Where is the counter argument?
I’ve been an outspoken MRA for a few years now, and I’ve noticed that despite the overwhelming opposition to any argument for male rights, there are no substantive counter-arguments. No arguments whatsoever. Opponents of men’s rights have no trouble reciting false facts, debunked talking points, fabricated studies, and obvious lies in support of their religion of female victimhood and male villainy, but lies are not arguments. They’re just lies.
- 1 in 4 women is raped, sexually assaulted, battered or abused – is a lie [1]
- The wage gap – is a lie [2][3]
- Women’s historical oppression – is a lie
- Rape culture – is a lie[4][5]
- The inherent violence of masculinity – is a lie
- The inherent goodness of femininity – is a lie
- The idea that feminism is about equality – is a lie
By contrast, whenever I or any other MRA fields an argument in defence of mens rights, or critical of feminism, it is never met with a counter argument. The arguments of MRAs are met with accusations, shaming language, insults, threats, blackmail, violence, censure, censorship, cooked up criminal charges, vandalism, imprisonment and other calumny.
My article critical of the institution of marriage was answered by feminists accusing me of being gay,
…
…of being bitter, of having a small penis, or social ineptitude, of financial impotence, of living in my mother’s basement, of body odour, and of tenancies to hatred, violence, and pedophilia. Of those critical of my article, none actually addressed the substance of the argument made. None.
My article deconstructing the feminist goal of reversing the burden of proof in accusation of sexual assault was met by feminists who called me a rapist, a bigot, a woman beater, a loser, a violent criminal, and a sociopath. Not even one criticism addressed the substance of my article, and Jessica Valenti likely still wants women to be killed.
One of the first articles I wrote exploring the relationship between central banking and the funding stream of organized feminism was answered by a feminist on a different continent whose best rebuttal was to re-present each point of my argument – leaving out, and adding, key points to make them easy to refute in a straw-man attack–then to call me a stalker. A stalker on another continent.
In response to my arguments, I have been variously subject to shaming attacks, censorship, straw-man arguments, false accusations of violent crimes by people thousands of miles away, accusations of pedophilia, of rape, denounced as a psychopath, a serial killer, as maladjusted, as a loser, as a racist, and all manner of villainy. Almost none of my philosophical opponents have fielded anything approaching a substantive argument, or have addressed me with anything except lies and abuse, and a few threats of death too.
I wont make any pious declarations of my own lack of violent, criminal or deviant behavior. Why bother? I also will not shut up and go away. I will never shut up.
I. Will. Never. Shut. Up.
What I will do for my loudest and most amoral critics is to offer a few suggestions
- Admit that your position is unethical, and that you are purely self centered and devoid of anything like an ethical compass
- Admit that your continued insistence on women’s eternal victimhood is designed to take adult agency away from the members of the sexual demographic you supposedly care so much about
- Admit that you want to force women’s and men’s behavior into a mode of compliant service to your own greed and sadism
- Admit that your ethic is built on lies and violence
- Admit to yourself that even though you lack the muscle and the courage to commit violence yourself, your philosophy depends absolutely on violence done by others on your behalf
- Admit that those who do violence on your behalf, when they have scrubbed the field of anyone who dares to disagree – those enforcers will turn on you
- Recognize that when your political will has been imposed by force on everybody around you, you will discover that you are locked into a tiny cage as well
You see, I recognize that in spite of my optimism and my repeated attempts to open dialog or discussion with the ideological opponents of the men’s rights movement – there will be no civilized discourse between us. The reason is that feminism’s active proponents have no interest in truth, nor in justice, nor in human rights, nor in protecting anyone from harm, least of all women. Despite a nearly omnipresent narrative of “protecting women” mainstream feminism is a sham which depends on escalating social carnage to maintain a control on public conscience and to secure streams of funding.
I recognize that the opponents of the men’s rights movement are organized,
…
…violent, hateful bigots, and the only reason you cannot be correctly called criminals is that your ideology now controls the courts, and thus the definition of what it means to be a criminal. I also recognize that soon, individuals doing nothing more corrosive than simply speaking out, will soon be named criminal.
A man I held in high esteem recently died, and I will repeat a statement of his now. “When your conscience says the law is immoral, don’t follow it.”
Past and present efforts to silence, shame, marginalize, and subvert the efforts of men’s rights activists demonstrate that what we are saying about our opponents, the enemies of human rights, is not exaggeration, or conspiracy theory, instead it is understatement.
I’ll restate what I said earlier.
I. Will. Never. Shut. Up.
The fact that shutting me up, and shutting up other MRAs is a major goal is illustrative of just what we oppose. The truth does not require state funded enforcers. Now, in addition to not shutting up, and in light of my, and other’s increased understanding of just who and what you are who oppose the men’s movement – namely that you are violent, lying hypocrites lacking interest in truth, and consumed with a self serving philosophy which relies on escalating harm to those you pretend to protect. I don’t mind telling you, I am no longer here to debate, or to reason, or to converse, or to hope you may be reached by logic or evidence.
I am here to fuck your shit up.
And in that, I am not alone. Now I don’t mean to stoop to the use of lies or violence. You are practiced at those tactics, and frankly, I don’t need them. You may also wonder, what can a few disgruntled MRAs do that you should be concerned about? And to that, I can only say – watch, and learn.
[2]: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html?mod=wsj_share_reddit
[3]: http://consad.com/index.php?page=an-analysis-of-reasons-for-the-disparity-in-wages-between-men-and-women
[4]: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv09.pdf
[5]: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv10.pdf
Tags: Activism, Criminal Justice, explorer, Feminist governance, Feminist lies, Feminist McCarthyism, Hate Movement, Manuel Dexter, Miscellaneous, Real Activism
248 Posts in Total
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Dean Esmay:
malcolm:
Icyx:
Near Earth Object:
Wow
Good job.
Sorry, I have nothing more to say…
Good rant Manuel. I think I told someone in a previous thread who was getting very depressed and upset about how he can’t get feminists to concede anything, even when he presents 100% proof, they continue to sprout previously debunked lies. I told him that it’s not worth debating with feminists. We post and write and spread by word of mouth the truth and the facts for the benefit of ignorant men and women who have not drunk so much feminist kool aid that they are converted to feminist zombies and manginas.
The effort is to vacinate the un-indocrinated. There is no cure for an indocrinated woman, and the only cure for an indoctrinated man is to become a victim of the feminist monster himself, or at least his son or someone he cares about and knows to be underserving of the carnage they heap on him.
The fact is that feminists don’t believe the lies they tell. How can they beleive them, they know they made them up. Getting the gullible public to believe them though is what keeps their gravy train rolling. What these morons don’t realise is that the gravy train they are aboard is heading full steam towards a cliff. As more and more men become fodder for their course, the enemies to their cause grow and grow, and covers all walks of life. How many politicians have been forced out of their jobs because of accusations by women, without any proof. How many policeman, how many family members and friends of those people have been forced to swallow the red pill because of what has happened to their family members and friends.
I have a friend is leaving the police force soon for this precise reason. He will not continue to attend domestic violence scenes and arrest men he knows are innocent. He will not continue to serve as protector to lying bitch women who are using the law as a weapon for personal revenge. How many police officers have these thoughts. How many are gagging as they listen to the anti male sensitivity training they must undergo.
Your enemies are piling up feminists. The divorce laws, the defacto relationship laws, child support laws, sexual harrassment laws…….every day they are making more MGTOW and MRAs for us…..and you think it is sites like these that are manufacturing these men…….it’s not….it’s you. I’m sure you will keep your MRA factory going full tilt until the vast majority of men and a great deal of women…..every man has a mother, or sister, or wife, or girlfriend, or some women that care about him remember. In the end, if the totolatarian police state you are constructing doesn’t get you, the collapse that is ensured by having so many men that have no interest in keeping our society going, and a very big interest in seeing it collapse, will render you and your kind jobless, homeless, and very very sorry.
” I told him that it’s not worth debating with feminists.”
I actually disagree… to a point.
For those of us with the tenacity and patience, it can actually be quite beneficial to debate with feminists, particularly on more neutral sites. As doing so can show other readers exactly what this article describes, that men have valid concerns and those concerns are largely being dismissed for no good reason (or due to feminist bigotry).
That said, it requires a degree of patience and civility, not because feminists deserve it, but because we aren’t raving ranting lunatics, like many feminists try to make us out to be (and that is an attitude we do need to overcome, as societal bigotry against men has allowed the view of MRA’s as just more hostile men to set too easily, and the occasional misogynist poster using Men’s rights to justify their hate makes us all look bad). Due to this requirement, it is not for everyone, and that’s OK too.
It also helps (me) because it forces me to go out and find proof of the various things they claim to be true, like a recent claim VAWA funding doesn’t discriminate against men got ruined when I posted this :
http://www.menshealthnetwork.org/library/VAWArejectDallas1202.pdf
I would never have found this had I not been debating feminists (even though it was posted on MensHealthNetwork).
Yes and that is the benefit of debating with feminists, the spectators can witness the debate. But it’s no use getting upset about not being able to convert feminists, or make them see how full of it they are. Yes, debate with the intent of convincing the undecided audience, not the feminist.
It’s actually to our advantage that they are so pig headed and will not back off. How many feminist sites show statistics like 1 in 4. How many newcomers see evidence presented that exposes that figure as a completely fabricated lie…….yet the site still reports this figure as a factual figure……and how many of these feminist sites delete evidence to the contrary. Actions like that expose them for what they are.
I agree. I’ve found debating feminists to be beneficial in forcing you to get better evidence, find golden nuggets of data and information you would have NEVER found if the debate itself didn’t force you etc… etc…
As long as you know that you’re not going to convert her/him, debating with feminists is fine, as long as you know its for the benefit of random passerbyiers (who will be swayed by what you say) and because it allows you to strengthen your argumentation – again, you need that argumentation for the people on the fences.
So – you can see debating with feminists almost like a training simulation.
I used to subscribe to a publication called “Aid & Abet” by a group in Idaho that was trying to get police and military to refuse unjust orders among other things.
I now watch cop shows with an eye out for these types of “arrests” for DV….you see them every once in a while…….Its sickening when you see them happen in real time on a tv program.
Fantastic article! Could you please send a copy of this to Mississippi State University’s Campus Sexual Assault Services, which routinely plasters the walls and bulletin boards with the one-in-four lie at our university? Could you also please send a copy to the sorority here at MSU that started the “Ask Her” Campaign last semester which littered cafeteria tables with the message “Ask Her” and “Prevent the Campus Rape Crisis”? I would be glad if I could gain your permission to use my word processor to make this into a pamphlet to distribute during the “Clothesline Project” to the girls screaming at boys here about sexual assault (yes this really happened here last year) and to the participants of the “Walk A Mile In Her Heels” march which both take place every semester here. Actually, I would probably just get physically attacked, arrested, and dismissed from this misandric cunt hole of a school. But it may be more feasible to distribute this anonymously
take the whole article – use it.
Thanks.
Here is another example of how feminists will continue to make enemies out of everyone until there is nobody left. Now, everyone knows how the education system is discriminating against men and boys, and every campus has practically become a breading ground for misandry. Affirmative action also designed to give advantages to women, and discriminate against men and boys.
Well, in spite of the fact the they universaties and colleges have been the biggest ally the feminists have ever had, churning out man hating research and studies and supporting every action to further womens rights and empowerment, we have women like this one below
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/College-Grad-Cant-Find-Job-Wants–Back-52304162.html
I really really hope that this woman succeeds and sueing the pants of them, and I hope it opens a flood gate of litigation from tens of thousands of women all over the country lol.
Apparently they claimed the 70% of there graduates obtain employment……that means 30% don’t gain employment. So…..she’s in the 30% that don’t……but she feels she had a promise of employment.
I hope they award her billions…..lets add pain and suffering….maybe a multiple rape charge, on account of her having to hit the streets because she can’t find a job.
Oh what a victim.
She’s going to SUE her SCHOOL?????
Now, now, thats awful, wheres that “school spirit”??? ….LOLOLOLOL
Feminists are bigots, they are not people who are making an honest intellectual mistake. You might as well argue with a Klansman as with the average feminist.
“…of being bitter, of having a small penis, or social ineptitude, of financial impotence, of living in my mother’s basement, of body odour, and of tenancies to hatred, violence, and pedophilia. Of those critical of my article, none actually addressed the substance of the argument made. None.”
…but i know as you know why they say these things instead of making a counter-argument.
Because they can’t make one (facts are tough things, as my friend would say), so they are trying to kill your character.
I’m sure that we all realize that much of what passes here and in other forums would get categorized as “hate speech” by feminists, in accordance with recent hate crimes legislation. But you know what? I doubt that any attempt to apply hate crimes legislation to what we discuss will get off the ground, because it will then force a spotlight onto one of the most hateful phenomena in human history. I say, bring it on! Let us spell out exactly how hateful, toxic, dishonest and repugnant feminists are, let us bring it into the bright light of day and have it tested in a court of law (insofar as I can say that without bursting out laughing, after the Vladek Filler case). That must be one hell of a bind for these vermin, to be ever aware that their very own, feminist-inspired laws can be used against them, if they’re not careful. I’ve seen them try, but do they really have the guts to see it through? Do they really know what’s good for them? Testing the feminists will also put the gubmint under the microscope, because the breadth and scope of their toxic agenda, as reflected in blatantly sexist laws as they have never existed before, will also be open to scrutiny. If tested in a “court of law” [sic], we are in a better position to demonstrate conclusively that they are the more hateful party. How might the courts, á la Mary Kellett, feel about having their own hateful, biased agenda exposed? It’s an interesting bind. Do feminists indeed have the guts? Or rather, are they stupid enough? I kinda hope they are.
“Because they can’t make one (facts are tough things, as my friend would say), so they are trying to kill your character.”
- thehermit
… which is why it is so very important to practice rhetorical discipline. Practicing rhetorical discipline is nothing more and nothing other than saying what needs to be said without offering up any ‘grappling points’ that your enemy can latch onto in order to steer the conversation away from the logical argument you have presented.
Rhetorical discipline is about knowing what not to say, how not to say it, and when not to say it.
http://counterfem.blogspot.com/search?q=rhetorical+discipline
Read all posts.
Fidelbogens posts on the subject should be required reading for everyone.
I. Will. Never. Shut. Up.
Ditto that!
I would suggest we have 20 + years work, really hard work ahead – so be it.
I just don’t think that feminists can be reasoned with, since I seriously doubt if they have the capacity to fathom basic logics.
I think the best way to deal with them is just like what we did with any brainwashed idiots: pretend to agree with them on the surface, then gradually and secretively tell the un-infected people the truth. Finally, the cult memebers would find that people no longer stand on their side, and it will be too late for them.
Feminists can’t even keep their own thoughts straight.
Take this feministe site I was linked to by way of Findelbogen. In a blog submission about miniskirts a woman who goes by the name of “Jill” says:
“No good was going to come to these two women that night. Best case scenario: one of them would walk above a subway grate and the world would see what kind of bikini wax she was rocking, and her stiletto would inevitably catch (those subway grates are a real bitch on skinny heels) and she’d twist her ankle and end up in the emergency room. Worst case scenario: Some a-hole would take one look at them and sense an easy target.”
Took a look at that last sentence and then quickly searched to see if she was in support of the ludicrous Slut Walks. Surely enough she does. She’s contradicting herself within two months of blog posts. This is who you’re supposed to listen to?
“My article deconstructing the feminist goal of reversing the burden of proof in accusation of sexual assault was met by feminists who called me a rapist, a bigot, a woman beater, a loser, a violent criminal, and a sociopath. Not even one criticism addressed the substance of my article, and Jessica Valenti likely still wants women to be killed.”
Now imagine women with this kind of mind set and ill sentiments towards men, sitting in a courtroom as jurors where men are being maliciously prosecuted for rape, paedophilia, DV, sexual assault etc that are made up lies by women. Instead of just arbitrarily calling a man a rapist, they can now punish them! That is what women are being conditioned to do to men!
It seems that women are the biggest bigots in the world patently guilty of sexual discrimination like no other with impunity as they infect society with their poisonous thinking.
The worst thing that men could do is to remain silent. We must speak up and speak up loudly, often. We must repeat our concerns and voice them over and over again until our message is heard. We must vehemently fight for our rights until changes are made to enable men to function in society without the wanton malicious attacks that is fervently exerted against men driven by a sick ideology crafted by feminism.
I agree with Manuel Dexter, that I will NEVER shut up either. I too have been attacked by feminists, some who even spoofed me and had me appear on child pornography sites. That is the extreme these ill minded women go to in an attempt to silence men. It definitely won’t work with me.
Feminists don’t use counter arguments because they don’t have any and are forced to rely on outright lies and innuendo. Of course it isn’t just the feminists who use the “you must be gay” tactic. The “Little Boy’s I work with used to call me gay because I don’t drink beer, don’t like to watch other little boy’s play with their balls (sports) and I hate feminism with a passion (so therefor in their eyes I must hate women).
True. I dealt with that stuff when I was a teenager. I’m a grown adult now and no man has teased me for this in a decade, however, women still do it all the time.
I had an argument with a feminist/liberal friend last night. I presented Milton Friedman’s argument that minimum wage (Also seen as “equal pay for equal work”) is sexist. After finishing, I wanted to see what he thought. His response was this: “Well maybe we should just kill all women; I mean that’s what you’re saying.”
As far as I know, Friedman was a Libertarian and would never endorse mass murder. The myopic brainwashed view of the feminist mind is very troubling.
Yes, that’s what they do with every issue. If you disagree with the feminist sexual harrassment law that dictate, if a woman “feels” like you have harrassed her, then you have…….then if you don’t agree with that…..you must want all women to be pack rapes and murdered in the workplace …..and then tortured to death.
This is typical projection, because I really do think that feminists want any man who disagrees with any of their views, demands, etc……to be tortured to death. And I think most feminists would actually start exterminating those men if they could.
It’s black and white thinking, no different to racism.
Just the very mention of how VAWA abrogates the rights of men caused one of the “Little Boy’s” I work with to retort: “So you think that it’s ok for men to beat women?” Sad to say that the individual who asked me this is in a leadership position and even sadder still the majority of “Little Boy’s” I know actually believe that its ok to beat men but women are untouchable.
One person does not like my comment. Yet, as in the spirit of this article, the little chicken-shit won’t engage in debate.
“One person does not like my comment. Yet, as in the spirit of this article, the little chicken-shit won’t engage in debate.”
LMAO I was JUST thinking that as I was looking at the little red thumbs popping up! Thinking “well these downvotes sure prove this article wrong” **sarcasm**
Guys, guys, guys.
The lead article on In Mala Fide right now links to a black feminist’s blog who claims Slut Walks are ‘discriminatory’ because there is not enough racial diversity …
And so black women should organise ‘Ho Strolls’.
HO STROLLS. Isn’t that the funniest thing you ever heard? LOL!
“Ho Strolls”?
I just fell off my chair, laughing.
OMG somebody please write an article on “Ho Strolls”
lol lol lol
Snark and Izzey,
I went to downtown Chicago today to witness the Slut Walk here. And a funnier sight I’ve never seen. But here’s the best part…. there were whites, blacks, hispanics and asian all represented there (there very well could have been others). I’m sending pictures to paul in the hopes that he will post them up here.
This week at my workplace, I called out a co-worker who was helping a ‘precious snowflake’ do her job, while males with less work experience had to struggle alone.
I called him out for being sexist – that if he truly believed in equality of the sexes, he wouldn’t aid this woman, or would at least distributed his assistance equally.
A white knight mangina argued against this, but couldn’t come up with anything substantial except ad hominem attacks, to which I told him to “F off”, which ended the matter conclusively.
There’s some other common feminist rhetoric that goes along with this.
1. Feminism as emotional chimera / shapeshifter – Feminism has hundreds of different definitions, which shift depending on the mood of the feminist in question and whatever is perceived as the best way to falsely claim moral high ground. Several Feminists have conceded this point to me and admit it is a problem.
2. NAFALT/No True Scotsman – Every Feminist who says or does evil things = “Not a real Feminist.” Regardless of how many pieces of evidence one offers to prove they are (were), in fact, a Feminist. Related is the characteristic of obfuscating negative results of Feminism as “not Feminism.”
3. Excusing Feminist Evil as a “Wave” – Among the most hateful rhetoric and hurtful actions of Feminism came in what they call “2nd Wave” Feminism. Feminists who claim to be “good” label toxic Feminism as “2nd Wave” Feminism and not part of the ideology anymore. The problems with that argument are that 1- The ideas of 2nd wave Feminists are still well-loved in the movement 2- Many Feminists today still subscribe to the “2nd Wave” perspective. And on the face of it, the argument is just laughable. Let’s say one country’s army is invading another country in waves. Does the invasion get better or more positive in the Third and Fourth Waves? Should we forget about the First and Second Waves?
4. Feminists who don’t actually know anything about Feminism – I’m sure we’ve all come across starry-eyed females who “believe REALLY passionately in Feminism” but are unaware of basic facts or history. One experience in particular comes to mind for me. I was chatting with a “passionate Feminist” on OkCupid. In the course of our debate, she showed she didn’t know there was ever such a thing as an Equal Rights Amendment. And after I explained what the Equal Rights Amendment was, she accused me of misogyny for stating the fact that women opposed the Equal Rights Amendment. So of course I sent her proof via wikipedia, and she blocked my account.
Manuel, I just loved reading this article.
But this one little line–
And in that, I am not alone.
Is what did it for me.
Izzey
Here is a good example of feminist thinking (it’s supposed to be satire):
http://www.viceland.com/blogs/en/2011/06/03/girl-news-why-girls-hate-each-other/
Feminists are not really interested in helping other women and they certainly aren’t interested in helping men.
“The arguments of MRAs are met with accusations, shaming language, insults, threats, blackmail, violence, censure, censorship, cooked up criminal charges, vandalism, imprisonment and other calumny.”
Where? when? On the streets our arguments are usually met with many honks in support of what we say. If you’re not getting a good response, take more people and carry bigger signs.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/FatherlessDayCollage1b.jpg[/img]
And hopefully when you document it you won’t have to paste together several small groups in a pic to make it look bigger.
Seriously, I really laud this type of effort, but I have witnessed exactly what Dexter is talking about and have had it happening to me for years.
Where? When? Everywhere. Right now.
“…hopefully when you document it you won’t have to paste together several small groups in a pic to make it look bigger.”
No, no, but if I were to do something like that I’d start with a photo of a full stadium crowd – something much, much bigger than shown.
Here’s most of the group we had that day. People came and left over the course of the protest so we had a few more than in the photo.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/FahterlessDay06-13-08c.jpg[/img]
Like I said, it is great stuff, but if you are really questioning where the negative reactions are to advocacy for men, then I am at a total loss of what to say to you.
“…but if you are really questioning where the negative reactions are to advocacy for men, then I am at a total loss of what to say to you.”
Huh? Say what? What are you saying? I’m not sure I understand and I have read the article.
The negative reactions to men’s advocacy are located in: government (all levels), education (all levels), the Internet, churches, synagogues, other social institutions (all levels), etc.
Here’s the truck sign (below) we drove by an international women’s day rally being held at “The Federal Building.” One protester’s (woman’s) reaction pretty much sums it up. She held up her middle finger and yelled something.
It’s obvious gender feminists are completely closed minded and bigoted, wanting to exclude men’s voices from any discussion of issues they opine about. NCFMLA fliers were left under the wiper arms, “when truck sign protesting.” (photo below)
Men need louder voices and more of them, AND bigger AND more protest signs, IMO. In addition to garbage thrown in the truck bed, twisted wiper blades, spit, etc. here are other reactions to the MRA message (photos below):
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/PB070005a.jpg[/img]
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/PA310004.JPG[/img]
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/BecauseOfYourIgnorancePeopleSuffer1-1_2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/PA300004a.jpg[/img]
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/PB060007a.jpg[/img]
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/PB050015a.jpg[/img]
Ray,
Perhaps a miscommunication.
To wit you replied to this part of the article:
The arguments of MRAs are met with accusations, shaming language, insults, threats, blackmail, violence, censure, censorship, cooked up criminal charges, vandalism, imprisonment and other calumny.”
with the following:
Where? when? On the streets our arguments are usually met with many honks in support of what we say. If you’re not getting a good response, take more people and carry bigger signs.
Now, forgive me if I misunderstood, but that pretty plainly looked to me to be responding to the article in dissent of the point, even pointing to the positive responses you get with “honks in support”
Pleas read what you posted through again and see if you cannot see why I read it the way I did.
Thanks.
Okay, I’ve seen both enthusiastic in support and enthusiastic in opposition. I remember one guy seeing “FEMINIST LIES MAKE BAD LAWS” as we both came to a stop at a 4-way stop intersection. He started honking his horn, then rolled down his window and shouted, “Yea! Hell yes!” I smiled and waved and drove on. Another time with that sign, I saw a woman in the passenger seat of a Mercedes shake her head “no,” and look really irate and agitated. She started to roll down her window, but the light turned green. I made eye contact with the man driving and he smiled a big amused smile as I drove on. Another woman was absolutely beside herself when she saw, “Domestic Violence Law Rewards Violent Women,” and was really pointing and being obnoxious. I smiled and thought, “Choke on it, fool.”
It really helps to have like minded buddies with you when protesting, but doing it alone is sometimes the only option.
“One protester’s (woman’s) reaction pretty much sums it up. She held up her middle finger and yelled something.”
This all tells me that you made an impact and you pissed off these women. They saw you and your message and you irritated them! You may not realize the massive impact you actually made!
In the future make sure you have video cameras running the whole time. It would be nice to have a woman on film giving you the finger and what ever they say to shame them on the net.
Some of these women, I seen it on video, have called the cops and attempted to tell the police the guy assaulted them. I have lost the video and wish I knew where to find it as this guy single handedly with video running crashed and busted on a feminists/women’s right rally. It was amazing to see this guy and the unruly reaction of the women.
Keep up the good work Ray. It takes balls to do what you did. Let me know the next time you plan to do a rally and I will see what I can do to help you promote it.
I have been involved in countless rallies. One of them stopped the busiest intersection in Canada at Yonge and Dundas as Indians drummed in protest against CAS/CPS. That made big news.
On May 12 a hand full of us protested in front of the Bracebridge Courthouse where Chad Wells was wrongfully arrested by two OPP cops who were ordered by court officials to get him. (They now regret making that mistake!)
Our actions there had a profound impact on the Courthouse where every person in there knew of our presence including judges during court proceedings as CAS applications and motions were being heard. Here is a short video I did with one of our senior advocates Vernon Beck of CCW (Canada Court Watch) who has been doing this for nearly 20 years! Notice the arrogance and ignorance of that high school young man who is so badly misinformed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmfar8fRmrY
The effect of our presence, the false arrest and my investigative work talking with the court staff, the police and asking many hard questions from the assistant to the Crown Attorneys including making her give me all their names and contact information was enough pressure to make them release court transcripts of the wrongfully convicted man who sat in prison unable to get bail pending appeal without the court transcripts. That is the courthouse where he was tried, convicted and sentenced to 10 years in prison for a sexual crime he did not commit!
NEVER, underestimate the power of and effect of a hand full of people who dare to stand their ground as those in that photo. I commend the whole lot of them for their courage to publicly make a stand.
Some tips about protests.
1. Inform the local and MSM about the event with a press release at least two weeks ahead, remind them a week before and again the day before the event. Find a journalist who is sympathetic to your cause. Invite the media at least a half hour into your event to ensure they capture the majority of the protesters as some can’t stay for the entire length of the protest.
2. Make posters to place throughout town where you will hold your rally inviting the public to attend. Don’t forget to include all the schools and government buildings
3. Have flyers printed, both sides, to hand out to people during the protest. Print 1,000 if you are in a busy area, they will go fast.
4. Signs should be no more than about 5 words and letters about 4″ high. Large sentences will not be read as people rush by. Small print can’t be seen and won’t be read. Print on both sides of the signs.
5. Use a megaphone to be heard better.
6. Avoid profanity in public. It will take away from credibility and it will offend those who have young children within ear shot.
7. Inform your local police department of what you are planning on doing and give them a contact person with a cell phone they can reach if need be. Tell the police it will be a peaceful protest and keep it so. You want the cops on your side.
8. Have some of the people collect petitions for your cause.
9. Bring with you a garbage bag and collect all garbage when you are done to leave with everything nice and clean. People will not take much notice of that, but they sure will remember you leaving a mess which will leave a negative impression.
Rallies and protests DO work! In time they may even fill a stadium!
The high school boy used the classic argument of, “Do you have a wife and daughters?” and, “Wouldn’t you want to see a man who sexually assaulted one of them behind bars?” This is incredibly illogical, mischaracterizes the point of the MRM altogether, and is a classic arguing tactic used to stir up the emotions of the opponent in hopes that histrionic feelings will trump clear, logical reasoning. When people cannot defeat an argument with logic, they will often mischaracterize the other person’s point and attack that. The same mentality has a stronghold here in the states and is reinforced in our high schools as well.
The girl who pointed out that, “anyone can put anything on Google” is another example of today’s young women not being able to see past their sex. Speaking up for the rights of men is still seen as hate speech, no matter how logical our points are. Trashing men’s rights in favor of ever more rights for women is seen as fair, balanced, and reasonable. This is due to the feminist lies such as the “one in four college girls are raped or sexually assaulted” (I hear this one every day on the radio at this college town). As long as feminists can keep these lies alive and well, people will continually support radical feminist notions, unbeknownst to themselves.
It is true that information on the points of the MRM can be found on Google searches and “anyone can put anything on Google” as this 17 year old idiot points out. This is another arguing tactic. Making a true statement such as this as a counter argument is quite effective because it is a true statement. However, it is TRUE for BOTH sides of the argument and the “facts” she believes about the wage gap, the one in four lie about women being sexually assaulted in college, and other feminist lies can ALSO be found on Google searches and, likewise, “anyone can put anything on Google”. So what is her point? I think the point is that she cannot think rationally and objectively.
The feminist propaganda is deep, very deep. Some of it targets children in grade school as early as kindergarten, while others are infected by single mothers who are raising most of our children, boys and girls.
You make excellent points Ben. Most people we talk to listen much better than the ignorant and misguided young adults in that video.
He will be the kind of guy that will call us for help from prison after being falsely accused of rape or sexual assault by his girlfriend or spouse.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.
Thats FANTASTIC thatt here were that many men who put aside “professional” sports and car races long enough to actually **DO** something like that!!!
Still beating that dead horse?
Yes, we get it you don’t like Nascar or other sports.
I happen to enjoy hunting and fishing.
Are you implying that having other interests besides the MRM somehow make one less of an MRA?
I for one could not continue if I did not take some me time away from the struggle. I would burn out.
So, how about trying to contribute something original beyond, “Televison, sports, and racing are bad”?
Your essay reminds me of this song by “Dean” of “Dean and the Weenies”, c.1988. The eponymous “Dean” – the lead singer who died recently at age 40-something – was an open homosexual, and regardless of my hostility to TODAY’s “gay rights” movement, nonetheless I have a lot of respect for this guy, Dean, may God rest his soul in whatever circles of Paradise or Pugatory he might reside. (I do NOT believe he is in Hell, he was too honest to go to Hell!)
Here ya go, please ENJOY “Dean” performing “F— You!” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnMtvuvM_i0
I had started to educate my buddies on the fraud of feminism a couple years ago, and until a few days ago I thought my words simply went in one ear and out the other. However, I recently saw them arguing with a female acquaintance over the issue and swatting down every last one of her pro-feminist talking points with a torrential stream of logic and facts straight out of the manosphere. By the end of it, she she started to back down from her support of feminist dogma.
I’m beginning to see more and more average joes not only taking issue with feminism, but also armed with arguments needed to take it down.
I too, will keep fighting for justice. I too, will keep spreading the MRA message. One person at a time we are making progress. Bit by bit, we will slay this unholy beast known as feminism.
“I’m beginning to see more and more average joes not only taking issue with feminism, but also armed with arguments needed to take it down. ”
People often ask what the value is in this ‘useless complaining’ stuff we do. They also deride us for wasting our time writing, instead of getting out and protesting…
My Youtube videos have spoken to FAR more people than I could hope to in real life. Ditto my articles.
Then I hear stuff like this, and it makes it all worthwhile. Thank you for this, it’s great to hear our message is taking hold.
Every time we make a stance and spread the word in a truthful manner it becomes rhetoric that will be spoken by others. I say this often that the worst thing we can do is remain silent and suffer silently. If we say nothing, nobody will hear that something is wrong.
The part that pleases me the most is I have followers of women who are speaking out against feminism. Most don’t understand me in the beginning but most do realize what I am saying is true. One of these women only understood me after she watched numerous YouTube videos by the Happyisogynist.
Another woman who now uses words such as “feminazi” and “mangina” stopped in Kitchener as a bunch of female students were advocating for the rights of women with signs and collecting petitions for more government funding and more women’s rights. Not realizing one of her windows was open she voiced her opinion and called them a bunch of f****ing feminazis. She was heard and a battle of words ensued. She parked her car walked over to them and ripped strips off of them about how horrible feminism is. One of them said, “But you are a woman?” She replied, “Well if this is what women stand for then I am not a woman!”
My friend was so annoyed she walked into the bank and the law office they were set up in front of. she told them what they were doing and both establishements realized they were duped as the women told them they were doing a school project which was a lie. Both businesses made the women leave. LOL
Btw, this was the woman who’s fiancée was just released from prison on bail pending appeal. He was maliciously prosecuted, convicted and sentenced to 10 years in prison for allegedly raping his own daughter which simply never happened.
So even women are turning against feminism. That part pleases me the most in my activism. Five years ago when I would write about how evil feminism is I too would be called, a troll, misogynist, gay, paedophile, rapist, bitter, cave man, vindictive, bitter, never been with a woman, need to get laid and on and on.
I no longer get attacked as often as before. That tells me a lot. It tells me that what we are doing is working!
IMO it’s the lack of media coverage on men’s issues that enables a lot of the shaming and emotional attacks. The TV hasn’t told people it’s okay to talk about men’s rights yet.
To the herd, men’s rights are still strange and unfamiliar to comprehend. A lot of “neutral” people who may be open to our side of the issue aren’t going to think about it until it’s “safe” to do so.
Good comment. I agree. Most men will not speak of things that will potentially cause them to lose female approval, especially men in feminist marriages and relationships where such talks would destroy their relationships. When a man speaks up for men’s rights in today’s femifascist society, he will be immediately ostracized and shamed by most women (or even by other men) before his argument is ever even heard. It doesn’t matter what he is saying, or the validity or logic of his points. As long as he is talking about men’s rights, he is automatically evil and to be controlled by cutting off his sexual access to females. It takes courage to speak up for the rights of men. It does not take any courage at all whatsoever to make sexist comments favoring women and trashing the rights of men. I fact, the latter will be applauded by most.
Could you imagine a scenario where men outlived women by 7 years but colleges did not have breast cancer campaigns but, rather, testicular cancer campaigns with blue ribbons everywhere and boys asking girls for donations while not only ignoring the fact that men outlived women by 7 years but also DENYING it and keeping it a secret? Girls in this reversed situation who merely mentioned that men outlived women by 7 years and that perhaps we should begin to help both men and women, not just men, were called misandrists who hated men and were publically humiliated in the same way that men are for speaking up for men’s rights. Also, suppose men were 60% of college enrollment and such college men’s groups completely ignored this and continually demanded that ever more affirmative action for men was needed.
Yep, TV says it’s ok to subjugate the males, so that makes it okay. “We hear TV and obeeeeeyyyyyy!”
I have learned some time ago that I can speak my mind if I so choose. I always tend to do so respectfully. Those who don’t like what I have to say, especially when I just state a fact, such as that women are as violent as men in intimate relationship, can take a hike.
I am confident enough to accept that not everyone will like what I have to say. Personally, I would rather have a few genuine friends than to have many by false pretense by accommodating what ever the current trend may be. This is not for me.
Outstanding.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/dr._mario.jpg[/img]
I dunno if you can call feminism “self-centered” when its entire motivation is based on an emotional reaction to another group of people (men).
Seems to me Feminists are doing a whole lot of complaining about others, demanding payment from others, advocating unequal laws to the detriment of others, generally fixating on the others to the point of dependance — and not a whole lot of living their lives independently.
The most twisted thing is that it’s not in any woman’s interest to be a feminist. So it’s not really self-centered, in the literal meaning of that word. In fact it’s mostly (rage + moral righteousness directed at) men centered.
“Self”-centered women who want earn a genuine self-esteem by becoming the kind of person who gets things done and enjoys her life, should steer clear of feminism.
“I recognize that the opponents of the men’s rights movement are organized,”
As organized as they are, it isn’t due to any great ability. Feminist screeching is as innate as wailing is to a baby. It’s not the baby’s brilliance that makes a noise that drives its parents to distraction, and brings it urgent attention – it’s simply instinct, and the fact that it works.
This is why debating feminists never changes their mind – they are not motivated by logic, so appeals to logic will have no effect. The only way to short-circuit their noise is for it to no longer work. That requires a change in us, not them.
We’ll have ‘the win’ cinched the day we can point to their arguments in a public forum, smirk, and say “And these are the people you want dictating policy???”
Yes, the whole point of feminism is to gain benefit and resources from men by being seen as victims. They have ramped up the victim status and continue to harp on and on about every pissy little issue……..because it works. What we have to do is make it a disadvantage to carry on like this, and behave this way. That means giving as many white knights and manginas bloody noses as possible. Lets see how many white knights and manginas there are in congress when the total economic meltdown comes and the full blown riots in the streets are happening and they are still trying to keep all the programs going that transfer wealth from men to women. Lets see how many manginas in congress have the balls to talk up the idea of a man tax to pay for more bullshit to combat violence against women when the angry hordes are coming for them.
How are they going to keep promoting the domestic violence bullshit when statistics finally reveal that the vast majority of women don’t even live with a man, or even have a boyfriend. What will they turn to when the majority of women are forced to share places with other women, because most men wont live with them, and most dv calls to 911 is for woman on woman violence.
At the current rate of government deficit spending in the US, one third of all tax revenue will be going to keep up min payments on the government debt by the end of Obama’s first term. The other two thirds will have to pay for all government activity. They can’t even pay for that with 100% of the taxes, and are borrowing trillions every year. The only answer to the problem is for government to shrink, and axe all non essential programs. j The pathetic cuts in spending that happened recently only reduced the amount of debt they are adding each year….down from 2 trillion to 1.4 trillion or something. So the government spends everything it gets, plus 1.4 trillion per year. If interest on it’s current debt increases by 2%, that alone will destroy the USA. The bailout money is running out, and the economy is going to collapse in the near future worse then in 2008. If they go the bailout route again (borrowing more trillions) it will be the final nail in the coffin of the US. Feminism is very close to losing it’s financing, one way or the other. Lets see how well their “organised” organisation goes when they have to do like we do, and finance themselves, mostly with no jobs to do it. LOL
Taking this entire article into perspective:
I am here to fuck your shit up.
That HAS to be one of the best lines EVER penned in any article written in the history of mankind.
And NO,
I won’t shut up either You hairy legged man hating bitches.
“Lets see how many white knights and manginas there are in congress when the total economic meltdown comes and the full blown riots in the streets are happening and they are still trying to keep all the programs going that transfer wealth from men to women.”
Even the tea party doesn’t want to deal with the truth about female entitlements and pork. It’s not on their agenda even after you tell them to Google, “Phyllis Schlafly feminist pork.” And when you show up at a tea party rally with a sign that says, “End Feminist Pork,” a higher up in the local Republican party only lets you stay if you stand at the edge of their gathering. Everyone should have a sign, a bumper sticker, a button that says, “End Feminist Pork,” IMO. Make your own.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/P4150031.JPG[/img]
They know how to count votes, and at the present time there’s more votes to be had by kowtowing to women than almost any other political position.
Ah yes. The old, “You must be gay,” taunt that is meant to shame and humiliate any man who stands up for himself. Watching ranting fems self-implode and stumble Keystone Cop-style while back-peddling when I reply that, “Yes. Actually I am gay”, is deeply satisfying. Not to mention the perfect starting point for ripping them a new one regarding their ‘hate speech’. Love it.
The occasional right-wing Christian popping up to declare that I’m on the highway to hell (Hi James Cook!!) is actually a novelty for me. Ask any gay man which group voices the most frequent and virulent gay-bashing sentiments and we will all tell you it is leftist, feminist women. They voice this kind of manipulative shaming crap with such frequency, that I concluded many years ago that feminists hate my gay guts as much as they despise straight men. Feminists sure know how to alienate people.
The shit-stirring finese of the Manuel Dexters of this world are wreaking havoc in feminazis’ smugly snug little reich. They are getting increasingly nervous because they realise that men, as a group, won’t need to articulate counter-arguments to feminist screeds. A massive, collective “Fuck You” of disatisfaction is all it will take to crumble their edifice of entitlement – and they know it. It’s already happening, and all of the fag-baiting in the world isn’t going to stop it.
Straight men labelled ‘gay’ by feminists should also concede to being gay and then ask them to explain precisely what is wrong with that.
One of my friends on Twitter is married and has children, but his profile pic is shirtless and wearing a cowboy hat. He’s not an MRA per se, but he’s a libertarian and likes to start political debates with people. Several times I’ve seen women shame him as a “gay cowboy” when they can’t argue his points. He always responds with “Looks like you have a problem with gays” “What’s the deal with your homophobia” and retweets their insult to everyone.
It’s endlessly entertaining to see supposedly tolerant Leftist women expressing homophobia within two minutes of talking with someone.
Tolerance today is a one-way street. It’s ok to be intolerant as long as you are being intolerant to the straight men and the majority. Feminists don’t understand that there is a difference between being intolerant and simply disagreeing. The notions of “will not tolerate” and “do not agree with” are not the same thing. When they attack everyone who has an opinion inconsistent with their hateful ideology by calling them intolerant bigots, they are the ones being intolerant bigots. MRAs understand this but most people do not.
From now on, whenever accused of being gay in an attempt to silence or shame me, I will become officially and publicly gay.
To my understanding the counter argument is:
Of course there’s a wage gap and of course there’s a rape culture and no, your not getting laid tonight.
Totally epic! If a woman said it, it must be true. Because those men who simply ask where she gets her facts are not getting laid, right? And if they can’t get laid then what the fuck do they know?
@Manuel
Gobsmacking piece.
“This all tells me that you made an impact and you pissed off these women.”
I drove by their protest several times honking, and did I mention is was March 8th, International Woman’s Day? I was smiling large and when not honking, I waved. I enjoyed it and will always treasure the memory of that day. I’ve had about 70 variations of truck signs on the streets of L.A. over the years, but haven’t done much of that in over a year.
College classes take up a lot of my time, but their media classes: Journalism, Broadcasting, Media Arts, Web Design, Photoshop, Screenwriting, etc. I hope to eventually do MRA media. Here’s my one week old web site, http://www.manamongoaks.com It’s basic, but a start. It still needs a lot of work.
When my MRA activism stops being fun and interesting, I try to find a new, fun type of MRA activism. It’s really important to have some fun and learn something with this stuff, IMO. Otherwise, burnout is more of a problem.
Good work Manual.
From what you’ve written it could hardly be said that feminist females are anywhere close to being the intellectual equals of men or of your revealing outspokenness. Their strength, if it could be called that, appears hyperbolic, sensate and emotive, thereby deceptive in nature.
Considering feminism around the Western world has had public money, billions of dollars/pounds, mostly off the backs off men’s labour, injected into its coffers it is more than just odd that live open public debates on something that has cost the world so much has been absent for so long. Your brief essay above, and the work by others on this site, inches us closer and ever so closer to public discussion on men’s issues and the fraudulence of feminism.
We just need a little more time for other men to start doing their homework after they get cleaned out through divorce court. Then doors will open so wide that they’ll be blown off their hinges.
Got to start getting proactive..letting the courts, politicians know, that we know how they are walking all over the rights of men in society, and thereby breaching the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the Criminal Code..we are supposed to be under the Rule of Law, which means equal treatment for everyone under the law..and yes all courts, Divorce, criminal, and civil
This matches my experiences where even plugging basic facts and research results in visceral reactions from women and sometimes men. The bright side is that all that hatred merely exposes them and strengthens your own argument.
I think PC culture is seriously cracking, especially among younger people.
Perfect.
Do not react to their attacks.
Encourage them, politely if you can. Never waivering from your facts.
They are their own worst enemy.
“Where is the counter argument?”
That’s a very good question.
To counter it validates it as a potentially valid argument.
So they dismiss it, hoping no one will notice.
It’s all Rules for Radicals, Saul Alinsky stuff.
The counter-establishment of the 60′s has become the new establishment.
But they’re aging and falling behind on the times.
While they’re busy watching “American Idol”, MRA’s are exploding the narrative into a mythological haze on the internet. They’re losing control of their vision.
Hey guys you can rant and rave on here all you want..we have to get proactive…first the courts..divorce and criminal courts..study up on the law (it’s not difficult), then start a business letter writing campaign to them, the courts, the prosecutors and the so called defence lawyers, and let them know how they are in violation of the criminal codes of the various countries, as well as the Constitutional Rights guarantees..when they treat women with preferential treatment over men..(like if a woman says it it must be gospel) Yeah right!..But this would be a good starting point let them know we are wise to their corruption, and who pulls their strings…from there we move on to the politicians, and get those weak kneed scum to start ensuring the laws of the land prevail equally…
Thank goodness you’re here to show us the way
Better doing something, than sitting around whining and complaining about it…that gets us nowhere..but that seems to be the norm!
“gets us nowhere”? seriously? you have apparently not been paying attention – there is now a funded conference being staged by feminists attempting to colonize and subvert the MRM -you know, these sad sacks just “sitting around whining and complaining”. The feminist establishment is sharply aware of us, and is sufficiently threatened that they are attempting to impersonate us.
There is also considerably more going on than just “sitting around whining and complaining” – but maybe you actually don’t know that, maybe you just stumbled in here and have no idea, and your blathering is founded on innocence. Or, maybe you’re yet another fool trying to shame men into silence.
I know what Ive been doing, cornergas, I know what I’ll continue doing – besides posting woefully uninformed criticisms of the activities of MRAs, what are YOU doing.
To Manuel and cornergas
– Disagree with the following but it won’t stop me from believing otherwise:
Common men’s issues will eventually be heard by a much broader audience. Larger than the readership that Paul has manged to acquire (I just know it – how does one prove the future to others? There’s no collected evidence for what may occur tomorrow or twelve years from now).
And common men’s issues will catch the ear of the public because of the likes of Manuel Dexter with his writings found in this site AND the silent work behind the scenes that cornergas is and has been doing.
For the context of the last few writer exchanges above both approaches and personages are indespensible to the cause for men’s issues.
There are few if any central locales for the discussing of concerns of the common man, so on-line forum writings are one way at keeping the knowledgable and the unfamiliar interested and informed. The word on the existance of ‘MRAs’ has got to get out somehow and web-logs (blogs) or web-sites (such as this one, for ex.) can provide for an on-line written education or opinion forum. It’s good to know and articulate issues before going public.
Getting into the public sphere appears to be a stage of where the man of action already knows or has experienced a sampling of the issues. We need more of these such people. It should not just be the one man (of action) taking the bullet for everyone else.
But, more time appears to be required before others get involved in either writing or getting in the face of public officials or other areas beneficial to the cause of the common man.
I’m a little hesitant at writing this for the sake, modesty and anonymity of cornergas. I know this man (he actually wrote in on this site!) and the work that he has done in the public sphere is remarkably impressive. He sets himself into forward active motion. That’s where he is coming from.
All you silent readers of men’s blogs and web-sites: things are going to change. They always do. Things are about to change over due time and not so much because nothing ever stays the same but more so because you are going to be effected by what you see and read here (or elsewhere). Word is going to get around ever moreso than before. There are pro-male writers and do-ers voluntarily working on behalf of concerns the contemporary common man has scant inkling of. Your involvement, passive of otherwise, will ripple over to the next man.
Now, let’s get on with it all.
>”there is now a funded conference being staged by feminists attempting to colonize and subvert the MRM -you know, these sad sacks just ‘sitting around whining and complaining.’ The feminist establishment is sharply aware of us, and is sufficiently threatened that they are attempting to impersonate us.’ ”
Interesting to see men still downplaying the importance of, and impact of, the Men’s Rights Movement.
For decades clueless boyos pooh-poohed their own inactivism…and feminism’s activism. They failed to see that doing nothing, letting the “little ladies” run amok had untoward consequences. Even as feminists began imprisoning men in the all-male club of “Non-custodial Dost-divorce Bill-payers,” most guys chose to avoid action (save to view it on sports field).
The tragedy, of course, was that such men not only lost their families, they got stuck with huge bills, too. Guys who wouldn’t give $10 annually to the MRM ended up shelling out $10K just to RETAIN a lawyer… who’d usually tell the shlub to bite-the-bullet and give his aided-by-the-feminist-establishment wife all she wanted.
Fathers who worked shitty jobs so they could buy Junior a bike and read to him at night now “visited” that same child via phone twice a month…if he was lucky.
Men who’d stormed enemy pillboxes in wars to protect “freedom” now did nothing as feminists made a mockery of everything males had sacrificed for.
Worse, blinded-by-poon male saps often attacked the MRM as a bunch of angry, whiny, wussy, female-hating malcontents. That is, they attacked the very forces who’d arrived to save their bacon!
So here we are today, trying to chip away at cement fortifications feminists poured 40 years ago. Those fortresses are nearly impregnable now, having had decades to harden and multiply. Plus they are often “manned” by white-knights, manginas, and Candidolts (men who believe feminists make ours the best of all possible worlds).
Whenever some MRAs DO start fighting back, overtly or via black ops, out come uninformed males to snipe at them.
Odd, no? Guys can unite to form entire civilizations (laws, buildings, sewage systems, factories, highways, medicine, schools, etc.) but can’t unite to fight a movement (feminism) hellbent on destroying manhood itself while making individual men miserable.
Thank gawd, then, for AV4M! We need such a place to rally, support each other, and create new strategies/tactics. We don’t have to pull punches here or “understand” feminism in the sense of constantly having to find SOMETHING good in it. Here socialized men can begin to critique feminism and ultimately realize they can say No to real women in real life without dying or having the world end.
Having commented on (and been blocked-banned-censored) on numerous feminist sites (ones claiming to welcome “diverse, differing, inclusive views”!), I know it’s sometimes good to spar with opponents. It CAN sharpen skills and reveal enemy weaknesses. But you have to have your own “corner, too.” A “home” to come back to where wounds are tended and sound, actionable advice given.
And at some point, you need to engage the REAL enemy. Otherwise you waste skills and wear down your fighting spirit.
Sparring on fembot websites is, at best, educational and preparatory. Stay there too long, however, and they will unman and dispirit you. Make you want to retreat. Convince you that all resistance is futile.
Men are socialized to stuff feelings. The MRM deprograms that socialization. It teaches men to begin heeding their feelings again, not quash them. It reminds guys that the sense they had as boys when things weren’t “fair” is gold. That is, that sense of rightness is to be followed.
Too often males are hectored to “man-up” and “stop acting like babies.” Why? Cui bono? Who benefits when we comply?
Babies cry because their needs aren’t being met and they don’t know how else to alert their caregivers. Their needs are real. Babies don’t cry because their stock portfolio is crashing. They cry because they are hungry or cold or wet and if those conditions remain unaddressed too long they will die. So crying is necessary and good.
When older, kids learn to communicate more directly. They may not cry but they will still FEEL the same when important needs aren’t met.
And not all needs are physical. Humans have emotional needs, too. Babies whose caregivers con’t hold them enough die.
A pre-teen boy whose heart is breaking over a girl has unmet needs, too. Mock him, smirk at “puppy love,” and you will not just diminish his soul and life. You will be creating someone who will get even somehow. Males hazed in fraternities tend to haze others in turn. It’s all bullshit and unnecessary.
Those who shame us not to “cry” are trying to con us. They want us to ignore our needs in order to meet THEIRS.
“White knights” are not just played, they are not really selfless. They think they can only meet their needs for love/affection by first pleasing women. They don’t know how to meet their own needs more directly.
They also think that getting emotionally close to other men is “gay.” So they put all their eggs in female baskets, ending up needing women for everything. Such men are not going to do anything that threatens that…like questioning the women’s movement.
Such men need wars or other emergencies to begin trusting other males. That’s a big problem for the MRM: How to reaching men and teach them to trust other men before feminist toxins hit…in the form of divorce notices or sexual harassment allegations or rape charges. THEN it is too late…even though those same guys will now welcome any kind of aid and comfort (even from other males!). Sadly, too often belatedly enlightened men are emotional and economic basketcases, unable to help the MRN. Before feminism touched them personally, they viewed the MRN as silly. Post-trauma, they remain in a stupor, barely able to function.
The “don’t get close to other men” fiat serves feminism well. It keeps straight men apart and prevents gay-straight alliances. Tragic. Can you imagine the leader of Act-up telling Gloria Steinem to fuck herself on national TV?
Many men’s best buddies in the entire world (save their parents) were once other boys. As adults, they were trained to break those bonds and depend only on women for emotional succor. They are still allowed to be with other men, but only in coal mines, trenches, or sports bars. That males might want to hang with other males to discuss books, hear symphonies, ride Harleys, volunteer in soup kitchens, etc. is verboten.
Time to unite and fight, fellas (and ladies who love us)!
John, um, bravisomo!
That’s all and well deserved.
activate fembot-terminator-fu2 NOW !
let’s communicate and beat the shit out of them liars&cheaters, femini$$m-samesex-atheism are destroying the world !
I feel as though i have to question this statement, “Women’s historical oppression – is a lie”
Now i feel confused about this because it is to my knowledge of human history that women have been oppressed in many ways. To such extents that they were pretty much consider property. Something that has been verified and well stated by creditable sources and individuals. Unless what is implied that any unfortunate results were incidental by primary actions of religious fervor, etc. Which still leads to the point that women were oppressed.
That said i don’t agree with the mentality of some women who insist that the descendants should take on reparation by the mistakes of our long gone ancestors.
Any referenced links that would satisfy my doubt of the statement will be much appreciated. Just simply keen to learn and confirm what is being said as I have developed a great deal of interest within the MRM. Overall it truly makes me happy to know that I’m far from alone in my perspective when it comes to the insane hypocrisy of bigoted men and women.
Women’s oppression is bullshit because you have to look at the reality of the times that it supposidly occured in.
The world was not like it is now…no cars….no planes…..no electricity….no mod cons at all. Manual labor.and fucking hard labor at that…..was how the vast majority of men made a living….and dangerous.
There were women who were partaking in this…..few….but they existed….and for those that could cut it…..the option was there. Just as it was there for the women who wanted to go into the very small minority of people who practices proffessions. The fact is…that if things reverted to exactly the way they were back then…..most women alive now…..even radical feminists…..the most self proclaimed strong, independent women…..would opt for lives just like Great Grand Mother…..if faced with the choice of living life as a traditional man of that time…….or a woman of that time.
Being protected against the hardest…most dangerous….dirty….back breaking and soal destroying labor…and being provided for by someone who is doing double his share so you can have the easier life……yes……easier…and safer…and cleaner…….is not oppression……the fact that you can even make that choice…..means you are privleged.
Even now….with air conditioned offices with all the mod cons…..where work consists of pushing buttons…..talking on the phone…..many woman choose not to do that….and to be housewives……how many do you think would choose to be a farm hand….ploughing fields with oxe pulled plough……mining coal with pick and shovel…..spending weeks at a time on fishing boats…..driving cattle hundreds of miles on horse back……not bloody many…..and that is why women didn’t work.
Hello Stu and thank you for your reply
I have to say that i humbly disagree with an aspect of what you have written. The well valid point about men at work during history certainly had me thinking. But the issue that i see is that women in history did not always have the opportunity to emancipate from their parents or husbands wishes.
Admittingly my historical knowledge is largely based upon documentaries. However a fair degree has come from books and reputable sources on the Internet.
That said, throughout the vast history of human society i don’t know how it could be possibly denied that women had their own hardship.
E.g
“In feudal China, women had no say at all as regards their marriage partner, being expected to comply unconditionally with their parents or brothers’ arrangements.”
http://www.chinavoc.com/history/tang/women.htm
Yes men had to work hard and dangerous jobs to support themselves, a family and pay tax. I have a great deal of respect for that. What I’m trying to say is that while women had easier jobs that where mostly at home they ultimately obeyed the wishes of others(not always but in many circumstances in history). Much in the same way a child’s life is easier due to their parents but with less choices.
Some may say that while the man works hard he has the ultimate say. I think many women would probably be happy to live by that. However when her mentality is insistent to live a different life it can feel like a kind of cage.
Some of what you say is true, it was true some of time in some parts of the world, and did not apply to every family in the village, town, county, area etc etc
Even though the information you present, as incredibly incomplete and blinkered as it is – “Admittingly my historical knowledge is largely based upon documentaries. However a fair degree has come from books and reputable sources on the Internet.” – yes you are uneducated.
Speaking of “feudal China” do yo know how big China is? the website you link to into your post speaks about the The Tang Dynasty ( 618 – 907 BC ), well over 1000 years ago!
At the end of the day I think it shows desperation on your behalf to attempt to downplay the challenges man and boys face by mentioning what happened to some of women in China over 1000 years ago.I will also add many have moved on since 907BC.
Life is just not as black and white as your post suggests.
“But the issue that i see is that women in history did not always have the opportunity to emancipate from their parents or husbands wishes. ”
You think the men did?
Deimos, gee your dumb.
I tell you what, try – if your small, childlike, selfish, myopic, mind has the intellectual and moral horsepower – imagine growing up on a farm with the best tech of the day, in the year AD907, in China, no power, no indoor plumbing, dirt roads that only are open some of the time, you feminists need to go study tech history, no science, no drugs, nothing.The better the tech is the more perceived AND real freedom we have.. –
My Dad grew up on a small island in 1940′s Fiji, they had a generator only for a few hours a week.Dirt roads etc.
His father – my Granddad – got a piece of metal caught in his foot it got infected – or something – and my Dad lost his Dad.
I don’t think discrimination of some women and/or men by other women/men is a complete lie but if you try to elevate the suffering of women and minimize of men the suffering, or what ever group, well that is discrimination of the worst kind.
Deimos, you are free to live in the distant past, but don’t expect MRA’s to get into the time machine of Doom with you…
On to the future!
I ask a question with fair utmost humility and your response is to reply with fervent derision as if i have slapped you in the face.
Regardless it is nice to notice that when placed with historical evidence you admit to womens past oppression. Therefore making the following “Women’s historical oppression – is a lie” a lie. But don’t confuse my context under the impression that it is my objective to support feminism and ridicule MRA’s. To state my opinion of feminism is that it’s perverse. But where i want to see a difference here is the willingness to analyze respectable questions without a rabid attack. Something that is all to apparent from feminists.
I’am very familiar with many aspects of history and keenly educate myself despite your opinion of me. Incidentally it was not my intent to minimize the suffering of men. Yes men worked hard, yes men died during work, yes men were forced in circumstances against their own will. But given the context of my question i would rather not jerk off to the work of men. Instead i prefer to respect the achievements of individuals or groups regardless of gender. Rather then tooting my own horn about how great men are when the evidence speaks for itself.
I hardly think it is desperate for me to seek historical evidence of BC periods. As I could have just as easily found AD sources. I will agree that within recent modern times, say 150 years (Pretty short period given our human society timeline), that the oppression of women has all or nearly gone. But then don’t feel offended when such a statement is made that can be so easily falsified.
I agree with most perhaps even all of what MRA’s have to say about feminism. I share your many fundamental opinions. However i have to feel suspicious when false statements are made and questions are replied negatively, intentionally ignored or the refusal to accept evidence.
Do not expect a logically fair game when animosity helps drive your opinion…
You know, somebody on here was talking about staying calm and just replying with the facts. It’s much more effective and powerful.
You should do that. Insulting people who bring up valid points and questions – well, *maybe* that helps you, but it doesn’t help anybody else.
We will never surrender.
One thing I enjoy, is on neutral boards, exposing feminist shaming tactics. It’s hilarious and if there are couple of you doing it, it makes for good times. Whether it be Code Blue, Siver, Yellow or Red, exposing each individual comment for the shaming tactic that it is brings me much joy.
Deimos – You sound young, is that right? Outside of recorded history, anthropology, archeology, etc (and there are many fair-minded men here who, I’m sure, can and would guide you to some excellent books, writings, etc) – I watched the entire socalled 2nd wave feminist movement from its injection into the popular consciousness, in 1970, to the present, in these United States.
What Stu says is worded in semi-passionate language (that’s our Stu), but is absolutely accurate in essence: Women as a demographic did NOT insist on equality with men, until men’s development of civilization/automation had reached a point where much of both men’s and women’s work did not depend on physical strength. THEN you saw the radfems in the uniperversities being listened to and agreed with – by, for the overwhelming mostpart, males in the media and the universities – i.e. by males most of whom were soft-handed, privileged professionals who had never done hard work to speak of, and thus couldn’t relate to oldfashioned Marxism, with its promotion of “the working man”.
*Women* however, now THAT was an issue the uppermiddle class could get its teeth into. The rest is simply a story of the male-female Social Contract going from trade-off, to ripoff – again, thanx to the aforementioned clueless class.
I’m a little suspicious of some of your asides, tho. E.g. you’re not going to “jerk off to men’s work when it is self-evident”. Well it certainly *should* be evident that men built 99.5% of Civilization (which alone allowed Feminism to come into existence): But what MRAs are saying is that western cultures are now engineered to be damned if they will acknowledge such a “self-evident” fact.
Even if you buy, in any part, the Woman-as-n—-of-the-world theory, it’s always struck me as particularly stupid that feminists, in their quest to exact “vengeance” on my generation of men and back, are making absolutely sure that their *sons* grow up in a world where they will be neurotic, derelict, impoverished, uneducated stunted failures. And that’s just for openers.
(Hey you stupid broads – it’s *me* and your grandfathers you want, over here! Come and get me, – and get away from that boy’s privates.)
Hello JinnBottle
Yes your presumption of my age is correct as I’am 23. It is rather interesting to me how easy it is to persuade people of my age in academic periods of life. I specifically notice more self righteous, naive and gullibility among women, which doesn’t surprise me when very few care to learn the depth of many subjects. Whether it be technical or political i think many would agree with me today and in the past. Yet somehow people in positions to grant greater power to feminism figured the credentials of those advocating it and others piously supporting it felt satisfied by this.
That said i want to make it clear i consider myself to be an exception to many people of my age. Chiefly because I tend to be skeptical and fervently study board topics. Incidentally astronomy, physics and technology is where i have focused much of my time. So i will gladly yield to the fact my knowledge of certain social and political endeavors are limited, for now.
What i have been finding most interesting these days is that i have discovered many women in jobs that were, apparently said by feminists, an exclusive male domain. Watching lots of aviation documentaries i would see lots of different footage of women in engineering departments drawing up schematics (Seems to me more obvious in Russia). Footage filmed in and out of the world war periods too. Reading Michael Collins (astronaut) autobiography i would learn that two women with glue pots were responsible in the assisted work for Gemini space suits. And this is only to name only two.
Seems to me as i prod further the more ridiculous and perverse feminism becomes.
Feminist’s greatest enemy is the truth. (their 2nd greatest enemy is masculinity, which they are envious of because objective nature didn’t make them dominant or male). They simply can’t stand up to the truth. They do not need to because all they (females) have to do is exaggerate, bring pity onto themselves, and lie, then presto, there is a sucker by her side to defend her even if he looks ridiculous doing so. Eventually he will have “had” written on his forehead but he is too weak and feminized to know what it really means.
The fact that they never counter-argue is indicative of them knowing they are in arrears, or that they live their entire lives in oblivion—not really knowing how wrong they are.
Don’t expect much real substance from them. Since they have vaginas, (male feminist traitors might as well have vaginas too), and since weakened “men” who have lost their real-man bearings over women, self-centered women will get what they want.
That is the story of feminism. Deep down most feminists know it too but don’t care…because they know they have suckered so-called “men’ into helping them.
There is not one thing that female feminists have done on their own without the aid of ditzy males helping them—-NOT ONE! Heck, even their declaration of sentiments (1840′s) was a near plagiarism of the Constitution.
There are too many “men” who think that having manhood relies on them giving women whatever they want. That too is the story of feminism’s gains. They are not winning because they are right!
So, we will keep fighting. We will never shut up. We have the truth on our side. We may not be winning (yet) but we at least aren’t liars.
You know what I find most useful about sites like this? Useful facts, viewpoints, and opinions that help me make sense of the gender wars.
People venting out hatred – I just cringe when I read some of that crap. It sounds exactly like some of the feminists you all hate, only the positions are reversed. They love that, because then they can call us all misogynists, point to that venom, and people – the ones you maybe wanted to influence – believe them. Our own hatred works against us.
Do you think, when they talk and write about MRM, that they’re quoting the most calm, most reasonable and believable posts? They’re pointing to the obvious frothing-at-the-mouth misogyny, and using it to characterize everybody who disagrees with them. So, when you spew that crap, you help them. You come off as one more crazy-ass guy, ready to abuse women.
Gee, I have to wonder if some of that hatred is PUT here by some feminists, as a tactic. If not, then some of us are doing their work for them.
I am quite sure you have heard this a million times and do not agree with it, but what you describe is actually misandry, and not feminism as the dictionary defines it. And by that definbition at least, feminism is about gender equality (I agree, not the best name for that, but that IS what the definition says). Now, in hopes that this hasn’t infuriated you too much, I will carry on to your other arguments.
1. 1 in 4 women is raped, sexually assaulted, battered or abused – is a lie [1]
I am ambivalent towards this. I can not present a proper argument or number, just experience, so I do not expect anyone to regard it as proof. In my country, this number is around 1 in 10, from what I know and from what I, myself, experienced. It maybe more of less in other countries.
2. The wage gap – is a lie [2][3]
I agree. This has never happened to me and this is not exactly the most revolutionary country in the world. The equality of chances is a slightly different subject but I won’t go into that for now.
3. Women’s historical oppression – is a lie
I am not sure in what respect you do not consider women to have been oppressed in the past. I consider being denied an education, the right to vote, the right to inherit and the right to ownership quite oppressive, and there’s plenty of proof that this was the state of things until a while ago – I can present proof if needed. I have encountered this opinion in anti-feminsts a lot. Just because some women were pampered and because chivalry existed, you cannot say that oppression was a lie. Even the most pampered women had as little rights as the low-born. Most were nothing more than beloved and decorative pets.
4. Rape culture – is a lie[4][5]
While I do agree that it’s a very strong expression and haven’t really encountered it myself, I do hear a lot of “well, it’s her fault, wearing them tight jeans”. So let’s say that I don’t agree on it being a rape culture, but more of a culture that likes to blame the victims.
5. The inherent violence of masculinity – is a lie
6. The inherent goodness of femininity – is a lie
Completely agree with you here, both are total and utter bullshit.
Maybe I should call myself a humanist rather than a feminist, as other anti-feminists have suggested, but I’m not ready to abandon home that we might yet turn this ship around. I (and other feminists – not misandrists) support women’s AND men’s rights, and do not wish neither to shun the responsibilities that come along, nor to oppress men.
Aaand someone deleted my comment. So much for the “ballsy, free thinking MRM”.
Nobody deleted your comment, chill out dude. New commenters are usually held in pending, and sometimes our spam filters have a mind of their own. I’ve cleared your comment, and if you have any more trouble just let us know.
In any case, I would suggest spending a little more time around here before making sweeping generalizations about what kind of reactions you’ll get. We argue all the time around here. We believe critical analysis and debate from a rigorous, logical, fact-based mindset is helpful, personal attacks not so much.
Pray excuse my cynicism, it was merely a feeling of disappointment from watching a couple of posts (apparently) evaporate.
Can someone please provide an alternative link to the information in source one?
I am a recent rape survivor, on anti-depressants, and I’m afraid of even opening the link. I’d like to see the material, but the name of the site gives me reason to believe the way it is couched and discussed will be very destructive to me. That is to say, victim blaming.
Reference 1 is just links to three other pieces, which all together offer little more than some methodological criticisms of the Ms. report, some different statistics measuring substantially different things, and a lot of Sturm und Drang about radical feminists. There are some problems with the Ms. report, but we’ve had much better data available for 20 years now, so it’s kind of silly that anybody still thinks this is news.
The latest CDC report finds the lifetime incidence of rape for women in the US to be about 1 in 8 under the strictest definition, “completed forced penetration,” or 1 in 5 if attempted and drug or alcohol assisted penetration are included. You can read it here: http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/
Im am young (23) but at an age that I consider to be asking questions that are not so self centered. Lately I have been reading both MRA and feminist blogs/websites/societies/videos etc. and really what I came to the conclusion is that I am a equal rights activist.
It may sound as I am trying to cop out of the true matters, but it seems to really surprise me all this division of men and women rights, when in fact this is what has been the cause of all ailments in the first place.
Why always pick in the bad side of the coin and never the best? Both groups are really guilty of doing this type of behaviour. Both groups should focus on the good of each other.
I am in no way blind that, and unaware that both have made mistakes and actually still do, but it really gives me a very low hope when I see the separation especially when both groups can bring so much to the table.