University of Montana

Men’s issues on campus: the time has arrived

Watching the President of Kappa Sigma initially supporting NCFM’s message, then flipping hours after … it became clear the Montana University System is teaching students what to think; no longer instructing these emerging professionals how to do so,” ~ NCFM Montana State University Chapter President, Nevada Thompson

Kappa Sigma President Aaron Adamski was for an NCFM campus group at the University of Montana before he was against it.

In a sudden and complete reversal of opinion about the formation of an NCFM group, Adamski first said that he had been in touch with Nevada Thompson about NCFM because it sounded like a chance to redefine fraternities in the community.

Said Adamski, “My fraternity wants to fight this image of frats, that we’re all womanizing date rapists.”

Ah, but that appears to just be the knee-jerk, honest kind of proclamation that could only come from a young man who had not been told how to toe the line, and for whom. But oh what a difference a couple of hours can make. His original statement was published by The Montana Kaimin on March 28.

On the very same day, with who knows what transpiring in the meantime, Adamski fired off a letter to the editor of The Kaimin, obviously written with someone’s stiletto lodged in his backside:

Like many Kaimin readers I was shocked and disheartened by the National Coalition for Men’s attempts to set up a chapter at the University of Montana and their attempts to reach out to the fraternities on campus. The brothers of Kappa Sigma feel that the NCFM has no place on this campus and their misguided views will only hinder the progress that has been made in dealing with the issue of rape and abuse at UM. We were founded in 2007 by a diverse group committed to work hard every single day to combat greek [sic] stereotypes. Kappa Sigma was founded specifically with service as the primary purpose, specifically the purpose of protecting women from all forms of violence and abuse. We are proud to participate in causes such as Take Back the Night and Walk A Mile in her shoes. We strongly urge our fellow fraternities to reject the NCFM and their backwards views about women. There is still a lot of work to be done to eliminate rape and abuse in our community and we will continue to be a partner in that effort.

The poor boy was clearly shaken, and nervous. But no bother, he redeemed himself by mentioning all the appropriate campus feminist’s causes célèbre, and reassured everyone that his fraternity’s raison d’être was to protect women. I can only assume young Aaron is back in good graces with whomever he is afraid of, and is back to being well-behaved.

On April 10, he was continuing to sing for The Kaimin, even if someone else was clearly holding the sheet music up for him (or pulling the cord in the back of his neck). He reported on the sudden and coincidental vote of the Interfraternity Council (IFC) to reject any affiliation with NCFM.

“The general consensus of the IFC and the general consensus of fraternities in general was against this group, because we don’t believe that it would help us in anyway,” Adamski said, with newfound missionary zeal. “We don’t want to build walls when we could build bridges.”

Of course, one has to wonder if the walls Adamski is so worried about are those between his fraternity and the community at large, or the potential walls between himself and whoever was telling him his opinion.

Well, we can pretend to wonder if we want to.

At first blush these are disappointing developments. They are reminiscent of Ryerson University in Toronto, Ontario, where two young women and one young man, disturbed by the “hate and intolerance” of violent protests against a lecture on the Boy Crisis by Dr. Warren Farrell at the University of Toronto, decided to push for the formation of a men’s issues group at their school.

They were summarily blocked in a kangaroo proceeding by the Ryerson Student’s Union, who went as far as to proclaim that any attempt to address the needs of male students on campus would be regarded on its face value as misogyny.

And this is the way this will go, for a while.

As AVFM and NCFM are now working together for the formation of men’s issues groups on university campuses, we see this as little more than instructions for how we are to proceed. They are not a roadblock as much as a detour on the road that will eventually enable us to circumvent the obstacles.

And it should come as no surprise. The feminist narrative is the most powerful force on college campuses today. We have seen it at the University of Toronto, where violent protests begin in part with groups sent by that school’s women’s studies department.

We saw it at Ryerson, where even the idea of men having issues is summarily dismissed as hate. We saw it at Simon Fraser University, where the idea of a men’s group was met with equally virulent hostility.

And now we see it at the University of Montana, where a young man naïve enough to imagine that a men’s group that actually addressed some of the challenges faced by young men was a good idea, found himself in hot water so quickly that his life has been one big, fat mea culpa ever since.

In the end, though, it won’t make any difference. If anyone thinks that the idea of men’s issues groups, or the desire for them to be established is going to just go away, they need to crack a few history books. As history shows time and time again, where there is a need, people act, and they do not quit easily.

The need for men’s issues groups outside the purview of hateful gender ideologues has never been greater.

The good news is that cooperation from fraternities and student’s unions is nice, but hardly necessary. These groups can and will form with or without the approval of organizations already under feminist ideological control. NCFM Montana State University Chapter President, Nevada Thompson told The Kaimin that she is disappointed that NCFM didn’t have the support of the fraternities, but that the group is still working to starting a UM chapter next fall.

“We’ve got a couple of students who really seem interested so we’ll be coming down to meet with them,” she said. She also said that the group is reaching out to University of Montana professors for support.

On our end here, as we enter more substantive stages of this work, we are charged with developing the infrastructure for guiding and supporting these young people through the maze of bigotry and distortion of their mission that they will face at the average college campus. This is going to take some time, but we are meeting weekly and hope to have the foundation for that infrastructure built within a reasonable amount of time. Personally, I am hoping to have something in place by Fall, but cannot make any promises. It is a mountain of work that must be done correctly the first time.

But it will happen, regardless of how long it takes. There have already been a lot of contacts from interested parties, and we anticipate that will increase with time. Like I said, the need is there, and the resistance and fear of speaking up is beginning to wane. It is no longer if, but when.

Men’s issues groups are coming. And I am proud to say that you will be witnessing the documentation of that here, in as much detail as sensible strategy allows me to bring to these pages.

About Paul Elam

Paul Elam is the founder and publisher of A Voice for Men, the founder of A Voice for Men Radio, the AVfM YouTube Channel, and appears weekly on AVFM Intelligence Report, Going Mental with Dr. Tara Palmatier and monthly on MANstream Media with Warren Farrell and Tom Golden.

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  • Laddition

    “On April 10, he was continuing to sing for The Kaimin, even if someone else was clearly holding the sheet music up for him (or pulling the cord in the back of his neck).”

    aren’t those cords usually found in the middle of the spine?

    I can see why they might have had difficulty locating that with this boy.

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      Looks like they found it anyway.

      • Laddition

        found the string you mean, not the spine? :)

  • KeanoReeves

    Paul,

    I know another civil rights movement which used a strategy of “curse of history” to push through their agenda. It is quite simple. You have to say, “blah, blah are injustices. Mens group is inevitable. When it is established, YOUR name will be listed as a villain and a bigot. When men’s group history is written, as it will, a part of the history (a line perhaps) would be how you bigotedly stopped it.

    I don’t know whether it will work or not. I have seen it work in another situation though.

  • http://commonmanmedia.blogspot.com TCM

    Academia is one of the greatest – if not the greatest – strongholds of Feminist misandry. It will be an incredibly difficult stronghold to break into and gain a foothold in, but it will also be very rewarding when that day comes.

    I look forward to these developments, and will be watching them closely.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/activism-page/karma/ KARMA MRA MGTOW

      “and will be watching them closely.”

      Hell yea!

    • KeanoReeves

      TCM,

      I’m sorry – but I see a different endgame. I see feminist stranglehold on acedemia increasing, bt acedemia as represented by universities losing value. Women would form 80% of universities, but that would be of no use – because research and thought leadership would have moved to think tanks. I see acedemia losing credibility due to politiking.

      • http://commonmanmedia.blogspot.com TCM

        Just some of my own musings:

        From 1970 up until now, higher ed has really raked it in. As the saying goes, “Higher education has been very successful. Students, not so much.” But I believe, after spending a great deal of time observing the trends in academia, that their fun in the sun is about to come to an end, and it will be very lean years ahead for them.

        Arising in the world are a host of social, legal, economic, and technological tides that, as they converge, will undermine and cripple the power and influence of academia. One of them is simply degree inflation: the more people have a degree, the less the degree is valued. Employers know that being educated doesn’t mean someone is intelligent, and many will wisely hire experience over education. As prospective students catch on to this, some will simply enter the labor force instead of pursuing a degree.

        The student loan crisis is another, where the Dept. of Ed, for years, has been handing out loans willy nilly that are beyond their borrower’s capacity to repay. That bubble is going to burst soon, and when it does academia can expect enrollments to drop sharply.

        And then there are organizations like FIRE, whose primary purpose is to shine a light of negative publicity on academia and find lawyers to help students and some faculty sue the hell out of them. Organizations like FIRE are small, but growing rapidly. Free Speech groups like the Free Speech Alliance of Canada (which protested Feminism at U of T) are popping up all over the place. These groups may not support MRA goals per se, but will likely prove helpful allies in creating a safe space to get the message out.

        The next is the economy. The simple fact is that our government is broke, and one of the greatest sponges for wasteful funding is academia. These institutions receive hundreds of thousands of dollars for “violence prevention” and “diversity” programs that don’t require anywhere near the money they receive for them. Academia is also pricing itself out of the market. Due in part to wasteful and expensive programs and the insanely high salaries of administrators (as well as their rapid increase in number, called “administrative bloat”), many students are shaking their head and wondering if higher ed is worth the cost.

        Technology is also increasingly making higher education redundant. As they receive cuts in funding and hope to reach more students, many institutions are now using MOOCs (massive-open-online-courses), which reduces the value and influence of the faculty. As “distance learning” slowly replaces in-house instruction, student life on campus also dwindles, meaning that students are spending less time and money on campus affairs. Even the ridiculously exploitative campus bookstores, which have historically sold books for obscene prices and bought them back with peanuts, may feel the pinch soon, as some students and institutions consider e-books to replace expensive paperbacks.

        Other trends of note are the phasing out of tenure, which also reduces the power of faculty, and the emergence of think tanks, as Keano noted. It is also wise to consider the ever-present alternatives to education such as technical and trade schools.

        And then, of course, there is the fact that half the human race is dropping out of higher education like flies:
        http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/All-four-degrees-percentage.jpg

        You simply cannot ignore and shit on half the human race and hope to get away with it forever. This is not an opinion, but a mathematical fact.

        There is no way all of this can end well for academia. Whereas before in some areas academia held the world at their mercy – through its ability to control the economic and social status of certain individuals and groups – I believe a time will soon come when academia will be at the mercy of the world.

        As their power and influence wanes, our education institutions will have to turn from ideological to more practical matters simply to stay alive. Pseudo-intellectual disciplines like Women’s Studies will move from being an asset to a liability and find themselves de-funded. As society increasingly regards Feminism itself as passe at best and hateful at worst, in our universities – which are roughly 20 years behind the times since they reflect more the social and political interests of faculty and admins than their students (“the ivory tower syndrome”) – Feminism will slowly fall out of favor, albeit long after the outside world has caught on. It may even be that our own advocacy in higher ed will be hampered by these trends, most of which are well beyond our control.

        Those are my analyses and predictions.

        • Alphabeta Supe

          Excellent insight. My thoughts run parallel to these.

          I raised many of these issues at university when I served on my faculty board. As an older undergraduate I managed to get myself heard at high levels, but quickly developed a reputation as an “agitator” as the academics mistakenly thought I was advocating the end of the world as they knew it instead of merely sounding a warning bell. Once the label took hold, the faculty wagons circled and people stopped listening. It was sad the way it happened – imagine a bunch of esteemed professors plugging their ears with their fingers, chanting “la la la la la” in unison then thrusting their heads collectively in the sand. That’s how comical it looked to me. I sent a drawing depicting the scene to the student newspaper, which subsequently got published – with my name attached. I shouldn’t have done that.

          Since then, I’ve seen a great many of these changes you’ve described come about. As an employer, I value a job candidates extra-curricular activities and skills far more highly than their academic credentials. Degrees are a dime a dozen. High grades are also commonplace. Graduates are generally willing to do lower-value jobs for less money and are less likely to say or do things that put their jobs at risk because of their debt burdens, which is valuable to an employer.

          Further, training organisations are emerging that provide specific non-accredited, task-oriented training that help participants do specific market-based jobs that suit an ever more dynamic commercial market place. Jobs are becoming more short-term (2-3 year) propositions rather than career choices.

          This suggests that the idea of getting a degree that qualifies a person in broad theoretical terms, especially a professional degree, is becoming redundant. In the internet age almost all professional knowledge can be gleaned relatively easily by the competent auto-didact, or a least with the assistance of a competent online tutor, like the Khan Academy. The new challenge is in teaching practical application of this easy-to-obtain theoretical knowledge.

          I suspect we’ll see generalised university education replaced by practical courses in the areas in which the companies that fund those courses are specifically invested. Short-term training for short-term, task-oriented jobs, if you like. The worker would then move on to another job and receive training for the next job – a bit like human apps.

          I’m interested to see what post-credentialist companies will use as their basis for selecting one candidate over another. I hope it will be primarily character-based, but I suspect it will be based mainly on the speed with which they can learn and adapt to new tasks. That is, of course, if the company doesn’t collapse under the dead weight of graduate school gynocentric non-productivity.

          • Sting Chameleon

            That sounds fine and dandy for purely commercial areas, but not so much for basic sciences.

    • http://manamongoaks.com/index.html Ray

      “Academia is one of the greatest – if not the greatest – strongholds of Feminist misandry. “

      Yep.

      http://tinyurl.com/bwxoyjo

      • http://commonmanmedia.blogspot.com TCM

        I love that pic. Also, whenever I think of men’s groups starting up on campus, especially in regards to their lack of due process in rape accusations, I immediately think of this. IT FITS!

  • Sasha

    Viewing this from across the Atlantic, I’m genuinely saddened to see what’s become of young college men in the U.S.

    A man has worth because he’s a human being. Not because he provides ‘service’ to women, not because he ‘protects’ women. Participating in feminist initiatives such as ‘take back the night’ or ‘walk a mile in her shoes’ merely reinforces the image that masculinity is a problem, that being male is something to be ashamed of.

    When I was at college, we went into local schools and coached deprived young kids (boys AND girls) for college. Each week we went and read to kindergarten kids. We volunteered at youth centres.

    I certainly wouldn’t have put up for a second with someone telling me I needed to be ‘taught not to rape’. I was too busy getting an education and improving my community.

    • Near Earth Object

      “A man has worth because he’s a human being.”

      And that worth—value—is intrinsic to his being, by virtue of his existence.

  • Zeus Vapor

    There should be on campus mandatory deprogramming centers for girls who have taken “women’s studies” or some other similar male bashing course. This includes teachers. Eliminating feminist teacher bias is an essential step towards creating equal opportunity for all.

  • napocapo69

    “We are proud to participate in causes such as … Walk A Mile in her shoes.”
    That initiative is a pure attempt to ridicule males; whoever supports or participates to it has severe issues with own sexual personality.

    “We strongly urge our fellow fraternities to reject the NCFM and their backwards views about women.”
    Such as?

    “There is still a lot of work to be done to eliminate rape and abuse in our community and we will continue to be a partner in that effort.”
    Good, keep doing it without affecting men’s rights. In the meanwhile we’d like to deal with few issues, that we believe are severe and widespread, such as fatherhood, suicides and sex discrimintation against men almost in every aspect of public and private life.

    If they believe that dealing with men issues and allowing men to state their rights is a problem or a threat to “women”, then they are implicitly admitting that women have been entitled to priviledges and such priviledges have been achieved at the expenses of men….isn’t it?

    • Fredrik

      It strikes me as the zero-sum thinking of cultural Marxism.

    • MGTOW-man

      Spot-on!

      …And for those who think that recognizing mens issues and historical repression/oppression of males is something that “delegitimizes” the struggles of women?

      Well, since all we do as MHRA’s is tell the truth as God knows it, as the lying feminists know it, and most all men (cowards or not) know it, then if the truth delegitimizes what they claim, it must be because they have exaggerated, lied, manipulated, schemed, exploited, and FELT (with skewed feelings dominating themselves) their way into making those had-suckers out there believe they actually really had it much more badly than men had it.

      They do not even want us to speak. But if we are so wrong, then let it be shown to the world, thus reinforcing their position. Ahhh, but that is exactly what they are afraid of.

      I may be a “nut”, but the censorship of men and boys is coming. It is the only way the fems can keep their secret…for our message is letting the cat out of the bag and what we stand for is like water on the wicked witch.

  • Murray Pearson

    Great article, Paul. I would suggest getting in touch with the small number of academics that DO understand the inequality of gender feminism, and to encourage them to contribute. We of course do have a few like Dr. T; but another excellent candidate to approach is Anthony Synnott of Concordia University, author of “Re-Thinking Men: Heroes, Victims and Villains” (Ashgate, 2009). His email is anthony.synnott@concordia.ca.

    Also, the other night I met a feminist blogger named Clay, who’s completely defied my expectation of feminists. Her blog is at http://agirlnamedclay.com/ and it’s actually quite good reading. She is working on a book about sexual assault for a popular audience and she’s explicitly recognizing the plight of male victims and is not demonizing men. How refreshing! Perhaps I’ll interview her for this fine rag.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/DannyboyCdnMRA Dan Perrins

    Silly femi-fascists, don’t they know nature abhors a vacuum and men’s issues and rights are in an extreme vacuum right now.
    Are they that deluded in their beliefs that they figure they can go against nature?

  • MGTOW-man

    When I was in college, I remained independent; fraternities seemed like corrals containing the herd of spring-loaded, wind-up doll/puppets that I wanted no part of whatsoever despite being relentlessly pursued by frats to join one of their silly sophomoric clubs.

    I graduated with honors, on the Dean’s list most of the time while working 4 part time jobs, including the Army Reserves (post active duty). I succeeded without frats and have done so ever since.

    I saw through them then and I do now. We do not need fraternities to help us have our voice on college campuses around the world. Having their support would have been a boost, but like PE said, we will overcome it and even do better in the long run.

    I agree because most exposure to frat boys makes me wince. I do not like being associated with males who call themselves men (and really believe it !@#$%^&*) but while they act like boys who can’t manage to do their own thinking especially when it comes to women. They obsess over being liked by the other men and ALL the women that them calling themselves “men” is like a cow calling itself a diplomat or something.

    I will add that when I wrote the twisted (literally) feminist editor for using OUR college newspaper for her trashy, unprofessional behavior of bashing men (and lit in on her with unapologetic candor), in which she printed my writing (but only to try and discredit it, which she failed miserably according to many who commented), that many men DID come out of the woodwork to commend me on my “bravery, stubbornness, commitment, and commonsense”.

    Some of those men who confided in me (some secretly, others not) were from fraternities, but they were the ones to want to speak with me sort of behind the curtain, or in an unoccupied room, catching me uninvolved with any one else at the time. Most of the men who came to sincerely thank me for standing up for men and boys were of no fraternal affiliation as could be obviously seen and known. The real men did not have to hide in order to be truthful with me.

    So, the point is that with or without frat-boy (lapdog) support, mens groups will prevail and will help us get our messages into the hands and minds of men and boys not only on campuses but in the homes where much of the ado from college winds up.

    I fully support this endeavor and such is specifically why I donated what I call a sizable sum of money to AVfM this spring. I strongly encourage others to join me in such financial help for this superb site and its co-initiative with NCFM to get these mens centers on campuses across the planet–as fast as possible!!!!

    I have been saying for years that to make the most gains against the tyranny of radical, misguided and hate-filled, frivolously-envious, stilted-up, preferential- treatment-cowardly feminism is to quickly get into the minds of boys to change their perspectives about what makes a boy into a man—interrupt their drive to be the same old losers thus seen by males in general.

    In short here, love the boys anyway. Help them see the feminists, the hate, the lies, the truth. Approve of them shunning the wrong kind of women, teach them to look before they leap, to reject name-calling/bullying, to seek out other ways to be happy…because women have changed and things will not get any better until men send a clear signal that while they do indeed love women, the time has come for an end to the feminist monopoly on just about everything.

    When we change our boys, we change men. Then we stand a chance at winning.

    These college mens centers are a huge important step in the series of obstacles we will have to get boys to rethink what makes a male into a real man. …And for starters, a real man can’t be a puppet, a spring-loaded wind-up doll, a herded cowardly copy-cat. etc.

    Being a man has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with women and kids—period. If someone tells you otherwise, like PE said, (paraphrased) “they have let others make their opinions FOR them.” Such a person, by definition, by default, CAN NOT be a man.

    These centers will prove vital in changing the men and boys’ minds about so much in our world.

    Please, everyone, let us continue this endeavor with fervor!

  • malcolm

    There are a lot of reasons to be optimistic these days.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/15/mens-rights-millennial-males-canada_n_3061876.html

    In regards to universities, all MHRAs are asking for is a chance to organize just like everybody else. Now that the media has picked up on the issue and these efforts are getting a lot of support from the general public (the taxpayers who fund these places), the cooperation of feminists on campus will soon become unnecessary. It would be great to be able to bring these issues to the forefront without so much acrimony, but either way, goals are being achieved.

  • http://commonmanmedia.blogspot.com TCM

    I left a comment on Adamski’s letter to the editor, as follows:

    Mr. Adamski, this publication records your earlier statement here:

    “’My fraternity wants to fight this image of frats, that we’re all womanizing date rapists,’ Adamski said. He said he didn’t know much about NCFM, but that Thompson had told him it was about promoting awareness of gender issues.”

    Source: http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/article_3b1fe7c8-975b-11e2-8f35-0019bb30f31a.html

    While little else is said of your position, what you stated earlier is, in my understanding, in concordance with NCFM’s position. You then claim that NCFM’s efforts were misguided. What is missing from this letter here is evidence for your claims that NCFM’s views are misguided. What elements specifically are misguided that you can articulate? We are unable to tell from your statement; indeed, the only thing NCFM received is an ad hominem attack.

    There is now an abundance of evidence for our claims that, ever-present in academic settings, there is an atmosphere of misandric hysteria that paints all male students as potential rapists and regards the experiences of the wrongly accused with indifference at best and hostility at worst. I have documented it at length here:

    http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/the-war-on-male-students/

    The negative stereotyping of men and boys in academia, and the resulting systemic destruction of their human rights (particularly due process), is routinely rationalized by dubious statistics that are cherry-picked not for their academic value but for their political utility. In reality, we have a wide range of statistics on percentages sexual assault and false rape claims, and years of looking at this problem has led me to this conclusion, which should (but unfortunately does not) form our values and perspective on the discussion:

    *No one knows the exact percentage, or even a close approximation, of how much sexual assault happens on campus, or what percentage of rape claims are true or false. We can only reasonably know that there are a significant number of victims of both types and both sexes, and that both sexes – rather than just one – deserve our compassion and support.

    Most men do not rape. Most women do not lie about rape. What this means is that generalizing about rape as part of “male culture” or “normative masculinity,” or about rape lies as a part of “female culture” or “normative femininity,” or any other phrase used to tar either sex with a broad brush, is not only not constructive, but also veers very closely to hate speech.That does not mean that both rape and false accusations of rape are not problems; they are problems. What it means is that such behavior is not the norm for either sex, and we need to work toward respecting each other by remembering that.*

    These are, by and large, our values. Unfortunately, those who dominate the discourse on sexual misconduct on campus tend to have a very different view – indeed, it is often the exact opposite. I invite everyone at the University of Montana to consider these values, and to join NCFM in advocating for compassion for men and boys in our educational institutions.

    – TCM

  • jimbeaux

    These fraternities probably have their own “pink ribbon” days in support of breast cancer research – despite the fact that while 12.5% of women will be diagnosed with breast cancer in their lifetime, 16% of men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer. And despite the fact that more men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer this year than women will be diagnosed with breast cancer. By supporting women’s health issued (and vis-a-vis NOT supporting men’s health issues), they are increasing the likelihood that they, their fathers, their brothers, and their sons, will die of prostate cancer. I’m just as befuddled when I see NFL players wearing pink shoes and pink ribbons on their uniforms. They’re all blind and stupid, especially when their audience is mostly men – who truly need to learn about prostate cancer and prostate cancer screening.

    EDIT: as I suspected, a google search of “Kappa Sigma” “Breast Cancer” brought up 118,000 hits where across the nation, the fraternity had fund-raising events for breast cancer. To give them credit, though, they also have prostate cancer fund raising efforts.

  • http://kevin-wayne.blogspot.com Kevin

    Any chance of getting FIRE involved in all of this if push comes to shove?

  • Robert Sides

    If you’re trying to establish a campus presence, the time to do it is the Fall, when the school year begins. The time to make sure everything is in-place then is to start now…during the interim period. If you wait until September, you will fail.

    And another year will go by.

    Having both AVFM and NCFM involved dilutes things. Which one should students choose? What’s the difference between the two? Resources and energies are scarce: why over-lap and duplicate efforts?

    What does NCFM offer that AVFM can’t…and vice versa?

    Also, I think it’d be wise to push the “Postcards for Papa” project, get known by it, THEN use that as leverage in the Fall on campuses “(“Yes, we’re the groups that promoted the PFP event!”)

    I see a huge problem, though: why should wo/men join groups they’ve never heard of?

    I have a history with NCFM, so perhaps I’m biased. I watched it kill the golden goose of national recognition. It was all set to be on Oprah-class shows, had rich men offering to tithe it, and offers to donate farms, etc. as refuges for battered men. NCFM pulled the plug.

    Talk about self-destructive men’s groups!

    I suspect that after 35 years NCFM has very-very-very few members…and a tiny “war chest” (if at all). If it didn’t, we’d hear about it more.

    So would the general public.

    Why would anyone join a group that, after nearly 4 decades, has done relatively little, made so little progress? Sure, there have been a few hard-core, die-hard activists in NCFM, but so what? It’s supposed to be a huge international entity, not a gaggle of 6-7 “lone rangers.”

    The National Organization for Women has “more than 500,000 contributing members…more than 500 local and campus affiliates in all 50 states and the District of Columbia.”

    What does NCFM, which has been around nearly as long, offer in comparison?

    Well, in 1990 the Coalition of Free Men, Inc. added “national” to its name. So… IS it “national”? If so, what does that mean?

    It once had chapters in Boston, New York, Washington DC, and Northern California. No longer. They all went belly-up.

    Today there is ONE chapter in Minnesota, perhaps 2 in California, and 1 in Texas.

    That’s 4 chapters. How many members are in each? Maybe 10?

    There are 2 “provisional chapters” in Tennessee-Kentucky” and Illinois. Not sure what that means. Most likely each is barely surviving, making zero impact on gender issues.

    More vaguely, there are a half dozen “liaisons.” Translation: the occasional pro-male message-in-a-bottle floats in from some marooned fisherman.

    So…what’s the total membership tally? We’re not told. My guess is less than 200 folks internationally, more likely 100.

    And remember: that’s in a group that’s been around THIRTY-SIX YEARS, supported by the likes of Warren Farrell and actors Ed Asner, Gregory Hines, and Michael Moriarty!

    Again: what’s the official membership from NCFM’s annual report?

    Why chain AVFM to NCFM’s albatross?

    NCFM had plenty of opportunities, resources, time, etc. to grow. It didn’t because there was a lack of leadership. And an insane cluelessness about the importance and impact of mass media.

    So are we now to point to NCFM and say it is “the way”? If so, why?

    I think AVFM should create its own organizational wing. NCFM is too tainted, too self-important, too blind to its own grandiosity. It had its day-year-decades in the sun. Best to start anew. I mean, look how much attention AVFM has gotten, and in short order, despite NCFM having had a website much, much longer!

    Joining forces with it will also turn off other, competing men’s groups. Why should they help another group grow at their own expense? What’s in it for them?

    Again, I’m biased. I know some history and where bodies are buried. I worry about asking students to ride 2 horses simultaneously, too. It will just confuse them. Each time they see an AVFM-NCFM joint-venture they won’t know which to join… and so will likely do nothing.

    I think AVFM should lead the pro-male attack on its own, not mute its force. For one thing, reporters are more likely to call one group than two.

    I fear joining forces will weaken impact and kill AVFM’s momentum. Better, like I said, for AVFM to keep its ever-growing online presence and create a real-world activist corps for folks to join when they’re ready.

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      Robert.

      Shut the fuck up. Seriously.

      Shut the fuck up

      Or find yourself another forum because you will not be allowed to remain in this one.

      You’re a belly-aching distraction at this point with very little to offer.

      Edit: for those that think I may have just come down on Robert disproportionately hard.

      Robert has a long history in the MHRM, or MRM if you prefer. He has written a couple of nice articles for this site and does have some good ideas.

      But of late his comments have just tended to boil down to telling everyone else that they don’t know what they are doing, with the subtext that he has all the answers (though he has not accomplished anything more than the people he is disrespecting).

      I have followed his comments a few times recently, urging him to take a different path, but so far I have not even seen him respond to one of those requests. And it is also obvious that if he did actually come in to see how people responded, he was unimpressed with the suggestions.

      We have worked diligently here to form an alliance with NCFM and would like to continue that work with other groups as those alliances strengthen us.

      At this point, with Robert’s refusal to even respond to what has been said to him, and his insistence on the distracting armchair micromanagement, I felt the need to be a little more plain spoken. Thanks.

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      The notion that an organization cannot change, adapt, learn, and grow from its past failures seems foolish to me.

      It also seems foolish, honestly, to think NCFM COULD HAVE done better, or at least much better. I’m pretty convinced certain historical forces just had to converge, such as the Generation X and Y kids finally reaching their 30s and 40s for any real progress to be made.

      (That’s not a slight on the older generation, but rather, goes to my thesis that it is the children who grew up in the wake of all this family devastation who are coming into their own as mature members of mainstream society who are driving much of the change we’re seeing. That had to happen before what we’re seeing could happen, most Boomers just weren’t able to see it as clearly.)

      • http://commonmanmedia.blogspot.com TCM

        Hear, hear.

        To expand on what I think Dean is generally getting at, it is well to remember that men’s and women’s advocacy were not both equally positioned at the starting line in 1966 when NOW was founded. Most of the intellectually foundational books for men’s activism emerged in the 15-year period following 1993: The Myth of Male Power, Who Stole Feminism, Professing Feminism, the War Against Boys, Taken Into Custody, Father/Child Reunion, Legalizing Misandry, The Woman Racket, etc. By contrast, books like The Feminine Mystique, Against Our Will, Sisterhood is Powerful, etc, were written almost 50 years prior.

        The cold hard fact is that before the internet it was virtually impossible for anyone to find out about men’s activism, and it is unreasonable to expect anyone to have gone up against the ideological hegemony of Feminists in the 80s and 90s without such a tool and without the guidance of the aforementioned MRA pioneers, especially in academia during the height of postmodernism. Information just didn’t travel that fast or that broadly back then, no discussion groups existed, and the Feminist stranglehold on the discussion, due to their 50 year head start, was just too strong.

        The internet changed all that, and it was only around the turn of the millennium that men’s discussion emerged as a discernible blip on the internet radar. YouTube, where a lot of MRA discussion diffuses into the popular culture (and where I was introduced to MRA activism), didn’t even exist until 2005. That’s not that long ago.

        • Max Cade

          A very helpful summary of the situation, thank you.

      • http://manamongoaks.com/index.html Ray

        “…most Boomers just weren’t able to see it as clearly.”

        Except for those Boomer men who experienced the horrors of marital dissolution and feminized family-court misandry. The Boomer men who remained in intact marriages still think those Boomer men, whose divorces destroyed them, must have done something to make them responsible for the whole thing.

        The younger generations of males generally know better, many being the witnesses of those divorces, and still others witnesses of the growing misandry in our schools, colleges and universities: rape witch-hunting, Title IX (sports and admissions), torchlight, er, candlelight vigils, men walking in high heels, etc. Those are the issues most college age men are personally concerned about – not so much “Postcards for Papa.”

    • MGTOW-man

      I think Robert is frustrated. He is ready for action. He is the manifestation (on one extreme) of many years of hatred of men and boys by powers-that-be who dishonestly claimed they wanted equality—yet, who do not really know what equality even means…knowing only what they FEEL and confusing it with reality.

      I feel his pain. I want men to be more motivated also…But…

      Robert, please be patient! We have come too far to get bogged down in counter-productivity. There have been some great things happening lately. Build on them. Expand. Be creative. Be blunt. Be something besides a complainer.

      Did you donate? Activism takes a LOT OF MONEY!

      Robert, if you are unhappy with the progress here, (which is the best thing men have going for them), then you are free to take action on your own. Organize a march. Plan a demonstration. Write a book…this time one intended to light a fire under the asses of stupid, cowardly, apathetic, ballgame-obsessing, supposedly “hard wiring”-tethered, wheel-spinning, corral-loving, manhood-confused, duped males who call themselves “men”.

      Spend your time, like Angry Harry said, to, ” undermine, undermine, undermine” the feminists. Spend their time. Keep them on the defensive.

      Do like I do; be a walking activist. Speak out while standing in lines, refuse to date undesirable/violent, stupid, and feminist women, write editors, tell-off relatives when they insult you for/if remaining single, call bluffs, make bumper stickers, posters, ads, organize meet-ups, put messages on car windows in parking lots…do whatever it takes to get the attention of average men out there because THAT is what will make men man-up and do something to protect the futures of the boys.

      You spend a lot of time complaining. I do too, and in ways that some might say is shaming men (hopefully into being truthful with women). But, I also understand the importance of realizing that overnight success is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY—especially given our obstacles—forces that make the feminists’ plight seem downright puny and trite.

      Never give up pal. That is the worst thing you can do. Take a break from all of this for a while. Come back refreshed and ready to pursue another angle.

      Anyway, Why don’t you respond to others’ efforts to reach you? You spend a lot of time writing, why not answer people who care enough to speak to you?

      And on the note of the joining of forces between NCFM and AVfM for mens centers on campuses: That is a great thing. The men and women who are awakened by their messages won’t give a hoot about the coupled forces per se, but such a thing is what might just make it possible for those on the fringes to realize they need to help us, and help all men and boys. I simply do not get how you think that consolidation of forces where appropriate and useful is a bad thing. How?

      • Max Cade

        Robert didn’t respond to my question as to what single target we should fire at, but he did weigh in on the internal rhyme in my slogan for boys. Now I happen to think internal rhyme is important too, but Robert was the one who said nothing counts but big actions and we were wasting our time talking….

    • http://manamongoaks.com/index.html Ray

      “Also, I think it’d be wise to push the “Postcards for Papa” project, get known by it, THEN use that as leverage in the Fall on campuses “(“Yes, we’re the groups that promoted the PFP event!”)”

      I think “Postcards for Papa” is a fine idea, but after having been involved significantly in F4J, and recently a student in college, I can tell you that many college age men are just about clueless about custody and family law issues. It’s not an issue I’d pick to interest college age men.

      Do men have different issues at different ages? Youbetcha!

      If you go back and read the recent fine article on AVfM by Nevada Thompson of NCFM, you’ll get a better idea of what college age men are facing. And the problems NCFM and AVfM are facing, addressing the issues college age men are facing, isn’t just one of organizing. The bigger problem is probably the prejudices against males by political activist academicians who are wielding the feminist agenda, IMO. My hat is off to AVfM and NCFM for the fine work they’ve done thus far against great obstacles.

  • HieronymusBraintree

    These attempts at oppression are the best thing that could happen to the MHRM. People may not have the time to go into issues but they’re generally pretty good at playing spot the asshole. That’s how Gandhi made progress against the British, which inspired MLK. They put the opposition in the position of displaying their intolerance for all to see. The public saw who the assholes really were and turned against them. Works like a charm.

    The more feminists try to oppress us the more we are destined to win. If there’s ever a victory parade for MHR, we should have a hot air balloon in the image of Big Red Bitch.

    (PS: I’d very much like to mention what part of the country MLK had his greatest success but apparently have to remain mum regarding that particular detail in order to keep the peace. I can’t possibly imagine how denying that rather unfortunate regional reality could ever possibly play into the hands of those trying to paint MHRAs as reactionaries who want to turn the clock back. Why the very concept rejects itself.)

  • Denis

    I used to think that fraternities would be a good starting point for men’s groups but I’ve changed my mind after reading about these guys. The want social standing and community acceptance and they won’t get that by dealing with men’s issues. They want to reform their image and they can only do that by bowing down to their detractors.

    I’m starting to think that the nerdy social outcasts are more likely proponents.

  • Seta-San

    isn’t it time to start to refer to it as “patriarchy conspiracy theory”

  • Robert Sides

    Paul wrote: “You’re a belly-aching distraction at this point with very little to offer….”

    I’m sorry you feel that way. I suggested the “Postcards for Papa” project because I thought it would be easy and give guys something to do for Father’s Day.

    I also thought it would generate some mass media attention for fathers, the MRM, and AVFM.

    > “of late his comments have just tended to boil down to telling everyone else that they don’t know what they are doing, with the subtext that he has all the answers”

    Ouch!

    Not my intention. Stings to here it spelled out like that.

    I guess I get upset when I hear folks talk about “things taking time” because I watched that become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know guys here in Massachusetts who lost their kids and families because the groups they joined did little for them, but should/could have done much, much more. The leaders would say things like “it might take 30 years” and I knew then they WOULD. Because they felt no need to act more urgently. Today, 30 years later, they still don’t know why they and their members suffered.

    I don’t want guys to feel that way 3 decades hence.

    And I suppose my past history with NCFM DOES color my view of it now.

    Plus I’ve been involved in numerous MRM “joint ventures” and “coalitions” that reporters (later) told me they didn’t investigate because they were busy professionals and couldn’t be bothered trying to figure out WHO to speak with about what. I fretted the same might happen with AVFM-NCFM. That is: who will reporters call? What are students to do: join a group? Visit a website? etc. But then, maybe all that is being planned.

    > “I have followed his comments a few times recently, urging him to take a different path, but so far I have not even seen him respond to one of those requests.”

    My bad. I have several irons in several fires and don’t often revisit posts (I figure my comments are usually at the tail-end anyway). Plus I’m helping a friend care for his 90-year-old father…and himself…so I’m not always near a computer.

    Maybe I’ve overextended myself a mite, too.

    > “At this point, with Robert’s refusal to even respond to what has been said to him…”

    Again, mea culpa. I SHOULD have responded to follow-up comments. I didn’t. However, it definitely was NOT a “refusal.”

    In my defense, and with your permission Paul, I’d like to at least show folks I’ve done more than flap my gums and/or been a keyboard warrior.

    If anyone’s interested, here’s a website listing some of my contributions to the “movement.” It may also shed some light on my frustration. Not to excuse it, but perhaps explain it. After all, I’m human, too:

    http://treborsedis.com/

    The plan was to create an online “MRA resume” that media reporters/producers could look at, perhaps interviewing me thereafter as an AVFM representative.

    Oh well.

    It’s probably best that I don’t comment any more. It seems to irk all involved.

    Now, I HAD planned to submit a piece on the recent brouhaha in Steubenville, OH, relating it to my Buckeye alma mater (whose term ends next month). I figured it might fuel some media interest over the Summer.

    I still might. If I do, hopefully Paul will see fit to print it. Other than that, it might be best if I take the Summer off, see how things pan out in the Fall.

    Sorry if I upset anyone. It’s just my personal sense of feeling impotent, So much feels deja vu all over again: things looking about to break out, then imploding. Like when Robert Bly urged men to reclaim their manhood only watch guys head for the hills… and sweatlodges… instead of combatting feminism.

    Today, the Internet seems to be changing things for the better for men, while also allowing feminists to do more and more misandry at lightning speed (funded by huge government grants and set-asides). It’s like we finally got some surgical-tubing slingshots only to see feminists tweaking nukes.

    Anyhoo, it all tends to make me grit my teeth and lash out mindlessly. Comment forums, in particular, seem to be my kryptonite.

    Finally, and for the record: I’m a straight, unmarried, white guy. I’ve never faced the hell of divorce court, lost my kids or home, been accused of harassment or sexual assault, etc. In fact, I was an early supporter of feminism. I got interested in the male side of gender issues when I noted “our half” of the world being routinely ignored (if not mocked, demonized, or made subject to biased laws). So my involvement in the MRM is “personal” only in that I’m both human and male. I don’t “hate females,” nor am I driven to “get even” for what “teh wimminz” done did to me.

    I’ll check back later to see if the mods publish this. If they do, I promise not to comment. If your hear from me again it will be solely via published pieces.

    • MGTOW-man

      “Like when Robert Bly urged men to reclaim their manhood only watch guys head for the hills… and sweatlodges… instead of combatting feminism. ”
      —Bly was right on the money, huh?

      I loved his book. However, most men are too busy spinning their wheels with their copy-cat behavior likened unto loving to cling to losing, while getting corralled with the herd—all, ultimately for another piece of ass, more or less.

      Such is the most manhood they can achieve.

      Actually, in this context, they are probably still boys inside…not man enough to be honest with disorderly women because their priorities are all wrong in a changed and deteriorating world.

      They aren’t capable of manhood; they do not even know what it is!…confusing it with behaving like what can be described as typical male from yesteryear. But manhood and maleness are two entirely different things! They do not see it because of the feminists’ hegemony, lace curtain, and manipulations of males.

      That is why our job is to go after their minds (the boys’), not wait until they find us. I firmly believe we should be more proactive in finding ways to change the boys…and love them, accept them, no matter how they manage to outsmart feminism, no matter if they shun women and refuse to parent ( or try to…until she gets tired of not successfully controlling everything and having her way all the time, then uses her unfair, unbalanced power to oppress him and violate him so badly, that most all he has known and cherished will change.

      That is what we want to do, isn’t it? Outsmart feminism? Then we DEFINITELY need to change the boys plans!

      This is why I think manhood attainment for boys must change if we stand much of a believable chance at combating something hellbent on foisting a emotion-powered, reality-skewed, synthetic replacement scheme derived from feminists’ misguided and bitter envy of natural males (they call it “privilege”), while not even registering that they have always really had the most important power—all pursued by spoiled, obliviously selfish participants who want their way all the time.

      In a world in which everything has changed, why should men be the only thing that hasn’t?

  • Ben

    What a bunch of pathetic, politically correct posturing! I am so sick of the PC on college campuses. I have 22 days till graduation and I can say that Feminists and political correctness have ruined the whole 4 years. It is disturbing. Male worship of women is totally like a sexual domination thing where they like to be dominated by women but they have a fetish about sex in public.For a man to deny male human rights and spout off the feminist talking points so publicly is public pornography. He must have jizzed his underwear while reporting this. How far will it go? Will college fraternity men soon begin holding “hit my groin with a high heel shoe while I beg to help with women’s progress” day? It would not surprise me. I wonder how many college guys who walk in her heels go home and masturbate to the thought of how they were shamed , humiliated, dominated by having to walk behind the model who led the walk, and publicly called rapists as soon as they got home while wearing nothing but their heels. Plausible explanation? I think it is.

    • MGTOW-man

      You go Ben!

      Walking a mile in her shoes is nothing compared to walking a mile in HIS shoes. They do not even know the half of it!

      Congrats on graduating.

      A suggestion, even though you are sick of it, remain vigilante about being opposed to misandry. Teach this to all the males at home. Get their attention. Keep it. If we persevere, we will eventually get over this male worshiping of women which has turned them into herded cowards.

      …and they call themselves “men”. Shit, they wouldn’t know true manhood if the abstract concept somehow morphed into a rattlesnake and bit them between the eyes.

      For starters, manhood has the built-in and noble characteristic of honesty—something alien to those customers.