Do Men Really have Equal Rights?
It is a question I really never thought of until recently. It was just jast week, in fact, that I was sitting in a court room waiting for my 18 year old son’s hearing to end. He was taken to court to pay child support for a child he did not want and did not agree to have, who he was, in fact, tricked into fathering by a dishonest young woman. Unfortunately, he was the “winner” of the paternity test (We were told it could have been one of three boys). I told my son he wasn’t a winner at all, because being the winner of the DNA test he just lost everything that he doesn’t even have yet.
Image courtesy of MenZ Magazine
While waiting in the filled court room, I sat there alone with my thoughts and worries about what was about to happen. Since he is 18 years old, I wasn’t allowed to sit with him. He is considered an adult in the eyes of the court. An 18 year old boy with braces on his teeth, a sweet smile, and who still enjoys watching cartoons in the morning. As an adult, he is uneducated, underemployed, and naive enough to be duped by a pretty girl; damn, he doesn’t even have his driver’s license yet.
Millions of things were going through my head that day, but I was mainly thinking that I just wanted it to be over. Perhaps to escape, I was daydreaming about things I would rather be doing whenI heard his name being called.
And just like that the judge orders him to pay $759.46 per month plus $10,000 retro for the first year, plus court fees. I shook my head thinking I must have fallen asleep and was now in a nightmare. I had to gather myself together. I then whispered to an older man sitting beside me. “Did she just say $759.00 a month?” The man turned to me and said, “Yes, that dude must have a whole bunch of kids.”
Sitting there in a room full of strangers, all from different walks of life, I felt more helpless than I have ever felt before. I felt powerless to defend my child. I stood up quickly and yelled “wait a minute there must be a mistake,” though I think I remember uttering some swear words in the process. I said,” this is wrong, how can this happen? “ My son only works part time if he is lucky. He hardly makes enough money to survive himself. Now he was just ordered to pay this much a month for a child he never agreed to have?
There was yelling from the bench and I was ordered to sit down and be quite. I continued to demand an explanation. The judge pounded her gavel on the bench and ordered me out of her court room. I turned to my son son and said, ” let’s go. ” The judge shouted back at me, ” He is not going anywhere- I am not done with him yet. He leaves when I tell him to leave.” As two deputies were walking towards me, I replied to her, ” You are more than done with him. He is coming with me. Go ahead and try to stop me.” I looked at my son and he looked scared to death; not sure which one of us he should listen too.
Where are his rights?
A woman has the right to abort, adopt, or abandon her baby and there are no consequences for her decisions. A woman can have an abortion and no one can force her to keep the baby regardless of the father’s feelings. A woman is allowed to leave her baby in a safe place and walk away with no questions asked. A woman has the right to give her child up for adoption. It’s wonderful our country gives woman such liberties. I am a woman and I am grateful I have these rights.
Why aren’t men given these same rights?
Why are men forced to be fathers when they don’t want to be? Why are men forced to pay child support for a child they did not want to have? Why are men allowed to be tricked into being a father? Why are men being punished for having sex?
There are many women who have lied or tricked the man so she would get pregnant. Because she wants a baby to love her, and she wants someone else to pay for it. Where is the woman’s responsibility? Shouldn’t we, as women, be responsible for our own bodies? Shouldn’t that come with all these rights we have? Shouldn’t we be the ones to reap the consequences if we get pregnant while we are single? I hear it so often about unwed women saying they are against abortion for religious reasons. Well, what about them having sex before getting married? They weren’t thinking about God then- were they?
Feminism claims to promote the idea that women have the same equal rights as men.
From Wikipedia ~ In the subsequent decades women’s rights again became an important issue in the English speaking world. By the 1960s the movement was called “feminism” or “women’s liberation.” Reformers wanted the same pay as men, equal rights in law, and the freedom to plan their families or not have children at all.
OK, if this is all about equality, then where are men’s reproductive rights?
I want to see CHANGE, and I am prepared to fight for it. We need equal rights to be equal for both men and women. The system is unfair. Furthermore, the ridiculously high child support orders on impoverished men in this country is a form of slavery. And that is exactly what the courts are doing to my young son. They are turning him into a slave- and allowing the woman who deceived him become his master- his owner.
Courts that are supposed to find just solutions are now the main cause of the problem. The child support orders not only set financial expectations too high to meet, but it also forces young men to become criminals, and some even commit suicide. We criminalizing an entire class of human beings, and ignoring the real criminals who are behind all this.
Women can get off their butts, put their children in daycare, and get a job.
As long as we have “My body, my choice,” shouldn’t we also have “my responsibility,” as well?
Beth Lang is an American mother whose son was duped into becoming a father without his consent. Because of this, she has decided to dedicate her life to publicly challenging the corrupt system that enables the fraud. Her efforts to advocate on behalf of her son and all young men will be chronicled exclusively here, at avoiceformen.com.
Tags: Beth Lang, Family Court, Fathers, Feminism, Men, Men's Issues, Men's Rights
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Patrice Stanton:
Fredrik:
98abaile:
100%Cotton:
Many kudos to you, Beth, for joining this fight. Because you have a son to whom this is happening, you know firsthand what kind of political, economic, legal & social atmosphere permeates the Western world today. Seeing is believing. The more female allies like you who fight by our side, the better chance we have of overthrowing the feminist hegemony. A thousand swings of an ax will fell a mighty oak!
I applaud your honor to do this for your son and others as this truly fraud and negligence from a broken system and corrupt court workers abusing the people before them and their oath of office! ken krajewski save our kids parental alienation foundation @ http://www.fatherwithoutchristmas.com
Beth, my heart goes out to your boy.
Ladies and gentlemen, I have said it in many articles at Strike The Root, and I’ll say it again: You must find your own individual way to quietly, peacefully get up from the table government has set and walk away. That judge should be shunned by all decent people. If it didn’t put Beth in prison for saying it, we should all learn “Her Honor’s” name, what town she lives in, and have a picture of her.
Gentlemen, you must always use a condom with a woman you are not having children with, and take it with you when you leave, so that the semen does not remain behind. It’s awful that a healthy young man cannot enjoy his first sexual encounters without one, but I really feel it is impossible at this late date to ever do without.
Beth, I really wish there was some tip I could give you to fight the court’s bullshit. I hope you get good advice. Maybe someone will post something here. I will recommend this article to some other websites for a possible link.
It’s nice to see a woman agreeing with what we’ve been saying all along on this issue: that men have no reproductive rights and the government and court system don’t seem to care. All they seem to care about is aiding more of these “welfare queens” that seem to know the system will take responsibility for their poor behavior despite the fact that they’re the ones who get all choice in the matter.
Here’s my problem though: Most women only tend to step up and talk about this when it begins affecting them personally in a negative way when they have their very own sons facing the injustice of things like paternity fraud, “oops” pregnancies and divorce courts. Now you finally see. Why the reluctance to agree with us before?
Right there, in the court rooms of the western world, you can see pure evil at work in all its ugliness. Those places should be burned to the ground and their resident servants horse-whipped through the streets and thrown in jail. Starting with this despicable so-called judge.
That should just be the beginning. Those who have created this evil should also be pilloried and punished.
Beth, you can play a role as everyone can. Begin by asking every politician who wants your vote, what they intend to do about the evil in these courts, and the denial of fair reproductive rights to men. If they don’t give you an answer that satisfies you, tell them that they will not get your vote and that you will campaign actively to ensure they don’t get elected.
Be sure to carry out that threat and make it a reality.
Don’t stop until we win.
Good luck to you and your son Beth.
White Rider, that’s what I meant when I said “Seeing is believing.”
Thank you all for the comments. I am in this to win this…. It may not help my son directly, but hopefully change something for the next guy who gets screwed over by a women, you know there will be many many more.
This does affect me personally. I must say I had no idea of the severity my son was facing. If I had known of the unequal treatment men receive, I would have told my son to run far far away!
Sadly, I can not afford to get him the legal representation he needs. But when your child looks into your eyes and tells you, “mom my life is over, I might as well die.” (very painfully there is truth to his statement) I am learning to do everything myself. Most importantly, get the information out to others who are uninformed, like I was. Appeals Court here we come, Dr. Phil ~ get ready for me, Supreme Court I can’t wait!!! I need all the support I can get!
It’s important to note that it’s not really “women” in general that we’re really talking about here. It’s the bias in society and media as well as the corrupt legal system which facilitates and often encourages these abuses.
You have 40+ years of man=bad, woman=good drilled into the head of society at large which creates a systematic bias against men in just about every part of society. You couple that with laws that have been changed over to a completely gynocentric standard and it’s a recipe for injustice and abuse of men. Feminists have pushed these “values” on the entirety of society and this is now what we have as a result.
If the law were just here in your situation, men would have the appropriate reproductive rights and be able to opt out of unplanned pregnancies like this due to the fact that women get all of the choices and control when it comes to everything post-conception. Technology has progressed to the point where women only get pregnant and have children when they WANT to. There are no mistakes. Instead, the system punishes men for having sex and rewards poor behavior from women like this girl.
Gentlemen, as I shall point out in another article, and as I have stated in different words with previous articles, men are creatures primarily of action. It is women who constantly discuss. It’s time for us to get off our asses.
Beth, you are quite rare and beautiful. You saw immediately and clearly what was wrong, and you wish to set it right. Let me be the first to set an example for man-hating feminists everywhere. If you are willing, please PM me (brmerrick@optonline.net), so that I can contribute via PayPal to your son’s defense. If you’re more willing, please post your e-mail here so that other men’s activists, male and female, may also contribute. This needs to be fought, and it needs to be fought primarily in zeta-male fashion.
Gentlemen, brothers, lawyers are expensive. They can afford to be expensive because the supply of lawyers is artificially low (which artificially increases demand), and also because a coercive, death-oriented institution sets the rules, thereby making it that much more difficult to figure out their sickening game plan (which further increases the costs). Let us show expensive lawyers and an uncaring bureaucracy what volitional behavior can do.
Please contribute to Mr. Lang’s defense.
screw the lawyers, time to shut the system down with non-violent protest. it worked for blacks and gays but every guy I tried to enlist to barricade the family courts backed out.
it’s not rocket science, just block the courtroom with bodies. they don’t have enough jail cells or FEMA camps to hold all the men whose lives have been destroyed.
I feel bad for you, Beth. I don’t have much advice. The first thing that comes to mind is he may have to sign up for the military for twenty years. The Air Force or Coast Guard if he doesn’t want to be in the front lines. By the time he retires he’ll still be a young man and his child support will be over.
Good luck and God Bless.
Perhaps it could be considered that F4J are doing just what the suffergettes did about 100 years ago, all that is happening is a redress of balance when the female ideal has gone too far. My modest reseach suggests that on the whole in work and public life women are pretty equal in the eyes of the law and certainly equally capable of causing abuse to their kids so from a Family court perspective it is time parents are seen as equal and they may just discover some really good das are being alienated from their kids when it may be “in the child’s best interest” if this sometimes happened to the mother!
@ Lone Wolf
I certainly agree with you in general principle. It is time, as B.R. would say, to shrug a lot of things.
But I encourage individuals facing their doom to do what they need to do to find as much relief as is realistically possible to them. After all, it is easy for me to just say “screw the lawyers” when it is not me personally that might pay dearly for that decision.
Seems to me that we should set up a defense fund for disenfranchised men in general. We might also want to consider a fund for men who want to go to school for male studies or who want to become male-oriented lawyers or paralegals. I’ll pledge 10 percent of my gross income (not much atm, sadly) on a monthly basis to such a fund.
I’m not certain that lending my name to such a cause would help it, but if such a fund were established and it was deemed acceptable, I will compose letters and begin to canvass corporations and private citizens for donations. Even elite males must recognize that the wholesale destruction of men is not to their benefit.
this article should be required reading for high school and college males
French Foreign Legion. Your son is eighteen and (hopefully) in good physical shape, it sucks but its the best option for him that I can see.Leaving your old life behind and joining the military might suck, but its better than the slavery he has been sentenced to.
Excellent article, I hope the ‘exclusivity’ part doesn’t mean no republishing at a later time… ?
I wish I could drum up a ton of sympathy for you and your son. I really do. But I’ve heard this exact same story, over and over, every single day, for years on end. I have heard quite literally thousands of such stories, as have most MRAs that I know. And there are likely millions more I have heard nothing about.
Depressing no?
But, what you might take heart from, is that the ‘timing’ of this case is actually pretty good. I know it doesn’t sound sane for me to say that, but consider:
Things are changing rapidly these days. Not very long ago (as in, two, MAYBE three years ago) you couldn’t even get a Letter to the Editor critical of Feminism or the Family Courts published. There was complete and utter Media silence on everything Mens Issues related, and there was extreme reluctance to publish anything remotely resembling our views.
What killed this was the ‘comments’ section on stories that newswebs began to implement. They couldn’t censor those, and thus HAD to at least pay lip service. Which is making talk of mens issues more and more acceptable.
The long and short of it is this:
We are comparatively close to getting this crap not only stopped, but I believe reversed as well. There is nothing saying we can’t push for the retroactive application of mens rights, and by then the whole ‘best interests of the children’ scam will be proven the fraud that it is…equal human rights are something you could assume will be ‘Grandfathered’ in.
Which means that, unlike many here already, your son is likely NOT going to be subject to a complete lifetime of servitude. You should keep this in mind when he’s feeling like nothing’s going to get better.
We’ve made MASSIVE strides in the last 2 years….and things are snowballing. Keep your chin up..
By the way, glad you liked the cartoon Paul.
Thank you ~ Thank you ~ Thank you too all you Guys! Your comments give me the strengthen I need. I have actually lost some female friends when I have told them about my mission. Really no loss at all. It just reminds me of why they have bad marriages, pray for their husbands! Reading all of your comments gives me the courage to continue when several have tried to bring me down.
B.R. Merrick thank you so much for your generous offer. right4tyler@hotmail.com ~ I was using my personal email too communicate with others, but I received a few not so nice messages from the men haters!
Just FYI ~ Student loans or grants would go to the mother…. Any military sign on bonus would go to the mother, you have to agree, it doesn’t give any man much ambition to do either. However, we are not giving up!
Let’s not forget that none of the money will be left for the child. After the shopping sprees at the mall, nail & hair salon, tanning bed, tattoos, i-phone, should I continue? The poor babies are in the same clothes as they wore the day before.
I hope you all are standing with me when I get ready for Washington!!!
Beth,
Here is another women to join your cause. I have numerous examples of my husbands own discriminated against journey in the wonderful world of parenting. However, I need a book to write it all down.
Want you to know that there are other women out there who do agree with all you are saying.
It is time that men have a say when it comes to being a father or not being a father. Women have all the power and it is time for CHANGE!
Please let me know what I can do to help.
Elaine
Beth, I am terribly sorry your son is going through this ordeal.
Any military sign on bonus would go to the mother, you have to agree, it doesn’t give any man much ambition to do either.
Not only this but the military pay allotment system can make it extremely easy for a woman to get her hands on additional child support and a myriad of other issues. This in addition to all of the other risks and problems involved with signing on that dotted line.
If your son does look into the military route, the Coast Guard, Navy or Air Force may provide more opportunities and less military style slavery than the other branches.
@ Factory
Liked it so much I shamelessly stole it.
It rocks.
It’s not as if we’ve never had reproductive rights either. That’s what marriage essentially was. When we men got married, we were agreeing to become parents – before then, we had no legal obligation to support whatever children were born out of wedlock – and nor should we have had.
It’s no co-incidence that this fundamental meaning of marriage – a man giving his consent to parent – has been buried under all manner of other obscure meanings in order to hide it, and that courts started issuing child support orders to unmarried men at the same time. While women clamored for greater reproductive rights, men’s were simply taken away from them to accommodate.
It was an act of outright theft, carried out right under our noses.
So, what happened next? Did you get maced, handcuffed, and hauled away for contempt of court? I’ve spent a lot of time in family court, and judges don’t take well to anyone yelling at them. I hope your son made the right decision and ignored you and paid attention to the judge.
I’m looking forward to seeing a copy of the support order in a future posting. I agree with the older man sitting next to you. $759/month for *one* child means they’re imputing an yearly income way above $50,000/year. States tend to have statutory guidelines, with limited judicial discretion allowed.
Did you have a lawyer?
Too bad you had too wait for your son to get screwed over.
Given your age, you were at the “heart” of the sexual revolution of the past few decades.
Millions of good men got screwed… and women like you stayed silent, until it was your SON that got screwed in the end.
As a man whose gone through it all… I’m glad you woke up, but I’m still not too impressed.
Thousands of years of oppression, and all that… why did it take until your son got screwed until you noticed?
They came for the men, but I was not a man, so I cared not.
Then they came for my son, and I said “Holy Crap! I didn’t mean my son!”
Good job, feminism!
To Rob,
Let me make myself clear too you.
No, I don’t have decades of knowing this has been happening, I am not old enough. I did not know, in fact I had no idea, what a problem this was for men. Don’t blame me, blame all the women that have come before me. Blame the bitches that do this to men every day. Blame the court system. Blame your parents for not telling you. It makes me sick to know women are having babies for profit, tricking men into impregnating them, squeezing every bit of life out of them.
If you read my post, which it clearly shows you did not, you would have known I want to make this change for all men not just for my son.
(“Thousands of years of oppression, and all that… why did it take until your son got screwed until you noticed?”)
because that is how life is, it takes something to rock your world before you start doing something about it…. I am not a man so how the hell you expect me to know things that do not directly involve me?
I am far from a feminist, this is really funny, thank you I need a good laugh. You don’t know me and don’t know my views and values, so before you judge me, know the whole story.
Furthermore, I didn’t write this to impress you. It is not my goal to impress you nor do I care. You should be happy a female wants to be a voice for men. Trust me when I tell you there are 1000′s of women like me who have no idea.
So stop feeling sorry for yourself. Stop holding a grudge towards all women. Let it go and you will have a happier life.
Understand I am on your side.
@Rob
You are correct about so much. Most women and men are happy to go along with all this injustice until it hurts them personally. The overwhelming majority of women are too complacent or feeling far too deliciously empowered to object to the injustice. And almost all men are too busy trying to make the best of it for themselves, with no regard for the destructive injustice that so viciously hurts so many other men.
I’ve said before that I’ve gone largely MGTOW. Just remember folks, when you work to put an end to the horror known as the government, you are sacrificing at least your time for other people, most of whom would do nothing to help you, and many of whom would walk all over you if they felt it was to their benefit.
People can call me bitter or whatever, what I’ve just stated strikes me as simple and obvious fact, as well as ultimately a route to happiness and peace. None of us will better ourselves or our positions by attempting to live in a fantasy world.
If you don’t look out for number one, no one will.
Underground economy. Never live with a woman. Never, never, never get a woman pregnant. Drop any delusions about being a father. There are mothers in this society, and then there are the men who are allowed around their biological children, or other men’s biological children, at the mothers’ whimsy.
MGTOW. (What the hell’s the emoticon for a raised first?)
@ Lirazel
Please tell me, what shade of brown is the shirt you wear to work, and does it match well with the black boots?
Your words and attitude are straight from the statist thug handbook.
Rot in hell.
@ Rob,
I understand your point but have to ask you, what makes her different than 99% of the population, both male and female, except that she is actually putting her life in to making a difference now?
And, as long as I am asking questions, what is it that you are doing to bring about change?
With you 100%
Lots of unkind words here. I apologize for my earlier sarcasm. Beth.
Having known many feminists way too intimately I have to say that it’s not good strategy to copy their tactics and paint all women with the same brush. I’ve been under attack by women many many times as a proxy for some abuse they thought they had received from some other man.
You offer women the freedom to be women and not ersatz men. Many women want to be released from feminism even though they’ve just recognized the cage they’re in. If you turn away women seeking safety and comfort or offering help when they come into your camp you’re just shooting yourself in the foot.
Thank you Beth, you have earned my absolute respect in knowing that you care about the future of your son. The truth is that this woman can no sit on her butt for the next 18 years and will never be expected to even bother getting a job. Even worse, she can continue to be promiscuous and make more babies to increase her income. However, if your son fall behind he’s going to jail.
My own mother, when I have tried to explain these things to her she just shrugs and says “that’s just the way things are”. I’m going to send her this article, but I really think she is intellectually dishonest, likes femininine privilige and is willing to sacrifice her own son.
Paying for lawyers, big court battles…you’re going to lose and give them exactly what they want…you money! It will only leave you broke and broken to fight against a system that you can not win.
The real fight is in direct activism and targeting the politicians and supporters of this injustice.
Something that I just saw on Angry Harry’s site’s homepage, just above a link to this article. All of the following is from him:
Thought For The Moment
There is surely not a female in the country over the age of 12 who remains unaware of how easy it is to harm a man very severely by making a false accusation of ‘abuse’ against him. And all adult women have surely seen via the media how atrociously men are treated merely following such an accusation.
Most adult women will also be aware of how biased against men is the legal system when it comes to the family courts, and of how the educational system is nowadays also clearly failing men and boys. And educated women will certainly be aware of the fact that far more money is spent on women’s health than on men’s health; even when it comes to serious illnesses such as cancer.
Thus, most western women are well aware that their own sons, brothers, husbands and fathers are being subjected to gross unfairness.
And yet they say and do nothing. Indeed, most of them seem to support what is going on.
Perhaps, therefore, you men out there should learn something from this.
Your own mother, your sister, your wife, your girlfriend: Does she support what is being done to you, or what could be done to you?
Well, unless she has said otherwise, then she probably does.
@ Anti Idiocy: Yes, any woman in Canada can have a free breast reduction if she complains of back pain but men are left to die in the dirt. True, that.
But, do you think that most men are aware of how easy it is for them to be harmed severely? People are not often critical of the cultures they are born into. They don’t question. Questioning frequently contravenes survival. So is it possible that many people, many women, are guilty not of complicity but of ignorance?
Although, not too long ago, I walked into a mental health drop-in center and noticed with amazement that almost all of the clients were men. This was the beginning of my own eye-opening. I had thought that misandry was a feature of leftist society, not society in general. I asked a woman social worker why there were so few women at the center. She answered that “women deal differently,” a very unsatisfactory answer of which with her training she must have been aware.
Beth, if you want to help, here is a start. About a year ago, I participated in a discussion on the Plenty of Fish forum regarding this same issue. The thread went over fifty pages, but eventually died out because it simply deteriorated into a gender war. If you want to start making a difference, join the site and start posting to that thread:
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts3269547.aspx
Wow. Angry Harry really MUST be angry.
From the things I see, a vast majority of women really are that clueless. Heck, I know that I was. For me, it took my husband explaining to me exactly what he went through, and then my being witness to the sheer hell he went through that I never imagined people would even conceive of doing to another human. I had no clue whatsoever before then, and if I’d had no experience of it, I doubt I’d have a clue now.
Sure, it was naive, to believe that everyone was treated the same way. Naivety is not the same as openly agreeing to abuse or abusing ourselves.
Having said which… more women need to be actively shown exactly how men are being treated differently. They need to realise that it shouldn’t be “the way it is” when a man gets screwed over for masses of child support or alimony (although I’m not sure of anywhere other than the US that has alimony, but the concept still stands – women get alimony, meaning that the men they divorced have to pay for the womans way of life to the mens detriment). As shown in recently document leakages, in the UK judges are specifically taught that they have to give men harsher judgements than women. At what time should this be considered right?
Years ago, women fought for equality. Things swung too far in the opposite direction. I’m only hoping that in mens fight for equality, they get what they’re asking for: equality. That includes the media and society in general no longer being able to put them down continually, and accuse men of things like sexual abuse simply because they’re male. The amount of ads I see on TV which demonise men because domestic violence seems to only be men beating up women. When you see things like whip marks on a mans back because he was a boy, and boys should be able to handle a little bullying at school… it isn’t right. No girl would have gone through that. I can’t even imagine a school deliberately withholding asthma medication from a girl in the school because the bullies might take the medicine off her. Then again, I couldn’t imagine a school withholding medicine from a boy, either.
Until changes are made, boys and men will be forced to pretty much live on the streets, because that’s the only way they can get away with NOT getting themselves torn a whole new one by simply “getting by” while paying child support. Until changes are made, women will be able to accuse as many men as they want of sexual abuse, and get convictions against them because in a “him against her” war, she’ll win every time. Until then, custody battles will continue to have children going to women who are abusers, simply because the mothers have more rights. Until then, men will continue to be arrested in a domestic violence situation, even when the police come in and find the woman beating the guy in front of them.
The more women that know the reality of what is happening, the more likely that the inequality will right itself, and the sooner, the better.
I agree with everything the author wrote.
Hopefully, the sons of egotistical feminists are going to be trapped the same way.
Your son’s situation is completely screwed and I can emphathize with you. However, a couple years ago I read about an even more bizarre case. This was a boy who at the age of 14 was the victim of statutory rape. He was also the victim of paternity fraud as he was duped into believing the child was his. he wanted to do the responsible thing so he got a parttime job after school and gave his meager earnings to the mother to support the child. he even visited whenever she would allow it. When he turned 18 and could leaglly be sued, she sued him for child support. His attorney requested and was granted a DNA test for paternity. Turns out that the kid was not the father. The woman had been living with the father since the child was born. None of this mattered to the court. The boy had “held the child out as his own” and was therefore “legally” the father of the child. He was ordered to pay support in an amount that was more than what he was earning. He was forced to forego college and work two jobs while living at his mother’s house to make the payments. So he was not only raped as a child, the court ordered that the rape continue for another 18 years.
TDOM
Link please.
I support some sort of right to terminate fatherhood outside of a marriage.
I don’t support it within marriage. And before anyone says anything: yes , marriage laws need reformed to make divorce harder for one person to unilaterally initiate. But marriage is “stepping up to the plate” and I feel it wouldn’t be fair to either partner in a marriage to give their sex a “get out of your kids life” free pass.
Dear Beth,
Thankyou for your support and am sorry to learn about what your son and you had to go through but you know what they say…’Its a Mans world’,..so welcome to the Pain … LOL!!
I had always wondered that if Women were oppressed at any time.. it was clear that our Fathers and Grand Fathers and their Father took ‘Pride’ in taking a stand for them and supporting them at gaining equality,…but then on their way Men had happend to fall on the other side of the boundry,..doesnt that make it a responsibility of our Mothers and sister to help us take a stand and fight for our rights that we have lost on our way FOR YOU ALL?!! or should they as well be able to say
“It is not my goal to impress you nor do I care.” ..and walk away?!!
wondered how cold could a Woman be…to look into her very Sons eyes knowing all of that he will eventually have to go through in a couple of years and still maintain a silence… Ignoring his rights.
Atleast most Men couldnt be so cold in those days.. and the good thing news is some women like you arent either in the present times. I hope there are more women like you out there who can see the oppression againt men ,.. regardless of the fact,..that its your son or your Neighbours or your sisters son or anybody son for that reason !!
Thankyou yor your support for the bottom of my heart and i shall hope and Pray that you and your son find justice and not only that but you through sharing such/these articles and experiences will eventually be an eye opener for other Mothers around and be a part of a good change in this world.
I wish you both all the luck and Thank-You again and again.
@ Theodore
I couldn’t find the article for the story I wrote about. It’s been a couple years and I have no idea where I saw it. however, I did find a few articles about male victims of statutory rape being ordered to pay child support to their rapists. It seems it’s standard procedure and not at all uncommon.
Here are the links
http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberthirtysix.htm
http://fact.on.ca/news/news0303/mnd030311.htm
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/08/16/janecrane.ART_ART_08-16-08_B1_T0B1RSR.html?sid=101
TDOM
this is for you Tyler ~ I love you!
@ TDOM:
So, according to one of the links you provided a fifteen-year-old boy can be seen as a willing victim of statutory rape and be held responsible for the resulting pregnancy in family court. So if men are raped by women they can still be held responsible for the pregnancy?
That’s one of the most disgusting things I’ve ever read. No exaggeration.
I would like to find out more about this. I want to find out EXACTLY how widespread this is. Can anyone give me suggestions (I’ve never researched a legal topic before) or should I just ask a law librarian?
@ TDOM
If you ever choose to write an article about his for your blog, I would also love to run it here with your permission.
This is one of the most egregious examples of cultural misandry around. Really sickening.
Beth: I’m with you. I have no sons, but I do have a friend whose son is paying $900.00 a month~ with a ‘woman’ who is LIVING WITH HIM. He bought a house, and she told her friends he bought HER a house…and is basically squatting. After going through the court system to force his visitation rights, and putting him and his parents through pure He**, she somehow manipulated him to get back with the her. She is lazy, doesn’t work (going to ‘school’ supposedly), slovenly and hateful to him and his parents (except when she wants a free babysitter). She acts as though he is her subject, not her partner.
When asked why he is still with her, he states, “That way, I get to see [my son] anytime I want.” How sad that that is the ONLY reason he is with someone who treats him like garbage. She uses their child as a pawn. She does nothing all day, not even work on potty training nor the boy’s basic medical needs.
It’s sickening – that little boy will most likely grow up to be attracted to women just like his psycho ‘mother’, and hence pass it on to yet one more generation. What a world we live in.
@Sam:
Welcome, and thanks for your support.
The Men’s Right’s Movement is the response to one specific aspect of governments’ encroachment on the lives of men; illegitimate force used against men in the name of women. We call it the MRM, but it really has little to do with begging for government-approved and maintained ‘rights’ nor is it actually a coalesced movement. It is a term not used out of accuracy, but of convenience. As such, it’s impossible to state a single agenda, but I can say that most of what you wrote misunderstands the intentions of almost all the men and women I have observed participating in the MRM.
The MRM is not the opposite of feminism, seeking to merely push back against the policies of feminism until equilibrium is reached. The feminists themselves are incapable of abstractly envisioning a society in which men and women are treated equally, much less how to actually achieve it. Neither can the best minds of the MRM, either. Most of us understand it to be a foolish endeavor to expend massive amounts of resources to artificially engineer a goal that would be of profit only to our vanity.
I also reject the notion that women ever “fought for equality.” In an actual battle where women (as a class) are opposed to men (as a class), women must lose every time. In the current situation, consider what would happen if men tried to ‘fight’ women directly. Who would interpose on their behalf?
Feminism’s impetus arises not from women themselves, but governments. Nearly every problem spoken about in the MRM is the direct result of governments’ policies and tyrannical abuse of power. Many men are angry with women and finger them, in and of themselves, as the cause of all this, but I believe they are off the mark.
Things will change, but it will not be because organizations of men have formed to oppose feminism. Feminism ends when the governments of the West collapse because of the debt games they have played in order to paper over the massive declines in productivity that have come about due to insanely uneconomic policies, feminism being premier among them.
I appreciate your belief that women ought to know what’s happening to men, but, and I hate to say it, the opinions of the mass of women on these issues truly doesn’t matter. Women are benefiting from governments’ social and economic abuses, and are in fact required to participate in them as mercenaries that give the excuse for these policies to be enacted in the first place. They experience a false independence from their families and from men.
I have no expectation that women will willingly and intentionally support the diminution of their illegitimately elevated status. On the contrary, I see that most women think their lives aren’t currently good enough and that women still don’t have enough power. The MRM’s view that women need to have less government-backed coercive power over the lives of men is not going to catch on with women. It’s foolish to even try, and I suspect that an acknowledgement of this fact is why I have not seen the MRM put much emphasis on it.
The primary goal of the MRM is to stop uniformed men from committing atrocities against decent men in the name of protecting women from bad men.
@ Sam, Elaine, Kari and all other females (who don’t hate men)…. I just started the WFMRM = WOMEN FOR MEN’S RIGHT’S MOVEMENT ~ PLEASE JOIN ME!!!! I have a plan but it is still in the works~ my email is ~ rights4tyler@hotmail.com
Any of you gentlemen throw me your ideas…. especially those involved in the MRM!!!
please no hate emails ~ I haven’t given out a good old fashion ass whopping in a while so I am over due and I do have a lot of frustration to be released.
@ Eincrou
Clever comment.
Hi Beth,
I’m so saddened to see what has happened to your son. Here is an interesting question: would you and him be prepared to fight for custody of that child? I am not saying that is the right answer (having been bought up in a family where I knew totally that any child of mine was my responsibility), but it strikes at the fundamental heart of the situation:
This young woman was irresponsible enough to become pregnant and was irresponsible enough to not know out of three men which was the biological father. Makes her pretty damn unfit as a parent to me! This child could be raised in an extended family with aware and responsible people caring for it and optimising its physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health.
I often say once discussing feminism with others I am a reminant of the second wave of feminism i.e. the model prior to the man hating, all rights and no responsibility attitudes of the third wave.
My Mum was a second wave proponent so I grew up in the environment where I knew that my reproductive health, my psychological and intellectual health were my own responsibility as well as my right to express. My paternal great-grandmother was a sufragette, so I have a pedigree to live up to…and will get out on polling day with influenza and/or jetlag to vote because I know the sacrifices made by the women of the first wave.
I know because of some work I did with a reproductive health organisation, that some women are raped and abused by their partners. I also know through loving a man who has been in an abusive marriage that women can and do abuse men. As for some of the abuse I have recieved from other women for being “different”, well you have my empathic support on the kinds of nasty emails you would be likely to get from mysandrogenous women…
Helen
Fight and never give up have your son and your self check out some of these link for males rights group http://mensnewsdaily.com/ and the National center for men this group tried to push a case through the courts called ROE V’S WADE for men http://www.nationalcenterformen.org/page7.shtml
@ Helen
We will fight for custody only as a last resort to force adoption on the family. (I am sure that would back fire if we were to do it at this point)
@ John
Thank you! I have been in touch with Mel from the NCM.
A big thanks goes to Paul and Mel for their support. Not sure I could be so agressive without the two of them!
So the next time some loudmouth comes in here babbling about how there’s no room for women in the MRM, let’s jam this one down his throat.
God bless you, Beth, and God bless your son. You will win one way or the other.
@ Paul
“If you ever choose to write an article about his for your blog, I would also love to run it here with your permission.”
I am considering it. I’ve got a short break from school coming up and a couple of partially completed articles to finish, but I think this topic is very worthy of writing about. And yes, I would be honored to have you run it here.
TDOM
@ Theodore
That is extremely disgusting. The entire concept of statutory rape is premised on the idea that below a certain age a person is not mentally capable of giving consent. Yet it appears that courts believe that a boy CAN give consent although he is incapable of consenting. The double standard is unbelieveable.
if you want to research an article, think up every search term you can and statrt Googling them. Look for credible sources that refer to scientific studies or are otherwise trustworthy. I used “rape” and “child support” to find the above sources.
TDOM
As I have been investigating this issue, I have found some cases that are very disturbing. Young men who are raped then ordered to pay child support for the child, it is disgusting.
Sperm donors ordered to pay child support ~ men who are not even the biological father having to pay child support.
This will shock you… I found a case where a wife cheated on her hubby & she got pregnant with the other man’s baby. The husband was ordered to pay child support because he was married to her at the time…. WTF!!!
In Florida, if a woman says you are the father of her baby and you do not object in any way, even without a DNA test the court deems you the father. Then support is ordered. What happens if the man has moved, or the letter gets thrown out? It will take him years to overturn the courts order.
This is a major problem ~ the courts do not give a shit about men. They don’t care who pays the support as long as it gets paid. The system is all screwed up!
Yeah. Here in the “manosphere” we’ve already really covered all possible angles of paternity fraud where the man isn’t the father but is often forced to pay anyway to death.
The court’s contention seems to be that if you aren’t automatically suspicious of all women and you refrain from getting a DNA test immediately that you somehow have no right to complain. This is all-too-common with men who are married or in long-term relations. They find themselves raising another man’s child for years and then because the mother’s deception was successful for that long, the courts say he has to pay even when the DNA test says that some or NONE of the children are his.
The other problem where if you’re married to a woman all children are automatically assumed yours is a hundreds of years old law that dates back to the Victorian era where if a man found his wife cheating he could throw her out penniless and choose WHICH children he believed were legitimate and throw the rest out with her. Obviously not true now where he’s the one who gets thrown out of his own house even though he can prove they aren’t his and then gets his wallet taken from him on the way out. This is how the law is here in Canada and I cannot tell enough guys I know to not get married. I just can’t tell enough of them to not do it because of how disgusting the laws are.
The most depressing is the bulk of the statistic about how common this is. Low estimates say 10% of all children. Generally it’s between 20% and 30% of children, or 1 in 5 to 1 in 3 in the statistics. This is epidemic.
Courts don’t care that these men were deceived and never would have agreed to “act as father” as they say as claim to his “obligation” to pay up. Even though, had these men the the knowledge when the child was born that any children were not theirs they almost certainly would never have “acted as father.”
A man’s world indeed.
I’m glad that there are other women that are helping to fight for men’s rights.
Sorry about what you are having to go through. Many women are taking advantage of men and leaving them out to dry.
I hope your son gets justice and that everything goes well.
Feminism and the family courts need to be brought down and destroyed.
MRM is the only way we can defeat these fools.
Hi there.
I agree with all you guys have been saying, but I always try to see the argument from all sorts of views.
What worries me is… what happens when some young horny teenage boy trying to get into some girls knickers says, “Hey baby, if you get knocked up, don’t worry, i’ll take care of it” and ends up getting her knocked up, then denying it. He can say “I never said…” and she’ll be stuck with a kid she can’t raise either. (like that’s never happened…)
So how do we find the balance? The Equality?
Well, as things stand right now in regards to available contraceptives, better sex education is what you could do if men had actual reproductive rights (they don’t). Teaching girls that they not only have all of the post-conception choices (abort, adopt, and abandon in some areas) but also the contraceptives that work well and should really be told to use them if they’re having sex like boys are usually told to use condoms. I’m pretty sure that regular birth control pills are free in most developed countries. Hopefully a male pill is available soon, but I’m not holding my breath.
I had better education about the risks and how the processes all work as an 11 year old than most kids get today because of the nonsense that is “abstinence only” sex education, and it was all explained over the course of about 3 hours worth of class in my 6th year as an elementary student in Canada. It was kind of awkward to learn it at that age but I understood all about diseases and pregnancies and how badly a pregnancy could effect your future at a young age. Of course, this was in the mid 90s and it was always stressed about how it was the boys fault for some reason if it happened. You know, misandry and all.
“So how do we find the balance? The Equality?”
Procreation contracts for consent and then force them both to get a job and raise their child.
@RNB:
There is no balance or equality to be found. I’m not a historian, but as far as I know, the West is the first civilization to attempt to use government to assuage the inherent risks of promiscuity and casual sex. We refuse to allow people, especially (exclusively?) women, to bear the costs of risky sexual behavior.
There’s a term in finance called ‘moral hazard’ that describes this situation. When the costs of a risk are borne by people other than those engaging in the behavior, that situation increases the total damage of the risk. This was instrumental in leading to the 2008 financial crisis. Lending standards were lowered, or even ignored, because the lenders would securitize their bad mortgages, lie about their quality, and sell them to other suckers who would eat any potential losses stemming from borrowers’ inability to pay. The direct analogue is women failing to choose good mates because they simply don’t have to. In fact, if they fail in this task, they are given financial support and cultural adulation.
If we institute feel-good policies like child support, the net effect on human suffering is actually far greater than if nothing was done at all. The fundamental action is to lower the cost of a woman conceiving in high risk situations, such as is the case in casual sex, or with the fellow in your example. She can be certain that if things don’t work out, that cad will be forced to participate in alleviating her unfavorable outcome. This leaves women to follow their worst instincts and ignore the safe beta males who would love and support their children; enabling women to feel safe about their inherently risky behavior.
It’s certainly bad when men do not take care of their children, but in our efforts to minimize the harm of that, the effects of this policy have rippled through society, distorting behavior patterns that had previously been self-sustaining, long-term solutions to the challenge of effectively rearing children. We could call it unintended consequences, but I would call it another success of the social engineers using the power of knowledge and foresight to subjugate a once proud people.
The only self-sustaining, long-term, economical solution is for the girl in your example to not be interested in romps with questionable men. Any attempt to respond to the situation with mitigative action will just make more girls feel safe in taking on these risks.
We don’t have 40% out-of-wedlock births in the US because 40% of men don’t want to be fathers. The percentage of scum is far, far smaller, but the incentive structure makes having children outside of a stable relationship a more favorable option for women than the added responsibility of obligations to a man.
I haven’t heard this said much in the MRM, but I’m going to come out and say it: I am for the total abolition of the forcible transfer of wealth from fathers to mothers, aka child support. Not because I’m trying to create a perfect world for men at the expense of women and children, but because child support creates a massive, destructive distortion in the sexual marketplace that leads to women offering sex and their reproductive capacities to men who ought to receive neither. When that situation inevitably doesn’t work out, it gets blamed on the men in general and we are all made to bear the costs.
@Eincrou
“child support creates a massive, destructive distortion in the sexual marketplace that leads to women offering sex and their reproductive capacities to men who ought to receive neither.”
Ok so does this also apply to men whom women DO marry and later divorce, taking them for everything they’ve got and creating fatherless children? Are the 50% of divorced men (most of whom will be fathers) also underserving or is it just the 40% of unmarried fathers?
What about the boy in this story, he’s unmarried, so does that mean he is underserving of the girl’s “reproductive capacities”? Well, I gues he must be by YOUR reasoning since Beth wants her son to have right the to repudiate fatherhood.
One way or another the female is always let of the hook for her participation the JOINT act of having a child out of wedlock while young, dumb and broke. She is only indicted for poor mate selection, the man she selected completely written off as an uncaring “cad” and dehumanized to the point that he becomes a non-man who doesn’t a deserve access to a woman’s “reproductive capacity”.
I guess the only men deserving of that “priviledge” are – safe beta males who would love and support their children”. In other words, men who don’t mind enslaving themselves to women.
They BOTH had sex, which in and of itself is not a crime or even a bad thing, (providing both consented and are legally able to give consent. Why must THIS kid or any man who finds himself in this situation be instantly condemned as a perennial loser who plunders women’s “chastity” and then callously abandons them?
That’s clearly not what happened here. The ONLY pertinent CHOICE on the girl’s part was her choice of BEHAVIOUR – not MAN.
She clearly wasn’t looking to be married to a safe beta male who would love and support her child or to ANYONE else. She wanted to have sex and get pregnant. THAT to me is the only conduct that should be judged, because as YOU pointed out – that is the conduct which causes the most harm to all parties involved.
Furthermore – I find it almost sinister that some believe they are qualified to judge who is worthy or unworthy of a woman’s “reprodcutive capacity”. Women are free to give that to whomever they choose, and that WON’T change EVER.
I personally, would go super mangina to assist those who want to preserve that freedom for women should it ever come under threat.
I am only interested in seeing men get the same absolute control over their reproductive capacity that women enjoy over theirs. That is where the issue begins and ends for me.
I think the way to do that is to simply revive the old practice when a man was only deemed father if he expressly consented to fatherhood by marriage, and by transferring “ownership” of children in marriage BACK TO FATHERS.
I believe that would put an end to the kinds of predatory and parasitic female behaviour that end in stories like this, which most would rather ignore in their zeal to get even with those men who had the audacity to get a “lucky” shag.
Some men need to start thinking about what they’ll do when reproductive rights are balanced equally and women are forced to make “responsible” choices, but still didn’t choose them. What then?
@RNB
“He can say “I never said…” and she’ll be stuck with a kid she can’t raise either. (like that’s never happened…)”
It has happened… in the past. It is nolonger a concern. No woman in the US ever has to be “stuck” with a child. First, she has the option of getting an abortion. second, she can leave the child at any ER or fire station, no questions asked (the slogan around here is “No shame, no blame, no name.”). Third she gave give up the child to an adoption agency. Fourth, she can choose to keep the child and raise it herself. Fifth, she can sue the father for child support. Obviously, the girls has options. The boy’s only options are to hope the girl leaves him out of the picture, to pay child support, or go directly to jail.
TDOM
@ResoluteMan:
No. I don’t presume to cover every possible situation and scenario when I author a comment.
He does have the RIGHT (actual, natural right) to repudiate fatherhood. It’s a simple fact of reality that he can just walk away from the woman and the child immediately after conception. The situation we face today is that he is not allowed to, due to the artificial construct of child support.
Also, I did not have Beth’s situation in mind AT ALL when I was writing my comment. I was responding to the hypothetical situation RNB provided. But please note, based on what I was saying and advocating, Beth’s son would not be in the situation he is now.
Yep, which is exactly why so many make high risk decisions. There’s no fear of being totally screwed, should a bad outcome befall her. She knows there will be endless financial and social support.
Absolute bullshit. A “safe beta male” is someone like my father who doesn’t go on foolish adventures and works his ass off for his family. You know, the kind of man who makes civilization possible. I don’t know where you get the idea that I’m talking about being a slave to a woman. Ridiculous.
You’re mixing things I said with other things which I never said and was never talking about. My comment was not intended to be about possible actions bad women might take. But if you look at what I did say, what is being done to Beth’s son would be impossible.
LOL, come on man. It’s quite easy, and eminently benign, to consider who women are going for. From the perspective of a woman, guys who wouldn’t take care of their children are “unworthy.”
In fact, the whole point of a woman’s sexual selection algorithm is to find the men most likely to successfully do just that. It’s not my qualifications we’re talking about, it’s what ought to be hers. Women do the selecting, and therefore she must bear the burden of her decision. It all has to do with moral hazard. That’s the only reason I bring up the quality/risk of the men women chose to run with. I don’t give a fuck about judging anyone.
Totally agree. Maintain the default, natural state where women can’t receive support from men without maintaining a self-sustained relationship with them. The first step in what you’re calling for: get rid of child support.
Hell yeah, it sure would.
The only way you can get reproductive “rights” (government-approved, fake rights) equal is to use artificial constructs, and these constructs would have to be in favor of women. If a woman makes a bad mate choice, child support is attempt at shifting some of the cost and burden from the woman to the man, and look at the problems this has caused for all of us.
Perhaps we could ‘equal’ things out by saying everybody can just abandon motherhood/fatherhood, but that sounds like an absolute fucking disaster to me. The only long-term, just solution is to maintain an undistorted sexual market and force women to make the responsible choices you speak of. The greater burden has to be on women because they are the ones who do the selecting. Again, it creates a moral hazard to take any actions toward ‘equalizing’ reproduction.
That’s an interesting idea, which would probably lead to shotgun weddings once more, as there are few fathers out there who would stand for the impregnator abandoning their daughters.
I think a better solution (here we go with anarchy again) is to abolish the welfare state and family courts. Unfortunately, too much money is to be made by governmental employees in both systems, which is why these people need to be shunned. For lovers of the state, however, ResoluteMan’s idea will probably float.
@ Eincrou
Remind me please, should I ever choose to get in a heated debate with you, to do my fucking homework.
@ Eincrou
“He does have the RIGHT (actual, natural right) to repudiate fatherhood. It’s a simple fact of reality that he can just walk away from the woman and the child immediately after conception. The situation we face today is that he is not allowed to, due to the artificial construct of child support.
Never stated that he didn’t have a natural right to walk away, I too believe he he has a natural walk away. I also believe he should have the legal RIGHT or option to walk away with no consequences.
You’re mixing things I said with other things which I never said and was never talking about. My comment was not intended to be about possible actions bad women might take. But if you look at what I did say, what is being done to Beth’s son would be impossible.
You seem to be confusing yourself sir, on one hand saying women choose bad men and then saying the system is bad. I never said anything about “bad” women, I was talking about “options”, “rights” and privilidges that allow women to behave in ways that are irresponsible. You seem to be talking about so called irresponsible men. That suggests to me that your real problem is not with a system that empowers women to plunder/destroy men, but only that women aren’t choosing the vaunted beta male.
LOL, come on man. It’s quite easy, and eminently benign, to consider who women are going for. From the perspective of a woman, guys who wouldn’t take care of their children are “unworthy.”
Utter rubbish, there was/is a perfectly good system for a woman to get a mate who will invest himself in her and her children – it’s called marriage, trouble is women aren’t opting for marriage because they don’t have to. That has nothing whatsoever to do with “unworthy” men. So need for anyone to play Sir Galahad on women’s behalf. LOL backatya.
The only way you can get reproductive “rights” (government-approved, fake rights) equal is to use artificial constructs, and these constructs would have to be in favor of women. If a woman makes a bad mate choice, child support is attempt at shifting some of the cost and burden from the woman to the man, and look at the problems this has caused for all of us.
Ok – I forget where I am – the terms rights and government are anethema in a forum like this. Cool, then let’s call it reproductive OPTIONS for men. And once again, I reject the idea of ANY man being bad mate choice. Some women make bad decisions – end of.
Furthermore, there are all kinds of artificial constructs that prop all kinds of people and things, constructs that are far more powerful and more deeply entrenched than any “government approved fake right”. I guess people cherry pick which “government construct” THEY approve depending on WHO it’s supposed to benefit.
Perhaps we could ‘equal’ things out by saying everybody can just abandon motherhood/fatherhood . . . ”
Well why not? wouldn’t such a solution be in keeping with the anti-rules government, anti-anything that regulates society, attitudes that prevail here? Sounds great to me.
The only long-term, just solution is to maintain an undistorted sexual market and force women to make the responsible choices you speak of. The greater burden has to be on women because they are the ones who do the selecting.
Women don’t do the selecting in the world I live in. BTW, that would be the real world, not some ivory tower. But I agree that the greater burden to be responsible in these matters should be on women – not because women do any choosing, but simply because women bare children.
Again, it creates a moral hazard to take any actions toward ‘equalizing’ reproduction.
Don’t like the word “equal” either huh? LOL! Well I don’t like the phrase “moral hazard” when applied to any proposal aimed at making mens lives less bitter.
Lastly
I don’t like men who mislabel other men, I guess the mens rights force is strong in me, which makes me nothing more than a visitor in this place.
ResoluteMan, you’ve responded with a piecemeal reply that has no central aim or point. It’s argument for the sake of argument. You don’t even claim to disagree with the main thrust of my original post, and that’s really all I’m interested in defending.
I’ve done the best I can to explain my position, but it hasn’t been enough. You don’t understand what I’m talking about, but rather than ask for clarification, you rush to evaluate, and then condemn, what is your own fabricated, faulty misunderstanding. You fight with a phantom in your head, not me or my position.
The response concludes by saying you don’t like me, but I know the game you want to play. In fact, I have an article published on this site that exposes this very trick you’re attempting to use. I’d be damned if I allowed you to brand me as the bad guy, one who mislabels other men, so that you could avoid properly dealing with the mechanics of my position.
I would sooner disengage from this contrived ‘debate’ than continue with it and give further opportunity for such lies to be spoken among the people I respect here. You didn’t have to go there in a last ditch effort to ‘win,’ but you did, and so it’s you who is mislabeling me.
Well, you are not violating the rules, so of course you are welcome to stay and post as you see fit (provided that continues).
But that statement of yours begs the question. If the MR force is so strong in you that it only makes you a visitor here…then why are you here?
“transferring “ownership” of children in marriage BACK TO FATHERS” is a step back in time and it will never happen.
Only slaves are owned, parents have responsibilities and equality will prevail.
Women have many choices to opt out, men should have the same.
The only way to provide true equality for men and women is to give each the equal right to be or not be parents to their children and give each the equal responsibility for providing for their children.
Equal rights and equal responsibilities.
@Eincrou
Going to ignore your childish insult, and simply state MY disagreement with your ideas – with CLARITY. I object to your labelling of other men as unworthy of a woman’s reproductive capacity – get it? You cannot reconcile calling yourself an MRA with labeling other men using the same misandrist rhetoric you claim to abhor when it is levelled at YOU. Is that clear enough sir?
My challenge to you on that point is not some petty attempt to draw you into some idiotic, for the hell of it argument. It was a legitimate attempt to alert to your own misandry
sir.
Nothing to do with winning anything. There is nothing here to win or lose and NO ONE here capable of inflicting a loss or claiming a win over ME.
@Mr Paul Elam
But that statement of yours begs the question. If the MR force is so strong in you that it only makes you a visitor here…then why are you here?
Er the clue is in the word visitor, I “visit” feminist sites too and all kind of websites where extreme or fringe or just plain cuckoo opinions are aired. What?
Most of the time I can hold my tongue, and just lurk, laugh, agree or disagree in silence. Occasionally I feel compelled to wade in – like to today. I have my own platform to refute ideas that I find particularly offensive or crazed, a big enough audience that my refutation will count, and a sharp enough wit to make those expressing offensive and crazed ideas look pretty feeble. So your threat is of no consequence to me.
Different opinions and ideas are good.
A safe beta male is somebody like my father who worked his ass off in shitty environments and died young so that my mother could retire very young in the country and sit on her ass. She’s living the good life now. My Dad was a slave, he did everything for others and he paid for it with his life.
@ B.R.
I could never agree more. This is where the root of the problem lies. The city, the county, the state, makes way too much money off the family courts. I think child support, alimony, & welfare all need to be abolished!
I know a gal (she is not a lady so we won’t call her one) who gets alimony for the rest of her life. Why???? She is educated, intelligent, very physically fit, very healthy. Why can’t she get off her ass and get a job? She has the best of the best. She loves to entertain the gentlemen on her ex-husband’s dime. While he is struggling to make ends meet.
It’s just not fair!
I think alimony should be for only 1 year! In that year, it would give the woman enough time to get educated, start a career, learn a trade, and get on her feet. None of this “for life” bullshit!
It’s a great idea to eliminate state power of the private lives of citizens. It’s unlikely to happen without overwhelming popular support, there is too much at stake for the government bureaucracy that relies on it. It also increases the welfare state and relinquishes adults from their personal responsibilities.
First women need to be held responsible the same way that men are held responsible. Then women will agree that it is unfair and the system can be abolished.
There should be no alimony at all and no requirement to support any other adult.
Alimony is an outdated concept, that’s so 1950. There should be no rewards for a lack of ambition and personal responsibility.
Excellent article Beth! Personally, as a social liberal, this has always been a pet peeve of mine. I can’t tell you the number of arguments I have gotten into about this one. I’m pro-choice which gets me props – right up until I say I’m pro-choice for all (women AND men). That’s one those loud feminists and chivilrists step right up and produce every excuse in the book for women. And they always say, “but he always has the right to keep it in his pants and/or use a condom.” .. ok, but what does that have to do with anything…so does she after all. They never like that response.
I think some of the other female egalitarians out there have the right idea: child support – unless it is for a child of divorce – is offensive not just for men (as it tramples their rights) but to women too (as it suggests that a woman is unable to be held accountable for her decisions). Unfortunately though the mainstream feminists in their zeal and hatred for men will never see it that way. And the chivalrists see it the same way.
In any case, keep up the good work.
The current system is wonderful.
I’m past the age where women can blackmail me into sleeping with them.
Let the bastard sons of the feminists who rejected us become the slaves their mothers should have been.
In twenty years, lets see how much fun the old grandmothers will be having when they have to support their children at 38 because courts have ordered CS payments so high that whatever that 38 year old can make is not even enough to pay.
You ignored it when your friends, brothers, and fathers went through this treatment. Let us see how much you can ignore when it’s your sons.
Well, as things stand right now in regards to available contraceptives, better sex education is what you could do if men had actual reproductive rights (they don’t). Teaching girls that they not only have all of the post-conception choices (abort, adopt, and abandon in some areas) but also the contraceptives that work well and should really be told to use them if they’re having sex like boys are usually told to use condoms. I’m pretty sure that regular birth control pills are free in most developed countries. Hopefully a male pill is available soon, but I’m not holding my breath.
I had better education about the risks and how the processes all work as an 11 year old than most kids get today because of the nonsense that is “abstinence only” sex education, and it was all explained over the course of about 3 hours worth of class in my 6th year as an elementary student in Canada. It was kind of awkward to learn it at that age but I understood all about diseases and pregnancies and how badly a pregnancy could effect your future at a young age. Of course, this was in the mid 90s and it was always stressed about how it was the boys fault for some reason if it happened. You know, misandry and all.
Oh boy, soap box moment here:
Sexuality education is horrendously under-resourced and frankly requires a major (inter)national campaign, where there are no options for religious minorities of any sort to get out of lessons.
My most gobsmacked moment of the last 12 months was finding out that my 50 year old colleague had absolutely no knowledge of the location of the hymen (assuming her 13 year old daughter still had one).
Here is an interesting fact. If you regress teen pregnancy rates against liberal state-sponsored sexuality education starting with age appropriate education at age 4…you get (surprise, surprise), a very nice inverse correlation showing that more education leads to less and later sex.
Oh, and on the male pill…with 40+ years of knowledge on what the side-effects of the female pill are, I would rather we kept the status quo, rather than expecting you guys to have the toxic risk of new medication. OTOH, if someone can work towards a non-hormonal temporary and reversible sterilisation technique for women, that would be marvelous.
I’d take the toxic risk of the medication anyday rather than not being able to tell if my female partner is being truthful. As studies have shown, when a woman wants to have a kid she will do anything to accomplish her goal – including lying to her partner or sleeping with a well employed stranger, just to close the deal.
Remember – its all about HER. And our laws support this behavior and reward her for doing it.
We need to bring back Tom Leykis on CBS radio
@ B.R. MERRICK
B.R. Merrick ~ You are an amazing person! Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. Your friends and family are very blessed to have you in their life. You are truly an angel! Thank you!
@Eincrou – You mean go back to the state of when a man could ‘go out for a pack of cigarretes’? Seriously, you all are horse’s asses. I say this because abortion shouldn’t be legal either, has anyone else not correlated the skyrocketing percentage of the population getting v.d.s with ‘consequence free’ sex?
@Lillith
Women can also kill children post-birth or kill their husbands and get a slap on the wrist.
Abortion is a women’s issue…talk to your sisters.
@ Lillith
Why shouldn’t abortion be legal? It should be 100% legal since women aren’t taking responsibility for their own bodies. The population is over crowed now. Think about it if abortions never happened, at least the ones who are electing abortions, know they can’t afford a baby. It’s better than these other women who are having 3-4-5-6- kids. They continue to have babies and live off the government and get paid from 3-4-5-6- different men.
What about women who are raped and get pregnant by the rapist? Should they be forced to keep it? What about birth defects? What quality of life are we giving a human knowing they have a birth defect and still bring them into this world? What kind of mother is that???
Abortions would not be needed if WOMEN are forced to take responsibility of their body…. Unwed women need to be given consequences if they get pregnant and can’t afford the child. This shouldn’t fall 100% on the men!
I am sooooo sick and tired of hearing, ” I am a Christian and It’s against my religion to get an abortion.” Isn’t against their religion to have premarital sex?????? Why aren’t more women helping these young girls get on birth control and/or not have sex at all! If abortion protesters want to stop abortion, then stop these dumb bitches from having sex without birth control!!!
Three cheers for a women who stepped up to the plate and elected to have an abortion for a child she did not want and could not afford! These women aren’t living off the system or sucking the blood and guts out of some poor guy.
If you’re wanting a direct answer: yes.
Since you read the entirety of my post, but didn’t produce an analysis on par with the level of discussion, I won’t go into further detail unless you come back and demonstrate that you actually understood my position. This is something I see that I’m going to have to do from now on.
I’ll say this, though. Actions have far greater effects than we are often able or willing to acknowledge. We can’t just create child support in an effort to prevent the (previously) rare occurrence of dads walking out and expect that this is the end of the story. Our public policies are too often just simply shallow declarations of good intentions to solve unlikely, asymmetric problems via government coercion, but we refuse to acknowledge the further distortions they cause.
It’s difficult to discuss the unexpected side effects of such policies because people like Lilith always come along screaming their pure intention to make the world better with the simplest and most obvious brute-force ‘solutions’ imaginable.
I bet you regret the feminist racket now! Funny how we only notice injustices when they hit us or someone close. That’s why all the feminists are still shouting for more women’s rights and public debate on gender is exclusively about women’s issues.
Most women have no clue how much more privileged they are because they were never on the receiving end of the kind of discrimination that the average man faces.
My sympathy goes to your son. Lets hope we can spread the word so fewer people will make the mistake of being human and doing what is as natural as breathing.
The Solution is easy. Stop dating, having sex or marrying women. Be polite in public, as in academic and economic spheres. Beyond that though, have nothing to do with women.
The truth is women(most) want it as bad are almost as badly as us. It is just a matter of saying “NO!”.
I am by no means advocating homosexuality, rather I am advocating self control.
We live in a system that enables any woman to oppresses, victimize, persecute, mutilate and murder any male she has relations with. In such a system the only form of consent boy’s, young men and older men have is to just say “NO!”.
To engage with women in such a system is nothing but rape; rape of our bodies, rape of our minds, rape of our souls and the perpetual raping of our future.
I for one refuse to become a victim of rape.
@Kris, that’s too extreme.
Learn game, get a vasectomy and never marry, have children or live with a woman. If you decide to live together, write a contract.
Beth, why is the support so high for one child? You say your son works part time so where did they come up with the conculation? 10.000 retro for the first month? Your son was rail roaded and must, should without a doubt appeal! Get a child support lawyer! Get in touch with the mens rights group. He is being rail roaded and the problem is that too many men just sit back, shut up and take it. FIGHT IT!
Sorry I meant 10.000 for the first year??
I agree with you men have no rights, I am a male who was a victim of a crime a decade ago. I have been severely depressed for many years. My life will never be the same. Something needs to be done. When a man is raped, coerced, or lied to and a child is born he should not be responsible. We are all victims of an out of control government where equal rights is bullxxxt.
@ Anna
I am trying to do everything I can. I am just finding out all of our resources and options we have. I can’t afford to hire an attorney, but most I speak to tell me it’s too late to do anything. In Florida the mother gets to have a free attorney. The father does not. I have rasied two children and I wish I had $10,000 the first year of there life. This is crazy! It is wrong and it makes me want to throw up!
“…most I speak to tell me it’s too late to do anything.”
“It is wrong and it makes me want to throw up!”
Never forget that sentiment. That is what we get up to every morning of everyday.
This is why they call it “trapped”.
You MIGHT be able to get the monthly support amount reduced. There are currently “employment related modifications” that you may be able to get processed. These are based upon the fact that many many people are unemployed or under employed due to the recession.
Your son should not have to pay based on an income he has never achieved.
If he is working part time, he is clearly under employed. Check in your state to see if they have emergency adjustments that can be made for under employed people. Your son should certainly qualify for that if they have such a program in your state.
Good Luck.
@ Beth, you might want to contact these people:
http://www.pafe.human-rights.org/
I too am going through a similar issue in Kansas City Mo with Judge Christin Sill-Rogers. I have started a campaign to have her removed this November . A tall task but it is the step in the right direction along with contacting law makers as well to laws changed!! Need more info see Remove Sill-Rogers on FaceBook
Aaron
Beth,
are you familiar with the work that Glenn Sacks has involved in. There have been some small legislative wins that may build momentum towards this specific issue. I know of three women personally that are having the same experience as yourself with their sons. When will there be a congressional hearing on the injustice that is being perpetrated against our boys/men. One womans son who is an honor roll student, volunteers weekly with children and the elderly, regularly attends religious events was recently victimized. He was to attend college in the Fall but now must look for employment in this economy to avoid run-ins with family court system. Its sad because he actually was practicing what we always tell our boys to do…wear a condom. The young lady admitted in private to tampering. If a single unwed woman is not utilizing any for m of protection and the man does, it suggest to me that his safety measures were taken to ensure no unintended pregnancy and her reckless behavior should not be rewarded with support. If there is any progress towards congressional hearings please inform me and I will try and contact other women that are experincing what you and your son are.
Will there ever be a push for a congressional hearing on this topic? If so I will definitely try and contact the three mothers that I know personally going through this very experience. Are you familiar with the work of Glenn Sacks?
Beth it’s not too late. FIGHT. He can not pay out what he does not earn. What’s next? Throw him in jail for not earning enough to pay what he never had in the first place? Contact fathers rights. I believe they have lawyers to help you. WTH is wrong with America? Have we gotten that ignorant that we will abuse a young man just to please a young woman? What is she going to do when he’s in jail because of non payment of what SHE knows damn well is not fair?
@Beth,
“never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
The system of bureaucrats is set up to take all your money and leave you broke and broken. The real battle is in politics and the media.
That’s the problem with women in general. The can’t think in the abstract. They have “instincts” to care about children and, of course, themselves. But, they cannot relate to men at all. One rarely hears a peep about male suffering from a woman unless it is a family member.
“He can not pay out what he does not earn. What’s next? Throw him in jail for not earning enough to pay what he never had in the first place? ”
Yes, that is exactly what happens. He will be thrown in jail, not for owing money, mind you (that would be debtor’s prison- which is specifically prohibited by the US Constitution), but for being in contempt of the court order. Alles klar? There his debt will continue to grow, and grow rapidly with the added penalties and interest. When he gets out of jail, the state will take the first portion of any money he makes for itself to pay off the penalties, and it is unlikely that any money he earns will ever go to his child. Even if he is able to pay, the mother can spend it any way she wants- drugs, thugs, booze, or shoes. Your sweet child’s life appears to have gotten flushed down the toilet, as does the life of your grandchild. You GO grrrrrrrlll!
Pity that only now, when it affects you personally, can you see the injustice.
Beth-
I’m late to the game, but I thought I’d help. The answer, actually, is simple.
Child support (and alimony) are unconstitutional. They are a direct violation of the 13th Amendment as they place the payer (your son) in a position of being an Indentured Servant to the payee (the mother). The judge has violated TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 242 and is most likely involved in a violation of TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 241. Considering that the force of state involves the threatened use of dangerous weapons, the judge faces 10 years per violation.
Contact your local FBI office (yes, to have them laugh at you, but so that you’ve followed protocol). Once the State has refused to protect your rights from being violated by the State, you are now within your rights to do whatever reasonable act is necessary to protect your rights from the government. What you do at that point is your own choice.
Dear “Beth”,
The internet is great for causes like yours as you can reach many members and share information with just a click of a button. The drawback is that it is for everyone to see, so integrity and truth are especially important. Using aliases will not make you invisible. I know who you are. Currently you are a lier and a bigot. I know plenty of facts and history about your son’s situation and your background.
Your son does contact his baby’s momma. He seems to have more interest in his child than you know about. Perhaps that is why he has not publicly showed any support for your internet crusade. This appears to be your fight, not his. You may want to consider backing off as this child may become part of Tyler’s life and therefor part of yours. Your attitude will either help or hurt the situation.
The baby’s mother is far from the looser you make her out to be. She is in school, has a job and has enlisted in the military and was deployed over the summer for basic training. Her child is in daycare almost everyday because of her busy life. For her young age, she is extremely talented in the field she wishes to pursue. Did I mention she is fun, sexy and gorgeous? At this time her only interest in your son is because he is the father of their child. She is currently dating a great guy and is focused on her future.
Here is a lesson for you to learn… Sometimes teenage boys don’t tell the truth when talking to their mothers about sex and paternity. Tyler’s claim that she lied to him about using birth control and that 3 men were potential fathers are just Tyler’s attempt to distance himself from any responsibility or blame. No one else believes those claims to be true. Tyler was the only man tested for paternity.
In your rants you criticize single mothers. Wish to abolish alimony, child support, and give men a choice in parental responsibility. Equal treatment and “rights’” – correct?
So will you please explain your background?
Beth, isn’t it you that has two children by two different men and both outside of marriage? I know your kids have never used their father’s surnames or have any involvement with their fathers, so how willing were these men to be fathers? But you still forced them to pay child support,- right?
You used the courts to track these men down for paternity (it appears these men were difficult to find) and you requested financial child support. One case indicates you requested and won BACK child support (you are the sole plaintiff) in other child support cases you are a co-plaintiff with the state of Florida, which is a good indication that you received money from “the system” and then the state of Florida went after the fathers on your behalf.
Isn’t it you that “lived off the system” because you could not afford your children w/o public assistance? Isn’t it you and Tyler that spend child support money on tattoos? (you got your tats while receiving child support, didn’t you?). Everything you falsely accuse this mother of is really a reflection of your own past behavior.
Based on your attitude and opinions, isn’t it you that should have chosen abortion instead of having children with no fathers as you could not support your kids on your own? What has the effect of not having fathers had on your children, especially Tyler? Maybe this is why he walked out of fatherhood – fatherhood is not valued in your household.
And equal treatment?…… Aren’t you a cop? Are your physical requirements for employment the same as the men? Are you supportive of making the physical requirments equal for men and women as part of your “equal rights” crusade?
You owe the men and women here the truth. Either PUT-UP or SHUT-UP !!!
I will not post your real name, but if you deny anything I will post public court records. I know I have come down hard on you. You really have done a good job raising your kids. I think you could have a positive impact on your grandson as well if you choose to do so.
PS- your grandson is adorable and funny (he’s walking and talking). I will send you pictures if you like.
What the heck is this crap? You come on here and accuse this woman of all kinds of stuff and besmerch her and say things in the name of her son that only he can say for himself. The fact is that her son had a decision made for him by someone else-the decision to become a parent. And don’t give me any of your crap about “he should have worn a condom or kept it in his pants” nonsense. He was lied to about the firtility status of this woman and he should not have to take responsiblity for it. I don’t care how many men were tested for paternity here that is not the point and you know it.
Trying to dig up dirt about someones past because they do not agree with you is in extreemely bad taste and your ostensibly gracious effort to respect the anonymity of Beth is nothing more then a vieled threat.
I see right through you and your guilt trips.
You say ” You come on here and accuse this woman of all kinds of stuff and besmerch her and say things in the name of her son that only he can say for himself.”, if that is indeed the case, then why isn’t he on here himself? Why is his mother fighting the battle that has been waged upon him, not her?
first of all, I do not have a grandson
Secondly, you don’t have correct information. I do not have anything to hide!
Thirdly, come on the Dr. Phil Show with us all and we can hash out our differences and the truths will come out.
Take care & Best of luck too you!
Am I the only one who completely disagrees with this? If he didnt want a kid he should have demanded to use a condom or not had sex at all. End of story.
“Am I the only one who completely disagrees with this? If she didnt want a kid she should have demanded to use a condom or not had sex at all. End of story.”
Imagine what would have happened if Roe V Wade had worked out this way.
Except it didn’t. Women have 16 versions of contraception and men have “keep it in your pants if you don’t want to be a father”.
Fuck you, bitch. This is a men’s issue.
YOUR opinion on it is completely invalid.
YOU’RE not going to be paying child support for 18 years against your will because ya’ll made sure you had a CHOICE IN THE MATTER before you abrogated men’s choices.
He agreed to whatever consequences (having a baby/having to help pay to raise said baby) when he had sex. MAYBE if guys don’t want to be fathers, they should LEARN HOW TO USE BIRTH CONTROL METHODS or STOP HAVING SEX! Single men sleeping with multiple partners has become acceptable, and then when something unexpected comes about because of it, they claim no responsibility. Women who sleep with multiple partners are perceived as “sluts” and “whores” and unfit to be respected as human beings. We all make mistakes, and if we can’t step up and take responsibility for those actions, then there is something wrong with us.
I am expecting my son in July, and I promise you that if he ever gets someone pregnant, and they are not committed to being together he WILL be standing up and taking responsibility for his actions. I think that as a mother you would want him to do the same, but apparently not. BY HIS ACTIONS, HE AGREED TO DEAL WITH WHATEVER HAPPENED BECAUSE OF THEM. STOP TRYING TO BAIL HIM OUT FROM TAKING RESPONSIBILITY.
Consent to sex is NOT consent to fatherhood. Women have widely available access to around 16 different methods of contraception,including abortion.
This isn’t the Dark Ages where every fuck might result in pregnancy. To force a man into fatherhood against his will is quite similar to raping a woman or forcing her to bear a deformed child or rape child she didn’t want.
It is inhumane and you are a fucking MONSTER for advocating it.
If this story was even remotely al true I would almost feel for this boy… As a mother of 4 girls I pray they never come into contact with a boy like your son. Who is quick to say he was tricked.. I HIGHLY doubt he was TRICKED into having sex by this girl. I HIGHLY doubt he isn’t responsible for his own actions. He needs to stop being a mommy’s boy and grow up and be a man. While this girl may have been a lil tramp to be sleeping around with 3 boys, HE NEEDS TO OWN UP TO the fact that he had unprotected sex and THESE THINGS HAPPEN! Grow the hell up lady… While I agree that men should be able to stop abortions from happening and should have more rights over unborn fetuses they have fathered, I disagree with your whoa is me attitude and your dismissal of his DUTY to take responsibility for his mistake.. YES it was a mistake, but if the girl has to live with it, so does he! Let your little boy become the man he needs to be. And for the record, men have the right to waive their parental rights. Who needs a loser in their lives… that IS what you have raised.. a loser who runs to his mommy and wants no say in the repercussions the judge has made him pay.
The girl doesn’t have to live with it….she chooses too…..and could have chose not to….so the boy should have that right also
Fuckin’ A.
What responsibility are you referring to, Marlene?
The boy consented to SEX, NOT FATHERHOOD.
Would you say that if I buy a woman a drink she needs to woman up and suck my dick?
I doubt it.
What a load of crap. My youngest daughter was pregnant at 15 and was mother at 16. She said the pill failed. 5 years after she gave birth and admitted that she stopped taking the pill because she wanted a baby.
At 15, she was a brainless, lazy, rude and useless individual. The reason she got pregnant was that she wanted someone to love and to be loved. She liked all the attention she received and when the baby was born, she was given public housing, the place was furnished for her, she received a pension and had her own money and nobody to tell her what to do.
She is now 26, has 3 kids to 2 different fathers, has attempted suicide at least once and is a burden on taxpayers.
It makes me sick the way she chose to live her life. She tricked the first guy into getting her pregnant. She told her sister that she deliberately stopped taking the pill. The guy didn’t agree to be a father. She lied to him.
To the previous female posters who said that the guy agreed to fatherhood when he agreed to sex. FUCKING BULLSHIT.
Just because I obtained a drivers license doesn’t mean I agreed to get killed on the road by a drunk driver.