Desperation

How we kill Johnny

It was three weeks after I left the last residential treatment center for which I would ever work. A Saturday morning to be precise, and the phone rang- jarring me from the rare pleasure of a sleep in. It was Camille, so I knew it wasn’t good.

She wouldn’t call me if it were good

“You remember that boy Johnny you worked with, the one from Louisiana?” she asked.

“Yeah, why?”

“Dead,” she said. It was uttered in the tone of someone doing a poor job acting like they didn’t like delivering bad news.

“Drugs?” I asked.

“No,” she replied, “Suicide. Killed that little girl he was married to, as well. And shot some guy she was sleepin’ with, but he made it.”

I just lay there silent.

“Anyway, I knew you would want to know.”

I hung up without saying anything else. Knew I would want to know? My ass. Couldn’t wait to tell me was more like it. The bitch was a feminist crusader. She made a career of telling the men we counseled what louts they were for being men, and I made a career of pulling them aside and telling them how full of shit she was. We were the only two counselors in that program and the mix was volatile. I spent many days in the administrative offices fending off complaints about my “unusual style” in dealing with male clients. That is what they called not hating them.

Johnny wasn’t the first in twenty years of doing that kind of work. Quite honestly, I had lost count. But counting is just for statistics anyway. In the work I did the numbers had faces. They had families and stories that I learned from listening to them. And they had pain that mostly went unnoticed by the very people that were supposed to be there to help them.

I remembered Johnny’s story, and his pain. He was a twenty two year old stock boy at an auto parts store in the hot and humid swamp lands of southern Louisiana. When he spoke, it was with rural earnestness, and a Cajun accent thicker than gators in bayou country.

“Man, Paul, I doan know what to do ‘bout that girl o’ mine. I know she cheatin’. I know I doan make a dime what she don’t spend right away. Sometime she spend it on some other guy. But I can’t help it. Every time she call my name I got to come runnin’. Lord never made a bigger fool than me.”

And Johnny was right. He was a fool, and couldn’t be talked out of his foolishness. Just like all real men. And his story isn’t reserved just for those who drink and drug themselves into oblivion because they have a woman they can’t live with, or without.

In this awful age of misandry, we live so many lies about men that we have lost all touch with the reality of what they are really like. And the cost of it is written in caskets and countless souls lost in a world with no memory of why they died.

You see, men love. They love with the most profound intensity and selflessness of which any creature on this earth is capable. And the steely bond between them and women is, unlike their hearts, unbreakable.  When men die on the battlefield, they often fade away telling fellow soldiers “Tell my wife I love her.” Others cry out for their mothers as blood soaks the soil.

They are flattened by divorce, and many will eat a gun rather than face the loss, even if it is the loss of someone that has already destroyed their lives.

They will lay down in traffic for the women they love and stand in the way of bullets to protect them. And they will strike down any many who dares offend them. They have been doing this for all of human history.

79% of all suicides are men.
 Yet all this has been rewritten with misandric ink. It has been revised by scholars who tell us men are bad, by psychologists whose main field of work seems to be recommending divorce, complete with male scapegoat, as a cure all for women for whatever petty dissatisfactions they feel about their mates. And it has been inculcated into the consciousness of our family law system, driving men to despair and despondency on levels never before seen in history.

If you want the statistics, go look them up. I am tired of turning dead men into numbers and “proving” there is a problem to the Camille’s of this world.

I hope, more than anything else, that at some point in our future that people start to think. When you see the story on the evening news about a man who set himself ablaze outside a family court, ask yourself what kind of pain could drive someone to cure it with fire? When you read in the newspaper about the man who holed up in his house with a gun and his children, threatening to take them all out, ask yourself if this is just a crazy man, or a man driven to the brink by a pain so monstrous and devastating that even the unthinkable could become an option?

During divorce, men kill themselves at 10 times the rate of women.
Indeed, there is a great deal we have to ask. The only problem is that all the wrong people are asking all the wrong questions. We have a president who marks Father’s Day by shaming men for not being better Dads. We have psychotherapists telling us that it is women who love too much. And we have a system of higher education that cares more about the life expectancy of a fruit fly than a young man who blows his brains out.

And this in a culture that still raises men to put women in lifeboats and then try their hand at breathing saltwater, as though death were their only true calling.

Is it any wonder why, when we create men to so devalue their own existence; to be disposable, that we can so often see them doing just what we have insisted that they do? And shouldn’t we, perhaps, question at times whether it is suicide that takes these men… or murder? Who, after all, is putting the gun in their hands and promising them the pain will stop if they only pull the trigger?

Perhaps Obama, in his own erroneous way,  is right.  We do need better Dads. We need Dads to teach their sons, not “how to treat a woman,” but how hold their own with them.  We don’t need to teach them to “take care of their woman,” but to only accept one who demonstrates the character and integrity to be trusted, from the start.

And we need to teach them how rare that is in modern life. More than anything else, we need to teach them how to let women go, and watch them as they grow up to make sure they can do it.  And we need Dads to role model that, in their own families with their own wives. In other words, we need to do a lot of things that we are not doing.

I know it is obligatory. I can’t write a piece like this and not include some resources for men to call in in times of crisis, such as those paltry resources are. So I will include something at the end.  But I would still like to think, that somewhere, at some point in time, we can quit offering Band-aids for men to put on tumors and start helping them with their real problems.

It seems, hell or high water, that we are going to continue to destroy men in courtrooms and therapy offices and offer them up as convenient political fodder. It isn’t anything new. But we better start calling on the fathers of this world to stop raising their sons to do nothing more than stand against a wall for whatever woman is in their lives, just waiting for their turn in a box.

National Suicide Prevention Hotline

About Paul Elam

Paul Elam is the founder and publisher of A Voice for Men, the founder of A Voice for Men Radio, the AVfM YouTube Channel, and appears weekly on AVFM Intelligence Report, Going Mental with Dr. Tara Palmatier and weekly on MANstream Media with Warren Farrell and Tom Golden.

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  • Liberata

    I have a good father. He told me a lot of things I just wish I likstened more before I made the mistakes I did and learned the hard way (for example the lesson of trusting a tavern hag). Well he was always there for me and made me a strong ambitious male but he had to make the hard decision of sending me off to my mother. I dont think he knew what a radical feminist she was. She decided that I needed to go see a psychologist to “fix me”. In other words she wanted me to go see some brainwash doctor to tell me I was sick and needed to change in order to “get better”. So once every two weeks I go see this guy who subtly tells me my dad was wrong for making me strong, that I need medicine to slow down my brain (ridaline), that it is wrong to judge people (like the cheating tavern hag), that I am disposable, always listen to the media, and that I should become a mangina. Also he has this idea that people do not have natural rights, and he tries to twist the english for life liberty and property around so that I think I have less rights than I do and even worse, he tries to trick me into thinking that my rights are a privalage given to me by the federal government and that I am just a cattle. I refuse to submit, every day and forever. I refuse to become a mangina and I refuse to become the systems bitch slave. I am a human being and no other human has the right to degrade or violate me. Its people like him and like the tavern hag that push people over the edge with their communist ideas and games they play with us against our knowledge. Its important to judge people.

    Awesome article Paul you obviously put a lot of thought into this one. Im going to share it on facebook thanks for everything.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    You may not know it and I hope it doesn’t sound cliche’ but you are the reason this web site is here. When I see young men stepping up like you do, it lets me know that this movement is not going to die with the old farts.

    It will be your job, and your sons, to finish it.

    I think we are in good hands.

  • http://www.rip-factor.com/formen/index.html Richard

    This was an epiphany I had several years ago.

    I noticed that if I refused to be “selfless” towards women, I would get called “selfish” by women.

    That is, if I did not immediately think of my money and assets as being “ours” instead of “mine”, I was labeled as “selfish”.

    The problem is – How come a woman who just instantly expects the man to “turn over his money” or “lay his life on the line” is not the one being “selfish”. After all, what is she going to do for him?

    Usually, the answer to that is…… NOTHING.

    It was this point in my life that I realized that any man entering a relationship with a woman is going to get screwed – simply because of the entitlement attitude most women are infected with today.

  • Jabberwocky

    I remember I once loved so deeply, so tragically, that the pain of that love being never returned still makes my soul bitter and jaded. It was the chemical rush, the psychological addiction of young love, something I could possibly argue is true love, as it was blind, unconditional, and reckless. To have had that love returned, to have felt that passion unburdened by rejection would truely have been the greatest joy of my life. For having experienced that bliss, I would forever have owed women my labor, my love, and my life. Instead, my feelings were not returned, they were taken advantage of, trampled on, and I was even gently mocked in the shadows of the crowd for being a love sick fool, like it was some weakness or defect to love so completely. Over time, I fell less and less harder for each subsequent girl who led me to believe I had a chance. Eventually I was totally broken down, or rather my ability to ever love with all my heart was forever destroyed. In the eyes of the Game community, and with my peers at the time, you could have said I was a pussy-whipped Beta, a pedelstalizing pushover, but at the time, I thought love was supposed to be complete and total. It came natural for me to love like that. I was a fool I guess, or deeply misguided. Love is only for certain people maybe. For the rest of us, our hearts must always be shielded from the hypergamous instincts of womanity. I can still love, but never in the complete, total, and truly romantic sense again. I feel sorry for my wife that I am broken for her, that I can only love her more like a family member, and less like my muse for living. Its not her fault. She is beautiful and good soul, and if I was younger, I believe I would have loved her in the most powerful and intense way, but she seems to accept my shielded love anyways, and maybe prefers it, as it keeps her in her place, or rather me in my dominate place. As I age, like many men, my options grow, and my ability to score with hotter and hotter women increases with my status, wisdom, and wealth. I still think I would trade it all to have experienced love in that heightened and thoughtless way only teenagers are capable of. Maybe I’m just suffering from the grass is always greener syndrome, but I don’t think I am. Their is a developmental age when we must learn language in order for it to be natural and fluent. Maybe the same is true for love, and if so, I missed that stage of development because women were looking for something else to love at that time, someone more masculine, more mature, and less smitten. Someone Alpha. Something hard for most of us to be when we are still developing our sense of self. The only peace I can find in all this, is that as we age, the tables are turning, and its looks as if I’ll have the last laugh after all, and when the time comes, I plan to make sure they know the jokes on them, that they shot themselves in the foot by chasing their instincts over their long term best interests and the best interests of society at large. The world will know the fools that women truely are, and women will come to realize they are to blame for the current ills of our cultural decay. They will feel shame, regret, and if possible, dishonor, and then they will die with their cats praying for forgiveness, and from me, they will get no sympathy.

  • Peggy Spencer

    “The world will know the fools that women truely are, and women will come to realize they are to blame for the current ills of our cultural decay. They will feel shame, regret, and if possible, dishonor, and then they will die with their cats praying for forgiveness, and from me, they will get no sympathy. ”

    Jabberwocky – I’m sorry you were hurt so badly in your youth. Sounds like it has stayed with you and affected all your subsequent relationships, which has got to be tough. However, I’m a stranger to you, and a woman, and when I read this I wonder, “How can this guy be angry with me and call me a fool? He doesn’t even know me.”

    Just like the Feminists were wrong to vilify men, I think MRA’s are wrong to vilify women as a whole group.

  • Jabberwocky

    “However, I’m a stranger to you, and a woman, and when I read this I wonder, “How can this guy be angry with me and call me a fool? He doesn’t even know me.”

    Just like the Feminists were wrong to vilify men, I think MRA’s are wrong to vilify women as a whole group.”

    This is the “not all women are like that” or NAWALT defense. I’m obviously talking in general trends, not specifically about you or any other specific women. Plenty of women are saints and deserve nothing but love and happiness in their lives.

    Unfortunately, in times of conflict, innocent lives are generally always affected, be it divorce, politics, or war. It doesn’t matter what or how strict the rules of engagement are. Collateral damage is one of the many unfair facts of life. If you know of a way to defeat feminism that would not involve the suffering of women as a whole, I’m all ears, but as it is, we are currently at a disadvantage and must fight this A-symetrical political war in a way that may harm innocent bystanders. I would care more, but I was collaterall damage in the gender war waged by feminist, the war that your side started and that people like you did nothing to prevent.

    Anyways, feminist and feminist sympathizers have always been notorious for painting all men with one broad brush. We are simply guilty for the fact we are men. No man, no matter how honorable can excape male “priveledge”. No man, no matter if he himself is even a militant feminist, can claim to exist outside the patriarchy. I was not the intended target of feminist hate, but wounded I was, an innocent bystander, a child, whose mother divorced his honorable Beta-provider father to chase her hypergamous instincts and who constantly reminded him in his impressionable youth that men are nothing but bastards and scum. Now where would she have gotten those ideas? Who empowered her to act so selfish and cruel? I am simply the outcome of unintended consequences, but “I am” never the less. Even so called “good” women stood by while my father, brother and I were all vilified for something we could not change, the fact that we were men. Feminism will pay for crippling my life, and unfortunately, many women who don’t identify as feminist will pay as well. I can only say I’m sorry, and mean it, but that guilt will hardly make me hesitate in continuing doing whatever has to be done. I can truely say that I grew into a monster, and feminism is the hand that rocked my cradle.

    “I think MRA’s are wrong to vilify women as a whole group.”

    Not all MRA’s are like that silly.

  • Peggy Spencer

    “I think MRA’s are wrong to vilify women as a whole group.”

    ‘Not all MRA’s are like that silly.’

    I didn’t mean to suggest that they were. Obviously they all aren’t or I wouldn’t be here. It was a poor choice of words. I should have said, “I think it is wrong when a Men’s Right’s Activist vilifies women as a whole group.”

    I’m glad you don’t, but that was not clear in your previous post.

    Why does this have to be a war? Why does valuing the best in each person have to be about putting down anyone? If feminism was wrong, why use the same aggressive, punishing stance and tactics?

  • http://www.triond.com/users/Casey+Mack Word Phoole

    A well-written piece, Paul. Some dense food for thought here, but the only problem is those that need to eat of it likely won’t read it.

  • Jabberwocky

    “Why does this have to be a war?”

    War of ideas. Its just how my male mind frames things. Be glad for that masculine predilection, as its kept your genetic line safe throughout all of history. Warmongering men tend to be the only thing that can keep other warmongering men at bay.

    “Why does valuing the best in each person have to be about putting down anyone?”

    Women need to be put down, because they are raised up on a pedestal. Either that, or we can raise men up on a pedestal. Which would you prefer?

    “If feminism was wrong, why use the same aggressive, punishing stance and tactics?”

    I came up with about four different answers, but I erased them, as they were perhaps rationalizations or secondary concerns. The truth is, I’m pissed. I’m hurt and I want to lash out. Is this anger wrong? Is this anger justified? I don’t know, but its there, and I choose not to ignore it. I think I’m entitled to acting on my emotions just as any women may act upon hers. If you want to start talking about suppressing emotions, as men have for generations, for the betterment of society, then lets start with female emotions this time.

  • Peggy Spencer

    Jabberwocky,

    Thanks for engaging with me.

    OK, so you call it a war of ideas. Fair enough. I guess my feminine mind frames it differently. More like a conversation or a discussion. And yes, I am glad for the “masculine predilection” in the world. I just don’t happen to have it myself.

    Nobody should be up on a pedestal. I don’t think putting someone up on a pedestal is an act of respect, and I don’t think being up there is a respectable place to be. In my opinion, what we need is more respect for each other, all of us, all genders. No pedestals. Just even ground.

    You’re pissed and hurt. Is your anger wrong? I don’t think any feelings are wrong. They are what they are. Is it justified? Irrelevant question, really. Only you can know that, and if you are angry, you’re angry. If someone does me wrong in my opinion, I get angry too. Does lashing out work? Depends on your goal, I guess. Buddha said (paraphrasing) that lashing out in anger is like grasping a coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else.

    I’m not suggesting you suppress your feelings. That’s unhealthy for anyone.

    I just think there are ways and ways of expressing feelings. If you’re angry, you could throw a brick through a window, or you could write impassioned thoughtful posts on a Men’s Issues website, hoping to educate younger men so they don’t have to go through what you did. I’d argue that the second choice is more likely to lead to a positive change in your life. And, of course, there are more than two choices!

    Yeesh. I didn’t mean to get into a big psychological rant. My point is that I don’t think anger and vitriol are tools of ultimate real change. Probably many readers here would disagree with me, and I’m ready to hear it.

  • Liberata

    The anger is there for a reason. He wouldnt be angry if something was not wrong. I love emotions. They are a form of logic; primitave, flawless logic. Logic is something I believe in strongly. You do too dont you Peggy?

  • Jabberwocky

    I dig Buddha. He also said:

    “You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.”

    Unfortunately for Buddha, as a skinny, geeky weirdo, I still managed to beat the snot out of many deserving bullies throughout my life, largely due to a laser like focused rage. I don’t plan on abondening that tool just because some philosophers (and most of them pontificate against anger) have the luxury to pontificate about it. Theory and application are two different things. I’ve applied my anger, for good causes, and am aware of its usefullness. And “lashing out” was a poor choice of words, as it implies thoughtless rage, so just think of it as death by a thousand cuts instead. Rage is just one tool of many I utilize. Right now, spreading the message is important, and spreading the emotion will seal that message within the minds of men. Emotion and memory are strongly linked.

    Other quotes:

    “Debate is masculine, conversation is feminine.”

    “Anger is only a natural reaction; one of the mind’s ways of reacting to things that it percieves to be wrong. While anger can sometimes lead people to do shocking things,it can also be an instinct to show people that something isn’t right.”

    “He is a fool who cannot be angry; but he is a wise man who will not”

    “Anger is a great force. If you control it, it can be transmuted into a power which can move the whole world.”

    “The angry people are those people who are most afraid”

    “Anyone can become angry – that is easy, but to be angry with the right person at the right time, and for the right purpose and in the right way – that is not within everyone’s power and that is not easy.”

    “Anger is not bad. Anger can be a very positive thing, the thing that moves us beyond the acceptance of evil.”

    “The world needs anger. The world often continues to allow evil because it isn’t angry enough.”

    “The truth shall make you free, but first it shall make you angry”

    “Try as much as possible to be wholly alive, with all your might, and when you laugh, laugh like hell and when you get angry, get good and angry. Try to be alive. You will be dead soon enough.”

    “Anger repressed can poison a relationship as surely as the cruelest words”

    Keep in mind, there are other things I would rather be doing than fighting the harmful affects of feminism, political correctness, and socialism (all linked by the way), and for most of my life, I loved women, admired women, craved their acceptance, but a loyal dog kicked one too many times either begins to cower in the corner or bite his master. I’m really just peeing on the masters leg. Trust me, if I was truely angry, or allowed myself to be, I wouldn’t be here talking with you, and some strategic people out there working against my interests would be dead. Its not that hard to kill people.

    • Bellator Nam Parilitas

      Anger has long been a key tool in the man’s arsenal. Not to say that women do not have that as well. However there is a reason why when training new recruits for war, drill sergeants will equate the enemy to rapists, murderers and theives.

      They talk about the enemy in absolutes of evil. They will tell you that they want nothing more than to come over to your country and destroy your government, take over your home and rape your daughters, sisters, wifes, and mothers.

      They do this because they know that the instinct for survival is one of the most powerful instincts out there. However in a man’s psyche anger and motivation can override the instinct for survival.

      To attempt to remove this emotion from yourself is akin to attempting self castration. Anger is one of the few things that can override the flight mechanism in a life or death situation.

  • Peggy Spencer

    @Liberata. I love emotions too. I don’t think there are “right” or “wrong” emotions. An emotion is my reaction to something I perceive. Logical? Sometimes. Sometimes my perception is in error. And no, I am NOT suggesting that men who feel hurt by women are in error! I’m addressing your point about emotions being a kind of primitive logic, “primitive” being the operative word. Many times I have gotten angry because I thought someone did me wrong, only to find out that whatever they did had nothing to do with me. That’s where it gets beyond primitive. Of course, sometimes it had everything to do with me, and my anger was logical after all. Anger, fear, joy, etc…they are all part of our emotional landscape, a lovely place to live, in my opinion. I would never ask someone to squash their emotions. Feel them all. But how you express them is a choice you can make, and your choice will influence the outcome of your actions, that’s all.

    @Paul. I should have said “vitriol and violence” aren’t good tools for change. Anger isn’t a tool, anyway, it’s a feeling, and of course you are angry. My point is that I believe change, real change, has to happen inside people, and you’re not going to get that by beating them up. Yeah, it might take longer, but that’s life. Standing on a podium (or a pedestal) and shouting “Hey! Respect me, dammit!” might get some laws changed (Feminism is a case in point) but again, I think real, lasting social change has to happen one person at a time, from within. My opinion.

    @Jabberwocky. “Right now, spreading the message is important, and spreading the emotion will seal that message within the minds of men. Emotion and memory are strongly linked. ” That makes sense to me. Reaching men and boys by acknowledging and validating the anger they feel makes sense. Drawing them into a supportive community so they can hear other messages and be inspired to do what they need to do to change their situation.

    Great quotes, thanks.

    If you were truly angry you’d be out killing people? Are you sure? That sounds like the ultimate misandric stereotype to me. “Men are angry and violent.” As if angry and violent have to go together.

    The reason I’m here is because I have a son, and I do not want him to grow up feeling “less than” anyone just because of his gender. I have the same wishes for my daughter. And if anyone tries to tell me she won’t suffer from sexism, you’ll see ME get angry! It’s still out there, in both directions.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    The difference Peggy, is that your daughter has an entire culture. legal and political apparatus all set up to join you in your anger about what she might face. And to do something about it.

    And for what could happen to your son? Well. there is a couple of websites.

    Get angry if you want to, but if you think that your daughter is facing anywhere near the same levels of institutionalized sexism as your son, or if you think your son has anywhere near the resources for help as your daughter, you need to make a much stronger pot of coffee.

  • Jabberwocky

    “If you were truly angry you’d be out killing people? Are you sure? That sounds like the ultimate misandric stereotype to me. “Men are angry and violent.” As if angry and violent have to go together.”

    You act as if there is never a time to kill. Are you trying to tell me that anger and violence don’t go together? I’m well aware of how non-violent protest, developed by Ghandi and utilized by MLK works. I’m also aware of how our country won our independence and ended slavery. Your utopian idealism doesn’t sway me from the harsh realities of life as I understand it. Your words are pretty, but more naive than profound. I think your problem in you not being able to understand my perspective, is that you have perhaps not suffered enough at the hands of others, that you have perhaps never been backed into a corner your whole life, that you are “priveliged” to live a sheltered existance that doesn’t force you to make the tough life and death decisions that men have often have to. You are equally lucky to have never felt anger to such a degree that murder was a logical option. And luckily, neither have I. I still realize that I have a limit, a line that when crossed I would kill. Surely you do to. You try to frame the situation as if you are my moral superior (unconsiously) but one who denies their own capacity for evil is more likely to act unknowingly in accordance with evil. My ability to kill is a strength, not a weakness. Do be able to kill, one must not feel shame for the act when the neccissity comes. At the same time, my moral compass points true and I am miles away from thinking that “assasination” would be the most wise course of action in this political war, and I doubt that it ever will be. It is always a last resort, but at the same time must always be readily available if its to be used effectively if the circumstances demand it. You have no idea how much I wish I didn’t have to think like this, to always analyze situations to their worst case scenerio, but my thoughts are grounded in reality as I see it, and I won’t self-delude myself just so I feel more at peace with the world around me. There is evil, and I am prepared for it, and right now, the most direct threat to the environment I exist in is feminism.

    And most stereotypes exist for a reason. Men are more violent than women. In a physically direct way that is. Again, this violence can be used for good and evil. It is a tool, and a tool I will always keep in my tool belt, perhaps itching to use it, but hoping to never have to. Think of it as a cowboy with a quick draw. He hones those reflexes, maybe even obsesses over them, but he doesn’t walk around looking for gun fights. At least not this cowboy. There will always be bad apples however, and the good apples like me are the ones who will take them down.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    @ Peggy Spencer

    “My point is that I don’t think anger and vitriol are tools of ultimate real change. Probably many readers here would disagree with me, and I’m ready to hear it.

    Are you kidding me? Anger is the only driving force for social change that ever existed.

    Nothing personal toward you, but I get really angry, vitriolic actually, after so many rounds of people wanting men to face a world that literally hates them, and uses them to death, by playing all nice.

    And God forbid, don’t be angry.

    It’s bullshit, and men that fall for that one are just being easily controlled by the wrong forces. We are supposed to be angry, Peggy. Angry enough to take action. Angry enough to not give a shit if our being angry upsets people.

    And like it or not, before change comes, a few figurative bricks through windows is sometimes part of the process.

    It ain’t pretty, but neither are the reasons so many men are pissed off.

  • Jabberwocky

    http://counterfem.blogspot.com/2010/07/pouring-benzine-on-fire.html

    Here, the Couter-Feminist puts it better than I. Be sure to check out the article he is linking to. After you read that, tell me this is not an idealogical war and one that it is by its very nature going to get nasty. Feminism is a religion. Feminist will not give up their beliefs without a fight.

  • Peggy Spencer

    Now you’ve made me cry.

    I’m kidding! I will go read that article as soon as Kent State Daily KOS fixes their site. Seems to be down now.

    You’re right. I’m lucky. I have never felt like my life was in danger from another, never felt angry enough that killing was “a logical option.” I think I’d lash out like a mother tiger if my young were threatened, but I’ll never know unless that happens.

    I’m also naive, at least when it comes to some of these ideas I read here. It’s another reason I’m here – to learn.

    As to violence and anger, yes of course they go together. I just meant that anger doesn’t always have to lead to violence.

  • Jabberwocky

    Peggy, thanks for listening to me, and I am listening back. I promise, despite my interest in various forms of aggression, I wish for a world that maximizes everyones ability to be happy. Sometimes aggressive measures are what it takes to get there. History is not a pretty picture, but a portrait of reality.

    And I have better reasons for fighting this fight than I am generally comfortably sharing on a daily basis, although throughout my time at the Spearhead I have opened up about much of it. I’ve went through a lot and for a long time. I understand how “evil” men come to be because I was almost one of them. I was headed down that path, but something nudged me down the path of rightousness instead. Luck, God, who knows. It is not the easier path however, and I’m sure I’ll make mistakes.

  • Liberata

    Anger and violence do not directly correspond with eachother. Its only when you add a lack of impulse control that violence starts popping up. If I was violent every time I was angry I would be in juvy on assault charges. I dont want to be violent anyways.

  • Jabberwocky

    “Anger and violence do not directly correspond with eachother”

    Of course, and I don’t mean to suggest otherwise, but they are linked. They both exist on a continuum, and each degree of shift on one continuum will affect the other. There can be violence without anger, and anger without violence. However, most violence is probably tied to a certain degree to anger. In fact, if you try to be violent without being angry, you’ll find it pretty hard, the anger will creep in. Exceptions exist, especially in psycho-paths.

  • Peggy Spencer

    @Jabberwocky. I read the Daily Kos article. I think the writer summed up her thesis about what Male Studies is here:

    “It’s about the last desperate cry of a generation of men who insist that an even playing field puts them at a disadvantage, that fairness isn’t fair. It’s about fear of losing a system that has always privileged them and needing someone to blame for it. It’s about throwing a pity party because for the first time in human history, men are having to share the power they have always assumed was their birthright. ”

    Yep, them’s fighting words if you’re an MRA. I can see that. The outlook is limited and the tone is dismissive. No, worse, it is insulting. Did you read the comments? They’re all over the map, including quite a few voices of reason and balance, actually. I particularly liked this one, which was in response to a “His-tory left out Her-story” comment:

    “When my son was brought into this world he did not acquire the sins of all men who came before him. His difficulties were important to deal with and I didn’t wait until his sister grew up to become an important and powerful individual before I dealt with his issues. I guess you would have. My wife and I love them both and we deal with their problems as they arise. When I sit on the Board of Education (majority female) at my local school and twice as many boys as girls are unable to comprehend their studies I don’t wait for women’s equality before I deal with their lack of understanding. If one is not interested in seeking knowledge and truth one will be ignorant and fearful. See, understanding history and understanding the psychology of men are not necessarily identical searches for knowledge. Men didn’t have a great deal of self-knowledge in the past and their histories didn’t add much in that regard.”

    It’s so easy to spout a party line, but when you look around you and accept the reality of what you see happening to people you know and love, sometimes you have to admit that the party line wears thin.

    Also @Jabberwocky, in the same vein, aren’t those personal reasons the best motivators for fighting the fight? I don’t need to know yours, but I do believe that we all act out of our own personal experience because that is our truth. A major challenge for me, and for all of us, I think, is seeing that truth clearly. Again, letting go of the party-line-colored glasses, to make a bad metaphor.

  • B. R. Merrick

    Jabberwocky, I am very much impressed with your ability to speak so openly about the loss of your first love, and the devastation that followed. Along with that, you mentioned the bullying that you suffered from. I was wondering if you’d ever heard of the work of Alice Miller? She is now deceased, but her website is still up:

    http://alice-miller.com/index_en.php

    I thought you might benefit from learning more about ways in which you may have possibly been hurt growing up. But to open up in such a way to a bunch of other people is quite moving. I hope you may be able to experience at least a bit more healing. I can see, though, now that I am entering into middle age, that some scars just plain won’t heal.

    Peggy Spencer: “Why does valuing the best in each person have to be about putting down anyone?”

    I think, Peggy, that it might have something to do with how we are raised. A lot of us are made to feel “inferior” as children, rather than simply accepted as we are. To deal every day with feelings of inferiority is tremendously difficult, and the process of finding fault with others and scapegoating provides some relief from the lack that inferiority makes us feel. This is why I have embraced individuality. I don’t need to be superior, inferior, or equal to anyone else.

    Peggy again: “”I think real, lasting social change has to happen one person at a time, from within. My opinion.”

    Oh wow! That’s one of my three criteria for a freedom revolution!

    1. It must be peaceful.
    2. It must be individual (no mass movement to join). When you understand freedom in your own mind, the revolution is won.
    3. It must have the distinct lack of a charismatic leader.

    Well done, Peggy!

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    @ B.R.

    That is interesting. Your criteria for a “freedom revolution” is laudable, but I have to ask, where is there, in the course of history, any evidence of such a revolution taking place?

    I understand individual freedom from social constructs, and in that arena alone I would agree 100% with your model. But when the lack of freedom is tangible, and institutionalized, like Jim Crow laws or anti-sodomy laws, then how does one gain freedom from this withing your framework?

  • Peggy Spencer

    @Paul. I notice you cite history often. Sure, that’s where we have been, but I thought the whole point is we need to get somewhere new. Break out of the old mold, as it were. Just because we have done it “that way” forever doesn’t mean we should keep on keeping on. Au contraire. I’m sure you can clarify this apparent discrepancy.

    It begs the question: can you legislate morality? And related questions. Can laws change minds? Can institutionalizing egalitarianism make people believe we are all equals? Can smiling put you in a good mood?

    I only know the answer to the last one, which is, in my experience, yes, sometimes. But a better way to achieve peace of mind is from the inside out.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    Well, Peggy, on a personal level, I agree with you. When I want to experience freedom, I can do so within. But I never was a kum by ya kind of guy when it comes to politics. It isn’t pragmatic and it doesn’t work. Never has and never will.

    Now, in the truest sense, any person living on this planet is totally free provided they are willing to die to prove it. But it just isn’t so easy for most people to talk about high roads and lofty ideals with a sentry bearing down on them in their own living room.

    There is no discrepancy unless you create one. Just because you want to go in a new direction doesn’t mean you have to take a rickshaw to get there. Especially true when you are on a road as rough is this, and that is not smoothed out by our wishes.

    But if you can demonstrate how “your way” actually makes any practical sense, I am all ears.

  • Peggy Spencer

    Politics, is it? Is that how we effect real change? I’m not so sure.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    Think bigger than that, Peggy. There is a lot of politics that are not in Washington.

  • Peggy Spencer

    @Paul. It’s apples and oranges. We’re talking about different kinds of change here. You are an agent of social change, a political strategist who wants to change the language and structure of society to improve the experience of men. I applaud you, I do. You’re right – changes have happened in society in the past, beginning with injustice and fueled by pain and anger. It can work. It has worked. And, if there is to be change in our children’s generation, it will have to be primarily your kind.

    The “internal change” that I and my fellow kum ba ya’ers seek is perhaps subtler, certainly slower, and, I believe, more lasting than political change. I hope for a world one day where a person is judged on the content of their character and not on the color of their skin (wait, have I heard that somewhere before? ;)) I’m an optimist. I have faith in the goodness of the human spirit. I believe that we can, eventually, evolve. But the kind of evolution I mean, to a state of mutual respect and acceptance, has to begin with each one of us.

    Apples and oranges. Both delicious and healthy.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    Actually, oranges are superior in every way. Apples are evil. :)

  • Peggy Spencer

    LOL! Touche, Adam Elam.

  • Jabberwocky

    “I’m an optimist. I have faith in the goodness of the human spirit. I believe that we can, eventually, evolve. But the kind of evolution I mean, to a state of mutual respect and acceptance, has to begin with each one of us.”

    You underestimate peoples capacity for self-interest and the minds adaptability through self-delusion towards that goal.

    I sense a beautiful, glowing soul within you. I equally sense the ugliness of how that intense light blinds you to the shadows within us all.

  • B. R. Merrick

    Paul, you wrote: “I have to ask, where is there, in the course of history, any evidence of such a revolution taking place?” I don’t know of any time in history when such a revolution took place. I can recall one bloody revolution after another resulting in the same tyrrany over time. I can recall on mass movement after another dying out over time. I can recall revolutions that were peaceful in nature essentially coming to an end when the leaders of those peaceful revolutions, some of whom were virtually worshipped, died. That is why I came up with those three criteria.

    Oh, what I stand for is a long shot. Jabberwocky’s comment just above this is quite truthful. That is why I call for a revolution of the individual. You can’t always control external circumstances, but the human mind is capable of limitless ideas, all of which can be applied to counter feminism, socialism, nationalism, fascism, and every other -ism, once enough individuals have revolutionized.

    As tiny as my effort is, I just hope it reaches one other person and affects change. If that happens, I am content.

  • http://avoiceformen.com Paul Elam

    @ B.R.

    Ok, we were talking about two different things. I agree with you. Perhaps at some point you could do an article on the “revolution of the individual”

    This is just the place for it. :)

  • Peggy Spencer

    @Jabberwocky.

    “You underestimate peoples capacity for self-interest and the minds adaptability through self-delusion towards that goal.

    I sense a beautiful, glowing soul within you. I equally sense the ugliness of how that intense light blinds you to the shadows within us all.”

    It is a constant challenge to see things and people as they really are. Sometimes I miss the ugliness, sometimes I miss the beauty. I agree we all have light and shadow, and it is important not to deny that. I believe that if we could relax some of our death grip on our own egos, we could see through ourselves and our delusions more readily, and discover that all that striving isn’t really working to bring us peace of mind.

  • Jabberwocky

    “I believe that if we could relax some of our death grip on our own egos, we could see through ourselves and our delusions more readily, and discover that all that striving isn’t really working to bring us peace of mind.”

    I agree totally. But we are fighting nature here. It seems a “big ego” is evolutionarily advantagous, so much so, that most women seem to have evolved to be attracted to it.

    From my perspective, my intelligence always made me keenly aware of my limitations. Thus, my confidence was never total or complete I would say. I knew what I was good at, what I was average at, and what I was bad at. Overall, I’ve never had a strongly negative view of my self, or a strongly positive view, just a realistic one, a mixed bag of sorts. That did not translate well in the mating market. Girls I thought were on my level, because honestly they were (especially with the wisdom of hindsight), where looking for someone above their level. I just didn’t present myself as someone “exceptional” enough I think. That is why one of the best pieces of advice I’ve recieved from the Game community is to develop an irrational sense of self confidence. My ego, though naturally large in certain areas (I mean come on, I’ve been told since Elementary school I was brilliant), is generally pretend large in the rest. So far I’ve seen very little downside to having this generally inflated ego, although some people whose ego is naturally overly inflated, while being simultaneously unaware of it, I’ve seen them get themselves into trouble for it, so faking it seems to be the best of both worlds. The magnestism from presenting oneself as exceptional, but with enough realism to not to try to prove oneself in areas where one is likely to fail. Rambling a little off topic.

    My point is, how can we develop a culture that breaks down everyones ego-defense mechanisms, and if we could, would that be a good thing?

    Deep stuff. I just don’t know.

  • keith

    curious dialogue

    to quote a passage from the song “Question” by the Moody Blues

    “and when you stop and think about it you won’t believe it’s true, that all the love you’ve been giving has all been meant for you”

    I found this to be a profound statement and worth consideration of it’s implications. In the mind of zen, or at least as described by Alan Watts, duality is two ends of the same stick and the existing force of the stick runs in both directions. The MB’s ask me to consider that the love I give is the love I request, or in their words, meant for me.

    About a year and a half after the end of my first marriage, I dated a girl 10 years my junior. She asked me out. I found the attention she gave me to be wonderful and somewhat healing. I told her that her attention was causing me to fall in love with myself again………..she ended the relationship.

    I would agree that freedom is achieved in the mind………the dialogue of difference or what everyone else calls politics, threatens by accusation a state of unworthiness. The personal battle to achieve worthiness of self, brings tremendous collateral damage that all of us would prefer not to take responsibility for.

    Peggy Spencer:
    “I hope for a world one day where a person is judged on the content of their character and not on the color of their skin (wait, have I heard that somewhere before?”

    One might say that feminism seeks to define the content of my character and judge me based on that definition, along with the gender of my skin.

    Men are still cast in the role of provider, because they are required to provide anything except who and what they are. I do not wish to be rehabilitated from my maleness, or born again as a piece of feminist inventory into the church of latter day complaints and entitlements.

    I think we are under a tremendous threat of achieving mutual respect, once the value of women generally is diminished to the same level as men. But alas it is still a work in progress.

    For myself I’m going with self respect, I’ll leave others to diminish themselves.

  • Peggy Spencer

    “But we are fighting nature here. It seems a “big ego” is evolutionarily advantagous, so much so, that most women seem to have evolved to be attracted to it. ”

    I guess that makes sense, evolutionarily speaking. Big ego for us, big tits for you…it’s all good for propagating the species. But hopefully (for our planet as well as for our individual and communal psyches) we have moved beyond our instincts at least a little. I’d rather tangle brains than bods myself, at least at this point in my life. Of course, maybe that’s evolutionary as well, since I’ve had my children and thereby done my bit for the species.

    “My point is, how can we develop a culture that breaks down everyones ego-defense mechanisms, and if we could, would that be a good thing?

    Deep stuff. I just don’t know.”

    Very interesting question, Jabberwocky. I don’t know either. I do know that I feel more at peace when I relax my own death grip a little. I doubt we humans could ever totally let go of our sense of individuality, and that’s probably a good thing. But if we could just stop thinking we are so blasted important, each of us, I think that would lead to more acceptance and peace and THAT would be a good thing. In my opinion.

    “For myself I’m going with self respect, I’ll leave others to diminish themselves.”

    Me too, Keith. After all, the only person over whom I have control is me, and I have a hard enough time with that. That’s what I mean by revolution from within, one person at a time. Changed minds stick better than changed laws.

  • Peggy Spencer

    @Jabberwocky – You mentioned your posts at The Spearhead. I’d like to read them but I don’t see any Jabberwocky as an author or poster there. If you’ll tell me your moniker there I’ll appreciate it.

  • Unassumption

    One therapist at least wants to help people – must’ve been hard having to deal with all these problems knowing you had such a small chance of helping them. I like most of the sons i know grew up in a household not quite like Johnys but with enough of the features to warn me of women. Dads as despondant and demoralised as mine ARE teaching us in their own special way to hold our own with women, since trying to protect and provide only got them serfdom. As more of us grow up with feminists, less love for women fills us, and more pressure pushes men forward to fight for our own self interest and to love ourselves enough not to fall for “where were you in the war daddy” and white feathers IMO. Don’t go dissing fruit fly genetics K. Maybe we shouldn’t pay divorce court lawyers so much so they don’t encourage it – or don’t pay the woman so much so they’re not encouraged to gold dig? .

    @Camille Good to see the gender ‘more in touch with their emotions’ deals with the mentally ill – i wonder what made someone so judgmental go into mental health? If you look at any of the books supposed psychiatrists have written on ‘sociopaths’ (usually men, who have acted out and are given a label so its not societies fault) you’ll see how the animal morality that supports the traditions that have kept men down for centuries, and how they have corrupted our man filled criminal justice and mental health systems.

    @Liberata While i would agree your rights are a privileged from the federal government, they only exist in stable prosperous societies protected by military force, but its not the kind of shit a psychologist should tell you. They exist to deal with self destructive and harmful behavior, not to teach you their philosophy.

    @Revolutions Most successful revolutions weather motivated by anger, seem to replace an unnecessary element of society, without creating a power vacuum because the useful parts of society are untouched. That said reforms and evolutions have tended to last longer. Looking to the past, seeing how self governance, welfare states and civil rights for minorities were achieved, is probably the most evidence based approach to planning the changes men want and need. I’m sure we don’t have the clout to start a revolution, but lobbying for some legal changes, that may be a realistic goal, though our opponent has a huge head start their time may have come.

    @Confidence I hear confident guys can trick investers even if their record is poor so maybe big ego tricks most people; when we know the biases our animal nature has imparted us with, and our real self interest, we can begin to overcome the desire to hire the beautiful but under-qualified worker, to give our cash to the bragger with the bad record, etc. Though its an uphill battle, i’m almost certain we can make it. Humans seem on the way to becoming a super-organism to my speculative brain, but these changes take hundreds of millions of years, its not something we should worry about, for now we have to just deal with our nature.

    @laws Social and legal structures have always shaped most people’s views of morality, people tend to see the status quo as acceptable unquestioned, and any variation for it in need of explanation, hence in parts of Europe with a large public sector and few churchgoers, the idea of nationalization and secularism almost goes without saying and any opposition to them is treated as almost heretical, whereas in America where these things don’t exist the opposite is true. If a beneficial change takes place in one major nation’s law code, others often follow, as these countries compete, so i’m hoping if one country adopts men’s rights laws (and the world sees the benefits flowing from them) all other nations will follow suit.

    @Anger We need to experiment with different sorts of motivation, see what works when and where, and use the best; as we see in feminists responses to anything, anger can make you seem like an infant when used improperly and i think this is helping to fuel the movement, but there are situations where calm collected responses work better – Lionel Tiger speaking to a bunch of Feminists on porn a few years back springs to mind, though maybe it was just me who saw how irrational the women in the audience were acting. Unfortunately we don’t have enough members or enough time to really see what would work for us. Anger is in some senses all we’ve got, aside from stats.

    @Freedom Not so certain of the Sartre stuff, if we die for our ideals we could still just be following historic, social, economic, linguistic and genetic trends outside our control; i’m just hoping these trends are on the side of men.

    Great article, raises a lot of questions and thoughts, as always

  • Robert Full Of Rage

    No woman is worth taking one’s life. The pain might seem unbearable after she breaks your heart, but life goes on. Men, unlike women, are conditioned since birth to be emotionally dependent on women. When a woman leaves us, we feel as if we have no one who will care about our emotional pain. After a break-up, men return to holding all their emotional pain inside, and trying their best not to burst like an over-filled water balloon. A woman can easily find another man, but a man can’t easily find another woman. Men are becoming aware of the workings of modern relationships.

    Everything is expected of men, and nothing is expected of women. Some men give so much that they take their own lives. Women take and take until there is nothing left, and then they move onto the next man. Do me a favor and spare me the NAWALT talk. Men always think they find women who “aren’t like that”, until their women become “like that”, when it becomes convenient. You don’t know a woman until you get on her bad side.

  • Frank F T Twaddle

    well written Paul. With the quantity of boys growing up with absent fathers or fathers that know they are being tolerated in the marital home and therefore in no position to teach their son to value themselves as equal to their partner it is going to be a tall order. The systemic removal of male sports via Chapter IX is also having a effect in America. I fear we are close to a tipping point where submissive male syndrome (I just invented that name…..) becomes irreversible. We need to get men back into schools, both on the teaching staff and in classes. Hopefully change will come, the A Voice For Men Conference is a major steeping stone to that end, good luck to yourself and all that speak and attend. We can not continue killing ourselves.

  • Awesome

    Sad story of men.Never again should a man risk/waste/squander his life for a bitch.

  • ralf

    Great Article Paule!