I finally broke down about a month ago and watched my very first video of an infant circumcision. It was an instructional video, the picture grainy and the color off, so I couldn’t quite see in sparkling clarity what exactly was being done (for which I’m grateful). I watched it on mute at first, too. When I finally had the guts to turn the sound back on, the only thing more appalling to me than the screams of the baby was the cold, detached, clinical description of the procedure recited by the doctor performing it.
I’m not a squeamish person. Back in the day, when I was a professional cook at a high end hotel, I was the go-to girl whenever someone accidentally stuck his hand in the deep fryer or cut the tip of her finger off, to assess the injury, determine if it required serious attention and, if necessary, locate the missing part, at the very least to make sure it never found its way into anyone’s dinner. I’ve held my three year-old’s head still while a doctor stitched it up, and have been through the pain of natural childbirth three times. I was even seriously considering a career as a medical examiner at one time.
But watching that video left me shaking, my throat clogged with tears, and my chest tight and hot with this kind of simmering anger that such things are still done to other human beings–and such helpless ones–in this so-called progressive age.
And no, this is not an article about infant circumcision, per se. It’s an article about what the cultural and legal acceptance of infant circumcision, even in cultures where it’s not the norm, tells us about society, and about men’s place in it.
I also remember the media shit-storm that occurred a decade or so ago in Vancouver’s Chinatown when vendors were reported to the SPCA (by horrified schoolchildren on a field trip, no less) for chopping up and selling meat off live turtles, stripping off the shell and carving up the turtle piece by piece while it still lived. The vendors themselves didn’t see what the problem was. Keeping it alive as long as possible kept each slice of meat fresh. What could be simpler or easier? Besides, it was just a turtle. Why should anyone care?
Animal rights advocates were outraged by the practice (as were the majority of Average Joes I spoke to about it), but the SPCA considered it a “cultural norm”, and since there was no specific law against it, there was “not a whole lot we can do”.
Which seems bizarre, when a person running a puppy mill, or beating their cat with a hose, or allowing a dog to starve in their care, can earn themselves a fine and even jail time, or be banned from owning animals.
Denis Leary did a “funny because it’s true” bit in his Special “No Cure for Cancer”, where he aptly observed, “We only wanna save the cute animals, don’t we?” But I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s not just an animal’s (or human’s) cuteness factor that impacts how much we empathize or don’t with them. It’s a whole host of perceptions we have regarding their functions, roles, inner workings (if any), contributions, harmfulness, strengths and weaknesses, that combine to formulate our ability to value them as beings in their own right, rather than translating their existence solely into a function of their usefulness or harm to us.
The turtle may be cute, but it’s also food. Its role and function in relation to us is to be used and consumed by us. It’s cold-blooded, with the soulless personality of any reptile, and not even smart enough to be litter trained. It is perceived to be emotionally dead, therefore its pain is presumed to be non-existent, and its entire being alien to our own experience. And while us westerners have long had the luxury of caring about the survival and wellbeing of species other than our own, I’m not sure there’s even an agency equivalent to the SPCA in China. Their culture is still largely one of seeing animals primarily for their utility, as we used to. There’s probably not a lot of lambs or calves with names there, because when you name your food, it’s a lot harder to butcher it. You’ve turned it into a “who” rather than a “what”.
When it comes to cruelty to pets, well, things look very different to us. Our pets’ roles and functions feed our humanity–love, affection, companionship. We don’t keep them around for their utility, but for the joy they give us. We admire their attributes, and relate to their rich, emotional lives. And oddly, because we don’t “need” them, because they serve no practical purpose, perform no necessary labor, and are even burdens on us…we seem to value them all the more. We often respect their feelings and desires too much, and allow them to get fat, or become the “boss of the house”.
I used to be confused by the tendency of society–both the male and female halves of it–to over-empathize with women and not empathize at all with men, but the more I think about the turtles in the Chinese market, and the baby boy strapped screaming to a board, the more clear my thoughts become, and at the same time, the more complex.
What is “male”? What attributes do our biology and our culture assign to maleness, and why?
Strength. Independence. Self-determination. Toughness. Courage. Threat. Ruthlessness. Danger. Competence. Ambition. Predation. Reticence. Stoicism. Anger. Aggression. Violence. Perseverance. Invulnerability. Utility. Protection. Self-sacrifice. All of this is “male”.
Can such a being even feel pain? And if he does, why should we care? More importantly, can we, and have we ever been able to, afford to care?
A huge part of the role men played for ages of our evolution involved them not just being agents acting upon the outside world, but also absorbing violence, risk, pain and damage, from nature, other humans, or their own labors, so that women wouldn’t have to.
How could society’s expectation of a man to willingly, bravely, uncomplainingly stand in front of a woman and act as her shield, face the elements and possible death on a game trail to act as her spear, work his hands bloody to act as her scythe, bend his back to act as her ox, sit hungry and cold and scared in a trench to act as her curtain wall…how could this expectation exist and be enforced, if we felt real empathy for that man, if we saw him as a being in his own right, worthy of humanity just because he was human, if we valued him as much as we did the uses he could be put to, or if his suffering truly mattered to us?
How can we expect him–command him–to suffer for the benefit of women and society if we care about sparing him pain? If we could climb into his skin and imagine ourselves there, experience the full spectrum of the fear he hides, the pain he conquers, the anguish he suppresses, the loneliness he buries, the helplessness he denies?
In Africa, there is a growing movement on the part of aid agencies and federal bodies to put an end to the barbaric practice of female genital mutilation. At the exact same time, there is a program supported by the World Health Organization to implement widespread infant circumcision (the mutilation that isn’t), for the benefit of African society.
I think of that male baby, strapped to a board while his male part is cut from him, his screams as ineffectual as the squirming of a turtle with its shell stripped off, the voice of the doctor, no different in cadence or tone from the voice of the market vendor saying, “but it’s only a turtle.”
And the only way it makes any sense at all to me is to conclude that the maleness of that cut somehow transforms his suffering from that of a baby, which we might care about, into that of a male. It’s beneficial, not just to him, but to society. Even if it isn’t. Because a little male suffering never hurt anyone, right?
And I imagine the mother of that baby holding him afterward, consoling him even as she praises, “that’s my good, brave boy, my tough little guy…” and admonishing him not to cry.
I’ve been called a lot of things since I started writing about men’s issues: sexist, misogynist, hateful, unfeeling, sociopathic, insensitive, uncaring, even inhuman. And the most telling thing is that these accusations are most commonly made when I empathize with men or boys, without empathizing with women and girls more.
I don’t know how to teach society to feel any empathy for men. I don’t know that it’s a thing that can be taught. I only know that this lack of empathy for men, and society’s pathological outpouring of empathy for women, lies at the very heart of every major men’s rights issue, the wellspring of each injustice I see, and is the foundation of the wall that stands between men and real equality.
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Shrek6:
laddition:
Andy Bob:
Correctrix:
Rad:
Hey, another kick arse female MRA. Welcome.
Love your vids, and your blog.
A big smile split my face in two when I seen your name on this article, then I skimmed it a bit, and typed this……now I’ll go back and read it all properly…..I know it’s good.
Great article. Glad you are writing for AVFM!
I’ve just started reading a few articles from your blog. Thoughtful, intelligent stuff there!
Superb article, GWW, and I also love your blog.
The words you spoke in your Coming Out video, something about “We live in a society that simply does not allow women to fail no matter how badly they fuck up” really hit it out of the park.
Happy Holidays!
Great article and welcome to the team.
Trust me, what you have brought up is “the” issue for the MRM. I have lived this myself in the last few weeks. I have been attempting to get my businesses flex spending account setup so that I can use it to go to a special clinic that deals in natural treatment of thyroid disorders. Guess what, only women in our FSA have their choice over their preferred treatment plan (granted this is pregnant mothers). It’s amazing, I could get better with very little hassle, but I’m not allowed to because I’m not female.
Disgusting.
Very moving article. This place just keeps getting better!
“In Africa, there is a growing movement on the part of aid agencies and federal bodies to put an end to the barbaric practice of female genital mutilation. At the exact same time, there is a program supported by the World Health Organization to implement widespread infant circumcision (the mutilation that isn’t), for the benefit of African society.”
I will stand up for the men in my back yard, before I seek to impose will on another society. We must help ourselves before we help others or they will become as misguided as we are.
@girlwriteswhat, your writing and insight is superb. Encore
Welcome GWW! Great, great piece. The absolute insanity of a man’s emotional pain being taboo in our culture is indeed embedded in just about every issue we face. You have cut to the core and I thank you for that.
The bottom line is that men are the white mice. You can see what I mean here http://menaregood.com
I’ve been personally circumcised during infancy for my “Health Benefit” even though as my parents described to me that I was crying louder then when I was born. I couldn’t understand the point of it since if its natural to the human body, why destroy it.
I think its the same for beards in a way too (i know, weird way to compare it) but after the world wars when soldiers were required to be clean shaven so that they can put their gas mask’s on quicker its seems after that beards were considered “lazy” or that of hobo’s and Hippies.
Xnomolos, the “clean shaven soldier” wasn’t about the ease of putting on the gas mask. A beard interferes with the seal of the mask – and since air is sucked through the filters, a leaky edge will let air (and any gas in the air) into the mask. Rendering it ineffective, and rendering the wearer victim to whatever gas is being used.
I found this out scuba-diving, because I have a mustache that lets water leak into my mask.
well i guess i wasn’t very descriptive on what i meant yet thank you for correcting me.
While there’s a double standard about shaving – women shaving their legs = oppression, men shaving their faces = no big deal – cutting hair is not the same as cutting flesh. It doesn’t cause pain, and it grows back.
I was fortunate enough that my father didn’t see any point to having his sons circumcised, because there isn’t one, I don’t care what any doctor says. My foreskin has never caused me any problems, and I don’t foresee that it ever will. (Although I suppose woman would consider it weird-looking, but none of them have ever seen it, and they probably never will.)
The only thing circumcisions accomplish is the diminishing of pleasure from stimulation for men, while female circumcision, being the surgical removal of the clitoris, is considered so abominable that doing it will land you a prison sentence.
The reason for this is pretty obvious to me: Men are allowed to have their sexual pleasure impacted by society, and women are not. Our pain is to be ignored, our pleasure is to be lessened, and our disposability is to be a fact of life.
But not for much longer. Not as long as we MRAs continue to spread. Not as long as we refuse to give up. We will win this.
During a circumcision that I observed for class, I asked the pediatrician who was performing the procedure whether the medical support for circumcision was legitimate. As he performed the procedure, he answered no and that he did not circumcise his sons.
The only reason I accept as semi-valid is doing it for religious reasons. Funny thing is, I have never heard one person give a faith-based reason. I am not religious, but I respect the constitutional right to be.
So if a religious custom was to put a hot iron to the rectum of female babies would you accept it as “semi-valid?”
No jackass, I would not. Of the crappy reasons I hear justifying circumcision, it is the least offensive and honest.
So, “because my imaginary friend said so” is what you consider the “least offensive” reason? You need help.
Wow, two readers don’t accept the Bill of Rights. Are we so anti-religion here that one cannot say that he respects the premise of freedom of religion? I was not advocating a religious basis for circucision. I was saying that it makes more sense than simple cosmetic surgery on a neonate. At least the parent is being honest rather than justifying his or her decision with bad medical information.
Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Know your rights.
I have to say that religion is one of the worst reasons to mutilate a child.
For the life of me, I am at a loss to name a good reason.
I am just loving the way words are being put in my mouth here. I also love the way two guys I never read a comment from until a few days ago are attacking me as if I were anti-male, pro-circumcision, and a religious zealot. I am not sure if you fellas even read my comments before posting, but in the event that you did, fuck you. Spend some of that MRA energy doing something to fight feminism and misandry rather than engaging in fratricide.
Interestingly the child’s right to choose his religion and to keep his foreskin is forever removed by the parent’s freedom of choice. The Bill of Rights is broken right there, which is why the mutilation should be deferred to adulthood and performed only under the consent of the subject. Could we not say that denying some religious practices upholds the freedom to choose one’s religion?
Hayden, I do not understand why you’re swearing at me. I was correcting you with respect to the second amendment. To quote you, “The only reason I accept as semi-valid is doing it for religious reasons…..am not religious, but I respect the constitutional right to be.” Well the second amendment allows you the freedom of religion – yes, but it also protects you FROM religion. The point I’m trying to make is that people misinterpret the SECOND amendment as freedom for religions to do whatever they want – when it is, instead, to protect you from that very tyranny.
Don’t sweat it, Hayden, I know your intentions were good and your anecdote is an excellent example of the point. The minor discord is a product of miscommunication that happens sometimes when we speak in abbreviated articulations, such as in comment sections.
Many Cheers
You are right. I will let it go. It probably is a failure communication on my part. The situation is almost comical, as I am anti-circumcision and an atheist.
However, the document that protects religious freedom also protects speech. The MRM may find itself relying heavily on the First Amendment in the days ahead, and I would hope that individual MRAs realize that they cannot pick up one end of that legal stick without the other.
@ Hayden
Not a failure on your part, just a practical shortcoming of discourse. It’s impractical to flesh out every expression in detail. Sometimes we just have to go with the gist of it, and I got your gist : )
And I totally agree with you regarding The Constitution, absolutely. Ron. Paul.
Equa1, my cursing was not directed at you, and I agree with your constitutional statement about freedom of and protection from religion. My anger came from the reply that used the typical gender switch to female to evoke sympathy and shame. I am completely and unapologetically sympathetic to boys and men. One does not have to make a hypothetical victim female to get my attention.
“Freedom of religion” does NOT include mutilating children. I would also disagree that it “makes more sense” than “simple cosmetic surgery”. At least cosmetic considerations can be justified in the real world instead of on some ethereal plane where an imaginary friend purportedly runs the universe. “Honesty” is not a consideration for the offense of mutilating infants.
During a circumcision that I observed for class, I asked the pediatrician who was performing the procedure whether the medical support for circumcision was legitimate. As he performed the procedure, he answered no and that he did not circumcise his sons.
He objects to it being done to his sons, but not to those of others? That is fucking cold.
I don’t accept religion a valid reason (or excuse, as I like to call it) for doing anything that involves the bloodshed of another human being. You (not you specifically, Hanna) want to whip yourself with a cat of nine tails in front of a painting of Jesus while screaming out scripture? Have fun. But don’t you dare do it to a child.
This was well said, and I regret that I was not able to do likewise. You have accurately stated my feelings at the time and my present view on the matter. Thank you.
Any time.
OK Hayden, your mea culpas have been noted…
But you have got to agree a foreskin is a terrible price to pay because her Second Amendment Rights allow Mama and her ignorant sister-mothers to consign their brand new little guys to the penis butchers.
So Hayden, why not address his (these little guys’) rights? After all, he’ll be the one, who will suffer the sexually crippling effects of her ignorant decision all through his life.
She won’t.
Horrific as the circumcision procedure sounds, for an infant – I would imagine it to be worse for a Muslim boy, who is circumcised at 12 years old. That is a CONSIDERABLE sacrifice for the sake of religious purity!!!
Muslims do it at all sorts of ages.
Here’s an interesting website run by Muslim opponents of circumcision. (Muslims are responsible for about two thirds of all circumcisions worldwide.)
http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html
I had a similar response to seeing a circumcision video on YT, to the author of this article. In fact that was what opened my eyes to the disposable nature of the male. An unfocused sense of disquiet was crystallised into opposition to misandry.
No BeijaFlor, it is terrible, but it’s not worse than neonatal circumcision…
when born the prepuce is fused to the head (glans) of his penis, exactly the same way as your fingernail is fused to its pad beneath. The neonatal foreskin will be removed by first forcibly separating it from its underneath pad and then, excising (slicing) it off. This “lifting off” of the foreskin from the attached glans is where the severe pain occurs. (try lifting your fingernail from your finger).
As a boy matures, the prepuce naturally frees itself from the glans and allows manual retraction. I am not saying that a twelve year old’s prepuce is completely free, but getting circumcised at that age is easier to do for the circumciser and is a lot easier on the little guy pain-wise.
It’s still stupid, regardless.
Hayden, But to an infant? The infant boy has no choice, is at the mercy of his parents and obviously can’t speak for himself. This is to me unjustifiable in any case. If it’s religious, then let him decide for himself when he is a fully matured adult.
To justify a harmful procedure otherwise is an affront to his humanity. Tawil has an excellent post on this subject. Alexithymia is one reason why infants shouldn’t under any circumstances, be circumcised.
Excellent article. In the past society repaid its men for the sacrifices it required of them by allowing them to make the decisions as to when these sacrifices might be required of them and what those sacrifices might be. Men voted. Men participated in government. Men made their career choices.
Today we are pushing them aside. We shove them out onto the streets. We lock them away in prison. We find ways to push them out of the office and the education system. We even look for ways to place women ahead of them in the political system. We not only request, but in some cases demand, that they sacrifice the the privilege they once had to make decisions about all those sacrifices they are required to make.
I have often tried to define what it is to be “male.” There are lots of ways to define the experience, but my definition requires that it be something that excludes the “female.” There must be a difference. That difference is sacrifice to society. It is required of the male. It always has been. With the female it has never been required, but always voluntary.
TDOM
Excellent comment.
I don’t completely agree. There were sacrifices women made that were expected of them (though not as onerous as those expected of men).
Women were no more free to choose their husbands in many cultures than men were to choose their wives (and in some socioeconomic circles, men had a great deal more choice than women). Women were expected to have provide their husbands with sex, even if they hated it, and expected to provide their husbands with children (even though it was not uncommon to die in childbirth). Women were expected to defer to the authority of their male guardians or husbands (at least regarding important matters). Women were expected to facilitate society’s duty to keep them safe by not putting themselves at unnecessary risk, even if that meant they could not go where they wanted when they wanted. They were expected to remain chaste until marriage and faithful within it.
There is little that is voluntary on the part of a woman in an arranged marriage, or in a culture where sex ed consists of “just lie back and think of England, dear” on a wedding day.
Women’s families (led by husbands, fathers or brothers), and all of society held them accountable when they did not live up to these expectations. Single, sexually active women and single mothers were shunned and stigmatized, a woman who did not put out in marriage was reminded of her “duty” even by female relatives, and expected to suck it up.
The sacrifices, expectations and obligations were different, but they were there.
Today, there are no expectations of women (even though we hold men obligated to a woman’s whim). That’s one of the major problems facing us. We’re not *allowed* to demand anything of women, either as a group or as individuals.
Today, there are no expectations of women (even though we hold men obligated to a woman’s whim). That’s one of the major problems facing us. We’re not *allowed* to demand anything of women, either as a group or as individuals.
Hit the nail right on the head with that one.
Essentially, feminism triggered a power grab by women, it incited them to assume a man’s role, but they didn’t actually complete the task. In order for men and women like to be liberated, they basically have to switch places. Men turn into homemakers, and women turn into bread-winners. It would work, I think. But that hasn’t happened yet, and it won’t under feminism’s regime.
Instead, women have simply demanded they be allowed to encroach upon a man’s job and be relieved of all expectations placed upon them, while simultaneously saying “Hell no!” to the idea of men doing the same. This devalues men to great extent, since opportunities for a sexual partner diminish for heterosexual men the lower their annual income is. If equality truly existed, it wouldn’t be that way. If feminism had ever been about fairness, hypergamy in women would’ve ceased to exist long ago. Women would’ve gained the desire to fully assume the responsibilities of men by marrying down the ladder. But they didn’t want to do that, because they never wanted the responsibility, just the power.
We have two options moving forward: Either remove female hypergamy, or convince them to resume their traditional role and forget all about doing a man’s job. I vote for the former, since it would bring about a better type of partnership between the sexes.
This presumes that hypergamy is a side effect of feminism. I would argue that hypergamy in women is just as biological as women seeking a mate who is taller than they are. If the feminist revolution ended tomorrow women would still seek out the doctor, the Alpha male, the professional basketball player.
http://theincendiaryinsight.blogspot.com/2011/11/alpha-male-origins-hypergamy-vs.html
No.
We can’t liberate both genders without eliminating the traditional expectations of both genders, and to do that, hypergamy needs to go.
If that’s impossible, then things need to go back to the way they were. Men go to work, women take care of the kids. I consider that a shitty option, so I vote for the death of hypergamy and the release of men from being nothing more than relentless drones.
The death of feminism won’t necessarily end hypergamy, but it will be a nail in it’s coffin.
My own mother has told me that even if circumcision does harm boys and reduce male sexual function, she really doesn’t care because it serves as “payback” for “centuries of oppression of women.”
And yes, she had me circumcised.
Your mother’s comment does not surprise me. I hear like statements from women all the time. Female nurses are twice as bad. Just raise the subject with a group of women and sit quietly listening. The female mentality seems to be collective and almost uniform. When I can tell a woman supports circumcision out of stupidity, I try to educate her against it. For the slow learners here, women do not love you. Look at their actions and not their words. It is incredibly depressing at first but gets much easier as it sinks in.
“For the slow learners here, women do not love you. Look at their actions and not their words. It is incredibly depressing at first but gets much easier as it sinks in.”
Breath it in.
I want to add from personal observation during nursing school that those infant boys feel pain. The practice makes me sick.
I do not assume that either men or women have a capacity to care about men. I observe their actions, and then I decide.
I didn’t mean you. I thought your story made a good point in general. I apologize for any perceived insult as none was intended.
I didn’t take it as an insult.
I was simply saying that people have to prove to me they have a heart. My default assumption is that they don’t.
I’m not sure what the regard which females hold for males should be called- ‘leveraged utility maybe’- but the overwhelming body of evidence indicates that it is clearly, not love. Men, on the other hand, do, in fact, develop powerful and sincere concern for females, women; a concern rightfully referred to as ‘love’.
This despite all of the mythology and propaganda we’ve been sold.
I can’t remember where I read it, but one of the guys here linked a blog that stated it perfectly. For the few fortunate men who have female family members who “love” them, they must accept that that is because you share their genes and their future lives in you. You will never be loved like that by another female (or words to that effect). However, I am leaving the subject of the article with this type of comment and possibly exceeding the scope of the MRM with comments such as this. I recognize the need to focus.
You will never be loved like that by another female (or words to that effect).
I wasn’t even loved like that to begin with. Not by a female at least.
Brilliant Hayden. This is precisely the lesson that life has brutally teaches us, one way or another. Biggest crackup in the world how females seek and demand unconditional love, without the slightest intention or inclination of reciprocating. For Men, ‘love’ is always conditional, contingent upon..
As we reflect, it becomes abundantly clear that the plight of Men is quite not characterized by ‘privilege’, maybe something more along the lines of ‘grueling’..
“You will never be loved like that by another female (or words to that effect).”
This is worth meditating on as I think it’s core to the male experience. And the source of much consternation as men go through life seeking that unconditional love from whence they came (best case scenario), frustratingly, to no avail as it is nowhere to be found. For the female, on the other hand, it’s found every time she turns around. Isn’t equality just so equal?
Oh. My. God.
Oh, I’m only scratching the surface on my mother. Currently, I’m getting accused of being selfish and ungrateful because I don’t want to provide her grandchildren to dote on.
Plus I was told my entire childhood, up to the age of 15, that I was a “mistake.”
I think your mother and my mother should get together and go bowling.
I’m going to have to deal with the whole “Y u no have kids?” thing for the rest of my life, most likely. Except that my father’s the one bothered by my lack of desire for children, since I don’t talk to my mother.
Granddaughters to dote on, you mean, and grandsons to avenge herself (and all women) on?
The sad thing is, she would be better with my sons (if I had any) more than she doted on me. She ceased the majority of her psychological abuse of me about fifteen years ago.
There is several generations of mental illness, as well as a history of mothers abusing sons, on her side of the family. For instance, her great-grandmother regularly hit my grandfather’s brother on the head with a metal sculpture. My mother’s sister became bipolar and schizophrenic and started physically abusing her son (my cousin.) I think the latter served as somewhat of a “mirror” for my mother so she cleaned up the worst of her abuse towards me.
She still has never apologized to me though.
Me too!! I joined the breakfast club of turtle-boy mistake babies when I learned that I was the should-have-been-abortion, but my mother’s parents were Catholic and would have taken her out of their will if she had went through with it. Justice was served though – she didn’t get one penny of her “inheritance” in the end. The church and nursing home got it all! LOL
And I just need to say what a FANTASTIC article from Girl Writes What! I’m an instant fan and I can’t wait to read your blog.
Im a protestant, but in that case, the catholic church actually did something good
Masculinity is heroic because simply surviving as a male borders on miraculous.
…
It amazes me how feminists are able to justify misandry (when they even acknowledge is exists, which is rare) through all the so-called oppression of women throughout history. How they can say such things with a straight face is just… appalling.
I will cheer louder than anyone the day I no longer hear woman talk about oppression. I don’t want to hear it any more. I don’t deserve to. I’ve never done anything remotely oppressive towards a woman in my entire life, and yet nearly every day for over twenty years I’ve had to hear about any hardships men endure these days is deserved because some men who were dead before I was even born did some bad stuff to women who were dead before most of today’s women were even born.
I’ve never hurt a woman in any way in my entire life, and yet so many of them seek to punish me, care not for any suffering I endure, based entirely on the fact that I was a born a man.
Is that not the very definition of sexism you stupid feminists? I know you’re reading this, you’ve been sending your agents in here to get us riled up. Stop persecuting us because we have dicks.
It simply does not matter how much ethos, pathos, and logos we try to throw at them. They do not care because either they do not have a capacity to care, or because they have chosen not to care. And currently, the powers that be in our society exploit and reward their lack of a heart.
I’m beginning to think that to be a man is to have a conscience, because it seems to me that woman at large do not possess one.
Yeah, I think that’s how I’m going to define a man from now on. By the presence of a conscience.
Considering their slogan is “morality is for chumps”, yeah I’d say you’re on point with that.
My hunch is it’s two parts lack of capacity and one part there’s nothing in it for them, or maybe vice versa.
“payback” for “centuries of oppression of women.” Ye right! My mum and sister always justify circumcision on men (it’s cleaner, less disease and the usual the cock) sister had both her sons done.
My mum, always gives me the message that women are a superior than men, smarter, and the usual cock…..and almost always excuses women, if you know what mean, sister no better, changed her religion because her new religion is “most fair” to women than her former.
Given my experience with mum, grand mum, aunts, sister, other women in my life and the damn male feminist in my family and outside, I’m struck, that I’ve not taken out all this on my wife and maybe in the future, daughter.
Also, GWW, welcome to AVfM, it’s really, really, good to know and reassuring, that there are women like you who beg to differ with the “norm”. And do keep up with your good writing and videos!
I don’t know if my mother considered my circumcision as “payback for oppression of women,” and as she “went West” in 2002, I shall never know. I suspect she had me cut because it was just the normal thing at that time. Dunno if my father had been circumcised too – and frankly it’s immaterial at this time.
Yeah, great…. One-day-old babies oppress women and should face their “pay back.” Outstanding.
My mother has the same views. She has almost completely quit speaking to me since she found out that I am part of this movement which is, according to her, misogynistic. Two weeks ago, she even told me that
she wishes she had been sterilized and never brought me into the world because she had failed as a parent as evidenced by my “hatred of women.”
She will not argue a single point of the MRM; she only uses shaming and accuses me of hating women. When I tell her about falsely-accused men, she says, “It’s about time men learn something.” She has seen none of my videos and refuses to watch any video by any MRA.
I cannot believe that I am writing about this here. I guess I feel like I can trust the people on this forum to not use this testimony from me as an opportunity to make me feel even worse, unlike any mainstream forum. Hopefully some dissenter will not prove me wrong.
Ben, it saddens me to hear you have to endure this, how painful coming from your own mother. My interpretation is that she is deeply infected with feminist/chivalrous ideology, very female-centric, to the exclusion of the humanity of males and appreciation for them as fully human beings, entitled to all the dignity thereof. It’s tragic and you are in good company here.
It places men in an extremely difficult situation, to have an indebtedness and love for a person who facilitated their lives when they were completely vulnerable, yet holds contempt for what they are. This is a near untenable and irreconcilable position to be in. Men somehow have to find a way to navigate it and come to peace with it. I believe that men’s relentless insistence on their own humanity and dignity will ultimately win the day, and even mothers will be susceptible to such a compelling force. Men must simultaneously appreciate their mothers and come to terms with their fallibility- they are still females and they can still be wicked. Many mothers do not really identify with the male experience, they cannot fully be expected to. Thus the importance of fathers.
Ben, with treatment like that it’s no wonder you are here in the first place!
Men with disapproving and/or feminist mothers often go on to become champions of male welfare and equality… they know first hand what it is like to experience disrespect, disparagement and neglect.
You are not alone, Ben.
That sounds exactly like my own experiences on the subject mother versus mens rights.
Equality is not for sons, only for daughters.
The ultimate betrayal from the person who claims to love you the most.
-Yeah, right..!
Excellent article,GWW.
Looking forward to reading more from you.
Ben,
I understand where you’re coming from. You expect support from those you love not to be kicked in the nuts. Most women will put their entitlements before their own sons. The sisterhood is more inportant than their own flesh in blood. It sounds like your mother is no exception.
She said some very spiteful things to you. This is a show down. Stand your ground. If you wouldn’t put up with this behaivor from your girlfriend don’t put up with it from your mother. Don’t think for a momnet that mothers don’t pull shit tests on their sons to see how much they love them. To drop a bomb like this druing finals week is SOP. This is a complete power play on her part to control you.
My two cents, I would break off contact until I got a sincere apology. If you get one, your relationship will be better for it. If you don’t, she’s a man hater and cannot be fixed. Be prepared to walk away if you have to. That’s how I’d play it. It’s up to you.
- Pat
Dude, that’s messed up. I am really sorry that you have to deal with that kind of attitude from your mom. No one should say that to their child.
Hey, Ben. I’m sorry to hear of your mom’s reaction. I wonder if you had said that it was you that was falsely accused and were going to jail for a long time if she would still feel the same way. Just remember, you have tons of support here.
Its a bitter pill for feminist mothers to swallow. My mother was very much in the 60-70′s marches stage of feminism. I now no longer accept shaming and blaming and call BS whenever I know it to be untrue. She will have to evolve. Just as I did when she and others like her unleashed this monstrous demon upon me. It wasnt a problem for her then and it is not my problem now. I do treat her with “kid gloves” to some degree in such matters but refuse to cowtow to shaming and blaming. Of course that is all feminist women have and it seems all she is interested in is a new way to find traction to lure me back to the (in her opinion) loving arms of feminism. I wish her luck she will need it. My childhood and my fathers life was treated pretty brutally in those “loving arms”
All men MUST be made to realize, that MOST women and ALL mothers are, to some extent, TOXIC to our mental and physical health.
My own mother has told me that even if circumcision does harm boys and reduce male sexual function, she really doesn’t care because it serves as “payback” for “centuries of oppression of women.”
And yes, she had me circumcised.
and you still have dealings with her?????
Powerful article. When I debate with people I’m often struck by how, if they only actually gave a shit about men, they would understand what I’m saying.
That blindness is terrifying.
Welcome to A Voice for Men, GWW!
Love your blog, and your videos.
I wish we had ten more of you.
Study Links Circumcision to Personality Trait Disorder: http://intactnews.org/node/131/1316710012/study-links-circumcision-personality-trait-disorder
Researchers find circumcised men have higher alexithymia scores than intact men. Alexithymia is the inability to process emotions.
Circumcision is little more than an attempt to castrate male emotion…. and it works. Emotionless males are less self-interested and thus great slaves, just like the eunuch servants of old.
Circumcision entails physical and emotional trauma, as suggested by the presence of alexithymia in the above study. The vast majority of alexithymia is trauma based. Circumcised males display the same emotional numbing as war veterans suffering severe posttraumatic stress disorder (50% of all PTSDs suffer clinical alexithymia , otherwise labelled ‘emotional numbing’).
Who would have thunk it, the turtle does feel after all… but only until the emotional numbness kicks in.
Your “alexithymia” reference reminds me, almost as a shock, of the Scientology-auditor training that I had in place of college. There was a great emphasis on “TRs”, or Training Routines, that were directed at helping an “auditor” (spiritual counselor) to suppress and negate any emotional response he-or-she might have to ANYTHING the “preclear,” or person-in-counseling, might say or do!
The easiest way I found to suppress that response was to numb myself to emotional response in the first place. A pretty common interpretation, because we’d spend so much of our time “bull-baiting” each other, searching for something that elicited an emotional response, then riding it so hard and relentlessly that we’d “flatten” the response by sheer repetition, in effect wearing it out.
“Alexithymia,” an all-too-obvious emotional deficiency, being turned into a social good and a valuable trait in the Scientology “auditor” (spiritual counselor) …
The suppression of emotional response in Scientology is common to many spiritual traditions- for instance Buddhists might treat emotion as illusory and prescribe detachment from it. The current psychotherapeutic fad of “mindfullness” is another example. This kind of emotional detachment is closer to stoicism than to alexithymia… stoicism rests on the idea that you must first identify your emotional arousal in order to resist it or control it, whereas a person suffering alexithymia cannot identify the emotion to begin with, so has no control over whether they do, or don’t, resist emotions… it’s a complete emotional blindness.
Stoicism is useful in the right measure as it fosters forbearance, tolerance, and healthy emotional control in stressful situations. However it’s equally important to allow some emotional expression as emotions indicate what is important to you…. and you won’t know what is important unless you allow them some air-time: jealousy, anger, fear, love etc. all tell us something.
So the ideal mix is a balance of stoic control on the one hand, and free emotional expression on the other. There is nothing wrong with male stoicism -despite what women say about men being “unemotional”- and it is important to remember that negative emotional expression (eg. violence or rage) or verbal skill in expressing feelings does not guarantee healthy interaction with others – as in the example of ‘manipulators’ who misuse the language of emotional expressiveness to exploit or domineer others (sorry girls, emotional expression isn’t always “good”).
Anyways I’m raving. The main difference is that to act stoically is a choice, whereas alexithymia is not a choice but a reaction to trauma, eg. circumcision.
Hope that made sense.
At risk of momentarily giving into chivalrist potentials- girlwriteswhat, fuckin’ hell yeah!
“I don’t know how to teach society to feel any empathy for men. I don’t know that it’s a thing that can be taught.”
GWW – It’s something that certainly can be (re)taught: During the period I was growing up (1952-1969), yes, men were held to the macho role – we had peacetime conscription, as well as registration for all men 18-19 years old then: But they were also considered to be 3 dimensional beings – capable of rational, civilized articulation and consciousness, as well as smelting steel; of a genius for Art and Beauty, as well as for killing; of romantic soul, as opposed to pragmatic shrewdness (the latter attribute associated with *women* as often or more often than with men in those days).
In the ensuing decades, we witnessed a *learning process*, a completely synthetic and artificial imposition on Society called Feminism and feminization, concocted by neo-Marxist-Engelians in the universities, and executed, like the cooks boiling the frog, by degrees, in the media. With mention of “Media”, “Universities”, in addition to the subject of your excellent Post, the knee-jerk (with emphasis on “jerk”) part of me tends to forget that my best and dear friend of 45 years is Jewish, and that I know better…so I’d better quit here.
Again, wonderfully articulate and passionate debut article, Girl. It will be such as you who help our desperate society relearn 3-dimensional, respectful regard for men.
Then … there’s hope???!!!
JinnBottle, I have utterly given up on the notion that Society might have any empathy for men, or at least for me. In fact, I’m not sure I have all that much empathy for myself … I do, indeed, put the needs and even the emotional reactions of my “loved ones” in front of my own needs or hopes or fears or desires.
This is one overwhelming reason why I will not ever get married – or even place myself into an intimate and emotionally-charged relationship with a woman! I have learned that my genetic survival or happiness has zero, nada, zip-ski value – even in relation to a mother who could not leave any genetic heritage unless I, her only child, were to initiate it and pass it forward.
Compassion leads me to hope that my father had other offspring who passed on his genetic legacy. Because I will not – I accept it that no woman wants it of me.
Which leaves me free to live my life for ME!!
There is nothing like a good, intelligent and caring woman’s perspective to define, enlighten and move an indolent society off of its dead ass to realize the pain it inflicts on men. Thank you, Girl Writes What. for your moving and most human account of this very real atrocity.
Don’t you just cringe when you hear some women imply that they’d prefer their sons to be circumcised because they will be more desirable to women?
Their opinions are so, so sick aren’t they?
One just needs to reverse the genders to understand that!
Somewhere, I read that a man with an uncircumcised penis is gentler with it during sexual intercourse, thus providing more pleasure for his sex partner and himself. It makes a great deal of sense given that the foreskin contains most of the densely populated sensory nerve endings that not only give pleasure to the man but also enable him to be more aware of, and responsive to, his partner’s sexual pleasure as well. Sexual union all night, anyone?
That might explain my natural desire to be gentle in bed. If women only knew what they were missing out on, they just might have a better attitude about me…
I suppose those same women would find it acceptable for parents to give their young daughters boobjobs in hopes that they’ll be more attractive to men.
What do you mean no? It’s the same thing isn’t it?
Oh wait, you’re not allowed to force any decisions onto women. Stupid me. Men aren’t human, so it’s okay.
This is one of the best articles ive read on here in a very long time. And thats some tough competition.
Welcome to the fold, and i look forward to hearing from you in the future.
Thank you.
My ex “won” the debate about circumcision of our 2 sons ( she said it was happening they were “her “sons and that was that) , i wish i had been stroger then, and had taken the red pill, and had some mra material to help!
My father didn’t want me or my brother circumcised, but mum did, so we were. She has known since I was a young adult that I resent that. My son is not circumcised and I got all the bullshit from every female in the family…..and even the nurses at the hospital…..I adopted the strategy of accusing anybody who wanted him circumcised of being strangely and overly interested in my sons penis…..like they wanted it to conform to their preferences so they could make use of it in future. I made enemies…..but my son is not circumcised.
I declared so animately that my son was not to be circumcised that everyone’s jaw dropped and no one had another word to say on the matter. It was not done and no one has approached me after the fact about it. No one approaches a crazy fanatic… LOL
Bravo good sir. You did the right thing for your boy by standing your ground. Let’s just hope he doesn’t turn out to be an ungrateful shithead.
He is now 17 and is very fine. The schools and his mother have done a good job in teaching him about modern day women/feminist society. I only have to channel that resentment into positive action for men’s/human rights.
Interestingly, my daughter also recognized the bigotry the schools have for guys….
Brilliant, Stu. Love it.
Stu, that is absolutely lovely!
I mean, forcing anyone who wanted your son circumcised, to consider themselves viewed as a pederastic pervert!
Sincerely I hope that any “enemies” you made will live out a long, childless, sexless life, where their only “passion” comes from their own masturbation. Let them know my feelings and my expectations for my future – one of forced asexuality until I die.
The lust for power and simultaneous shirking of responsibility exhibited by so many women in so many households is just plain disgusting. When it comes to mutilating an infant boy’s genitals, he’s HER son, she gave birth to him. When he acts up at school, he’s his father’s problem, her claim to him dissolves for the time being.
Fucking revolting.
Having been without internet since last night, my delight at getting back my favorite entertainment and addiction was multiplied tenfold at discovering that we had finally managed to gain the powerfully empathetic and evocative talents of Girl Writes What.
Having been a fan of hers for some time now, I had even suggested with hand grenade subtlety on a thread of hers on reddit that she migrate this direction. Now with all the arrogance of the enemy, I will smugly insist on all credit for her arrival to our shores, regardless as to whether my one line suggestion had any influence on her decision, or if she even read the suggestion at all.
Welcome, Girl Writes What, even though it is like eating crow every time we Americans have to admit that anything good, remarkable, or any other word implying greater than mediocre, comes out of Canada. I’m sure that JtO can fill you in on the details.
Then, I thank the author of this article, and you as the first rate recruiter of said talented author. Well done.
Ok smarty pants……get christ0misty to come out of retirement and come here too.
LOL. She is the hotness, but I always figured she was computer generated by our sly Uncle Bern to get his message to a wider audience. Based on mind and body, she is kryptonite to MGTOW. I vote for not recruiting her, as it will be hard to think clearly with her roaming about.
Well said, Hayden, 0′misty is indeed smokalicious. As much as I hate to pump her level head up. That darn Bernardo ..
I don’t care what they say, testosterone makes the world go ’round.
Christy is hot looking, no doubt about that, but that isn’t the only thing that qualifies a woman as hot, I don’t know either personally, both would be great to have batting for us here at AVFM. But when it comes to hot…..or not….I’m betting GWW has more heat in her little finger LOL. She oozes hotness, but I don’t expect the young guys to know what I mean.
Yes, she is good looking but it was her message that kept me tuning in and hoping she will return. There are lots of good looking girls with YouTube accounts with enough baggage to sink the Titanic. I could give a rats ass about them.
Lots of Canadians hereabouts.
so THAT is why I keep smelling stale beer, fried ham, and maple syrup every time I log on!
You forgot the back bacon.
GWW,
I was both moved and enraged by your article. Moved to know that there women such as yourself in the world. It gives me great hope for the future of humanity.
I was enrage because as a younger man I have did witness such an act in person and thought just as the butcher did with the turtle. “What is a little cut? He will never remember anyways.”
Now in the past decade or so my views have changed and I have been called the same slanderous names that you yourself have been call. And now I harbor no anger, or ill will to those who have called me those things because by spitting that bile at me it just shows me that they are no worth considering. They have no ability to have a debate based on facts and reason, only lies and shame.
So thank you GWW and to all of the others out there who have drawn your Line in the Sand
Good article, girlwriteswhat. Your writing will be a great addition to this site. I am already anticipating the many interesting things that you will write here, since I have read so much from you on reddit and on your blog.
The routinization of male genital mutilation (under the vague-sounding euphemism “circumcision”) is one of the issues that I care the most about with respect to men’s rights. To me, it’s an issue of bodily integrity, the “do no harm” principle, and a gender equality issue since the female equivalent is banned in places where the male equivalent is a protected rite.
Recent statistics indicate that less than 50% of newborn males born in 2009 in the United States were circumcised. This means that in 20 years, when these males are entering college age, the majority of college-age males in the U.S. will be intact. That’s a pretty big deal.
I don’t want to get too graphic, but over the next 20 years, as this generation of males is starting to discover their bodies, the majority of them are going to be discovering that they have an uncircumcised penis. How long do you think the myths about how it’s unclean or that it smells or that it looks funny are going to last when that happens? Those myths will evaporate within a single generation, because it won’t reflect what those males are experiencing with their own bodies. When that happens, when the full force of that hits the culture, the circumcision rate is going to go even lower.
This is one of the few things where the next generation of males has it better than the past few. This is largely America-specific of course, since America is the only major industrialized country that practices routine infant circumcision.
“How can we expect him–command him–to suffer for the benefit of women and society if we care about sparing him pain?”
“If we could climb into his skin and imagine ourselves there, experience the full spectrum of the fear he hides, the pain he conquers, the anguish he suppresses, the loneliness he buries, the helplessness he denies?”
Two questions:
Is it because Women/Society …
Don’t Know, or
Don’t Care?
Its an important question to answer if we’re going to formulate how to effect change.
Care to help Girls Write What?
Excellent article.
Answer seems to be somewhere in the middle for most women: They just don’t *get* it. My wife, for instance, is naturally magnetized to All Things Child Development: Yet when it came to this issue, she thought that, since many men “have” (??) to have it done later in life anyway, that infant circumcision might be ok. *I* (who have little interest in developmental psychology) had to explain to *her* about how cutting up the foreskin of a consenting adult (even ASSuming it is indeed medically necessary), is worlds away, and dimensions less damaging, than forcing it upon a days’ old, preverbal infant – whose “not remembering it, anyway” only serves to make the trauma a hundredfold more malignant.
I have never heard that many men have to have a circumcision. More propaganda.
Propaganda is indeed the most apt description of such nonsense. No man has to have a circumcision at any point in his life, not unless his foreskin has cancer, or a flesh-eating virus, or something else that renders it better off removed. Barring any of that, it belongs right where it is.
Women seriously need a REAL education on men.
You know, JinnBottle, your mention of the infant “not remembering it, anyway” cues in a very fundamental recollection of a ‘religious philosophy’ that got used as an “example of excess” during the Frost-vs-Paul debates.
Dianetics, the progenitor of Scientology (where are you Alek when I need your comment?!!), held that the un-remembered incidents of pain and unconsciousness would have a tremendous, negative result upon our selves and our lives.
I would venture to say that the emotional negativity women ascribe to their fantasies of rape are roughly equivalent to the reality of circumcision – of penis-cutting – that might be experienced by a baby who would grow up to become a man!
I like you GWW. Women like you are worth listening to because you care. By understanding us, speaking for us, and fighting for us, you engender (or is that en-sex?) careful consideration in return.
I have to say when I seen the author of this artical I had to smile. I have welcomed you before in your videos to the cause of true equality and now I welcome you to the list of articulate and reasoned authors that grace us with their skills of writeing here for us every day at AVFM. Again Girl Writes What I welcome you.
I wonder if I’m allowed to say this. gww, you have delicious shoulders, well played. There, I said it.
OT:
http://www.register-her.com/
Prison psychologist accused of faking rape…
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9RHABMG0&show_article=1
iPhone records man being shot by crazed mother-in-law!
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/mother-in-law-shoots-son-654819
I was looking at a company that may interest individuals who have been a victim of circumcision. It is a company called Foregen, whos primary objective is foreskin reconstruction. Not cosmetic reconstruction, but actual reconstruction. The foreskin is not just a covering sheath. It contains three quarters of the nerve endings required for orgasm, as well as a complex system of blood vesicles, skin and connective tissue. It also contains a constricting muscle at the tip to hold it tight to the head. Its purpose is to prevent dirt from splashing on the mucus membranes on the head and outer edge of the urethral opening (a job now reserved by clothing) and to protect the nerve dense regions from desensitization (which is made worse by clothing). Foregen aims to reconstruct all of it. Their website is http://www.foregen.org/
Foregen is also looking for donations for the research. They started in 2010 and were hoping for 200K within the first to start their work. They have to date received 19k. A 50 dollar a year subscription will allow you to receive regular e-mail updates on their work and help to fund the research.
welcome to AVFM GWW
Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. I appreciate it.
Brutal Antipathy, yes I read your suggestion that I write for AVfM, though you were not the only one to suggest it, so you can’t take ALL the credit.
A few others steered me in this direction, and then JtO finally convinced me to take the step.
So here I am, neck extended, hoping I don’t let you guys down. I know this cause is right. I just hope I can serve it well.
Hugs, all.
I’m sure you will do fine. We are all counting on you to change the whole world and make everything ok for us btw
Hi GWW,
I enjoyed reading your article and have sent it to facebook friends to spread the worthwhile and well written message.
I have a question which may prove incentive for you writing another article or creating another video (or both) if you haven’t already done so on the topic I have in mind.
My question goes like this – MRA men will very often talk of an epochal event or series of events which when reflected upon gradually shifted them to realizing the existence of misandry at many levels and the need to overcome their conditioning to be chivalrous sacrificers to move beyond.
So I’m wondering since there are so VERY VERY VERY FEW women in western cultures who will do as you’ve done and publicly empathize with the modern male condition – what events led you to this place and how did you overcome cultural messages which would bar that?
I ask because I think the answers you provide will likely provide some insight into how female misandry is formed and how other women may move beyond it.
If I’m right about that, I think that would a be a very valuable thing to do.
Sorry GWW, but that is not how my ego is going to remember it.
Well, Brutal, feeding your ego IS my life’s one great purpose and all, so I suppose it’s okay. LOL
Fabulous article GWW. In my honest opinion, be glad you have never seen a circumcision up close and personal the way I have. Growing up in a conservative/orthodox jewish home, I have witnessed many a bris up close and personal and to me it was and still is disturbing.
I have always thought of it as cutting away part of his manhood and taking away a choice that should be his as an adult. This goes along the same lines as men being disposable. Their pain means nothing. They reason he is too little to remember or feel it. Hearing a child scream and scream after they have been cut, is one of the worst sounds a person could be subjected too. Maybe he won’t remember, but I do. It’s not something that one can easily forget.
I am glad I’ve never had to watch one in real life. More glad still that I was not the one strapped to the table and cut. I just don’t know how any mother could do that.
It’s one thing, I suppose, excusable in some way to me, when a woman exhausted from labor and emotionally spent is duped by a doctor who smoothly presents the “benefits” and glosses over all the risks. He’s the authority, and she knows “he’ll probably sleep right through it.”
But to have seen one, and then willingly put your own child through that. I spent hours in agony, giving birth to my children. How could I harm or cause pain to someone I worked so hard and went through so much to bring into the world? You’re a parent. That’s your child. It’s your job to protect him.
I watched one in the movie “Cut”, a bris. And after the baby was diapered again, someone said, “Who’s hungry?” I guess I just don’t understand it…how can someone say that, so casually, as if it’s just another party?
I’ve never had a child, so I don’t know what it’s like to be a mother, however as an aunt to 5 nephews and 4 nieces, I can’t bare to see them hurt or in any type of pain. Watching my sisters hold their boys on the table while the mohel hovers over their tiny body with a knife, made me throw up in the next room for a whole host of reasons. I am not a practicing jew, nor am I religious so when I pleaded with them at various times not to do this, it fell on deaf ears.
Yes, “lets eat” is the phrase you hear right afterwards, even when the child is still screaming in pain in the next room. I couldn’t eat and often wondered how anyone could and where the hell was their compassion for this child?
I am so glad BA moved us to Alaska. We are so far from my family and I have not had to witness the last bris which was a few years ago. BA would never have allowed us to go even if we did live close by because of how strongly we both feel about the whole ritualistic procedure.
Unfortunately, a lot of woman have learned to look at their children not as a tremendous responsibility, not as their foremost concern, not as the human beings they will never stop loving, but as a source of income, a type of accessory, an entitlement. Today’s women don’t treat their ability to reproduce with the amount of responsibility that they should. Today’s women lack any kind of real maturity, and it affects everyone around them, especially their offspring.
Feminism dictated that so much power over their own bodies be handed over to women, and without even trying to teach them the true meaning of responsibility with that power. Good one feminists. Really top notch work there.
can we all agree to stop calling it circumcision like it has some legitimacy or is “only” a medical procedure i call for anyone who reads this to start reffering to it for what it is male genital mutilation of infants. this whole thing of calling it circumcision skips past the outrage that it really is and i for one think we need to use a different term than circumcision. the pita people dont call it veal they call it baby lamb for a reason ,, just sayn
That is a good observation and a change in language worth adopting. I will start using the term “male genital mutilation” here and in all discussions off this site.
HEAR, HERE!!!
from wikipedia
“This article is about male circumcision. For female circumcision, see Female genital mutilation”
why do you think that is?
because feminists would never let an article about it fly without the outrage i feel about it…….
can this be disputed??? shouldn`t it already be disputed?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision
Yeh Rog, by any and all Legal Definitions,
CIRCUMCISION OF NEONATES IS A SEX CRIME, and the doctors and mohels who perform them should be prosecuted. Ignorant mothers who give consent are legally complicit as well.
The whole “Let’s eat!” thing brings to my mind the depiction of Vlad Tepes casually dining among a forest of impaled Turks.
http://www.aboutromania.com/VladTepesImpaleForest.jpg
Timely, bold, erudite.
Amazing piece.
This whole subject of Mlae infant sexual mutillation, is a VERY sore spot with me…
I definitely agree that the idea of male disposability begins with the medical industry’s pushing for male sexual mutillation as normal and a good thing.
Gotta get you mothers on board first, before we can begin a lifetimes’ worth of state sanctioned abuses against your sons, system wide, and in all areas of life, I suppose…(Don’t worry your pretty little heads about the concerns of the Father, they have no say in it…)
How the FUCK any new “mother” can be talked into chopping off pieces of her newborn male, and then sleep better than he will that night baffles me, to be all captain Obvious…
My own mother was, I imagine, ver easily talked into to sexually mutillating me when I was first born and I have NEVER forgiven her (I never will, either), in spite of her and many other of her defenders’ excuses (including, but not limited to: the birthing industry doktors, who “delivered” me and my own blue pill father, may God rest his weary soul ). Ridiculous, insulting excuses and justifications like:
“It’s more sanitary that way, with less complications later in life.” “He’ll thank you later.”
or
“Do you want your son to stand out in the locker room?”
or
“It’s helps prevent aids”
or even this little gem
“Women prefer the look of a circumsized penis”
It makes me gutsick, that so many of the “kinder”-”fairer”"gentler” sex are wayyyyyy on board with the idea of sexually mutillating their own sons, and then feeling all warm and fuzzy “down there” afterward.
You cunts disgust me!!!
Speaking of cunts that disgust me, I won’t even get into the heart breaking story of my two poor nephews, who had this crime commited against them by their own mother (my sister, yeah, I AM ashamed of her, btw), even as I protested pleaded and begged her not to do it…
Bovine stares, derision, scorn and the overt threat of male violence against me (by my “brother” in law), don’t even begin to cover the warm response I received…
Sick and heartbreaking.
When our own mothers are, 45 years later, still hapilly being talked in doing this to us, by the quacks in white lab coats, don’t sit back and wonder how ALL women view us anymore, okay?
That missing piece of your dick, that was galdly chopped off by your mother while you were a helpless infant should be a painful reminder of how the all view us:
DISPOSABLE!
I love reading an old school AVfM rant. I know the site and MRM are evolving, but a man needs to lay it out like this on occasion to keep his sanity in this man-hating world.
Thanks for the kind words Hayden.
I suppose I must make a lot of fellow commentors uncomfortable or even nervous and upset with some of my rantings and ravings, but I will no longer apologize for doing absolutely NOTHING wrong, other than to disagree with someone else’s opinion or delicate sensiblilites; which I have EVERY right to do, as long as I don’t advocate violence against anyone, which I absoultely DO NOT!
My advice to those who dislike me or disagree with either my particular message, or the way I deliver it, is to grow up, grow a pair and speak out honestly even if angrily and even though the scary, mean wimmin and manginas may scowl at you or even think you aren’t cool anymore for doing so…
Trust me, it will still be OKAY!
Great Post, DruidV. The disgusting truth of the whole thing with doctors is many of them aren’t looking out for the well being of their patients as they claim to be. Instead, they are selling procedures for their own financial benefit. With circumcision, it is outrageous hypocrisy that inflicts permanent injury on a infant no less.
Of course now doctors have developed a procedure that is said to partially restore a man’s foreskin. Clever, isn’t it. They collect money both ways, completely indolent of the harm they have caused in the first place.
Comments in this article are clear proof that MRAs don’t hate women, myth debunked.Girl Writes What has many fans.
Well said!
A huge part of the role men played for ages of our evolution involved them not just being agents acting upon the outside world, but also absorbing violence, risk, pain and damage, from nature, other humans, or their own labors, so that women wouldn’t have to.
and for the last fifty years you see and continue to see how we are been repaid.
Welcome GWW, one hopes your writings bring a Scrooge like epiphany to the misandrists who lurk on this board but I doubt it. The coal is too hard in their hearts and has turned into diamond tipped surgeons blades for the sole purpose of male mutilation on all levels.
Fear not my pessimistic glass half empty ramblings aside does not mean I have given up. I will certainly pass your column onto my younger brethren who have not yet ingested either pill.
Once again welcome!!!!!
I
Oh, I know. You still have to give up your seat in the lifeboat, but you get to hear the woman hollering, “ASSHOLE!” as your head goes under. Sweat deal.
Ha! Nice. I would not get up to give you my chair at the MRM table, but I would damn sure slide over to make room for you. You have real talent, insight, and wit, and I appreciate you applying it for the benefit of the MRM.
On a side note, where the heck is Fidelbogan? I have started to feel cheated if I don’t get to read one of his excellent comments to an article.
O
M
G
GirlWritesWhat is now part of AVfM!?!?
I love her. lol
When will AVfM’s explosive growth ever stop? The quality just keeps shooting up. Let me remind everyone. Just last week Fidelbogen joined the editorial board, and I won’t even mention all the other news in the meantime… wow…
My hope is the misandric bubble is about to burst and AVfM is just the needle to do it.
p.s.
People can check out her earlier stuff from this page:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/womens-voice/
Alek, maybe you can help hook up Gdub^2 and DrT w avatars. Yours contains a space and caps. In a fashion totally void of chivalry, of course.
I tried with Dr.T once, lol.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/updates/harriet-harmon-hatred-and-lies-from-the-top-down/comment-page-1/#comment-72459
Here’s the instructions on getting a gravatar:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/quick-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-61041
I swear on my PS3 that I followed the instructions and tired to get it to work for at least 15 minutes. I will try again. I have a really cool image from Dr. F that I want to use.
I am technologically challenged. That’s okay. I have other talents.
Dr.T
Feel free to email me if you get stuck.
GWW,
Thank you for putting together such a well written article.
I really appreciate your efforts. It is my sincere hope you are able to continue contributing to AVfM.
Ps am not sure but should as well credit and compliment you for some fine comments on the recent Barbra Kay article dealing with the Verizon propaganda fiasco. I noticed a commenter with the very same screen nic and thought perhaps it is you.
Yes it was me. As far as I know, there is only one girlwriteswhat.
Well written, very nice. A top executive once told me that during the 1970′s feminism with ‘girls can do anything’, girls were encourage do to boy things and congratulated when they beat a boy at something. But when a girl hurt herself while trying to beat a boy, the fathers would scold the boys saying, “You must protect her.”
…….
My prediction is that gay men will bring about men’s rights for the fact they are not focused on women but men and won’t be shamed as they gain status from the rough and tough of society that beat them up for being …. ‘THEMSELVES’.
But then again, male awareness is growing well and the younger generations are sharing their thoughts and feelings on things like, ‘Maleness’ and what it means to THEM, not society. Half the things you mentioned seem already off the list.
More articles.
I demand it.
That is all.
We decided to have my son circumcized when he was born 2yrs ago. Prior to his birth I considered myself a Christian. I went to church every Sunday. I made sure that he was baptized so that he could get into heaven. There was really no question that we wouldn’t have him circumcized. I asked my doctor about whether they would give him a local anesthetic. She claimed that they apply a rub-on anesthetic. When she brought my son back to the room his member was all guazed up and coated with vasaline. She told me he slept through the enire thing. The next day was torture. The gauze immediately began to stick to the wound. The nurse kept applying more vasaline while she try to get it off. He screamed at the top of his lungs. I almost hit her the second time she tried. My husband had to hold me back. I cried and started an argument with my husband b/c he held me off her. Haven’t been to church in over a year…
Yeah so? Do you want us to give you a cookie for that? Fucking cunt, you disgust me.
That’s not called for. She may have let her religion motivate her to have her son horribly mutilated, but at least she felt bad once she saw the reality of the procedure.
Not that I’ll be praising her for that, mind you. I just don’t feel that qualifies her as a “cunt”.
You clearly haven’t seen the drivel this sad excuse of a troll posts here on a regular basis. And being a Christian is no excuse, since I got baptized at the Church when I was a baby and my parents wouldn’t even THINK about mutilating me. Neither did the rest of my family or the priests at the church.
Although I’d use less direct language, I agree td9red’s past posting resembles trolling, so does not invite trust or goodwill.
I didn’t say her religion excuses her from judgement.
I’ve seen plenty of her posts. She may be horribly ignorant and blind to reality, but…
On second thought, yeah, I think troll will suffice.
Here is something folks should know about those topical pain medications, such as EMLA, used for male genital mutilation. They have to be applied about an hour before the procedure to provide relief from pain. That rarely, if ever, happens because the nursery nurses don’t know exactly when pediatricians will make rounds to perform the mutilation. The only pain relief the infant boy usually gets is a pacifier dipped in sugar water. That is the reality of it. I don’t say this to deepen your regret but as more of a fyi because I had no idea until I had to witness a few.
OMFG, that’s horrifying!
Wow!!!
I didn’t suspect I could be any more disgusted or infuriated with these butcher quacks and their stooges!!!
This subject; normalized infant male sexual mutillation, seems to grow more horrifying and sickening, the more that is uncovered about it…
I’m going to go take my blood pressure pills now…
Here in Australia, docking puppy dogs tails has been outright ban, but we still slice off pieces of baby boy dick with impunity, but only at the mothers orders.
Funny how women often refer to men as “dogs”, since it appears that, in Australia at least, we actually rate for less than dogs.
Sadly, this is actually demonstrably true:
http://www.shrink4men.com/2010/12/22/a-domestic-violence-shelter-for-pets-but-none-for-men-and-their-children-safe-beds-for-pets/
Pets have DV shelters; men do not. Unless one has opened since publishing that piece a year ago.
Yeah, I just thought about all those animal shelters out there. Lucky dogs. Get treated better than men do these days.
Hi GWW,
Great article. Very thoughtful material. I admire your writing and the way you express yourself.
You write:
I’ve been called a lot of things since I started writing about men’s issues: sexist, misogynist, hateful, unfeeling, sociopathic, insensitive, uncaring, even inhuman. And the most telling thing is that these accusations are most commonly made when I empathize with men or boys, without empathizing with women and girls more.
With this passage, you very neatly sum up my experiences since I began writing about men’s issues and abuse. In writing about male victimization, have you also found that, inevitably, some woman surfaces to bleat, BUT MY HUSBAND ABUSED ME! MEN DO THIS TO WOMEN, TOO!!!!!!!!”?
There are certain women who fight very hard to protect and maintain their victim status and, who seem to believe, that acknowledging male victimization somehow diminishes their victimization and “specialness.”
Intellectually, I think I understand why they do this. Still, I’ve never been able to really wrap my mind around the way some women (and men) celebrate their victimhood and compete with other self-identified victims as to who has been victimized more.
You also write:
I don’t know how to teach society to feel any empathy for men. I don’t know that it’s a thing that can be taught. I only know that this lack of empathy for men, and society’s pathological outpouring of empathy for women, lies at the very heart of every major men’s rights issue, the wellspring of each injustice I see, and is the foundation of the wall that stands between men and real equality.
I agree with this 100%. Also, what women as a group seem unable/unwilling to realize is that the wholesale lack of empathy for men, their pain, and the injustice they face is corrosive and self-defeating, at least for me.
I’ve noticed that when a woman comes to my website to point out that “women are victims, too!” and she knows this because her ex-husband abused her and that I need to acknowledge that women also suffer from abuse, any empathy I might have for her quickly vanishes.
First, duh. Unless you’re living in a cave without access to television and other media, everyone is aware that some women suffer emotional and physical violence. I don’t need to be reminded, thank you very much. In fact, if you only follow MSM outlets, you probably believe women and girls are the only people who suffer abuse.
Second, when going to the handful of websites that focus on the abuse men suffer in relationships, how clueless, self-obsessed and unempathic do you have to be to demand acknowledgement that women can be abused, too?
Third, I welcome women who have suffered abuse that come to my website for support who also acknowledge the pain and suffering their male counterparts on the site have faced. They empathize because they’ve had similar experiences. The men and women who have suffered abuse actually support one another on my site rather than jockeying for the title of biggest victim or who had it worse.
Fourth, if men and women who have suffered abuse can support and help one another heal, why does the DV industry insist on separate services? Seems to me if men and women who have suffered abuse have access to the same support services, etc., it would help to end the false splitting (men=bad; women=good) and increase empathy, understanding and healing for all.
Sorry, went a little off-topic, GWW, but your article got me to thinking. Again, great piece. I look forward to reading more of your work.
But you can tell this is a sexist oppressive site because most of the guys have really cool avatars and most of the woman have crappy blocky ones.
Hi Stu,
I’ve tried multiple times to personalize my avatar. It won’t work for me
I’m sure it’s a relatively easy process, but damned if I can figure it out.
Haha, me too. I went to gravatar, tried to start an account under Girl Writes What, then got told my username can’t have spaces or caps. I gave up, and will ask my resident engineering physicist to do it for me when he’s up and about.
Good to know it isn’t just me.
Must be a girl thing, lol.
Yes, correct, you are paying the price for your crappy choices LOL
Correct. The gravatar account can’t have spaces. You could create the gravatar account under the username girlwriteswhat, then log in to that account and change the display name to Girl Writes What. That’s also how you add an avatar. Log in to your gravatar account and upload an image. You have to create your gravatar account with the same email address that you used when you created your AVFM account, or else your avatar won’t display here.
Thanks White Cloud! I might even be able to do that all by myself, without breaking the internet.
Edit: Holy crap, I did it. Internet crash predicted in 3…2…
The username you create on gravatar is only your “login name”.
It’s only what you use to login into gravatar.com to manage all your different gravatars. Nobody will actually see your username on websites where you comment.
After you create a gravatar account, you can then login and put in a “display name” – this is the name that actually shows when you comment. The display name can have spaces.
Edit: nevermind, I see whitecloud already answered correctly.
Ha Ha Ha. You’re welcome.
Lmao Stu … “crappy blocky ones” ..
And their asses look fat in those avatars
Assatar.
I like my crappy blocky one.
And it is surely the most crappy of them all lol
Except maybe Hayden’s, his looks like a sumo wrestler taking a crap
I always thought mine looked like Batman with bug mandibles.
Stu, I am deeply hurt, and when I get done wiping the tears from my eyes, I am actually going to look at the damn thing because I have never paid it any attention before. Be forewarned that I will forever keep the damn thing out of spite and because it apparently mirrors the eyesore that I am in real life.
Click to edit…yep, summo wrestler taking a shit. Lol.
Then again, it could be Manblobz giving his nappy a top up.
As an airman, I think a lot about the sacrifice military members make each day, and how we are just numbers in the eyes of those for whom we fight. Stories aren’t often remembered about us, but occasionally, there is one that touches us all in a way that reminds us that we are more than just numbers, more than just tools for safeguarding freedom, meant to fight and die.
I think of the example of Jon Tumilson, the navy seal killed in action along with the rest of his team, who at his funeral, his dog Hawkeye, served as an example to us all of how valuable all life truly is, when he lay unflinching by Jon, his owners coffin.
Of course when talking about the incident, the President speaks of the sacrifices the men and women make, even though only men lost their lives (and a service dog too). Apparently this is to garner sympathy because if it was just men, no one would really care as much.
I’ve never understood the whole “men and women or our Armed Services” crap either, when speaking of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in combat. When the number of woman who risk their lives, and lose them, in the name of protecting others equals that of men, then I’ll be okay with them being recognized. Not a second before.
GWW has more fans than she knows. “Owning Your Shit” for women is a radical concept of personal responsibility and it gets far more attention when it’s from a woman. A woman’s voice has much greater influence in social discourse. GWW has a unique ability to go beyond the basic factual arguments and delve deeply into the emotional subconscious.
Circumcision is more than just tradition, but is rooted in the suppression of male sexuality. An infant’s pain is the first lesson that the penis is bad and deserving of punishment. The removal of nerve endings is a permanent reminder and deterrent to male pleasure. Of course, nobody ever knows the difference, since they are still able to have sex. Some men praise that their spouse’s prefer it. Some women prefer the visual appearance of an unsheathed erect looking penis, even on a baby.
The politics of circumcision are also flipped from other men’s rights issues. It’s conservatives, rather than feminists who support this continued practice. Although it certainly displays the hypocrisy of feminists and equal rights, they neglect circumcision due to popular support and the need to diminish male issues. Everyone has a stake in exploiting male disposability.
More than plussed. You said a lot here, Denis.
Some women prefer the visual appearance of an unsheathed erect looking penis
I’ll never understand why this is allowed to justify genital mutilation. So what if a lot of women like how it looks? Fuck their approval. If we stamp out circumcision, they’ll have no choice in the matter, and they shouldn’t to begin with. Having foreskin isn’t like having tonsils or an appendix. It’s natural, and needed, and doesn’t deserve to be lopped off to satisfy the desires of women.
You know what irks me even more? Is how feminists constantly complain about how male sexuality destroys the self-esteem of women everywhere, and is the number one cause of eating disorders. For every feminist reading this, I have one thing to say: FUCK YOU.
You don’t see anyone getting their infant daughters lasered in the pubic area because so many guys like a clean shaven vagina.
You don’t see anyone giving their infant daughters boobjobs because so many men like larger breasts.
You don’t see anyone doing anything to their infant daughters to alter their appearance or physiology. Why? Because it’s illegal, and no one would want to anyway, because woman aren’t disposable.
So fuck you feminists. Your right to complain is non-existent. And the time where the world indulges you is over.
“And the time where the world indulges you is over.”
I kind of think we have a way to go yet.
I meant that more as a declaration of determined intent than of victory.
I’ve been watching your videos and reading your articles. It’s great to see you on this site. Welcome!
Just when I thought misandry had destroyed female empathy for the pain of boys and men, your powerful article proves me wrong. Welcome to our movement. Thank you.
I’m so glad Girl Writes What is on this website. I’ve been obsessed with her blog recently. I read practically everything on her blog in one sitting just a few days ago.
Hey Girl Writes What,
I haven’t heard back from you so I still wonder what you think of this idea –
Since there are so VERY VERY VERY FEW women in western cultures who will do as you’ve done and publicly empathize with the modern male condition – what events led you to such empathy and how did you overcome cultural messages to do that?
I ask because I think the answers you provide will likely provide some very valuable insight into how female misandry is formed and how other women may move beyond it.
My thanks to all those who explained how to use Gravitar.
Sorry. I started to type up a reply, but then I realized there was no event or series of events that led me to be able to empathize with men and boys. I just always have been able to.
Things like listening to some female customers talking down to their husbands/boyfriends as if they’re talking to an idiot have always bugged me. And I never bought into the whole “It is never okay to hit a girl, but it’s free game for them to hit guys” thing.
I never bought into feminism, either. It always galled me that women could play downtrodden and get extra help, or bailed out of their own shit decisions or bad behavior, as if they’re too weak to do things on their own, or too stupid to know not to mess up their lives.
I’m a marketer’s worst nightmare, too. No one can make me buy a faulty or useless product just by presenting it in the right way. Cultural messages…I understand the effects they have on other people, but I keep my distance from them.
And I’m a fiction writer. That involves a lot of getting inside people’s heads and experiences, and seeing things from perspectives that aren’t your own.
It wasn’t until the last decade or so, though, that I’ve really opened my eyes to just how pervasive cultural, political and legal misandry really is.
I guess I didn’t answer because I don’t know. At least, I don’t know how to apply what is different about me to anyone else.
Thanx for the reply GWW,
You say that in the last decade you’ve opened your eyes to the pervasiveness of misandry – interesting.
you say that you don’t know how to apply what is different about you to other women.
I think just telling your story of how you became increasingly aware is all the applying you need do – it creates a psychological space for other women to move into. Consciousness raising in other words.
It’s been a long road for me going back to the 1980s and a number of major events which brought about a series of tipping points.
Divorce, loss of son to parental alienation, coming accross Warren Farrel’s writings, Burning out as a Social Worker amidst feminist zietgiest, lost years numbing out the pain, gradual re-emergence and now full blown MGTOW and enjoy ghosting – link attached for anyone unfamiliar with the term :
http://theghostnation.com/2009/11/the-ghost-nation-blog/
What about your sons? You didn’t mention that. That’s one thing I remember first thinking about you when I started reading your writing. I too wondered why this woman cares so much about issues facing modern men, then you said that you had three(?) sons, and to me that makes sense. If you care about your sons, you are going to care about the issues that they are going to face as they grow into men in this society.
Did you have only sons?
My sons didn’t make me see it. They didn’t make me understand it. They didn’t lead me to have empathy for men and boys. They didn’t even lead me to argue about this stuff with people (which I’ve always done, because I can’t stand bullshit).
It’s my boys that got me blogging and vlogging and doing something more concrete about it than just bitching to other people in real life.
Edit: I have two sons and a daughter. It’s my job to give them the best possible life.
Based on your response, my conclusion is that two things separate you from those many women who call themselves feminists: Intelligence and a conscience.
As you say, you’ve just “always been able to”. That tells me right there that you have a conscience, because the absence of one is without a doubt the primary enabler of misandry in women. You can’t observe a woman kicking her boyfriend in the head in anger without any type of reaction if you have a conscience. You can’t hear about a man having his genitals mutilated and laugh if you have a conscience. You can’t react nonchalantly to the number of men who have their children torn from them over a lie if you have a conscience.
I’ve spoken to some people (not on here), who believe that some feminists do have a conscience, it’s just that it’s narrowly focused on all the wrong things. But I don’t agree in the least. I believe that the majority of human beings who have consciences agree that killing, stealing, and raping no matter who is doing it is wrong because that’s precisely what a conscience is geared towards. I don’t think it can be corrupted, and I don’t think it can truly be lost or gained/regained. I think it either exists or it doesn’t.
Obviously you are intelligent enough to see through the lies, to see reality for exactly what it is. Having a conscience may assist in that, but I do believe that ultimately it is the power of one’s mind that determines their ability to comprehend such concepts as the oppression of black women in this country, as opposed to the so-called oppression of white women touted by feminism.
By the way, ever notice how a majority of the most vocal and well-known feminists throughout history have been white? I don’t think that’s a coincidence or an accident in the least, and I think it’s something black women especially should be taking notice of, as it was people of their skin color that weren’t considered fully human when the U.S. was founded, and forty years after feminists succeeded in getting women the right to vote, black people were living through the segregation days, drinking from separate water fountains and having to sit at the back of the bus while white women enjoyed the front.
Most of all the feminists throughout history have been privileged women with time to write or protest or organize. Most women didn’t have that time, and most women 200 years ago would have been unbelievably harmed had the economic changes brought about by modern feminism occurred then.
Those privileged wealthy women might have been able to be lawyers or doctors. But women were not kept out of “marrying wage” jobs to protect men–they were kept out to protect men’s ability to support women. Men had an obligation to support their families, because most women–back then, before the pill, baby formula and easy, indoor jobs–would NEVER have been able to do that. Privileged women were whining about the “right” to be doctors, without even realizing that competing with men for jobs would undermine society’s ability to hold men to an obligation to support all those millions of women who wouldn’t have been doctors, but would have been working in a brickyard with babies strapped to their breasts, and not even earn a “marrying wage” doing it because competition for jobs would drive everyone’s wages down.
Every feminist I’ve ever met has never had to do a day of back-breaking physical labor even remotely equivalent to what my grandmother had to do *to keep a house* in 1920. And it’s identical to the lack of thought or care even those early feminists gave other women who were not rich and didn’t have time to do anything other than get by.
Another gem of a comment here from GWW.
Only need a few million other women who think this way and life will be much improved – sigh.
I’ve recently taken to likening the dynamics between men and women to that of the Elois and the Morlocks from H.G. Wells’ The Time Machine. In fact, I think he just may have been trying to warn us about feminism before it even really existed. Maybe he WAS a time traveler?
Anyways, in case I need to refresh your memory, the Time Traveler journeyed to over 800,000 years in the future, a time where human beings had split into two different species: the Elois, who were dainty, cute, and generally quite lazy and care-free, and the Morlocks, who were ugly, scary-looking, and driven by a strong work ethic.
On the surface, the relationship between those two seems rather unsavory, since the Morlocks work to keep the Elois alive only because the Morlocks feed upon them, but really, it’s pretty symbiotic. The Elois get to be lazy, and the Morlocks get to eat the best kind of meal on the planet. I mean, why else would the Morlocks eat Elois in the first place? Seems pretty obvious to me that it’s because they’re far more nutritional than anything else Earth has to offer for Morlocks.
In our world, women have basically played out the role of the Elois, and men are still generally the Morlocks. Men work their asses off to protect and provide for women, and in exchange, get enjoy having a loving and appreciative family. In the world of the Elois and the Morlocks, their version of feminism would come in the form of some especially lazy Eloi who witnessed too many of their comrades getting fed upon by Morlocks, and decided to incite rebellion. The Elois would demand that the Morlocks stop eating them, and allow them to do some of the work.
Let’s say that the Morlocks acquiesce to this demand. Many of the Elois go underground, learn how to work the machines, and generally struggle to keep up with the Morlocks, as they’re simply not built for that kind of activity. The Morlocks start to ask themselves why they’re letting the Elois intrude, when they could just agree to not eat the Elois, and leave it at that. Eventually, the Morlocks tell the Elois to piss off and go form their own community and build their own machines to attend to their own needs, while the Morlocks tend to theirs.
The Elois attempt this, but ultimately fail, as, again, they simply aren’t capable. They’ve been allowed to be lazy for too long, and just don’t have what it takes. So they approach the Morlocks and ask them to basically go back to tending to their needs, while also adhering to their vow not to eat the Elois.
The Morlocks find this to be a shitty proposition, as they now sorely miss having the best nutritional food source on the planet available to them, and have no other reason to work for a bunch of layabouts who can’t take care of themselves. So the Morlocks go back to tending to and eating the Elois.
Now obviously, women in our world aren’t quite as incompetent as I described the Elois to be, but they are intruding upon the work of men while still demanding that men continue to protect and provide for them, and while also demanding that the benefits of doing so be stripped from men (meaning, men are no longer to be nearly as appreciated and loved for their hard work, it’s just expected of them).
This of course wouldn’t be a problem if the Elois/women actually were able to truly do what Morlocks/men do, and the two were able to form a more equal partnership. Thanks to feminism, we have some work to do before that can happen.
I don’t know Sceptic,when you say it like that….a few million it sounds impossible, but it’s not. I’ve heard a lot of guys on MRM sites basically say there is no place for women in the MRM……and I get what they mean because they are thinking of the average women…….or worse. I would say, that they are right in that regard…….however……there is plenty of room for exceptional women in the MRM…..and by exceptional, I don’t mean highly educated, massively talented, blah blah blah……but exceptional in their honesty, empathy for men and boys…..their ability to use logic and reason….and temper their emotions…….unfortunately these qualities have become exceptional in women.
Women like Izzey, GWW, Typhonblue, Dr.T,, my own good wife Kazzy, and a bunch of others…..sorry for not putting all your names down, but the list is getting rather long….and that is good.
Having women like this in the MRM makes us more powerful. Our girls share something in common with the feminists, they too can play the pussy pass card, we can’t. They can get away with more than we can. Like it or not, I can say “feminists suck” and men are great as many times and as loud as I like…..women won’t hear me….manginas won’t hear me…..only a woman’s voice carries any weight with them. That is not as it should be, and it’s a crappy situation……but it exists…and it’s a very real barrier to our progress.
Just as millions of women and manginas followed feminist women into misandry, millions can follow female MRA’s out. Being a female MRA is as sexy as hell, it’s empowering,,,,,,any women who think not…..who do you think is more empowered……women like the MRAs we have here……or whinging, whining, weak ass pathetic, self-proclaimed victims of every little thing, constantly making mountains out of mole hills, which has become the hallmark of feminism.
I dread the arrival of the fakers, the pretenders, that will surely try to climb onto the band wagon, but I look forward to more women like the ones we seem to be collecting so far.
@Stu, in reply
Wouldn’t it be beneficial to convert the average woman, as many women as possible, in fact? Very few people, man or women are exceptional. The main success of the Feminist movement, the Civil Rights movement was convincing nearly everyone that they were right! It can be done. Though, you guys have to be a little less hard on the girls…
@red
You just don’t give up, do you?
@Stu:
*Standing ovations!!!*
@tr9red
Well, you have to remember that we are fighting misandry, all the feminist double standards, their lies, their bullshit statistics, their denial of all areas where men have, and always have had it far worse than women………so……it does no good to allow any and all women to join our movement. There has to be a requirement that they have abandoned the ideas of feminism……feminism is the enemy after all. Of course there are degrees.
Take the Russian troll that was hanging here. A total lost cause…..brainwashed, unwilling to change….a total waste of time talking to her, the site is better off just booting her arse straight out as soon as she shows her colors, except maybe to allow her to show her colors enough as an advertisement and example of……”this is what a feminist looks like”
Some women are brainwashed, but not beyond reaching.
Have you seen the movie the matrix? There is one scene where someone is explaining that the people in the pods, in the matrix, are totally unaware that they are in a matrix. These people will behave as their enemies until they are freed from the matrix, and they are their enemies…they don’t know any better. But as a requirement to be considered for unplugging from the matrix, they must demonstrate potential.
The red pill is pretty hard to swallow even for a man. For a women it must be much more bitter,
We want a lot of things, to many to list, but all very reasonable, and fair, if you base fair on what is actually fair, not the feminist version.
Example. I live under a law that says, if my wife and I argue, and I raise my voice…..I’m a violent criminal…..if I withdraw and remain silent….that is also domestic violence……if I refuse to give her money she requests….that is domestic violence also…….but if I demand she gives me some of her money…..that is domestic violence by me also. If she says she feels afraid of me…..police have to take me away…..she doesn’t need a valid reason to be afraid of me….just say she feels it. But if she hits me…..throws things at me…..kicks, bites and punches me……thats fine…..and I am guilty of domestic violence if I push past her to get out the door.
This is just one very small slice of a giant shit sandwich that includes nearly every facet of mens lives now.
This is the world I live in……women are the slave owners…….and men are slaves. And all we hear everyday, on every form of media is more bullshit from feminists…crying about what a horrible world they live in….and how great men have it…and what pigs we are.
If you have an open mind…..read widely on this site…and The False Rape Society…..and Angry Harry…..yes, we are hard hitting….but we were soft hitting for years…..and our rights just got eroded more and more……so sorry…but it’s no more Mr Nice Guy for the MRM.
@Stu, in reply
Understood
Also, in any movement there are various different factions. Some of which are more or less radical than others. They may not actually work together. But, together they can reach a broader audience that is as “in your face” or “not in your face” as is comfortable for everyone. One of the less “in your face” sites, Fathers and Families (Glenn Sacks). Initially, I didn’t like him. But after reading all the articles on the website I don’t see how any women or man would not support addressing the issues discussed on the site.
@DruidV, in reply
I have a “thick” head, an opinion on just about everything, and it nearly makes me h*orny when someone can convince me to think about something in away I never considered.
Furthermore, no one ever calls me bad names. . . If I went away, I would miss being berated by some of you. ;D
Great article. Love your video’s as well. When my baby boy was born, I had to express in no uncertain terms that there would be serious and continuous concequences and repercussions if the idea was not dropped immediately and permanently. You know I think at the end of the day it was dropped only because it just seemed like ‘too much drama’ and no other reason. It would have been too! Taking to my boy with a scalpel would not have ended well.
Hey Stu,
I never said the task was impossible, just huge – as a few million women who think like GWW and life would be much improved that’s all.
Wouldn’t it be beneficial to convert the average woman, as many women as possible, in fact?
Most women alive today are a lost cause. They’ve grown up too dependent upon the system working in their favor, and they will not let go. It’s the future generations of women (and men) that we have hope in.
Very few people, man or women are exceptional.
Irrelevant. You don’t have to be exceptional to not have your head up your ass.
Though, you guys have to be a little less hard on the girls…
As in the girls who’ve yet to pull their head out of their ass? Or never had it up there to begin with? No. They do not deserve special treatment. We will be just as harsh with them as we are with blue pill men and white knights. The second we ease up, they gain ground, and that is unacceptable.
No more coddling women. Women want to be an exception to all the rules that apply to men, then they can get back in the kitchen and earn it. Since none of them want to do that, their privileges are hereby revoked. THAT is equality.
It’s just my opinion, but I am convinced that–no matter how many men comprise the MRM–it is doomed to failure unless at least a third of its population is female.
We need women, lots of them, if we are to disconnect the heads of feminists (male and female) from their assholes. If only men argue for men’s rights, the feminist men will call us all woosies and the fembots will call us misogynist. Because that will be the appearance.
A sizable and well-versed female population brings with it profound validation and a presence of fairness.
you wont find much sympathy in this point of view we fight with facts and logic we will win on that not on how many women approve of our message and join us….
I absolutely agree with the need for more women in the MRM to bring about success. However, I disagree with the number/population required (e.g. one-third). I, for one, believe that a smaller critical mass of women with exceptional voices (i.e. give me quality over quantity) will ultimately allow us to influence both women and men to consider our message and change. Its already happening with the women we see her (i.e. Izzey, Dr. T.,Typhoon Blue and Girl Writes What, etc.) and I am hopeful it will continue as our Voice becomes stronger, louder and more articulate and persuasive.
I believe that population of converted women should be quite small, because quite frankly, I don’t view the majority of feminists to be capable of conversion because I believe very strongly that a lack of a conscience is the primary factor in them being feminists in the first place.
With future generations of women, however, if a majority of them are born with consciences, we don’t even really need to reach out to them or try to keep the number small, since having a conscience severely inhibits ones ability to embrace feminism. And if you’re not a feminist, I don’t see how you couldn’t be an MRA practically by default. If you’re not a feminist, most likely, you’re going to the misandry around you at some point.
Granted, we should continue to distribute red pills wherever and whenever possible. That is essential. But men (young and old) are the ones that most need to be woken up. After all, it was men who fell asleep at the wheel that allowed feminism to take hold in the first place. Men had the power to stop it dead in its tracks long ago, they just fumbled.
A sizable and well-versed female population brings with it profound validation and a presence of fairness.
The pervasive attitude that the thoughts and perspectives of any number of men being susceptible to dismissal without the “validation” of women who share those thoughts and perspectives, is a prime symptom of feminism, and when feminism dies, so shall it. It is precisely the attitude that absolutely MUST GO.
Although I do recognize that our voices being bolstered by those of women who do not have their head up their ass is necessary to an extent, the fact of the matter is, the majority of feminists today are not going to be joining hands with us as we walk into a brighter future. They’re going to be left behind as the awakened men and women absent of hate from birth share that great journey.
Embrace not those who just got done clubbing you over the head and are now apologizing. Instead, welcome the ones who defended you in the name of justice.
Exactly, but we can’t turn into a group that allows any women in regardless of their beliefs and attitudes. They have to be held to exactly the same standards as the men that want to be here. They have to be here to fight for men’s rights, not to provide a balanced argument, or include feminist views in our argument. It’s society that needs to become balanced, and since everything in society is weighted towards women’s rights, we need to be a counter weight.
We don’t accept men coming here and joining our movement and calling themselves MRAs while constantly bringing up women’s wants and needs and saying “yeah but………” to every MRA counter argument to feminist views……..so we should not accept women doing either. We can’t allow our movement to be co-opted by women…….if that happens…….we become the Good Mangina Project.
The fact is that even if we allow masses of what would you call them……average women……you know…….I’m not a feminist….but…….that type……if we let them in……pretty soon we’ll have to water down our rhetoric…..men will be getting booted out for swearing……upsetting women’s feelings will become a crime here…..as it is everywhere else…..and the feminazis will have an open door…….and before you know it we’ll all be wearing pink ribbons and raising money for breast cancer research.
So the standard had to be…….for men, and women, you are an MRA, fighting for the rights of men, or you don’t matter to us.
They have to be here to fight for men’s rights, not to provide a balanced argument, or include feminist views in our argument.
Exactly. Acknowledgement that it’s men’s suffering that gets ignored is essential. We don’t need reminding that women get raped and shit, we’ve had that hammered into our heads since they day we were born. And we especially don’t need to constantly be hearing about the very few times that women lose their kids in a divorce, or get screwed in divorce court, or lose their jobs to a sexual harassment complaint, or any of the number of negative things that happen to men far more often. Not our fault or our problem. We’re the only ones concerned with men’s rights, everyone else focuses on women’s. Leave that shit at the fucking door.
Zorro!! You are are astutely sagacious!!! Unless we guys enlist our women in this, the feminists will win. And when I say “our women” I am not using the possessive. I mean the gals who are, or will be, our helpmates…the ones who will run along-side us for a lifetime. I sense there’s a whole sea-full of them and that GirlWritesWhat isn’t just an anomaly. Christ, I hope so…if not, our future is dim…but then, so is theirs.
@GWW
On the Lighter Side …
I understand that the article’s title and content suggest and ultimately lead the reader to compare and contrast the abuse of baby boys (via circumcision / genital mutilation) with the torture/killing of turtles while they are still alive.
In my opinion both of these practices need to end.
However, were you also thinking (either consciously or unconsciously) of the physical similarities between a turtle’s head/neck and a male’s uncircumcised penis?
They do kinda look and operate the same eh?
Note: To any/all who might take offense, please re-read my first line.
I wasn’t thinking of that, no. But now I keep thinking of that episode of Seinfeld, after George gets out of the pool.
Elaine: It shrinks???
Jerry: Like a frightened turtle!
Elaine: Why does it shrink?
George: It just does.
Elaine: I don’t know how you guys walk around with those things…
Tim, REAL MEN HAVE FORESKINS. It seems only ignorant women and apellous males make these penile denigrating remarks.
You can fix the traditional.
Yes, yes you can. And we should.
It just means men and women need to actually understand each other.
Well it isn’t just limited to that, but understanding one another is a part of it.
Bear in mind that when I think of men and women coming to an understanding, I envision men and women who are not feminists, as feminists are not reasonable, and are not willing to budge on certain things. They lack the capacity to understand men because they also lack the desire to. That’s why they are to be left behind as we make progress.
Real women on the other hand, are reasonable enough. They understand and acknowledge that we have to work together, and that our differences/strengths can help one another, not just ourselves, and that our partnership is not one of domination by either gender.
I’d like to see hypergamy go, but I honestly don’t think it will. Looking at it from the outside of it (I’m not acquisitive or status-oriented or any of that), it seems to be an instinctive behavioral trait on the part of women that would have been so successful it must be extremely pervasive.
And women’s sexual freedom (as much as I love my sexual freedom) is counterproductive when it comes to “evolving out” both hypergamy and the male traits feminists have deemed “bad”. Women have more choice than ever as to whose DNA goes into their kids. For the most part, they’ll keep making hypergamous choices, and those traits will continue to be passed on.
The ironic thing is that if monogamous, lifelong marriage had remained enforced legally and socially, that, combined with DNA testing and fair divorce laws (you cheat or cuckold a guy, you get nothing), might have pressured women to make different choices with respect to sexual partners (think harder about who they have kids with), and select OUT the dark triad alph-hole traits over several generations.
This is where I think the non hormonal male birth control pill
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7857262/Scientists-invent-first-male-contraceptive-pill.html
will make a difference and one of the reasons I’d like to see much more MRA discussion about it.
At the moment women hold all the reproductive ace cards, but the NHMBCP will change that.
It will tip the mate selection process on it’s head.
One small pill = 1 – 3 months protection from creating a pregnancy and any possibility of paternity fraud (being cuckolded).
That’s a thing of immense beauty and power right there.
It terrifies feminists so much they have since it’s report in news been HUGELY silent about it.
That tells me a great deal.
I think the development of a male birth control pill would be fabulous and just as beneficial to women as men. I don’t understand why Feminist groups would be against a male birth control pill. I haven’t actually read about any opposition to a male birth control pill from any Feminist groups.
With a male birth control pill men would have reproductive control they have never had before. For women who would be uncomfortable trusting their mate to remember to take the pill, I have not read any articles about this pill or the other male birth control option in the works that would prevent a women from also taking her own birth control pill. In this way the effectiveness of the contraceptive would be increased as if her pill were to fail, hopefully his would be effective at preventing a pregnancy and vis-versa.
It wouldn’t be beneficial to women because as it is, women have total control…..not just of not becoming pregnant if they don’t want to……but of becoming pregnant if they want to. If men had a reliable pill, free from side affects….then women would have to ask and obtain a man’s permission to have his child. Feminists see that as taking away the right of a woman to choose…..for her and the man.
I think a very big part of what today’s women see as beneficial traits in men is very sexist, and not at all based on a fair measure of men in general.
For example, men don’t really choose the potential mothers of their children based on the old ideas of what a good mother would be anymore, mainly because those traits don’t exist in women in general these days. A long time ago, a woman was a potentially good mother if she was a good cook, knew how to clean, was compassionate, patient, and dedicated to their partner. Today’s women don’t cook, clean, show any compassion towards men, or any patience, or dedication.
And yet, they’re still free to demand all the same things from men that they always have (mainly money). This is, of course, hardly an actual side effect of women’s liberation. No, it’s a symptom of feminism’s toxicity.
Let’s say men and women alike are fully liberated one day. To me, that means men aren’t frowned upon for wanting to stay home with the kids, and women do not frown upon fully inheriting what was once a man’s job. This of course requires that the majority of women seek an entirely different set of traits in men, as well as exhibit a very different set of traits than most of them do now.
Essentially, when it comes to our aspects, men and women are to swap (the majority of them anyway). If this is truly impossible, if that really cannot be done, then it’s only fair that men in general return to demanding the kinds of traits in women that we’re traditionally supposed to be looking for, and hold women to it like we used to.
I don’t think it’s impossible though, and I especially feel that the wall in our way of achieving a sense of fair play is feminism. It is that ideology that holds men to their traditional expectations while freeing women from theirs, and once that ideology has crumbled, we can begin the process of freeing men just as we freed women.
Or, it’ll be at that point that women in general go back to the kitchen, and men continue to be looked at for their resources for good reason, and once again have good reason to seek partnerships with women.
I laugh at these people who insist that women are naturally monogamous. Yeah right, they don’t get out much, but apart from that, if they were naturally monogamous, why did they have to have all these laws regarding infidelity in the past.
It’s pretty obvious that social shaming, chastity belts, stoning to death for adultery, all sorts of other legal and social sanctions were all invented because women were naturally monogamous. Something tells me that left to their own desires….they were running around banging whoever took their fancy. Why did they need all these measures to induce monogamy in a naturally monogamous creature LOL
I look at the rules of the past as being appropriate and required at the time. Civilisation was built because of the formation of families and the harnessing of male utility. The trade off for men being protectors and providers for women and children……was that those children were theirs…..and the only way he can know that in a time where contraception was non-existent, is if the woman is not fucking anybody else.
Regardless of who the father of a child may be, a woman always knows the child is hers……and the man doesn’t, unless the possibility of another man being the father is removed. Also, in small villages, townships, tribes, if everyone was bonking who they liked, the chances of you knocking your sister up would be great. In fact, nobody would know who their father was….their brother…..their sister…..cousins…nothing….only the mother.
So the sexual nature of both women and men had to be curbed for the building blocks of civilisation to be sound, and to give men a reason to play ball in the first place.
“With a male birth control pill men would have reproductive control they have never had before”.
That’s why there’s wall to wall silence from feminists about it’s arrival. It will undermine pussy power hugely.
I don’t think it will undermine pussy power, but it will undermine pregy power.
A male birth control pill should be viewed as a great relief to women. At this point women are solely responsible for avoiding pregnancy and women generally shoulder all the blame. All of the contraceptives available to women today have numerous side effects. A male pill would place men on even keel with women as to the responsibility for avoiding unwanted pregnancies. It may even alleviate the need for the so called, “male abortion.” I don’t see how a guy could claim he was dupped into fatherhood if a male pill were available. A male pill is probably as close to reproductive equality as we could hope to get.
Too bad it comes from Israel, since that means for us Americans that it’ll be six years at the least before we start getting it here.
Whenever I peruse the web fro information on a male birth control pill, I keep running into the same issue: lack of appropriate funding.
Gee, I wonder why that is?
Hey, I just translated this article into Romanian. Can be found here http://vilo13.blogspot.com/2011/12/baietei-si-broaste-testoase.html# and it mentions the source.
I hope there is no problem with this.
Regards.
P.S.: I am also involved in a hard work program to subtitle most of manwomanmyth’s videos.
Love your blog and posts. I am a MRM supporter. However, I must disagree with your viewpoint on circumcision. While you look at it as a trauma to boys and how horrible it is to them, I look at it in a totally different light.
If you are Jewish, it is a right of passage. While many people say it has to do with cleanliness and that is understandible as kosher laws are based on cleanliness. Thousands of years ago, one did not have refrigeration, irradiation or pasteurization. So, mixing milk and meat caused disease. Eating animals that fed of the waste of other animals was also considered bad. So, kosher laws addressed those issues.
Nowadays, it is more about religious tradition and less about cleanliness. The same goes with circumcision. Its roots have very little to do with cleanliness and everything to do with ones’ committment to god. Being circumcised as a jewish male is to have a covenant with god.
It is a reminder one’s devotion and life to one god – yahweh. Nowadays, people discuss it as a cleanliness thing and people talk about how they have been violated. As a jew, I look at it as a minor sacrifice and devotionto god and being the best person I can be.
Modern day society has adopted it and many people, like yourself do not like it. So, do not have your kids “cut.” For most jews, it is a non-issue and a non-negotiable act.
Yeah, I know of a lot of other signs of devotion to God, many of them resulting in dead people. If men want to self mutilate their supposedly God given bodies in order to prove their faith, I many think it is crazy and senseless, but I don’t argue against their right to do so. Doing that to children, infants who cannot choose, takes religious dogma to a sick and sadistic low.
Ignoring the secular reasons against circumcision, I have only to say that not everybody is Jewish – most of America is some denomination of protestant christian, and they still circumcise their children.
If your reason for doing this is religious I don’t really have a problem and won’t stop you. My reasons are mostly related to personal issues and trying to understand how a religious practice can be pushed in a way that seems to be an objective standard.
(all penes should be cut. uncut penes are ew)
I didn’t even realize it was GWW until after I read the first comment. I think that’s a good thing (I don’t have any bias when it comes to authors).
I think these articles are very helpful. It used to be a trigger (i know this site seems to jest about the term ‘trigger’ but it does exist) topic for me because I couldn’t understand how women could be so callous about it. Or to state with a straight face that men ‘have to’ be cut, lest they lose mating opportunity with her (who cares?), appear disgusting (a ridiculous and subjective claim lauded as objective truth), or some other nonsense like the ones related to STDs (WEAR A CONDOM). But mostly because I’ve argued for days about it before.
Finally I calmed down and realized my experiences in life with my partners do not conform to this bigotry – and I was able to talk to intelligent women who not only don’t mind an unmutilated penis but agree and soothe my anger when I rage about this topic.
The other day I read a Dan Savage (Savage Love) letter where a man recounted a story. You might like it – sadly I didn’t finish reading the letter to see the response:
I once dated a woman who asked me to have a circumcision for her. I replied that I would gladly have a circumcision as long as she had one with me. She flipped out and yelled at me, calling me sexist.
Normally this story would piss me off. Instead I was able to laugh it off and called the woman an idiot. I’m not cured per se, but it’s happening.
Just vomiting my thoughts on this topic.
“How can we expect him–command him–to suffer for the benefit of women and society if we care about sparing him pain? If we could climb into his skin and imagine ourselves there, experience the full spectrum of the fear he hides, the pain he conquers, the anguish he suppresses, the loneliness he buries, the helplessness he denies?”
That tugged a string. as an emotionally-retarded cold-hearted piece of furniture.