Oppression

Women were not oppressed by not having the vote

It irritates the tar out of me to hear feminists say that women were “oppressed” by not having the right to vote in olden days. Excuse me. . . oppressed? I must take exception to the semantics here, for is not plain to me that what was happening ought to be called by such a heinous name.

I am aware that some people might think it was a bad thing that women couldn’t vote. And I am aware that other people might think it was a good thing.

Well as you might expect, I am a third way thinker upon this subject. I would submit that women’s historical lack of voting rights was neither a good thing nor a bad thing. Rather, it was a morally indifferent state of affairs, based on a cultural consensus that was shared by men and women alike in the past.

Our ancestors lived in a very, very different world than we do, and their cultural norms were very, very different from ours, yet undoubtedly befitting to their world — a world mysterious and unknown to us nowadays. Who are we to judge?

So was it really, inherently, such a horrible thing after all, that women could not vote? And WHY was it inherently horrible? Why should it even matter? Did the average woman in those days honestly feel that voting was “all that”? Seriously. . . who are we new-fangled ones to judge the men and women of past times for their very different way of life, with its very different demands and pressure that we can no longer entirely fathom?

And needless to say, we all know that most men could not vote during most of those same years in which women could not vote, and that there was only a trivial time lag between full manhood suffrage and full womanhood suffrage.

Something else that nobody to my knowledge has pointed out, is that electoral politics as we nowadays know it is a very recent historical innovation. It virtually did not exist before the French Revolution, and came into focus gradually beginning in the early 1800s. So it is utterly vacuous to say that women were deprived of the vote for “centuries”, in case anybody wanted to say such a thing. In fact, the time window in which women couldn’t vote was historically very brief, and for most of that same stretch most men were similarly deprived. Yes, the more you whittle this down, the more trivial it looks.

As above, was it really such an unspeakable crime that the female population couldn’t always go to the polls during that comparatively trifling span of years?

Or is that entire concept nothing but feminist historiography, meant to wring pathos out of history for present-day political purposes by the device of retrojection? That would certainly conform to standard feminist tricknology, wouldn’t it?

Once again, I believe that women’s historical lack of voting rights was neither a good thing nor a bad thing, but a morally indifferent thing which ought to concern us very little at the present day. And I even think I am being generous, for to be intellectually honest I believe a case might be constructed that it was a positive good in the context of those times.However, I am willing to settle for “morally indifferent”, and call it quits.

Look, it’s simple. Once upon a time, women didn’t have the voting franchise because societal norms found nothing amiss about such an arrangement. Then times changed, norms changed, and women were admitted to the franchise. That’s all. And women were never, at any point along that general story-line, “oppressed.” Only within the feminist narrative were they “oppressed” — but there are other narratives.

Furthermore, women were never at any time deprived of any rights. You see, women’s “right” to vote simply did not exist in the first place — or not during the period when the so-called deprivation occurred. I mean that “rights” are only a figment. Only a mentation. Only a notion. Only a construct. Rights do not exist in their own right. They are not some mystical pure essence which hangs in the air all by itself — they must be conjured into existence by a strictly human will-to-power, and fixed by law or custom. Through the entirety of human history, people have been inventing new “rights”, in train with new appetites, where none existed previously. And I expect they will continue to do so.

So in conclusion, I wish that second and third-wave feminists would shut the hell up with their dishonest, self-laudatory rhetoric about “the vote”. Women can vote now, so the feminists need to quit tooting on that rusty old horn. It is getting really, really old. It really is.

About Luigi Logan (aka Fidelbogen)

Fidelbogen is a writer, videographer and webmaster of The Counter Feminist. He is a semi-regular contributor to A Voice for Men generally writing on the subjects of feminism and men's rights.

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  • Luek

    The concept of voting or democracy in the new Republic by the original FOUNDING FATHERS was that it was to be used as a tool for local politics. Until recently the President was not elected by majority vote but by the electoral college and state Senators were elected by the various state legislatures not by popular vote as is the case today. In essence, the FOUNDING FATHERS recognized democracy for the negative thing that it is and used these safeguards in the voting process to protect the Republic from being looted by the voters who could vote themselves access to the public treasury.

    • Muk

      Is the president not elected by the Electoral College anymore?

      • Demonspawn

        Not in the way it used to be.

        Previously, you gave your votes to Bob because you felt Bob was a good representative of your ideas and you trusted how he was going to vote for president. Today you vote for Fred because Fred promised to vote for the X Party candidate.

    • keyster

      Yes and furthermore what they seem to skirt over is that women could vote at the local or state level in most areas of the country. Suffrage was mostly for voting rights at the national level.

      Also, women were never barred from running from any political office at any time in our history.

      • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

        Women were gradually admitted to the franchise, at different times and places and to different degrees. So the work was well underway by 1920, when the 19th amendment was passed. What that amendment mainly did was close the gaps and make it official on the Federal level.

        The feminists paint a very monolithic picture of all this, but when we turn up the microscope, we see more and more gaps and flaws in the picture.

        If, for the sake of argument, women were even “oppressed” at all, the absolute quantity of this has been grossly inflated by feminist historiography.

        In other words, they have artificially pumped up the drama factor as far as they are able.

        And when people artificially pump up the drama factor, it hints that they’ve not enough drama to carry their case in the first place.

  • Bombay

    A very nice article. You may want to reconsider “Rights do not exist in their own right”. That is contrary to the concept of inalienable/unalienable rights. Like the right to be free or for self-defence.

    • Atlas Reloaded

      Can’t disagree with that. Especially self-defense.

  • Codebuster

    Good points, Fidelbogen.

    Here’s one thing that we can conclude as a consequence of the feminist experiment. With access to unprecedented levels of disposable income and disposable free time, provided-for stay-at-homes (PFSH) became free to indulge in suing those that they had greivances with, or at least getting white-knight hubby to deal with them. It is in female nature to be spiteful and vindictive, given that they don’t have to bear the consequences. Once given the vote, our PFSHs were placed in the position of impacting more directly on the very laws that they took advantage of, to their favour. A conflict of interest? Ever since contemporary feminism and the sexual revolution, this conflict of interest has been ramped up, and self-indulgent lobby groups set the stage for the erosion of the US Constitution like it’s never been eroded before. Conclusion? Women’s voting rights, without accompanying responsibilities, have become a disaster for “democracy” [for want of a better word] and the economy.

    Clearly democracy has more in common with the male condition, while statist tyranny resonates more with the female.

    But the question of voting rights does present something of a quandry. After all, women as the primary nurturers of children do have responsibilities with regards to educating them, and so one can resonably argue that they should be allowed to vote within the system that provides their children’s education. Fine. Grant them voting rights. But stick religiously to the US Constitution. Don’t let them ever cross that line. Affirmative action crosses that line. As does lobbying for self-indulgent priorities like domestic violence shelters for women. Only when the principles of a principles-based constitution (such as that originally intended by the founding fathers) are adhered to, might women’s voting rights be taken seriously. Given the current situation, there is nothing immoral about rolling back women’s voting “rights”.

    • tm

      ‘women as the primary nurturers of children do have responsibilities with regards to educating them, and so one can resonably argue that they should be allowed to vote within the system that provides their children’s education.’

      For women children are an option. For men, selective service (and being drafted if there’s a need) is not. Can you vote if you don’t sign up for selective service or refuse the draft? You sure can vote if you don’t have children.

  • Atlas Reloaded

    Agreed Fidelbogen, a very nice article. So it is not anything derisive towards it when I say that I am tired of “female opression” as well and discussions surrounding it. In other words, I am so Pro-MM I no longer want to try and debunk female opssion anymore. I only want to focus on men being shit upon and not standing for it any longer.

    And yes, during the time you refer to, men only were allowed to vote, RICH men. Poor men that did menial labor for a living had no more politcal power than any woman at that time.

    Know what else? Buffalo Bill Cody and contemperaries of his time (mid-1800s) were vocally for women’s rights. Speaking out how women should be able to have the same jobs as men. They were male feminists. Back in the 1800s.

    I like how a few guys have been putting it in previous articles: They.Were.Never.Opressed.

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      “. . I am so Pro-MM I no longer want to try and debunk female opssion anymore. I only want to focus on men being shit upon and not standing for it any longer.”

      I shall politely differ.

      Focusing on the oppression of men is only half the campaign.

      The other half is to undermine feminism, directly and indirectly, on every level.

      The real goal is to HELP MEN, and harming feminism (in whatever way) helps men by attacking the root of the problem.

      A number of specializations, and specialists, are needed — and like a complex organism, the non-feminist revolution will grow such extensions.

      • Atlas Reloaded

        “The real goal is to HELP MEN, and harming feminism (in whatever way) helps men by attacking the root of the problem.”

        If these discussions help achieve that end, than I am for it, for there is no part of the above sentence that I did not like.

  • http://www.manwomanmyth.com Perseus

    I have been longing for someone to articulate this. Thank you, Fidelbogen.

    Femaleists are dense like a neutron star, so we must also provide a concise executive summary lest they got lost in all of the ‘words’.

    You were not privileged to vote, because you were not obligated to die. How fucking difficult are those 13 words to get through your head? A man defended his family with his life, not to mention his country. Females did not.

    You have since rarely died for anything, but you’ve sure done a hell of a lot of voting. Not to mention, pissing, moaning and complaining. Now there you might have a case of oppression against men.

    Where’s all the complaining that you didn’t get the ‘right’ to allocate the meat from the woolly mammoth that the MEN killed. Or better yet, the ‘right’ to risk your ass killing that saber toothed tiger, yourselves? Go fuck yourself, narcissisting.

  • Adi

    Today, I have a right to own a TV-set. And I feel very oppressed because my ancestors were denied that right for thousands of years!
    I demand compensation from the state for such injustice and brutal oppression.

    • tm

      :D

    • Just1X

      I feeeeel for you brother, this legacy of opression can never be forgotten…(wipes tears from eyes)

      be strong.

      p.s.
      I _really_ wish that your joke didn’t ring so familiar. That’s the real tragedy

  • Stu

    Like an analogy I made once before on here. If there is a bunch of guys living out in a forest, and a bunch of women living out in the forest, and the bunch of guys build themselves a house. Then the women come and say, it’s not fair, you guys get to sleep in a house, and we have to sleep on the ground and live outside. It looks unequal, but it’s not, because each have the fruit of their labor……each have access to and control of what they have produced.

    Who created the society that they didn’t vote in. Who had to protect it. Who had to do all the hard, hot, filthy, dangerous jobs to maintain it. Who had to enforce laws. Who had to clear the land, Who had to fight to protect what was built.

    And what was the government’s role in those days. It wasn’t like it is now with every level of government interfering in every level of your life.

    I’ve lost faith in democracy. The tyranny of the masses. It seems to me that it inevitably devolves into people just voting themselves a free piece of a pie that they didn’t contribute anything too. That makes it more and more attractive to be one of the parasites instead of one of the contributors and the process proceeds until the parasite kills the host.

    As for the US, its primary feature I think is that it is a constitutional republic. Constitutional. That should mean that the voters are not free to vote away the rights of others to benefit a certain group. I say the constitution is nothing but toilet paper now, and all those creating, and enforcing laws that do not comply are guilty of treason.

    You can vote yourself into slavery, but you can not vote yourself out. This is what men who support feminism are doing.

    • Stu

      Btw, since all those people responsible for this mess, the ones who swore to uphold the constitution, are actually guilty of treason, because they are making and enforcing laws the are in contradiction to the constitution, then it is perfectly legal and morally correct for a US citizen to say that those people should be arrested, tried for treason, and executed.

      • Codebuster

        That thought crossed my mind, too. These people need to prepare for a time when rivers of blood will flow. It seems far off now, but it was not too long ago when I used to think, “what, feminists? How can anyone take them seriously?”

    • Gruelien

      This might be contrasting and over doing a moot point:

      But!

      Those women back then might well be preparing the food that gave the men the energy to do what they needed to do so they can stay in the house too. Now a days most women want to have no responsibility and get all the goodies. Let the men make the food and the house and they go on a spa day. When they come home they will him how it needs to be decorated.

      Bleah! that left a bad taste in my mouth.

    • tm

      +1

      ‘As for the US, its primary feature I think is that it is a constitutional republic. Constitutional. That should mean that the voters are not free to vote away the rights of others to benefit a certain group. I say the constitution is nothing but toilet paper now, and all those creating, and enforcing laws that do not comply are guilty of treason.

      You can vote yourself into slavery, but you can not vote yourself out. This is what men who support feminism are doing.’

    • Jade Michael

      Fantastic post Stu! Accurately stated.

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      “I say the constitution is nothing but toilet paper now, and all those creating, and enforcing laws that do not comply are guilty of treason.”

      Well said. I will remember that.

  • Stu
  • zuismanm

    There was another important reason , why females had no right to vote.
    Voters elected government. Government had right to start a war. Only males were (and are ) obliged to conscript and – die on those wars. So it actually mean – only those who were obliged to endanger their lives in war, had right to vote to government that can launch a war.
    Actually it are males that are oppressed today , since they are forced to die and kill in wars , launched by govs, elected by female votes. While females , electing those governments sit in their safe homes and watch those wars on TV while eating popcorn

  • Rper1959

    Since women could vote, they have had politicians selling mens bodies and souls to acquire or keep their “female vote”. That is they have used their vote as a tool of oppression. Well girls what you sow, so shall you reap …

    and the harvest is almost ready.

  • Sean in the 313

    Most women only care about ‘women’s issues.’ When the recession hit badly a few years ago, the CBS nightly news did a story regarding women who couldn’t find men with money because of the recession. Millions of men out of work, and the only people who were given any thought were gold-diggers. What a joke.

  • TheBlackKnight

    Seeing the outright hell that feminism has brought, I would say that women should focus more on how to responsibly use their voting power rather than defend this dubious idea of historical oppression.

    This idea of oppression is more of a smokescreen than anything else. It’s simply another manifestation of them painting themselves as victims. All the time I hear of women justifying the evil they do now because of something that they think men did in the past. It’s like there is some infantile scoring system that they are keeping.

  • Demonspawn

    One of the most important things about women’s suffrage is to look at the end results:

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/x737rhv91438554j/

    Abstract: In this paper we test the hypothesis that extensions of the voting franchise to include lower income people lead to growth in government, especially growth in redistribution expenditures. The empirical analysis takes advantage of the natural experiment provided by Switzerland”s extension of the franchise to women in 1971. Women”s suffrage represents an institutional change with potentially significant implications for the positioning of the decisive voter. For various reasons, the decisive voter is more likely to favor increases in governmental social welfare spending following the enfranchisement of women. Evidence indicates that this extension of voting rights increased Swiss social welfare spending by 28% and increased the overall size of the Swiss government.

    http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/WashTimesWomensSuff112707.html

    Excerpt: Academics have long pondered why the government started growing precisely when it did. The federal government, aside from periods of wartime, consumed about 2 percent to 3 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) up until World War I. It was the first war that the government spending didn’t go all the way back down to its pre-war levels, and then, in the 1920s, non-military federal spending began steadily climbing. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s New Deal — often viewed as the genesis of big government — really just continued an earlier trend. What changed before Roosevelt came to power that explains the growth of government? The answer is women’s suffrage.

    • Ben

      They call themselves academics but they cannot figure out why governments started expanding over the past 50 years?! Women have made up most of the voters in the US since Franklin Roosevelt and have consistently voted for bigger gov’t. So many men complain about the size and invasiveness of the government but almost none of them understand this. This is due to the fact that news that makes women look unfavorable is not reported. It does not exist. Ann Coulter even went so far as to say that women should not vote.

  • Ben

    We have an entire month to hear about women’s oppression during Women’s History Month here on campus. I have even seen wall size posters that have the term “women’s oppression” on them. It is sickening.

    I told a girl that we have a male only draft in response to her comment that women were historically oppressed by not having the vote. I also told her that 4 of the 12 Marines who raised the US Flag over Mt. Suribachi did not have the right to vote at the same time in history that women over 30 could.

    She was not even familiar with the Battle of Iwo Jima. I served in the Marines and now am in college with college women who lecture me about womens oppression and when I point this fact out about the men on Mt. S, I find that they do not even know what I am talking about. Nor do they want to learn. To them, women were oppressed. End of story.

    One college girl said I was lying and that there was no way that I had to register for the draft because the draft was prohibited during the Viet Nam War. There were several male students standing around in silence. They would not even speak up. Finally, she asked one of them if he had to sign up for the draft. He said that he did but it was meaningless because the draft was prohited. Another guy chimed in and said that most of the guys he knows did not register.

    The girl turned back to me and said, “See, you just made yourself look really stupid.”

    I have told several guys on campus that women are exempt from signing up. Many of them are surprised or even angered to hear that. Many college men do not even know that women don’t sign up. This information is kept quiet intentionally.

    But even the college men who have a problem with a male only draft will not dare say that in the presence of a lady. Especially if that lady is challenging a male student about women’s oppression. Men will not stand up to women. In fact, a group of ten men will not stand up to a single woman even when that single woman is out of line.

    I even had a woman tell me that my comparison to womens suffrage to a male only draft was invalid because both of these were examples of womens oppression because of all the women who get raped in wars that men start. So, I serve in the Marines and then come to college to be told by college women that my service oppressed women and that I might have even raped women while serving.

    • Fizzy

      There’s one simple rule governing all of this: people are pathetic cowards. What a depressing story!

      • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

        “There’s one simple rule governing all of this: people are pathetic cowards.”

        Or else they are merely ignorant, and so they are pathetically brave ignorami.

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      “One college girl said I was lying and that there was no way that I had to register for the draft because the draft was prohibited during the Viet Nam War.”

      OMG!!!! Please, tell me you’re making that up!!!!! :(

      • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

        Those who will not remember history are condemned to have others rewrite it.

        • Introspectre

          And will probably repeat it.

          • Atlas Reloaded

            Should we of the MM take part in re-writing said history,I for one don’t intend to repeat myself.

            Take notes bitches.

      • Ben

        Fidelbogen, I am not making that up. True story. People do not even know this fact. I am going to dumb down my youtube videos drastically. We have to educate people on even the most basic things of which we would normally assume they already know. They don’t know anything.

        • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

          Ben, would you hook me up to your YT channel? Maybe I’ve seen you on YT or maybe I haven’t . . but let’s find out.

          • Ben

            My youtube channel is http://www.youtube.com/helperdogfromhell

            The only reason I started this channel was because I had zero luck at getting my friends to watch Paul’s videos or ManWomanMyth’s videos.

            After 10 months of diligent effort to get people to watch an MRA film, I was completely unsuccessful. The only way that I can get my friends to watch an MRA film is if I am the one on camera. When they hear that it is MY video they say “I gotta see this!” and they get out their laptops and watch my videos right there on the spot.

            I have found that it is ineffective to ask people to visit websites such as AVfM made by people other than the the person doing the asking. They are only concerned with the website of the person presentimg the invitation.

            Due to this phenomenon, I had to do videos my damn self, however poorly done, just to get students to watch an mra film. I tell them that I am new and to watch videos from my subscriptions section.

          • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

            @Ben:

            “I have found that it is ineffective to ask people to visit websites such as AVfM made by people other than the the person doing the asking. “

            MOST people cannot be reached directly. They will not respond to one-on-one verbal persuasion if they are comfortable in their present way of thinking. Their tricks and techniques for filtering out alien information are unlimited.

            Among the general population, there is a small percentage that is “reachable”. Finding such people is like prospecting for gold — one must know the terrain.

            Such people can be gathered and linked, and in this way a vanguard is formed. Every revolution needs a vanguard of some kind. That is how revolutions work.

            The “dumb-masses” can be gradually reached through the peer group effect. If influential people in their crowd have taken up some bold new message, the effect of this will trickle down and spread. This progressively saps the customary “immune system” within that particular group mind.

            It is not necessary to convince everybody of the message, but only to make everybody (convinced or otherwise) aware of it. This will create polarization — which is good, because polarization generates energy and motion, hence the possibility of leveraging change.

            So, I reckon the need is to map out the various peer groups, and plant the right people within them, or ideally, awaken such people who are already present within them.

    • tm

      We should be shocked but we’ve gotten already accustomed with this crap. You may try to make them see reality from a different point of view, make them think a bit, but people will embrace some tenets, symbols, or lies, and hold them as religion.

      Re selective service: actually there are those pamphlets at the post office that sound mildly patronizing (kind of like ‘man up’): ‘Men 18-26, you can deal with it': … Something like, you’re big kids, it’s not going to hurt. Insulting. But men keep putting up with it.

    • Bev

      If it comes up again here is a simple question to ask.
      If they were not to register why did large numbers of young men flee to Canada and Europe to excape registration and the draft if is was not compulsory?

      Or

      On June 20, 1967, heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali was sentenced to five years in prison for refusing to serve in the military. a Houston jury took only 20 minutes to convict Ali—still called Cassius Clay in court—of draft evasion. He was given a five-year prison sentence and a $10,000 fine. He would also be stripped of his passport and his heavyweight title, and was banned from fighting in the United States.

      http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/May-June-08/On-this-Day–Muhammad-Ali-Convicted-of-Draft-Evasion.html

      • Ben

        Bev, many people believe that the draft was ended in the 1970s in the US just after the Viet Nam War and, thus, I am too young to have been drafted. In this belief, they are correct. But few women on campus understand that male students are still required to register. They are not educated enough on the matter to understand that having an all volunteer military since the 70s does not mean that the selective service was ended in the 70s. This idiot girl thought that the selective service was abolished in the 70s at the end of the Vietnam War. This is an omnipresent misconception. I am thinking about doing a survey of female students and seeing what percentage of them believe that the selective service exists today. I think we will be shocked to find out that the majority of female students do not even know that men still have to sign up.

  • JGteMolder

    The article misses WHAT those morals were at the time, I think; namely those who are expected to die for their country on a battlefield, get the vote.

    Women had, and have, the privilege of not having to die on a battlefield, so they did not have the right to vote. So there wasn’t even a “women are stupid/less than men” reason for women not voting.

  • minavill

    This article’s claim that the average women likely did not want to vote decades ago is quite absurd. The reason why women’s suffrage exists today is partially because of the feminist movement. Meaning, women were protesting for the right to vote. It is evident that many women, although not all, wanted the right to vote. I am not a feminist, I am a man. But I just wanted to point that out because I know that many other women would respond to this article in this way.

    • Ben

      If they were serious about equality, why didn’t they protest for their right to be forced to kill and die for their country?

      You say that you are a man, then you say “many other women would respond to this article in this way.” So, which is it? Are you a man or a woman?

      Do you honestly believe that the level of approval from women that this article is likely to receive has any impact on the author, the truthfulness of the article, or whether it should be altered?

    • tm

      The right to vote was mostly a fixation of the privileged women. Those were the women who had the leisure to protest for the right to vote. Most women had other, more basic priorities. Only the delusional spoilt princesses think they represent ‘women’ in general.

    • http://www.facebook.com/kyle.posada Frank_Jeeves

      I agree with you minavill woman protested during that time period because they felt the arrangement wasn’t fair. The argument that we can’t judge because it was the culture of the time seems also to prove to much. I must say I agree with articles conclusions but the arguement is something that could be used to prove the feminist paradigm that racism and sexism go hand in hand. While I don’t care that feminism labels us sexiest cause we all know they are wrong I’ll show you how this argument proves too much.

      It was also true that for a good portion of the time black people were enslaved this doesn’t mean they were oppressed because at the time it was a societal norm. everybody in the south believe that black people’s inferiority made them not human so they could be enslaved. Hell black people sold other black people into slavery from africa as well because black people felt slavery was morally correct to. So of course we can’t make judgements with slavery because only a people whose social norms make them feel that they shouldn’t be slaves shouldn’t be slaves. My point being that cultural normative are not a good argument bases for saying that time period was neutral in terms of morality. The chocolate cake and apple pie analogue is a better one (although I think women should have chocolate cake because it seems although I maybe wrong chocolate affects their biological makeup better then it does with men) because it indicates that women were not oppressed because they did indeed have desert as well. The problem came when one wanted the other. But nonetheless there was a sense of equality through out history that has been taken out of context by feminism.

      In reply to Ben. Actually feminist were posing themselves to get drafted and go to war during the Vietnam Era. The piece of legislation was the equal right amendment which scared many conservative women such as Phylis Schafly who rallied the politicians against it because it would destroy female privilege. (she actually did use the words female privilege) From Wikipedia: “Schlafly became the most outspoken opponent of the Equal Rights Amendment during the 1970s as the organizer of the “Stop the ERA” . . . an acronym for “Stop Taking our Privileges”, because Schlafly argues the ERA would take away ‘privileges’, including “dependent wife” benefits under Social Security and exemption from Selective Service registration” And Schlafly herself is an anti feminist and has written some very good books against feminism however in my opinion she is also an enemy of men’s rights because she patted herself to white knights. The Irony of ERA was if women didn’t have so much political power at the time ERA would have passed. Third wavers blame men for the lack of passing Era I blame anti feminist women because men would have passed it and gotten women on the draft as a consequence. After the failings of ERA it seems feminism got more and more vindictive of men, so they started throwing in the towel with more Radical Feminist rhetoric and patted themselves by using a politic akido move if you will. Feminist started argue for more rights by positioning themselves as a victim of EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN. I don’t think it was a coincidence that Andrea Dworkins work started gaining some spot light after Era didn’t pass. Perhaps alot feminist were so pissed they started looking to patriarchal theory to explain their perceived wrongs. And so by posturing women as even more victims elicited white knight sexiest who were pro woman to protect women at the cost of men. So feminism took advantage of the white knight complex and still do this to this day. This is why former feminist men such as myself got off that trained and ended up here on a voice for men.

  • dejour

    I disagree somewhat. Not voting was a disadvantage for women. The thing is though, they had compensating advantages.

    The way I see it is that men and women have traditionally had different but equal advantages and disadvantages. Imagine a family where by tradition, after Sunday supper, all the men share a chocolate cake for dessert and all the women share an apple pie. If you happen to be a male who likes pie or a female who likes cake – it’s a bad deal. But you can’t really say that one sex has it worse than the other.

    The fairest solution is that everyone gets to share the cake and the pie equally. That’s the MRM position, I believe. The next fairest solution is that you maintain the existing tradition. That’s the tradcon solution. The least fair solution is that men and women share the cake equally and the women still get the pie to themselves, and maybe start making a bigger pie from now on. That’s the feminist solution. And it obviously feels unfair to men.

    I think Fidelbogen feels the unfairness of the feminist solution, and so he argues that “chocolate cake” isn’t so great. Really, I think he should be arguing that it’s unfair to split the “chocolate cake” if the “apple pie” isn’t split as well. Concede that women not voting was a short-lived disadvantage for women, but point out that women had compensatory advantages (eg. not forced into the army), and that the trade-off would have been seen as fair at the time.

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      Hello Dejour.

      My main purpose in writing was to undermine feminist polemic, agitprop, etc. That was the definition of the task which I had in view when I sat down at my keyboard. So I admit that I approached things a bit narrowly, and wasn’t so expansive with the various nuances that you, and others here, have touched upon.

    • Rper1959

      great analogy

  • Codebuster

    There’s nothing to point out. Here’s a better deal… Ignorant pigs don’t deserve an explanation.

  • http://www.cyclotronmajesty.net CyclotronMajesty

    Whats so great about voting anyway?

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      “Whats so great about voting anyway?”

      The whole question of suffrage v. non-suffrage was moot during those long centuries when modern electoral politics didn’t exist.

      The Vote, as a kind of holy grail of democracy, is a very recent idea. Starting in the early 1800s (after the French Revolution had gotten the ball rolling), The Vote was increasingly conceptualized as a prize plum which everybody ought to possess. But prior to that . . . not so much.

      Agitation for women’s suffrage emerged along roughly the same time-line that valuation of The Vote per se crystallized in the popular mind. That is, it grew in step with the emergence of modern electoral politics as a whole.

  • keyster

    Your point on Historical Perspective is spot on Fid. Unless you lived during that time you have no idea what it was REALLY like…and I’m not about to trust biased historians to tell me.

    Considering men voted “for” their wives and families or the decisions were made jointly, women not having thier very own “independent voice” from their husband’s was at the heart of the matter.

    In other words she was “dependent” on either her husband (or her father if she was not yet married), to vote on her behalf. Women’s suffrage ushered in the very first political fissure between men and women, because they “didn’t need a man” to vote on their behalf.

    (Honestly how many married couple are there that have polar opposite political views? Single women as a voting bloc however are a whole other matter.)

    So it wasn’t really the “courageous women who fought for our rights”. It was MALE politicians targeting a potential voting bloc by currying favors particular to that group. (Similar to how they do this now with Hispanics). “If I win you the right to vote, I expect you’ll obviously vote for me!” Likewise, “If I loosen up immigration policy to allow the ranks of Hispanic voters to swell, I expect you’ll obviously vote for me.”

    “Universal manhood suffrage, by establishing an aristocracy of sex, imposes upon the women of this nation a more absolute and cruel despotism than monarchy; in that, woman finds a political master in her father, husband, brother, son.” – Susan B Anthony

    What she means to say is that men might not necessarily vote in favor of anything particular to women, or that if women disagreed with an action such as a war (or domestic violence funding!), they should be able to say so independent of ANY MALE in her life.

    She assumes men were using wholesale political influence to subjugate women and probably thought, much like feminists do today, that this was the reason women were not nearly as accomplished. Only today it’s much more covert through a secret underground society of men called “patriarchy”.

  • Born Free

    The great majority of people throughout history could be considered oppressed. No one, beside the aristocracy or the church, had a right to say how they wanted government to be run. But of course women see only themselves as oppressed.

    There is not at the present time a draft in effect, but it is mandatory for all men to register for selective service by age 18, just in case there ever is a need to re-instate the draft. And as for anyone’s argument that all wars were started by men, they are forgetting all the female monarchs that sent men off to die in wars: Cleopatra, Boudicca, Joan of Arc (not a monarch but a general), Queen Elizabeth 1st, Queen Victoria, etc.

  • http://equalbutdifferent.blogspot.com Kim

    The following is a quote from Harper Lee’s ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’.

    ““There are lots of reasons. For one thing, Miss Maudie can’t serve on a jury because she’s a woman”

    “You mean women in Alabama can’t-?” I was indignant.

    “I do. I guess it’s to protect our frail ladies from sordid cases like Tom’s. Besides,” Atticus grinned, “I doubt if we’d ever get a complete case tried—the ladies’d be interrupting to ask questions.”

    Jem and I laughed. Miss Maudie on a jury would be impressive. I thought of old Mrs. Dubose in her wheelchair—”Stop that rapping, John Taylor, I want to ask this man something.” Perhaps our forefathers were wise.”

    In the times when women couldn’t vote or sit on juries, they enjoyed a different status than men…a protected status. They were deferred to and given special and preferrential treatment. In order for men and women to hold equal powers, they need to be treated equally and held equally responsible. Much of today’s problems are the result of women having been given equal powers without the corresponding accountability….even 8 year old Scout could see what a mess that would be.

    • tm

      Great quote and comments.

  • MRA.

    Men didn’t have the right to vote and they were send to war being teenagers no matter how short, skinny, white, black you were, if you are man you go, if you are a woman you don’t go and die just because you are a woman, in these days things were different and boys had responsibility of the family while they were still children just look at George Dawson, he was born in 1898 and began to work at 4 years old, when you look at picture from the 19s century and early 20th century you see men and boys doing awful jobs and they are still doing this around the world just look how no feminist complain about women no working in construction but when the building is done they want women working there in high positions.

    There are picture and films from the old days about how was the life, i dare any feminist to show me a video or picture about women being oppressed, omg it is impossible the only thing they have is what they say in women study, “women where oppressed” how? they got a pussy pass when the titanic sank.

    http://www.manwomanmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/suffrage_women_conscription.png

    “It [feminism] is mixed up with a muddled idea that women are free when they serve their employers but slaves when they help their husbands.”
    ― G.K. Chesterton

  • Introspectre

    Apparently, during WW1, the suffragettes were busy demanding voting rights for “society” women only, they weren’t really even concerned about regular women, much like the modern feminist industry methinks.

    During this time, men as young as seventeen were fudging their applications to enter service; the minimum age to enlist was eighteen, (They must have been given the white feather treatment.). Anyway, long story short, the suffragettes; who claimed to be dead set against the horrors of war, believed that these young men; who were dying for them in horrible conditions, due to inept officers, using Imperial age tactics to fight the first technological war, (ie: sacrificing these men in droves), didn’t deserve the vote. This comes from the origins of feminist, err, female elitist, supremacist thought. Little wonder they still think the way they do.

    • scatmaster

      THIS THIS AND THIS!!!!

    • Bev

      A short history of the suffragettes. English men received universal sufferage in 1920 and women in 1928. The vast majority of the ten million men who died in the trenches in the first world war did not have the vote. Lady Astor and the suffragettes only wanted the vote for the middle and upper classes and were particularly opposed to giving all men the vote. Women did go to prison and were forced fed BUT they were the mostly working class girls that the suffragettes railroaded into marching (hard for a servant girl tell their mistress you don’t want to march, you job may be in jeopody). What the teach about suffragettes in gender studies is a poster example of the lies, half truths and distortions taught in gender studies.

      • scatmaster

        Interesting Bev. Do you have a link for that?
        I am compiling a whole list of “lies, half truths and distortions” to one day send to Paul to post in his admin section.

        • Bev

          I don’t have a direct link. I have pieced this together from many sources. I am lucky in that my memory is good at retaining facts.

  • Solaris

    That article was right on. Men have faced no less oppression than women over the centuries, and in some ways (such as military conscription/enslavement) we were even more oppressed. A feminist would take the time to point out that it was men that ruled over us all, so men are collectively guilty, but anyone familiar with history should remind them that women were placed in positions of royal authority and they held no less power than their male counterparts.

    Whenever some feminist says that women were slaves, or even lower than slaves, I think any decent MRA should be obliged to remind her that never in history did a Master Class put a member of the Slave Class in a position of absolute authority over a nation. If women were slaves before the rise of the female voter, than how do they explain Bloody Mary, Cleopatra, Catherine the Great, etc. ? Would white people have ever placed a black person in the oval office before slavery had been abolished? No fucking way. So why did women become absolute monarchs with the power of life and death over their male slave holders? Because women were never slaves or anything like slaves.

    The “women were slaves” mantra is just another feminist lie. Its a poorly designed illusion that an astute middle school kid could see past. Now if only we could liberate the minds of college students. But the Women’s Studies Centers on nearly every university campus won’t let that happen easily. Thats why we need Male Studies.

  • tm

    One of the conditions to be a feminist is being ignorant of (or deliberately choosing to ignore) world history. Only a contemporary woman could say ‘we’ while talking about her ‘sisters’ in ancient Greece for instance.

  • http://manamongoaks.com/index.html Ray

    Of the over 58,000 men who died in the Vietnam War roughly 43% died for their country without ever having the right to vote. How’s that for historical oppression of voting rights for a gender? And it’s much more recent history than 1920, when the 19th amendment was passed.

    “at least 25, 000 men’s names on The Vietnam Memorial Wall in Washington, D.C. are 20 years of age or under.”
    http://www.thewall-usa.com/names.asp

    Four of the twelve Iwo Jima flag raisers died for their country without ever having the right to vote.

    According to one documentary on WWI that I saw, approximately 500,000, non land owner, British lads died for their country in that war without the right to vote.

    While suffragettes were protesting in front of Wilson’s White House for a woman’s right to vote, thousands of American men were being killed, or injured in WWI without the right to vote. And yes, surprise, surprise, those liberated women expressed no concern over the lack of voting rights for those oppressed men.

    Now a show of hands please, how many of you heard about any of that in one of your high school, or college courses? Anybody? Anybody? :-/

  • Ben

    OT: Right now, this minute, at Mississippi State University there two tables set up with canopies over them with pink feminist symbols on them and signs that say “Say Yes to a Feminist Campus.” As I walked by on my way to class, a male student of about 300 pounds with a 6 inch beard and in a shirt that said “This Is What A Feminist Looks Like” greeted me very friendly and handed me a flier asking for my support of our campus feminist group. I read his information and pleasantly asked him about his organization known as Campus Feminists.

    As he told me about feminism, there were several women from this same organization talking to male students on the sidewalk.

    Several of my friends from engineering are wearing pink feminism signs right now as I type this. One girl said, “Come on, Ben. This is for a good cause.”

    I told the bearded guy that I was involved with the Men’s Rights Movement. He said in a friendly, nonconfrontational way, “Oh, okay. I would like to know more about that. Is this a group here at MSU?” He was not a bit condescending or unpleasant.

    I told him that we are a growing movement worldwide but to my knowledge I was the only MRA on campus. He asked if I had information. I told him about my youtube channel but warned him that I am new and my channel is not that informative and to check out some of the MRAs that I subscribe to.

    I had to meet with my study group and they were wearimg their feminist logos. I told them that I felt isolated because my views are different from everyone else’s on campus. I said that feminism makes me uncomfortable. They listened to me in silence and admitted that they do not agree with anti feminist schools of thought and found my position to be puzzling and jaw dropping. But that they still accept me as a friend even though my views are different. I told them that I was uncomfortable with the feminist symbol and that I came here to become an engineer, not to have political agendas crammed down my throat. But I was not directing that remark at my friends but at the feminist table. So, it was a friendly conversation. They told me that I have to learn to ignore it and that they were sorry that I was having trouble adjusting but that they do not agree with me.

    All of this just happened fifteen minutes ago.

    • Ben

      But everyone at the table laughed out loud when I said that thought men need more rights. They thought I was joking. You have to be a master at presenting yourself to be an MRA. What do you do when ten people at a feminist table, who have never heard of the MRM, bust out laughing when you mention mens rights because they assume you are joking. No one in their right mind would say that we need a mens rights movement, according to nearly everyone. The big guy did not seem dismissive after he found out I was serious. Who knows, he may join the movement.

      • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

        If you start framing the discussion along the lines of feminist v. non-feminist, you will put them in a weaker position.

        Just say “I do not support feminism”.

        A typical response will be the talking-point trick. They will rattle off a bunch of feminist talking points/issues, and imply that you do not “support” these things, or in the case of bad things, that you DO support them.

        This is where you zone in for the kill.

        Inform them, in your own words, that you never said squat about ANY of those points. All you said was that you do not support feminism.

        This is where you have them on the defensive, if you continue to play your cards right.

        If they continue to interrogate you, inform them that you have no moral or legal obligation to tell them WHY you do not support feminism, or to apologize for your lack of feminism in ANY way.

        Basically, if you tell them that you do not support feminism, all they can rightfully do is suck it up.

        And if they harm you further, in any way, then they can no longer pretend to occupy any kind of moral high ground.

        And if they try to represent your position to other people in a compromising light, they are potentially guilty of libel or slander.

        • Ben

          Great advice. That is pretty shrewd methodology. I have been practicing the catalogue of anti male shaming attacks that JtO sent me, too. So, I can always say, “I did not say a thing about that , I just said that I do not support feminism”. I guess it might also work to say, “I support women’s rights, equality, and the share the concern of which you refer, but feel that feminism is a poor way to achieve it because one person’s rights end where another person’s begin; feminism does not stop at this interface.”

          I might tell them that I would prefer to respond to their concern on my youtube channel so that we do not get into an argument and invite them to comment on my video. I pulled up my video “Status of Women: Misandry” and put it on auto play in case they visit my channel.

          I will use your technique, for sure. Thanks for that information.

          • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

            “I will use your technique, for sure. “

            I hope you will share anecdotes as they occur. ;~}

  • GensUnaSumus

    The right to vote is a red herring. Much more fundamental is the fact that women have enjoyed a safer and more comfortable life throughout history.

  • Auntie Pheminizm

    The homeland security dude who wrote a note to a feminist about her vibrator “was immediately removed from screening operations and appropriate disciplinary action has been initiated.” On the other hand, Sharon Osbourne joked on national TV about a sexually mutilated man and nothing happened.

    Men’s lives ain’t shite these days thanks to Dr. Frankensteinem and the monstrous feminuts she created.

  • Auntie Pheminizm

    When it’s convenient, feminists will claim that women have always served EQUALLY with men in war (see: WIMSA).

    When it’s inconvenient (i.e., no glory to be attained), they will say only men make war…ignoring the fact that mothers raise boys to be “patriots” and girls shame boys who don’t serve.

    Feminists will also say since there’s no draft now, having only men register is no big deal. When the next draft DOES come, feminists will excuse themselves by saying an emergency exists, women aren’t registered, so it’s only right that only men die.

    Either way, femininnies take pride in being irresponsible.

    Feminism: “Spoiled child-like women depending on men acting like indulgent fathers.”

    Patriarchy, not Oprah, provides the “oxygen” feminists need to thrive.

  • Auntie Pheminizm

    Ben:

    I suggest not sparring with feminists, male or female (unless you’re up to it). In my experience, they’ll just frustrate you. It’s like trying to tell skinheads that blacks needed more rights after the Civil War.

    Instead, concentrate on your videos. And maybe pen some op-ed pieces…not just for your school paper, but larger area news outlets. Your being a Southern boyo speaking for men’s rights could garner you some attention. Especially since you seem to be a lone wolf now, like Galileo at the Vatican.

    I think your growing online presence (augmented by the occasional real-world commentary in papers) will gain you notoriety. Be prepared, then, for interviews. Have soundbites at-the-ready…and pithy points to counter feminist dogma.

    Also, see about having some MRAs (Paul ,Warren Farrell, etc.) speak on your campus.

    I hope you can attract other pro-male supporters. Be on guard, though. The enemy will want to keep tabs on you. Or neutralize you with a “honey pot” trap (a la Assange) or “harassment” allegations.

    I salute your bravery. It can’t be easy doing what you do. Even the most traditionally liberal schools have become fascistic per “gender issues.”

    Finally, when you mentioned those “Think Pink!” signs I thought you were joking. It sounded like a spoof: feminists mocking men for always pondering poonani.

    • Ben

      I agree. Good comment. It is hard to refrain from debating campus feminists. They are watching me, too. Just the other day, I was standing by a tree waiting on my study group and a lesbian woman (who is a member of a male fraternity by the way, lesbian women can join fraternities at MSU but men cannot join sororities) came up to me and accused me of giving out anti feminist materials while using the tree as concealment. When she saw I had nothing in my hands she finally backed off.

      I am going to use my youtube channel but articles that criticize feminism will likely be seen as hate speech and will not be allowed in school publications.

      I will just have to do my own speeches on the drill field. No newspaper will take my story. Besides, I write on an 8th grade level. We have pro life people with gory pictures on the drill field doing speeches. Even those guys get less opposition than I get.

      People often ask how many are in my group. I tell them that I am the only one and I am likely the only one on campus with my views but I like to exercise freedom of speech, even if my views are contraversial.

      • http://www.facebook.com/kyle.posada Frank_Jeeves

        I’ve actually had similar experience with my poetry club at Saddleback college. When I mentioned that I didn’t like the second wave feminism the poetry club president in response to it was “In Poetry Club feminism is about equality.” in a very shameful tone. And I notice a lot of the feminist also seemed to be borderline sexiest against them. The great part of about Saddleback is the fact that their are plenty of women there too that openly admit that Feminism is just plain stupid. And quite a few men will openly disagree with feminism. UNfotunately I am the only dedicated MRA on campus.

        • Ben

          I understand how you feel. I am the only MRA on my campus in any capacity, dedicated or otherwise. In some ways, being a total outcast makes me a more effective MRA. I am more at liberty to be stern and candid.

          • http://www.facebook.com/kyle.posada Frank_Jeeves

            The Irony is the most sexiest women I’ve ever ran into on campus were not feminist and agreed that feminism was currently a bad thing. I’ll explain. Basically there was one woman I met who agreed that men deserve equal rights but when it came down to break up drama among our friends she sided with the woman who falsely accused her ex of being a pedophile stating that the woman who made that accusation “Felt that way” and that “All feelings are valid.” while her actions invalidated both me and the ex-boyfriends feelings on this subject.

            I’ve actually had more luck talking with a feminist about MRA even though it was a trigger for her. And she asked why in the hell the MRAs don’t ally with feminism because we are mostly talking about the same issue of equality. And I told her straight up that when a good portion of feminism doesn’t accept our issues why should we ally with them. When they actually stand in the way of some of our issues why the hell should we make friends with them. It’s funny because how I met her was at the cafeteria and she had an EQCA shirt (gayrights of CA) and I said nice shirt. And she said she was into various forms of activism and listed women’s issues. And I cheerfully said I’m a gay rights ally but I’m not a feminist ally. I’m an MRA. She stop dead cold probably because she never expected to see an mra in real life. but since then she has been very fair and hasn’t said anything sexist.

          • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

            @Frank_Jeeves:

            “She stop dead cold probably because she never expected to see an mra in real life. ..”

            Apparently she was familiar with the term MRA.

        • http://aleknovy.com/ Alek Novy

          The Irony is the most sexiest women I’ve ever ran into on campus were not feminist and agreed that feminism was currently a bad thing.

          It’s not an irony – in fact it makes perfect sense.

          To quote Rush Limbaugh’s famous quote


          Feminism was invented to give ugly women access to mainstream society

          If you study even the craziest laws and theories that feminism comes up through the filter of “giving unattractive women advantage” ==> It suddenly starts making sense.

          Few examples ->
          A) Courting and “rape culture”

          -> In general, hot women wait for men to approach or initiate them. A hot woman waits for men to “take her” without asking for permission. She wants a man who leads and pushes her up a wall and fucks her silly

          + Ugly Feminist Solution? Make men shit-scared of courting, approaching or flirting with women (sex harassment hysteria). And then make men shit-scared of initiating sex boldly.

          This gives ugly women more of a chance, since the men are now scared shitless in courting hot women – the ugly women can move in.

          B) Misrepresenting female sexuality

          -> In general, hot women love to be admired for their body and tend to pick men based on the man’s CHARACTER and masculinity (proven by studies). It’s also proven by those same studies that uglier women prefer to fuck handsome men and choose men based on looks, not so much status. Meaning – men would be best suited to focusing on developing character and masculinity if they want to get hot chicks.

          + Ugly Feminist Solution? Keep talking about how women’s sexuality is supposedly supressed, and women mind being objectified and how sexual objectification is evil. Keep spreading disinformation that supposedly women don’t like masculine men and prefer supplicating submissive men

          This gives ugly women more of a chance, since the men are now unattractive to hot women and focusing on the things that attract ugly women, not hot women.

      • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

        “Besides, I write on an 8th grade level. “

        Don’t be so hard on yourself.

        But if you want a speechwriter, let me know! :)

        • Ben

          I am going to write a few speeches as soon as I get a chance. I may send them to you beforehand so that you can look over them.

          I stand on the Drill Field (It is the dead center of campus by the flag pole and was a literal drill field for marching during WWII). I wish we could post pictures here so that I could show you, but I am sure that you can look up Mississippi State University and will see a good picture of our campus Drill Field.

          I stand by the statue of Civil War General Lee (our founder) and read directly from the “Facts” section of this website. It took a lot of courage to work up the nerve to belt out that first word at full concert volume across that Drill Field. I practiced late the night before when no one was around. Within a few minutes, the echos from the four surrounding buildings were interfering constructively and I was propagating pretty thunderously.

          I have always liked your articles. I would be very happy to read a speech that you write for me on the Drill Field. That would be much apprecitated :-)

          • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

            “I would be very happy to read a speech that you write for me on the Drill Field. That would be much apprecitated. “

            I would be honored.

            Message me at my YouTube channel, or e-mail me from my blog whenever…

  • Teerex

    Hooray! This is one of the few things that has been missing from the web pages of AVfM. I love the concept of historical revision as it usually explains curious defensive behavior in the the self-annointed gatekeepers of knowledge, and helps fill in the gaping holes of logical thinking in the official narrative. I think deconstructing the “official” stories of the feminist movement are one of the most powerful weapons we can wield. Like cream in milk, truth rises to the top. Great work and thank you Fidelbogen!

  • Rad

    “Rights do not exist in their own right. They are not some mystical pure essence which hangs in the air all by itself — they must be conjured into existence by a strictly human will-to-power, and fixed by law or custom. ”

    This is a contradiction in terms. If we define “rights” in this way, they cannot be “rights”.

    A “right” implies a moral concept of what an individual should be free to do. It specifies actions which no one can preclude you from taking, including the government.

    What you are referring to are not rights, but an abuse of the word; using it in place of what’s actually governmental privileges and cultural decrees.

    With your definition of rights, the “Men’s **Rights** Movement” would no longer have the principle of justice on its side, and would instead be relegated to being simply one of many special interest groups, each jockeying for position to mold “rights” to their liking.

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      “Rights” do not exist in their own right. And the idea that a person should do “right”, is merely that. An idea.

      But the idea has instrumental value.

      “Rights” exist within a social contract of one form or another, and do not exist otherwise.

      The “men’s rights movement” is a name that got invented somewhere along the line, and it is convenient to use that expression, although I personally avoid it.

      Just as I avoid the term “MRA”.

      Although it is hard not to use it at times.

      I prefer the term non-feminist revolution.

      I also like to speak of the pro-male men’s movement, to distinguish it from the “pro-feminist men’s movement.”

      When speaking of MRAs, I try to say “the MRA cohort”.

      • Rad

        Sure, an idea doesn’t exist in the same way we understand a concrete. The idea or abstraction is a means understand/form the relationships between concrete things. But the nature of those things determines the validity of the idea.

        Our nature as human beings is instructive about how we should live. We can’t survive by just any means.

        Required reading, I think:

        http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2011-fall/ayn-rand-theory-rights.asp

  • AmyB

    I’m a girl and I believe in patriarchy. If the patriarchy decides I should vote, great, if not, also great. I have my personal views on the right to vote too. Thats just what I think.

    • http://counterfem.blogspot.com Fidelbogen

      Thank you for your input, Amy. I must say, your views seem a bit more to the “right” than mine. . . but. . who am I to question a woman’s preferences, eh? ;)

      Feminists, did you hear that?

      • AmyB

        Yeah I have my own very strong views on the role and place of women and men. I am definitely anti-feminist. I’d gladly talk about my views to anyone that wants to. Thanks for reading my comment.

  • DarkByke

    The typical conversation goes like this:
    “well blah blah blah women weren’t allowed to vote blah blah blah, so that means ______” (where they try to get something out of it that benefits them)

  • kiwihelen

    Here is an interesting thought…what if it was only people who demonstrated that they were taking their responsibility as citizens seriously were allowed to vote.

    First question
    What do we mean by responsibilities?

    Second one
    Who is going to be the person who decided if the potential voter is being responsible?

  • Bazinga

    So my friend decided to give a rebuttal to this and I just thought I should leave this open to discussion because I really can’t get through to him. Mind replying to this so I can show him?

    “So true but over their arguments could lay with the restriction from the freedom to voice ones opinions and restricting voting is considered oppression. If you don’t know what they we’re thinking (what the people of that historical time period were thinking) then why would you speak about them and the choices they made given that a general fact of humans is we are greedy and selfish. Was this crime indifference or an attempt to push women down? If you yourself said you did not know then stfu…..umm yes (women) felt it was serious (that they couldn’t vote) if not they wouldn’t have created that women power movement thing, fairly obvious point. (This part is in reference to all men not being allowed to vote at some point in history) So because some men couldn’t vote that means women can’t? That logic in itself is flawed or was it predetermined with an intent to cause inequality to the female kind….if it isn’t that big a deal why didn’t they just let women vote in the beginning. Just because society says it’s right doesn’t mean it is. If society said something was right then we would never progress as a society.”

    The ball is in your court, mentlegen.

    • fidelbogen

      Reading this comment three years later, my response is that it is opaque gibberish. I am not quite sure what your friend is saying here.

    • RubberPunch

      Universal suffrage and thereby women’s suffrage was a consequence of changing political and legal systems, from a household based system to an individualistic system.

      In fact, from a household position, universal suffrage seem unfair, because large households have more votes than small ones. Universal suffrage under a household system benefit the already rich and powerful.