Pain

Baby boys and turtles

I finally broke down about a month ago and watched my very first video of an infant circumcision. It was an instructional video, the picture grainy and the color off, so I couldn’t quite see in sparkling clarity what exactly was being done (for which I’m grateful). I watched it on mute at first, too. When I finally had the guts to turn the sound back on, the only thing more appalling to me than the screams of the baby was the cold, detached, clinical description of the procedure recited by the doctor performing it.

I’m not a squeamish person. Back in the day, when I was a professional cook at a high end hotel, I was the go-to girl whenever someone accidentally stuck his hand in the deep fryer or cut the tip of her finger off, to assess the injury, determine if it required serious attention and, if necessary, locate the missing part, at the very least to make sure it never found its way into anyone’s dinner. I’ve held my three year-old’s head still while a doctor stitched it up, and have been through the pain of natural childbirth three times. I was even seriously considering a career as a medical examiner at one time.

But watching that video left me shaking, my throat clogged with tears, and my chest tight and hot with this kind of simmering anger that such things are still done to other human beings–and such helpless ones–in this so-called progressive age.

And no, this is not an article about infant circumcision, per se. It’s an article about what the cultural and legal acceptance of infant circumcision, even in cultures where it’s not the norm, tells us about society, and about men’s place in it.

I also remember the media shit-storm that occurred a decade or so ago in Vancouver’s Chinatown when vendors were reported to the SPCA (by horrified schoolchildren on a field trip, no less) for chopping up and selling meat off live turtles, stripping off the shell and carving up the turtle piece by piece while it still lived. The vendors themselves didn’t see what the problem was. Keeping it alive as long as possible kept each slice of meat fresh. What could be simpler or easier? Besides, it was just a turtle. Why should anyone care?

Animal rights advocates were outraged by the practice (as were the majority of Average Joes I spoke to about it), but the SPCA considered it a “cultural norm”, and since there was no specific law against it, there was “not a whole lot we can do”.

Which seems bizarre, when a person running a puppy mill, or beating their cat with a hose, or allowing a dog to starve in their care, can earn themselves a fine and even jail time, or be banned from owning animals.

Denis Leary did a “funny because it’s true” bit in his Special “No Cure for Cancer”, where he aptly observed, “We only wanna save the cute animals, don’t we?” But I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s not just an animal’s (or human’s) cuteness factor that impacts how much we empathize or don’t with them. It’s a whole host of perceptions we have regarding their functions, roles, inner workings (if any), contributions, harmfulness, strengths and weaknesses, that combine to formulate our ability to value them as beings in their own right, rather than translating their existence solely into a function of their usefulness or harm to us.

The turtle may be cute, but it’s also food. Its role and function in relation to us is to be used and consumed by us. It’s cold-blooded, with the soulless personality of any reptile, and not even smart enough to be litter trained. It is perceived to be emotionally dead, therefore its pain is presumed to be non-existent, and its entire being alien to our own experience. And while us westerners have long had the luxury of caring about the survival and wellbeing of species other than our own, I’m not sure there’s even an agency equivalent to the SPCA in China. Their culture is still largely one of seeing animals primarily for their utility, as we used to. There’s probably not a lot of lambs or calves with names there, because when you name your food, it’s a lot harder to butcher it. You’ve turned it into a “who” rather than a “what”.

When it comes to cruelty to pets, well, things look very different to us. Our pets’ roles and functions feed our humanity–love, affection, companionship. We don’t keep them around for their utility, but for the joy they give us. We admire their attributes, and relate to their rich, emotional lives. And oddly, because we don’t “need” them, because they serve no practical purpose, perform no necessary labor, and are even burdens on us…we seem to value them all the more. We often respect their feelings and desires too much, and allow them to get fat, or become the “boss of the house”.

I used to be confused by the tendency of society–both the male and female halves of it–to over-empathize with women and not empathize at all with men, but the more I think about the turtles in the Chinese market, and the baby boy strapped screaming to a board, the more clear my thoughts become, and at the same time, the more complex.

What is “male”? What attributes do our biology and our culture assign to maleness, and why?

Strength. Independence. Self-determination. Toughness. Courage. Threat. Ruthlessness. Danger. Competence. Ambition. Predation. Reticence. Stoicism. Anger. Aggression. Violence. Perseverance. Invulnerability. Utility. Protection. Self-sacrifice. All of this is “male”.

Can such a being even feel pain? And if he does, why should we care? More importantly, can we, and have we ever been able to, afford to care?

A huge part of the role men played for ages of our evolution involved them not just being agents acting upon the outside world, but also absorbing violence, risk, pain and damage, from nature, other humans, or their own labors, so that women wouldn’t have to.

DeathHow could society’s expectation of a man to willingly, bravely, uncomplainingly stand in front of a woman and act as her shield, face the elements and possible death on a game trail to act as her spear, work his hands bloody to act as her scythe, bend his back to act as her ox, sit hungry and cold and scared in a trench to act as her curtain wall…how could this expectation exist and be enforced, if we felt real empathy for that man, if we saw him as a being in his own right, worthy of humanity just because he was human, if we valued him as much as we did the uses he could be put to, or if his suffering truly mattered to us?

How can we expect him–command him–to suffer for the benefit of women and society if we care about sparing him pain? If we could climb into his skin and imagine ourselves there, experience the full spectrum of the fear he hides, the pain he conquers, the anguish he suppresses, the loneliness he buries, the helplessness he denies?

In Africa, there is a growing movement on the part of aid agencies and federal bodies to put an end to the barbaric practice of female genital mutilation. At the exact same time, there is a program supported by the World Health Organization to implement widespread infant circumcision (the mutilation that isn’t), for the benefit of African society.

I think of that male baby, strapped to a board while his male part is cut from him, his screams as ineffectual as the squirming of a turtle with its shell stripped off, the voice of the doctor, no different in cadence or tone from the voice of the market vendor saying, “but it’s only a turtle.”

And the only way it makes any sense at all to me is to conclude that the maleness of that cut somehow transforms his suffering from that of a baby, which we might care about, into that of a male. It’s beneficial, not just to him, but to society. Even if it isn’t. Because a little male suffering never hurt anyone, right?

And I imagine the mother of that baby holding him afterward, consoling him even as she praises, “that’s my good, brave boy, my tough little guy…” and admonishing him not to cry.

I’ve been called a lot of things since I started writing about men’s issues: sexist, misogynist, hateful, unfeeling, sociopathic, insensitive, uncaring, even inhuman. And the most telling thing is that these accusations are most commonly made when I empathize with men or boys, without empathizing with women and girls more.

I don’t know how to teach society to feel any empathy for men. I don’t know that it’s a thing that can be taught. I only know that this lack of empathy for men, and society’s pathological outpouring of empathy for women, lies at the very heart of every major men’s rights issue, the wellspring of each injustice I see, and is the foundation of the wall that stands between men and real equality.

About Karen Straughan (aka GirlWritesWhat)

AVfM Contributing Editor Karen Straughan "Girl Writes What" is a 42 year old, divorced mother of three who enjoys talking about herself in the third person. As "Girl Writes What" Karen is co-host and star of AVfM Radio, and possibly the most popular and visible MHRA in North America. Her writing and videography on gender issues features in classrooms in high schools and universities on three continents. But she still has time for the little people, like Paul, and those other guys.

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  • StarsDie

    I’m so glad Girl Writes What is on this website. I’ve been obsessed with her blog recently. I read practically everything on her blog in one sitting just a few days ago.

  • Skeptic

    Hey Girl Writes What,
    I haven’t heard back from you so I still wonder what you think of this idea –

    Since there are so VERY VERY VERY FEW women in western cultures who will do as you’ve done and publicly empathize with the modern male condition – what events led you to such empathy and how did you overcome cultural messages to do that?
    I ask because I think the answers you provide will likely provide some very valuable insight into how female misandry is formed and how other women may move beyond it.

    My thanks to all those who explained how to use Gravitar.

    • http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/ Girl Writes What

      Sorry. I started to type up a reply, but then I realized there was no event or series of events that led me to be able to empathize with men and boys. I just always have been able to.

      Things like listening to some female customers talking down to their husbands/boyfriends as if they’re talking to an idiot have always bugged me. And I never bought into the whole “It is never okay to hit a girl, but it’s free game for them to hit guys” thing.

      I never bought into feminism, either. It always galled me that women could play downtrodden and get extra help, or bailed out of their own shit decisions or bad behavior, as if they’re too weak to do things on their own, or too stupid to know not to mess up their lives.

      I’m a marketer’s worst nightmare, too. No one can make me buy a faulty or useless product just by presenting it in the right way. Cultural messages…I understand the effects they have on other people, but I keep my distance from them.

      And I’m a fiction writer. That involves a lot of getting inside people’s heads and experiences, and seeing things from perspectives that aren’t your own.

      It wasn’t until the last decade or so, though, that I’ve really opened my eyes to just how pervasive cultural, political and legal misandry really is.

      I guess I didn’t answer because I don’t know. At least, I don’t know how to apply what is different about me to anyone else.

      • Skeptic

        Thanx for the reply GWW,
        You say that in the last decade you’ve opened your eyes to the pervasiveness of misandry – interesting.
        you say that you don’t know how to apply what is different about you to other women.
        I think just telling your story of how you became increasingly aware is all the applying you need do – it creates a psychological space for other women to move into. Consciousness raising in other words.

        It’s been a long road for me going back to the 1980s and a number of major events which brought about a series of tipping points.
        Divorce, loss of son to parental alienation, coming accross Warren Farrel’s writings, Burning out as a Social Worker amidst feminist zietgiest, lost years numbing out the pain, gradual re-emergence and now full blown MGTOW and enjoy ghosting – link attached for anyone unfamiliar with the term :

        http://theghostnation.com/2009/11/the-ghost-nation-blog/

      • White Cloud

        What about your sons? You didn’t mention that. That’s one thing I remember first thinking about you when I started reading your writing. I too wondered why this woman cares so much about issues facing modern men, then you said that you had three(?) sons, and to me that makes sense. If you care about your sons, you are going to care about the issues that they are going to face as they grow into men in this society.

        Did you have only sons?

        • http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/ Girl Writes What

          My sons didn’t make me see it. They didn’t make me understand it. They didn’t lead me to have empathy for men and boys. They didn’t even lead me to argue about this stuff with people (which I’ve always done, because I can’t stand bullshit).

          It’s my boys that got me blogging and vlogging and doing something more concrete about it than just bitching to other people in real life.

          Edit: I have two sons and a daughter. It’s my job to give them the best possible life.

      • MrStodern

        Based on your response, my conclusion is that two things separate you from those many women who call themselves feminists: Intelligence and a conscience.

        As you say, you’ve just “always been able to”. That tells me right there that you have a conscience, because the absence of one is without a doubt the primary enabler of misandry in women. You can’t observe a woman kicking her boyfriend in the head in anger without any type of reaction if you have a conscience. You can’t hear about a man having his genitals mutilated and laugh if you have a conscience. You can’t react nonchalantly to the number of men who have their children torn from them over a lie if you have a conscience.

        I’ve spoken to some people (not on here), who believe that some feminists do have a conscience, it’s just that it’s narrowly focused on all the wrong things. But I don’t agree in the least. I believe that the majority of human beings who have consciences agree that killing, stealing, and raping no matter who is doing it is wrong because that’s precisely what a conscience is geared towards. I don’t think it can be corrupted, and I don’t think it can truly be lost or gained/regained. I think it either exists or it doesn’t.

        Obviously you are intelligent enough to see through the lies, to see reality for exactly what it is. Having a conscience may assist in that, but I do believe that ultimately it is the power of one’s mind that determines their ability to comprehend such concepts as the oppression of black women in this country, as opposed to the so-called oppression of white women touted by feminism.

        By the way, ever notice how a majority of the most vocal and well-known feminists throughout history have been white? I don’t think that’s a coincidence or an accident in the least, and I think it’s something black women especially should be taking notice of, as it was people of their skin color that weren’t considered fully human when the U.S. was founded, and forty years after feminists succeeded in getting women the right to vote, black people were living through the segregation days, drinking from separate water fountains and having to sit at the back of the bus while white women enjoyed the front.

        • http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/ Girl Writes What

          Most of all the feminists throughout history have been privileged women with time to write or protest or organize. Most women didn’t have that time, and most women 200 years ago would have been unbelievably harmed had the economic changes brought about by modern feminism occurred then.

          Those privileged wealthy women might have been able to be lawyers or doctors. But women were not kept out of “marrying wage” jobs to protect men–they were kept out to protect men’s ability to support women. Men had an obligation to support their families, because most women–back then, before the pill, baby formula and easy, indoor jobs–would NEVER have been able to do that. Privileged women were whining about the “right” to be doctors, without even realizing that competing with men for jobs would undermine society’s ability to hold men to an obligation to support all those millions of women who wouldn’t have been doctors, but would have been working in a brickyard with babies strapped to their breasts, and not even earn a “marrying wage” doing it because competition for jobs would drive everyone’s wages down.

          Every feminist I’ve ever met has never had to do a day of back-breaking physical labor even remotely equivalent to what my grandmother had to do *to keep a house* in 1920. And it’s identical to the lack of thought or care even those early feminists gave other women who were not rich and didn’t have time to do anything other than get by.

          • Skeptic

            Another gem of a comment here from GWW.
            Only need a few million other women who think this way and life will be much improved – sigh.

          • MrStodern

            I’ve recently taken to likening the dynamics between men and women to that of the Elois and the Morlocks from H.G. Wells’ The Time Machine. In fact, I think he just may have been trying to warn us about feminism before it even really existed. Maybe he WAS a time traveler? :P

            Anyways, in case I need to refresh your memory, the Time Traveler journeyed to over 800,000 years in the future, a time where human beings had split into two different species: the Elois, who were dainty, cute, and generally quite lazy and care-free, and the Morlocks, who were ugly, scary-looking, and driven by a strong work ethic.

            On the surface, the relationship between those two seems rather unsavory, since the Morlocks work to keep the Elois alive only because the Morlocks feed upon them, but really, it’s pretty symbiotic. The Elois get to be lazy, and the Morlocks get to eat the best kind of meal on the planet. I mean, why else would the Morlocks eat Elois in the first place? Seems pretty obvious to me that it’s because they’re far more nutritional than anything else Earth has to offer for Morlocks.

            In our world, women have basically played out the role of the Elois, and men are still generally the Morlocks. Men work their asses off to protect and provide for women, and in exchange, get enjoy having a loving and appreciative family. In the world of the Elois and the Morlocks, their version of feminism would come in the form of some especially lazy Eloi who witnessed too many of their comrades getting fed upon by Morlocks, and decided to incite rebellion. The Elois would demand that the Morlocks stop eating them, and allow them to do some of the work.

            Let’s say that the Morlocks acquiesce to this demand. Many of the Elois go underground, learn how to work the machines, and generally struggle to keep up with the Morlocks, as they’re simply not built for that kind of activity. The Morlocks start to ask themselves why they’re letting the Elois intrude, when they could just agree to not eat the Elois, and leave it at that. Eventually, the Morlocks tell the Elois to piss off and go form their own community and build their own machines to attend to their own needs, while the Morlocks tend to theirs.

            The Elois attempt this, but ultimately fail, as, again, they simply aren’t capable. They’ve been allowed to be lazy for too long, and just don’t have what it takes. So they approach the Morlocks and ask them to basically go back to tending to their needs, while also adhering to their vow not to eat the Elois.

            The Morlocks find this to be a shitty proposition, as they now sorely miss having the best nutritional food source on the planet available to them, and have no other reason to work for a bunch of layabouts who can’t take care of themselves. So the Morlocks go back to tending to and eating the Elois.

            Now obviously, women in our world aren’t quite as incompetent as I described the Elois to be, but they are intruding upon the work of men while still demanding that men continue to protect and provide for them, and while also demanding that the benefits of doing so be stripped from men (meaning, men are no longer to be nearly as appreciated and loved for their hard work, it’s just expected of them).

            This of course wouldn’t be a problem if the Elois/women actually were able to truly do what Morlocks/men do, and the two were able to form a more equal partnership. Thanks to feminism, we have some work to do before that can happen.

          • Stu

            I don’t know Sceptic,when you say it like that….a few million it sounds impossible, but it’s not. I’ve heard a lot of guys on MRM sites basically say there is no place for women in the MRM……and I get what they mean because they are thinking of the average women…….or worse. I would say, that they are right in that regard…….however……there is plenty of room for exceptional women in the MRM…..and by exceptional, I don’t mean highly educated, massively talented, blah blah blah……but exceptional in their honesty, empathy for men and boys…..their ability to use logic and reason….and temper their emotions…….unfortunately these qualities have become exceptional in women.

            Women like Izzey, GWW, Typhonblue, Dr.T,, my own good wife Kazzy, and a bunch of others…..sorry for not putting all your names down, but the list is getting rather long….and that is good.

            Having women like this in the MRM makes us more powerful. Our girls share something in common with the feminists, they too can play the pussy pass card, we can’t. They can get away with more than we can. Like it or not, I can say “feminists suck” and men are great as many times and as loud as I like…..women won’t hear me….manginas won’t hear me…..only a woman’s voice carries any weight with them. That is not as it should be, and it’s a crappy situation……but it exists…and it’s a very real barrier to our progress.

            Just as millions of women and manginas followed feminist women into misandry, millions can follow female MRA’s out. Being a female MRA is as sexy as hell, it’s empowering,,,,,,any women who think not…..who do you think is more empowered……women like the MRAs we have here……or whinging, whining, weak ass pathetic, self-proclaimed victims of every little thing, constantly making mountains out of mole hills, which has become the hallmark of feminism.

            I dread the arrival of the fakers, the pretenders, that will surely try to climb onto the band wagon, but I look forward to more women like the ones we seem to be collecting so far.

          • td9red

            @Stu, in reply

            Wouldn’t it be beneficial to convert the average woman, as many women as possible, in fact? Very few people, man or women are exceptional. The main success of the Feminist movement, the Civil Rights movement was convincing nearly everyone that they were right! It can be done. Though, you guys have to be a little less hard on the girls…

          • DruidV

            @red

            You just don’t give up, do you?

          • Kimski

            @Stu:

            *Standing ovations!!!*

          • Stu

            @tr9red

            Well, you have to remember that we are fighting misandry, all the feminist double standards, their lies, their bullshit statistics, their denial of all areas where men have, and always have had it far worse than women………so……it does no good to allow any and all women to join our movement. There has to be a requirement that they have abandoned the ideas of feminism……feminism is the enemy after all. Of course there are degrees.

            Take the Russian troll that was hanging here. A total lost cause…..brainwashed, unwilling to change….a total waste of time talking to her, the site is better off just booting her arse straight out as soon as she shows her colors, except maybe to allow her to show her colors enough as an advertisement and example of……”this is what a feminist looks like”

            Some women are brainwashed, but not beyond reaching.

            Have you seen the movie the matrix? There is one scene where someone is explaining that the people in the pods, in the matrix, are totally unaware that they are in a matrix. These people will behave as their enemies until they are freed from the matrix, and they are their enemies…they don’t know any better. But as a requirement to be considered for unplugging from the matrix, they must demonstrate potential.

            The red pill is pretty hard to swallow even for a man. For a women it must be much more bitter,

            We want a lot of things, to many to list, but all very reasonable, and fair, if you base fair on what is actually fair, not the feminist version.

            Example. I live under a law that says, if my wife and I argue, and I raise my voice…..I’m a violent criminal…..if I withdraw and remain silent….that is also domestic violence……if I refuse to give her money she requests….that is domestic violence also…….but if I demand she gives me some of her money…..that is domestic violence by me also. If she says she feels afraid of me…..police have to take me away…..she doesn’t need a valid reason to be afraid of me….just say she feels it. But if she hits me…..throws things at me…..kicks, bites and punches me……thats fine…..and I am guilty of domestic violence if I push past her to get out the door.

            This is just one very small slice of a giant shit sandwich that includes nearly every facet of mens lives now.

            This is the world I live in……women are the slave owners…….and men are slaves. And all we hear everyday, on every form of media is more bullshit from feminists…crying about what a horrible world they live in….and how great men have it…and what pigs we are.

            If you have an open mind…..read widely on this site…and The False Rape Society…..and Angry Harry…..yes, we are hard hitting….but we were soft hitting for years…..and our rights just got eroded more and more……so sorry…but it’s no more Mr Nice Guy for the MRM.

          • td9red

            @Stu, in reply

            Understood

            Also, in any movement there are various different factions. Some of which are more or less radical than others. They may not actually work together. But, together they can reach a broader audience that is as “in your face” or “not in your face” as is comfortable for everyone. One of the less “in your face” sites, Fathers and Families (Glenn Sacks). Initially, I didn’t like him. But after reading all the articles on the website I don’t see how any women or man would not support addressing the issues discussed on the site.

          • td9red

            @DruidV, in reply

            I have a “thick” head, an opinion on just about everything, and it nearly makes me h*orny when someone can convince me to think about something in away I never considered.

            Furthermore, no one ever calls me bad names. . . If I went away, I would miss being berated by some of you. ;D

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/MRAGreatestHits MRA-GH

    Great article. Love your video’s as well. When my baby boy was born, I had to express in no uncertain terms that there would be serious and continuous concequences and repercussions if the idea was not dropped immediately and permanently. You know I think at the end of the day it was dropped only because it just seemed like ‘too much drama’ and no other reason. It would have been too! Taking to my boy with a scalpel would not have ended well.

  • Skeptic

    Hey Stu,
    I never said the task was impossible, just huge – as a few million women who think like GWW and life would be much improved that’s all.

  • MrStodern

    Wouldn’t it be beneficial to convert the average woman, as many women as possible, in fact?

    Most women alive today are a lost cause. They’ve grown up too dependent upon the system working in their favor, and they will not let go. It’s the future generations of women (and men) that we have hope in.

    Very few people, man or women are exceptional.

    Irrelevant. You don’t have to be exceptional to not have your head up your ass.

    Though, you guys have to be a little less hard on the girls…

    As in the girls who’ve yet to pull their head out of their ass? Or never had it up there to begin with? No. They do not deserve special treatment. We will be just as harsh with them as we are with blue pill men and white knights. The second we ease up, they gain ground, and that is unacceptable.

    No more coddling women. Women want to be an exception to all the rules that apply to men, then they can get back in the kitchen and earn it. Since none of them want to do that, their privileges are hereby revoked. THAT is equality.

  • Zorro

    It’s just my opinion, but I am convinced that–no matter how many men comprise the MRM–it is doomed to failure unless at least a third of its population is female.

    We need women, lots of them, if we are to disconnect the heads of feminists (male and female) from their assholes. If only men argue for men’s rights, the feminist men will call us all woosies and the fembots will call us misogynist. Because that will be the appearance.

    A sizable and well-versed female population brings with it profound validation and a presence of fairness.

    • Rog

      you wont find much sympathy in this point of view we fight with facts and logic we will win on that not on how many women approve of our message and join us….

    • Tim Legere

      I absolutely agree with the need for more women in the MRM to bring about success. However, I disagree with the number/population required (e.g. one-third). I, for one, believe that a smaller critical mass of women with exceptional voices (i.e. give me quality over quantity) will ultimately allow us to influence both women and men to consider our message and change. Its already happening with the women we see her (i.e. Izzey, Dr. T.,Typhoon Blue and Girl Writes What, etc.) and I am hopeful it will continue as our Voice becomes stronger, louder and more articulate and persuasive.

      • MrStodern

        I believe that population of converted women should be quite small, because quite frankly, I don’t view the majority of feminists to be capable of conversion because I believe very strongly that a lack of a conscience is the primary factor in them being feminists in the first place.

        With future generations of women, however, if a majority of them are born with consciences, we don’t even really need to reach out to them or try to keep the number small, since having a conscience severely inhibits ones ability to embrace feminism. And if you’re not a feminist, I don’t see how you couldn’t be an MRA practically by default. If you’re not a feminist, most likely, you’re going to the misandry around you at some point.

        Granted, we should continue to distribute red pills wherever and whenever possible. That is essential. But men (young and old) are the ones that most need to be woken up. After all, it was men who fell asleep at the wheel that allowed feminism to take hold in the first place. Men had the power to stop it dead in its tracks long ago, they just fumbled.

        A sizable and well-versed female population brings with it profound validation and a presence of fairness.

        The pervasive attitude that the thoughts and perspectives of any number of men being susceptible to dismissal without the “validation” of women who share those thoughts and perspectives, is a prime symptom of feminism, and when feminism dies, so shall it. It is precisely the attitude that absolutely MUST GO.

        Although I do recognize that our voices being bolstered by those of women who do not have their head up their ass is necessary to an extent, the fact of the matter is, the majority of feminists today are not going to be joining hands with us as we walk into a brighter future. They’re going to be left behind as the awakened men and women absent of hate from birth share that great journey.

        Embrace not those who just got done clubbing you over the head and are now apologizing. Instead, welcome the ones who defended you in the name of justice.

    • Stu

      Exactly, but we can’t turn into a group that allows any women in regardless of their beliefs and attitudes. They have to be held to exactly the same standards as the men that want to be here. They have to be here to fight for men’s rights, not to provide a balanced argument, or include feminist views in our argument. It’s society that needs to become balanced, and since everything in society is weighted towards women’s rights, we need to be a counter weight.

      We don’t accept men coming here and joining our movement and calling themselves MRAs while constantly bringing up women’s wants and needs and saying “yeah but………” to every MRA counter argument to feminist views……..so we should not accept women doing either. We can’t allow our movement to be co-opted by women…….if that happens…….we become the Good Mangina Project.

      The fact is that even if we allow masses of what would you call them……average women……you know…….I’m not a feminist….but…….that type……if we let them in……pretty soon we’ll have to water down our rhetoric…..men will be getting booted out for swearing……upsetting women’s feelings will become a crime here…..as it is everywhere else…..and the feminazis will have an open door…….and before you know it we’ll all be wearing pink ribbons and raising money for breast cancer research.

      So the standard had to be…….for men, and women, you are an MRA, fighting for the rights of men, or you don’t matter to us.

      • MrStodern

        They have to be here to fight for men’s rights, not to provide a balanced argument, or include feminist views in our argument.

        Exactly. Acknowledgement that it’s men’s suffering that gets ignored is essential. We don’t need reminding that women get raped and shit, we’ve had that hammered into our heads since they day we were born. And we especially don’t need to constantly be hearing about the very few times that women lose their kids in a divorce, or get screwed in divorce court, or lose their jobs to a sexual harassment complaint, or any of the number of negative things that happen to men far more often. Not our fault or our problem. We’re the only ones concerned with men’s rights, everyone else focuses on women’s. Leave that shit at the fucking door.

    • Gordius Knot

      Zorro!! You are are astutely sagacious!!! Unless we guys enlist our women in this, the feminists will win. And when I say “our women” I am not using the possessive. I mean the gals who are, or will be, our helpmates…the ones who will run along-side us for a lifetime. I sense there’s a whole sea-full of them and that GirlWritesWhat isn’t just an anomaly. Christ, I hope so…if not, our future is dim…but then, so is theirs.

  • Tim Legere

    @GWW

    On the Lighter Side …

    I understand that the article’s title and content suggest and ultimately lead the reader to compare and contrast the abuse of baby boys (via circumcision / genital mutilation) with the torture/killing of turtles while they are still alive.

    In my opinion both of these practices need to end.

    However, were you also thinking (either consciously or unconsciously) of the physical similarities between a turtle’s head/neck and a male’s uncircumcised penis?

    They do kinda look and operate the same eh?

    Note: To any/all who might take offense, please re-read my first line.

    • http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/ Girl Writes What

      I wasn’t thinking of that, no. But now I keep thinking of that episode of Seinfeld, after George gets out of the pool.

      Elaine: It shrinks???

      Jerry: Like a frightened turtle!

      Elaine: Why does it shrink?

      George: It just does.

      Elaine: I don’t know how you guys walk around with those things…

    • Gordius Knot

      Tim, REAL MEN HAVE FORESKINS. It seems only ignorant women and apellous males make these penile denigrating remarks.

  • MrStodern

    You can fix the traditional.

    Yes, yes you can. And we should.

    It just means men and women need to actually understand each other.

    Well it isn’t just limited to that, but understanding one another is a part of it.

    Bear in mind that when I think of men and women coming to an understanding, I envision men and women who are not feminists, as feminists are not reasonable, and are not willing to budge on certain things. They lack the capacity to understand men because they also lack the desire to. That’s why they are to be left behind as we make progress.

    Real women on the other hand, are reasonable enough. They understand and acknowledge that we have to work together, and that our differences/strengths can help one another, not just ourselves, and that our partnership is not one of domination by either gender.

    • http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/ Girl Writes What

      I’d like to see hypergamy go, but I honestly don’t think it will. Looking at it from the outside of it (I’m not acquisitive or status-oriented or any of that), it seems to be an instinctive behavioral trait on the part of women that would have been so successful it must be extremely pervasive.

      And women’s sexual freedom (as much as I love my sexual freedom) is counterproductive when it comes to “evolving out” both hypergamy and the male traits feminists have deemed “bad”. Women have more choice than ever as to whose DNA goes into their kids. For the most part, they’ll keep making hypergamous choices, and those traits will continue to be passed on.

      The ironic thing is that if monogamous, lifelong marriage had remained enforced legally and socially, that, combined with DNA testing and fair divorce laws (you cheat or cuckold a guy, you get nothing), might have pressured women to make different choices with respect to sexual partners (think harder about who they have kids with), and select OUT the dark triad alph-hole traits over several generations.

      • Skeptic

        This is where I think the non hormonal male birth control pill

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7857262/Scientists-invent-first-male-contraceptive-pill.html

        will make a difference and one of the reasons I’d like to see much more MRA discussion about it.
        At the moment women hold all the reproductive ace cards, but the NHMBCP will change that.

        It will tip the mate selection process on it’s head.

        One small pill = 1 – 3 months protection from creating a pregnancy and any possibility of paternity fraud (being cuckolded).
        That’s a thing of immense beauty and power right there.
        It terrifies feminists so much they have since it’s report in news been HUGELY silent about it.
        That tells me a great deal.

        • td9red

          I think the development of a male birth control pill would be fabulous and just as beneficial to women as men. I don’t understand why Feminist groups would be against a male birth control pill. I haven’t actually read about any opposition to a male birth control pill from any Feminist groups.

          With a male birth control pill men would have reproductive control they have never had before. For women who would be uncomfortable trusting their mate to remember to take the pill, I have not read any articles about this pill or the other male birth control option in the works that would prevent a women from also taking her own birth control pill. In this way the effectiveness of the contraceptive would be increased as if her pill were to fail, hopefully his would be effective at preventing a pregnancy and vis-versa.

          • Stu

            It wouldn’t be beneficial to women because as it is, women have total control…..not just of not becoming pregnant if they don’t want to……but of becoming pregnant if they want to. If men had a reliable pill, free from side affects….then women would have to ask and obtain a man’s permission to have his child. Feminists see that as taking away the right of a woman to choose…..for her and the man.

      • MrStodern

        I think a very big part of what today’s women see as beneficial traits in men is very sexist, and not at all based on a fair measure of men in general.

        For example, men don’t really choose the potential mothers of their children based on the old ideas of what a good mother would be anymore, mainly because those traits don’t exist in women in general these days. A long time ago, a woman was a potentially good mother if she was a good cook, knew how to clean, was compassionate, patient, and dedicated to their partner. Today’s women don’t cook, clean, show any compassion towards men, or any patience, or dedication.

        And yet, they’re still free to demand all the same things from men that they always have (mainly money). This is, of course, hardly an actual side effect of women’s liberation. No, it’s a symptom of feminism’s toxicity.

        Let’s say men and women alike are fully liberated one day. To me, that means men aren’t frowned upon for wanting to stay home with the kids, and women do not frown upon fully inheriting what was once a man’s job. This of course requires that the majority of women seek an entirely different set of traits in men, as well as exhibit a very different set of traits than most of them do now.

        Essentially, when it comes to our aspects, men and women are to swap (the majority of them anyway). If this is truly impossible, if that really cannot be done, then it’s only fair that men in general return to demanding the kinds of traits in women that we’re traditionally supposed to be looking for, and hold women to it like we used to.

        I don’t think it’s impossible though, and I especially feel that the wall in our way of achieving a sense of fair play is feminism. It is that ideology that holds men to their traditional expectations while freeing women from theirs, and once that ideology has crumbled, we can begin the process of freeing men just as we freed women.

        Or, it’ll be at that point that women in general go back to the kitchen, and men continue to be looked at for their resources for good reason, and once again have good reason to seek partnerships with women.

      • Stu

        I laugh at these people who insist that women are naturally monogamous. Yeah right, they don’t get out much, but apart from that, if they were naturally monogamous, why did they have to have all these laws regarding infidelity in the past.

        It’s pretty obvious that social shaming, chastity belts, stoning to death for adultery, all sorts of other legal and social sanctions were all invented because women were naturally monogamous. Something tells me that left to their own desires….they were running around banging whoever took their fancy. Why did they need all these measures to induce monogamy in a naturally monogamous creature LOL

        I look at the rules of the past as being appropriate and required at the time. Civilisation was built because of the formation of families and the harnessing of male utility. The trade off for men being protectors and providers for women and children……was that those children were theirs…..and the only way he can know that in a time where contraception was non-existent, is if the woman is not fucking anybody else.

        Regardless of who the father of a child may be, a woman always knows the child is hers……and the man doesn’t, unless the possibility of another man being the father is removed. Also, in small villages, townships, tribes, if everyone was bonking who they liked, the chances of you knocking your sister up would be great. In fact, nobody would know who their father was….their brother…..their sister…..cousins…nothing….only the mother.

        So the sexual nature of both women and men had to be curbed for the building blocks of civilisation to be sound, and to give men a reason to play ball in the first place.

  • Skeptic

    “With a male birth control pill men would have reproductive control they have never had before”.

    That’s why there’s wall to wall silence from feminists about it’s arrival. It will undermine pussy power hugely.

    • Stu

      I don’t think it will undermine pussy power, but it will undermine pregy power.

    • td9red

      A male birth control pill should be viewed as a great relief to women. At this point women are solely responsible for avoiding pregnancy and women generally shoulder all the blame. All of the contraceptives available to women today have numerous side effects. A male pill would place men on even keel with women as to the responsibility for avoiding unwanted pregnancies. It may even alleviate the need for the so called, “male abortion.” I don’t see how a guy could claim he was dupped into fatherhood if a male pill were available. A male pill is probably as close to reproductive equality as we could hope to get.

    • MrStodern

      Too bad it comes from Israel, since that means for us Americans that it’ll be six years at the least before we start getting it here.

      Whenever I peruse the web fro information on a male birth control pill, I keep running into the same issue: lack of appropriate funding.

      Gee, I wonder why that is?

  • Lucian Vâlsan (vilo13)

    Hey, I just translated this article into Romanian. Can be found here http://vilo13.blogspot.com/2011/12/baietei-si-broaste-testoase.html# and it mentions the source.

    I hope there is no problem with this.

    Regards.

    P.S.: I am also involved in a hard work program to subtitle most of manwomanmyth’s videos.

  • rgoltn

    Love your blog and posts. I am a MRM supporter. However, I must disagree with your viewpoint on circumcision. While you look at it as a trauma to boys and how horrible it is to them, I look at it in a totally different light.

    If you are Jewish, it is a right of passage. While many people say it has to do with cleanliness and that is understandible as kosher laws are based on cleanliness. Thousands of years ago, one did not have refrigeration, irradiation or pasteurization. So, mixing milk and meat caused disease. Eating animals that fed of the waste of other animals was also considered bad. So, kosher laws addressed those issues.

    Nowadays, it is more about religious tradition and less about cleanliness. The same goes with circumcision. Its roots have very little to do with cleanliness and everything to do with ones’ committment to god. Being circumcised as a jewish male is to have a covenant with god.

    It is a reminder one’s devotion and life to one god – yahweh. Nowadays, people discuss it as a cleanliness thing and people talk about how they have been violated. As a jew, I look at it as a minor sacrifice and devotionto god and being the best person I can be.

    Modern day society has adopted it and many people, like yourself do not like it. So, do not have your kids “cut.” For most jews, it is a non-issue and a non-negotiable act.

    • Paul Elam

      Yeah, I know of a lot of other signs of devotion to God, many of them resulting in dead people. If men want to self mutilate their supposedly God given bodies in order to prove their faith, I many think it is crazy and senseless, but I don’t argue against their right to do so. Doing that to children, infants who cannot choose, takes religious dogma to a sick and sadistic low.

    • Peegies

      Ignoring the secular reasons against circumcision, I have only to say that not everybody is Jewish – most of America is some denomination of protestant christian, and they still circumcise their children.

      If your reason for doing this is religious I don’t really have a problem and won’t stop you. My reasons are mostly related to personal issues and trying to understand how a religious practice can be pushed in a way that seems to be an objective standard.

      (all penes should be cut. uncut penes are ew)

  • Peegies

    I didn’t even realize it was GWW until after I read the first comment. I think that’s a good thing (I don’t have any bias when it comes to authors).

    I think these articles are very helpful. It used to be a trigger (i know this site seems to jest about the term ‘trigger’ but it does exist) topic for me because I couldn’t understand how women could be so callous about it. Or to state with a straight face that men ‘have to’ be cut, lest they lose mating opportunity with her (who cares?), appear disgusting (a ridiculous and subjective claim lauded as objective truth), or some other nonsense like the ones related to STDs (WEAR A CONDOM). But mostly because I’ve argued for days about it before.

    Finally I calmed down and realized my experiences in life with my partners do not conform to this bigotry – and I was able to talk to intelligent women who not only don’t mind an unmutilated penis but agree and soothe my anger when I rage about this topic.

    The other day I read a Dan Savage (Savage Love) letter where a man recounted a story. You might like it – sadly I didn’t finish reading the letter to see the response:

    I once dated a woman who asked me to have a circumcision for her. I replied that I would gladly have a circumcision as long as she had one with me. She flipped out and yelled at me, calling me sexist.

    Normally this story would piss me off. Instead I was able to laugh it off and called the woman an idiot. I’m not cured per se, but it’s happening.

    Just vomiting my thoughts on this topic.

  • the tall one

    “How can we expect him–command him–to suffer for the benefit of women and society if we care about sparing him pain? If we could climb into his skin and imagine ourselves there, experience the full spectrum of the fear he hides, the pain he conquers, the anguish he suppresses, the loneliness he buries, the helplessness he denies?”

    That tugged a string. as an emotionally-retarded cold-hearted piece of furniture.