Are you in pain? If you’re a man, then Shut Up.
Are you being abused, by your wife or girlfriend? Tough Shit.
Are you worn down by the continuous public narrative that due to your masculinity, you’re obviously a lesser person, or violent, or criminal, or just fucking guilty?
Quit Whining, Shut Up, and Pay Your Fucking Child Support Payments.
In fact, if you have any complaint about the systematic abrogation of your rights, and you speak up against the marginalization of your identity based on your sex, (if you’re male) and you weather years of public shaming, accusation, theft, violence, and criminalization of your person – you can be assured that nobody cares, and your pain is fodder for comedy, or else it is invisible.
What if a corrupt and profiteering family court system driven by money appropriated from fathers in their child support payments – this court system irrevocably separates you from your children, devastating you while utterly denying your pain, and garnishing your earnings. Tough shit, pay up sucker.
But lets say you endure such prolonged agony and abuse through the courts, and such systematic refusal by the institutions of society to redress any grievance that your last ultimate option to be heard is to literally and actually set yourself on fire and die, burning in public.
Now, lets imagine a world so totally twisted that the media totally blanks this as a news item. That dismissive and scant reporting of this act of political self immolation is written off with throw away lines calling you, the burned corpse – a deadbeat, a lone nut.
Imagine all that. It’s pretty far-fetched, but try.
Now, further imagine that a very few citizens recognize the significance of a father’s public suicide by gasoline fuelled self immolation, and that these rare few write an article on wikipedia documenting the decade of torment and eventual suicide by fire of a man so brutalized by a corrupt family court system.
Now, this last one will stretch credulity, but try to picture in your mind – a society so totally indifferent to the pain of humans who happen to be male, that the accounting of a political suicide by self immolation is deleted by the moderators of wikipedia on the grounds that it is irrelevant.
Try to imagine that.
I cant imagine that world. I truly and utterly cannot comprehend it.
…….
To you who belittled the pain or the sacrifice of Thomas ball:
To the members of the media who wrote this man off as a lone nut, or a deadbeat dad:
To the reporters and editors who made decisions not to mention this in your publications and broadcasts:
To ideologues who continue to dismiss the brutality and scorn heaped onto a man until he felt nothing except the agony of his body consumed by a gasoline fire he ignited himself:
And to the wikipedia editor who deleted his article under the horribly disgusting lie that this man’s death by self immolation was irrelevant:
Can you possibly imagine that you’re actually going to silence men so brutalized they burn themselves to death?
Can you actually be so profoundly stupid that you fail to recognize the extremity of rage, that when turned inwards in a last heroic effort to avoid harming others consumed a man in a tower of flames?
Do you, in your pea brains think blanketing the marginalization of men with silence will produce any outcome except a great many more disfigured corpses?
If you’re somebody addressed in that last section, look hard at yourself in the mirror. Sir or madame, have you no fucking decency? And if your answer to that is ultimately no, then beware of what you cultivate by your indifference.
Thomas James Ball’s Wikipedia article : http://avoiceformen.com/portal/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Thomas-James-Ball.pdf
Tags: Feminist governance, Feminist lies, Government Tyranny, Lying Feminist Scum, Lying feminist scumbags, Manuel Dexter, Media, Media Bias, Men, Miscellaneous
254 Posts in Total
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Theseus:
Alexander Hunt:
John Jack:
externalangst:
Greg Weigel:
This battle of ideas is fought in the media. Mainstream media has long been discredited with its blanket approval of Obummer and Pelosi and company, academia is a joke as ‘womyns studies’ legitimacy dilutes and tarnishes real academic inquiry.
So with the internet.
If what happened to Ball is a laughing stock then I have no problem with what Marc Lepine did. They want to play scorched earth let’s play scorched earth.
This has been said before on other places, but can you imagine if a woman had self-immolated on the steps of the Capitol building in response to the attack on abortion rights? The media would be all over that.
In fact they would have uncontrollable orgasms about it.
The word “whining” is, to me, one of the most loathesome words in the English language.
So is the slang term “crybaby”. Babies have good reasons to cry, and so do adults when they suffer in appalling ways. “Jesus wept.”
When Jesus was on the cross, the crowd mocked him for “whining” by saying things like, “I thirst.” And his being mocked for suffering was EQUALLY shitty even if in fact he was NOT Divine!
Of course he wasn’t murdered by the State for being male. He was murdered by the State simply because he didn’t totally submit to the State – which is the same reason why the State is murdering males today, because males are the main line of resistance to the State.
Jesus of Nazareth, Libertarian! “Is it lawful to pay taxes?” “Render to Caeasar what is Caesar’s (ie, nothing) and render to God what is God’s.” Substitute “truth” for “God” and I think we’re all in agreement here.
Pontius Pilate: “What is truth?” Bill Clinton: “What is the meaning of ‘is’?” Chairman Mao: “What is a citizen?” GW Bush: “Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.” Barack Obama: “It’s not a war, it’s a kinetic action.”
Take it either literally or metaphorically, but it’s true: Truly good men (including but not limited to Jesus) are murdered by lies; Jesus said “Satan is the Father of Lies, and a Murderer from the beginning”, and who killed him? The State. Ergo, the State is the Father of Lies, and the State is Evil.
On a similar note, American MRAs please take note: the Latin word for “Emperor”, “Imperator”, literally means “Commander In Chief”.
George Washington, who modeled himself upon the Roman Republican hero Cincinattus – a citizen soldier who retired to his farm after the necessary war was over – studiously avoided referring to himself as “Commander in Chief”, despite the fact that HE DESERVED that title more than any other American President has ever done. He would be turning over in his grave today, seeing today’s American Empire and the popular worship of the “Commander in Chief”, the Emperor, in a fatally militaristic nation.
To HELL with ALL Caesars! And to hell with their Pilate-like lackeys, including the kangaroo court who drove Thomas Ball to his heroic, sacrificial death.
I think a few more of Jesus’ words apply to Thomas Ball: “Greater love hath no man than this, to lay down his life for his friends.”
PS, I should modify Jesus words about the “Father of Lies” to say that in TODAY’S America, Satan – the State – is the “MOTHER of Lies!”
Ok here we go… sigh.
Severely off this exchange…Can we ALL just drop this?
Any chance of a small logo suitable for a t-shirt?
RIP – Thomas Ball
In requiem Thomas Ball
I’d like an easy to print to t-shirt transfer, which is enough to prompt questions, but leaving me the choice of what I say.
I am not interested in talking to a feminist about him, I’d like to just tell her to check wikipedia.
A man, I’d like to be able to point at avfm / spearhead etc.
(Yes, I am transparently trying to change the subject. I don’t think that both sides have anything to say against Tom Ball)
Peace, brothers
I realise that this is waaaaay below your abilities, but if you can picture an atom…my artistic abilities are much smaller than that…
As I asked, a small icon / logo…beggy beggy?
Of course, I’d like that.
Just email Paul, or ask him here to send you my email addy and I’ll shoot you one over mighty quick.
I was hoping for an epic that could be shared with everyone!
But, I’d be happy for Paul to make the connection. He has a true email address for me.
Buy you a beer if I ever get down your way…happy to (two…+)
Hic… love to take you up on that, maybe in Colorado
Is better I email you one as I can go above the half megabyte limit here. Better quality I reckon.
There was another MRA who was murdered by the state. His name was Wilbur Street,he was behind in his child support payments and died in Baltimore police custody.
Oh goodness the skin is thin.
I hate it when this happens, you showed such promise, though a bit artistically loquacious, most of it is funny….then this….to call it an over reaction would be an epic understatement, I was glad to see some reasonable folks at least follow up with, well, reasonable comments about how unfounded this is.
if the idea is to have the same 10 posters here doing cyber high 5′s, well great, good on ya. This starts to feel like some kind of club in school where those of us not cool enough get left out…..but are ok with that.
@ Mr James Cook
The OP is trying to give this man, Mr Ball who died in agony, some shred of post death respect in the wake of a MSM blackout.
You ponce in here and panel beat a grubby self serving post about elements of the bible and attempt to graft it on to some kind of MRA speech hoping it remains agreeable.
There is absolutely no doubt now. You are here to further your views on religion, and you will sanctimoniously stand a bit closer to heaven on your pulpit made from the body of a burnt man.
You are a disgusting and loathsome little prick and not because you believe deeply in god in the eyes of this atheist, but because I see you for what you are, an uncouth bastard peddling wares but hiding it in something else.
Effd Off:
For the time being – unless and until you take back what you wrote – I say, Fuck you up the ass with a porcupine, BECAUSE…
…BECAUSE, in my above comment, I ACKNOWLEDGED that MAYBE Jesus was NOT “Divine!”
CAN YOU READ?
And when I referenced the words of Jesus – who WAS a MAN, and all of the available evidence indicates he was a TRUTHFUL man with a big heart and a lot of courage – I said Jesus words could be interpreted either “literally OR METAPHORICALLY!”
So, my (presently hostile) Brother Eff’d Off (whose cartoons I admire as a fellow cartoonist), WHAT IS your REAL complaint here?
If you’re PRETENDING to complain about my “pulpit”, then please go and read all of the above again. My above comment cited some words by Jesus, a Man…
…so, what’s your beef against that? Against citing some words by, and stories about, a Man? A Man who, according to all available evidence, was a Truthtful Man who was murdered by the State?
Come on, Man, please get over your personal hostility to Christianity, if for no other reason than the fact that the majority of American Men are in fact Christians.
And yeah, I’m serious about admiring your cartooning skills, as one (amateur in my case) artist to another. On that note, here’s one of my favorite “politically incorrect” (and banned) cartoons, which reminds me of some of yours: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2I7rlmefA8
Your original message was spot on. The corrupt, sexist control system has been a problem for many years. It is abused many innocent people for questioning it. It has been subverted to many personal many egotistical many perverse interests at the expense of the people it was “created-ordained-established” to “serve” & “protect.” All this you are spot on.
This post is not consistent with anything Jesus would have said or done.
Your detractor was not able to look past the name Jesus without surcumming to prejudice & see your above mentioned message. Violent responses will elicit more violent responses & no logic nor reason is possible when the fight or flight mechanism is engaged.
I can tell from your original post that you are better than this response. Bowing to lower emotions will only end poorly for all.
Mr Cook,
I’m not going to go blog to blog with you as I find that to be more suited to the “no you didn’t, yes you did” stuff that chicks love doing online and anywhere else they glom.
In the past when I read your non divisive posts (please don’t nitpick here, you know what I mean) I really like what you say and appreciate your thought out words. You are quite obviously a very intelligent man and regardless of my “pissed offness” towards your behaviour I always upvote your words and not because I upvote everyone, as I do discern.
I take back when I said “You are a disgusting and loathsome little prick” without reservation and I regret typing those exact words. What I should have typed is “You are behaving like a disgusting and loathsome little prick.”
I was wrong not including “behaving like” in that and for this I am genuinely sorry. I have many faults but one I do not have is admitting I stuffed up.
As far as anything else I said I stand by it completely. Here’s why: Every single time without fail if anyone brings religion into a discussion the message of the OP and the thread itself becomes fractured.
This is a fact that not me, you or the best hypnotist could argue against. It’s just a fact, nothing more or less than that.
Look at the green and red ticks scuffling and nipping at each other like crabs in a sand pail. Well that’s us Mr Cook. Some of us are red crabs and some of us are green.
Now you might say at this point something like, “Well if you hadn’t been so aggressive with your reply to my original post then it might not have become this way”. If you did say something like that then I’d say something like, ” Nope, not buying it because I’ve seen divisive topics do this every single time and I almost never say anything in those fiery discussions”.
Religion isn’t the only divisive topic that does this as there are others.
Abortion and global warming would do it nicely here for example.
I have my strong thoughts about those and I’m not going to let others know what they are because I can predict with one hundred percent certainty the outcome of that. I think you know the outcome of that too.
As an MRA that spends every day at the very least an hour and a half sketching for our cause I don’t pretend myself a hero at all, no way as Mr Merrick, Karma and our Paul to name just a few are batting at it much more than that by a long shot, but I will say this though, if I broach topics of potential dilution and dissent to something I deeply care about then I might as well snap my pen and go do some painting for some more money so I can live better.
I cannot stress this enough, religion is a divider just like the other two I mentioned. It doesn’t matter if you’re completely right and just about everything I am saying is wrong, when you bring those things in here we will get the red mushrooming in tandem against the green and the posts of good men change colour.
I have absolutely no animosity against Christianity as you suggested, none at all.
My hope is at this point you’re seeing that my beef is about the effect of the broaching of the topic and not anything at all about the substance or content of the topic.
If the world felt strongly about plasticine ( hypothetically ) in that some held deep feelings of suspicion and hatred against the stuff and some held deep feelings of love and admiration for the stuff then it might be a prudent decision to not discuss it when gathered as one voice about something else also held deeply about.
I’ll say it again and again to anyone that cares: If you are an atheist or religious it’s irrelevant as religion like all other dividers does not care – it simply does it’s thing and divides and divides again.
I have strong feelings about Atheism and would like to discuss it, but I’ll be buggered if I’m going to because I know the cost. The payout for me is venting of sorts but the damage is horrendous by comparison.
It’s about prioritising in that maintaining fluidity and unity is a crucial element that must not be removed from place here.
We love unity and it’s better and shinier than gold and we want it big time.
Far far below that “want” is another priority and that’s my desire to talk about atheism.
If you feel inclined at this point to cry “freedom of speech” remember that this blog isn’t a laissez-faire poster for anyone to carve their words onto forever with a butcher’s blade.
It’s no democracy as comments are sometimes screened, people banned, posts lifted and paragraphs included with editorial notes.
My point is that there’s a good reason for it in the hands of the wise and it has to do with ethical editing.
Think about it for a second. We all edit every day with our words to others and with what we do. For example if we’re at a funeral we don’t slap on a pair of earphones and listen to The Beatles on our Ipod and we don’t tell a man with a knife in our backs that you fucked his daughter.
Those are random examples to illustrate the necessity to edit. If we didn’t edit we’d be dead long ago from the violent with no compunction to inflict mortal damage.
We edit because we shuffle our priorities and weigh up what works the best and not just for ourselves.
Quite simply I am asking you to edit in this capacity.
I ask you not because I disrespect Christians as I absolutely do not disrespect Christians, but because I see more now than ever the value of cohesion here. We can’t put a price on it because without it we dissolve into single cells of impotent rage.
Again Mr Cook my sincerest apologies to you. My wording and timing of the post was poor and for me to post like that is very much out of character.
I’m just gonna add my 2c for what it’s worth.
I agree that religion is divisive, but only when it becomes incessant proselytizing. I’m a pretty firm athiest and I’m unlikely to be converted. However, I find the religious anecdotes to be interesting at times and I don’t think it should be strictly excluded, especially when it is on topic and relevant to the discussion. In this instance, I don’t think James Cook stepped over any reasonable boundary.
I’m agnostic/atheist too and have no problem with examples that use religious metaphor or personalities.
Some people immediately freak out when they see even the hint of religion.
Taken out of context Mr Cook wrote in a very benign way to be sure. It’s just that when I see constant references to religion from a single source at least, then it takes on a whiff of the “soft sell.”
Thank you for your thoughtful replies. As to seeing “constant references to religion” in Mr. Cook’s posts it may be because his religiosity actually is profound and ‘permeates’ all facets of his life – unlike Sunday-only ‘Christians’.
Personally I totally understand your complaints about getting off on tangents and leaving the original Purpose of an article/website behind, but….(of course there’s a but) consider this: Mr. Cook’s presenting thoughtfully integrated religious beliefs with Men’s Rights issues here gives him opportunity for feedback (and then some!) so as to refine them for presentation in an entire other sphere (Christian). He can help bring them here for further insights..
“Substitute “truth” for “God” and I think we’re all in agreement here.”
Works for me (you may be surprised to hear).
Even as a Brit, I have to admit that your G.W. had good taste in heroes;
“Cincinattus – a citizen soldier who retired to his farm after the necessary war was over”
I can’t see any modern politicians anywhere in the world who can put the power aside like this. These days they’re all pustulant whores for power. Without any idea how to wield it for the public good.
That was beautiful, man.
So you can’t imagine that world. Unfortunately you don’t have to imagine it. It’s right outside your door. I for one, am not the slightest bit surprised by what has happened, not even the lack of media coverage, or the wikipedia deleting his page.
It is a non issue because he is a man for one, and a father for two….and one that paid child support and was behind. I have no doubt, the most feminists……would literally burn all men to death for the slightest non deference to their agenda.
There is one good thing that might come from this….and the media silence……and that is…..to make men realise that the system..and women in general……do not give a fuck about you as a man……you’re only value is what they can rip you off for. His crime is that escaped their clutches. Nobody can take anything off him anymore. The State will have to cough up to support in his place. That is all they care about.
Learn a lesson from this guys…we are not going to get anything from harming ourselves….killing ourselves……they only care about the harm done to them. In Mr Ball’s case…..he won’t be paying anymore.
If you want to harm them…..then don’t pay….refuse….make them put you in jail…..and feed and cloth you….you’ll cost them more alive then dead
Totally epic.
” I for one, am not the slightest bit surprised by what has happened, not even the lack of media coverage, or the wikipedia deleting his page.”
Cos it is not surprising at all. Cowards licking the foot of their masters, we’ve seen it thousand times in history books.
From today i will boycott wikipedia.
Don’t, lol. You guys are blowing this Wikipedia thing out of proportion. I even agree with this seemingly pro-male blog (first post I’ve read), but I also edit Wikipedia sometimes. They just have a really high standard of what is allowed to be added. It needs to be heavily sourced, and significant. If nobody is reporting on this, like the blog claims, then to Wikipedia it’s not relevant or important to add. It’s not a personal attack on anyone.
@Evyn
Wikipedia’s standards for inclusion relevant to your comment are “verifiability and neutrality”. Your phrase “heavily sourced” is subjective depending on the interpretation of the word “heavily”.
Your implied definition of ‘significant” is also defective. “significant” is not a measure of what the advertising driven mainstream media selects for inclusion. The self immolation if a dispossessed father is significant with or without the approval of MSNBC or CNN.
By your claimed measure, Paris Hilton is a significant actor on the stage of human events – obviously she’s much more relevant to all our lives than a father brutalized by the family courts to the point he lit himself on fire. How can we tell Hilton is so important? she’s featured regularly on “serious” news outlets like CNN, MSNBC and so on.
Seriously? Fucking hell.
Finally, you misrepresent the objection to Thomas Ball’s deletion from Wikipedia – we all know its not personal against Thomas Ball. He’s dead and cannot be further harmed. It’s the unspoken consent of both the mainstream media, and individuals such as Wikipedia editors that the political protest by suicide of a man has no relevance – while there are thousands of other men similarly abused by a family court system which is defective by design. Having read Mr Ball’s last writing, I know there is nothing “rambling” about it – but rambling is the incorrect synonym for “long” used to discredit him, to silence him and to justify in everybody’s minds that a self extinguishment by fire of a man doesn’t represent a deep crack in the foundation of lies in our male-disposable society. But keep denying Evyn, see how much longer that works.
Ok, so that’s their little rules and writing policy. I get it. But what about their moral obligations? Is their publishing manifesto not a living document like our Constitution? Why should their rules that enable censorship targeting the American people be more rigid than the US Constitution?
Go look at the entry for “autofellatio” and come back here and say that again. Spare me.
Most Wikipedia editors are stupid sheep following their politically correct masters. If Wikipedia was about reporting the truth they wouldn’t censor shit just because the media blacks it out.
Won’t wash as an argument.
Try looking up ethics / honour / character
not in wikipedia, that clear…
The guy died as a protest, in a horrific manner, and you lot think that it can be swept under the rug?
As has been said hereabouts, a woman doing the same thing for the right to kill babies (and I am NOT a fundamentalist about this) would be centrefold.
wikipedia is acting like a shameful, amoral cunt about this, and you fucking know it
He worded it wrong but I’m afraid he’s right. I’ve done editing for wiki and I know the delete entries all the time if they’re about events that haven’t gotten exposure.
You might think it’s wrong that wikipedias guidelines are based on only allowing what is already famous, but thats how it works. Wikipedia was never designed to be about important stuff, only about famous/sought after cases/people.
So this editor didn’t single this case out, in fact it followed the common pattern for a case that the media didn’t report on. Wikipedia only mirrors the media when it comes to persons and cases. Blame the media.
Anything that has been mentioned on Drudge, and multiple times on Instapundit, has “gotten exposure”.
But I forget, the vast majority of editors on Wikipedia are Leftists, so I guess the editor may well have missed what millions have seen.
Evyn,
Click on the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBvSg9oeM8k
I couldn’t stop laughing.
So, are you a homo, or what? I hate the system, not women. Just like in the case of another set of manipulated people, I hate the system, not blacks.
[Note from admin]
Dear xxxx,
Your comment has its place here as an example that free speech is also extended to the terminally stupid. If the charge of being a “homo” (middle school much?) is supposed to be an insult, it fails in this place.
I don’t hate women, either, or blacks or soccer fans. But I do hate ignorant turds like you.
Oh, but it’s fine to post a video of women being corralled into a barbershop, and slaughtered like animals. Heaven forbid if I offend a gay. Meanwhile the poster says the video is hilaaaaaarious. I’m glad the atmosphere here is so healthy for different viewpoints. I casually asked the man if that was his orientation, because I thought asking if he frequently fantasized about killing women might make me seem a little too much like a Fed. Admin makes it sound like he was the one posting or something.
I do appreciate that you did not censor my comment, for whatever that is worth. Speaking as a fellow man, and someone who fully appreciates the sacrifice of Thomas Ball.
The very fact you thought sexual orientation of issue shines a very bright light on the dimness of yourself.
Not your fault you being like that…
I mean: ‘…not that there’s anything wrong with it’.
I fantasize about women, but not killing them there tough guy. Try posting that sadistic link on your social networking page and see how many dates you get. It’s the type of video that I would think a man who hates women so much that he turned to other women would post. Therefore the homo comment. I’m starting to think that’s the overwhelming consensus, here, right? Pat your bodyfriend on the ass for me.
Is there anyone in a sphere of influence anywhere that knows of this and chooses not to stand by and do nothing ?
There just has to be good people in the right places out there. We must find them and talk with them – show them another way because this is just so terrible and so real.
Would Mr Ball urge us to ?
Encourage Mel Gibson to make a movie?
Can someone tell me why women who don’t work to support their kids aren’t sent to jail. Lets face it, any woman who has custody of her kids and does not work, is not supporting her kids. She gets the money from the State, the ex, etc.
Why don’t we have a law that puts people in prison who don’t financially support their kids……why is it only non custodial fathers. I think we all know the answer to that.
*Stands and applauds*
Fuckin A
These parasites can leech men dry of every last ounce of blood, but the womyn aren’t held to the same standard.
I say at the very least child support should be split down the middle with the custodial parent having to earn half and the non-custodial parent the other half.
That’s a start.
This story reminds me very much of one Joe Stack who a few years back after many years of harassment from the IRS who seized bank accounts, business assets, personal property from tax liens that Joe Stack & his accountants & lawyers asserted were illegal as all deductions were permitted under the Tax Code, took his single engine airplane & flew it into the IRS building in Austin Texas killing himself instantly.
His last statement was made public & resembled & recounted an experience very similar to Mr. Ball’s. He was driven to that point by a corrupt, uncaring, heartless system who cared more about numbers on a piece of paper & computer screen than human life.
Just like Mr. Ball, Mr. Stack’s story was censored. However, he did receive a day or two of national attention in a desperate attempt by the system to point him as some kind of nut & domestic terrorist. When the poles came out & it was definitively that the public overwhelmingly 66%+ sympathized with Mr. Stack & agreed with his actions, the story never broad cast again-complete media black out.
The control system realizes that they can not allow the story of Mr. Ball to get out b/c every person that still has a heart & soul in this country will sympathize with him & it will bring tremendous push to reform the system to be more just. That is not in the control systems best interests.
The last thing that needs to be said is that a vegetable farmer in like Egypt or Tunisia after having his cart overturned for not having a license to sell from the road side burnt himself & that started the overthrown of numerous government in the Middle East & North Africa. The US government realizes that their approval numbers are at all time historical lows & that might well be enough to spark a revolution & regime change in the USA. Government officials are not stupid when it comes to threats against their power-make no mistake.
The fruit vendor started the Arab Spring, but the internet propogated and organized it quickly through social media.
Connectivity of disparate like-minds is what will “break” the mass consciousness. That’s what we’re doing here right now. Unfortunately feminist power in the west is much deeper and broader than any Middle East government.
And then they deleted his wikipedia entry. I wonder why. Oh no, no, I don’t.
Joe Stack has a Wikipedia entry.
Too fucking right. Well put, well put.
Sorry but you are wrong to blame Wikipedia admins here.
The way Wikipedia works is that there has to be significant media or academic coverage of an issue for it to become notable. Therefore if the media engages in censorship then Wikipedia inevitably ends up doing the same. If the media had covered this properly then it wouldn’t be possible to delete the Wikipedia article
This highlights exactly why we need more male studies academics. If people could start publishing papers referencing such suicides then a Wikipedia article would be permitted.
Whilst we have a feminist biased media and feminist controlled academia then Wikipedia will always be similarly biased.
I’d encourage people to write as much as possible about MRA issues on Wikipedia, but you can only cover issues where there are significant numbers of existing sources.
Computer games, books, stories, and tv shows get significant media or academic coverage? What celebrities wore yesterday gets significant media coverage? What 1-time character did what in which episode?
Because they’ve got wikipediea entries and nobody is deleting them.
If the wikipedia admins had a single shred of compassion, credibility, and intelligence in their arses, they would realize that if their rules require the deletion of an article on a man that burned himself to death because the society drove him to do so; THEY’D CHANGE THE FFING RULES!
There is no media coverage of rare and unknown game characters. You go through wikipedia, buddy. I can assure you, you will find trivial pages all over the place that are endorsed.
bollox
It has to do more with persons/cases that get deleted. Wikipedia frowns on entries for people who haven’t gotten media exposure or such.
They will delete persons and cases all the time… Someone used the game characters example, but those are sub-entries for something famous like a game. They don’t seem to have a problem with fictional characters, just humans – because they seem to fear Wikipedia becoming a propagandizing platform.
You might not like what happened, but to assume it’s because he was a man – or pointing out a male problem – would be disgenuine. No similar event with that little media coverage would have survived the editor cleanup. Focus on the media, not Wikipedia.
They are going to be sorry for how they’ve treated men one day. Like Elam said on the radio, one day men will have had enough of being used as slaves for the state and their ex-wives and so they will drag family court judges out in front of court houses and burn them alive. When I see it happening I’m going to laugh and laugh and laugh.
“…[abused men] will drag family court judges out in front of court houses and burn them alive. When I see it happening I’m going to laugh and laugh and laugh.”
Revenge…Vengeance…”Righting” a wrong with another wrong & laughing about it?
MLK Jr. & Ghandi achieved so much, but they never condoned or celebrated retaliatory violence. If this movement is seen as a push for vengence by bitter men no matter how justified in feeling bitter they are & there is not doubt they have an absolute right to feel bitter about their abuse at the hands of a sexist control system, but if they are perceived as vengeance seeks-the movement loses credibility.
Feminism has lost 100% of its credibility & is collapsing in flames b/c more & more people see everyday it is NOT about equality, respect, fair treatment, etc… but about hatred, revenge for imagined wrongs, vengeance for historical, ancestral, perceived wrongs & no amount of concessions will ever satisfy that all consuming hatred feminists have for ALL males because they are males.
Do not let this movement fall to that level & be discredited. Too many men who ARE suffering at the hands of the sexist control system are depending on reform that will come from this movement if it does not lose its way. It might feel good to laugh & take delight in the violence, but it is going to end up hurting men in the long run in the big picture & that is counter productive to what this movement is all about.
Hi, Beau, I’m just wondering:
Let’s just say the MRM loses its credibility. (It ever had any…?)
Then what? The MRM’s failure means that men will be forced to suffer these injustices for the next 300 years?
This feminist system of governance will keep trucking along for centuries, with women accessing government violence to oppress men?
What do you think will happen if the MRM is discredited, as you so fear?
The men’s right movement is one of the most credible movements in progress today. I never questioned it credibility-I only question its ability to maintain that credibility when embracing a pro-vengeance, revenge, hatred position unto women & members of the control system.
Feminism started some 40-50 years ago. It is blown 100% of its credibility today by anyone that looks at it objectively for 30 seconds. That means it will collapse under the weight of its own hypocrisy in that its foundation of vengeance, revenge, hatred of men is unsupportable because it is not right, just, good, acceptable, moral, ethical, excusable, etc…
Men will have their rights restored, but how long & to what extent will be determined moving forward. The less credibility the movement has the longer reform will take. Then there is the danger that misogyny will simply replace feminism of the oppressive sexual hierarchy as over compensation. Men & women will be “equal” but men will be more equal. Men will be given the upper hand & that will inevitable result in another feminist movement. Wrong-Revolution-Counter Revolution…Wrong,Revolution, Counter Revolution…Push, Pendulum swings to right, Pendulum swings to left…repeat
Any system of government that is biased, corrupt, prejudice under which legal redress & remedy are unavailable to certain members because they are members of this or that group is doomed to failure. It might last a night, a year, a century, or even a millennium. What determines-expedites the collapse is revelation of the injustice, education of the public of the injustice, action by the public to reform or abolish & recreate a more just system.
The greater the injustice, the greater the exposure of that injustice, the greater the eduction about that injustice…the shorter the time it will take to change that injustice.
If the MRAs take pleasure & delight & cheer brutality of women & oppressors in the system the less sympathy, the less compassion, the less concern for the plights of men-fence sitting men, women, & those in the oppressive ranks will have. The less sympathy & compassion the less injustice will be perceived. The less injustice perceived the less urgency for change & reform.
I have listed to feminists complain about men not treating them like ladies. I find it virtually impossible to have sympathy because they are in a movement that hates it when men protect women, when men defend women, when when hold the door-or pull out the chair for women-yet they want to be treated like ladies. The only way I can manage to sympathize with these women is knowing that the feminist religious-like doctrine they have accepted as truth has deceived them & deprived them of the happiness that they could be having, but like religious doctrine-it can not be questioned-b/c to do so would reveal it for it lies, deception, duplicity, & hypocrisy. So, I guess, rather than sympathizing I pity them & how easily they have been deceived & how shut off to reason & logic they have become.
I have no time of day to listen to women cry about getting what they demand b/c at the time they wanted what they demand mentally, but them when they get it they are emotionally unsatisfied. They want it both ways, but it is not possible. This is exactly that I worry about if the MRM is discredited. No one will really listen & who can blame them?
I would not want to listen to a man complain about how they have been mistreated & abused by the system &/or women when I just saw him cheering on mistreatment & abuse to a woman or a member of the system. Hypocrisy-double standards are wrong.
If it is wrong for women & people in the control system to minimize Mr. Ball’s suffering & sacrifice-it is equally wrong for men to minimize & laugh at, cheer, celebrate a similar or comparable suffering of a woman or a member of the system being abused by the very system they are a part of or often works to the advantage of.
I do not want the legitimate voice of reason of “A Voice for Men,” drowned out by the voices of a hundred hypocrites.
Beau, do you believe war criminals deserve punishment?
If so, then why not ex-government criminals for their crimes?
Perhaps I did not clarify.
Criminals, no matter the position, need to be brought to justice.
I know so many attorney, DAs, judges, police, alphabet soup agents, etc… that need to be tried it is disgusting. I never said these whether they hold office or not should not be punished, only that they must be punished within the context of the law & seeing that punishment done by vigilantes-no matter how much one may feel it deserved & justified-& taking pleasure it that is & will always be wrong.
War criminals be punished? I don’t know if there are enough jails in the world to put all the war criminals, but yes, everyone that commits a crime needs punishment within the system as provided by the laws universally agreed upon. No exceptions.
There is no longer any Law. There’s only the Second Set of Books.
The Law is a sham.
Beau Deters,
My question was an attempt to goad you out of your ivory tower, from where you make proclamations about how a heroic MRM can wage a righteous crusade that will be fit for a thousand years of retellings.
You proved to be tough to budge.
Everything you say sounds fine to me, in the ivory tower land of principle. The problem is that none of it is real. It’s all abstractions. You give too much credit to imaginary concepts’ ability to cause change in the world.
You seem fond of invoking MLK, which is convenient because your viewpoint reminds me of one of this quotables:
You talk about an endless swinging of a metaphysical pendulum, as the universe attempts to bring balance between the forces of injustice. You don’t seem concerned with specifically how this happens in reality.
This is why you and Paul have very different perspectives. He’s actually doing things in the real world, a place where your pronouncements about how to conduct a morally flawless MRM have little value.
Feminism will collapse, but not because of any of the New Age-y reasons you listed. It collapses because, in the real world, the mechanics of feminism can’t work.
This is what I was getting at – the fact that feminism will fail without a “credible” (in your eyes, or even the general public’s eyes) MRM.
I get it-I should not talk about principles & cheer like others brutality, unless it is against a man or father.
“You give too much credit to imaginary concepts’ ability to cause change in the world.”
You give not enough. Name a war JUST 1 war that was not waged in the name of some “god” or “freedom” or “justice” or “equality,” or “self defense,” or “national security,” all imaginary concepts. Name a law, a statute, a code, a rule, a regulation that is not supported by some imaginary concept whether it is justice, or protection, or revenue generation, or fairness, or equality. You see it is exceedingly difficult to much of anything that does not cause change or affect the world-charity, peace, love, brotherhood, parenting, and negatively greed, lust, pride, anger, sloth, gluttony, envy, etc…
The pen is mightier than the sword.
“You don’t seem concerned with specifically how this happens in reality.”
It does not matter how something comes about per se. What matters is that it is within the confines of the principles that establish the boundaries & foundation of the movement.
Mr. Elam is doing a very commendable job. Mr. Elam is doing a nearly flawless job of educating about & manifesting the concepts of equality of treatment to men. I critique as only and ever intended to be constructive criticism.
The law of the pendulum predates the accepted date marking the beginning of recorded history in Summeria by a millennium (Vedas). It is not something new, but you could say it is so old it is new as mainstream accepts it as trendy again, but truth is ageless & timeless.
“Feminism will collapse, but not because of any of the New Age-y reasons you listed.”
Feminism will collapse because it is a lie & all lies are a house of cards ready to fall at the slightest wind. Feminism is the proverbial house built on sand. That is why I write here-I want the MRM to be the proverbial house built on rock that will withstand the storms, the rain, & the wind over time.
It is the principles & the concepts that are eternal. The form that they take is temporary & illusory-how they are dressed up is as fleeting as todays fashion.
Thank you so much for the quote from MLK Jr.
I want to finish by saying that rising up against an injustice without principles leads to over correction. That over correction becomes an injustice in itself & will cause another wave to rise up in opposition. This will keep going on & has look at all of recorded history for proof. I want to see a movement succeed, but no over compensate so the pendulum does not swing back. Where men & women can live together rather than just buying time until one rides the pendulum back to being on top when they were underneath.
Thank you also for the cordial response. I can understand how difficult it is to talk to someone who does not accept what you are saying.
“I want the MRM to be the proverbial house built on rock that will withstand the storms, the rain, & the wind over time.”
Then build your own movement, except obviously nobody is following you.
Can you explain to me the logic, the reasoning, the thought process behind resistance to build a movement upon sustainable principles?
because it’s weak and easier to dismiss.
righteous anger (even if it carries over into bad language) is harder to ignore. Anger without violence makes a stronger point than a mangina-like apologetic beg for consideration.
?
I gave you a thumbs down b/c your response makes no sense.
B.D.
good to know, please feel free to fuck off you mangina twat
Principles, tactics and issues are fluid and will change with time depending on the circumstances.
Perhaps you can explain to me the logic and reasoning of building an ineffective movement without followers?
Upon what do these fluids flow upon & what forces direct their movement?
Do you really consider the civil rights movement of MLK Jr. & Ghandi ineffective? Neither had great numbers of followers as a percentage of the total population.
Actually, all of the civil rights movements are excellent models and involved plenty of anger among the participants.
This is real simple Beau. try to grasp it.
The way to properly handle what you personally deem to be unacceptable utterances from MRA’s is to inform the world that they should expect nothing less considering the way men are treated. It is good strategy and it reveals maturity and and a big picture view when you do so.
Coming in to any MRA forum and trying to instruct others on how to express themselves as though you speak for the movement, is divisive, unproductive and myopic in terms of strategy.
All we can hope to accomplish with your way is to end up in a stale mate over how we interpret the statements.
But shaming men for speaking their mind is like shaming the memory of Thomas Ball.
That sort of thing will not work here.
I allow all speech that does not become trolling here, and the only rules I enforce are simple ones against advocating violence (or generally shaming men).
You have some good ideas. Let them speak by your example, not your admonishments. Otherwise you risk coming off like a show pony.
We ride show ponies around here.
“The way to properly handle what you personally deem to be unacceptable utterances from MRA’s is to inform the world that they should expect nothing less considering the way men are treated.”
I have posted more videos than I care to count discussing the day of reckoning that is coming to the control system that abuses people & leaves them without any venue of achieving remedy or seeking legal recourse/redress, along with a message that it does not have to be bloody-if reform is made.
I have grown rather fond of saying 1+1=2 & a totalitarian police state plus absence of legal remedy, recourse, & redress will result in violent bloody revolution.
BUT it need to be said there is a difference in explaining how the day of reckoning is coming, explaining that it is coming, explaining it is inevitable AND cheering, celebrating, laughing at, taking pleasure, delight, satisfaction, etc… in the violence that takes place when that day arrives even if it is an isolated incidence in different states on different dates.
“Coming in to any MRA forum and trying to instruct others on how to express themselves as though you speak for the movement, is divisive, unproductive and myopic in terms of strategy.”
Coming here & telling people that a message mirroring that of the feminists keep this movement on track. Those who come to hate women detract from this movement. Those who come to seek revenge, vengeance, fulfill a vendetta detract from this movement. Those who complain about the double standards & special treatment women receive, only to turn around & perform their own double standards & then when rebuked demand special treatment detract from this movement.
When superior principles are held-there is no reasonable, no logical, no rationale argument that may be made to refute. If women/feminists demand equality than they should be eligible to be drafted, perform & be graded upon the same physical standards as men (police-fire-military), pay child support, alimony to the man, & the legal bills if the situation dictates, etc…
These statements acknowledge that women should be treated equal, BUT they should be treated equal. They maintain the principle of equality of treatment & can not be refuted logically as any attempt to refute would demand special treatment & exemptions based upon differences in sex & strength. This leads to an absurdity-I want to be treated equally, but I do not want to be held to the same standard in being treated equally. The argument is outed as a demand for the recognition & acceptance of a double standard. Hypocrisy is a fallacious argument to use to support an untenable position.
This is exactly why holding true to high principles will unite-those that detract & embrace the indefensible are the one who create the division, unproductively, & myopathy.
“All we can hope to accomplish with your way is to end up in a stale mate over how we interpret the statements.”
The revolutions that have happened, are in the process of happening, & will happen in the Middle East & North Africa were swift, just, & those seeking to topple the corrupt governments used as near to zero violence as possible all while maintaining high principles & operating within their confines. The movement was based on superior principles, garnered popular support, & result in immense societal change. These were not stalemates. The movement to restore men’s rights will not be won overnight. First the minds of the people need to be won, but that happen through education-information dissemination. It will then be assessed, debated, & considered. People then will decide yes/no. If the arguments like the ones above are attempted to be made-it requires virtually no intelligence to see it as BS or refutable.
“But shaming men for speaking their mind is like shaming the memory of Thomas Ball.”
This is a false analogy, sorry. I also do not accept the premise that I was shaming. I said it is unacceptable, undermines the movement, & is unproductive. Finally, in his 15 page last statement-I do not recall Mr. Ball cherishing brutality directed at women. I also do not recall any mention of taking pleasure or delight in the violence he called for to be taken against the control system. I do not support his call for violence and I do not support people expressing the pleasure they take in seeing brutality directed at women-therefore your analogy is fallacious.
This movement is too import to shoot itself in its foot by making, supporting, & defending comments like this. There is no need to hand detractors ammunition to use against this movement-you make their job to discredit easy. On principle the movement can not be refuted, but using the comments the movement can be discredited.
Simple fact: violence is neither inherently wrong nor useless.
If you win, the history books call you freedom-fighters – fighting bravely for justice.
only the losers get call terrorists.
I don’t see the harm in getting people to look toward repercussions and just-desserts – they might just act a little better now…many belief systems are based on this kind of thinking. Clearly they were tapping into a psychology that worked on a lot of people.
It’s not like family courts are run by heroic figures…if they were they’d be open to scrutiny. The reason that they’re so secretive is that they are hiding their corrupt ‘morality’, the fucking cowards
There is no harm in getting people to look toward repercussions & just dessert.
There is harm in getting people to look forward to them.
Taking pleasure in the brutality directed at another creates a psychopathic &/or sociopathic society capable of condoning-if not worshiping-atrocities at & up to the international level. Nazi Germany & USA are the 2 most recent & well known examples I can come up.
“Taking pleasure in the brutality directed at another creates a psychopathic &/or sociopathic society capable of condoning-if not worshiping-atrocities at & up to the international level. Nazi Germany & USA are the 2 most recent & well known examples I can come up.”
If you’d kindly point me to where I suggested that? Or just feel free to fuc, leave? taking your strawman with you…
If you would kindly point to where I stated that you suggested that? Or do you just feel like putting words that I never said in my mouth?
I agreed with your point fully & gave the 1 thumbs up you have on the comment.
Taking pleasure in the brutality directed at another creates a psychopathic &/or sociopathic society capable of condoning-if not worshiping-atrocities at & up to the international level.
Sounds like “justice” to me. I’ve got no problem with it.
Can you explain to me when violence as opposed to self defense or defense of the weaker or punishment after trial by jury-a good, or justified, or commendable act-not wrong?
Anything that can cause an effect is useful if the definition of useful is stretched sufficiently far.
People weren’t afraid of MLK. They were afraid of Stokey Carmichael and the black panthers. This “Let’s play nice by having a mutual masturbation fest” is bullshit.
The militancy is the way to go as it is proving to be successful.
It all depends on the context within which a ‘protester’ ‘protests’: Imagine the results if MLK & Gandhi had been females ‘protesting’ within a Taliban-run society…how far would their efforts have gotten them? Oh, yeah, knee-deep in dirt with rocks coming at their heads.
And that whole concept of doing only what’s “within the law” also ‘depends’ on: who wrote ‘the law’ and what the purpose of ‘the law’ was.
A taliban society wouldn’t be slaves to the feminists so it doesn’t sound that bad.
I don’t concern myself with women,they’ve taken that from me.
Related:
http://www.4shared.com/audio/YoHvv-SF/Jeff_Buckley_-_The_Sky_Is_A_La.html
The truth’s like the Sun. Just because you don’t always see it, it doesn’t change the realities that it’s there and it will come out regardless of how you feel about it.
The latest follow-up from the local news rag The Sentinel, referenced Thomas Ball in the context of how tragic it is when people commit suicide.
The comments, from local MRA’s, (that don’t even know what an MRA is) skewered the reporter and the paper for ignoring the fact he was protesting fathers rights. Many of these commenters were fathers themselves who went through that same family court system.
If the news media is not feminist themselves, they’re scared shitless of feminists. They’re scared shitless of a feminist uproar over appearing to favor the male side of the story. And when feminist groups mount press releases and other public activity they stir up ALL women. The same women that buy from the advertisers that pay the bills for the news media to thrive.
This is why newsroom editors across the land conveniently ignore the grievances of men. Men have no power as a group, they don’t complain and they don’t boycott the producers of consumer goods. This is what women do, and you better not piss them off or you’ll be booted out of there faster than you can say “Larry Summers”.
even if men, as a whole, boycotted the economy…that would be about, what? ~25% of of the money they get? They would still cater to the females and not care. Women control the media partly because they control the spending.
Yes and Fortune 500 consumer companies invest millions of dollars to research what demographic has the money and spends it. It’s not feminist ideology that drives capitalism. It’s targeting the market that gives the biggest bang for your advertising buck.
A lot of that control is because men let them spend the family budget.
Get men to say, we will not be eating at ‘X’ because of their no-single-man policy, things would fucking change.
When men take more interest in these issues we’ll see some changes. I’m not talking about dominating every issue, just having an opinion and voicing it convincingly.
Last night I was so angry and sad that I could not function. The story of Thomas Ball taught me what the word “dispossession” really means. The systematic effort to marginalize him both in life and in death left me speechless.
This is a new day, and we cannot let the shock of this travesty derail our will or our fight. We MUST deal with the facts, and move on. So, here are the facts, as I see them.
PROBLEM FACT 1) In an EXREMELY unusual move, the editor deleted Ball’s article before the end of the 7 day process. He then gave an incoherent justification for the decision to prematurely end debate:
“I know it’s only been five and a half days instead of the usual seven. However, there’s reason for an early close;
I believe community consensus is clear …
My sympathies go out to the family …
This deletion does not mean that a minority viewpoint is being suppressed …
The option does exist to re-create this article at a later …”
Question: Which part of this tripe actually addresses the EARLY deletion decision? What does consensus (reached in 3 hours), family sympathy, the possibility to re-submit, and a baseless claim of “no censorship” have to do with A RUSH TO JUDGEMENT? What was the “harm” in allowing time for a response?
PROBLEM FACT 2) All 15 justifications for “delete” were made in a short 3 hour period on June 23, between at 5:12PM and 8:41PM. The page was deleted at 8:52PM, two days before the expiration of the 7 day discussion period (and only 3 hours after the beginning of the actual debate). In effect, this means that all 15 debate justifications were made without the possibility of any rebuttal. I call this “death by lightning”.
3) In an extremely unusual move, many senior wiki editors used personal attacks and ad-hominem defamation in their justifications. Any experienced wikipedia editor will recognize the departure from neutral language in every comment, all of which were made by administration-level wiki editors during the three hour “death by lightning” event:
Paul B, 17:21, 23 June 2011 : “If the “men’s rights” movement succeed in making him a significant ‘martyr’ for their cause …”
– A senior wikipedia editor mocks the men’s rights movement, suggests that the Tom Ball connection to men’s rights is a fabrication, and disparages his actions all in the same sentence. To increase the depth of his disparaging insults, he places “men’s rights” and “martyr” in quotes.
Orlady, 18:24, 23 June: “Most of the sources cited in the article are … opinionated blogs. From the few reliable sources, I conclude that this guy’s life was pretty much of a mess and he committed suicide, choosing a highly visible method and leaving a long rambling note. That’s all. The fact that men’s rights bloggers have decided to reinvent him as a men’s rights activist who died for their cause does not make it true, and it does not make the details of his biography notable.”
– Incredibly, a senior wikipedia editor nominates herself as jury, judge, and executioner for Tom Ball, for Tom Ball’s mental sanity, for the validity of Tom Ball’s ideology, and for the value of the MRM. She then decides that Ball was not even an MRA, but just a nut. She reaches all these startling insights based on nothing but the vacuum between her ears.
AndyTheGrump 19:53, 23 June 2011: “Wikipedia is not a platform for the promotion of ‘men’s rights’, or for any other political cause – and doubly so when the apparent suicide of a disturbed person is being exploited for that cause.”
– Another senior wikipedia editor concludes that Ball and his ideas were “disturbed”, and that the MRM is exploiting (!?!?) Mr. Ball. You can’t make this up.
Alan the Roving Ambassador 17:12, 23 June 2011: “Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid.”
– I guess this “neutral” editor’s ideology colours his thinking — if wikipedia mentions an event that counters political correctness, it would be yellow journalism.
I put wikipedia in the same category as the lamestream media long before this happened.
Its best to go anywhere else for info.
Note that there were objective criticisms of the Ball wiki page, at least on the surface. Several editors addressed the central issue of “relevance”, citing the wiki rule for a notable event (WP:EVENT). Here are some examples:
SabreBD 17:48, 23 June: “Simply too soon to assess the significance of the event and the danger that Wikipedia is being used as a site for memorialization. Its an understandable impulse, but not the role of an encyclopedia.”
- Maybe Sabre is right, maybe wrong — but at least he addresses the core issue of “did something notable happen”, instead of attacking the credibility of the MRM or Ball himself. While I disagree with Sabre, he makes an argument within the wikipedia guidelines.
Wildthing61476 18:01, 23 June 2011: “WP:ONEEVENT and WP:NOTNEWS applies here. I will say this however I agree with Freshacconci’s comments above, this could be rewritten if it were to receive more, and lasting coverage, and also have some sort of imapct. Right now as it stands it doesn’t. ”
- Again, I disagree with Wildthing61476, but at least this editor avoided personal attacks and ad-hominem remarks. He stuck to the issue of newsworthiness.
SimHasteur 18:32, 23 June 2011: “Simply too soon to see how this is going to stick in the history. Not opposed when more verifyiable and reliable sources write about it. ”
- Again, stuck to the issue, no personal insults.
Yes, if Western males were an ethnic group in some third world country a UN resolution would be issued on their behalf condemning their treatment and the violation of their civil rights. The country in question would probably be economically boycotted by the world and the US may even send in a military response. But we have to remember this oppressed social class is the first one in history that has the political power, the vote and to a great extent the monetary clout to free themselves. So why don’t we use it?
A lot of men see other men as competition so they will sell them out whenever possible. Harnessing good women and treating them respectfully – and we all have to remember, there are many, many good women out there – is critical.
The problem with women is that they generally have a bias towards women.
I agree there are SOME good women out there, but where are the “many, many, many”? Can you point them out for me, I can’t find them.
There are studies that show that both men and women favor women over men…and women will rarely “Sell out” their “sisters” for men.
I am starting to catch the drift here that is forum dedicated to enshrine masculine victimization, hatred of women, contempt at any sort or form of reconciliation or discussion of sustainable principles, and scorn for anyone that does not chest thump for male pride or attack women in a manner identical to but reversed what they decry the woman collective for doing.
I have come to believe that rational calls to respect women until they have proven otherwise, or in anyway treat them as humans until they prove otherwise is against some rule.
It really is sad to see so many men do what they decry as foul when it is done to them by woman. Where I come from there are two words to describe this sort of behavior-Hypocritical & Petulant.
It really is sad-this movement has a very just cause, but for the lack of maturity & intellectual honesty.
There are many female supporters at AFfM.
It’s time for you to fuck off now Beau.
Is it time for you to grow up?
Is it time for you to stop acting like a little kid?
Is it time for you to stop protecting & defending hypocrisy & petulant behavior.
Why are there posts containing hypocrisy & childish attacks against women.
How are the sexes ever going to get along-reconcile when neither side will forgive & continue to do unto others what done unto them is an outrage and think it is fine?
Is any one here grown up enough to stop acting like a spoiled little kid, & reach out to the other sex?
Feminsm failed b/c it was based on lies. Feminism also failed because it had no goal-no reconciliation point & kept driving and any movement without an endpoint (mission creep) is doomed to fail. It lacked that that end point b/c attacking men become its goal. Feminism has become completely consumed by its hatred of men & it is the end & the means of itself, but unsustainable.
This same hatred is taking shape here.
Go ahead and deny it.
Go ahead & give me a thumbs down.
That is the truth & if the MRM follows in the feminist footsteps in the not to very distant future it will collapse for the same reasons.
But why worry about that-you are not concerned about sustainable principles to build the rock foundation & don’t let small things like the longevity & lifetime of this MRM get in the way of hating women & acting a hypocrite.
I am sorry you don’t get it.
How dare you accuse me of such things, fuck you and get lost.
Clearly I must have missed the mark b/c cussing & telling me to go away is a mature grown up behavior?
Clearly I must have also missed the mark on hypocrisy in that I am wrong to express moral outrage, but well for you it is permissibly?
Come on man let’s start conversing like adults & drop the cussing & hypocrisy & I will stop setting the barbs-I am mature enough that I will admit baiting-& have a mature intellectually honest conversation.
Is that too much to ask?
I didn’t insult you at all or throw any baseless accusations as you just did.
I’m done with you, you are an intellectual cripple incapable of integrity or adult conversation.
I think Beau there are elements to the division between men and women that are worth considering.
Many here agree that “women” have become chattel of the state.
Many here also agree that female agency is used by the state to disenfranchise men socially.
Many here agree that that disenfranchisement is applied by the violence of the state.
Many here agree that laws used by the state, which in most cases are applied as “policy” not justice can only be applied in the proximity of a female.
Many here agree that feminism is an unethical and unjust vehicle by which the state imposes a totalitarian fascism.
Many here agree that feminism is a lie to further the interests of that state.
Many here agree that feminism no longer has anything to do with women, or justice, or democracy, or children, or equality, or a future that includes them.
Many here agree that the concept of a pendulum swinging for justice is an abhorrent mechanism of bullshit designed to pacify what can no longer be pacified.
Many here know that the next THOMAS BALL may not be so passive as to self immolate.
You cannot address or discuss conciliation when one side threatens unjust violence by proxy, policy, police action, pepper spray, courts, restraining orders, seizure, isolation, vilification, condemnation, propaganda and lies.
Feminism is nothing more than a totalitarian police state, I personally have nothing to discuss with that state.
I will end here before I say what I really think which may be somewhat less polite.
I agree with everything that you say up to:
“Many here agree that the concept of a pendulum swinging for justice is an abhorrent mechanism of bullshit designed to pacify what can no longer be pacified.”
I don’t really understand what you mean.
“Feminism is nothing more than a totalitarian police state, I personally have nothing to discuss with that state.”
I see Feminism not as a totalitarian police state, but a means to that end-the creation-or rather the cover for the creation of a totalitarian police state.
I disagree vehemently with:
“You cannot address or discuss conciliation when one side threatens unjust violence by proxy, policy, police action, pepper spray, courts, restraining orders, seizure, isolation, vilification, condemnation, propaganda and lies.”
It is only & precisely by reconciliation & avoidance of conflict that the threat of violence at the hands of the state is avoided.
Anyone that spends a good month studying psychology, body language, fascial expression, mannerism, gestures, & voice tone, rate, & inflection can learn the skills to screen women. I have never met a woman that could mask who she really was by the end of the first date.
The first step to no conflict is to stay away from unstable & disturbed women. I never meet many stable women in bars & clubs & parties-tailoring were you meet women can help eliminate crossing path with the crazy ones.
I lost count of the women I told that there is the door & we will be just friends when she started acting crazy. Ending a relationship before it deteriorates is another way to avoid the conflict that will lead to her calling upon the state.
If you don’t call the state & she does not unless you are acting crazy in public or driving crazy police will leave you alone & you will not have the state stepping in making your life hell.
Notice I did not say you give her what you want, or give in to her demands, or tolerate he BS-you send her away & avoid her until she finds a new host to parasite off.
I have had some relationship end not so nicely. I have never had the cops or any state involvement in my life as a result of women I dated because I treated them fairly, respectfully, but firmly. I did not tolerate the BS & made that clear on the 1st date carefully gaging her reaction. Many women failed when I say the cute googly eyes turn into daggers & I never bothered with a follow up date.
If men take some of these steps & others they can minimize the risk of coming into conflict that will draw state involvement in their life.
It is about pre-emption & never allowing things to get out of control-ending things including the date when things are going sour. Losing an opportunity to work things out with a girl that you are in conflict with early on to me at least is not worth losing money, freedom, & job opportunities in the future.
Taking a little bit of responsibility in the decision making process can prevent a great deal of suffering at the hands of the system.
The slut walk started from a peace officer telling girls that it would be responsible & reduce their chance of being raped if they chose to dress more conservatively.
I say, if men chose the women they let into their lives more carefully & screen them vigorously before spending time in private with them, they can avoid being raped by the system.
These are but a few of the ways you can address & discuss conciliation when one side is totally unreasonable.
I don’t have anything to say to the state & would what I could to say as little as possible to the state to minimize its awareness of my existence. I would not bother addressing much of anything with the state either.
@Beau
You underestimate the capabilities of discernment amongst the participants here.
I would guess that your probably around 30, an idealist, with feminine attributes, versed in shaming and intellectual dishonesty. Of the sort the supports assigned responsibility and accountability. If your a man, you probably owe money to your mother, who likely is not happy with your father, but happier with you. You would probably fare better at the men’s academy or what ever it’s called, but don’t like it because your visibility is less pronounced. Your a hero in waiting.
Personally when it comes to the violence displayed in the video, it represents the monster eating itself, the enemy beating itself up, imploding, and as a man I wasn’t hurt. If that’s not satirical entertainment, I don’t know what is.
You hit on my age.
The violence in the video is entertainment satirical or otherwise?
Violence is not entertainment violence is an abomination and perversion of action that could have been help, comfort, aide, or something like a handshake.
Violence is not entertainment, nor the answer. Violence will only beget violence until the cycle is stopped.
Interesting turn of phrase
I “hit” on your age.
Your use of violent description, suggests that your self righteousness awaits appropriate opportunity for accusation.
I beg to differ, violence is the underlying force of existence.
As to it being entertainment, well turn on your TV. There are millions out there that see things differently. Particularly when violence is disproportionally carried out against men.
The entertainment lies in the breach of ethical specification and the expectation of it’s adherence, privilege.
The only drift you are catching is the smell of your own flatulent misinterpretation.
You didn’t support a single thing you said. Where respect is concerned, the same rule applies to you as it does to anyone else, including women.
If you want respect, fucking earn it. And you can’t do that with this kind of bullshit. Why? Because you are demonstrating a lack of the very maturity and intellectual honesty that you are hypocritically bemoaning.
I will take one point you made, and dismember it for your consideration. Let’s see if you have the brains and the mettle to handle it effectively.
Now, dude, prove there is even a morsel of truth in what you said. Skip the hyperbole and circuitous doublespeak and prove it.
When you are done failing, I will point you to several of the women that post here that have earned respect through being a hell of a lot more intellectually honest than you are.
Waiting.
I will respond before I go to bed tonight.
I hardly accept that you are a credible judge of intellectual honesty attempting to hold irreconcilable positions:
You wrote this at:
http://avoiceformen.com/2011/06/21/watch-think-learn-act/
to me as a response to your post.
What do you expect of men who have histories of abuse by the system while women enjoy general immunity?
…
I would never support the use of violence, but I tell you right now that hearing a woman say “you can’t do this to a girl” makes me sympathize totally with those that mock and enjoy her pain.
——
You “do not support the use of violence but you can sympathize totally with those that mock and enjoy her pain[?]”
You do not support the use of violence, but you will support those that do?
You do not support the use of violence but you will defend those that do?
You do not support the use of violence but you will protect & stick up for those that do?
So which is it? Do you support the use of violence or not?
It is not intellectually honest to support the use of violence by proxy & proclaim you do not support the use of violence & that is exactly what you did here in supporting, protecting, defending, & sticking up for those that do.
And for novelty’s sake could you explain why you think pointing out a woman or women as opposed to a man or men would affect me in some kind of way? I really am captivated that you would think that I would be so insecure as to think playing “the girl is better than you card” would affect me.
I think Paul is wasting too much time on you.
I don’t support the use of violence but I certainly understand how some men take some glee in seeing a woman subjected to the same police brutality by proxy that has been perpetrated against men. I find it a bit disturbing but it doesn’t stop me from supporting these men or make me assume that they are violent.
When she further proclaimed her pussy pass, that was just ironic.
It’s too bad that your depth of understanding is so shallow and superficial that you can’t look past political correctness. Begone now, you’re a waste of time. If you can do better then do it.
Beau is part of the ‘third gender’ that exists in the West. Having lost hope of ever being loved by a woman, he is settling for receiving ‘thank yous’ from feminists. Of course, women have men who suck up to them like this.
Pickup artists want to have sex with women.
Women want to have sex with pickup artists.
Beau Deters gets to pay the bills.
Everybody wins!!
Beau, if your not outraged at outrageous injustice, then just fuck off, and you’ll get exactly what you deserve from the feminazis.
Perhaps you need to read my other posts & those on the page:
http://avoiceformen.com/2011/06/21/watch-think-learn-act/
I talk extensively about no injustice being appropriate. Please pay particular attention to the quote I have typed from Martin Luther King Jr. “An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere.”
Perhaps it would be better if you read my posts before you assumed that I did not say something & then tell me to f-off & that I deserve what I get from feminazis?
I will take one point you made, and dismember it for your consideration. Let’s see if you have the brains and the mettle to handle it effectively.
I have come to believe that rational calls to respect women until they have proven otherwise, or in anyway treat them as humans until they prove otherwise is against some rule.
Now, dude, prove there is even a morsel of truth in what you said. Skip the hyperbole and circuitous doublespeak and prove it.
______________________________________________
Here is the list I have assembeled in which multiple posts were made treating the women in the video commented on yesterday as anything but human. Please do not consider this a conclusive list taken even from the following article you posted yesterday. I am not going to bother going any further in explaining myself to you & had you read & remembered the response you would not need to re-request this information
Jonathan Mann
June 21st, 2011 – 19:43
Its true. We could crush them like they were insects, but we need to reach a lot more disenfranchised men first. We’ll do it though, this movement grows constantly. In the end, the feminists will be truly sorry.
Jean Valjean
June 21st, 2011 – 22:02
I like how the women got a taste of true equality from the police state they demanded be created.
Jean Valjean
June 22nd, 2011 – 00:28
Totally! You can hear the entitlement in her voice. “I’m a woman. You are never supposed to touch me because I’m above you pig!”
They put those women in that video to raise people’s ire.
It didn’t work on me. In fact I thought the first part was supposed to be a comedy. I was laughing my ass off. Honestly, some of those women had it coming. The cops were pretty patient with them but there is a limit to patience and eventually you have to force compliance
Hayden
June 22nd, 2011 – 00:21
Dear little video princesses, Welcome to the reality that men exist in from birth. Running your damn mouth thinking that your pussy provides a force field around you regardless of your criminal behavior has provided me with a large measure of viewing pleasure. If we are to continue with the phoney premise that women are equal to men while letting them cherry pick societal privilege and destoying men let them get their asses beat and bleed. However, hold on til I am back with my popcorn and cold beer.
Hayden
June 22nd, 2011 – 00:37
I watched this again and saw a few men taking a beating. I have sympathy for them. The feminists just had to have this big old welfare police state. Congrats bitches. Your plan came to fruition.
I just read an email from Glen Sacks organization where some privileged princess cites another study about women resenting men. Darlings, the feeling is mutual. I have absolutely had enough.
Jean Valjean
June 22nd, 2011 – 12:12
I won’t give you a thumbs down for saying that because you are entitled to your beliefs and I respect that.
However, when you’ve suffered enough abuse and exploitation at the hands of women you may begin to relish when true equality is visited upon them.
Jean Valjean
June 22nd, 2011 – 12:21
Spoken like a true white knight.
I bear no shame for taking pleasure in the torture of my oppressors. I have the right to feel what I want to feel and I’ll not be shamed or labeled or have my humanity downgraded by anyone especially a closet white knight.
Each of those women felt entitled to rule over the police state that they created. I have every right to enjoy the irony of their reality check.
Eincrou
June 22nd, 2011 – 11:46
Some MRAs like to take seriously the bogus ‘equality’ political device feminists use, and want to really follow through with it. That can only mean worse treatment for privileged women, and they see this video in that light.
Paul Elam
June 23rd, 2011 – 01:32
I would never support the use of violence, but I tell you right now that hearing a woman say “you can’t do this to a girl” makes me sympathize totally with those that mock and enjoy her pain.
Now about those several women that have more intellectual honesty than me?
Mr. Elam you have a good movement going here, but if you let it become by way of not policing & encouraging the policing of others when they practice victim 1 ups-manship, spew venom, hatred, & express a burning desire for vengence, revenge, & declare a vendetta against women-if you allow this movement to mirror all that is wrong, dishonest, & hypocritical in feminism-this movement will crash just the same way. Too many men are suffering at the hands of the control system for this movement to implode before it gets off the ground & really takes off.
The above selection could be used by feminists & feminist sympathizers to inflict extreme damage to the legitimacy & credibility of this movement-feminism is completely discredited, but they are still able to wield considerable political power & do considerable damage to against & to this movement. Tell me honestly how close to hate speech are a few of the posts above? Do you think it would be all that difficult to get a website spewing these type of posts under cyber bullying or hate speech/incitement with a court system that already has them as a victim. I am not threatening anything-I want to see this movement really take off & restore equality, but I am telling you there is acceptable dialog & then there is dialog that gets websites domains seized by DHS. I speak from reading many articles on websites that have had their domains seized. There are protected classes-Semites, Children, Lesbians-Bisexual-Transgenders-Homosexuals, & abused women.
Go ahead and rail against feminist & a corrupt control system, but don’t cross that line. Don’t let others cross that line-don’t let it become acceptable to cross that line-police your own.
If we could just get police to police the police the control system would lose a great deal of its teeth without a drop of blood being shed, but wanting that to happen while refusing to police your own?
Police do not use agent provocateurs for nothing. They are able to draw those not acting out illegally to do so & then the crack down comes that is what I am trying to say.
The government creates the problem, waits for the negative public reaction, & then heroically steps in at the last minute when seemingly all hope is lost to offer the solution having it already drawn up & waiting, & expands it power, expands it jurisdiction, expands it control & sphere of influence.
Like or hate Alex Jones he had the FBI visit his office to investigate posts making life threats against police, judges, & the president. He was threatened with having his business shut down. These boards are monitored & all it takes is for a couple of nuts to sink the whole ship. That is why I say what is said must be policed. I do not want to see this movement shut down.
Agent provocateurs in spain were exposed when they & no members of the crowd started smashing windows & acting all crazy-they tried to draw other in to justify a police lock down, but the people stood there peacefully taking no part of it. If the crowd had joined in they would have been arrested in mass & brutalized in the process of being herded. They chose the high road & the government agents were exposed as the hoodlums & law breakers. Does this help the legitimacy of spains government? What has happened to the governemnt all across the middle east north africa who were not perceived as legitimate? There are at least half a dozen more that are going to go before the end of the year.
What happened to those governments control systems? They went down more or less with the government. That can happen here too if-if the high road is taken.
Beau,
I’ve argued with you in exactly the way you claim to value. I’m the only one here who has taken everything you’ve said seriously, despite agreeing with the men who have been short with you.
To see you quote me as an example to prove your baseless accusations pisses me off – big time.
It’s obvious that you’re new here. Not only to this particular website, but to the MRM. You have no idea what Paul has said or done with regards to policing.
Guys who have been around a while, and who know what Manhood Academy is, will laugh at your arrogance.
I don’t agree with everything that Paul does or believes, either. But I say nothing because that’s very fitting for my level of activism.
What’s your level of activism? And, no, attempting to direct true activists doesn’t count.
Baseless?
Perhaps you need to read the quotes again including yours where you acknowledge some men in the MRM want to see equality that will result in harm to women.
Why would you get angry as it is not something that you want, but that you acknowledged other MRM members want?
My level of activism-I have posted over 3,500 videos, pulled a bunch, and have 1.25 million views on just about every activist subject that there is-broken law system, broken policing structure, rouge military, treasonous government, depleted uranium-BP Oil Spill-Native American environmentalism, rigged markets-rigged economies, government run & protected child sex rings, child sex trafficking, etc… Wow 1.25 million-no it is nothing compared to others, but it is something that I have done to try to make a difference.
I always want to do research before I post. I was looking to post Mr. Elam’s work, but I wanted to see exactly what it is all about-to do due diligence. I am not liking what I see-many of the problems are identical to when I studied feminism, but reversed to men. Feminism is a 100% joke-this movement is for real, but it has to keep its members honorable.
I have seen so many movements fracture, splinter, & disintegrate for the reasons that I have discussed in my posting. I do not want that to happen here-there are too many men that are suffering for that to happen.
If I have made you mad I am sorry for that.
You work on every activist subject there is.
Well, if you have any success bringing all of your 1000 issues to an end, you’ll be the most loved person in the history of the world.
And, you referencing me is wrong because I’m not saying the same thing you are. You were told to back up the claim that there was a “rule” we have here about irrationally disrespecting women.
My comment is NOT a support of your baseless claim.
I have read scores of articles, and thousands of comments on this site over the course of more than a year. Denis and Keith have also been around for that period of time.
What have all these AVfM veterans unanimously told you?
You are wrong.
I think that there are, maybe, two parts to the red pill:
1) see the injustice
2) understand that women and men are NOT the same (generally speaking, NAWALT etc)
My guess is that BD is choking on part 2. He still believes that if we treat women as men, they’ll man-up and right the injustice.
BD needs to look around the MRA sites to see that he is sadly mistaken.
Try Roissy’s site archives for a little insight into women. You’ll be disappointed, but you might recognise reality when you see it.
A lot of people here came from where you appear to be now…they took the second part of the pill.
You won’t change their views. If you look around at reality, you might change yours.
Until you do, I think that you’ll be banging your head against the wall here.
Your choice
Gendeau, I agree that part 2 of the red pill is essential.
It means realizing that women don’t care about men they don’t know, or consider beneath them. They are designed to find it easy to reject men, in order to fulfil their roles as reproducers.
A men’s movement that proceeds by begging women for sympathy puts men in the “beneath” category. A category where women view men as roughly as worthy of consideration as a soggy piece of cardboard.
Beau Deters’ approach requires that women care about justice for men just as much as men care about the same for women.
I don’t believe that’s the case, and I know for a fact that it isn’t.
@Beau
I am left to ask if your position on conciliation is rooted in gnostic principle.
Yes.
Conciliation worked wonders for the Jews. By the time they decided to resist they were already screwed and tattooed with an IBM serial number.
Men can’t survive conciliation or reconciliation. The only thing that will save us is pacification through a decades-long guerrilla war.
I don’t mean violence of any kind,necessarily, simply resistance.
If we just attack,attack,attack,attack, eventually even the feminists will get tired of all the bullshit and give up.
They won’t even attempt any misandric shit because they’re used to 10 men dogpiling them every time they try it. It becomes a conditioned response in women to avoid misandry, and a conditioned response in men to stamp it out.
Which,by the way, is the crux of our entire problem.
Men do not think or act as a collective. We let attacks on “men” slide, because we think of ourselves individually (I am a man, I am not men. Therefore, I am not being attacked, other men are.) Women do think and act as a collective. They are the opposite of us. They view an attack on any individual woman as an attack on all women everywhere (A woman is being attacked. I am a woman, therefore I am being attacked.).
Men must be conditioned to act as a collective. Not for the sake of limiting their individual freedom, which I value very highly myself, but for the sake of preserving our collective freedom.
The only way to do that is…..Yep, you guessed it. Sustained attacks over a long period of time. They teach us to work as a team.
THAT is the singular area that will make or break the MRM.
Can we work as a TEAM? Can we set aside OUR OWN differences to fight for that which we all hold dear?
The enemy without is nothing but flesh, the enemy within is iron. It is made up of all the things that negate our will for a better future.
Our fears, our misgivings, our brainwashing which tells us to surrender to women lest we be seen as “the bad guy”.
When victory is staring us in the face it is these things which will either rip us apart or galvanize us to make the final push necessary to topple the adversaryand remove from them the power to separate men from their children, or to poison women against men.
Then, we can talk peace. Then we can talk reconciliation.
One millisecond before and we will plunge headlong through another millennium of the swinging pendulum, and I think we’ve all had enough of that.
I find it funny that for BD to refer to conciliation, he throws the bone of moral ethics, as if it relates to some kind of improvement for men. Like if I take it my life will improve, not that I possess any real concerns for the quality of my life. Just that I should by some moral imperative, because he deems it imperative. If I just embrace these ethics everything in my life will be just wonderful. I’ve heard this shit spewed my better snake oil salesmen and I think I will just hold out for improving my life to my standards, real and perceived.
Was this intended as a refutation of something I said or an attempt to justify hating women & expressing pleasure in seeing them brutalized.
What I find repugnant about your presentation BD, is your methodical effort to re script everything that you read, after filtering through the paradigm of your narrow morality. No one is asking for your moral insights as such it is unappreciated.
You are free to churn on and on with your dime store sexism but I don’t think anyone here is much interested.
It is indicative of your beliefs and longing for validation, that you respond with only two options to define me and my beliefs. I don’t exist to you only you do. Your special brand of gnosis.
The only way to stop the cycle of violence is to stop the cycle of violence.
If you think saying look at history that is one long police report containing murder, rape, war, genocide, etc… some justifies your position of keeping up the violence you are serious misguided.
Don’t have time to read your whole response. However, the reason why Paul states that he understands the way people feel about the woman who said “you can’t do this to the girl” is because of the underlining premise of that statement. When she said “you can’t do this to a girl” she was really saying “its only okay to treat men/boys in this way and my vagina is supposed to make me immune”. Understand now?
another rephrasing of it would be, “I approve of violence of this sort to be perpetrated against men/boys, but violence should not be used against women/girls”
Paul Elam
June 23rd, 2011 – 01:32
I would never support the use of violence, but I tell you right now that hearing a woman say “you can’t do this to a girl” makes me sympathize totally with those that mock and enjoy her pain.
Mr. Elam was explicit in his defense of those that mock & enjoy seeing women in pain.
I do not believe that that is position he holds, but that is exactly what he typed. I think he typed it quickly & was not thinking straight when he did it b/c I genuinely believe that he does not support no condone the support for violence.
I am not saying the woman was right-she demanded recognition of special right & privileges & I would never say that. What is wrong is for the shrug of a should putting her into a cement barricade.
You are spot on in saying that she though left unspoken it was fine to abuse men.
So often it is not what is said, but what is not said, but can be inferred.
“I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Monica Lewinski.” Who is that woman? Was that woman Monica Lewinski or was he addressing that sentence to Monica Lewinski?
Excellent analysis.
I just wanted to let you know that your words inspired me to pick my nose.
I no longer buy the NAWALT bullshit arguement. The only ones who say NAWALT are feminists and manginas.
awwwww, not quite (please?)
There’s a lot in what you say, but there are some women with a moral backbone and compassion (just not very many, I agree).
Izzey is a pretty good example, but there are a few others here.
NAWALT doesn’t mean 50:50, or ANYTHING like that to me. It means that in an argument I’ll let the other guy stick up for his mother (as I would) and a few others.
We can disagree whether NAWALT recognises reality, or not. It’s not a battle I feel strongly about.
But using it as a disarming tactic against potential new allies’ (or feminists) arguments can only help us. It is much harder for them to counter a NAWALTed argument than a AWALT argument; they only need one example woman to defeat you. Saying 1 in 100, 1000, 1000,000 is not like that is all it takes.
Just sayin’
We have good women here. This place actually attracts them. No need to instruct anyone about their duty here.
Not to “spam” this thread nor throw it off course, but I ask our Brother “Eff’d Off” please to see my reply to him, above.
Okay, so listen, lol. I undersand that all of what happened was terrible, but Wikipedia isn’t doing what you think they’re doing. They only add articles that have been reported on and ones that have gained significance. Wikipedia isn’t a political group, and they don’t fall to emotions. They have their own standard of what is allowed to be added. There’s many many articles about others who killed themselves by self-immolation. They’re kinda nazis with their information.
@Evyn :
I’ve replied to one other post of yours, in that my rebuttal was measured.
Now you begin with “Okay, so listen, lol.”
Now I’ll state it more succinctly. You are a liar.
Ouch !
Yeah that was bad.
You gotta kidding me. There have been political edit wars on wikipedia since its inception. “wikipedia” doesn’t have an agenda, but many of the people who edit do.
This has been reported on, right here for one. Or did you mean in some pre-approved, thoroughly arbitrary manner? Again: Spare me.
@Evyn, June 24th, 201 1 – 12:14
What we see is that the Wiki-commissars gave this article the bum’s rush. Three hours between “consult” and deletion. That has a ripe smell of skunk.
Significance? They have articles on game characters, individual manga characters, items of TRUE insignificance. This is a tragedy of real meaning, though perhaps only to Tom Ball and the legions of other “mere men” who get screwed continuously by the Family Courts system. How much “significance” and to whom does an article need to have? I’m afraid the answer is too obvious.
In a pig’s eye, as my sainted grandmother used to say.
To quote Antz, June 24th, 2011 – 11:18 — “3) In an extremely unusual move, many senior wiki editors used personal attacks and ad-hominem defamation in their justifications. Any experienced wikipedia editor will recognize the departure from neutral language in every comment, all of which were made by administration-level wiki editors during the three hour “death by lightning” event….”
“Don’t fall to emotions,” my bilious pancreas.
Can’t argue that. And the spleen their senior editors directed at this article shows the slant of their “standard” – wouldn’t you agree?
And this somehow justifies their relegation of Tom Ball to “unperson” status? How Orwellian – it’s worthy of Winston Smith’s superiors at Minitrue.
I can’t argue with that, either.
Evyn, you may not have earned my spleen over this, but you stood up in the wrong set of trenches. Consider this your “Flying Fickle Fisk of Fate” award, if you’re old enough to have heard of Rowan & Martin’s Laugh-In.
BeijaFlor,
Anyone who can successfully work in a Rowan & Martin reference, gets my undying respect. Well done.
you bet your bippy
To the media, the court system and the stinky vagina attached to every feminist waking planet Earth I say this, GO FUCK YOURSELF. Your days are numbered. Smart men are talking and we understand that the only true way to make an impact is not to participate in your bullshit agenda. I know you fuckers are frequenting this site, you hate us with all of your being but you cant stay away. We are your new drug of choice as we expose your play book and kill you softly with our song. We are not a fringe movement, there are MRA’s that don’t even know they are but they do know that marriage is a lie and thats all the leverage we need. When you wake up one day and discover that men are OPTING-OUT of this lie we call marriage what will you do next? Will you try to force us back into the game, really, how the fuck do you plan on doing that? You sperm receptacles are a dime a dozen. You say you don’t need men but its funny how you get a few drinks in you and start walking around like a dog in heat. I also have a special message for Thomas Balls ex, get a job you fucking parasite, welcome to the real word. You most likely have already started your characters assassination of your dead ex but your kids will know you for who you are in good time. You put Tom through 10 of pain and when he had enough he did what most would not have the balls to, the unthinkable. I morn him with every inch of my soul as he sacrificed so much in the name in injustice. You are a wart on the ass of society and warts get burned. You cant hold a corpse in content but we have you pegged and you are completely accountable for what you’ve done. For those in the media and Wiki who are attempting to silence Mr. Balls message and discredit his sacrifice, you are too late. This brave man will not be forgotten, his message and his memory will be alive and well on this site. Over 600 thousand hits here to date and we will remember. We are the new modern men and you will get nothing more from us. Accountability is a bitch but you laid down with the state years ago and thats a good place for you. I just hope the state doesn’t find out your trying to cheat but don’t worry, I wont tell them what a whore you are, they already know.
Lord I almost forgot, Tom has a message for all you state sponsored whores.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Finger.jpg[/img]
This is beyond the pale. Thomas Ball is a martyr for mens rights. Wikipedia is defiling the memory of a mens rights martyr. I will support, financially, at the keyboard and through contacts, any effort to get wikipedia to do the right thing and memorialize Thomas Ball so men can see that he gave his life in a very public way to fight for other men to have parental rights to their children.
This will not stand. I will affix the following message to any post I make until wikipedia puts up the Thomas Ball immolation wiki.
Rember: Thomas Ball’s immolation, he gave his life for your children.
Questions, how many children and what are their names of wiki founders Richard Stallman, Larry Sanger and James Wales for a start.
Number of hits for immolation thomas ball, 874,000.
Funding wikipedia: Donations.
They are a very very soft target, they are pissing off people who are very unpleasant in public and online.
Sorry,
Remember: Thomas Ball’s immolation, he died for your children.
I ended up writing this to info@wikimedia.org. Feel free to steal and send too!
Hello. As a donator and supporter of the Wikipedia project, I was very disappointed to learn about the recent deletion of a wikipage on Thomas James Ball- A man who made the choice to set himself on fire, after being abused throughout the US court system. His story was a chilling one, describing how lawyers, judges, and the whole court system can destroy a father who only meant to love his children. Of course it is only one side of the story, but it is a side that must be heard.
http://avoiceformen.com/2011/06/24/the-organized-silencing-of-a-man-publicly-burned-to-death/
I really hope you will reconsider posting this article. I have loved the content that wikipedia has produced, and it would pain me to see such an informative website turn away from such an important issue.
Thanks.
Thank you for this, I followed your lead.
When I first read this story I was horrified, more than I ever had been, until now. . The blatant disregard for Mr. Ball, and clearly all men is a truth that will NOT be tolerated and it is to this end I have just registered;
ThomasJamesBall.com
Where Mr. Balls plight, story, demise, tribute to his sacrifice for others and a permanent record of the Medias shameful and cowardice conduct will be remain exposed for all to see. . Permanently!
We will not be silenced and neither will he!
Here is the thing. I need the assistance of a few good people that can go around the web and using the many articles and data available can help build a credible full “synopsis” of his story complete with links to the many MRM sites in support of this horrific injustice. (Send me anything you want included!)
If you can help, know enough about HTML and can build a few good pages for this tribute site then send them to me I will post them here. On HIS site!
Contact me at info@MasculisM.ca
I hope you get help. Please feel free to use any content here that I have written without asking, and please inquire about articles written by others. When you get the site up and running, lets get a permanent banner in the side bar here.
Bravo.
And red-thumb – stick it up your arse, you pustulant cunt
My email is sent, thanks for stepping up Jack.
Remember: Thomas Ball’s immolation, he died for your children.
Maybe the time is near when the names of all men fallen in the war against us were recorded in a single place – a place as solemn and respectful as any memorial to the tragically lost.
Lest We Forget.
Wikipedia also famously deleted the page on MGTOW some years ago, on equally spurious grounds. What an influential move that was – really taught us a lesson didn’t it?
I would have been crushed, if I’d noticed it.
Now, if asked why I say wikipedia is full of shit, I get to cite “Thomas Ball”.
Proof given and his name kept alive.
Rejection is sometimes better than casual acceptance mongo. Look at the great lengths the US took to try to stop Osama from becoming a martyr.
Wikipedia is helping to create this martyr due to their lax regulation of their editors, IMO.
Let them hang for it.
Remeber: Thomas Ball’s immolation, he died for your children.
How about a new name for it, here and among us?
“Fickypedia”
After the term “ficky-fick” used in Catch-22
I guess it had to go, to make room for the 500+ pokemon-related wikipedia entries.
western media loved this though ..
http://www.janpalach.com/
I did my best at getting the information back out there but I’m hoping more people re-upload this page.
I re-uploaded the entire Wikipedia article on Thomas James Ball to my server in all it’d full glory WITHOUT the marked for deletion notice Horse Dung (I deleted that crap code in the html).
http://powernpraise.com/Krazie316/Thomas_James_Ball.htm
Good one Krazie,
I went to your site and without knowing it my speakers were turned up a wee bit too much. When the homepage loaded and the music came in I almost wet myself in fright.
Thanks for uploading it on your site.
–>> Nice job! If you could “please” sent this to me? (as in, including dependant files = zip) We would also like to host this as part of his story…
Also, if you copied the “discussion” page that would be great to have as well…
Thanks! Jack day -> Submissions@ThomasJamesBall.com
Hell hath no fury like a man on fire.
This is a rage which is not familiar to me. If I did not have to work I would write about Thomas Ball 24/7. This is not ok. Nothing could slam me in the face with the reality of the mutilated conditions we live in as how this story has played out. Suddenly the absolute tyranny and iron fist is not a vague aberration, it’s right here, surrounding me. I am subject to the same murdurous treatment Thomas Ball was. This in the land of the free. ?
Thomas Ball’s story must live. This is the defining story of our times. The tortures of the last fifty years have all been leading up to this. This is the ultimate culmination of the feminist terror, the enslavement of man by the very society that he built. The society that he raised from the earth with his bare fucking hands. And this is how it repays him.
Let me put a little thought experiment to you. Imagine it is 1950 and Jim Crow laws and Segregation are in full force. If you are African-American, you are denied access to Americans of European decent and their establishments. Now, you are a man in 2011 and you are denied access to your own flesh and blood. Your own children are stolen from you as a matter of course. You are made an indentured servant to the those who ripped your flesh and blood away. And YOU HAVE NO RECOURSE.
There’s no exaggerating anymore, Men, this is the real fucking deal. It doesn’t get any more real than this. At what fucking point does a man draw a line in the goddam sand? Raping him of his children? And enslaving him just to twist the knife? How have we come to the point where we talk about stealing people’s children, in passing? Like it’s some sort of normalcy? This is not normal. This is mutilation. femiNazis wrought this hell.
Keep this story and legacy alive. The femiNazi at wikipedia who betrays Thomas Ball and every man worships at the feet of this fucking slag on her prestigious website:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin
and justifies this fucking tripe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Bieber
and is hypocritical to the point of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phuntsong_self-immolation_incident
Hell has already been raised.
Men will crucify those who get between them and their children. It is nature’s way, and it is god’s way. By stealing children from men, the criminals are putting his children at risk and in harm’s way. Men, fuck. shit. up.
Is there going to be a march for Thomas Ball? How do we honor this outrage?
I have been submitting the story to various media outlets, hopefully someone at some point will cover it.
I clerked for a District Court judge in law school, and we spent two of my four years in Family Court. Upon passing the bar, I opened my office , and I practiced family law for a number of years. (That’s so you know I’ve been in family law court a few times. A few thousand times, actually.)
Tom’s story sounds just like the story I’ve heard from so many hundreds of guys who never knew that, once a guy stupidly does something that causes him to enter one of the systems of concern, he is dogmeat.
When I say “systems of concern”, I’m talking about two main areas – physical abuse, and drug/alcohol abuse.
Here, Tom freely admits that he slapped his daughter. I suspect Tom knew this was wrong, and I suspect Tom was very sorry for having done this. But, having done it, and having it established for a fact on the court’s record, Tom entered the system – he became a Known Physical Abuser of his child.
Once this is the case, you live every single day at the mercy of a host of advocates and counselors and busybodies and evaluators who all spend the bulk of their daily lives fighting against the evil of physical abusers. They are attuned to the subject, they are passionate about the subject, and they all know, to a certainty, that a Known Abuser will do it again unless watched closely.
It’s much the same in the chemical dependency world, where it’s a basic professional tenet that denying that you have a drinking problem is one of the strongest signals that you have a horrid drinking problem. Once you enter into the clutches of the kind of people who can defend such logic, you can never completely get out.
And, in both worlds, the laws of most states place you at the mercy of the the advocates and the professionals. Tom’s case seems typical; if you fail to kowtow to your assigned professionals and fanatics – if you don’t firmly convince them that you have bought into them as your personal saviors – then you can never get out of their system, you can never again be a true parent to your kid or kids, and you will constantly be butting heads with people you would never consider hiring in your own business but who have been given power of life and death over you and your children, and you’ll lose every head-butting match, because you’ll have no power – your choices and knowledge, your kids’ choices and knowledge, will all mean nothing.
It’s the guys with more intelligence than average and minor, one-time culpability who suffer the worst in this system. They know what’s wrong with the way things have been set up. They know that they ought to be able to prevail when they have a logical and rational argument along with strong proof of facts that are favorable to their case, but they quickly learn that the system does not value such things. Instead, critical decisions about the most important parts of their lives – meaning, their kids – are left to an advocate’s subjective whims and guesses and biases and reactions to perceived slights. The fathers themselves are completely disempowered.
And Tom’s ultimate reaction here is far more common than most people suspect. His method – burning himself to death on the courtroom steps – is more painful and public then would appeal to most guys in his shoes. But do not doubt that there are many suicides of intelligent loving fathers who made one mistake and who would likely never ever raise their hand to a child again simply out of personal guilt, without any help from the system, but who, by that one mistake, got themselves captured forever by the system.
Truly, you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. Tom, I’m sorry.
From what I remember on the Wikipedia the overwhelming consensus on the discussion page for this for this was to keep it . Who the hell removed it and why? This a should be appealed, they usually do not delete a page if anyone objects.
Sound like the secret police have driven by in the night.
…… I found the deletion discussion log.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2011_June_18#Thomas_James_Ball
Look at the mass of delete votes at the end all within an hour. Looks like collusion ie meat-puppetry to me.
Lack of main stream coverage does not infer lack of notability. There are numerous circumstances where notable events are suppressed by the media,eg for reasons of National security, might effect Stock markets, the personal security of a private citizen, political interference and to not encourage copycat events, etc.. My guess is the Ball case is a combination of the last two.
“They [Wikipedia] just have a really high standard of what is allowed to be added.”
Hogwash, the unscholarly, gender feminist drivel about domestic violence that they routinely have allowed on their pages proves their standards are in the gutter.
Thomas Ball:
burned by the mindlessness of mindless feminist inspired changes to hetero-sexual family structures;
burned by Western legislators who fearfully, ignorantly and willfully assented to feminism’s deliberate false advertising;
burned by judges who strangely uphold unconscionable attacks upon family’s societal glue;
burned by lawyers who took his money dangling a false promise of anything remotely associated with fairness;
burned by callous social agencies offering him scant relief from the state hammer;
burned chiefly by his wife who knew she could get away with resulting financial and material inheritances plus child custody from divorce – the very things that feminists, legislators and judges all seem to agree upon. If the law is an ass then these people represent both the head and back-side of this beast;
burned by the cultural zeitgeist that he be deserving of it all;
burned by his friends?;
burned by his own hand;
burned now from wider public memory.
Pray his soul not be scorched forever by the last act of his brief earthly existance.
(P.S. – came straight to comment here after reading Manuel’s article)
Intel on Beau Deters:
-Young guy with a religious platform
-Likely uneducated or educated in theology
-No history of association with MRM or MR activities
-More likely to be a conscious man or thumper
His youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/detersbb
The websites he promotes:
http://gnosticteachings.org/
http://sacred-sex.org/
Divine sexuality:
“Real sacred sexuality is a magical act whose power is only realized upon the basis of love between one man and one woman. This is not the word “love” that we throw around these days, even using it in reference to potato chips or cars. Real love is something magical, divine, that perplexes artists, poets, and mystics, but that is only truly known by those it has alighted upon. This love – real love – is a divine power, that vanishes the instant any animal desire arises. Lust, desire, or mere physicality only accesses the animal aspect of sex, not the Divine. The presence of the Divine within us can never be found in orgies, casual sex, or any sexual contact that lacks the true psychological and spiritual connection between man and woman, which is love. In such events, we only find the animal elements.”
Fake Science:
http://sacred-sex.org/science/kellogg-masturbation
Homophobe:
http://sacred-sex.org/christianity/jesus-and-homosexuality?qh=YToxOntpOjA7czoxMDoiaG9tb3NleHVhbCI7fQ%3D%3D
“Intel on Beau Deters:
-Young guy with a religious platform
-Likely uneducated or educated in theology
-No history of association with MRM or MR activities
-More likely to be a conscious man or thumper”
Good work.
“Divine sexuality:
“Real sacred sexuality is a magical act whose power is only realized upon the basis of love between one man and one woman. This is not the word “love” that we throw around these days, even using it in reference to potato chips or cars. Real love is something magical, divine, that perplexes artists, poets, and mystics, but that is only truly known by those it has alighted upon.”
Oh,Beau! Say it ain’t so….
I checked out some of that shit you’re pimping-it’s New Agey bullshit masquerading as the noble Hermetic science. Gnostic Teachings appears anything but Gnosticism, there’s a piece on rune stones near the top.
Show me where you can find the rune stones in the Pistis Sophia.
http://www.gnosis.org/library/pistis-sophia/index.htm
Beau,buddy, if you’re interested in Hermeticism read Paracelsus,Agrippa,Aristotle,and Pythagoras. And,of course, the aforementioned authoritative text on Gnosticism, the Pistis Sophia, which is like the Gnostic bible. Much better to go to the horse’s mouth and have a look inside for yourself rather than letting a “medium” tell you what his teeth look like.
If you’re interested in “Divine Sexuality” you can get more bang for your buck from the heroin-fueled scribblings of Aleister Crowley, he fucked a lot of broads with his robe and wizard hat on.
The people you’re following know as much about hermeticism as I know about All My Children.They’re frauds trying to sell books,rocks,and sticks to morons.
“Oh,Beau! Say it ain’t so….
I checked out some of that shit you’re pimping-it’s New Agey bullshit masquerading as the noble Hermetic science. Gnostic Teachings appears anything but Gnosticism, there’s a piece on rune stones near the top.”
Have you even read any other introduction articles on that website or gnostic teachings before making that judgement that this is all new-age information?
“Show me where you can find the rune stones in the Pistis Sophia.”
The runes were used in Atlantis, Lemuria, & Mu, but I don’t understand why this is relative to a men’s right forum or a rebuttal to any point I made?
“Beau,buddy, if you’re interested in Hermeticism read Paracelsus,Agrippa,Aristotle,and Pythagoras. And,of course, the aforementioned authoritative text on Gnosticism, the Pistis Sophia, which is like the Gnostic bible. Much better to go to the horse’s mouth and have a look inside for yourself rather than letting a “medium” tell you what his teeth look like.”
If you had bothered text from those & many other gnostics have been put on Gnostic teachings Along with works of just about every tradition in recorded history. Again I do not see this being relevant to a MRM forum, or an attempt to rebut any point that I made.
“If you’re interested in “Divine Sexuality” you can get more bang for your buck from the heroin-fueled scribblings of Aleister Crowley, he fucked a lot of broads with his robe and wizard hat on.”
Heroin fueled scribbling will explain divine sexuality? “[f]uck[ing] a lot of broads with his robe and wizard hat on,” is divine sexuality? If you sincerely believe that you have need to study the word divine.
“The people you’re following know as much about hermeticism as I know about All My Children.They’re frauds trying to sell books,rocks,and sticks to morons.”
You have demonstrated by attempting to paint a drug addicted sex fiend as a master source of information about divine sexuality, more so then the website you posted, that you nothing of the people I follow. Only in complete ignorance would you state that they are frauds. If you had actually bothered to look at the website map you would have seen that the books you claim that they are trying to sell are available for free, can be printed, or they had actual books & ebooks to buy if that is the format you choose, but the books are available for free to read & print.
Your attack was childish, immature, petulant & rooted in ignorance. You treat the “intel” like it some kind of secret-it is not. I did not tell b/c you did not ask & it is improper for me to come onto another’s forum & promote myself-ideas yes in a forum dedicated to debating ideas, but not myself, my youtube channel, my favorite websites, etc… If you want to know something about me-ask & I will tell off this forum-as it is supposed to be about men’s rights & the movement & my life is not men’s rights & the movement.
Lol.
Mr. Sensitive.
I didn’t attack you. My comment was actually in the nature of trying to steer you away from people trying to exploit you.
“The runes were used in Atlantis, Lemuria, & Mu, but I don’t understand why this is relative to a men’s right forum or a rebuttal to any point I made?”
It isn’t,wasn’t intended to be a rebuttal to anything.. And Theosophists,which popularized Lemuria and Mu, are perhaps the most prominent reason why Hermetic scholars came to be seen as frauds during the Age of Enlightenment.
Theosophists and their goddamn seance bullshit did more damage to the credibility of that vein of scholarship than anything else,arguably.
And yeah, a drug-addicted sex fiend would probably be the guy to talk to about “Divine Sexuality”. He gets laid a lot more than the mangina fake yogis who couch their fantasies about sex they’re not getting in mystical terms so as not to be seen as “perverts” because they’re men who like to look at and fantasize about female flesh.
If you aren’t getting any pussy, it’s highly unlikely that any advice you have about “Divine Sexuality” is relevant to anything, assuming sexuality is divine in the first place, which we will assume, for simplicity’s sake.
It would be like taking advice from a PUA with a notch count of 1.
Now, as to the “intel”. We vet most people who come onto these forums unknown to us. Mostly it’s in the nature of “trial by fire”.
You are handling yourself very poorly so far,Beau.
I was just ribbing you a little. I do it to EVERYBODY. Ask anyone around here, I’m always giving other people shit,but it’s always respectful and fair.
You need to calm the fuck down,man, take a step back. Do some breathing exercises,smoke some weed, whatever it is that you do.
I am not attacking YOU, and I never have. I have disagreed with some of the things you’ve said, I have attacked what I saw as imposture by others AROUND you, but never you personally.
Go back and read through what I wrote. I have NEVER said ANY of the shit you attribute to me.
As long as I have been in this movement,I have also never said that I hated women or enjoyed seeing them brutalized. NEVER.
CHILL. THE. FUCK. OUT. and get out of my face with this passive-aggressive bullshit.
If you take issue with something I actually said or did, point it out, we’ll have a chat about it, but don’t go attributing shit to me that I didn’t say or do.
If I attacked you or advocated hatred or violence against women, it wouldn’t be some little piss ant comment on a message board, it would be in the streets with sawed-off shotguns and molotov cocktails.Everything I do, I try to do in an exemplary fashion.
I’m here because I want to see this work out where nobody gets physically hurt. I want to attack stereotypes and bigotry surrounding men, not the persons of the people creating the misandry.That, I would reserve as a last resort,for when the tanks and trucks are rolling through the street rounding us up for the death camps.
But I’m here to see an end to this war of the sexes, not to perpetuate it,just like everyone else here is.
So,I’m asking you very politely now, as one man to another, to please chill the fuck out,and stop attacking me personally and attributing statements to me I have not made. I’m the last person on this thread you want to be coming at like this. I’ve been extremely fair and reasonable with you,I would appreciate a little of that in return.
“Now, as to the “intel”. We vet most people who come onto these forums unknown to us. Mostly it’s in the nature of “trial by fire”.
You are handling yourself very poorly so far,Beau.”
Forgive me for not caring for the ritualistic initiation & hazing. I never really saw the point in it in my whole life nor do I now.
______________________________________________
“If I attacked you or advocated hatred or violence against women, it wouldn’t be some little piss ant comment on a message board, it would be in the streets with sawed-off shotguns and molotov cocktails”
Go back and read through what I wrote. I have NEVER said ANY of the shit you attribute to me.
As long as I have been in this movement,I have also never said that I hated women or enjoyed seeing them brutalized. NEVER.
Nergal
June 26th, 2011 – 12:12
I second that.
Men have been doing nothing but covering their faces and screaming “Please,no more!” for the last 50 years.
The result?
Covering your face is now a crime.
We tried turning the other cheek. Unfortunately, we have now run out of cheeks to turn.
Time for Plan B,I say.
Nergal
June 25th, 2011 – 23:29
Conciliation worked wonders for the Jews. By the time they decided to resist they were already screwed and tattooed with an IBM serial number.
Men can’t survive conciliation or reconciliation. The only thing that will save us is pacification through a decades-long guerrilla war.
I don’t mean violence of any kind,necessarily, simply resistance.
If we just attack,attack,attack,attack, eventually even the feminists will get tired of all the bullshit and give up.
They won’t even attempt any misandric shit because they’re used to 10 men dogpiling them every time they try it. It becomes a conditioned response in women to avoid misandry, and a conditioned response in men to stamp it out.
…
Men must be conditioned to act as a collective. Not for the sake of limiting their individual freedom, which I value very highly myself, but for the sake of preserving our collective freedom.
The only way to do that is…..Yep, you guessed it. Sustained attacks over a long period of time. They teach us to work as a team.
______________________________________________
Forgive me if I have taken the words that you have posted on this page as being an advoction of hatred & violence against women, a person taking you at your word would see attack, fight, dogpile directed to women as meaning violence. “I don’t mean violence of any kind,necessarily, simply resistance,” Leaves the door wide open for the use of violence by using the word necessarily-if a person takes you at your word.
______________________________________________
“I didn’t attack you. My comment was actually in the nature of trying to steer you away from people trying to exploit you.”
I did not ask for nor did I solicit your advice on the websites I follow. I am not interested in doing back ground intel on you & could care less what websites you frequent. What I concern myself with is sustaining this movement & as you put, & I mean this sincerly, so articulately, “But I’m here to see an end to this war of the sexes, not to perpetuate it,just like everyone else here is.”
I want to see the end of the war, but that end will not come when violence rages. It is not unreasonable to define war as widespread violence with an agenda. That is something I no longer care to see any more by anyone in any country for any reason. The websites that I follow (were linked) are a path to that. I have tried for over 3 years & 4,000 hours to find contradictions-inconsistencies-philosophical impossibilities in what they advocate & have not been able to even chip a sliver.
Other movements are riddled with the aforementioned. Those affliction hamper the progress of the movement & often lead to its demise-example feminism has the seeds of its own destruction sewn into its foundation. Those seeds seem to present here & I want to get them out b/f they crumble the movement. I gather you understand exactly what I am saying.
I would be comfortable chilling out when the war ends, when men are treated like humans. I would prefer until then productive fruitful debate.
If I have offended you I am sorry.
“I did not ask for nor did I solicit your advice on the websites I follow. ”
Well, none of us solicited your advice,either.
In fact,most of us are rather tired of you twisting our words around to mean things we didn’t say or intend to say.
I won’t give you any more advice and you can keep yours to yourself as well.
He’s manipulative as hell,
He said my debating skills were poor even though I had told him I wouldn’t debate with him. How the hell would he know if my debating skills are good or crap if I haven’t debated with him ?
He tried to annoy me out of silence but he’s got a prayer.
If you’re still in doubt check out this copy and paste from his YT channel:
———————————
I am a multi dimensional being having this experience, in this body, at this time. I want to help others realize this and work together to make the most of this experience and enjoy to the max the time I am spending animating crude matter.
If this makes me crazy or mad or insane, great. I would detest the alternative, and suggest if you have read this far, to at least question it.
I have said enough.
—————————————–
Umm,, yes I think you have said enough.
Soooo…If he has to state that he is multi-dimensional…Does that mean that he is inferring that the rest of humanity (those of us beneath him) are unidimensional? What does a 1 dimensional human being look like? A dot? LOL….Or perhaps he meant metaphorically as in his personality or something? I’ve never met someone who displayed anything that could be even close to considered a one dimensional personality…anyways I think Im rambling now, cya lol
Thank you
Do you have a body?
Do you have a heart/emotions?
Do you have a mind?
Does not each constitute a dimension of your total being/existence separate yet united into that which you would identify as yourself?
If this an attempt to refute what I have posted by discrediting me-attack me leaves my message uncontested.
If I am wrong it would behoove your efforts to show how I am wrong in saying what I said-rather than calling names & the such.
If you wanted to know me or where I got my positions I would have been more than happy to give them to you. I saw the negative responses to the poster who discussed Jesus & don’t feel that it is a good idea to discuss spirituality here, so that is why I use a secular of language as I can to avoid responses from those hostile to spirituality.
If you think that pointing this out is a viable tactic to discredit me, all you are doing is demonstrating rather than refute & disprove what I say you seek to cuss me out, call names, & then show my backfround amounts to little more than an epic fail.
What I said stands on its own merits, but being unrefuted and attacking me personally b/c you can not refute that which I said show that you are desperate to be seen as the winner. Do you remember that maturity thing I mentioned above Denis? This is not a mature debate tactic-this is childish & exactly the tactics that those the MRM oppose use to try to get their way.
If you want to know anything more about me all you have to do is ask. I was not trying to hide anything. I am not embarrassed by anything I wrote there. I thought it would be wrong to come onto this forum & promote my you-tube channel-ideas in a debate forum-yes-trying to steal membership to my cause-no.
Just so readers understand you can have no understanding of sacred sexuality from one paragraph taken out of context from hundreds of lectures, hundreds of articles, thousands of books.
Your attempt to smear is very sad. Your attempt to pick a couple of articles & think you know what is being discussed without have any context is delusional. But I will forgive you for you do not understand what you do.
“But I will forgive you for you do not understand what you do.”
Hmmm sounds like you’re wearing a crown of thorns here buddy. I mean plagiarising Jesus of all people. Wow.
Would you like a ladder to climb out of this one or do you want a spade to keep going ?
Perhaps you would like to refute what I have said rather than take a hatchet to it?
It is universally accepted in all debates that personal attacks are a sure sign of conceding the point to the other side, as all that is left to do is attack, name call, & discredit-but never refute or rebut what is said b/c to do so would require the inversion of logic, reason, & intellectual honesty.
So if you would like to debate what I said rather than attack me personally-I look forward to debating. If you are just going to name call & attack in a desperate attempt to discredit please save your breath.
I haven’t attacked you personally, unlike your baseless accusations and insults against me. Now the gloves are off and I’m telling the truth that you are a liar about being MRM and you are misrepresenting yourself.
I am telling Mommie on you? Really?
Perhaps you can start by telling me where I claimed to be part of the MRM-I am not aware that I claimed that I was MRA. I have written a lot, but that is not something I remember saying.
Please bring it to my attention if I did.
Beau Deters wrote: “I did not mean to imply that *WE* steal & copy the feminist playbook. What I meant was to find the essence of what worked for the feminists & adapt that to the differences faced by the MRAs.”
Now fuck off you evangelical punk. You don’t know shit about the world.
Ok.
I stand corrected.
You are right on my not being a MRM member or a MRA, I am sorry to you & any & all that thought I was by using the word “we” in reference to the MRM member/MRA taking the feminist playbook.
You are right I should not have used the word “we” & I apologize for all the confusion that the use of that word “we” has caused.
I humbly ask your forgiveness for the poor choice of the pronoun “we.”
Let me be clear, you are the enemy!
Beau,
I replied to one of your rants: see above.
I know this isn’t a ‘logo’.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Thomas Ball_Nothing Left_2.png[/img]
I think this is:
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Thomas Ball_Nothing Left_logo_2.png[/img]
It could be a ‘conversation starter’, yes?
oh, I rather like that.
Another version with his name would be nice too…hint, hint
And / Or his website address
I sent a note to the http://www.thomasjamesball.com admin offering this to be used on their site.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Thomas Ball_Nothing Left_logo_3.png[/img]
Patrice, that is just OUTSTANDING. With your permission I will find a place in the sidebar for this to use as a link to thomasjamesball.com
This is really lovely.
“Patrice Stanton “. We did not get any such mail but would surely would like to see them and maybe use them if appropriate. Could you please resend them to; Submissions@ThomasJamesBall.com TIA!
Absolutely EPIC, Patrice!
Cosmic, even.
Boy, am I glad I broke the whole Wikipedia part of this story.
This is the kind of unity in a call to action
that I’ve always wanted to see.
And you’ve just made my day all the sweeter.
–The Final Justice
How the fuck do we stop the violence when we’re not participating in this cycle by committing any violence?
You stop the violence by not doing violence yourself.
You stop the violence by speaking out against violence.
You stop the violence by speaking out against those who call for it.
You stop the violence by speaking out against those who express pleasure in seeing violence b/c common acceptance rather than rejection is a powerful deterrent.
You stop violence by talking to your family, your friends, your co-workers about it.
You stop violence by talking especially to the police, military, judges, DAs, attorney, case workers, etc… That you know.
Will it change everything overnight? No, but violence & brutality & the control system was not assembled overnight. We need to realize & reject the magic pill society in which we live. Correcting wrong that have been decades-centuries in the making can not be done over night. Look to the collapsing governments in the Middle East & North Africa-the change came fast 0 to regime change in a matter of a month, but the build up was decades in making.
First the step to change is IDing the problem. Then people need to understand it in general. Then comes the idea that change must occur. Then comes a push for change.
How many people in the US would say that there is a problem with family courts hating on men enough that the system must be changed now?
Until pressure for that change has sufficiently built, unless as a “miracle” change will not occur & those who stand to lose from that change will seek to crack down. It is always darkest right before the sun rises.
This is not an exhaustive list on how, but it is a very simplistic guideline that needs a great deal of work-admittedly, but it is something.
Nope, you blew all cred. sorry.
Everything you said here is yawnable as we’ve all heard it.
I think it’s more likely that you know we know you’re a vacuous try hard and are trying to gain traction here.
Too late – we’ve seen your fruity YT profile and the dung you endorse.
P.S.
Doing the “You stop violence by…” with line after line with dramatic poetic spacing is pretty silly as the populace here are about oooh say 35 I.Q. points and several years of hard earned wisdom ahead of you to fall for it.
For the 3rd time now please refute the ideas on their merits if you want to seem credible.
Attacks are not a credible rebuttal, nor are they an effective way to refute what I have said.
Name calling is childish behavior, unbecoming of the M in MRA/MRM, & not a credible debate tactic & if you must I prefer to be called poopey to fruity.
35 IQ points? Proof? Substation? Support? Please don’t let something inconsequential like those get in the way of making silly allegations.
If you want to be taken seriously you need to learn proper debate format or you will just come across as petulant behavior. I want my ideas tested, but calling me names & in an attempt to discredit me, proclaiming I am discredited, but refusing to discuss anything I have to say is not a challenge to my ideas & frankly grows boorish quickly.
Actually I didn’t call you a name. If I did then what was it.. I mean what exactly was the name I called you ?
I’ll debate with anyone about anything but I won’t with a liar, an idiot, a clown or a sleep walker.
Your YT profile is so flaky and quite frankly too far left of the bell curve for me to have motivation. All those “ism’s”
I really do not care what activity occurs between your ears or the noise that comes out of your mouth.
The only thing you and I have in common is that we don’t give a hoot what the other person thinks.
I’m bowing out of this one because for me debating with someone that says “Transhumanism” is of interest to them means I’d have more chance having warm and lustrous fireside chat with a feminist in a Chekov play.
Picking ones battles is better than expending energy on a lost cause as in me to you and you to me, get it ?
You may have the last word and be the winner and I am the loser, ok.
You are most silly and better with your rantism you be on your horsism doing an uninterrupted fleeism.
Okism ?
Actually I didn’t call you a name. If I did then what was it.. I mean what exactly was the name I called you ?
And I quote from you immediate preceding post:
“I think it’s more likely that you know we know you’re a vacuous try hard and are trying to gain traction here”
Vacuous try hard.
If you can not debate without resorting to the use of ad homonym attacks than bow out with honor and just say you are bowing out don’t try to justify or excuse yourself.
Ok you win I lose.
Yet your loquacious ‘prosetry’ has failed to convince us depsite the fact that we actually agree with you about the major issues.
You’re out of your mind to think that talking can end violence. Violence is intoxicating to those who use it because it gets shit done in ways that conversation can’t.
There is no cycle of violence here. It’s the state punishing men in a one-sided system of oppression.
You hear that Mr Deters, what he said !
Yeah !
I second that.
Men have been doing nothing but covering their faces and screaming “Please,no more!” for the last 50 years.
The result?
Covering your face is now a crime.
We tried turning the other cheek. Unfortunately, we have now run out of cheeks to turn.
Time for Plan B,I say.
“Time for Plan B,I say.”
A call for violence?
Yes…
Cop this !
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Fart.jpg[/img]
You are a good artist.
You are not such a good mature debater.
Well, forgive me, I’m only 13.
Oh,goddamn it. You’re im-fucking-possible.You did it AGAIN.
How do you know I’m not talking about a bake sale or a bikini car wash or Plan B,the popular morning-after contraceptive?
You’ve got violence on the brain. This site is like a big Rorschach test and no matter what card I hold up, you see violence.
Pretty soon I won’t be able to use popular expressions like “Boy, did you see the game last night?They really killed ‘em!” without you phoning in a murder.
You’re so intent on painting me as violent against women.
What the fuck is your problem?
Hey Nergs mate,
Forget about it. This guy sees only what he wants to see.
For example, you know the post I am replying to right now… well look how blinkered this twit is. I mean can you just see the hate and madness in your words like he can ?
Nah,, better you shut up – he fix you plenty big time with police phone call..
You sssh now.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Capture-5.JPG[/img]
Hahaha.
I needed that.
“There is no cycle of violence here. It’s the state punishing men in a one-sided system of oppression.”
And when fight back the cycle will not be complete?
“You’re out of your mind to think that talking can end violence. Violence is intoxicating to those who use it because it gets shit done in ways that conversation can’t.”
Go ahead attack the control system & see what happens. If it has demonstrated anything through history it is that it is efficient in killing all who resist it-if there is 1 thing all governments do well-that is kill people their own other governments’ people does not matter-they kill people exceeding well.
What did Captain Shay’s rebellion result in? The formation of the consolidated powers of the states in the form of a federal centralized US government, no?
What was one of George Washington’s early official acts as president? He dispatched federal military forces to suppress the whiskey rebellion that protested with some violence if I remember right an unconstitutional levee of excise tax on whiskey. US Constitution limits congresses authority to legislate & levee tax to the 10 square miles of DC & territories & possession-the federal tax was levied onto the Citizen of the Several States.
What did those acts of violence serve but to grow the power, the jurisdiction, the accepted violence of the control system?
First people have to understand the injustice, then they have to recognize it as injustice, then comes the calls for change & the push for change. The 1st 2 or talk.
But you seem to be implying that violence somehow fits into this process even before a SINGLE piece of major legislation is submitted into the congressional record?
“There is no cycle of violence here. It’s the state punishing men in a one-sided system of oppression.”
Mr. Ball advocated violence & I have repeatedly stated that that is not the answer. Several posts have supported the use of violence. One of your posts acknowledge that many man support helping women get equality in terms of brutal treatment. This is fanning the fames for violence.
The state is punishing men in a one sided system of oppression. I do not argue that. What percentage of the population knows about this-is aware that this is happening?
What percent of the population would accept that premise after hearing it?
What percentage of the population would accept & support calls for reform?
What percentage of the population would accept an invitation to be part of the push?
Whatever the form of government it is alleged that it is to represent the majority-is there a majority here to justify challenging the corrupt system-one that refuses to reform itself from within by recognizing blatant violations of the equal protection clause to one but one? The reform is not going to come from within the system until popular pressure is applied sufficient enough to lead it to it happening.
Is there that popular support?
I don’t think so. The movement is just, but not popular yet. It is maturing & taking off-it is in the infancy stages right now & as I said that is the time where talking & educating is vital to grow the support needed to manifest the change.
Nothing that has been decades in the making is undone in a day. It takes time & the time is ripe to talk & educate for now the big calls & pushes will come when the population is ready, but until then they will not be properly received. Violence will hurt terribly in this movement early stages.
Nothing is so powerful as an idea whose time has come. The MRM ideas are coming, but have not yet reached the critical mass needed to enact systemic change or the toppling of the system & replacing of it by another similar to that in Middle East & North Africa.
Aha, I see what you’re doing now. You think we’re advocating violence, and so you’re having a conversation with us about that.
Still, I wonder if we’re the best use of your time. We haven’t actually done anything. (“Not yet,” as you would say.)
However, the government is perpetrating violence RIGHT NOW. Wouldn’t you accomplish more by taking this “Break the cycle!” speech to the fuckers who are actually within the cycle?
Maybe you subconsciously know that it won’t work, and so you peddle your neo-Ghandi pacifism to people who are just as powerless to stop the system as you are?
Even if you convinced us…. then what? We go off as your acolytes, repeating the Good Message to people who then go on to do the same?
And, then what…? The enemy still has guns, the prisons, and the courts – and the will to use them.
Maybe the Love Energy from thirty-two million hearts – beating as one rhythm – will break the 3 billion year old cycle of living creatures using their physical bodies to affect other organisms’ physical bodies in ways that disrupt the atomic bonds of those bodies.
Oh, shit. Maybe I’m thinking too hard about how this would actually work. I should just stick with projecting my good intentions into the omnisphere of the justice-verse. There is no way this plan can fail!
Yes !
You said what I was thinking but couldn’t put my finger on. Thank you.
This guy is here getting off on a debate with us all for the purpose of sharpening his debating skills and giving himself a sanctimonious warm tummy feeling.
I get it now too. In the interim I thought a fart joke might sharpen my penmanship.
Guffaw !
He ruined his chance to have a serious discussion with me when he misrepresented a comment I made as me saying that the men here support harm coming to women.
Any further posts I make will be for personal titillation puposes only.
Yeah I saw that too,
I bowed out because the guy is just “tuff-fluff”.
Like I said to him before I won’t debate with someone that is a liar a nut a clown or sleep walks.
I suspect he’s a sleepwalking deranged clown telling whoppers.
Perhaps we could let him dribble on to nothing of his own volition ?
Eincrou
June 22nd, 2011 – 11:46
Some MRAs like to take seriously the bogus ‘equality’ political device feminists use, and want to really follow through with it. That can only mean worse treatment for privileged women, and they see this video in that light.
I can see where I, “…misrepresented a comment [you] made as me saying that the men here support harm coming to women.”
Could you clarify for everyone else on where, just so everyone can be clear?
If you want to make this personal-you admit you have no objectivity & you lose sight of in your pursuit of “titillation purposes” the goal of this forum.
“They tell us Sir, that we are weak — unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a Feminist guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature has placed in our power.” — Patrick Henry
Tweaked slightly.
You’re way too naive buddy. You can speak as much as you want, your enemies will laugh on your suffering, and keep goin’ the status quo.
Especially when they are the ones is charge, not you. Oh yeah, and they will not hesitate to use violence to keep you in your place.
“The battle, Sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, Sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable; and let it come! I repeat, Sir, let it come!” — Patrick Henry
Pretty much says it all.
Lets just compare the effectiveness of Beau Deter’s evangelical new age spirituality movement.
What have you done from men? How effective have you been?
I already know the answer to that one. Nothing, ineffective and you are opposed to men’s rights. You’re just selling snake oil.
Actually Denis I think we have a winning circumstance here. The State brutalizes the very people that invoked it’s power, women. The manginas come to the rescue, calling for all men to stand up and defend the feminists.
Nobody shows up, and the state thugs get to pummel the shit out of the feminists and the manginas. That’s a win without ever showing up.
I think the best thing to do is produce and circulate more videos of the state brutalizing their feminist wives. It’s very non-violent. I’m going to get to work on that right now.
…do not support the use of violence, but you will support those that do? [if female]
…do not support the use of violence but you will defend those that do? [if female]
…do not support the use of violence but you will protect & stick up for those that do? [if female]
What a perfect description of the taxpayer funded, gender feminist based, Violence Against Women Act, those who support it, and those who criticize men who are victimized by it. The magnitude of the hypocrisy of gender feminists and their ilk never ceases to amaze me.
V.P. Biden recently called violence against women, “the very worst abuse.” The very worst abuse is valuing one life less than another for having been born the wrong sex. Under Biden’s Violence Against Women Act the wrong sex is men. Shelter & services are virtually non-existent for male victims of d.v. so options out of a bad relationship, that are routinely available to women, are often not available to men. Men wind up gender profiled & often falsely accused by the taxpayer funded, d.v. industry, because of gender feminist ideology controlling the d.v. industry as shown in Los Misandry at Youtube.
It is worse than you say.
Wikipedia has not only removed Thoma Ball’s article, it has removed him from the list of political self-imolations.
If you put his name in it still suggests that page under “… consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered.
“, and its search engine still shows the details as if he were listed. However when you click through to the page he is not listed. It seems that he was listed until recently, but has been removed and the search engine has not caught up to the change yet.
Disgusting.
Just to show you the page results currently shown for “Thomas James Ball” and the bottom of the table of political self-immolations.
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Thomas Ball 2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Thomas Ball 1.jpg[/img]
Personally, I think people should find every possible article on wiki that can be tied to Thomas Ball. Then edit them to mention his suicide, and link to the delete page that this self-righteous jackass has created.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_protest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_custody
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_law
Just a few to start >:)
As many people as possible, as many pages as possible.
Make it painful to wiki to “cleanup” and to back Master Of Puppets and his censorship of what he doesn’t want people to hear.
Everyone needs to tweet directly at Jimmy Wales (http://twitter.com/#!/jimmy_wales) about investigating the conduct of Wiki admin Master of Puppets and his early deletion (by 2.5 days, he himself admits here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Thomas_James_Ball ).
If we trend this on Twitter, we can definitely get the page back and stop the admins over at Wikipedia from further whitewashing Thomas Ball from other pages of Wikipedia.
American tragedy.
FEMINISM/NationaL oRGANIZATION FOR wOMEN WAS/IS A US Government construct. Every NOW president after the honorable Betty Friedan was a Manhating Lesbian Lawyer. Ms. Magazine was indirectly started and funded by the CIA. Gloria Steinem has been a CIA agent provocature since 1958. NOW was compromised by these manhaters by the highest levels of US government to fracture the American family which it has steadily done since 1966. (SEE portland indymedia on Gloria Steinem.) The institution of Marrage has been coopted into a multi billion dollar divorce legal business with the Feminist BUMP. Along with the bogus ‘domestic violence’ industry and the obscene crooked ‘child support’ industry. All our Family Courts are LAWLESS operating on fascist ‘procedure, policy and protocal’ and utterly unconstitutional. This intentional destruction of the basic building block of our so called Democracy, the FAMILY, is the greatest problem we Americans face today. Men’s or Fathers rights groups don’t stand a chance with our Federal Job Stimulus in 2009 paying NOW $310,000,000.00 to lobby against ‘shared parenting’ and for ‘parental alienation’ and to refund Billions to the Violence Against Woman Act. Feminism now confuses young girls with the “right to be as slutty as you want” while criminalizing men/boys for thought crimes. Due Process is DEAD and the FEMinists are the culprit and they were CREATED by our American Government and the Media it controls. So Thomas Ball self-emoltation video of him on fire is confiscated by the cops and the story DIES as that woman who cut off her husbands penis because “he deserved it” reaches the AP and PBS and CNN and MSNBC and FOX and is laughed around the water coolers nationwide. I hope the truth comes out before it’s too late. Feminism is pure EVIL. And NO, I am NOT a misaginist.