to look at less v. more.

    Go back and read your comment again. If done right, this is the simple version (for “dummies”…but honestly, not everyone can read on a 12th grade level, so why not reach a bit farther?) that just might get and keep the attention of people we never thought possible.

    A simple collection of things that people will read and thus, BE ABLE to read…and more importantly be able to relate to—both men and women on behalf of men.

    I also think with just a bit of expanding, the message could be complete with a coupling of what this thread is about: male spaces. Male spaces are the test. This test is to measure mens capacity to tell women “NO”

    Just how bad do men want to win against this intrusive thing that is permeating all of existence? A lot, just a little, or somewhere in between—that “in between” being whatever takes feminists down a notch or two but still lets men have and try to keep pleased the women in their PERSONAL lives?

    It is a measure of a woman’s intentions too, in the way of intrusiveness and attempts to control, both on a micro and macro scale, if she can and will allow a man his space(s) and do so without any grievance, mockery, or retaliation…nothing but love for how men naturally exist.

    This, my friend is the dividing line. That line is very faint but strong in purpose. I have been saying for years and years that not until men can look the very women they know and LOVE in their eyes (wives, mothers, girlfriends, sisters, neighbors, prospects, customers, daughters, aunts, friends…) and say “no” and “hell no” if needed, do they stand a chance at winning against feminism. They will always be just a woman away from completion of this concept, this purpose.

    Does he let her cause him to move on his principle? How much does he mean it when he says feminism is bad, that the changes it has brought to our species unnaturally and that are toxic to our species as well as its humanity have been horrible and that we can’t allow this any longer… regardless? (Just “HOW REGARDLESS” are men willing to go to save themselves, save mankind?)

    In short, CAN men tell women “NO”…and that fine line is much closer to home and heart than apparently most men are comfortable with knowing. When a man says it is his space, that is exactly what he has to mean. She MUST stay out, not want in, understand, go away, and support him in spirit and love…until and if he needs otherwise. This is the fine line because the question about male spaces is not how can men cope better but how can women accept being told “NO”.

    How are men going to be able to tell them? Don’t tell them at all and make up some other path (compromise their principles, their substance? That should be the last thing on a male’s mind, honestly)!

    Men will have to look straight through the tears and “hurt” in women when women get told NO. Is saving our species worth it?

    This is our dilemma.

    …And if this response of mine were a test of conciseness…being graded…trying to say effectively about our dilemma, but only in a few paragraphs, I think I should get a high score.

    You? Isn’t saying “no” what it boils down to?

    If you are not in agreement with me, do not want to work on this concept, will you allow me to take your words here and make them my own so that I can illustrate to the men who are still clinging to women the wrong way, that it is really all very simple?

    …else what are we doing here? Saying “no” only up to the point of “losing” the women we love? Hummmm.

    If we are going to tell women “no” on a macro scale, then why not on the micro? How are we going to win if we don’t?

    Do women love us or do they want to punish and control us? The degree in which we say no to them is the same place at which fighting feminism stops at the door.

    Then why are we here?

    On a macro scale men like us are gearing up to tell women “no” here and “no” there, and “no” about this and about that, but are they stopping short of telling them “no” on ALL the things that women, amidst their own confusion, are messing up? The very thing that can stop the madness many are now having to call normal is the same very thing that men won’t do.

    Even when requests are made for male spaces, an alternative is offered for the man to man-up in yet another way…to learn to cope better with intrusions, that WHAT?…that’s right!…refuses to tell women NO.

    Not about this site. Please read my comment above yours for more insight. But this IS about our fight with feminism both on a macro and micro scale and relates to just how badly do we want to stop runaway feminism.

    It is also why MGTOW is the best chance at stopping the selfishness…for we MGTOW men can, do and always will tell women a huge resounding NO in whatever way we need to and in which it is not difficult for us to do. This is why MGTOW is sooooooooo hated…by women, feminists, chivalrous men, and even some MHRA’s.

    Men against women? Well, women are against men. Keep it in perspective.

  • antivenomist

    Take it, motherfucker.

  • antivenomist

    But before you do, take note:

    This is the comments section last I checked. Not the after-school essay-writing club. But…it…CAN BE. See how it works?
    Both ways. Let’s get started.

    “Too many times we, as writers, want to make things grandiose, exemplary in syntax and conciseness”

    Yes, far, far too many times.

    And grandiose? Check.

    “…And if this response of mine were a test of conciseness…being graded…”

    It wasn’t, but because of all the patronizing remarks and inflated self-delight AND since you insisted, it now is. I don’t think giving yourself great grades is the path to excellence, or respect. A man doesn’t stand on another and believe himself taller. But, hey, what do I know? I’m unsophisticated.

    “trying to say effectively about our dilemma,”

    Trying to say effectively about our dilemma… well, do you mean speak or write? Where’s that exemplary syntax you boast of, son?

    “but only in a few paragraphs,”

    28 paragraphs. C’mon. 28 fucking paragraphs!

    “I think I should get a high score.”

    Oh, let’s be realistic. You see, I remember a time long ago when compliments were given to and by others – when they actually had value.

    “Go back and read your comment again. If done right, this is the simple version (for “dummies”…but honestly, not everyone can read on a 12th grade level, so why not reach a bit farther”

    Even the version for dummies would use “further.” But again, I’m just a simple man. Momma told me — when I was young.

    I’m just playing, bro. I agree with much of what you say despite the pompous, convoluted prose. Have at, again, if you must. But if you plan to criticize and patronize me, just have your own shit in order first.

  • antivenomist

    Tra la la. Hmm, a hornets’ nest! What to do, what to do…

    I feel like Johnny Knoxville right before a great big, undeniably bad idea. But, shit, I gotta say it since I don’t skate and I am here, after all. So be it.

    Paul, you continue to do so very much for men and boys and I’m not forgetting that. I actively support this site and of course your right to run it how you see fit, and I am grateful for ALL of its contributors (male and otherwise). AVFM rocks.

    That said, however, I find this particular piece disturbing and a strange way to “emphatically endorse and support” the topic of “men’s space” and I do not subscribe to this diatribe. (I know, there’s the door, fine, but first let me finish.)

    The subject doesn’t merit it, IMO. And I just don’t think the piece makes much sense, really.

    The male-shaming language you used in response to this is excessive. Is it reactionary? Why is this necessary? Is this NOT a caveat? Is this tactic not displayed and attacked when seen used anywhere else? I don’t see the need for it here. But maybe there’s a history behind it that I’m not completely appreciating…

    Again, I think the female contributors to this site are terrific, but have men’s spaces NOT been and continue to be taken OVER? Quite literally?

    Is this fear? Yes – healthy fear. Based on history and present reality.

    I don’t know what else the poster wrote, but after all that’s happened and continues to happen, i.e., why we’re here, how can you blame someone for feeling the way the poster does and for raising that particular caveat himself?

    It doesn’t make him, me or anyone else weak or less of a man to find solace in a male-only space. To be fed up and to want to take a break from the games, tensions and bullshit the other sex brings to the table.

    AVFM is just that – a voice for men. It’s not called THE Male Safe Space. Thank god. But male space means male space. Where’s the problem? Nothing need be interjected into it otherwise. Again. Nothing need be interjected into it otherwise. Short of creating more strawmen about not being man enough to speak your mind, etc., WHY do this? There’s no connection.

    And I have the spine to say so, and to ask this to know exactly whom and what I’m supporting with respect to Paul and the entire team.

    • Bombay

      “AVFM is just that – a voice for men. It’s not called THE Male Safe Space. Thank god. But male space means male space. Where’s the problem? Nothing need be interjected into it otherwise. Again. Nothing need be interjected into it otherwise. Short of creating more strawmen about not being man enough to speak your mind, etc., WHY do this? There’s no connection.”

      At first it seemed like Paul’s message is man-up gender shaming, but upon close inspection it is not there. Nothing about standing up for yourself written above is associated with maleness. Perhaps the man-up attitude is so ingrained in many of us that any statement addressing standing up for one’s self is perceived as gender shaming even when not delivered as such.

      Owning your space is good advice for everyone and Paul’s advice shows no association with manning up or gender shaming.

  • antivenomist

    I would like to move on to more positive things; however, Bombay has challenged my perception. So let’s challenge it.

    “At first it seemed like Paul’s message is man-up gender shaming, but upon close inspection it is not there.”

    Try to say that with a straight face, Inspector Bombay.

    I didn’t think I would have to itemize nor did I want to, but:

    “At first it seemed like Paul’s message is man-up gender shaming, but upon close inspection it is not there. Nothing about standing up for yourself written above is associated with maleness.”

    First of all, this is AVFM, so it is associated with maleness.

    Furthermore, as Paul states, his “inescapable” observation about the topic is based on his experience “as someone who has done a fair amount of spelunking into the depths of male space; who has spent hours and hours meeting and talking with other men outside of the nearest woman’s voice or earshot. …”

    This:
    “But the right to congregate free of any female participation? Of course, and without caveat.”

    Then:
    “At the same time I want to call your attention to the second paragraph of the quote from the newbie and tell you that I just had to laugh. And I have to ask, what sort of “independence” is so frail that it can be hijacked, and what sort of man going “his own way” is so weak that he allows women to dictate anything to him?

    If your spine is made of such absurdly pliant material that you fear being coopted by the hint of perfume or the gentle nape of a woman’s neck, then perhaps you really are best to stay only in the company of men given to such weakness and fear.”

    It’s all there.

    “Owning your space is good advice for everyone and Paul’s advice shows no association with manning up or gender shaming.”

    See above.

    Paul speaks and writes so deliberately well that this “Quick Note” stands out like a barb.

    It’s not a puzzle we can’t understand.

    And “what sort of “independence” is so frail that it can be hijacked”? A new one — that’s what. (SAY WHAT AGAIN, MOTHERFUCKER!) A young and developing one. One that needs our cohesion, protection and care. You know that. We know this.

    Btw, I’m interested to see how a third reading may change your mind yet again, Inspectorrrr!? IF that IS your REAL name, hmm? (twists moustache)

    If I am so wrong, then please correct me with evidence. Not just “no he didn’t!”

    Thanks.

    • Bombay

      You are right:

      “At the same time I want to call your attention to the second paragraph of the quote from the newbie and tell you that I just had to laugh. And I have to ask, what sort of “independence” is so frail that it can be hijacked, and what sort of man going “his own way” is so weak that he allows women to dictate anything to him?

      That is man-up gender shaming statement.

    • Astrokid

      ok.. I will take up the argument.
      Firstly, you got to understand the context that generated this post.
      There was a discussion on hypergamy between AVFMers Suz (and Dean to an extent) and a couple of guys. The guys keep arguing that they are being shamed. I have commented in that thread that it is silly to pull out this ‘shaming card’ so fast. It really is.
      Then some guy who’s been watching the opposing views drops in with the comment quoted in this article.
      http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/mgtow-forums-pulls-the-plug/comment-page-1/#comment-209310

      Now.. Re: the Highlighted portion.. would you categorize it as not-shaming if it had been like this?

      And I have to ask, what sort of “independence” is so frail that it can be hijacked, and what sort of man going “his own way” is so weak that he allows women others to dictate anything to him?

      Coz he could have worded it like that as well. Thats the message of this article. If you are going your own way, you dont give a damn for anyone shaming you via gender-norms. Its quite likely that Paul subconsciously put in ‘women’ there because the context of that argument involved a woman.
      In general, articles ought to be read with a charitable interpretation. Otherwise, authors will have to walk on eggshells every time, and thats unsustainable.

      • antivenomist

        Thanks for the added context, Astrokid.

        • antivenomist

          But, that argument has been settled.

          • Astrokid

            I dont understand your reply, which seems to have been edited and is lot different from what I got by email. You said: “ok.. I will take up the argument.” After the fact. Directly after he admitted that I was right. Not 40 minutes later. I dont know what thats supposed to mean. I was at my computer, got a notification of the comment via email, immediately responded to it, like I do for many things. Should I have waited 40 minutes? LOL
            Either way.. if my argument is unconvincing, its just that – unconvincing. I will leave it at that.

  • antivenomist

    Thank you, Bombay. I appreciate your integrity.

  • antivenomist

    Very good. Yes, I edited my response. Btw, I’ll take this opportunity to tell you that I’ve enjoyed comments of yours that I’ve seen here and elsewhere.

    • Astrokid

      Thank you.