woman in bra holding man by his tie 750

“Turn off the Red Light” campaign intends to actively target all sexually active males

There is an effort underway to introduce “The Swedish Model” into Irish law on prostitution. In brief, the  Swedish model, created in 1999, criminalises the buyer of sexual services but not the seller.

Any consideration of the Swedish model must recognise the genesis of the law and the thinking behind it. The change in the law was incorporated in a government bill, the Violence against Women Act.  The thinking which informed the bill was ideologically driven. Its proponents asserted two fundamental propositions: that no woman voluntarily enters into prostitution and that prostitution and sex trafficking  are inextricably entwined. No empirical evidence was advanced in support of either even though all that followed was based on them. This is the ideology of radical feminism. The historian Yvonne Svanstrom describes the parliamentary debates as being heavily gendered. In addition, the uniqueness of the proposal was emphasised, all of which took place at an ideological level with no appeal to empiricism which was explicitly rejected.

At one stroke the proposal  is to eliminate sex trafficking and prostitution by one simple provision. No woman in prostitution is seen as having made a free choice; instead they are all regarded as innocent victims. The conflating of prostitution with sex trafficking is both simplistic and opportunistic. This enhances the appeal of the larger proposal to eradicate prostitution altogether. However many research workers in the field see prostitution as a complex issue and do not regard it and sex trafficking as the same thing. The sex workers in their alliance SWAI,  Sex  Workers Alliance Ireland,  do not regard themselves as trafficked or incapable of making their own choices.

Much is made of the alleged success of the Swedish law in reducing prostitution.

In 2008, the Swedish government set up an official inquiry, the Skarhed Inquiry, into the effects that the purchase law has had on prostitution and human trafficking in Sweden which then produced a report. The report was sent to the consultation process, where interested groups were provided with the opportunity to comment on it. While many were favourable, those from academic sources, such as the Department of Criminology at Stockholm University were very critical. Two Swedish researchers, Petra Östergren and Susanne Dodillet, analysed the responses and compared them to the official report and found major contradictions. Their study concluded that there was no evidence to support the official claims.

The police are now engaged in extensive operations in relation to the indoor market. Surveillance, phone tapping, monitoring of sites, mobiles, advertisements etc. (National Police Board Sweden, 2010)

Below are comments from another paper which criticises the Skarhed Report:

April 2012 Ann Jordan

“Lastly, the branch of radical feminism that supports this analysis of sex work uses the rhetoric of ‘violence against women’ and ‘victimhood’ as a tool to silence and disempower ‘socially objectionable’ women. They collaborate with governments to create tools to enforce their views about appropriate gender roles.”

“It is important to note at the outset that the mandate for the Skarhed Report ensured that the results would not provide any support for abandoning the prostitution law. There is no evidence the law reduced the number of sex buyers.

The law has been enforced almost entirely against clients of street-based sex workers but the government does not have any evidence of a decrease in sex buyers since the law went into effect. They do not know how many men were soliciting on the street before or after the law. They do not know if men moved from the streets to indoors and online, or out of the country. They have not collected such data and so cannot prove any success in achieving the primary goal of the law.”

In 2008 Kajsa Wahlberg, of the human trafficking unit at Sweden’s national police board, conceded that accurate statistics are hard to obtain, but estimated that the number of prostitutes in Sweden dropped 40% from 2,500 in 1998 to 1,500 in 2003.[96] However by 2010 she had conceded that the policy had failed, and that issues around prostitution were increasing as noted in the media which carried out surveys on the street.

Exporting the Model

Fact sheets outlining Swedish policy made it very clear that prostitution and trafficking were manifestations of the same male criminal predisposition, ‘male violence against women and children’, who are described as victims. A severe threat to society as a whole and indeed the world at large is described.

Present law in Ireland:  While some activities connected with prostitution such as soliciting, pimping and brothel keeping are criminal offences, it is not at present an offence for consenting adults to exchange sex for money.

The Turn Off the Red Light (TORL) campaign was begun in Ireland around 2010 to introduce the Swedish Model into Irish Law. There are three core members of the campaign:  Immigrant Council, Ruhama and National Women’s Council.

They initiated it, organised it together with other groups, recruited other civic organisations  including trade unions,  provided the narrative and altogether controlled the agenda.  It  is driven by the ideology of radical feminism with some religious fundamentalism thrown in.

As before prostitution and sex trafficking are inextricably entwined. This conflation of two separate phenomena most definitely suited the campaign agenda and was designed to sway wavering supporters or those with misgivings otherwise. This conflation was also challenged at the hearings before the Justice Committee and has been condemned both by the UN Global Commission on HIV and the Law 2012 and the UNAIDS Advisory Group on HIV and Sex Work 2011.

The campaign has been characterised by heavy appeals to the emotions by use of videos featuring alleged victims and many horror stories. The campaign has powerful supporters both inside and outside Leinster House. Six trade unions Siptu, Impact, Unite, Teeu, Cwu, Pseu have joined as well  as INMO and IMO.

The Labour party was an early supporter. Access to Dail and Seanad was regular where talks were given  and films, videos were shown. In Oct. 2011 a bill was tabled in the Seanad in favour of the campaign by Sen. Katharine Zappone. Another ardent supporter is Ivana Bacik.

It should be remembered that there was a Europe wide,  even international campaign being conducted at the same time.

In June 2012 a discussion document was published by Justice outlining options for Review of the Law. In  August a call for submissions was made and in Oct. a conference was held in the Dept of Justice. Over 800 submissions were received but owing to their huge influence most were made by TORL  supporters. The opposition consisted mainly of individuals, some academics expert in the field and only one organisation, SWAI.

Hearings were conducted by the Joint Oireachtas Committee over Dec. 2012-Feb. 2013. During these an alarming level of bias was apparent.  First, the time allocated was heavily in favour of TORL: overall  there were 27 people on that side as against 7 on the opposing side. The opposition was not afforded sufficient time to make a proper case.

Second, it was clear there was a strong bloc in the committee who favoured TORL. Labour had three members, two independents K. Zappone and Ronan Mullen had declared support in the Seanad while on the opening day the Fianna Fail Justice spokesman Niall Collins stated his party’s support for TORL. With seven out of fifteen already committed it was clear from the outset that the outcome was a foregone conclusion.

The JOC report was issued in June 2013. As expected it was unanimously in favour of the Swedish Model.  Its conclusions are worthy of particular study:

4.3.3 Legal reform

Provision should be made in law for the following:

  • a summary offence penalising the purchase of sexual services of another person by means of prostitution, or any request, agreement or attempt to do so; it should at the same time be clarified that no offence is committed by the person whose sexual services are so sold;
  • increased penalties for trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation;
  • increased penalties for organising or living off the earnings of prostitution;
  • an offence of recklessly permitting a premises to be used for the purposes of prostitution;
  • the regulation and inspection of premises advertised as massage parlours so as to eliminate those used for prostitution;
  • witnesses in cases dealing with sexual exploitation through prostitution and/or trafficking to give evidence anonymously;
  • an offence of grooming a child or vulnerable person for the purpose of sexual abuse or exploitation;
  • power for the An Garda Síochána to have disabled or vested in them any telephone number in use in the State that is suspected on reasonable grounds of being used for the purposes of prostitution;
  • that the accessing of web sites – whether located in the State or abroad – that advertise prostitution in the State should be treated in the same way as accessing sites that advertise or distribute child pornography.

One provision should be noted: a seller of sexual services would be free to solicit but if the other party simply agreed to purchase he would be guilty of a criminal offence. It is also unclear whether payment is in cash or whether it could include gifts, meals, alcohol or entertainment. If these are included any man  going on a one-night stand where he pays for such items could find himself facing a criminal rap if things dont work out.

Both Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein endorsed their support for TORL at their Ard Fheiseanna in April and May of 2013. The only people to speak out against TORL in the Dail were six independents: Clare Daly, John Halligan, Joan Collins, Mick Wallace, Richard Boyd Barrett, Luke Flanagan.

However not all events have run in favour of the Swedish Model.  It is true that the French Assembly voted in favour in Dec. 2013, but the Danish Ministry of Justice Committee Report on reform of the criminalisation of sexual offences in Denmark (report no. 1534) found:

According to the report, a criminalisation of the purchase of sexual services (the Swedish Model) will most likely not have any actual effects on the reduction of prostitution in Denmark because a ban on the purchase of such services will be extremely difficult for the police to enforce. Criminalisation will merely demonstrate a general moral condemnation of the purchase of sexual services. The report suggests that this may even have negative consequences for the women providing the services due to potential poorer financial conditions for these women and increased stigmatisation. For these reasons in particular, the committee does not recommend a criminalisation of the purchase of sexual services in Denmark. The findings in the report are based on practical experience with the Swedish model in other countries and existing knowledge about prostitution in Denmark

The Danish Government announced on 21 November 2012 that they did not wish to introduce the Swedish model into Danish law. One should note that the reasons given are the exact opposite of those cited by the JOC in its favour.

On June 29 2013, the Scottish Parliament rejected the Swedish Model. It had  previously rejected it in April 2010 and again in 2011. [The proposer of the bill, Labour MSP Rhoda Grant stated:

“I am disappointed that the Bill has fallen due to not achieving cross-party support when there was such overwhelming support expressed in response to my consultation from a wide range of individuals and organisations. I will continue to press for the introduction of legislation that aims to tackle the demand side of the industry and support for those who have been failed by society.”

This shows the determination and the power of the radical feminist lobby.

In a submission to the Stormont Assembly  in 2013 the PSNI had this to say about the Swedish model:

There is a serious concern that displacement or movement into a hidden environment would seriously impede law enforcement capability. The proposal may also be difficult to enforce as Law Enforcement would require corroboration of a transaction  between two parties involved.

Alternative evidence gathering methods utilised by European Law Enforcement partners, who have criminalised this activity is not available to  the PSNI. The deterrent value of the legislation would be minimal, in that persons using  prostitutes do so in a clandestine way. The legislation, as proposed around  the purchase of sex, will present investigative difficulties and in reality would  be difficult to police, given the requirement to  prove who offered what for sale, and the specific details of the interaction between two or more persons.

There is also concern that this would draw resources away from Human Trafficking investigations into a prostitution enforcement role. Law enforcement activity to reduce demand for the product of organised crime has concentrated on public awareness rather than criminalisation. It Is suggested that demand reduction is focused on awareness within the area of  human trafficking. Whilst  there are many advocates of the Swedish Model in the criminalisation of the purchase of sexual services, there is conflicting information available.

Recent PSNI experience and investigations in Sweden have highlighted concern that significant  levels of trafficking and prostitution still exist despite the introduction of  legislation to criminalise the purchase of sexual services.  The prostitution environment in Sweden is not comparable to the situation existing in Northern Ireland,  in that the majority of Prostitution is on-street or females involved in prostitution being transported to residences or addresses.

and this:

The majority of prostitution within Northern Ireland is through independent prostitutes who are not trafficked or controlled by organised crime groups.

UglyMugs conducted the largest recent survey on escorts working in Ireland. The vast majority (97%) was self-employed  (and not controlled by an outsider); the others had worked for another party such as an escort agency. Such statistics bear out the fact that sex workers are exercising choice and are not always coerced into prostitution.

Norway

The Swedish law was introduced here in Jan. 2009. To judge from the annual reports from ProSentret, the city of Oslo’s resource center on matters related to prostitution, it has not been a success.

Since 2008, the number of prostitutes in the streets of Norway has decreased by 30 percent, but the annual report of 2011 from “Pro Senteret”, the city of Oslo’s resource center on matters related to prostitution, also shows that prostitutes are now coming back regardless of the new legislation.

Estimates from Oslo show that 850 women sold sex in Oslo last year, compared to 500 women in 2009. This is an increase of 70 percent according to the “Pro Senteret” annual report of 2011.

A newspaper report 22 Jun 2012 ran the story:

Norway should rip up a law that criminalizes sex buyers, Oslo’s social affairs chief believes, as a new report shows a marked rise in violence against prostitutes working in the city.

Anniken Hauglie (Conservative Party) called for the law to be scrapped after the city’s official help centre for prostitutes, Pro Sentret, released a report on Friday detailing deteriorating conditions for sex workers in the capital.

”The reality is that the law has made it more difficult for women in prostitution,” Hauglie said. The Pro Sentret report indicates that the law has in fact made prostitutes much more susceptible to violence at the hands of their clients as the sex trade moves further underground.

The 2012 annual report by Pro-Sentret, Oslo’s official “help centre” for sex workers has this to say:

“there is no reason to believe that there has been a reduction in the prostitution market in the past year. On the contrary. Much suggests that the Norwegian prostitution market remains fairly stable in terms of the number of people who sell sex, nationality and how prostitution is organized.”

More recently, it revealed new venues for prostitution in Trondheim in  bars and restaurants and tanning salons are increasingly being used.

Ireland

The figures for trafficking (all purposes) produced by AHTU, the Anti Human Trafficking Unit are as follows:

  • 2010: 78
  • 2011: 57
  • 2012: 48

These are alleged cases many of which are still being investigated. This is important to remember since TORL try to confuse the issue frequently and the Dept of Justice confirms that many alleged cases turn out not to stand up.

The 2012 Report, Friday 20th December 2013, indicates a further reduction in the number of reported cases of human trafficking compared to previous years. An examination of data between 2009 and 2012 indicates that the number of persons originating from outside of the EU reported as victims has been declining on a yearly basis.

Noting the level of reports of human trafficking of children for the purposes of sexual exploitation in the Report, the Minister said,

“With regard to the abhorrent human trafficking of children for the purposes of sexual exploitation, it is important that we recognise that the offences that are reported for 2012 arise predominantly outside of the context of prostitution. Human Trafficking is very broadly defined in Irish legislation and offences relating to child pornography, for example, may often contain the elements of human trafficking – such as recruitment and sexual exploitation – that will bring such actions within the legal definition of human trafficking.

The reports concerning 21 of the 23 children in 2012 related to offences such as child pornography, sexual assault and sexual indecency, rather than exploitation through prostitution. That is not to say that the trafficking of children for exploitation through prostitution may not be occurring, 2 cases of that nature were reported in 2012 and remain under investigation.”

TORL has made a number of  claims in the course of its campaign which it has not been made to account for by the media:

  • The claim that it has 1.6 million supporters
  • That the trafficking for prostitution trade is worth €250 million p.a. to organised crime
  • That 75% of prostitutes entered the trade as minors. Indeed the further claim that the average age of entry is 14 has also been made.

More generally it has made claims that prostitutes suffer a wide range of  disorders and abuses including  ptsd. Much of this is based on the “work” of one Melissa Farley, a notorious  radical feminist who has been cited for unprofessional conduct and has been slated by many researchers in the field around the world for biased claims. Farley is quoted many times in the references submitted by ICI, Ruhama and NWC. She was dismissed as unreliable by Judge Susan Himel  of the Ontario Superior Court. Her findings in relation to prostitution in New Zealand were categorically denied by the Government. She quoted figures five times greater than those given by the Government.

Some quotes from submissions made by NWC, Ruhama and ICI

NWC:

The prostitution of women and girls constitutes a fundamental violation of women’s human rights and a serious form of male violence against women. The system of prostitution perpetuates patriarchal views on women’s sexuality and legitimates male domination in society.

The dearth of any effective legislation in Ireland to curb the sex industry sends out a message to men and boys that women are sexual commodities to be bought. The current situation legitimises the traditional sexuality of dominance and submission.

The situation whereby adults in the absence of any degree of control or duress or lack of alternatives, discreetly agree to exchange sex for money seldom occurs.

Ruhama:

Essentially what men purchase is the power to be violent with the likelihood there will be no sanctions.

Male abusers can act with impunity because they know that women in prostitution will not be believed or taken seriously by the criminal justice system.
If one woman is for sale then potentially all women are for sale

Education/Attitudes to Condom Use: Recommendations for education of men in changing attitudes to condom use are to be welcomed, but should not, and arguably cannot be restricted to sex buyers. Such initiatives must (and generally do) target all men who are sexually active, who can be classed as ‘potential buyers’.

ICI:

If a man is determined to get paid sex nothing can stop him in countries where prostitution is tolerated/legalised and where the availability of women is unlimited. In fact the chances that he will brutalise more prostitutes is much greater because the likelihood is that he is not committing a crime in legal terms. Who is to stop him? If however, there is a ban in operation, this man will be seen as the offender that he actually is.

What you can do

Write or contact your TDs and put your views to them based on what you have learnt. Emphasise the point that this is just another aspect of  the way men are being demonised. If you are a member of one of the six trade unions that supported TORL raise this at a union meeting. Ask why you were not consulted. They will try to avoid debate at all costs. They hate to be associated with radical feminism or religious fundamentalism.

The unions are: SIPTU, TEEU, IMPACT, UNITE, CWU, PSEU. The same applies to IMO, INMO. Try to get a discussion going. If they stonewall get a signed petition and send it to the General Secretary. If you are a Labour, Sinn Fein or Fianna Fail supporter make sure your representatives know your feelings. Raise it at local meetings. These three parties have signed up to TORL. More than twenty local councils also signed up, many of them by unanimous vote. Put this to your local councillors and ask them to reconsider.

Some further reading

For a powerful look at the position here read the article by Fionola Meredith from 2013. Nick Davies’ piece on trafficking outlines the way that hysteria has taken over discussion. Another piece of essential readingby an expert in the field is by Eilis Ward last year.

The PSNI document is here. The reports by ProSentret are here for 20112012 and 2013.

The very extensive reports into the review of Danish law are here and here. These last are the Danish reports 2012. See p.60-69 Vol I, 469-576 Vol.2, however these are in Danish only. The English version of the latest monitoring report by the Swedish police was published May 2013, and covers the year 2011.

Oslo

Norwegian women organizations believe Norwegian newspaper VG’s recent coverage of prostitute Hege Grostad gives a one-sided representation of the sex industry.

Norwegian tabloid newspaper VG published a 15-page- story about Hege Grostad working as a prostitute in Oslo.

Hege Grostad is a university student, Mensa member and lobbyist. She finds the term “selling your body” distasteful, and describes her job as “relaxing”. For the past two years she’s also been one of Norway’s 3,000 sex workers, and is at the heart of a grassroots campaign to decriminalise and regulate the sex industry.

According to the article presented with a smiling picture of the Grostad (27), she sells sex to finance her studies and now wants to change the law criminalizing prostitution in Norway.

Pro Centre, the Swedish sex workers advocacy group, believes

“All people are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience, and should act towards one other in a spirit of brotherhood.” – The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Pro Centre believes that all work in relation to prostitution must be based on human rights. Prostitution is an act, not a character trait of some human beings. Prostitution involves two parties: one person buying, and one person selling, sexual services. We want to live in a society where no-one feels that prostitution is the only available option. We cooperate with individuals, respecting the choices that they make in the situations in which they find themselves. Pro Centre wants to replace myths and prejudices about prostitution with greater insight and knowledge.

We want to live in a society that instead of stigmatising women and men who sell sex shows solidarity with them. Society should invest heavily in preventing prostitution and in providing help to people who are looking for alternatives to sex work. Female and male sex workers must be included as equal partners in the processes that relate to them and their lives. Pro Centre aims to support individuals by making them aware of their rights and responsibilities, and helping them to maintain their self-respect and good health so that they can take control of their own lives and realise their true potential.

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  • Susie Parker

    Better to target 99 Johns than the one prostitute accommodating them.

    • Bewildered

      That’s a clever deflection to fool gullible idiots, dear Susie. “Vulnerable women” being protected from “evil rapey men” is always great news for fools who sit before their TV s to laud these crooks.
      ALA they don’t cause any social nuisance[not the feelz type,REAL] neither the John nor the prostitute should be targeted.

      • Susie Parker

        Well, I had my Blackwell quote numbers off: “It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”,

        Point being – why run around chasing the hundreds of little fish instead of one big fish.

        We all know it doesn’t work either way, but “we gotta dooooooo something” rules the day.

        So you arrest a hundred men – the one prostitute will just keep on working.

        • Bewildered

          Do you really think they are interested in solving this problem ?
          Isn’t arresting lots of men[radfems’ euphoria], a validation of the popular notion that ‘men are evil’ ?
          A lot of people have vested interests in pretending that it works!

          • Susie Parker

            Why, it worked perfectly well on the War On Poverty and the War On Drugs not to mention the War On Women.

            We no longer have poverty, drugs…or women.

            I see no reason to believe it won’t work perfectly fine on ending the scourge of The World’s Oldest Profession.

            The. World’s. Oldest. Profession.

            I have great faith in those running things.

  • Laura Lee

    I cannot emphasise enough how much the current campaign by TORL is based on a tissue of lies, which they have been called out on, again and again. I am an Irish sex worker with 20 yrs experience and can tell you that what they claim is absolute rubbish and just to secure their continued funding.

    Some facts about TORL and Ruhama –

    TORL have repeatedly made false claims about children being exploited in prostitution. One of these is that 19 children were found in the Irish commercial sex trade in 2012. TORL continue to make this claim on Twitter. It is false and Alan Shatter has even gone so far as to send out a press release about this and include a statement about it in his department’s Annual Report of Trafficking in Human Beings in Ireland for 2012 published in December 2013.

    Ruhama have been receiving generous Government funding for many years. This has decreased significantly in recent years, as most organisations being government funded have had their funding reduced in recent years due to the financial difficulties, but Ruhama still receives hundreds of thousands in government funding every year. In their latest accounts filed with the CRO for the year 2012 they acknowledge receiving over 300 thousand euro that year from various Government departments.

    Ruhama’s offices are at High Park, the same area where one of the religious orders involved in Ruhama, the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity, ran Ireland’s biggest Magdalene Laundry for many years. In 1993 when the sisters were selling land around High Park there was a scandal when a mass grave containing the remains of 155 women, many of whom were unnamed, was discovered. The sisters are reported to have made €61.7 million selling land around High Park between 1999 and 2009.

    All of the Magdalene Orders are wealthy. In 2013 the Irish Times reported that between the four of them, they were estimated to have gross assets worth €1.5 billion in 2009, and that is only what we know about.

    The Magdalene Orders that say they can’t afford to contribute anything towards compensation for women they abused in the past are but they are donating money to TORL organisations today. For example in Ruhama’s latest accounts filed with the CRO for the year 2012 they acknowledge receiving over 28 thousand euro that year from the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity.

    Ruhama work with very few women and the statistics they publish are misleading. In their latest published annual report (2012) they said they supported 258 women including 78 victims of trafficking. But if you read the small print you will see only 63 of these were new cases, the rest were cases carrying over from past years. Of those 63 new cases, 18 were victims of trafficking according to Ruhama’s report. Also it appears these victims of trafficking are overwhelmingly only alleged victims being referred to Ruhama by the Gardai.

    The Department of Justice’s Annual Report of Trafficking in Human Beings in Ireland for 2012 says only 16 alleged victims of sex trafficking into prostitution were identified in 2012, all of these being adult females. The Gardai also say they only received 5 referrals from NGOs of potential trafficking victims in 2012, and that is covering the entire country and all types of trafficking. Even if every single one of those referrals was made by Ruhama, that would only be 5 possible victims they referred to Gardai in one year, hardly the huge numbers they make out they dealing with to the media.

    Food for thought.

    Here is a blog post you might find interesting too –

    http://lauraslifeandthoughts.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/how-do-you-solve-problem-like-ruhama.html

    PLEASE do not allow these people inflict their lies and agendas on all of us, for the benefit of their own purse strings.

    I’ve said it once and I’ll say it a million times, when two consenting adults have sex behind closed doors, it is NONE of anyone else’s business, even if money changes hands. End of.

    Thanks for reading, Laura. :)

    • Bewildered

      PLEASE do not allow these people inflict their lies and agendas on all of us, for the benefit of their own purse strings.

      Hear ! Hear !……..

      This dear Ladies and Gentlemen is SOCIAL JUSTICE WORK in a nutshell !

      Cui bono ?

      Hypocritical scum of the earth euphemistically called SJW {the professional ones,not the self proclaimed useful idiots who talk shit on the net }

      Feminism has a much bigger cupboard of skeletons.

      The real taffickers might have more concern for these women than these scum who are ostensibly fighting for women’s rights !

    • alex brown

      Children in prostitution is illegal anyway, so why do they make up such a emotive lie? In fact it is a very disgusting and random lie to tell.

      • Laura Lee

        Exactly. Sex with a child is already an offence, trafficking is already an offence, rape is already an offence. But the biggest offence of all ? Is that they think Irish people won’t see through their greedy endeavours.

      • Bewildered

        Psychosis induced by ideology.

    • Dagda Mór

      Hi Laura, we’ve had a few exchanges with UglyMugs and SWAI recently, and there seem to be some misperceptions about the primary movers behind TORL. This is a feminist initiative, called the Swedish model because it originated with Swedish feminists, and is based on their patriarchy theory.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#Official_position

      The religious orders seem to have latched on to it as part of an effort to avoid going out of existence entirely,

      http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/feminists-and-religious-conservatives-in-strange-alliance-over-transactional-sex-1.1638669

      Of course it’s not the first time that feminists and conservative religious orders have stood together.

      http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/12/09/conservative-mp-radical-feminist-and-evangelical-christian-come-together-to-block-online-porn-in-canada/

      And there is also the abovementioned support of the largest feminist groups in the country. Now while I do understand the concept of realpolitik I still feel that you should be aware that both UglyMugs and SWAI seem disinclined to accept that this is a feminist initiative, so I mean there may be a certain amount of writing on the wall in this situation. Or possibly there’s a schism within the feminist movement itself on the matter, but time will tell I guess.

      Just an FYI.

  • gary959

  • napocapo69

    “All people are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience, and should act towards one other in a spirit of brotherhood.”

    But

    “Men should be jailed if they have sex with women in change of money.”

    Accoording to a recent feminist amendment. Also “botherhood” has been replaced by “sisterhood”.

    Anyhow in Sweden RadFem are working on banning breastfeeding. Getting milk for free is theft.

  • Sasha

    Ireland’s economy goes up the spout in the Great Recession, and – surprise, surprise – a coalition of the usual public-funded parasites cooks up a plan to secure themselves more cash and prizes. The Irish people need to tell their politicians to stop spending their time poking about in peoples bedrooms and focus their attention on creating jobs.

    • Vương Vi-Nhuyễn – 王微軟

      Prostitution = a job… criminalizing clients means less prostitutes, thus tougher competition, thus less jobs, thus actually going against what they’ve promised. (–_–)

      • Chris Wedge

        Feminism in a nutshell, really.
        We wouldn’t be here if they weren’t selfish liars looking for money off the back of misery.

      • Dagda Mór

        No, it means less clients and those clients are more likely to be people who don’t care about the law.

        You do the math.

  • Vương Vi-Nhuyễn – 王微軟

    A few weeks ago I was in the Hague and I had exchanged with an Irish prostitute, she told me that she voluntarily joined the work, she showed me a picture of her mother (it was a part of a conversation we had that didn’t regard prostitution, but a more personal one), and she said that she was previously employed in a more high-paying job and that since she lost her previous job due to the company going bankrupt she became a prostitute because it meant the fastest and easiest money, and that she’s only ”behind the windows” once a week, and has even planned a schedule and an end-date, note that this was a high-educated woman from the European Union in a country where they also pay with the Euro, she spoke highly of her parents and called them ”great parents” (though none were aware of her profession).

    People often come with wrong and dangerous stereotypes about prostitutes, let’s just use this Irishwoman, she said that she had heard from her professional doctor that there were women who worked in prostitution for 40+ years and never caught a single S.T.D. (she later shamed sluts and bashed them on how many S.T.D.’s they catch and called them ”unhygienic”), she’s tested every 3 months, our transaction was 100% respectful, whenever I requested something she didn’t like I simply didn’t request it again as it might cause irritation, as a submissive man I like being ”the bottom” if she doesn’t like it I respect her wish, she said that most of her customers are respectful towards her, I could have a normal social conversation with her, and she’s probably nicer than 90% of the people I meet (note that I do a lot of voluntary work), in fact most prostitutes I’ve met tend to be kind-hearted and understanding, and I feel comfortable exchanging stories with them, even more than with most of my friends.

    Another negative stereotype is that those women were forced into it, she said that she has never met another prostitute who was forced and she spoke very much against it, also the Dutch government closely regulates this, her parents raised a good girl, they had no control in circumstances, some dumb stereotype I’ve heard about strippers* which often extends to prostitutes is that they have had horrible fathers and that they got into the profession over ”daddy issues”. (–_–)

    * = I’ve never visited a strip-club in my life, nor am I interested in it, so I can’t speak much about stippers or related ”gravure dancers” (non-sex-related acts to arouse men).

    A day before I visited a Chinese prostitute (Taiwan province of the Republic of China, not the P.R.C. I mean wealthy China, she was born in Taibei, the capital of China and a wealthy city from which I have several friends and acquaintances) who was also a ”normal woman”, I could talk to her about basic stuff and she also spoke high about her parents (not that I go around asking prostitutes about their families, it was literally just mentioned by her), she had a good life in China but moved here for our culture, she watched T.V. on her phone when I saw her in the window and we talked and I complimented her which she appreciated, rarely have I had bad experiences with prostitutes, with all the prostitutes I’ve slept with only less than 5 I disliked or regretted (one as a child on which I performed cunnilingus and anilingus, note that I feared having H.I.V./A.I.D.S. for years), this law isn’t protecting them, this law would actually make their lives and professions harder.

    The people who wrote that law have no respect for either men or women, Elliot Rodgers could’ve been prevented if prostitution was legal, all the INCEL-shaming and virgin-shaming I often see redirected at young men and often by ad hominem against M.(H.)R.A.’s are counter-productive, not only will this not hold back illegal trafficking (as those people NEVER follow the law(s)), it will only create more (potential) Elliot Rodgers and might breed actual misogynists, kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, but that’s all Feminism truly is. and the people who oppose prostitution are the people who’ll say that ”men feel entitled for sex”, the same people who breed suicidal and crazy virgin-men who’ll go out and rape out of desperation, the same people who’ll make women who are unemployable for any other profession actually unemployed and might force those that aren’t lucky enough to find wealthy husbands (as most impoverished women I know have met/had millionaire suitors, though not all, in fact it’s more a game of luck and knowing how to get a millionaire) to do actual criminal actions.

    Excuse all the personal stuff but I just had to find a place where I could share this, thank anyone who took the time to read this. :-)

    • Vương Vi-Nhuyễn – 王微軟

      I remember as a Child my dream was to marry a prostitute, I’d tell you, some of them are the best women you’ll ever meet. :-)

      • http://caprizchka.wordpress.com Caprizchka

        This law like one in California could be interpreted as making marriage illegal.

  • Partridge

    If a man (or woman) is prosecuted for buying sex from a prostitute, then the woman (or man) offering that sexual service should also be prosecuted for aiding and abetting a ‘criminal’ act.

  • alex brown

    Should we outlaw relationships then? They are just a long term contract for exchanging resources in return for sex.

  • DukeLax

    Hetero- sex is becoming a “legal liability”.

    The average women who wants a family will not benefit in the long run the the perversions and “manufactured statistics Alliances” that have slowly worked themselves into Law enforcement; that are turning hetero-relationships into a legal liabilities for guys.

  • Andrejovich Dietrich

    Isn’t marriage prostitution? Minus the sex, since we know that the ring seems to sap out sexual drive in women. or at least sex with their husbands.

  • Chris Smith

    If you support the right of a woman to control her body (e.g. abortion) then by extension of the same logic (her body – her choice) you also support her right to sell her body (prostitution). The 2 are inseparable. As for punishing buyers, good luck with that.

    Supply and demand.

  • Paul Johnson

    So would it be illegal to sell money and take sex as payment?

    • Whothehell Cares

      I’m going to adopt this question. I love it. It turns the whole concept of prostitution on its head.

    • Bewildered

      LOL !

  • DEDC

    It’s the transaction we don’t like. I get it. But why are we talking about this when we should be talking about legalizing it?

  • Correctrix

    I’m utterly horrified each time I hear about the Swedish Model. It’s another example of how much damage feminist ideology can do when it gets power. I know several women in sex work, and they’ll tell you that it is extremely profitable and empowering self-employment. They are the ones exploiting the horny guys. Any suggestion that the women need protection from the men seems absurd. Criminalisation just means the job can’t be done openly with the usual standards that develop in any legitimate industry, which just exposes the workers to danger from the minority of the men who are violent.

    • alex brown

      John’s are the biggest victims in this game. A lot of them are not even horny, just desperate for female validation.

      • http://womenandmenlivingtogether.blogspot.ca Joe Wilson

        An old friend of mine used to go out with prostitutes. He was extremely shy and all he wanted to do is talk to women. He found it refreshing that he could do so without there being an expectation of a relationship. Then one of the prostitutes fell in love with him and ended up stalking him.

        • Bewildered

          Goes to show that human needs go beyond sex doesn’t it ?

  • Shrek6

    “Its proponents asserted two fundamental propositions: that no woman
    voluntarily enters into prostitution and that prostitution and sex
    trafficking are inextricably entwined.”

    Yeah bullcrap it is!

    We don’t need any factual evidence to know that the above statement is a crock load of garbage. I would propose that the majority of women in prostitution are there because they want to be there. They make a lot of money and live a pretty good lifestyle thank you very much.

    I wonder if the prostitutes themselves will also protest against this move?
    If they don’t, then the best thing men can do is to boycott the harlots and send them out of business. The pimps lose all their money and the govt also loses out, because there will be kick backs to some govt flunky, in the trade somewhere.

    You will see how effective these laws end up being, because the prostitutes will not stop working and will find ways of spiriting their customers in and out of some establishment, just so they can protect their income and lifestyle.

    The one concept that has always been overlooked in this debate, is the concept of who it is that is actually being exploited?
    We only ever hear about the exploitation of women by men for sex. Really!

    I put it to you for discussion that it is actually mostly men who are being exploited by women and yes even those in the evil trafficking trade of innocent young women who do not want to be there. There are men and women who run these outfits designed to make money out of other men and they will kidnap girls from anywhere in the world. A bullet is too good for this scum! Sorry, that wasn’t very Christian of me I know, but you get the drift.

    Conversely, I have no need to feel for any of the women who choose to be there. They have no right to complain, because they are there to exploit men and make lots of money out of them.

    The exploitation of men to make a huge amount of money out of sex, is in my opinion much worse than the exploitation of women by men to satisfy their own biological desires and needs.

    At the end of the day, if they are going to prosecute, publicly humiliate/shame or imprison the man for seeking the services of a prostitute, then the prostitute should get the exact same treatment under the law, as her customer gets.

  • Ekalavya

    It doesn’t matter the prostitution decrease or increase. It never meant for that. It’s a feminist revenge on men. Having complete control on sex is the motto. It’s an open secrete.

  • tz1

    Giggolo Blackknights unite. Cougar traps.

  • Man Alive

    Aside from the legal/illegal aspect of this, once I fully ingested the red pill I realized that paying for something that’s simultaneously giving away for free – xex, struck me personally as odd and lacking in self respect.

  • ExpatMatt

    You can’t protect delicate flowers enough. Literally. The more they are protected, the more they feel they need protecting.

    Especially when perceived victimhood has become a form of social authority.

  • Greboada

    With regard to prostitution, I HIGHLY recommend this blog:

    http://barriorojo-esl.blogspot.com.es

    It’s an spanish blog (though it could describe the situation in almost every country). This one, for example, is the last article through google translate about how prostitutes’ organizations are sistematically dismissed by government.

    goo.gl/TmE3Rx

    The guy behind the blog have developped quite an investigation about the subject (some of the articles are really interesting) and, long story short, it’s a business. A business where police and feminist groups usually walk together to get the money.

  • RSDavies

    I disagree with most of the comments here. The fact is that this law doesn’t go far enough. Prostitution is a commercial exchange in which a resource is used to obtain sexual gratification in a controlled environment where the vendor generally controls the market conditions. Th.e exponents of this law are mired in absurd and outmoded constructs. If the commercial trade for sex is objectionable and damaging to the women involved, then all forms of this commerce should be barred.
    In the daily stream of advertising and a vast body of literature, there is the repeated correlation between mens supply of resources and women’s supply of sexual gratification. The man who buys the expensive ring has sex with the woman. The man who is unable or unwilling, is closed out of the market. The alpha male is actually the alpha customer, time after time.
    These socially acceptable forms of commercial exchange for sex could be regarded in the same way that soft drugs are seen as a precursor to hard drugs. While not all women will progress from this socially acceptable money for sex trade to professional sex working, some will. Popular culture sets the scene.
    Clearly the means to root out the hard core sex industry is to eradicate the socially acceptable form from our society.
    Thus I suggest that this law should be extended to include all commercial operators of any kind (marketing co’s, TV stations, film makers, advertisers, publishers etc etc) that purveyor for profit the idea that the exchange of money for sex between men and women is acceptable. These commercial operators set the scene for males and females to regard various forms of prostitution as acceptable.
    Books like Cinderella, that show the implied trade between access to Cinder’s body for Prince Charming for Cinder’s access to wealth, status and unconditional popular adulation, should be banned.

    • https://www.facebook.com/Psychedelic.Experience Margus Waffa Meigo

      GOverment should manage prostitution, government should manage and protect drug sales.
      Its so simple, why its still with dark forces?

      Spiritual and religious people do know….

  • sé do bheatha a bhaile

    This issue appears to be au current among nations, for the same policy is being introduced in Canada. We here in the plain-speaking mhrm know full well this will never work. There will always be a need for sex work. How can they possibly enforce this when so many men need it, even depend upon it? What, are policemen and politicians going to arrest themselves? It is to laugh.

  • RSDavies

    This issue waxes and wanes decade in, decade out. In the 1990’s there was the idea that the men who purchase sexual services should be arrested and charged, and above all shamed. This was all proposed in the interests of women.
    The problem was that a large number (if not the majority) of these men were men with wives and children, who daily shared a bed with a woman. By publicising the arrest of these men, it highlighted that many men who outwardly have stable & secure relationships with women and provide homes for them and the children, actually inhabit a sexually and emotionally arid desert that doesn’t meet their needs.
    Is any of this news? Absolutely not, generations of men have lived in this situation, and everyone knows it but doesn’t want to discuss it – especially feminists.
    The problem with arresting & shaming these men is that it forces the man and his wife to confront the uncomfortable fact that their relationship does not meet the man’s desires & needs; and it also drags the children into the fore who now are aware that all is not well with Mummy & Daddy, and all their friends know too. All of this can quickly lead to the end of a marriage which had provided a stable environment for the children and the woman.
    So who benefits? Actually no one except the bodies that receive public funding.
    The co-location with various religious groups is especially poignant as today the BBC reported that a mass grave has been found somewhere near Galway, where illegitimate babies had been dumped having been starved & neglected by the religious orders.

  • Laura

    Females are sexually agressively active as much as, or even somtimes more than, men these days,.. so this campain is nothing but a bunch of balony.

  • Paul Carr

    I have written a number of letters to the Government of the Republic of Ireland as well as Northern Irish politicians in which I advocate for the New Zealand model of sex work decriminalization.

    You are welcome to read.

    http://paulcarr.wordpress.com