Feminist battle

The battle for feminism’s soul

The title of today’s talk is, the Battle for Feminism’s Soul.

So . . . What is feminism? What ISN’T feminism? These are vital questions, and controversy has swirled around them for years. This controversy is no storm in a teacup, for I can assure you that much rides upon the outcome.

When a non-feminist encounters a feminist, the mood is sooner or later bound to get testy. To state that another way, each party carries a psychic atmosphere of her own, and these atmospheres are bound to clash. The encompassing social ambience will not accomodate both of them; one or the other must yield. As they say in the old western movies, “this town ain’t big enough for both of us.”

The unspoken tension between feminist and non-feminist will eventually come to a head and show itself openly. This regularly happens in a small way, in the social microcosm. It has not yet happened in a grand, conclusive way, in the societal macrocosm, although it is our job to accelerate the arrival of that day. But on whatever scale it occurs, the confrontation rides upon a mutual assessment between these two parties or, if you will, between these two principles.

Hence the typical pattern of interchange between a feminist and a non-feminist. The non-feminist will make known her feelings about feminism and the feminist will, mildly or otherwise, “get defensive”. So what is happening in these discussions? Clearly, the talkers are talking past each other because they are talking about two different things. The feminist’s “feminism” is NOT the same thing as the non-feminist’s “feminism”. Each conversant has a different mental picture of what the word feminism signifies in real world terms.

The non-feminist looks upon feminism as the less desirable option; that is what makes him not a feminist. Meanwhile, the feminist looks upon feminism as something sacred, and for that reason looks upon the non-feminist standpoint as akin to sacrilege. Please bear these points in mind.

Again I put it to you: what is feminism, and what ISN’T feminism? We need to address that pesky little question with exactitude in order to reach any over-arching conclusion about feminism’s desirability or lack of it. Therefore feminism, the object under examination, must be pinned down, immobilized, and forced to become a definite something; only in that way does it become examinable and susceptible to evaluation. So answers need to arrive, and they need to arrive from authoritative sources. Consequently, the question of authority itself comes to the fore, as does the question of questioning authority.

Briefly then, who has authority to tell the world what feminism is or is not? Does the feminist have such authority? Does the non-feminist have such authority? Or do they each in their own way have such authority?

In the present talk, my contention is that any person at all may at least presume to speak with authority on the question of what is or isn’t feminism. Anybody may set up shop in this trade, and there are no licensing requirements. Self-declared participation in feminism itself is no prerequisite for this. If that word (feminism) points to any discoverable object at all, we must allow that the pathways of discovery are manifold and not subject to any monopoly. Anybody may compete in this market, although success will vary according to the governing criteria. So, it is the governing criteria which are now under consideration.

“But wait!”, I hear some feminist interject. “Only a feminist has any true authority to say what feminism is or is not, because only a feminist has participated in feminism and truly LIVED feminism. No outsider has any authority to tell ME what feminism is or is not!”

I would reply, that your communal experience among self-styled feminists grants you no authority but to speak of what you and others underwent in your time together, and what you felt and concluded from this. Your particular viewpoint and your especial path of knowledge are in no sense privileged. Neither is it taken on faith that you would evaluate your position honestly. Hence, your authority is merely clubbish, a compound of social memories mingled with selective awareness and possibly wishful thinking. And while these club memories might constitute authority of a parochial sort, there are other forms of authority, from other sources, which must not be neglected. Do not forget that others can view your club from an outward aspect—does that count for nothing?

“But wait!”, I hear that feminist interject again. “I have studied feminism for years, and I have read all the books, and I have earned a degree in women’s studies. Don’t tell me your authority equals mine, mister!”

I would reply, that if in addition to hanging out with supposed feminists, you boast of a scholastic or intellectual authority, you must remember that you aren’t the only one who can read books and think about things. Others, very different from you, are avid readers and thinkers also—and they do not have the same emotional filters that you have. So they are free to follow their own unblinkered genius, to quaff from fountains of knowledge that would not occur to you, to generalize, to factor-analyze, to string the dots together and formulate conclusions that might differ markedly from your own.

“But wait!”, our feminist chimes in for a third time. “I am a WOMAN! How dare you tell me what feminism is or is not!”

I would reply: “Quite right, you are a woman. And I am a Sagittarius.”

And I repeat: ANYBODY may presume to say what feminism is, or what feminism is not. It adds no weight to your claim to merely call yourself a feminist. It gives you no head start in the game. After all, anybody can say “I am a feminist”. Talk is cheap, and whether you call yourself a feminist, or call yourself a two-headed Patagonian, has no bearing on your claim to expertise.

And again I say, that a lot rides upon the outcome of this controversy. We must eventually decide in very exact terms what feminism is or is not, and the question is so important that I have given it a special name which hints at the magnitude of it. I call this question the battle for feminism’s soul, and I wish to make known why I do so. And as I have already suggested, we seek not only to discover what feminism IS . .. but to determine whether it is right or wrong, desirable or undesirable, noble or ignoble.

Up until now, the feminists have claimed a monopoly of discourse in this realm, thought-policing the avenues of conversation leading into it or out of it and transforming the world of respectable mainstream opinion into an echo chamber where only feminist questions are permitted to be raised, and only feminist answers permitted to be formulated. Not surprisingly, the feminists have concluded that feminism is desirable and honorable. However, they have consistently shrouded in fog the plain and simple definition of feminism, making available so many so-called “answers”, and such inadequate ones, that there is effectively no answer at all. And that, I submit, is the weak point where we as counter-feminist seekers of truth must conduct our drilling operations.

Which indeed we have done. And after years of work, we have concluded this: that the “nice” parts of feminism are not feminism’s soul, because they do not quintessentially belong to feminism. Rather, they belong to the world at large, and to the realm of liberal humanist bromide. They belong to the generally received body of traditional opinions about fair play, common decency and the like, and if they were broken loose from feminism they could just as well sail under their own flag. Certainly, they do not require a new-fangled monikker like “feminism”. And yet, they serve feminism as a masking device because they obscure the vital presence of that OTHER feminism, the not-nice kind whose sole purpose is to boost the female-supremacist agenda.

Yes, we have concluded that female supremacism is feminism’s soul. For it is indeed, by any measure, more significant, interesting, original and consequential than liberal platitudes—and politically more profound in its implications, by an order of magnitude

Already, I can hear a howl of protest. “No! That’s NOT what feminism really is!”

And I would reply: “Bad luck! You’ve had YEARS to tell the world what feminism really is. Now it is the world’s turn to tell feminism what feminism really is!”

The battle for feminism’s soul, is the battle to define feminism’s core minima in both a moral and practical sense and, by so doing, gain effective control over feminism’s narrative in pragmatic, real-world terms. It is the world’s turn to tell feminism what feminism is, and this will come about by shifting the center of narrative authority away from feminism itself. If you are a self-declared feminist, your supposed “inside” knowledge of feminism is worth no more than the “outside” knowledge which others are able to bring forward—THEIR knowledge can be as quintessentially revelatory or determinative as any other.

Accordingly, the nasty bits which outsiders may remark about feminism are not regrettable, accidental, outlying features. They are as much a part of “real” feminism as anything your friendly neighborhood Earnest Feminist would urge you to believe. If these things are feminism’s “excrescence”, it is because they have been excreted, or forced out from the center, which makes the center their point of origin. Accordingly, our task as counter-feminist propagators of knowledge is to factor feminism’s excrescence into its essence. Or as certain wits and wags will be quick to say: to feed feminism its own shit!

Yes. The world has long been an object of the feminist gaze, so it is time to flip the script, and make feminism an object for the world. They have been gazing into the abyss long enough; now the abyss is gazing into them.

Such is the battle for feminism’s soul.

About Luigi Logan (aka Fidelbogen)

Fidelbogen is a writer, videographer and webmaster of The Counter Feminist. He is a semi-regular contributor to A Voice for Men generally writing on the subjects of feminism and men's rights.

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  • ghebert

    Well said. The rest of the world has grown tired of letting feminism beat around the bush and as such, have defined feminism by its actions and not by the ideal of feminism that we so often hear of.

  • Zuberi

    I had not the slightest idea that feminism even had a soul.

    • Just1X

      Yeah, it’s not pretty.

      Think of the portrait of Dorian Gray.

      Not bad looking when they wanted the vote, but nowdays…?

  • Bev

    An “ism” is defined not by definitions, discourse, or theory. It is defined by its actions. Many years ago I stopped looking at and reading the “theory” and started looking at actions and facts. I have returned early from my trip and much has occured whilst I was away. I totally agree with the approach taken by Paul and must praise Kyle Lovett for his exposure of the real face of feminism in Oz (something my research showed me a long time ago). I have seen many good people fighting for an even handed approach ignored or beaten down by the feminist “machine” in Australia. Submissions, reasoned discussion amount to nought “the sqeaky wheel” approach is what is needed.
    My trip, much good some bad. A highlight was watching my 8 year old grandson land a very large (42 cm) bream (average size 28 to 32 cm) after a 20 minute battle including 4 runs when I was sure the line would break. The bad, running into 2 men I had not seen since they were teenagers (friends of my daughter). Feminist inspired laws have served them badly since I last saw them but both have managed to survive and having their children with them for a holiday was a plus for them and their children after the financial and emotional roller coaster they and their children have endured. Their trials and tribulations harden my resolve to do my bit to pull down the feminist “machine” or at the very least expose it to sunlight.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

    Thank you F.B. (Feminist Buster ?)
    As always a fine deliverance of truth.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F

    Feminist: – “I’m a feminist and I say exactly how this discussion will go.”

    MRA: – “I’m not a feminist and I think we both have views that in a discuss…”

    Feminist: – “Shut the fuck up.”

    MRA: – “Please. I think we can be…

    Feminist – “Shut…

    MRA: – “…cool headed…”

    Feminist: – “..the fuck up.”

    MRA: – (silent)

    Feminist: – (silent)

    Feminist: – “Giving me the silent treatment eh ?”

    • by_the_sword

      Feminist: – “I’m a feminist and I will say exactly how this discussion will go…”

      MGTOW: – “Hmm? What was that?” [turns back to whatever he was doing and ignores her]

  • Kimski

    “It is the world’s turn to tell feminism what feminism is,”

    -And the answer is indeed quite simple:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVpLxqTd0Mo

    Thank you for this, Fidelbogen. You just handed me a couple of really good pointers, that will help me a lot in an ongoing discussion I’ve had for years with one of the really hardcore ones.

    • http://www.artistryagainstmisandry.com Jade Michael

      Just a side note – I think it’s genius how you brought a crypto-Glam Rock ditty into this discussion. lol

      • Kimski

        Actually, it was their conclusion to Fidelbogen’s statement, that I wanted to emphasize.
        ‘-And it ain’t me who’s gonna leave’.
        ;)

  • Primal

    Love this post. Reminds me of this story from Shuckin’ and Jivin':

    JUST IN CASE

    This man was playin’ with the girl. She says, “I can’t do anything like that. I’m on my period. I just can’t do it.”

    So he went on ’round the back, you know. She says, “No! Don’t touch me back there. I got hemorrhoids,” you know.

    “Ah-ha-a-a!”

    So he get out of his car, goes back in the trunk of his car. She’s wondering what he’s doing. Here he comes back—-with a crowbar (italics). She says, “What the crowbar for?”

    He say, “Well, just in case, damnit, you go lockjaw too!”

    • Primal

      To be clear, there is nothing truthful inside this Girl (feminism) that’s worth playing with or working for. The bitter lie that is feminism seems immune to even crow bars. What this is really about is the battle for an objective description of feminism rather than a battle for feminism’s soul. Crocodiles and other cold blooded reptiles have too little soul to be worth battling over.

  • the hermit

    http://goodmenproject.com/men-and-feminism/toward-equality-for-everyone-a-response-to-the-end-of-feminism-as-i-knew-it/#comments

    Here’s an article at TGMP, where a feminist tries to convince men that she’s an ally of us, and radicals are not the “real” feminists. With different words, another NAFALT article.

    I asked her- IMO a polite way-, who exactly the NOW (what clearly has an anti-male agenda) represents, if not her and other “moderate” feminists. Feminism can not be gender neutral, as the name shows.
    I don’t have a reason to trust anyone who call oneself a feminist.

  • OzWriter

    Fidelbogen is correct, but the point needs to be made: Feminism’s greatest strength is never defining itself. This bears repeating: Feminism’s greatest strength is the fact it has never defined itself.

    It is also Feminism’s greatest weakness.

    At the beginning of any movement, no-one expects a fully-formed definition of that movement from that movement about that movement. Look at the beginning days of (say) psychiatry or the beginning days of Free Market Economics. Both had hopelessly inadequate definitions of themselves. Now, everyone knows what they are.

    Counter this with Fidelbogen’s point about Feminism: it can no longer claim to be in it’s beginning days. It is now a fully foully mature cancerous growth and yet has still never fully defined itself. In this way, Communism or Neo-Conservativism is much superior: they defined themselves early on. I disagree with both of these things, yet I know precisely what they are.

    Feminism? Can anyone rally define it? If not, then I say we Men’s Rights Activists (or counter-feminists, if you prefer) can be the ones to define it.

    There is a great truth in a posting done elsewhere:

    “http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111210181259AAu0vqV

    “…it’s interesting that the feminists always fall back on their CIVIL accomplishments (career opportunities, property ownership, voting rights) when everyone objects to feminism based on their political/social accomplishments (high divorce rate, war of the genders, massive discontent, blurring of gender roles, masculine demonetization, femininity regarded as weakness, frivolous civil lawsuits, female gender preference for custody battles while locking husbands down for alimony and child support, etc)….”

    While some of the above statement is slightly incorrect (Feminism existed after all women obtained property rights- at the same time all men did) the “soul” or spirit of the statement is highly incisive. It shows where Feminism has decided to allow it’s alleged accomplishments not to define it, but rather to allow it’s alleged accomplishments to allow itself never to need to give a definition.

    The reasons for the lack of definition is clear:

    #1. it provides too easy a target for any critique of Feminism if the Feminists have a sound definition of Feminism. After all, you cannot critique that which you cannot define;

    #2. it allows the Feminists to forget about the tough intellectual stuff of trying to work out what they are and therefore what they are not. This frees up many resources to take on what is Feminism’s true aims: the slow, grinding, all-encompassing abolition of the male. On that one point – and only that point – do Feminists agree. Some are milder in their schemes, some are more hurried, but all have the same aim. And a definition of such would be highly offensive to most reasonable people. But this allows Feminism to achieve it’s broadest reach: a right-wing ultra-nationalist Feminist is the same Feminist as the left-leaning Marxist Feminist is the same as the Gaia-worshipping Eco-Feminist is the same as the Lesbian Separatist Core Feminist is the same as the rest. That the movement cannot hope to reconcile the views of the above is obvious. That it does not need to is also obvious – hence the need to avoid a definition altogether. This is their weakness and it leads to the next point;

    #3. Feminism, by failing to have a definition, allows outsiders to make that definition for it. The only way it can respond is by criticising the definition – or the definers. The moment it allows the definition of itself to become the main issue, Feminism has had it. It will have destroyed itself, because every version of Feminism – united only by their hatred of men, expressed, latent or ignored – has some part of it’s underlying philosophy that is incompatible with every other version of Feminism.

    One final point (and then I promise to shut up):
    #4. Every great strength is also a great weakness. Also, where something is at it’s strongest, it is also at it’s most unguarded. I must use military examples, here:

    Pearl Harbor (in the Hawaiian Islands) was thought of before the Second World War to be impregnable to aerial attack, because the bottom of Pearl Harbor was too shallow to allow torpedo-bombers to launch torpedoes. That this thinking was proved colossally wrong is obvious.

    Singapore was the British Empire’s greatest fortress. Yet in 1942, thanks to the notorious guns that faced the wrong way and were armed with the wrong ammunition, it fell to 6,500 little men on bicycles who had just run out of ammunition. 87,000 men surrendered to the Japanese and had to endure a horrible life as a prisoner of war.

    As an aside, what the Japanese did to those men will be as nothing to what the Feminists have planned for us men in the future.

    Back to what I was saying – So, too, with Feminism. Feminism has never defined itself, and that is it’s greatest strength. But Feminism’s guns are facing the wrong way. The very lack of a definition is now the greatest weakness Feminism has.

    Thank you to fidelbogen for the post and I will shut up, now, and let everyone ignore me.

  • mccrorie

    This is a good topic that I need to work on. This year I’m going to focus my Arts studies (capital A for patriarchy!) on feminism and its effect on art theory and practice. To this end I’m going to need a good foundation of knowledge and a crystal clear position on ‘what is feminism’ from which to explain my thoughts and, as the tutors would say, ‘speak to my work’

    In particular I find the concept of the ‘male gaze’ fascinating, and also disturbing in its implications towards male sexuality. Learning about this kind of stuff was like picking a scab I never knew I had – that scab being the deep-seated shame I felt, and sometimes still feel (at the age of 31) about my own physical desires. It’s a liberating thing to dispassionately analyse the toxic ideas that most likely contributed to my hopelessly prudish and meek attitude towards trying to actually satisfy those desires.

    I’m open to suggestions on resources/books that would be helpful in establishing an answer to ‘what is feminism’ (of the obvious anti-male persuasion) from which I can base a critique.

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      You might find the following worth your while:

      http;//gynotheory.blogspot.com

  • OneHundredPercentCotton

    Looking into the abyss:

    Matriarchy in USSR
    matriarhat-v-sssr.narod.ru/zhen-en.htm
    They confessed that earlier male sex occupied privileged position (though, it was fraud, a husband never actually totally dominated in a family in Russia, despite …

    (Please note how in Russia WWII Military memorials now feature WOMEN, even though women did not even serve.)

  • http://truthjusticeca.wordpress.com/ Denis

    If female supremacism is the issue that we oppose then that definition of feminism is incomplete as there are many female supremacists that are not self-proclaimed feminists.

  • conservativation

    Feed them their own shit….

    “Feminism and Coporaphagia” (somebody gi’me a subtitle )

  • http://www.artistryagainstmisandry.com Jade Michael

    “You’ve had YEARS to tell the world what feminism really is. Now it is the world’s turn to tell feminism what feminism really is!”

    Brilliant! This is such a conclusive response to common feminist dribble. They can’t help but step back, at least for a moment, and think of their next response vs. spewing whatever their hysterical emotions dictate. Loved this article.

  • http://a-wayforward.blogspot.com/ caimis.vudnaus.

    Good article thank you for posting.

    I actually was thinking about something similar recently and had even started a draft on my blog about it, but I went more from a stand point of trying to show with a bit of evidence who actually controls their political clout.

    Not really for us, per say, more as an intellectual exercise or something to show fence sitters.

    A short version is if you take the ideologies they profess and then check each point seeing if:

    1. It champions both men and women
    2. It Demonizes men.
    3. It does neither.

    You then look at laws and show that the majority demonize men.

    You get a clear picture by their own words who is in control.

    Radical Feminists and Eco Feminists.

    Surprisingly the other ideologies score rather well and what they say they believe in is rather benign. In fact, Equality Feminists ideology would even fit right along with MRA’s.

    Too damn bad they not only have no power but refuse to realize it.

  • AntZ

    “So . . . What is feminism? … If you are a self-declared feminist, your supposed “inside” knowledge of feminism is worth no more than the “outside” knowledge which …”

    No. Absolutely, 100%, NO.

    What you say is true of the MRM. It is NOT true of feminism.

    The MRM acts only through influence. The MRM has ZERO political power.

    In contrast, feminism is the most powerful political lobby in human history. Feminism exports its policies and beliefs through a network of academic institutions, political institutions, social institutions, and legal institutions.

    Here is the objective answer to “what is feminism”:

    Feminism is the SUM of the power exercised by feminist institutions.

    In other words:

    Feminism = Sum of feminist policy initiatives

    Here is what feminism is NOT:

    1) Feminism is NOT what feminists say it is
    2) Feminism is NOT what “outsiders” say it is

    Here are two objective examples:

    1) Feminism supports felony multi-year prison sentences for fathers who fall behind on child support:

    “… NOW Supports. Promoting Economic Justice. S0023. Would decrease the amount of child support arrearage constituting a felony from $10000 to $5000 …”

    2) Feminism is against equal parental rights for fathers:

    http://www.glennsacks.com/enewsletters/enews_11_28_06.htm

    • Bombay

      Yes. This is the same logic for what each of us is. We are everything we do. Any other explanation is not reality.

    • keppler22orbust

      PREACHING TO THE CHOIR…

      Well well, just when I thought I was all alone! I thought almost every guy out there was a Feminist or a brow beaten ninny. I am from one of the “Hearth Zones” of Feminism. I have some interesting persona anecdotes to share which have helped shape my opinion of this strangeand unpleasant phenomena.
      As well, research has been obtained and analysis
      rendered as to what the real purpose of Feminism actually is…
      Some 20 years ago, I was forced to, due to housing circumstances, live on a property occupied by a
      Feminist and sympathizers. Fortunately, I lived in an adjoining room with a private entry. But I did have access to the house and, on several occasions,
      heard things I wasn’t supposed to when the Feminists gathered for an informal conference. Even twenty years ago, they were a fright! The orientation of the living room was such that I could overhear conversations. Now I know what Anne Frank must have felt like!

      They would speak of snipping or chemically gelding men with less than five inches. They would talk about grading men like cattle- everything they themselves
      claim men do in a beauty pageant, but a thousand times worse! Criteria such as looks and penis size would be weighed. The Chinese girl said: We can
      send a lot of the 5 to 7 inchers to China! Maybe I can make a lot of money in importing. Chinese women will adore penises in that size range! It was Barbarella
      gone wild!….I know they were just fantasizing but……

      There was another incident, later, when the resident Femi-NAZI was more relaxed with my Testosterone
      rich presence. I was privileged to a cartoon that those outside the loop are not supposed to see. It depicted a woman utilizing a certain technique to destroy a man’s testicles for such a serious offense as swatting her
      on the ass. THIS MADE PRINT! over 20 years ago.

      I’ve seldom had intelligent people to discuss this with: The so called intelligentsia appears to be completely usurped & co-opted by Feminism to the
      point of condescending to NON BELIEVERS! Indeed, in MANY intellectual circles one’s intellectual prowess is gauged by the number of Feminist authors one is Familiar with! The truth behind Feminism is, however, utterly nefarious:
      GLORIA STEINEM IS A CIA AGENT AND HAS BEEN FOR A LONG, LONG TIME!

      In the 1960’s the world was undergoing some radical changes. On the Berkeley campus, students proclaimed the Education system itself was programming and not enlightenment. The Vietnam War and Civil Rights Movement proceeded to fuel the fire. The Era was enlivened by larger than life
      revolutionaries: People with great intelligence and charisma. The powers that be thought:
      SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!
      This revolution is reaching into the most elite classes!
      So they hatched a plan:
      KILL THE REAL REVOLUTIONARIES
      AND REPLACE THEM WITH FAKES!
      Many have accepted the contrived term “Conspiracy Theory”. An honest look at history renders it intellectually invalid.This may seem a far fetched conclusion; but I beg you:
      -ASK YOURSELF:
      How much sense would it make for them to do just that? How much sense?…….
      Feminism made many people FLEE THE LEFT due to the INSANITY of Feminist doctrines and precepts.
      It has destroyed the Family and kept wages low while
      increasing the tax base. QUI BONO = It is the far
      Right hiding inside the Left.

  • Dannyboy

    It really is about time feminism had an objective analysis done on it and the effects it has had on society in general.
    I really am tired of the subjective view done by feminists themselves.
    Can you say conflict of interest, vested interest.
    I know how about this plain old common sense man just plain old aint interested in subjective explanation of feminism.
    Lets have an honest, objective inspection and tally it up from there.
    Thanks Fidelbogen

    • Kimski

      100% agreed.
      Would be really nice with a historical objective examination of the long term consequences, for men and society in general, of each and every law that have favoured women for the past fifty to a hundred years.

  • Poester99

    Current discussion at PJ media valid to this discussion:

    http://pjmedia.com/blog/why-feminists-dont-rob-banks/

    Have at thee!

  • Watson87

    Just to correct you OneHundredPercentCotton, there are many examples of women who served in the Red Army during World War 2.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Witches
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Shanina
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanya_Baramzina

    As to the main topic of this article, it’s unsurprising that the main logical fallacy that of the No True Scotsman.

    • OneHundredPercentCotton

      Just quoting the article. Perhaps they meant no women were ever forcefully conscripted.

      Certainly not enough served to have an exclusive on WWII war memorials …although, come to think of it, the US has the VietNam Women’s Memorial.

  • http://www.thereformedbuddhist.com/ Kyle Lovett

    “The battle for feminism’s soul, is the battle to define feminism’s core minima in both a moral and practical sense and, by so doing, gain effective control over feminism’s narrative in pragmatic, real-world terms.”

    Excellent observation. And many times this narrative of direction, this need they feel or action often times turns to entitlements from the governement. But their very nature, these entitlements embody a gendered discrimination, or what they see as a “need to balance the books.” When their narrative ignores the imbalance between men and women, they refuse to relinquish power that they have in these entitlements, even while men keep falling behind.

    If feminism was really about equality, they would have been the first to end or adjust these entitlments. But that hasn’t happened, nor will it. In the face of overwhelming evidence, they continuie to play the victim role to keep a tight grip on their privileges.

    This is our point of attack. Go for their pocketbook, and they are forced out of the woodwork to justify these segregated laws. This is were truth is their enemy, and they damn well know it.

  • justicer

    What soul?
    Feministitia Delenda Est

  • keyster

    A non-feminist is simply someone who’s not conscious of its existence at all; like perhaps an alien or a New Guinea tribesman.

    An anti-feminist is someone who’s aware of it, may even understand its purpose, but dares question the dogma.

    Everyone else is a feminist.

    The soul of feminism is not dominance, it’s separation and self-identity as a distinct class of people. These people are typically identifiable, but not always, as female.

    It’s to say women are a very distinct and separate group of people, but not to be identified as such in contrast to the male, (as in Mrs. or Wife). They are their own class with their own needs and grievances; typically those grievances are with the male or men.

    Feminists have created “Team Woman” by creating a false schism between men and women. “Man and woman” are no longer a team, because of the anomosity and suspician that feminism has created between the sexes. The individual woman was repressed so they needed to unite in number to save her.

    Feminists do not want to dominate men, they’d just prefer men didn’t exist at all, (but if they had to they’d be compliant feminist men). This is not dominance this is separation. They want women to “self-actualize” without dependence on the male in any way. That’s the vision, the end game.

    Within several generations there will be large numbers of women who can do anything men do; engineers, truck drivers, miners, politicians, mechanics, etc. and women will not have to depend on “a MAN” for anything; because as long as she does, she’s beholden to him, she’s his slave, and she must have sex with him and bear his children.

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      “A non-feminist is simply someone who’s not conscious of its existence at all; like perhaps an alien or a New Guinea tribesman.

      An anti-feminist is someone who’s aware of it, may even understand its purpose, but dares question the dogma.”

      An anti-feminist is also a non-feminist, if I am not mistaken.

      Your statement here is basically correct, you’re just jumping the gun.

      • keyster

        “An anti-feminist is also a non-feminist, if I am not mistaken.”

        Not to a feminist it isn’t.
        A “non” is passive — doesn’t know, doesn’t care.
        An “anti” is active — knows, but won’t fully commit and might even question.

        I think those are important semantic distinctions, from the “soul” point of view. If you’re not a feminist, you must be an anti-feminist, because how could you possibly be anything else? That’s how they see it. That’s the orthodoxy of it.

        • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

          “If you’re not a feminist, you must be an anti-feminist, because how could you possibly be anything else? That’s how they see it. That’s the orthodoxy of it.”

          My point exactly. I have written about this elsewhere.

    • http://www.manwomanmyth.com Perseus

      Very nice, keyster. I must ask you for one more paragraph. So what does it look like when females don’t have to depend on a man for anything? How does that play out? Back to alpha hirams and jungle rules?

      • keyster

        It’s pure fantasy, science fictional Sapphos Islands of angels governed by Goddess Culture. Like children at play, they haven’t really thought through the details yet.

        They will be the primary actors and the male will be secondary, if he must exist at all; much like the opposite of how the world has always naturally been.

        Enmity against men and independence from the male is the end game. It’s then Utopia will be reached.

  • justicer

    Ouch, Keyster, I’m not so sure.
    First, I’d like to remind everyone that many women — well intentioned — mistake “equity feminism” for “gender-feminism” through loose use of the word feminist. The two are radically different. We should probably avoid the confusion by saying “gender-feminism,” which is the real name of the enemy. As for equity feminism, it’s alive in places like Saudi Arabia, where equity is still an issue.
    Of course, though, that doesn’t prevent N.O.W. from claiming that women are discriminated against, using phony and misleading research.

    Secondly, on the issue of “separatism vs dominance.” Academic feminists are currently lecturing to halls filled with 19-yr-old women, and here’s what they’re saying: “One of the mandates of feminism is to feminize the culture and the male population, especially young boys.”

    And guess what, all over the Western World, they’re winning. The world is full of 22-year-old manginas and boys who are totally demoralized and confused. They even talk like girls, witness the hidden question-mark at the end of their declarative sentences: “Personally???? I never liked Brad Pitt in that gangster movie?????”

    Seems to me that all this doesn’t point to “separate but equal.” In fact, my experience is that “separatism” is specific to lesbian-feminism. So we’re left with a plot to achieve some sort of “supremacy.”

    The following is a link to the first page of a paper that preaches the “feminization of management vocabularies,” which does not mean replacing the word “manpower” with “staff.” It doesn’t even mean filling the office with 100% females. it means “getting the office and the plant to reflect female socialization and organizational principles and female-inspired colors, moods, and values.”
    Link: http://www.jstor.org/pss/259231

    Meanwhile, our culture itself is being stripped of its foundational texts, books that were created by men — via the academy, which is cowed, bullied, and silenced by feminism, when it isn’t feminist itself. It’s not that some of the books aren’t on the curriculum; it’s that you don’t have to read or study them any more, you can replace it with Womyns Lit. Our most brilliant fiction writers are stigmatized for “not treating their wives fairly.” Their voices are disparaged because they are male. Their female characters are dismissed as “voice appropriation by men.” Our most heroic literary figures are degraded, in favor of hacks with ovaries and a female grievance to relate.

    Also look at the mass media and how far they’ve gone in becoming “feminized.”

    • keyster

      That’s the latest tactic, to indocrinate males while young into feminism. (hence the GMP, as an anecdote to the growing “manosphere” for example).

      The separation is between feminists and anti-feminists. If you’re a card-carrying male feminist, they don’t have a problem with you…at least not YET. ;)

      If you’re anti-feminist you will be dismissed, derided, excluded, disenfranchised and not even worthy of acknowledgement. Because anyone that opposes feminism is “extreme” and probably violent, by default. In their view it’s pure heresy. If they could legally burn you at the stake, they would. How dare you question their “word”!

      • justicer

        Absolutely, Key.
        Oh and I agree with some of your claims about ‘separatism’. Gender-feminism by definition has separatist overtones; however, they’re too lazy to go and settle an unoccupied patch of land somwhere and actually “be separate.”

  • http://none universe

    FB
    “If you are a self-declared feminist, your supposed “inside” knowledge of feminism is worth no more than the “outside” knowledge which others are able to bring forward—THEIR knowledge can be as quintessentially revelatory or determinative as any other.”
    – Thumb-up to that.

    Let de-construction-ism, that post modernist invention of nihilist subjective confusion, have its way upon feminists. Those same who’ve aligned themselves with it.
    Yes, FB, agreed. My view of feminism is as valid as any feminist. It speaks and I observe.
    Now feminist, you’ve shown the world who you are by both word and deed. Now the world will show what you are.

  • mccrorie

    @Justicer: This idea of something ‘feminized’ as a marker of progress seems an intractable problem for the ideology. It conflicts with supposed gender neutrality and implies some concrete femininity that needs to be promoted to the same, apparently privileged, level of masculinity. Even to the degree that it becomes its’ own branch of etymology, epistemology, historical revisionism… ‘herstory’

    This continual blurring of the lines between gender and sex does my head in…

    • keyster

      Since women have abjectly failed at becoming more male like or masculine; which is what feminists assumed would happen once they were “liberated”…
      …they’re now targeting the male (and the world) to become more feminine.

      It’s an easier sell to ask men to become more like women, than it is women to become more like men. It’s a descending of acceptable character traits from men; whereas women were asked to ascend past femininity.

      In other words, feminism failed female transcendence to true equality, so they’re targeting the male to descend to a female level; all under the guise of “Gender Egalitarianism”.

  • justicer

    Very interesting observation, McCrorie.
    You’re right, it isn’t coherent or systematic.

    Incidentally, I once was exposed to a female manager who held a special seminar, led by a feminist group-theory guru, where males working in the unit were told ‘not to debate the manager’ by disagreeing with her, because ‘debate is a male form of discourse, not a female one’.
    Use and evaluate that tidbit for yourself.

    Let’s see what this particular feminist says about her own article (linked above):

    [the author] “…reviews accounts of managerial work,” critiques them “from the feminist perspective known as women’s voice,” adopts a “poststructuralist feminist perspective” to “examine why the feminization inherent in management writing is not named,” and “demonstrates” that [all of] “management theorizing is not gender neutral.”

    What I see as key to this is that the feminist re-theorizer (who, significantly, admits to being a “revisionist”– she uses the verb “to revise”) isn’t the slightest bit interested in what males have written on the topic. She is only examining the materials because they’ve been written by a female and have, she claims, a female cast and hue. And she’s interested in stitching them into a new theory, which she will apply to both males and females in the workplace.

    BUT, o sin of sins, the female writer of the source material has overlaid a female theory (according to our feminist) upon male group theory, but failed to label it “feminist” or “female.”
    So the author goes into the stuff to reclaim it as a uniquely female epistemology and claims that it provides the basis for uniquely feminist theories of organization.
    Feminists do this all the time: if male culture or social systems contain anything they deem ‘feminine’ why, it doesn’t belong to any male, and it’s picked up like driftwood on a beach to be varnished and mounted in feminism’s new canon.
    So what do we have here? A select cherrypicking of culture that a) solves the content quota for things feminine; b) disposseses men of their own traditions, and c) can be used to patch together a “feminized” and Brave new world.
    Would be interested to hear of any other thoughts you had.

    • mccrorie

      I must admit if I ever met someone who acted like that theory guru I would probably laugh out loud and assume that they were joking…

      So, ok… now I’m wondering about the origin and content of these ‘cultural’ and ‘traditional’ qualities attributed the to feminine that have apparently been silently co-opted into a male dominated managerial culture. Couldn’t those qualities simply have been mere gender constructs socially imposed on women by the big mean patriarchy? Are they biologically female as distinct from male? This is where I become confused with the issue. I imagine something like a continuum – from biologically distinct through to ‘blank slate with gender construct stamped on top’ – and some feminists, as you said, cherry-picking ideas from within this continuum and constructing a feminised (but not necessarily feminine!?) world-view. From what I gather, this world-view necessarily supports or is supported by the concept of a male/female oppressor/oppressed historical dynamic, as this is central to the desire (need?) to be doing this kind of feminist re-visioning in the first place…

  • justicer

    Very very acute observations.
    First, we couldn’t laugh out loud; we’d have all been in trouble with the Bosslady. Second, a gentleman doesn’t laugh at a lady…well, you know the rest.
    So we all went back to our cubicles and fumed and fumed….in silence.
    All except the female employees, who we understood later were tipped off by the female manager about the new orders and how they’d be delivered to the group.
    As for your very keenly put questions about “social organization,” etc. the answer is not available as settled theory. However, it is true that females do not tend to approach group work the way men do, which is why the feminization of the public school system is so poisonous to boys. We can speculate that that is biologically based, a trace of inherited biological memory. On the other hand, I never met a competent female who couldn’t overcome that inherited habit, and just stop yakking when the discussion was over, and get the job done and be happy about it.
    Don’t forget, gender-feminism is 100% Utopian, whilst it yet schemes and militates for the disruption of existing civilizations.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/RockingMrE?feature=mhee Rocking Mr. E

    Fidelbogen, your logical analysis of how to stop feminists using their age old NAFALT trickery is both entertaining and enlightening to read.

    Good job!

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      I’m glad you enjoyed it.

      BTW. . I am working on the script for that video project we discussed. ;)

  • Howard

    Great article here Fidelbogen. And as an example of being forced to expose their true soul- this ruling in Israel tipped their hand in what many men here already knew, but now the world gets to see: Telling men they are not needed, unless they are handing out cash.
    http://www.israelnewsagency.com/childcustodybiasdiscriminationlawrepealedremovedisraelfamilycourtdivorceyaakovneemanschnitcommiitteejointchildrenunnaamatwizopasalienationfalsechildabusesocialworkersfathersjustice48012012.html

    • justicer

      Very interesting, Howard, particularly the business of getting the UN to investigate.
      Now, where are our Swedes and Canadians?

  • Not buying it

    The statement ” feminism is the radical notion that women are people”
    had lost it’s value & legitimacy long time ago, yet it’s still thrown around as if anybody is against the idea of women being people,
    the real statement as i perceive it is:
    “feminism is the radical notion that women are forever victims”
    until a semi-communist gynocracy is created full stop (a feminist dream).