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On AVFM and MRA London

In keeping with yesterday’s announcements I want to offer a clarification of AVFM’s position on recent events at MRA London.

As most of you who follow things here know, there has been a shake-up within that UK men’s rights group which has resulted in disputes between members over who is in charge, and even if there ever was a group over which anyone was ever in charge.

Being situated in Texas and having had conflicting accounts with different members of the group has added even more to the confusion, but I have been provided with enough information to make a decision on what AVFM policy will be regarding the entity MRA London.

Before I go into the details of that decision there are some things I want to make clear. First, neither I nor AVFM as a whole were in any way involved in the internal problems of MRA London. I received sketchy reports from different people involved as to their take on problems, but the problems themselves were entirely internal to that organization. I doubt seriously that anyone on either side of this would dispute that.

I have no position at all on who was “right or wrong” in terms of their internal dispute. My decision to continue to recognize Andy Thomas as the AVFM connection to MRA London was not based on a determination that he was right and his opponents were wrong, but on our established history and other factors that I will expand on later in this statement.

I am not in the least interested in trying to ascertain who was more or less at fault in MRA London’s internal conflicts. It is not that I am indifferent to right and wrong in this case, but simply as a pragmatic matter I cannot and won’t try to wade through several weeks/months of infighting, insinuation and accusations between people in conflict 8,000 miles from here and even pretend that I can come up with an informed judgment.

Anyone and everyone is welcome to cast blame on me for my choices all they want, but any suggestion that I had a hand in MRA London’s implosion are in error. I am simply trying to pick up the pieces here in a way that benefits the mission of this website.

That means I am not picking sides, but instead picking what looks to me to be the best path for AVFM and for the MHRM, generally speaking.

My experience here is with Andy Thomas as the official liaison between MRA London and AVFM. That has been on our masthead for months. All my official dealings with the organization have been with Andy. Andy is the owner and webmaster of mralondon.org. Andy was the individual from MRA London that spearheaded all the activism I was aware of, including the confrontation with officials of the Irish London Center which eventually led to the Radfems being locked out of that venue.

Andy remains, in my view, the one individual who has led activism efforts from that group. The only other person affiliated with MRA London that I had any regular dealings with is Erin Pizzey.

Speaking of Erin, she has already come out in support of Andy in this dustup.

The question now becomes one of simply dealing with realities on the ground as they are at this moment, and remembering that aside from all the drama and theatrics, my obligation is to foster and follow the activism.

Implosions like this are messy. People get hurt, on all sides. Betrayal is felt, on all sides. Fingers are pointed in all directions, and no matter where you land your support, you are going to pay a price with someone.

If it is like every other situation like this I have encountered, there is blame enough to go around for everyone. Like I said, though, it is not my position, nor am I interested in it being my position, to attempt to sort out and pass judgment on someone else’s mess. My only job here is to protect AVFM and to ally with individuals and groups that have the potential to enhance our efforts.

So to cut to the chase, several factors become clear.

  • At best, MRA London in its previous form was a loose amalgamation of individuals with a shared interest in men’s activism;
  • There was no central authority for the group that we know of;
  • The only actual activists that we had any formal relationship with out of MRA London were Andy Thomas and Erin Pizzey;
  • Andy Thomas is the owner and webmaster of mralondon.org and is the only one that has ever acted in that capacity;
  • Andy Thomas is asserting ownership of the name MRA London while this is in conflict with others in the organization;
  • Andy Thomas is asserting that he is the official leader of that group, which is also in dispute by other members;
  • Andy presents as the most compelling and credible candidate to actually use the MRA London group, in whatever form it ultimately takes, as a platform to launch organized and directed forms of men’s rights activism;
  • Current rumor (unconfirmed) is that the previous members of MRA London have already formed a new group, under a new banner. So, the decision here is a relatively simple one.

AVFM recognizes Andy Thomas, as it always has, as the official liaison between AVFM and MRA London. And since he now singularly asserts his authority over the name and infrastructure of the group, we recognize that as well.

There are other factors, having to do with the best interests of AVFM and the MHRM, that lend more support to our decision to maintain the historical relationship we have had with Andy Thomas of MRA London. I am not at liberty to discuss them, but they are compelling.

That being said, in my mind any additional reasons are not necessary. The case is made quite clear without relying on the other reasons.

I understand fully that there will be dissent to this action. Anyone who likes, including other members or former members of MRA London and other interested parties are welcome to voice that dissent in the comments to this announcement.

What will not be allowed is for any conflicts or residual resentments about this to infect this site as a whole. This is the thread for bickering, if people want it, but I won’t allow the disagreements to spill over into subsequent posts to this website.

The AVFM position has been established on this, and now we intend to move on back to our mission. What happened to MRA London won’t be repeated here.

As a footnote to these events, there was some criticism that dirty laundry was being hung out. I understand the distaste for that. I have learned some of those lessons the hard way. But the fact is that this shakeup was not going to go unnoticed. If anyone concerned about the public nature of the dispute feels they could have handled it more effectively than getting it out and done, the comments here are also a good place to detail your plans.

In time, this affair will pass. I am fully confident that most, if not all the members and former members of MRA London will move on to better days, having learned from the experience.

About Paul Elam

Paul Elam is the founder and publisher of A Voice for Men, the founder of A Voice for Men Radio, the AVfM YouTube Channel, and appears weekly on AVFM Intelligence Report, Going Mental with Dr. Tara Palmatier and weekly on MANstream Media with Warren Farrell and Tom Golden.

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  • http://www.woolybumblebee.com/about Kristina Hansen

    Well said Paul. I am not completely aware of all the brouhaha, nor do I want to be. I just want to say that I support your decisions here and that the main concern for everyone should be activism and men’s rights/issues, not this mess that will only serve to divide and distract. Enough play time everyone… It’s time to get back to work.

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

      I’ll second that.

    • http://gravatar.com/jjrockmale El Bastardo

      I will third that.

      As a service member, I am use to people getting butt hurt or wanting more authority over actions. But that is why we have a determined hierarchy, and it is imperative to the mission that people put personal feelings aside, and focus on the mission. Rarely does everyone agree.

      I hope that those who are in MRA London, and those who were can put aside their differences and work together on at least not getting in each others way, or hopefully, getting past the past. What is important more than who is in charge, is what they are there for in the first place.

      Already, D-bag futrelle is watching this with glee. He can’t stop himself, and if he jizzes himself for something like this it is because his spineless whimpering little fatcell is incapable of compassion for males who don’t whip themselves and agree with their own mental, physical, and emotional castration. Add to the fact that as a team, they ousted the rad-fems from getting two separate events together.

      We are going to get some infighting on the way to victory; as long as we can still work in conjunction if not together still means we are moving forward. And in the big picture, our mission is what is most important.

      You all can get over it, and if some can’t then they are putting their ego and pride in front of the males they can save and most importantly the end to the destruction of our kids. It does not matter that there is a squabble or two as long as it does not halt the forward progress of the movement as a whole.

      Right now, MRA London, and the UK in general are maybe a decade ahead of us in regards to combating feminism. I hope they can see that their work is more important; we need them. If they can’t work directly together, then at least don’t hinder each other or try one-upmanship.

      Stay strong across the pond fellas.

      • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

        Boobzie seems to think this issue is central to the men’s movement. Perhaps he has never experienced the sort of quirks and adjustments that accompany success and growth. If making a Two Part Series out of this is the best he can do to “mock” us, I daresay we might just survive his savage attacks.

        Oh my. Would you look at all those red dots on the spinning globe in the sidebar!

        • Turbo

          Phhhhht !! Irrelevant is irrelevant.

          Every successful animal has to deal with the odd leech now and then.

          • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

            The spambot’s on overdrive at the moment due to the site renovations, I’m going in there at least 3-5 times daily to clear it out and I know I’m not the only one.

          • Turbo

            I fully understand, no problems. Hope the renovations are going as planned.

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          Oh, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! For reals? So desperate for a headline that a dustup like this is important to him? Hey Boobzie, how much more frenzied are you going to be, pressing the same button over and over again until you practically break your fingers before you realize it just isn’t going to cough up the cookies that it used to? Your audience already started with an average IQ barely cresting the 3 digit mark by a hair, and it’s so far down in the 2-digit range now that they probably think “Dumb and Dumber” was a documentary.

          I hope one day his readers realize that it’s 1928 and they’re busy throwing money at the Klan in order to protect the virtue of white women from the threatening hordes of evil negroes that might rape them at any moment.

          I also hope one day Boobzie realizes he is our era’s Charles Coughlin.

          Oh, wait, no, that’s giving him waaaaaaay too much credit. Our modern Charles Coughlin would be, without a doubt, PZ Myers. Boobzie is someone far more pathetic. I’m thinking he’s probably our Samuel Roper .

          He’s one of my big inspirations for jumping in with both feet to AVfM by the way. A woman I used to like and respect started linking his shit, and from my time in political punditry I know an honest critic and honest partisan from a lying manipulating bully–I can pretty much spot it in seconds. When I realized the professional misandrists had stooped just that low in their bullying, it was proof positive that being nice wasn’t going to work anymore and was in fact counterproductive.

          History will not be kind to these people. People will say “who?” and maybe find an obscure wikipedia entry and just shake their heads and wonder how anybody could be like that.

    • Harrywoodape

      Ah…growing pains.

  • Murray Pearson

    Together with MRA London members and concerned outsiders, I have written a response to Andy’s article. Any chance that might be printed?

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      You are welcome to post it here in the comments as long as it refrains from the personal attacks you were making earlier

      • Murray Pearson

        Here it is:

        A Dispatch from Under the Rug
        by The London Underground

        Something is rotten in the United Kingdom. There are factions forming and in-fighting; pettiness is getting higher priority than the goals of the Movement, and we cannot stand by silently while this happens on our shift.

        We are the men and women of MRA London and men and women who support them. We have been cut off from our media channels in a coup d’état, and we appeal to the voice of reason and ask that our arguments be considered.

        Social activism is a dangerous game, fraught with peril. Parallels may be drawn with high-altitude mountaineering; those who have read Jon Krakauer’s Into Thin Air will understand that a successful Everest mountaineer has enough manic determination to meet his (or her) goal, while at the same time retaining a grasp on reason and self-assessment. Too much untempered enthusiasm yields “summit fever”, which is usually fatal.

        In the same way, activists for human rights — who are harried at every step — require a grim determination to keep going. But MHRAs can get summit fever too; and when they do, the results are not desirable or pleasant for anyone.

        The greatest and most vocal advocates tend to be the people who have been badly hurt by the status quo, but who have survived. It is therefore both fair and accurate, and not a value judgment, to say that many MHRAs are “damaged people.”

        But if there is one thing our collective experience should teach us, it’s that being damaged or victimized somehow is not something to hold against a person’s character. It’s something that most of us have experienced. It’s soul-crushing and perspective-distorting. It stinks.

        But for the unfortunate caught inside the bubble, things look the same on their end — but everything else looks strange — and this can easily result in paranoia. Scrambled lines of communication are cut off. Through the rippling glass of semireality, attempts to mediate are seen as hostile action and repelled.

        This is where the large amount of electronic communication we engage in can go awry. People are made to communicate with much more than words — body language, eye contact — and these channels are lost in Skype chats. Even tonal inflection is mostly gone in text media: chat windows, emails.

        This loss of reason combined with fear and paranoia is the expected result if the stress hormones in one’s brain reach sufficiently high levels. When really outrageous amounts of stress hormones are present, the moderation and logic of the fore-brain is lost and control reverts to the amygdala.

        The amygdala is the centre of “The Three F’s: fighting, fleeing and sexual reproduction.” If the frontal lobes are cut off, then the dominant emotional state will take control. A fearful person will become paranoid. An angry person, violent. A person with a disabled frontal lobe could in principle commit sexual offences without realising what is going on at all at the time, and yet present no risk of offending when the stress hormones are at more reasonable levels.

        Clearly, people in this state are a danger to themselves and to those who work with and care for them. But to react with vengeance or spite in return solves nothing. We extend our hands in compassion and ask our brother, our long-time leader, to seek help. It is not an act of weakness, but of great strength, to do so. PTSD is not the result of failing to be strong, but of succeeding at strength for too long and of needing a rest.

        We ask for control of the MRA London website to be returned to the members, and that the site cease and desist from making allegations without evidence.

        We offer the services of the redoubtable Aimee McGee as mediator. We suggest emulating the Quaker model used in “Meeting for Business,” as it is non-confrontational and seeks to find consensus in dispute.

        Let us patch up this rift before the ship starts listing.

        • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

          Murray – Not at all sure what your post was supposed to achieve. Frankly after over 3 decades of activism in the UK all I can see is a need to smash heads together and get some people on basic Business Management courses! Is it a Coup De Ta – is it panic cos a gate was not closed and now it’s too late?

          I deal in PTSD so all of your references, and what I have to also read as innuendoes, have not passed me by. It’s all a nice mess – a lovely bucket of crap.

          When you have a bucket of crap you can do two things – pour it out on the floor, role round in it and use it as a pity fest. Stinks the place up though. On the other hand, you can actually compost the crap and then use it to grow roses.

          I have no idea what the hell is going on behind the pixels – but I’m watching, cos any good organisers, strategist and managers should have considered this eventuality (What Ever It Is) and planned for it. I’m not waiting for or even interested in seeing who is right – I’m looking for the one or ones who are advancing and doing the business. Pragmatism and Politics are often found in the same bed. Implosion is just so common, and frankly is just a factor of any business venture or activist activity.

          If I only had a Quid for the times I have had to carry the burden in supposed loose groups and coalitions ……

          Tip from an old timer – people who can back you as public figures look for the best bet and not who’s right! At the moment one person has assets, but that does not mean they are in the right, will do right and even come out right. The only difference between good business people and good activists is how they measure returns … other than that the same skills base applies. And More than that, the establishment will look for good business and not give a fig for hurt feelings!

          As more is made public and more comment made I do see gaps being filled in and I get a better picture even as someone very much on the outside. I’ve heard enough to get the bigger picture. But all that is irrelevant, cos from the little I have found out directly I know that strategic planning and management should have been in place and It wasn’t.

          A Pox and Shame on “”All”” Your Houses … the Right the Wrong and The Wronged, because you failed to do the basics and behave with long term vision! If MRA London was so important to you why did you fail to ensure Its safety and security?

          Now lets see who has the head for business and the genitals for dealing with gender conflict! P^)

          • Ricardo

            Never have I had to form a group but I have been part of many, volunteer and not, and there this old phrase, “those who fail to plan, plan to fail.” i know every good group I was in it was a wonderful thing because it felt as though we all were equal…. but then when the disagreement started then everybody hates each other and if control is not taken everybody, they leave or they produce nothing.

            If you cannot find a plan for how you will grow, you will not grow much. But if you plan too much and rigid then you will also fail. It is a difficult balance, too difficult for me I know…

          • Murray Pearson

            I’m sorry the message in my post was unclear to you. Nobody I spoke to while composing it found it vague.

            My point is that Andy appears unwell, and he is lashing out like a drowning man and causing potentially significant damage to the Movement. He is refusing to make his views known, and he wrote that mouth-foaming screed; and yet he gets THREE articles and there is no space for a single retort.

            Andy Thomas does not need his paranoid delusions of grandeur to be propped up by people like Paul and Erin. Rather, help needs to be found for this man to relieve his obvious distress. Can’t any of you feel his pain?

            What happened to, “Compassion for Men and Boys”?

            Whatever happend to a movement founded on logical principles and truth?

            We cannot, I repeat CANNOT EVER afford to reject critical thought. If we do, we are no better than our adversaries.

            We must find a way to communicate truly and fairly and honestly.

            We have to be [b]better people than our adversaries.[/b]

            And, try as I might — and I am pretty fucking tenacious — I cannot see a reason to support a person who’s locked themselves up in The Glass Bastille, polishing his sword with his fantasy-mate.

            What about all the other people, whom we all know he has thrown out? Whose articles he’s deleted?

            “Wait, wait,” I hear you cry, “how do you know he’s deleted stories?”

            http://www.mralondon.org/2013/04/history-in-making.html
            Gone

            http://www.mralondon.org/2013/04/female-mra-battles-radfems-on-mumsnet.html
            Gone

            These are two articles by one person. If you care, I can ask around for more. Incidentally, if you want to read what’s been censored, put the URLs into a Google search, and read the cached copy. WHOOPS! Can’t delete THAT, Andy.

            People behaving like this should be shut out and offered help, not coddled or supported in their delusions. And I believe Andy is paranoid and delusional. He needs help.

          • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

            **Can’t any of you feel his pain?**

            Actually – NO! It’s quite simple for people who are not involved to answer that question! So to make it clear again… NO!

            I would also ask why should people with NO involvement care for the question? It smacks more of Cliché and Milieu Control. I have to say that the rhetorical style is very “Emotional Blackmail”! So many have dealt with that and moved so far beyond it. One could even say it’s usage is triggering for other people, so why would it be used …. even inadvertently? It smacks of issues!

            Call em harsh and even nasty … you don’t know me, and if you did you would have heard me asking very impolite and disturbing questions long ago…. ask Mr Ford … and a bit like Alan Sugar I don’t mess about with evasion and denials of personal responsibility.

            I’ve already said that everyone has been feckless and failed to show basic business and activist acumen, so breast beating with the likes of “”What happened to, “Compassion for Men and Boys”?”” .. well It don’t work with me. If that had been a central driver then asset protection and planning would have been there to allow such compassion to have been manifested long term and not fall over at the first hurdle.

            At least you are now being more direct and stating your views that someone is ill. As to that illness and the inferences and innuendoes left lying about… are they backed by any form of professional experience/opinions? I do hope that suitable expert opinions are held in writing?

            So is it reality that someone has some form of pre-frontal lobe insult, PTSD, and may or may not have issue with memory and has has been inferred is linked to sexual offences they can’t remember committing? Paranoid?

            Forgive me for having a Business – Charity – Trustee Head On and wondering about Libel and UK Courts? See why I wonder about Expert Opinion In Writing?

            Even so, If I was a manager or Trustee of an organisation where any representative posted as you have … Your Ass Would not have touched the grass… you would have been kicked into ORBIT! Formal Disciplinary measures/procedures would have been activated within about 15 seconds of me starting reading.

            Of course what the hell would what has been posted matter when it comes to any UK based organisation … and the laws of Libel, Defamation, Slander? The UK is not as yet the 51st state and the US constitution does not apply with supposed free speech!

            Pro activists deal with reality and not some bad plot for a soap opera or last seasons CSI.

            Good management does not pussy foot about with innuendo and inference … and does not play to the gallery! You link the perils of activism to high altitude mountaineering (I’ve been there too). I’ve also had to deal with the Dramas back stage with many Divas.

            Believe me Annoxia and Brain damage are nowt when it comes to the Ego of an Opera Diva …. and Pavaroti was Worse!

            As I have said I’m watching to see good Business … and as an Advocate for Queers, Cripples and Equality I have no issues with Neurodiversity and it’s are not an obstacle to success or achievement. I’m Just an Equal Opportunity Bigot!

            Could it be that the person of concern is showing better management by staying stumb? So much for Neurodiversity as an attack vector and discriminator.

            Troubles are unavoidable, it’s how they are reacted to that makes the big difference. If anything that has been inferred is valid I do hope that someone is being responsible and acting … and anyone with valid management experience knows, you stay stumb and say nowt unless you really have to … and I’m still looking to see anything being said that has actual value to progress and respect. Once that has been shown, legalities may be possible to address.

            I’m looking for progress and best practice … and until then I’ll be in the bar. I’ve seen this Pantomime so many times before. Call me harsh…. call me what you like… it’s up to others to show me what “I” should invest in!

            I’m a Shrewd Investor! I’m interested in Investing, I want to know about returns and above all else I want to see progress.

          • Murray Pearson

            @iiamnotanmrabut
            In no way was I implying Andy has or will commit criminal acts. I am discussing the general issue of stress on the human mind, which seems to me to be a pertinent topic to out Movement that is not being discussed. I am attempting to create a dialogue about and awareness of these dangers.

            If you disconnect a person’s pre-frontal cortex, you will have problems. The prefrontal cortex can be disrupted in various ways, the crudest being frontal lobotomy in which it’s destroyed. But recent research, reported in the April 2012 Scientific American in an article entitled, “This is Your Brain in Meltdown”, described how levels of dopamine (DA) and norepinephrine (NE), which are found in people exposed to chronic uncontrollable stress, can cause the signals along the paths out of the prefrontal cortex to be dumped out, rendering it impotent.

            I mention PTSD because the odds are very good he’s got it. Most of us do.

            You describe yourself as a “shrewd investor.” I am not. I do not give a fuck about investment tactics, because they are fundamentally unethical. You won’t impress me that way.

            I prefer honest communication. If you can’t take it, then maybe it’s time to invest in some big-girl pants.

          • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

            @Murray Pearson

            Your comments are very clarifying – you seem to be projecting a great deal concerning stress – cerebral shutdown and Fugue States. I’m left with the impression that you have a mish mash of ideas and a lack of outlet.

            Thank you for clarifying that you were not inferring that anyone has been involved in criminal activity, such as sexual assault. So nice that you got it after you were promoted. The issue remains that should not have needed to be prompted. That rules you out as any contender for future consideration.

            However you has still not taken responsibility for progress forward. It shows that you are not a person to take seriously when it comes to organisational set up and progress.

            All the best – and me and my Big Girl pants are fine …. and you seem to have missed the bit when I said I know all about things such as PTSD as well as charity and organisational set up.

            Me granny don’t need an lesson in sucking spherical ones. She taught me far too well. P^)

          • http://www.woolybumblebee.com/about Kristina Hansen

            “When you have a bucket of crap you can do two things – pour it out on the floor, role round in it and use it as a pity fest. Stinks the place up though. On the other hand, you can actually compost the crap and then use it to grow roses.”

            Well said indeed!

          • Murray Pearson

            Is it well said? What concrete action does it suggest? None — it’s still a pile of shit, as far as I can tell <3

        • strix

          It’s true that hurt and trauma can be powerful motivators, but it doesn’t follow that those most motivated are the most effective. Too much unresolved pain can compromise judgement and lead to counter-productive action.

          It’s action that matters most: what people do, not why they do it, however justified and understandable. Neuropsyche is useful and interesting in understanding some of the why, but it neither diminishes agency nor absolves accountability.

          • Murray Pearson

            That is true. I did not mean to imply that leaders are necessarily traumatized. It was more of an observation of correlation.

            Your comment on neuropsychology seems overly general to me. When I read the article on stress it really resonated with me — you can probably tell that. But in my instance — which I can’t describe in detail due to a publication ban — the dissociation was total and effects were utterly catastrophic. If I can help one person see a dangerous situation like that and head it off, then I have done my work.

            How, exactly, does a situation in which someone thinks they’re asleep but they aren’t ACTING asleep not diminished agency? There is no situational awareness.

          • strix

            A full-on dissociative fugue is a completely different matter and does, indeed, diminish agency. Anybody suffering this condition needs urgent psychiatric attention and definitely should not be active on men’s issues in public. That goes for the rank-and-file as much as the leadership.

            Unless you are suggesting that Andy and the other MRA London folk are suffering from this condition, they are still in possession of all their agency and faculties and are therefore accountable for their actions.

            As fascinating subjects as they are, neuropsyche, stress hormones and neurotransmitters etc are not particularly relevant when it comes to activist conduct. It gives good reason to be sympathetic to sufferers of chronic stress, but it still does not excuse bad behaviour. Otherwise anybody’d be able to justify any amount of irrationality on the grounds of “I’m hurting and therefore my behaviour is neither my fault nor my responsibility.”

            I know that sounds indifferent, but I promise you, I’m not unsympathetic. I’ve been through too much, including a lot of hard work and therapy, not to empathise.

            That said, boundaries matter, and activism is not therapy. iimnotmrabut said it best:

            MRA London is not therapy – if some have found participation therapeutic that may well be of personal benefit to them, but that is where ownership ends – their personal benefit.

            I’ll go out of my way to validate and support victims of psychological trauma — in the right space and moment — but I won’t support said victims lashing out against other MHRAs and organisations based solely on feelings. By all means, call out Andy on specific issues if you’ve got objective grounds to do so, but calling Andy ‘paranoid and delusional’ when you are not in full possession his perspective is not helpful.

            (That said, I have a lot of sympathy for what you said elsewhere about confidential information, and I agree that it is deeply problematic to justify actions on grounds that can’t be shared. Yet, sometimes that’s necessary, I guess. I wish I knew what those grounds were in this case, but I guess I never will and that is deeply frustrating and unsatisfying.)

        • http://www.paulmurray.id.au Paul Murray

          It has been some hours since I read anything as startlingly void of content as most of this. Leaving aside the grandiose truisms, the digressions about mountain-climbing, the “I have read a book!”, and the “I am not a doctor, but I play one on the internet” google-grade knowledge about brain structure, and the sheer gratuitousness of mentioning sexual offences (I wonder what the story is, there?), we are left with:

          “We are the men and women of MRA London and men and women who support them” and “We ask for control of the MRA London website to be returned to the members”. To which one can only reply, “excuse me, who?” I don’t see a list of names at the end of this, only one name – “Murray Pearson” at the head. If this is meant to represent people, the people whom it represents need to say who they are. A link to a list of names (even login ids) would be sufficient.

          By ‘member’, you mean ‘whoever has a logon at the mralondon website’, yes? Signing up to a website means nothing. You ask for “control” of the website to be returned to these unspecified ‘members’. By “control” you mean “website moderator”, yes? So by ‘members’, *which* members, exactly do you mean? You? Then why not say so? Why not simply say “I want to be a mod at mralondon”?

          “that the site cease and desist from making allegations without evidence” – such as? A link to another document might have been nice here. People new to this squabble haven’t the faintest, you know.

          And as to Quaker “Meeting for business” – I think you’ll discover, if you try it, that it really only works well if everyone is a Quaker. For everyone else, there is Robert’s Rules of Order.

          Rather than “patching up the rift” before “the ship starts listing”, why not launch your own ship – start your own website? Of course, it will take money, trouble, and time on your part to do so. But then we’ll have an armada, won’t we? That’s got to be good. And who knows: perhaps the mralondon ship will cease listing with fewer people attempting to throw their weight around.

        • Keith

          While I would normally refrain from responding to such……as a “damaged person” that you portray me as I will simply state that I find your presentation intellectually insulting and repugnant. You remind me of one that prescribes ritalin by false accusation. You suggest a veiled threat by false accusation… another insult. It becomes difficult to muster respect for your position. Rise up and engage your doing rather than your being. You obviously possess the acumen to express so do it …….we can get bigger or we can get smaller ………..the operative word is “we” ….do it and be it. While I may not like “AndyMan” I do love him and his doings.

          • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

            Neil – a name has no value in UK law and even under international treaty. An Image – Logo – Brand does. So whoever registered the domain is likely to have a claim of ownership and brand.

            Aint law and reality a poke in the soft bits!

            It take quite a serious view of organisations and need. No matter who owns what it’s always the person needing the Organisation and not the other way round.

            People who get wedded to Organisations to fill a personal need – or set up organisations to fill a personal need always get upset when they realise that They need to the Org but the Org don’t need them.

            MRA London is not therapy – if some have found participation therapeutic that may well be of personal benefit to them, but that is where ownership ends – their personal benefit. If they think they have ownership of anything more than that they have been mistaken.

            People need Mens Rights Groups – the Groups Don’t need them.

            There is a Clean, Virgin, Brand waiting to be grabbed and utilised. It has all Top level Domains free and all country Domains are free too ….. It’s a branding and organisation building wet dream!

            http://www.MHRAUK.####

            So is that Men’s Human Rights Action – Activists – Armchairs – Asinine?

            I’d like to hear from folks with big vision and Gonads to make change happen…. cos at the moment there is s great deal of spilt milk and tears that oddly reminds me of Genesis 1970’s … so is it Squonk …. Robbery Assault & Battery … or Nursery Crime?

            Maybe it’s Just “Entangled”?

          • strix

            @iimnotmrabut,

            This.

            Especially the bits about “not therapy” and domain ownership.

          • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

            @Strix The jaws of the Bottomless Pity Pit loom. The more this beast gets fed the more it reminds me of a Pride set up I was asked to oversee back in the 1990’s.

            So many people getting involved and coming along with their bits to throw into the melting pot as just “””””So”””” Important and having to be included.

            It was interesting getting a written constitution in place which had a recipe and none of THEIR ingredients included. After 12 months and the loss of over £500K in sponsorship potential and the loss of full governmental backing it all went down the plughole.

            I remember one group and their leader who was comically obstructive – everything that was being looked at was met with “But we have to discuss this”, a lovely way to obstruct, delay and express significant control issues.

            It was lovely to see the results on the assigned date – three people with placards marching and screaming all about Pride when all they were doing was displaying Pure Victimhood …. but then again that is exactly what they had wanted from day one.

            I was greeted by “But we have to discuss this”, and they were treated to a very public dressing down as to how they had selfishly placed their Damage over the interests of Millions of other GAY people. It was funny to see then skulk off after that. They caused so much damage to brand, idea, ideals and above all else Good Will it took another 10 years to get the event up and running.

            Never underestimate the need of some to be victimised and down trodden. They can go lower that others can possibly imagine, and their needs for The “Pity Pit” are bottomless. I even give marks out of 10 for style and execution as they Dive in making Tom Daly look positively amateur. Triple backward somersault with double twist and blowing a raspberry is the best so far… and it was topped off with the most deliberate belly flop for extra affect(sic)!

            … and I see that the http://www.MHRAUK.### domain suite is still up for grabs … so we will see who either has the Gonads for Growth and development, or maybe it will be snapped up by someone who’s into massive spoilers and obstruction?

            I’d grab it all meself except I’m going into retirement after decades of ranching felines and having succeeded too. P^)

  • Iron John

    Paul, thank you for this article. I know it was not an easy or popular decision, but I am glad that it has been made one way or another. It’s hard for any community to function when so much is left up in the air.

    Now that we all know the score, it’s time to start dealing with this new reality. I would like to make a suggestion to all parties directly involved and effected by this affair. Assuming you are all willing, I would like to setup an internet based mini-conference for you. It would give all sides involved a fair chance to communicate with one another without the pressure of being face to face. And it would provide a private meeting place for you to work out issues in the future, with caring moderators outside your own group. I think this would be a very healthy way of addressing the challenges you will inevitably face in the months and years ahead.

    Please let me know what you think.

    • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

      I am all for your ideas, if, and please pardon the bluntness, I don’t have to be involved, lol.

      • Iron John

        Fair enough, Paul. What I am thinking of here is something akin to the hotline which went between Washington, D.C. and Moscow during the Cold War. The red phone was always on the desk of each leader so they could communicate with each other when things heated up. It was available to private parties only, had but a few operators, and most importantly kept the users from pressing that big red button which launched the nukes. : )

  • aimeemcgee

    I am speaking as someone facilitating the meeting we are due to have on Saturday in London, not as a member of any MRA group.

    On Saturday, I will be meeting with those who wish to participate from the group of individuals who identified themselves as MRA London.

    This process is to decide what direction the group wishes to go, and this could range from being individual activists with a loose affiliation, a formalised group with a charter and an individual identity, affiliation with other groups or a decision that the original group has no future purpose.

    From communication with quite a few of the interested parties, I do no pre-judge how this process will go, and my primary concern is that those participating are heard and understood and that mistakes of the past are learned from.

    In my personal opinion, I felt the timing of the original articles was unhelpful, but on reflection I suspect this timing may be beneficial to both the process and the outcome, as it has helped address some uncertainties.Only time will tell.

    I know this is not a religious site, but I ask that anyone with a faith or even those of you without hold the group in your thoughts and prayers.

    • Murray Pearson

      I sincerely wish you the best, Aimee. Thank you.

  • Peter Wright (Tawil)

    Not wanting to stir up a hornet’s nest here, but wondering if it is not a good time for MRA-London to rebrand as MHRA-London? Human rights for men has become a defining feature of activism.

    Many companies do this after upheavals to signal regrouping and moving ahead.

    [PS. I know zilch about the internal problems taking place in the MRAL, so the above suggestion is not tied in any way to internal knowledge of events].

    • Murray Pearson

      I had noticed that. This is why I suggest

      The London MHRA Underground

      as a new group’s name. Hopefully that will be legally permissible.

      • Iron John

        That’s great idea! I like the sound of that. Thanks for sharing.

    • http://mrshadowfax42.wordpress.com MrShadowfax42

      How about MHRA-UK?
      I’ve always found the London monicker to be overly limiting.

      • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

        That is also a good branding and business suggestion … and domains are free as well. let the Business Savvy Act.

    • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

      From a Legal, Brand Identity and legal Position MHRALondon is a good option and allows great flexibility for future development. Suitable domains are also free and waiting to be snapped up! (So lets see who has the business savvy to react to that little gem). P^)

      The idea of The London MHRA Underground is a none starter. It smacks of Citizen Smith alla 1974 and The “Tooting Popular Front”.

      I would ask just one question about Underground. Is there any intention to deal with Rights above ground? Aint Doing ground hog day?

      • Murray Pearson

        The name is metaphorical, you twat.

        • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

          So does that make The Human Rights Metaphorical?

          That is not me being a “Twat”, It’s actually a most serious question. You seem to have issues with my 3 decades of experience in dealing with Advocacy – Activism – Business – Charity.

          I get the impression that you have a romanticised view of activism and not a 21st century view.

          As for you recommending elsewhere I get Big Girls Pants …. how did you know I’m a Transvestite and my underwear preferences?

          • Murray Pearson

            I know all sorts of things about people. I’m intuitive that way.

            The Underground, if you must ask, is a dual reference to the London subway, and to the Underground Railroad in the United States in the 1860s. Various people, most of them Quakers, would place candles in their windows at night as a signal to fleeing slaves for a safe refuge.

            The Underground Railroad was not literally underground, nor was it a literal railroad.

            Philistine.

          • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

            So Now I’m also Philistine? Wow … I do collect the accolades at speed! Thank You So Very Much!

            I wonder how that reference to The Underground Railroad would play in Brixton? Any idea?

            Maybe it’s just me knowledge about Equality and London that you missed?

            It’s not clever to assume that others are not up to speed with semiotics and don’t grasp the allusions you have. If you want to be brave and attempt to appropriate a racially sensitive ideal and idea…. be my guest!

            It’s all yours and the domains are free to be grabbed to make branding and web presence a doodle!

            … but you seem happier to argue and used references to pants and Kingdoms named in the bible! I’m looking for progress but you just don’t seem to be able to offer that. If you were ever a fan of Blockbusters “Can I Have A “P” Please Bob!”. P^)

        • Shortcircuit

          I do not know what you hoped to accomplish with a response like that, and assume you lost control. If you cannot get control over yourself, silence is the better option. The world will not end from the lack of your input.

          Throughout the comments to this article you have continuously put your foot in your mouth. You have damaged the reputation of yourself and anyone else who has a problem with Andy.

        • Ben James

          as a longoner, its still a stupid name. IF youre going to change names, for gods sake use a name with a bit of dignity and gravitas. I dont want to be embarassed by every mention of your name.

    • Harrywoodape

      It’s unwieldy, but I like Human Rights 2.0 (now including men!).

  • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

    I’ve had several conversatons with Andy over the last week.

    He is in no particular emotional distress save perhaps exasperation.

    He is, contrary to rumours, sober as a judge (and as a recovering alcoholic with an Olympic Medalist career in boozehounding, I am near-impossible to fool in that regard), and not particularly depressed.

    Charges of megalomania strike me as silly since what you’re talking here is his “siezing control” of a web site he built himself, and a name.

    There was a leadership dispute that couldn’t be resolved. I made my suggestions to all parties, and I am more intimately acquainted with all the main players here than almost anybody outside of MRA London, and that includes a few of you who’ve been IN London but only attended a meeting or two here and there (and I’m a bit peeved that at least one person blasted me even after acknowledging themselves to be only barely on the periphery of the group at all, wheras I’ve spent literally hours talking to various MRA London people over the last 6 months).

    I find these things unpleasant. I find this painful. It is not a situation under my control. I will do my best to support Andy, who’s done sterling work, and if other Londoners want to form a new group, or whatever else they want to do, I’ll do my best to support them as best I can.

    I really don’t have much more to say except I don’t appreciate some of the personal recriminations I’ve gotten hurled at me from a few people, in private as well as in public, as if my failure to denounce anybody indicates some personal failing on my part.

    Unpleasantness of this nature happens, I’ve seen it before, and frankly so far as I’m concerned, it’s a test of your own mettle as an activist: can you take some heat and can you make plans when you suffer a setback, or can’t you? You get knocked down? Get up again and straighten your spine and finish the goddamned race.

    I don’t know about anybody else, but I always think first and foremost about the long game, not for who holds control of one particular patch of turf at any particular moment in time. I’m thinking about what things will look like 5, 10, 20 years down the road. (And I mean that, I already know I’ll be in this that long most likely.)

    Just work it out and/or form a new group guys. Please.

    That should be all I have to say.

    • JinnBottle

      Dean – this, and several of the Comments following (at this writing) seem to be among the most sensible things said re this matter of which most of us across the pond are, apparently, almost totally ignorant, certainly including me.

      What I would most like to see is a timeline on this whole matter, rendered by a 3d party, with the objectiveness that’s being strived for in the new wiki; to wit: “This happened, then this happened, then on April 32nd, X said x, and at the same meeting Y said y; a few minutes afterward Q and Z walked out of the meeting still in progress…” – just the facts, sir.

      If this kind of publicizing is, for reasons good or bad, never going to happen, then I concur fully with the suggested scenario of two separate entities, “MRA London” and “MHRA Underground”. I say this because if Andy is in fact “the originator and namer” of MRA London, then the last word lies with him, as far as I’m concerned: just as the last word on AVFM lies with Paul, as he demonstrates on this very Post. Take it or leave it (tho, hopefully in the latter case, you’ll form an org(anization) that will further men’s (human) rights as well as refrain from continuing infighting with the org that you no longer belong to).

      • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

        • Murray Pearson

          This afternoon, I listened to They Might Be Giants’ cover of that song done at The Onion AV Club. Good choice! You have impeccable taste in tuneage, Dean. I am thumping my tub.

      • http://www.facebook.com/limeywestlake Neil Westlake

        Andy was not the originator and ‘namer’ of MRA London. The name was the idea of one individual, while another individual registered the domain name.

        • http://AVFM Roderick Roderick

          No one will listen Neil. All of this was decided months ago. Andy just needed to get the domain name off of us, and the rest is history. There is a growing group of MRAs who have been run over by Paul. I can see Feminists will not be the only enemies of AVFM. I never thought I would write this in my whole life.
          It is interesting to me the statements made about the group I formed as mediator on the 9th of August 2012. Me, Tom Martin, Richi and Richard. I had tried to start a group unsucessfully two years before that inspired by JTO. If

          • http://AVFM Roderick Roderick

            Sorry, continuing my Ipad has a bad connection where I work.

            The mediation on Saturday was ment to resolve things. The coup I was accused of I expect is a technique from the book Rules for Radicals. Mralondon was owned by the core members I think Andy was our newest. Andy built on the website created by Richard for us. He basically made us on the site as it became. Paul, Erin and Andy had other plans. I would have been delighted to go with, I was already working almost solely for Andy in the group. It wasn’t enough for him. I am less of an activist than a networked and organizer for people. I do my best to get everybody motivated and working together on projects. People tell me what they need and I get a result. Dean Esmay is close to Erin Pizzey. He seems to know far more about the group than the group does. Two days ago I just laughed all day, yesterday I was angry. If Andy had nothing to hide he would join Aimee’s mediation and tell the people in London what he wants. None of the groups thoughts matter to Erin, Paul or Andy. I have been run over by big players along with my friends. It sucks, and I don’t support people who operate like this. I may stink like shit to all you people, but it was you wiped your are on us. Without me there would have never been a group, for the MRAs to build.
            Rod.

          • strix

            @Roderick,

            So, you’re saying that Andy was a recent addition to the MRA London team, and that the core team was already well established by the time he came along, yet Andy’s youtube account (AndyThomasMRALondon), which includes the MRALondon name, was opened 14 Jun 2012 (a month before yours, 13 Jul 2012), which was about three weeks before you announced what was presumably (to become) MRA London on July 5th.

            The domain mralondon.org wasn’t registered until 19 October 2012. Oddly, the twitter account appears to have been registered only last week (presumably also by Andy).

            You did mention, both above and in your press release, that you’d tried to organise an MRA group back in 2010, but it got nowhere for lack of interest.

            If all that’s true, then it sounds as though MRA London was indeed your idea, but it didn’t really exist in any meaningful way until Andy got on board. If Andy is responsible for making mralondon.org happen and establishing the link with AVfM, amongst other things, then it would seem that he has a reasonable claim on the MRA London identity and on-line presence because he has done a lot of the work to bring them about.

            I’m a complete outsider to MRA London, but I am based in the UK and no doubt in time I would have become involved with MRA London (in one capacity or another).

            All I’ve heard is what’s been published on the AVfM website, so I only have one side of the story (and a very incomplete version, at that). I asked Elly to elaborate, but she didn’t want to. (Fair enough, that’s her call.) I’d like to understand your side of the story, privately if you prefer, because I want to give you guys the credit you’re due. Especially if the foregoing is not accurate.

  • Shrek6

    Thanks Paul for putting up this thread for us to be informed and to give our Brothers in the UK an extra forum to air their views.

    I know absolutely nothing about the issues within the MRM in the UK, but I have a warning for you all.

    You people need to get serious, VERY serious about what you are actually going to do when you make a decision at the meeting. If you do decide on an organised representative group, it’s constitution must be written in stone.

    Take heed of what has occurred here in Australia. We had an implosion on a massive scale. Sure we had far less members due to a much lower population size, but at a time when their were approximately 4 or 5 very active men’s rights groups/orgs, both physical and on the internet, many men had somewhere to go.

    The fact that ALL of these organisations were mostly (not completely) run by ‘blue pill’ men, who totally refused to meet the needs of those who suffered, because they simply could not get past the ‘traditional model of chivalry,’ this lead to a wholesale exodus from all of these organisations by all the men leaving them and the whole network and support system disappeared virtually over night.

    The only thing we have that is of ANY WORTH here in Australia now, is a US based organisation called AVfM. I myself am very grateful for this, but at the same time it is truly sad, because those who still think they control the skeletal MRM in Aus, are personalities who believe they hold the knowledge and the power and everyone else must bow down to them.
    They have few to none members, because pretty much all the red pill men are here.

    So, whatever you people decide to do, if you value having organised support on your own soil, then be serious about it, meet with charitable hearts and adopt a stance of conciliation.

    Remember, you are all brothers who have been harmed by the same Devil.
    Fight together, not against each other!

    You are in my thoughts and prayers!

    • JinnBottle

      Wow, scary stuff, Shrek. Thanx for the update. Whatever happened with the Men’s Sheds in Oz? Are you including them in the imploded “places for men to go”? I’ve been…I dunno what the word is, skeptical, I guess, from what little I know about the Men’s Sheds, insofar as they are (partially?) state supported, and thus would have run the constant risk of adopting the state’s official, bluepill paradigm, tone, and participants – or shipping out.

      • Shrek6

        JB the Men’s Shed organisation in Australia is actually growing quite rapidly. But sadly, it is not solely “Men’s Shed” or “Men’s Business” in many areas and states.

        The problem is, to get funding to start these sheds up, as I am now finding out with the Shed I belong to, you have meet certain requirements. And one of those requirements is that to secure funding from the govt or NGOs, you have to show in your strategic plan how you will use the Shed’s facilities and how this will benefit the ‘Community at large,’ which is PC speak for how will it benefit women.

        There are a large number of the Men’s Sheds that are ‘Community Sheds.’ They are not for men only. No matter where you go and what sheds you belong to, there are men who find there way to the administrative committees, who are full-on blue pill men or even feminist sympathisers and they dictate the terms, as they build their ivory towers.

        In the Shed I am in, although I am also on the committee, we have one member on the committee who is a pro-feminist blue piller and his plan is to have women included and any time I open my mouth to say anything regarding the needs of men, it is met with verbally violent hostility. Indeed, I would hate to think what might happen if I upset him.

        We also have a retired highly decorated police sergeant on the committee as well.
        This cop is an enemy of all men who suffer false allegations. I found that out once by making known that I have worked in support networks for over 10 years, for men who have suffered false allegations of DV and who have been stitched up by the use of restraining orders by lying women.
        This cop’s response was to say, “All these wankers complain and cry like babies once they get caught out. They’re all as guilty as each other and deserve what they get.”
        And he said the above very angrily and forcefully.

        So, although I enjoy the company of many of the general members, I am not sure how much longer I can keep my position on the committee, because I am there to meet with other men, not to have to fight these idiots who have been the cause of why feminism has gained such a choker hold on our country.

        Things are not that good at all, I’m afraid!

        • http://gravatar.com/shmiggen Shmiggen Mghow

          Shrek, what about NCFM Australia? Perhaps there is potential there?

          http://australia.ncfm.org/

          Contact: Greg Anderson, Liaison

          Sydney@ncfm.org

          They’re not radical, but they certainly are not tradcon or bluepill.

          • Shrek6

            Shmiggen, you have picked out a man who is a seasoned ‘red pill’ supporter of men. This guy, and I am not sure of my facts here, but I THINK he was a driving force behind the ‘one in three campaign': http://www.oneinthree.com.au/, which successfrully slapped the seething bitch brigade across the face a few years ago. It didn’t help us much on the ground, but it added to the conversation and is worth its weight in gold.

            Greg Andresen has long been fighting for men’s health, for male victims of DV, for male victims of false allegations etc, etc.

            We do have many good people here in Aus who are worthy red pill people, even professional women too, but the problem is we had a scattering of groups in the MRM, which could not unite, because the Over Lords had too much power and authority and refused to get on the ground and get their hands dirty, plus they would not unite under one banner.

            And because they all in unison refused to deal with and respect the hurt and legitimate anger of men who have been almost annihilated by some vicious bitch who has used the system to do her dirty work, the overwhelming majority of men left the movement in droves. Included in the reasons why they left, is the miserable fact that these blue pill overlords allowed women of the wrong character to infiltrate into the groups, then abused the men if they cussed or dared to say the word, “Bitch!”
            There were some really good red pill women in the groups, but even they demanded that the men tone down their expression of the hurt they had suffered in the posts they were writing.
            How dare they!

            I would dearly love to see an Aussie national organisation set up to assist with our own domestic problems, but for now that is not possible, because these blue pill overlords are still in the system and will only retake their previous positions.

            We need to get AVfM more established and a stronger worldwide MHRM going, which we can then bring into Australia and we will have stronger men who can then shoulder these dropkicks out of the way as we establish a true men’s and boys human rights movement.

            Until then, we remain scattered to the four winds!

        • Tamerlame

          I really hate the police! Bullying scumbags of the lowest order.

          • Shrek6

            Tamerlame, I use to wonder why the divorced cops never found their way into the MRM. After I ended up being treated like a criminal by these govt funded thugs, I then realised that maybe they felt they couldn’t come crawling to us ‘cap in hand,’ after they had treated husbands and fathers so badly.

            I have found myself actually having to educate my children about the criminal and corrupt behaviour of the majority of police. I have had to tell them to never trust them EVER. This is very bad!

    • http://AVFM Roderick Roderick

      Strix, I have no idea if you are Andy, he comments with different names. Archi owned the domain name last it was for two years. Richard may have had something to do with it. My date for our first meeting is from my old diary.
      Both Andy and Erin said something about support from the group her as Patron and Andy as CEO. No one of us knew about it.
      Andy and I first met Erin at her house together. I love her work but am shocked at recent events and her! As I wrote last night Andy lives hundreds of miles out of London. He did rent a room after living with Archi. They were not getting on I put a huge amount of time into supporting them both.
      I never said Andy is drinking now. I brought it up because he was discrediting me due to partner and I having difficulties. Both Erin and Andy felt I needed to leave my partner of 15 years. Erin also agreed with Andy that a recording that was made of one of our men about the violence he suffered at his partners hands was not entirely true. Andy had written this man off and blocked him, from participating on the website it was his job to do what he was doing.
      The book Rules for Radicles may be Andys way of operating. Andy put us all into a state of emergency after radfem. All our names were taken off the site, he gave a credible security reason to why Archis name should not hold the domain name. He also wanted Richard out of the way as spokes person for the group after the radio show, one at a time it seemed reasonable I totally trusted Andy but was unsure about the domain name. He said someone technical had to have it. Once he got the domain name, game over. Andy is very highly skilled professional man with small companies. I have aspergers and work part time maintaining a huge garden in the countryside. You may laugh at me, but I made an address for mras to come to in London. I work well keeping together a group of men respectfully it worked! But needed to keep changing, I try to adapt to peoples needs. Andy has no understanding of the work I did in supporting him when he joined. He can be abusive and rude to people but his work speaks for itself. Our group met twice a fortnight to fit in with my work so I could do this. People met up when they wanted too. But I chased up everybody for the red pill and surgery meetings. It all could have been changed by anybody. The website was mainly Andys work but we all had access to it. Now we don’t even have our name which was our groups, before Andy. People can say this is all unprofessional, but it was there for MRAs in London. Would you rather have had nothing? And if your so good in the real world why don’t you get off your arse and stop criticizing me. Armchair quarterbacks. By the way I am dyslexic as well, and reasonably enough that did drive Andy crazy. So If I can create a offline community into existence why can’t you! This has been ruthless, cruel and sarcastic and so so dishonest. I knew my limitations and constantly adapted as best as I could. And I did mediate successfully. And all people can do is listen to Andy’s version of mralondons history. It sucks and I expected better from Erin and AVFM because they all knew how we ran at that point. And they know me by ,Skype & email. There was a better way to make the change we needed without stealing the group ID without our knowlege and leaving us fucked and jerks laughing. Rod.

      • http://AVFM Roderick Roderick

        I forgot, I sent MRAlondon news letters out. Explaining who was doing what and who was working together, dates for meet up reminders and activism ideas for discussion. We had a lot of connections in the Uk with special MRM’s and Mras. I had twelve red pill MRAs on my mailing list and loads of other activists not in our inner circle, but part of us in some form. Rod.

      • strix

        @roderick,

        No, I’m not Andy. I’m the principal wiki admin. Maybe you detect a difference in my writing.

        In respect of Andy’s commentary, I’ve only seen what’s been posted to AVfM so I don’t know anything about who’s drinking how much or partner difficulties (though I’m sorry to hear it whoever’s having trouble).

        Wrt the domain, the record was updated May 12th. That might have been the domain transfer, although I think that date also gets changed when fees are paid (amongst other things). But Archi couldn’t have held it for two years, because the domain has only been extant for nine months.

        Asperger’s is neither a laughing matter nor particularly relevant. What is unprofessional is not having an internal structure in place that mediates who has decision-making authority, what their responsibilities are and how they are appointed.

        I’m not criticising you or anybody other person — I just don’t have enough information to do that — however there are plenty of actions that warrant criticism. As far as getting shit done, my work on the wiki and elsewhere is my activism. It might not be pounding the street, but the internet is no less part of or relevant to the real world, for all that it is “virtual”. Believe me, doing a good job takes enough time on its own.

        People are listening to Andy’s version of events, to the extent that he actually has given any, because so far only Andy has been willing to offer an explanation. That’s why I and others invited you to give yours. Your post is a beginning, but it hasn’t said much more than that you feel aggrieved. You haven’t, so far as I’ve seen, directly addressed Andy’s claims about this alleged coup or why you (as I understand you, that it was you) launched it in the first place.

        One of the tragic things about this whole episode that all of you, without exception, have done some very good work for the MHRM and for men and boys in Britain. That much is clear. Nobody’s contributions should be dismissed or left unacknowledged.

        But this is not a question of who’s most valuable, or whose contributions are worth the most. As far as I can see, it is a dispute about control and direction. What’s done is done and, as Paul said, there is more than enough blame to go around. All that anyone can do now is figure how best to pick up the pieces. I also agree with Paul when he says that the primary beneficiaries should be men and boys, and the MHRM at large.

        You — including Andy — can choose to put your feelings ahead of the mission, but doing so, at best, will not advance the cause of men and boys and, at worst, will harm it.

        Where do your priorities lie?

  • August Løvenskiolds

    I hope both groups (MRA London, and Underground) survive and flourish. There is strength in diversity and both group can grow into powerful assets for the MHRM.

    Feminists are useless in part because they are fragmented to the point of irrelevance, but London is big enough to hold two vibrant, independent MHRM groups. I hope the two groups can set aside their differences enough to occasionally pool their activist resources.

    Better days are coming, brothers. Don’t forget that.

    • Peter Wright (Tawil)

      “London is big enough to hold two vibrant, independent MHRM groups.”

      Well said…. no one owns copyright on men’s human rights, and there is room for two (or two thousand) groups to form and work toward that end.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/DannyboyCdnMRA Dan Perrins

    I know very little of what all is going on across the pond.
    That being said there is plenty of feminist misandric pie to go around. The U.K. is a very large country. Already noted by August ;)
    I wish peace and prosperity to the original group if the rift can be mended or to both groups if there needs to be a division.
    We do a tough gig this men’s human rights activism, it wears constantly on your nerves imho.
    Long hours and little sleep make for cranky dispositions.
    I do however disagree with you slightly Paul, I don’t like to hang dirty laundry out. I prefer if at all possible handle things internally.
    That being said there can be no rules set in stone when forging into virgin territory.
    This event can only temper our mettle and add to our ranks but in no way is it going to diminish our steam.
    Remember, we should keep our eyes on the prize which is to stop the misandric treatment of men and boys.
    Cheers to all concerned from across the pond,
    Dan.

    • Murray Pearson

      Hear, hear, Dannyboy.

  • tigerman777

    I hope all who go to the Saturday meeting mediated by Amy do so really prepared to LISTEN at least as much to talk. I say this from my own recent experience where I let pettiness and arrogance dominate my behaviour and as a result ended up hurting someone who deserved much better from me.

  • Turbo

    Phhhhht !! Irrelevant is irrelevant.

    Every successful animal has to deal with the odd leech now and then.

    • Turbo

      Just to make this comment clear, it is a reply to Suzanne McCarley’s comment about boobzie above. Somehow it ended up down here.

  • https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Voice-for-Men/102001393188684 Paul Elam

    I am going to take this opportunity to do a teaser on an article I am working on about leadership and organization in the MHRM. It should run in the next few days.

    I have a lot to say on the subject, but one thing I will focusing on quite a bit is that without hierarchy men are sunk. We can try to break free of that all we want, and I think the ambition to do so in many ways is healthy in a zeta kind of way, but where it comes to getting anything the fuck done, those that don’t have a place where the buck stops every time are toast.

    It holds true whether you are trying to tackle something as obscure as misandry, or building pyramids. You definitely need teams and cooperation, but if your team has no captain it will fall apart.

    The trick, especially in an environment like this, is to have a captain that knows the limits on what he can expect people to do, and seeks to motivate others toward cooperation.

    That is enough for now, I will address it all later. I just wanted to say that where it concerns men (and wherever you want to get more done than your average gender studies class) that “rule by committee” is actually “fool by committee.”

    It will never work. In a thousand years it will never work..

    • Peter Wright (Tawil)

      I did my trade as a blacksmith under ex-military brass, and the system of leading-hands, shop stewards, foremen, and various levels of managers worked absolutely brilliantly. The workshop operation was like watching the internal wheels of the Big Ben clock, all working in synchrony. I now work in a chaotic all-female workplace where the women make decisions via committee only, and the women each meddle in each other’s designated work area causing arguments all day long. Its an absolute screaming mess and the efficiency is zero.

      Looking forward to the article

    • Murray Pearson

      Agreed. Command structure is imperative. Looking forward to it!

    • aimeemcgee

      Paul, I will be most interested to read your article.
      This is probably one of the areas I beg to differ, being part of a religious tradition that has managed to create a form of “committee based” decision making that has held up for the last 350 odd years.

      However, and this is a big caveat: If you do consensus based decision making you need to have rigourous record keeping and those records need to be agreed before anyone leaves from a decision making meeting, and the records need to make clear delegation of responsibility to an individual, up to and including how much money can be spent doing what.

      This does not preclude “leaders” within the Religous Society of Friends – there are some who are given gifts to do so, however it does limit the power of the leadership because all decisions are thoroughly tested.

      The Gay Marriage Act has moved one step closer to being made law in the UK overnight. Quakers started their process as national movement over 10 years ago to address this as a matter of both human rights and religious freedom. We achieved unity in our support of this legislation through a “committee based” decision in 2006 and have been putting considerable political lobbying behind it at both national and local levels since. Not every Quaker in Britian necessarily believes that Gay Marriage is “right”, but the stance of the Religous Society of Friends as a whole was a unity based decision to say that we supported it.

      Committee based decision making such as this requires participation and engagement – the thing that can be difficult as activists. My own personal version of hell is having to sit through a 1/2 day meeting to decide how we will move various important issues fowards, yet I put myself through that at least 4 times a year because I believe in the process and the greater strength of outcomes derived this way.

      It is my opinion that there are a number of ways to skin the kitten (then make kitten pie) of running groups and it is not a matter of gender determining the best form of process. I believe there will be differences because of culture including secondary aculturation experiences such as military service that will push people in the direction of favouring one or the other.

      I said in a comment before, I have experience of brilliant examples of both – and the group in London must decide their own path.

      • http://www.genderratic.com typhonblue

        Committee governance may work with Quakers, however as a group you have the benefit of longstanding tradition and a shared ethos.

        MRAs have the benefit of nothing. Maybe passion from having been damaged.

        • aimeemcgee

          Shared ethos? Not always. I could give you a long history of division and dissent, yet the business process is still maintained by all branches worldwide.
          Tradition? It started somewhere. It is interesting over 75% of our membership are convinced as adults, so they come without experience if this method

          My point is that there are other models of organisational functioning and all need to be considered, evaluated and decided on.

  • oldfart

    Perhaps it is worth considering doing a bit of what the fat one accuses you of doing.
    It is what he fears most,because that is your core strength.

    While piling any demographic into the tent may have temporary gain in the from of media attention,it also appears to cause an unraveling at the seams.

    White heterosexual men?

    There’s nothing wrong with that.

    Never deny who you are,never be ashamed of who you are.

    Stand proud,hold your ground.

    There will never be ‘cis gendered’ pride marches, but there damn well ought to be!

    That %2 extra is the anchor to the bottom,the fools drag you down to their level and win.

    It was the %98 that propelled you to this spot,and it will be the %98 that keeps you, if you acknowledge that engine.

    Or toss sand into the crankcase,it’s your baby.

  • animatefire

    Nooby here–but as long as people don’t start up with that “solidarity,” crap I think all is well. In fighting is a healthy sign that dissidence and self-interest are still alive and well within the MRM. I think that’s a good thing.

  • http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showthread.php?tid=451 dhanu

    I have a feeling that the word “Underground” might be a bit hard to fit well with the common public perception, because of its somewhat negative connotation (underground operations are, for example, hidden operations being carried out secretly; the reason for secrecy generally being their negative nature).

    Edit: This comment was supposed to be in reply to one of Murray Pearson’s comments but it appeared separately :)

    • Murray Pearson

      That’s a risk with any handle, I don’t think MRA London was any more contentious. If someone objects, mention The Underground Railroad — which, even if some people are too deliberately obtuse to get, is a powerful symbol of social justice — and it should become clear. Just mho.

      • Peter Wright (Tawil)

        While i think there are better words, I can see why you might be attracted to the word underground. The definition I just read is, ‘Of or relating to an avant-garde movement or its films, publications, and art, usually privately produced and of special appeal and often concerned with social or artistic experiment.”

        It appears synonymous with the word subversive, which is what most of us are trying to be toward feminist culture.

        However it also appears associated with other movements which engage in crime and illegal activity which is an association you probably don’t want.

      • aimeemcgee

        In addition, London is linked by an Underground…

        Just saying!

      • http://twitter.com/napocapo69 napocapo69 (@napocapo69)

        Just a tip for the name: “Second Class”…

  • Jay

    I just wanted to voice my support for all ex and current men and women of MRA London. Anyone who stands up for gender equality and against laws which discriminate against men and boys has my support. I would encourage all the former members of MRA London to consider forming another group, and hopefully one day soon reconcile and work together with MRA London, and add weight to helping boys and men and their happiness in England.

    In 2015 it appears almost certain that British Labour and Harriet Harman will return to power after just one term in the wilderness. This is a party which due to the likes of HH, Margaret Moran, Yvette Cooper, Fiona McTaggart, Vera Baird and Caroline Flint (to name some of their misandrists) is akin to a radical feminist political party. They will try to implement all sorts of nasty laws to criminalise men who don’t conform to the white knight/mangina stereotype.

    The point is, England needs ALL the help she can get. So please, all of you, keep on working to spread the message of truth about gender equality. Godspeed.

  • onca747

    I got a flyer in my letterbox about a men’s shed opening up in my area.. I gotta admit I was a bit skeptical, thinking maybe it was a front for blue-pill feminist-happy agenda in the guise of “helping men”. I also saw a flyer at my local mall about something called “Manshine”, which frankly scared the bejeezes out of me.

  • Stu

    I have very little knowledge of what events and arguments have taken place at MRA London, but in response to the sentiment that one would hope a lessen is learned from past mistakes, I am pessimistic.

    I have watched, and been involved in men’s rights groups for quite a few years, on and off since the interne existed. In fact, even longer, before the internet existed I was involved in men’s rights dial up bulletin boards way back with my Commodore 64 and 1200/75 modem. And I’ve watched many groups waste most of their time arguing and infighting, with personal falling out of ridiculous shit like what football team one follows. They achieve nothing, and mostly fade away. And from what I can see, the main reason for this is because everybody wants to decide what is what, and won’t tow someone elses line.

    Even when the group is in agreement on the main things, side issues seem to tear it apart. Petty bickering and single issues of disagreement create endless arguments. What all of these groups seem to lack, is a person that can step in and say, thank you for all your input and opinions ladies and gentlemen, but this is what I have decided…..this is what will be done…..and this is what will not be done. This is what is needed, and that person has to have the authority to override objections and get on with it. Just like you do in your home. Your visitors may make suggestions about how you decorate you house, arrange your furniture, but at the end of the day, you make the decision. If your visitors throw a tantrum, stamp there feet, and call you names because you wont do things their way, you can tell them to go decorate their own home whatever way they like.

    For this to work, people have to accept the authority of the leader. They have to say…….ok……I think this person is not doing things the way I would like in this instance, but I am going to stand shoulder to shoulder with them, and support them anyway.

    This is what is needed, and it is what we have here, and it is the single biggest thing that has made the difference between avfm and most other men’s rights groups.

    The house may not be decorated to your perfect preferences, but without this model, you don’t have a house.

    So I would say, as for lesson learned, probably not. But lets hope we here at avfm continue doing it right.

  • Near Earth Object

    I read this thread from top to bottom and was in high spirits to learn that no one was killed.

    That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Carry on M(H)RA

  • Raz

    I’ll tell you all something right now. & I’m sure most of you agree.

    This shit fucking pisses me right the fuck off.

    There is nothing I can’t stand more, then intelligent people of common values & purpose, letting trivial garbage like this get the better of them. This is grade school caliber BULLSHIT, people, & we are way above it! If we hope to achieve anything, it is mandatory that we solve this shit, & quick.
    How? Well, I’m not claiming to have all the solutions, but allow me to offer one up…

    We don’t have a “leader” in Mens Rights Edmonton. We’re all just a bunch of MRAs contributing what we can, when we can, where we can. Usually in line with whatever talents or resources we can make available from our personal lives/careers.
    GirlWritesWhat (as I’m sure you’re aware) is a tremendously smart and talented public speaker and debater. She is also world renowned thanks to her youtube celebrity status. So she serves as our public relations person.
    Duckman is a very committed, high energy, go-getter. He is also very intelligent & a great public speaker. So we slap a sandwich board on him & let him loose in public to draw attention to our website & the movement in general.
    We have members who are pretty much designated for poster runs.
    Other members focus on other avenues of activism which are more political/legal in nature.
    My point is, we work TOGETHER towards a common goal. We don’t waste time arguing over who is in charge or let petty squabbling or drama splinter our cohesion. WE’LL LET THE WRETCHED FUCKING ENEMY DO THAT! We’re all equal contributors to a greater cause. Cogs in a machine. & each member is an invaluable piece which allows the machine to function more efficiently & effectively. No, we’re not perfect, but we’re on our way.

    …I thought we’d have dozens of real world activist groups like MR-E, VancouverMRA, & Mens Rights Montreal all over the world by now. I was even hoping we would be able to get a bit of friendly competition going between us to constantly raise the bar for activism. I’m looking around, & not only is this not the case, the few groups which do exist seem to be crumbling. & if that doesn’t take the cake, it’s all because of the same old stupid fuuuuuuucking crap that’s been stinking up the joint since day one. When are we going to finally say, enough is enough & move as one to work the fucking problem?! How about NOW!?

    If our example can help other groups form or solidify, then fuck it-HERE, TRY THIS!

    SON OF A BITCH!

    • Kimski

      Upvoted.
      And thanks for saying what I was thinking, far more nicely than I would have done it.

  • Diana Davison

    That was a great display of mastery in diplomacy, Mr Elam. I saw the other articles on this subject but had no opinion. Why should I? They are pissed off at each other and some toes got stomped on but, ultimately, all people involved are still devoted to the same cause. The rest is petty detail. Maybe someone is a right prick. Maybe someone else is a raging necrophiliac with a fetish for cold dead toes. Does it really matter? Kind of, but that’s something for them to sort through on their own. What I want to know is not what they think of each other but what they have to say about the issues at hand.

    If you want to be a mover and shaker of the changing world talk about each other less and spend more time crafting your messages to the world at large. Ultimately, the better you get at fighting for the cause, the better off everyone is. No one loses. We all win. For those that feel they are getting ripped off, fire up your video cameras, write your articles, worry less about saying how important your voice is and focus more on proving it. We only lose when egos prevail over logic.

  • oldfart

    “but as long as people don’t start up with that “solidarity,” crap I think all is well.”

    Say what?

    That is the most ignorant thing I have read in a very long time.

    I also want to mention this thread is not in the main index any longer, I only found it by reviewing the recent comments and linking from there.

    The entire issue is shoring up solidarity!

    Why would a movement avoid discussing a foundational matter?

    That would be willful self implosion by omission.

    I am honestly trying to help you folks pull together.

    United we stand divided we fall.

    This concept is self-evident and seminal to the future progress.

    • animatefire

      Solidarity is a physio-visual metaphor for comformity and censorship that requires a panopticism whose all penetrating gaze is justified by the moral imperitive of the cause. A plurality of voices should be welcomed, conversation and dialogue should be welcomed–no? The second this movement starts asking people to enforce codes, to identify in a specific way, to think a specific thought, and to not think other specific thoughts–in other words, to be “solid,” all voices speaking as one, “groupthink,” “hivemind,” etc etc, then I think some of the main criticisms of the feminist movement would be turned against the MRM, and the end of a movement could be ushered. Right now MRM is like Fight Club. It’s imperitive that it not become Project Mayham. The difference, I think, is not only a tolerance of, not only a respect for, but a deep valuing, even a celebration of, contrapuntalism–multiple different voices, playing back and forth with one another. You know–like a dialogue. Solidarity is a monologue. I understand the impetus to quell infighting, but at what cost? I say–let them have it out. Chanting solidarity helps no one. As long as there’s people in need, as long as the MRM remains in the cultural cognizance of these people, there will be activism, regardless of what form it takes. The problem with feminism, is not only that it’s an ideology, but also that it’s institutionalized. Structures are built up ontop of it, and so the cost of losing feminism is too great, as Dr. Elam and many others have pointed out on many occassions–it’s a big business. I guess what I’m saying is, let’s not allow our message sit still for so long that someone can happen along and use it as a foundation to build their career, so that thirty or fifty years, or two hundred years from now, we’ve constructed a monster. That’s…all I’m saying. You guys are generally smarter than I am, so…if I tripped up here, have at.

  • Tom (cough) Martin

    I was banned from MRALondon for “not fitting in” despite coming up with its name – then I was banned from this website for “not fitting in”.

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      No, you were banned for starting arguments in every thread, derailing every conversation with your need to defend feminism every step of the way. You know our position here: feminism is a movement of hatred bigotry and lies and has been from day 1, with useful idiots at the bottom who are providing cover for the haters who control the money and the levers of the power. Until it reforms itself completely, from top to bottom, it is no more welcome here than white supremacists, fascists, or stalinists.

      Now you can either deal with that and accept that we are not going to debate that point with you and you can contribute to discussions in other ways that are productive instead of changing the subject to your pet hobbyhorse, or you can move the fuck on.

      You got warned repeatedly. For some strange reason I’m actually taking a chance and thinking you may actually try to redeem yourself by ceasing your squabbling ways. Or you can go back to playing with Manboobz and the other feminist sites where you have yet to figure out that they hate you and always will, and they don’t hate you because of us, they hate you because YOU ARE A MALE WHO WANTS TO BE TREATED LIKE A HUMAN BEING. If you don’t get that, you’re too dense to be anything but a distraction. This is an activist site, not a debating society.

      • http://avfm Roderick Roderick

        Dean if you want ‘men to be treated like human beings’ would you consider listening to us in the report or article I hope to be produced from all the members of mralondon through Aimee once we have had our mediation.
        Yesterday I rang Erin she says she has no knowledge of wrong doing by Andy. Andy led her to believe I am unstable I’ve had very little credibility to her due to this, which I never knew. Lets see what people who know me think.
        When I explained to Erin the laptop brought for me by Andy, AVFM and one of our group – so I could skype had the password changed too, to cut me off and prevent my from skyping she said she would ask him. Minutes after the phone call the password was changed back an I had internet connection. And was no longer cut off from my AVFM contacts. The passwork was changed thirteen days before.
        I am dyslexic and Andy spent quite a bit of time setting me up in London and Cornwall passwords and all.
        The only time that, – what I have been trying to say is listened, is when I pop my cork and get unpleasant and then you judge me by that only!
        Are you aware of how arrogant Erin and Paul appear to us? telling us our group history?
        I have spoken to Paul on the laptop he got me, and met Erin 4-5? times at her home too.
        I always explain the set up of mralondon, you all know what we were.
        Andy was the main contact because there is no point me Skyping Paul, what the heck would I have to say? I would ask Andy what was happening. Then possibly put in the mralondon newsletter to the group to consider if needed.
        Erin is an accomplished woman she id not a goddess, I have been surprised at her lack of knowledge of the mra movement and men in general. I have been a diehard fan of her for years and even rang her maybe ten years ago to discuss mens rights but at that time she was working on elderly rights I think in a local nursing home where abuse had occurred.
        Andy is a brilliant activist by far the best of mralondon. That is why you support him. But what has been done is horrible and wrong to all of our group. And is a refection on AVFM and how you treats less important men and woman.
        Please do not promote Andy’s version of mralondon, and Tom Martin was part of our founding history, back 3 or 4 years to my first attempt at a London Group for MRAs.
        Three years before Andy knew what a MRA was.
        He was the groups star and biggest producer in an amazing short time, but doesn’t mean you should help him in erasing us in London because of his ruthlessness and evasion.
        If he has nothing to hide have Paul make him attend the mediation and explain himself. Paul is your leader and has that power as you well know Dean.
        Rod.

      • http://avfm Roderick Roderick

        Please put my reply on,Thank you Rod.

      • Bewildered

        ” need to defend feminism every step of the way. ”

        The lengths to which people go to do this is astounding.Among other things, feminism appears to be the mother of all narcotic drugs.
        There’s no way a sane person could defend it in spite of innumerous examples of malevolent repercussions on society resulting from an adherence to the ideology,which is based on such laughable, anti-human egregious lies.
        As of now it looks like nothing short of a total collapse of the system can bring about its demise.

        • Tom (cough) Martin

          Firstly, Dean’s assertion that I “need to defend feminism every step of the way” is a false one, as I address different feminisms differently, depending on their reasonableness.

          You do get that feminism is not one ideology (don’t you?)

    • http://avfm Roderick Roderick

      Hey Tom, Your sill a great mate of mine, but if we had kept you in the group we would still be deciding what name to call ourselves. Ha!
      Not that it matters now I suppose. Rod.

  • http://avfm Roderick Roderick

    Hello, my comment in reply to Dean Esmay has not been published. There is nothing angry in it, comments posted here can be answered by MRAs in a controlled environment.
    Before Andy took mralondon off all the group, I heard a rumor about the altering of peoples material on AVFM which got the individual in hot water with Paul. Censorship is not fun either.
    If you will not let me publish comments here then I will comment elsewhere. When you are betrayed by your friends then you shared enemies don’t start to look so bad after a time.
    Please stop censoring me. Andy Thomas’s conduct is embarrassing to AVFM, meditation will resolve this by meeting half way.
    Again please put my comment up.
    Rod.

    • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

      Take your rumors and shove ‘em up your ass. You’re not doing anyone any favors with this kind of behavior.

      • Roderick Roderick

        Dean you are right, Aimee put me right. It was a rumor that was bullshit. I am sorry for relaying something false.
        There was no one at AVFM changing the content of peoples articles or comments. The person was given permission by the content writer and it was misunderstood by other parties.
        Thank you Aimee for putting me right and sorry to those I offended be relaying what I thought was true.
        Aimee told me at our group mediation today.
        Rod.

    • strix

      @Roderick,

      Evidently, your comment was published, so you’re not being censored. Have a bit of patience: the spam filter is working overtime for some reason, and there is sometimes a delay in the posting of even the most innocuous comment.

      The rest of your comment, especially:

      If you will not let me publish comments here then I will comment elsewhere. When you are betrayed by your friends then you shared enemies don’t start to look so bad after a time.
      Please stop censoring me. Andy Thomas’s conduct is embarrassing to AVFM, meditation will resolve this by meeting half way.

      reads like a child on the verge of throwing a tantrum because he is not getting his own way. Note, I said like a child: I believe you can do better than this, so I’m explicitly not calling you a child.

      The more an individual behaves like a child, the more they demonstrate they’re not ready to lead.

      • http://avfm Roderick Roderick

        Thank you for putting it up, sorry for being impatient I am getting paranoid, I am very upset by this whole business. I didn’t mean it to sound like a four your old wanting his icecream.
        I know you work hard.

        Aimee has said to me to have a rest and stay off the computer, I am sure you will be relieved.
        Mediation is tomorrow I am very disappointed Andy probably wont come.
        Thanks again it gives me some faith, Rod.

  • Tom (cough) Martin

    Okay, okay, due to unpopular demand, here is my honest assessment of what has transpired:

    Rod founded the group, who have a mixture of sometimes opposing perspectives, the most vociferous of them passive-aggressively pining for traditional gender roles, plus a few quieter egalitarians who show up but quickly who flake away – but through Rod’s gentle stewardship, the group gets off the ground.

    I attend the first few meetings, am the one who suggests the name MRALONDON.ORG, argue that gender equality as an outcome is a good thing and that it is dishonest to describe the whole of feminism as a hate movement. Andyman memorably replies “Then what are you doing here?”

    Rod later tells me the group does not want me.

    AVFM takes MRALondon’s lead and bans me after I disagree with Mike Buchanan when he appears to be on a roll.

    Andy’s standpoint, that feminism is bad, period, fits in well with the same constitutionally written article of faith of AVFM’s – and AVFM, starstruck by staunch social conservative Mike Buchanan’s frequent appearances on the BBC et al – go with his flow, lurching to the traditionalist right. (Mike Buchanan writes to me saying the following “You know I don’t agree with your analysis that the world would be a ‘better’ place if we had more gender equality – in the sense of men and women more ‘equally’ sharing roles and responsibilities – indeed I think this utopian fantasy has been responsible for an untold amount of misery, and an increasingly dysfunctional society”)

    MRALondon continues, and judging from Andyman’s meticulous articles, which are egalitarian (if strangely macho), I suspect, he will have found some of the traditionalist conservative members of the group a total dead weight, and decided to dispatch them, in favour of Erin Pizzey – a person who is well known, but at times socially conservative herself – who wears a whopping great cross round her neck, and has expressed some traditionalist views about women’s roles and the wrongness of feminism too.

    Meanwhile, Paul Elam, who I believe, is a liberal progressive at heart, sees that his website’s fanbase, making the comments, appear to be expressing increasingly right wing traditionalist views, and he appears to be going along with it.

    I have had emails and phonecalls from others expressing similar concern. Paul might not get such honest appraisals in his comments section, but that might be because people want to try and get along with the culture he presides over.

    It seems like Paul and co, and Andy, are sticking to a more ruthless playbook, akin to orthodox feminist intolerance, where the dominant discourse should not be altered.

    If your simplistic position is, that feminism is a hate movement, then you should not be complaining when feminists take a similar standpoint, calling men’s rights activism a hate movement too.

    Ironing out a more nuanced position is harder work, which the men’s rights movement needs to do.

    • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

      I would echo Andy’s question – what ARE you doing here? Can you not get it through your head that this is one of the few places in the Western world which flat-out rejects feminist ideology? Are you here because among MHRAs you have name recognition (rather like Futrelle) but among feminists your just another unremarkable male enabler?

      “If your simplistic position is, that feminism is a hate movement, then you should not be complaining when feminists take a similar standpoint, calling men’s rights activism a hate movement too.”

      You missed the part about the undeniable evidence that feminism IS a hate movement. Radical feminism is overtly hateful, and moderate feminism, while more subtle, promotes similar policies that are merely less extreme. Cuz apparently it’s OK to give women SOME more “rights” than men, and it’s OK to demand men to pay SOME extra to compensate for what women can’t (won’t) pay themselves.

      Shame on us for not tolerating the core principles of a discriminatory ideology, even when it’s publicized in polite, “benevolent” (toward women of course) language.

      No wonder you were banned.

      • Tom (cough) Martin

        “Can you not get it through your head that this is one of the few places in the Western world that flat-out rejects feminist ideology?”

        Feminisms do not have one ideology. Some feminisms reject patriarchy theory for instance, as do some people identifying as feminists.

        True, I am an ‘enabler’, enabling women who agree with me to drop the victim-feminist ideology and rhetoric whilst still pursuing greater gender-developmental progress.

        You’re a woman, and my feminist MRA position is that you, as an average woman, don’t have equality of opportunity, you have supremacy of opportunity – so you go girl! (don’t literally go just yet, as I’m still waiting for your personality to arrive).

        As if to prove my central point, you even then go on to describe different types of feminism, preferencing some over the others. Condense it all down into a catchy sentence or two and you might be getting somewhere – but don’t miss out i-feminists for instance, who largely reject the dominant victim-feminist discourse, and campaign on men’s equality issues.

        Speaking of David Futrelle, yes he is fat, but I’ve heard it’s the glands. Lymph-nodes, thyroid, pituitary – name any gland, he’ll eat plates and plates of them.

        • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

          That’s quite a few words you put in my mouth, in order to have something to argue about.

          • Tom (cough) Martin

            I’m not putting anything in your mouth – and I’m still waiting for you to put any decent argument in your comments.

    • http://gravatar.com/shmiggen Shmiggen Mghow

      Wow, Tom. What a fall you have taken. From a magnificent youtube video where you debated feminism in England, to…obscurity.

      Let me dissect your comment so that we may see the incoherence.

      1. You are claiming that avfm is becoming more traditional, more conservative with the influence of mike buchanan and erin pizzey. This site has said repeatedly that whomever supports men and boys are welcome here – no matter their creed. I could care less who supports men and boys, so long as they…support men and boys. If you were to look at Mike’s political party – j4mb – you will see that all of his concerns are pertinent to every male in the world. And Erin’s cross suits her. Come on, Tom. It’s a necklace for fuck sakes. Get over it. Do you want to see a traditionalist website? Here, this is traditionalism:

      http://ozconservative.blogspot.com/2013/05/so-no-real-men-then.html

      Come on,man. Don’t tell me you can’t see the difference between avfm and a traditionalist site. I don’t think you were banned because you were derailing threads. It’s clear that you are a guy who just doesn’t do his homework.

      • Tom (cough) Martin

        I’m glad you liked my video. Subscribe to my youtube channel for the next one, coming soon.

        I agree with 85% of what’s in J4MB’s manifesto, and I have donated £20 to the party – the trouble is, Mike doesn’t really like the sharing of traditional gender roles, which bodes badly, and reflects badly on the whole men’s rights movement given Mike’s current prominence.

        I’m saying that Mike’s traditional conservative focus has swayed AVFM further backwards and to the right.

        I’ve read Mike’s manifesto, watched and listened to all his debates, and observed AVFM for a couple of years, as well as appear on it, so I’d say I’ve done a fair amount of homework.

        If a few AVFMers want to state now that they’re not moving backwards and to the right, then I’ll be pleased to hear it.

        Do you want gender equality or not?

        Feminist women on the street want gender equality way more than women who say “I’m not really a feminist” (code for “am really a whore”).

        Don’t throw all feminists out with the bad feminist bath water.

        • http://gravatar.com/shmiggen Shmiggen Mghow

          what do u mean by the “sharing of traditional gender roles”? lost me there…

          also, could u enlighten me as to mike’s traditional conservative focus? lost me there as well.

          it sounds to me like you are more in alignment with Michael’s Kimmel’s thinking. No problem there, if that is what you wish. But avfm becoming traditional…I just don’t see it. That’s almost laughable. The “thinking housewife” is traditional, and the “ozconservative” is traditional. Avfm traditional? Nah, no way. Bernie Chapin has publicly distanced himself from this site because he feels we are all commies. Seriously. I mean, what gives? Is it a commie site and traditionalist site? Somebody needs to get their facts straight.

  • http://avfm Roderick Roderick

    Hi Tom, Aimee has put a straightjacket on me that the remaining group all chipped in to purchase. Its ment to keep me off the computer. I wont tell you what I’m pressing the keys with because thats on a need to know basis.
    Rod.

  • GQuan

    Tom Martin, feminists *do* have one ideology. It’s called feminism.

    • Tom (cough) Martin

      Clearly, for GQuan, the feminists and feminism I mentioned earlier simply don’t exist. This person has a bright future at AVFM.

      • August Løvenskiolds

        Fine, Tom – name a branch of feminism that rejects patriarchy theory.

        Betcha can’t.

        Radfems believe in it as the sole oppressor of women.
        Socfems believe in it as an additional oppressor of women.
        Etc.

        • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

          Don’t let him skate out. Make sure to include the branches that also reject “Kyriarchy,” which is even more daffy and malevolent, not to mention overtly racist instead of covertly racist like “Patriarchy Theory.”

  • GQuan

    You’re doing it again. Whatever differences they have, and I’m not saying for a moment they don’t exist and aren’t pronounced, they all share one ideology, namely feminism.

    All feminists and “feminisms” are feminist. By definition. Therefore they share an ideology. The fact that diversity exists within the boundaries of that ideology doesn’t change the fact that they all share a core ideal and thus are confined by those boundaries, ideologically speaking.

    If you cannot identify a core set of assumptions that underly the feminist label, then the terms “feminist” or “feminism” are inherently meaningless. To borrow a phrase from someone else, you ask us to “swordfight a fart”. Since the words apparently hold enough meaning that all these groups, in their diversity, share a commitment to identifying with them, then they must have a unifying meaning. All feminists are feminists. Thus they have a single ideology, no matter what flavours and distinctions they place on their brand, sect or even individual take on feminism.

    • Tom (cough) Martin

      No, feminists don’t all share a core ideal, because feminism is not an ideology – but a name for loose collectives or categorizations of types of gender-related activists. Some feminist positions are diametrically opposed to others – just like within the men’s rights movement, where you’ve got people who want more equality of outcome, and others who want less.

      • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

        If you believe in Patriarchy Theory (and I have yet to find an intellectual branch of feminism that doesn’t, except the ones who believe in the even more insane Kyriarchy variation), you’re a feminist and a hatemonger.

        If you don’t believe in Patriarchy Theory, you’re not a feminist, you’re just misinformed and giving cover to the hatemongers. Six of one half a dozen of the other. That is our editorial position, and it isn’t going to change, and you should get used to it and move on.

        You were never a member of MRA London. Why are you here? Did I make a mistake to approve your comment? Say something pertinent that doesn’t involve your obsessive need to defend feminism or get the fuck out. Clear enough? No more warnings.

        • Tom (cough) Martin

          So, Dean, AVFM’s position, according to you, is an unchangeable one. Forget emerging evidence. Dean has already got… a position (and so does his boss). Now what type of feminism does that remind you of? A credible type? A malleable reflexive type? Or a brittle type, prone to fracture?

          “You were never a member of MRA London”?

          I went to the first four meetings, and came up with the name. Are you sticking to another one of your positions Dean? – because the cracks are starting to show.

          I defend good feminism, and reject bad feminism.

          I defend good men’s rights activism too, and reject the lazy rubbish.

          I never banned anyone from my youtube channel or my twitter account (both called sexismbusters) because I can back things up without disappearing those who hold opposing viewpoints.

          You are in an interesting predicament. You acknowledge that calling all feminism hateful is merely ‘a position’ – and yet you maintain some claim to moral/intellectual authority on the topic.

          Goodbye Dean.

          • http://www.genderratic.com typhonblue

            “I defend good feminism, and reject bad feminism.”

            Can you be a feminist without believing in patriarchy theory? Once you remove a belief in patriarchy theory and male privilege, what’s left that’s even feminist?

            Find a group of feminists who don’t believe in patriarchy theory or male privilege.

          • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

            I see no predicament, but I do see an annoying little rodent loitering around the back door and attempting to sneak in unnoticed and shit on the rug.

            Good riddance.

          • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

            You’ve never been banned from my YouTube page or my Twitter account. You have been banned here in the past for the reasons stated, not your opinions but for the behaviors already mentioned.

            Policy position will change when substantial evidence is presented that firmly contradicts 40+ years of research on the matter. You presented no evidence at all. Occam’s Razor being what it is, the most likely explanation would be that it’s because you have none.

            Goodbye (assuming you mean it).

          • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

            Typhon: don’t forget Kyriarchy theory. It’s even more hateful and bigoted and stupid than Patriarchy Theory, but it’s the ideological dodge some of the slightly more intelligent ones use, denying that it’s the same (because it’s overtly racist and not just dehumanizingly sexist).

      • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

        We do not concern ourselves with “equality of outcome.” We are concerned with equality of opportunity. That way everybody, male or female, can attempt to EARN the outcome they want. This concept is clearly incomprehensible to you, as you can’t or won’t address it. I suggest you either figure it out or go away, because THAT is the conversation we are having. Go talk “equality of outcome” with people who are dumb enough to think it’s a worthy (or even feasible) goal.

        • Tom (cough) Martin

          I comprehend that equality of opportunity should be legally protected, and that working towards equality of outcome is beneficial (as do all political parties left of David Cameron in the UK – including Cameron himself). So that’s some Conservatives, most Lib Dems, nearly all of the Labour Party, and the Greens too.

          There are known benefits to gender ratio-balanced workplaces and other spheres – hence the broad support (if not among the MRM).

          If men had equality of outcome, they’d be living longer, healthier, more peaceful, and enjoyable lives – not a ‘dumb’ thing to be working towards.

          • Bewildered

            Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

            Winston Churchill

          • Bewildered

        • Bewildered

          ALA there’s life there will unequal outcomes only in death do you have equality of outcomes.

          • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

            Compost Is A Great Leveller. Ask any gardener!

          • Tom (cough) Martin

            “Only in death do you have equality of outcomes”.

            Depressing and false. There are many women and men who earn the same, achieve the same number of PHds, split the housework evenly, split the bills evenly – but equality of outcome is a good thing to want to work towards – as to achieve equality of outcome, we have to have equally gender ratio environments – which is good for our health, and peace.

        • Bewildered

          Go talk “equality of outcome” with people who are dumb enough to think it’s a worthy (or even feasible) goal.

          It’s an IMPOSSIBLE goal !

          Nature always has the last laugh !

        • strix

          “Equality of outcome” is absurd in the highest order because it robs everybody of their agency.

          If the system is weighted so everybody achieves the same result, why put any effort in? No matter how hard you work, you can’t possibly make a difference to your circumstances because the system will react to your efforts to maintain equilibrium.

          • Tom (cough) Martin

            If an individual strives, they’ll get promoted etc – equality of outcome in real terms means aiming to create the conditions most likely to produce an equal number of women and men striving equally to get ahead – for the benefits of gender ratio balance in all spheres, from top to bottom. It’s complicated, but it’s what all the serious political parties in the UK do (apart from UKIP) – and throughout the EU.

          • Bewildered

            Imagine a basket full of crabs !

    • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

      Gquan – I do have to say – It’s fascinating watching and reading all the Linguistic Gymnastics that are needed to keep the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster of Feminism in the air.

      Personally I agree with Donna Haraway ‘taxonomies’ of feminism … can create artificial dichotomies between feminist discourses that seriously impede constructive political debates about subjectivity for women.”

      It also just adds to the smoke and mirrors used to keep hiding manipulation, abuse and coercion under petticoats.

      I love the idea being pushed that because there is a breadth and diversity of feminism(s) you can’t be critical off them all on mass. I heard the same argument some years ago about Negation Of Disability – some think it’s find to abuse only those with physical Disabilities and others Only abuse the Mentally impaired and yet others just kick both. If that dynamic was gender and feminism so many would run in horror from them Loony Ladies and supporters … but of course people who have become indoctrinated into one mindset and cultural normality Auto Censor and quell all dissonance.

      Some even develop nervous coughs. P^)

  • GQuan

    But the men’s rights movement is a movement, not an ideology. An “ism” is a distinctive practice or theory, or a doctrine. It is inherently unifying. An “ism” is not for “loose collectives”

    • Tom (cough) Martin

      Good semantic points there GQuan – which don’t change the fact that not all feminisms or feminists are hateful.

      • http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blogspot.com Suzanne McCarley

        Aaaand we’re back to NAFALT. Bite me.

        • Tom (cough) Martin

          I will neither put anything in your mouth, or bite you, Suzanne.

          Not all feminists are like that (it’s true), but next time a feminist simply tries to use NAFALT as an excuse, ask “What is your message to feminists who are like that?”

          Then you can test how prepared they are to publicly criticize crap feminists. In my case, I spent about a thousand comments criticizing crap feminists over at manboobz, and in a court case I brought against a university’s crap feminism department.

          Good feminism abounds. It’s not be as loud and as obnoxious as the crap stuff.

      • http://www.genderratic.com typhonblue

        I remember when you were advocating to change gender studies. Your twitter page was filled with abusive attacks against people challenging you.

        I wonder if you really want dialog or a fight?

        There may be feminists who are not hateful. But one has to wonder about someone who hears a theory that says ‘men oppress women for their own benefit’ and agrees with it.

        • Tom (cough) Martin

          Typhonblue, my favourite female MRA.

          I don’t agree with a theory which says men oppress women for their own benefit.

          “Patriarchy” is (91%) women electing men to positions of “dominance” (more accurately, prominence) to do women’s bidding. Read Aries, E. 1996 (Oxford) for meta analysis of experimental psychology findings on the subject.

        • Tom (cough) Martin

          The reply button isn’t working on your other comment so I’ll post it here then respond to it:

          You said:

          Can you be a feminist without believing in patriarchy theory? Once you remove a belief in patriarchy theory and male privilege, what’s left that’s even feminist? Find a group of feminists who don’t believe in patriarchy theory or male privilege.

          Okay Typhonblue, well there are a lot of liberal feminists whose main focus is on women being allowed and encouraged to do anything men do.

          There’s the Independent Women’s Forum, and i-feminists.

          There’s a handful of feminists who supported my lawsuit (although you cannot choose your donors – a good 30% of my supporters were swivel-eyed conservative loons).

          But most of all to me, there is one feminist in particular who does not believe in patriarchy theory but does believe in the benefits of some feminisms’ attempts to mobilize women to become more politically, economically and culturally active – and that feminist is me.

          It’s all very well for you or other women, typhonblue, slagging off all or most feminisms as bad – but when you’ve dated and screened thousands of women for potential dates, you get to realize, its the ones identifying as feminists who are the ones least likely to be gold-digging whores looking for an early retirement off the man’s toil.

          The subset of women who say they are not feminists, but not feminists because they think feminism asks too much of men or isn’t egalitarian enough towards men’s finances, is very small. The overwhelming majority of women who say they aren’t feminists, are saying it because they expect men to put a ring on it.

          I follow the money, which is why I am a feminist MRA.

          The money the state disproportionately allots to over-screechy victim-feminist wheels is wrong, and needs to be fixed, but pales into insignificance compared to the over-screechiness an anti-feminist traditionalist woman has lined up for any man unlucky enough to cohabit with her. A feckless housewife wannabe is far more a financial burden than an ill-informed egalitarian identifying as feminist who can be corrected on which sex owes the other money.

          • http://www.genderratic.com typhonblue

            ifeminism is apostate and has zero clout within the movement. In fact I think ifeminists would be more inclined to support anti-feminists over feminists in good standing, if memory serves. And I doubt that they would want to be used as a smokescreen to obscure the fact that big box feminism is rotten to its core.

            “It’s all very well for you or other women, typhonblue, slagging off all or most feminisms as bad ”

            If you’ve found feminists who don’t expect you to pay as a man, I know ones who _do_. Further big box feminism–which these women tacitly support–definitely does continue both child support and alimony as legal realities, _and_ is trying to get informal “breech of promise laws” back in place through draconian anti-rape initiatives.

            Also I “slag off” traditionalism as bad, or hadn’t you noticed? My beef is with gynocentrism entire, of which feminism is only one part.

  • Bewildered

    ” But one has to wonder about someone who hears a theory that says ‘men oppress women for their own benefit’ and agrees with it. ”

    Approved sexism !

    • Tom (cough) Martin

      10% of men in happy relationships DO boss women around, so could be described as the rare patriarchal exception to the matriarchal norm.

      • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

        “”10% of men in happy relationships DO boss women around,…”

        Is that All Women – Some Women – One Woman? The 10% is so precise I’m amazed that the precision of rhetoric did not proceed beyond the percentage mark!

        Do you have source for the 10%?

        • Tom (cough) Martin

          Yes, there’s Murray Strauss, 1986, finding that in the USA, men had the final word on decisions within the couple on 10% of occasions, and there is another study which I have never been able to retrace from Harvard, around 2007, finding (as predicted) that women made 90% of decisions (in relationships categorized by the researchers as “happy”) (I can never find this study, so if it rings anyone’s bell, please reference it – I was sure it was on men’s news daily, but I’ve checked the archives and can’t find it there).

          I saw another study in passing which stated that when men are told what to do by their wives, they show no stress symptoms like increased heart rate or blood pressure – so it seems happily married men like being bossed, sadly.

          • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

            Sorry but I’m waiting for your clarity as to “All Women – Some Women – One Woman?”.

            Once I have that I’ll check to see if you’re Woozling Murray!

  • Tom (cough) Martin

    I’m waiting for my clarity on it too. The 2007 or so study’s intro on the men’s rights website described the major study as confirming what was already known about male/female power dynamics inside marriages within that field of research – that women told men what to do 90% of the time, making decisions, on the large and small issues, 90% of the time. I think it was Harvard, I think it was 2007, I think it was men’s news daily – the moral of the story being, if you see a juicy study, take note, because six years later, you might need to convince other people about it. The reason I didn’t take particular note, was, as I was somewhat new to the movement in 2007, and read the findings were uncontroversial, I didn’t bother noting them down, as I thought more findings like these came along like buses.

    • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

      “”10% of men in happy relationships DO boss women around,…”

      Is that All Women – Some Women – One Woman?

      When you’re ready! I know of a number of men who await your clarification as to your usage of “women”. As I said I’ll check Murray when you clarify your percentages – express and implied! P^)

      • Tom (cough) Martin

        In marriages mutually described as happy, the wife has the last say in 90% of decisions, from what I remember of the 2007ish study from Harvard – somebody out there knows the study I’m on about, as it was posted on a MRA site.

        • Peter Wright (Tawil)

          You dont happen to ave a link to that article, or a title do you? I’d like to have a look.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com Dr. F (Ian Williams)

          Yes, citation needed I reckon.

          • http://woozleeffect.wordpress.com iimnotmrabut

            I’m fascinated by that the generic nature of things – and “Happy marriage”.

            If the marriage is less than 100% happy it could all read so differently and we may have found all the missing man stats on partner abuse. Imagine it…. 90% of men henpeck and abused by partner into doing what partner wants! P^)

  • Tom (cough) Martin

    Nope. I spent an hour looking for it previously and couldn’t find it. Googling around I found the Murray Strauss 1986 study confirming roughly the same thing I’d remembered about the 2007 study I was actually looking for, namely the 90/10 split between women bossing and men bossing marriages.

  • Bewildered

    ” 90/10 split between women bossing and men bossing marriages. ”

    No wonder marriages are failing left right and centre. You just can’t escape gynocentrism it seems.
    If women like this state of affairs then they are better off keeping cats,dogs or some exotic pets instead of marrying.

  • Roderick Roderick

    Mediation went well. Pointless to complain anymore.
    Rod here from London permanently signing out. Bye.

    • Near Earth Object

      I am glad to here that the mediation went well.

      Take care brother.

  • Drex

    Tell em how it is Tom, though of course they won’t listen.. Rod, did Andy attend?

    • Tom (cough) Martin

      I’ll be telling them how it is in my next documentary, not here. Subscribe to my youtube channel, called sexismbusters, or on twitter, @sexismbusters.

  • Drex

    I respect those who get out and do the face to face stuff 1000% more than those who would rather hide behind their laptop and churn out endless farticles (most of which are just repeating the same old same old, if not just blatant copies..). I don’t care much for labels, you may be a “feminist” I may be a “patriarch” but we can agree to differ while progressing common interests in the campaign against misandry. Men aught to support other men in the many ways we can do this.. I have seen you getting out on the streets and getting media.. Good man Tom..

    • Tom (cough) Martin

      Thank you Drex. I’m now in pre-production for a documentary, which does involve getting out there again, to carry out a bit of research on the street, to get to some new knowledge.

      This website is a bit too wacko for my liking. I know this because when I come here I get called ‘a leftist’. Mind you, Bern Chapin and Rocking Mr E are even more out there than AVFM, the pair of them incapable of forming a sentence about someone they disagree with without calling them ‘a leftist’…

      “Leftist [insert any word you like here to win the argument]”

      When was the last time someone tried to dismiss genetically and socially conservative MRA positions by calling it “rightism”?

      “Yeah, but you’re rightists, so I definitely win the argument.”

      Stop doing it you freaks!